>preferring this to OOTnostalgia goggles
It’s the worst 2D Zelda
>>9280379There are legitimate reasons to prefer each game and if you don't know what they are your IQ is probably below room temperature.
2D > 3D
>>9280379Dickriding OoT is the peak of nostalgiafaggotry. Fact is it just ain't that fun
>>9280386Couldn't disagree more, I like a game that engages my senses>>9280391Best 3D adventure game, besides perhaps its sequel or Kingdom Hearts 1
>>9280379the last zelda game. 3d zeldas marked the birth of an entirely new franchise, built from the ground up for women and transexuals.
>>9280379I do too. It is better in my opinion. I played it when it came out. Then years later played ocarina of time when it came out. Never enjoyed ocarina of time
>>9280413>you must share my taste in order to be a manbro you're just old
>>9280403Best 3D adventure game? Hyrule Field is empty. There's few sidequest and even fewer worth your while. There's 3 really good dungeons and the rest are meh at best. Game is deadshit boring until you get the Master Sword. Most NPC's serve zero purpose and you can't even kill them. The story is less fleshed out that the manual of Super Mario Bros. The combat is even worse than Metroid Prime. It's definitely better than Majora's Mask but not any other 3D Zelda, let alone Mega Man Legends, Kingdom Hearts as you said, any Elder Scrolls, any Metroid Prime etc. OoT just ain't that fun dude
>>9280379If OoT is so good, how come there's no OoT 2
>>9280431It actually has a good amount of content for one playthrough. Getting the skulltulas, heart pieces, and biggoron sword occupies a reasonable amount of time without wearing you down. Actually needs a bit more signposting for the latter two, in my opinion.>Mega Man LegendsWorse in every aspect that you mentioned. I love the game but it needed an extra layer of content.>Elder ScrollsNice quest writing but the gameplay loop is absolutely barren>Metriod PrimePretty good but it could have used a few more gameplay mechanics to keep it feeling dynamic.
>>9280382That's Minish Cap by far, but second worst, yes. (And yet still an amazing game)
>>9280443I hate Skulltulas>MML is worse in every aspectThe story is better because it actually has characters for one thing, and for another it has plot. The NPC's are all great, there's no empty Hyrule Field, and the game is fun>Gameplay loop is barrenSmithing shit, blasting shit with spells, actually having to aim your now and accounting for gravity, etc is more fun than shooting an eye, pushing a stone, or playing Zelda's lullaby to progress>Metroid PrimeYeah the combat is awful. Why didn't they put aiming on the c-stick? Nu-Doom is closer to 2D Metroid combat than Prime is
>>9280379LTTP was a better 2D Zelda game
>>9280431I just tried Mega Man Legends recently but got filtered by the controls. 5-10 minutes into the game I was already way more engaged than Ocarina, in fact the whole concept of flying around an ocean world looking for treasure holds a ton of appeal to me. But it was just a bit too awkward. (Also Roll's voice is kind of annoying and Mega Man's voice is ridiculously childish, but I probably could get used to that)
>>9280482>>9280458>no empty Hyrule Field>5-10 minutes into the game I was already way more engaged than OcarinaI don't know what you guys are smoking, there's jack shit to do at the start of MMLegends, the overworld is entirely pointless besides being a set-piece for a cinematic combat piece (least enjoyable aspect of the game imo) and to pad out the time before you get to another opening of the single interconnected dungeon. >Smithing shit, blasting shit with spells, actually having to aim your now and accounting for gravityDoesn't stand up to repeated playthroughs as well in my opinion but to each their own
>>9280379>nostalgia gogglesI'll be brutally honest and say, pretty much, yeah. I missed out on ALttP back in the day (I played almost every other staple SNES game back then, but just never got around to this one in particular for whatever reason) and ended up playing LA and OoT first, and it underwhelmed me once I finally got around to it a result. It's a great, highly polished game, mind you, but it really strikes me as a game for which you had to be there at the time to really appreciate it, and yes, I readily admit this applies to OoT as well.
>>9280514aaaaand I'm fucking retarded and misread it thinking you were saying nostalgia goggles apply to those who prefer OoT to it. Disregard that whole post, I suck cocks.
>>9280403>game2D > 3D
>>9280525Call them interactive art pieces if it satisfies you, although most games which voluntarily call themselves that are snoozefests
>>9280486>I don't know what you guys are smoking, there's jack shit to do at the start of MMLegendsYou start off in a dungeon fighting enemies. The very first thing that happens is you engage in some core gameplay. In Ocarina you wake up and wander around the village doing nothing.I didn't even get past the part where the ship crashes. I don't know how MML progresses, again I dropped it because I didn't like the controls and combat enough. But with Ocarina, it was like fucking 30+ minutes before I even get a taste of combat.Again I'm not saying MML is better than Ocarina but I am saying that I found Ocarina boring.I'm currently playing Neutopia and while I have some... gripes (pic-related) I love the way the game just dives right into combat and exploration, like the original NES Legend of Zelda.
>>9280514>it really strikes me as a game for which you had to be there at the time to really appreciate it, and yes, I readily admit this applies to OoT as well.The main difference is that you can fire up ALTTP and get into the action very quickly. After 1-2 hours of playing, you'll probably be fairly close to gaining access to the Dark World and the meatier second phase of the game, unless you get really confused and lost or something. With Ocarina you probably won't have even reached Dodongo's cavern after 2 hours, having spent most of that time puttering around Hyrule talking to NPCs, cutting grass, rounding up chickens, throwing bombs into buckets, and otherwise not doing anything that involves a modicum of risk or challenge.
>>9280632>puttering around Hyrule talking to NPCs, cutting grass, rounding up chickens, throwing bombs into bucketsGod I just finished it a couple of days ago but you make me want to boot it up again this very instant. I think for me personally the light hearted slice-of-life stuff enhances the flavor of the overall experience. I don't want to jump right into the unseasoned game mechanics right away.
>>9280590>I didn't even get past the part where the ship crashes. I don't know how MML progressesIn order>cutscene establishing the setting, player can explore (but the only spot to go at this point is really towards town)>interaction with various NPCs (which will play into one of MML's strengths of Cattleox feeling like a living location)>simple quest to into small side dungeon>more NPC interaction and town exploring>ACTION MISSIONS fighting air pirates in the town section you just explored (and collateral damage is a possible thing playing into a mechanic shortly after where you can help the town rebuild after the attacks)
>>9280632Yes, the biggest weakness of OoT, at least in repeated playthroughs, is definitely the beginning all the way up to Dodongo's Cavern. It's slow paced and feels like you're just doing tutorials and fetch quests. It picks up after that, as there's just a couple of things to do before going inside Jabu Jabu, and once you become an adult, the kid gloves are finally off and you can do all kinds of things and in almost any order with few forced obstacles. And it's still miles better than the 3D games after that, which take FOREVER to really start and makes subsequent playthroughs a complete chore.
>>9280590>NeutopiaNever seen this and I've spent a lot of time searching for zelda clones. Music and graphics look refreshing , might have to give it a download
>>9280642Right, it boils down to a matter of taste.I get bored as fuck trying to play Ocarina of Time. I wasn't too impressed by it back in 1998/1999 when I played on a friend's N64, and trying to play it now is a massive slog through the boring early game.I understand that you have nostalgia for it but that's really my point. With ALTTP it's really about whether you like the core gameplay or not. You can assess quickly and then move on if it's not to your taste. With Ocarina, it's about whether you have enough nostalgiagoggles to enjoy the feels and the atmosphere you get from the walking simulator and 3D minigames; or at least the drive to blow through it because you know the later game will be worth it.>I don't want to jump right into the unseasoned game mechanics right away.Exactly. Ocarina is a game with unseasoned mechanics and since the devs lacked confidence in combat/etc, they're relegated to minor occasional events to spice up the immersive simulation instead of something you can practice and get good at.
I prefer this over any of them.
>>9280669Heh. My point was that the art, music, idyllic setting, and banal side quests WAS the seasoning but I'll concede your point that ALttP is better if you really like the combat and puzzles the most.>>9280673See this goes too far in the opposite direction for me with OOT being a sweet-spot between ALttP and WW. Still love it but I think it's light on the puzzles
>>9280656I have only beaten the first 2 dungeons but it's definitely the closest Zelda clone I've ever played that wasn't a straight-up hack of LoZ.I would say that it's largely inferior, but is still pretty fun. (The Fire Wand helps enormously).Music is good, and so far I'd say bosses seem cooler than LoZ's bosses.Basically Neutopia cloned the Zelda format, missed some fundamentals a bit. Jezeta's sprite is too big (about 40% bigger than Link) and his head is vulnerable when you stab (see the picture above of the bat about to eat his face because I missed a stab). Also he's slightly more sluggish in his movement and sword stabs. This makes the combat a little more frustrating than LoZ, though it's not a huge deal.There are also some minor details that suggest programming shortcomings. The auto-map that tells you which rooms in the dungeon you've visited gets reset once you leave the dungeon, for example. Projectile attacks get blocked by enemy loot drops sitting on the field, which can be annoying.
>>9280656fwiw I'm playing it on BizHawk 2.8
>>9280710>>9280715Thanks anon, still sounds like its worth a try
>>9280673The game that made me quit Zelda.
2D>3DThis is a factThe golden age of games is when games were 2D
>>9280764I'd say so
Childhood is idolizing 3D ZeldaAdulthood is realizing 2D Zelda makes more sense
>>9280710yeah you fight that golem, goy
>>9280449nah, Minish cap is leagues better then Alttp
>>9280689I have played and owned every Zelda game as a kid and teen. They were my siblings games though. I liked them enough, and beat most of them. But Wind Waker is the one I actually enjoyed the most. I could not put the controller down. Even just mindlessly sailing around when I wasn't sure what to do next was just peak comfy. Anyways sorry, not trying to hijack the thread or anything.>>9280767I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it anon.
>>9280382This.>>9280449I want whatever you’re smoking.
>>9280868I wasn't won over by OoT or Majora's Mask either, so Wind Waker was the third strike because it was just OoT all over again but even easier.
>>9280482I can deal with janky controls if I'm doing cool stuff with them, also Roll's voice actress is a babe>>9280486OoT starts when you reach the Forest Temple (so a bigger time investment than most JRPG's) and even then it pales in comparison to the other adult dungeons. MML starts immediately.
Preferring it the GB Zeldas is nostalgia goggles. They all do the concept better.ALLTP is the most awkward phase for the Zelda franchise. It's not as interesting or challenging as the original two, but it also doesn't make up for it by having much of a story or good characters. It's just kind of there. It's a game I've had fun playing, but I don't really want to return to it. You can't even do three hearts runs, so replayability is very limited.
>>9280431Why do haters always use the same talking points that happen to be in fashion at the moment. Are they bots designed just to keep us posting?
>>9280431>Most NPC's serve zero purpose and you can't even kill themyou almost got me typing a reply until thisgood bait man, actually pretty good bait
>>9280431Hyrule Field being empty is a meme. Hardly any of the game takes place in Hyrule Field. Even the Gerudo Desert is more relevant as an area where you have to do shit.>Most NPC's serve zero purpose and you can't even kill them.Oh. This is bait.
>>9281628>>9281630In Elder Scrolls and Fallout you can kill NPC's you don't like and no game has given me a bigger bloodlust than OoT. At least in Animal Crossing you can bully other villages but in OoT you're fucked. Compare that to BotW where if you swing a sword at an NPC they will say ouch, though I like the NPC's there more
>>9281640You have anger issues.
>>9281620NO! I DON'T WANT THAT! PEOPLE TAKING ISSUE WITH THE GAME'S GAPING WOUNDS? I WANT THEM TO IDIOSYNCRATICALLY BITCH ABOUT IRRELEVANT NITPICKS! FOR TEN MORE YEARS, AT LEAST!
>>9281645In my imo the real anger issues are people who don't get angry.
>>9281646Complaining about Hyrule Field is pretty much a nit-pick. You may as well get upset at garden in front of Princess Peach's Castle being empty. It's kind of supposed to be.What do you want? Do you want every corner of the map filled with dungeon design, and for it to not feel like a Zelda game because there's no organic sense of traversing a world? Because that's Skyward Sword.
>>9281662Overworlds don't have to be empty. Hell, even Nintendo themselves realized how bad it was and designed Termina Field to be much less empty
>>9281695Hyrule field isn't the overworld though. It's the middle section of the overworld that connects all of the other sections. OOT's overworld isn't empty. It's got towns, forests, a castle, a lake, a desert, hidden caves and tombs you can enter, a river trail, a mountain trail. It's pretty standard Zelda in that regard. The Terminia field is a little better, I guess, as you would expect from a sequel, but it's not as night and day as people want to pretend it is. They mostly just placed a few logs around, and made it smaller.
>>9281719From what we have access to of the OoT prototype the original Hyrule Field would've resembled Terminia way more. With the castle in the center with four exits. I'm guessing they redesigned it so it would be more vast and impressive.
>>9281983I think Hyrule Field mostly exists the way it does so you can have that initial moment of leaving the Kokiri Forest, and being unleashed on this world that feels huge and freeing, but also imposing. It's more a storytelling consideration than it is strictly a gameplay one, and I'm fine with that. You don't have to keep going back there, once you get past that initial early part of the game. They included the warps for that reason.
>>9281662>it's supposed to be bad
>>9282351It's not "bad". It's pacing.
>>9281719OoT's overworld isn't empty but it isn't exciting either, if your standards are based on the 2d Zeldas that came before. Hyrule field is just the easy obvious thing for lazy critics to point at
>>9281620Because most who don't like it have similar reasons why. And it always comes up because fanbabies are reliably astounded to learn some doesn't love ocarina as much as they did when they were 10.
>>9280386this but 3D > 2D
>>9281617Alttp is a really well made game with great mechanics and content, though. My main gripes are pretty minor and mostly relate to the size and layout of the world.
>>9280431>Hyrule Field is emptywhy do you niggers always go to that when you attempt to deride OoT anyway?what is it supposed to be full of as opposed to empty?or is it supposed to be sprinkled with a little of this or that, because it totally is btw obviously, lots of secrets and a sidequestthe damn field is a juncture to other areas, which are littered with content tooyou get a fucking horse to speed around on, what the fuck is Hyrule Field supposed to be that it somehow isn't, retard?
>>9282360Its a pacing misstep. Too far in the wrong direction
>>9282472Not really. Hyrule field is like a minute's walk in each direction, and you have to spend barely any time there.
>>9280442What the fuck do you think Majora’s Mask was?
>>9281695kekTermina Field is just Hyrule Field again, you stupid nigger
>>9282447>you get a fucking horse to speed around onhalfway through the game ROFL
>>9282749when you first get to hyrule field you go straight down the road to hryule casltethen when you leave castletown you go right over the bridge to kakarikothen when you leave the village you head right down the riverand then when you're done there you go right to the castle and that's "half" the game apparently, and it marks when you can use your horsegetfuckedrotflmaoaotflm
>>9282703It takes less time to go clear across the world map in alttp. Granted, the alttp map is too small, but the contrast really highlights the inherent bloat that comes with 3D games. In alttp you can engage with a variety of enemies in generally easy conditions, or you can evade them. This provides perfect opportunities to practice the combat mechanics if you want while remaining engaged with the game even when you are evading and exploring.OoT doesn't have this. You either get the annoying steam of skeletons at night, or nothing/peahat during the day. The connecting areas don't really give real combat practice either. Just a couple of tiny encounters here and there.
>>9282760straight down the road doing nothing for 2 minutesspend a minute to get to the kakariko route doing nothingThis ain't no GTA countryside where you have pretty visuals, a car that might get destroyed, and The Who to tend to; you're just wasting time. OoT's introduction way overstays its welcome given it is mundane as fuck and – contrary to your description – doesn't merely last a few minutes.
I'm getting into ALttP for the first time and although I prefer Ocarina, it is absolutely true that ALttP has a denser overworld with better rewards for exploring right off the bat . I'm looking at you Megaman Legends >:[ Something else that it does better is NOT showering you with items every time you cut some grass. Ocarina has a huge problem with trivializing shops and rupees by filling your ammo stocks to the brim every time you walk past a bush. Crazy how ALttP has a functional rupee sink while Ocarina fucks it all up
>>9282964MML is dense
>>9282968It gets better late game but the early game is absolutely sparse
>>9282974Early game you immediately have cool NPC's and visuals, unless Ur talking about gear, but in my imo progression is a personal thing not a skill tree or whatever
>>9282828>It takes less time to go clear across the world map in alttp.what a bold faced lie
I complete this at 2020. And OoT 3D with 1080 retexture last week. LttP is way more harder, complex. Puzzles Ocarina for kids, I solved it in 1 game sessio, but Link make you think.
>>9283016>Link make you thinkwhat did he mean by this
>>9283021Puzzles in late dungeons. I couldn't solve ice dungeon, I droped first ice block from upper floor, but dont think about second.I couldnt find megabombs
>>9283027In OOT, Jabu Jabu's belly takes some thought as far as backtracking with Ruto, leaving her in the correct position and jumping down the sphincters, fire temple has some challenging platforming races, forest temple is quite confusing to navigate and to figure out which mechanics to use. The rest are pretty easy, yes the water temple is an easy dungeon fuck off. I still need to beat ALttP to see what you're talking about
>>9283037You played it in childhood? For child all games harder. In my childhood I played only ocarina clones like harry potter 1,2 ps1 and Hobbit. And after Lttp I thinked original game will be soooo better. But its just fine. Game has first 3d openworld, but its pretty simple. Only hard dungeons are Jabu Jabu, Cementry (both) and Gerudo Colossus and trials. Ganon castle is disapppointment, but long boss fight is awesome. 2/3 game too easy, other temples I solved on weed.
Maybe I am too old for games in 27
>>9283064I played it as a teenager but my opinion is from when I played as an adult. I basically forgot all of the puzzles and nuances of the mechanics
>>9282991I invite you to post webms proving me wrong. Because even if I'm a little off on the exact number of seconds, you will prove my main point beyond any reasonable doubt.
>>9280379ALTTP lets you explore and do things at your own pace. If there's somewhere you can't yet go, it's typically because you need an item/ability you haven't acquired yet. In OOT (and even more in later 3D games) you constantly get cockblocked by tedious bullshit that serves no purpose but to pad out the game and prevent you from getting to the good bits like dungeons that you want to do
>>9283420That has nothing whatsoever to do with the point. We're comparing the time it takes to cross hyrule field in OoT with the time it takes to cross the map in ALTTP.
Do OoT fans find the game fun, or just fascinating?
>>9280857>>9280878All the Capcom Zelda games suck.
>>9280710if you want something even closer copy, play golden axe warrior on master system
>>9280379oot may be better than alttp overall but alttp randomizer is better than oot randomizer
>>9280382I think I could get on board with this idea. I don't like the pacing of the game, I always get bored of it halfway through the Dark World.
>>9280382Totally wrong, but here's your attention.
>>9284145Sure. The combat is satisfying. The world is quirky and pleasant. There's a lot of good bossfights and scripted sequences. The weaker part is probably the puzzle design, which is very peg A into hole B, but then I have dissected the game so fully over the years, I may have just ruined that part of it for myself. Something like learning you can use fire to burn spider webs for the first time was really cool, but now I already know the solution to that part of the game, so it's not as fun to do on repeat playthroughs. That's kind of an adventure game problem in general though.
>preferring a game with good gameplay to a fucking 3d goddamn disaster on a shit console with a fucking laughable controller>preferring either to the original Zelda, the only good Zelda game ever madeI swear, kids. Learn what makes a good game.
>>9284469ALTTP gameplay isn't that good. Zelda games are games you play for the adventure. The actual combat is awkward and mashy. If you want a good top down action game you want to play Smash TV or something.
>>9284475Better than awkward as fuck 3d shit gameplay, which was my actual fucking point.LttP was still boring storyshit with tons of pretentious crap bolted on. It never got better than the original Zelda game.
>>9284482>never got better than the original Zelda gameBotW?
>>9284524Shit with awkward controls and lousy gameplay. Also off-topic here.
>>9284540I can say your claim that "it never got better than the original Zelda" is off-topic since it is blatantly wrong for reasons I just gave
>>9284482Nah, OOT swordplay is more satisfying. Sound design plays into that a lot admittedly, It feels really good to hit things in OOT.
>>9284579>OoT swordplay is more satisfying Wow, thanks for the heads up then, I'll take LttP off my list
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWZs0bV685A>juicy satisfying hit soundshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4oxVYYMQAE>hits making sounds like a muffled fart
Shit thread but I’ll reply anyways. I never really got the point of comparing the 2D and 3D Zelda games as if they do the same things. They play completely differently. I can’t really bring myself to prefer one style over the other since they’re such different experiences. I just like them both.
>>9284616I'm not even sure ALTTP is a particularly good 2D Zelda is the thing though. I think the GB games completely improved on the formula.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSpXsEnqDnELink's Awakening combat, way more satisfying. Your sword is big and fat, and hit sounds are pure sex. Good stuff.
>>9284623I wouldn’t go as far to call A Link to the Past bad; I really liked that game. I even replayed it for the first time in ages recently and had lots of fun. I did like Link’s Awakening more back then, though.
>>9284627I didn't say it was bad. It's maybe the Zelda game I feel the most lukewarm about though. It's the trend setter. It's the most cookie cutter Zelda. It's less interesting and experimental than the first two, and it's less refined than the later ones in a lot of ways. It's just fine, really.
>>9284630It did play it pretty safe; I’ll give you that. I still think it was a very well-made game. Very polished in my opinion, and I liked the story and setting a lot.
>>9280379Zelda died when it went 3DChange my mindYou can't
>>9284669sure3D Zelda games are still being made so it hasn't diedwell that was easy
>>9284669https://desuarchive.org/vr/search/text/died%20when%20it%20went%203d/you died initially when you started spamming this shit last yearchange my mindyou can't
they both suckfor me its links awakening
>>9284581Lttp mechanics are really one of the best for 2d top-down sword games. Don't know what that retard is smoking. Don't take it off your list until you have tried it, it's really not comparable to 3d zelda.
>>9284475Alttp combat is excellent. Seems like we have a lot of tards in this thread. if I have time today I might have to spoonfeed some shit to you fags. "Mashy" lol what kind of criticism is that?
>>9284884It feels like you're spastically flailing your sword around. There's no real weight to it. It doesn't do a lot for me.
>>9284202It's on the list I have just always had bad luck emulating sega systems for some reason.
>>9284893I'm gonna disagree there, in fact ALttP is the only 2D Zelda game I know where your sword actively stops against things you hit, you can feel it the most when you hit those thick shelled octopus bastards.
>>9284894use a megadrive emulator
>>9284893>muh feelsIt's very crisp and precise. Link can hold out his sword in a position that is simultaneously offensive and defensive, and that charges the spin move. This means the player has several different approaches to combat before even considering subweapons. Link has a bigger sprite and moves more slowly than in the original Zelda so his arcing sword strike is important to prevent situations like this >>9280590. It's also fast because there's still a few frames of vulnerability per swing and too many of those would get frustrating.
>>9284912Every one I've tried has crashed, and I had better things to do than keep trying other emulators. I think bizhawk can do it but I'm going to finish neutopia first.
>>9284941jesus, what sort of potato are you emulating on
>>9285043Every other emulator I've used (except zsnes) works fine, including shit like pcsx2 and 6th gen emulators. Fusion is the only one I have trouble with.
>>9280379Both are masterpieces that offer a different enough experience. It really only comes down to preference as to which you prefer more. Personally I like them both pretty equally, maybe LttP a tiny bit more, but that changes as frequently as I change underwear.
This board has gone to shit since the rule change.
>>9280379At least it has better graphics than OOT
>>9285243True, but Zelda threads were bad long before the rule change.
>>9285281I guess if you’re easily butthurt about Zelda or something, but OP is obviously offended that someone might prefer a game that released before he was born in a favela.
>>9284616The only one I typically compare/contrast is Ocarina, specifically because it was the first one so it was reasonable to have expectations derived from the 2D games. Basically when Ocarina came out, I had my own vision of what a 3D Zelda game might be like and it was much closer to "2D zelda in 3D" than what Ocarina actually turned out to be. This comes up when kids who grew up with Ocarina discover that I found the game disappointing, and I sometimes wind up highlighting the details.
>>9285534You too? I remember when I expressed disappointment at how action and challenge was taking a backseat to other things in the 3D games, and missed how you could just go into a room and there would be a load of hard enemies waiting for you.A friend responded "More enemies? You want Dynasty Warriors Zelda!"
>>9285554Yeah what I wanted was something more like Dark Souls with Zelda-style equipment and overworld design.In the classic Zeldas, the overworld is basically a "dungeon-lite" where the combat is easier, the stakes are lower and you have easier access to resource-replenishment spots like fairies and so on. Ocarina avoids putting much combat in the overworld so players don't get stressed out and hassled while having their minds blown by the 3D world exploration. And to be fair, the Ocarina combat demands a lot more attention than ALTTP combat, so it was a reasonable concern.But it was still disappointing to me.
>>9280767For me that was Twilight Princess
>>9284186Oracles were godlyMinish Cap is an unfinished masterpiece (still the weakest 2D Zelda)
>>9280403Some 2D games engage my senses than some 3D games.
>>9286082>Oracles were godlyNo, they're trash. My biggest complaint with them is how much they punish exploration and problem solving with overly-strict sequences that rely upon triggering very specific flags in a certain order.For example, in Oracle of Ages if you explore around the past you'll stumble on an inventor, Cheval, who's working on some kind of special rope; you'll also hear people talking about his grave in the present day and someone mentions he was buried with his inventions. Later on, in the present, you need some rope to build a raft. If you're paying attention, like I was, you might think, "Oh, there was that inventor making rope in the past and I heard something about his grave, I'll head over there!" but when you get there the grave is completely inaccessible due to long stretches of bottomless pits.So then you go to Cheval's house (in the present) and don't find anything, back to his grave, still inaccessible. I wandered around for over an hour trying to figure out what the fuck I was supposed to do until I just looked it up. The key is that you have to go talk to Cheval in the past ONLY AFTER TRIGGERING THE RAFT BUILDING SIDEQUEST and then when you return to the present and visit his house AGAIN a character appears FOR NO REASON to tell you to go to Cheval's grave AND THEN when you do you meet the flying panda who can get you over those pits to access Cheval's grave.Mind you, when you visit Cheval in the past he doesn't say anything different, you don't help him gather materials for his rope, nothing like that. It's just purely arbitrary, punishing you for getting information early and forcing you to go through a bunch of specific arbitrary motions a second time that you would never think to do a second time. That kind of thing is all over the Oracles games and it pisses me off so much, you just have to go from waypoint to waypoint when you're told and any extra exploration is bad, in a fucking ADVENTURE game.
>>9285534>Basically when Ocarina came out, I had my own vision of what a 3D Zelda game might be like and it was much closer to "2D zelda in 3D" than what Ocarina actually turned out to be.>>9285697>In the classic Zeldas, the overworld is basically a "dungeon-lite" where the combat is easier, the stakes are lower and you have easier access to resource-replenishment spots like fairies and so on. Ocarina avoids putting much combat in the overworld so players don't get stressed out and hassled while having their minds blown by the 3D world exploration. And to be fair, the Ocarina combat demands a lot more attention than ALTTP combat, so it was a reasonable concern.Both very fair points. My perspective on these games admittedly comes from someone who played Wind Waker first, then A Link to the Past and then Ocarina of Time. I didn't have expectations for what a 3D Zelda game would entail because the formula already existed by the time I started playing the series.I think Breath of the Wild gets close to delivering on the overworld being a dungeon-lite in 3D, but it unfortunately has the worst dungeons in the whole series and the combat leaves a little to be desired.
Fuck you Dark World>Normal HyrulePig Ganon>GanondorfThe Hero of Time was killed before A Link To the Past so SNES Link is superior
>>9286115Yeah that's cool, but Ages had a cool villain, mother fucking skeleton pirates, and lets you be stranded on an island again but with lizard people.
Ocarina of Time is the reason why Ganondorf is a shitty clone in Smash.People wanted Ganon but OoTniggers had to butt in with their recency bullshit so Sakurai prioritized OoT as the face of Zelda representation in Melee.
>>9286221you sound like a retarded child
>>9286224he's not a clone anymore, they gave him his sword as a weapon and not just a tauntthat said classic ganon would've been real cool
>>9286230and you sound like a fun hating sperg.
>>9286251>he's not a clone anymore>reskinned Cloud/Ike Smashes>revert his down special animation to be more like Falcon>none of his Smash 4 custom moves got inherited like Zelda's up special did (has a windbox)>It's still fucking Spaceworld Ganondorf for some reason.Once again, OoT fanboys and OoT shilling ruined everything for Ganon in Smash. Even managed to fuck over TPfags by taking away all the good shit he had in Smash 4 for Melee nostalgia in Ultimate.
>>9286318well he's not a clone of one person at least ig idk i don't play him
>>9286357He still plays like heavier falcon overall.
>>9280379I first played OOT when I was 6. Probably beat it when I was 10. I played and beat LTTP when I was 18. LTTP is superior in every way.
>>9286115>game sucks because you have to talk to npc when you need himyou're fucking dumb
>>9287080I don't think you understand, the NPC doesn't do anything except tell you that his life's work is to make a special rope, no matter when you talk to him. That's it, a purely text-based clue to the player and literally nothing more. Because of the way time travel works in the game, you already know that the rope is buried with him in his grave; you know Cheval can never give you the rope while he's alive, so once you know all that you never need to visit him again. But when you get to the point in the game where you need the rope, you MUST follow these steps, no matter if you've done them before or not:>talk to Cheval in the past (he gives you nothing)>visit Cheval's home in the present (you find nothing)Then and ONLY THEN will the game believe that you are worthy to receive the arbitrary NPC who appears outside and tells you to go to Cheval's grave in the cemetery, WHICH YOU ALREADY KNEW TO DO BECAUSE THE NPCS ALREADY FUCKING TOLD YOU BUT THIS TIME IT'S TRIPPING INVISIBLE FLAGS IN THE CODE SO NOW IT COUNTS SO YOU CAN GET THE STUPID SCRIPTED EVENT WITH MOOSH.It's seriously fucking stupid. The game punishes you for exploring, learning, remembering, and problem-solving. Stop straying from the path, just go exactly where we tell you exactly when we tell you! You're led around by the nose in those games the entire time from beginning to end and if you deviate from that in any way you'll end up breaking the progression because you won't do things in the perfectly intended order to trigger all the stupid scripted events that the games rely so fucking heavily on for some reason.
>>9287136I agree, arbitrarily sequenced events that aren't supported by legitimate mechanical necessity are shit. Its one thing if you're blocked off from the area so you can use reason to figure out that you need to go somewhere else but simply requiring an extra conversation is stupid. Both OOT (must talk to the scarecrow in the past AND future to activate his song) and LTTP (must return to the old guy after the first dungeon to acquire necessary item) do this btw but to a far lesser degree.
>>9286160this post made me realize that the second part of Ocarina of Time is basically just the Dark World
>>9281630Yeah, I never thought of Hyrule Field being a problem until I heard people online complain about it. And there is stuff to find there if you’re willing to look for it. Hunting ghosts there as adult is how you get one of the bottles.
>>9287503I'm fine with there being some scripting when it's needed, obviously you sometimes have to trigger things in a certain order. The problem with Oracles is that example I provided is just one that happens very early on and it's not the last time it happens by far. Your two examples aren't nearly as egregious because they're logically supported and make sense unlike in Oracles where it's literally just arbitrary, "oops, you got that hint too early, go get the hint again and then act like a retard by visiting his house a second time in the present instead of going straight to the cemetery like it's obvious to do," and it's even worse if you explored his house in the present before the past because you KNOW there won't be an item there so why would you visit it again? How would you know some scripted NPC would pop up this time to arbitrarily trigger another scripted event on another screen you already visited several times before?For the scarecrow, you have to teach him your custom song in the past and then play it for him again in the future to remind him of who you are, makes sense and is easy to track and experiment with.For the old man, you went to him to basically start your quest and get guidance so it makes sense to check back in with him after doing the first dungeon he sends you to; it's pretty common in that type of game to check back in with that kind of mentor-like NPC after each major event to see what they say.
>>9287534Hunting ghosts is literally all there is to do on the field.
>>9287539>For the old man, you went to him to basically start your quest and get guidance so it makes sense to check back in with him after doing the first dungeon he sends you to; it's pretty common in that type of game to check back in with that kind of mentor-like NPC after each major event to see what they say.He outright tells you to come back and speak with him after completing the first dungeon to get a crucial item.
>>9287540>Hunting ghosts is literally all there is to do on the field.there's enemies to fight in child timeline, the running man, 10 secret holes, the ghosts, pink fairy spots, and a few minor secrets like the hidden red rupees on the drawbridge. it's also a good place to stock up on items and the trees drop specific item types that others dont when you roll into them. it could've used a couple of enemies at night time during the adult sequence but aside from that there was still a fair amount to do for a place that you don't even need to visit again after the first 1/3 of the game.
>>9282447Not that anon, but I think Hyrule Field could do with a bit more enemy variety, personally. As I recall. There were only the Peahats and the Stalchildren at night, then as an adult there were a few Poes but the other enemies were gone.Either way, I love Ocarina of Time, but I can see why people dislike Hyrule Field. Termina Field was a lot better on that front for sure.
>>9280379You geeks that compare 2D to 3D are retarded. They are too different so they both offer very unique experience. It is okay to prefer one to the other but to be perplexed on why someone prefers one or the other makes you an ass.
>>9287582I just replayed the game recently and I think that's my only real issue with Hyrule Field as well. I would have liked to see some more enemies around as adult Link than just the Big Poes.I really don't think I agree with anybody who says it was empty, though. It serves its purpose as a big hubworld with access to every other area in the game.
>>9286508I genuinely wonder if people are aesthetically blind somehow to think ALTTP is better in every way. To compare the generic dungeons in ALTTP to a really interesting themed area like the Deku Tree, or to compare goofy blue cartoon pig Ganon, to legitimately scary looking demonic Ganon, and to come away thinking ALLTP is doing it better. I don't understand.
>>9287620>generic dungeons in ALTTPObjectively false. The dungeons in ALTTP have substantial variety both in theming, aesthetics, and mechanics (although it's true there are fewer unique mechanics per dungeon than OoT)>>9287583See conversation that begins here: >>9285534
>>9287136oh no i understand perfectly, i just think you're too uptight is all
>>9287647If you understand perfectly then you should understand why it's not as simple as just "talking to an NPC you need" and when such things happen several times through the duration of the game you might be able to understand why someone might be thoroughly upset by it, especially when people praise the game as being so good or better than other games in the series when it's just a shitty on-rails series of scripted events.
>>9287636>fewer unique mechanics per dungeon than OoTOh yeah in an OoT dungeon you'll have to slowly push blocks, shoot an arrow at an eye on the wall, play Zelda's lullaby, and using equipment you just found in this dungeon (to never be used again) to hit switches that you arbitrarily cannot hit with your existing equipment. Then, in the next dungeon you have to slowly push blocks, shoot an arrow at an eye on the wall, play Zelda's lullaby, and using equipment you just found in this dungeon (to never be used again) to hit switches that you arbitrarily cannot hit with your existing equipment. There's a lot of interesting mechanics at play and OoT always find a way to shake it up with something fresh. Frankly, it's just better paced than LttP as well.
>>9287620I thought both Ganon fights were really cool, honestly.Ganon's appearance in Four Swords Adventures kinda comes across as an amalgamation of those two boss fights, and I think it's the coolest Ganon fight in the entire series.
>>9287662they're mad that with knowledge from having played the game before they cannot sequence break, and don't say no that's not it, because that's what they laid outthe game wants them to investigate things in order and then go dig up the rope, who the fuck cares, if it's you then you are dumb
>>9287678It shouldn't even be considered a sequence break to avoid mundane, menial, unnecessary tasks that are absolutely theoretically possible to avoid.
>>9287678Anon, I was literally describing my first and only playthrough. I don't replay games often and I don't care about sequence breaking or whatever. What I care about is that I literally figured out what the game wanted me to figure out but I did it too early so I had to repeat a series of arbitrary steps at a later time within the same playthrough that changed nothing in order to prove to the game that I had gotten the clues that I already got earlier. They could have either relied less on arbitrary scripting or just prevented me from meeting Cheval "early" in the first place. But since the game let me explore and that exploration gave me all the clues and I remembered them I got slapped on the wrist and told to go do it all again because I read the text too soon.
>>9287692All I'm going to say is that the Oracle games are obnoxious with the excessive between-dungeon padding. At least in Link's Awakening, the worst it gets is when you have to escort Marin to the desert.
>>9287663I didn't say the mechanics were always interesting, just that there were more of them. A big theme in the design of OoT seems to be hard-coding mechanics to make the world feel like it's interactive. Eg lighting a deku stick on fire to burn a spiderweb. Of course it's only specific spider webs but to an 10 year old who has never played a 3D game besides Mario 64 and Shadows of the Empire, that'll be mind-blowing.
>>9280379OP has faggot goggles saying shit like nostalgia goggles.
>>9287905The post you're responding do is not a serious attempt to critique of pacing. The faggot just blandly claims that he doesn't like the pacing of alttp without any explanation of what he means. Which is important in the case of ALTTP since it's reasonable to assume it is a well-paced game.Ocarina, on the other hand, has gotten pacing criticism in this thread (not always using the word pacing), due to relatively low rate of serious gameplay challenges as Young Link. The early game in OoT involves a great deal of time just running around the world talking to NPCs and getting comfortable with the basic navigation mechanics. You can objectively measure rates of activity like hostile enemies encountered, bosses defeated, items found or character upgrades per hour.
>>9287932pseud opinion. the first thing AlttP has you do is look around for a hole under a busb in the rain. meanwhile in OoT, you can immediately explore the entirety of kokiri village or even fuck off into the lost woods and fight the wolf and deku scrubs before even getting a sword. you're in the first dungeon as quickly as you want to be, and when you leave and get access to hyrule field, you can go jist about anywhere. AlttP is not well-paced.
>>9287953OoT gets good after the Forest Temple
>>9287960you played it wrong
>>9287962I played it the only way there was to play it. Zelda ain't that deep there's a reason women like it
>>9287969>plays games women likelol faggot detected
>>9285171Weirdly same, Anon. Fusion runs but doesn't perform well on my machine, meanwhile I can get full speed on Wii/PS2 emulation.
>>9287932the pacing of OoT is godtier, you're always progressing in your quest
>>9287953This has nothing to do with pacing retard, this is just a question of linearity.In ALTTP it takes about 1 minute to listen to the opening dialog from Link's uncle and walk to the bush next to the castle. Maybe 2 minutes if you're really slow. In OoT, Link isn't even awake at the 2 minute mark, you're still watching the dream cutscene.You aren't even comparing elements at the proper scale. You aren't talking about pacing.
>>9288057This is not an assessment of pacing.Pacing involves the actual rates.
>>9288081i have no clue what you meant to convey
>>9280386This, but unironically, if true.
>>9280379I'm a quasi-zoomer who played OOT first and I prefer ALTTP although both games kick ass. Instead of a lazy, baseless ad hominem perhaps you could make an argument?
>>9287620Why do you think the comparison boils down to a subjective sense of "variety?" At the end of the day most of games' quality lies in their gameplay and there are strong arguments that ALTTP is better in that department.
>>9287620>>9288239Disregard, I that read wrong.>t. Idiot
>>9288097If you progress slowly that is slow pacing. If you progress quickly that is fast pacing. Saying that pacing is good or bad is typically a subjective indicaton of whether you liked the pace, but can have some additional objective criteria and standards.Either way, saying that you are always progressing says very little about pacing.
>>9280379It gets going faster so it's more fun to replay. Thinking about replaying OoT and I just give up on the long ass opening cutscene+tedious child link segment.
>>9288361i think you misunderstand, a good pace is one in which you progress at a good rate, and a bad pace is one where your progress at a slow rate. so to say something has good pacing and you're always progressing is to say it's not too slow.
>>9288383>>9288421try not letting the ADHD win, you'll be happier
>>9288421>i think you misunderstand, a good pace is one in which you progress at a good rate, and a bad pace is one where your progress at a slow rateYou're conflating subjectivity and objectivity (not to mention being vague about what progress even means.)We're also very far derailed from the original reason this came up is because some anon claimed he gave up alttp in the Dark world because of the pacing, but failed to explain himself. When pressed, some anon gave a nonsense irrelevant claim about relative linearity the introductions.Still, no one has made any argument against the pacing in ALTTP's Dark World. I can speculate about a couple of pacing-related arguments one could make, but they would not be typical/expected perspectives of a normal player so I'll leave it to someone else to make them. By most reasonable measures, ALTTP's Dark World is quite well-paced. If anything, the overworld is a little too small and getting from one dungeon to the next is a little too easy, making the pace a little faster than would be ideal for me. The dungeons themselves are a reasonable length, none of them drag on for too long. There are no tedious timesink tasks or lame story segments to interrupt the flow of the game.
>>9288658>You're conflating subjectivity and objectivityno, watching paint dry isn't entertaining Sir, i'm sorry
>>9288658>some anon claimed he gave up alttp in the Dark world because of the pacing, but failed to explain himself.what's to explain, it takes a while to get to that point, and then you're left to figure out where to go to and it's pretty non-linear.Ocarina of Time by comparison is always nudging you toward a linear sequence of events, it's masterfully paced.
>>9288097How much meaningful gameplay and dialogue is there per hour? After pushing blocks for an hour, and listening to every NPC in the gameworld suddenly and simultaneously all tell you where to go, you realise there ain't much going on. That's what is meant. I really want to know if OoT fans find the game fascinating, or actually fun
>>9288485>just fuck around for hours before the game gets funDon't call it ADHD if I can put up with a JRPG setting the stage for 18 hours if it is a compelling introduction
>>9288806of course the game is fun, i want more games that play like that. i've replayed it a lot, and i've enjoyed majora's mask, wind waker, twilight princess, ect.it'd be cool if there was yet more like that style. ocarina of time is a fantastic game.
>>9287953LttP's pacing problems have nothing to do with the opening, they have to do with how much the game drags as you slog through the Dark World. It's just too long and overstays its welcome.
>>9288239I would argue the main strength of Zelda has never really been gameplay. If you want games that have more satisfying second to second gameplay, those have always been there. Zelda has always been about the sense of adventure, making your way through these worlds. It's all of these little storybook narratives like going into a giant tree to fight a giant spider, following a ghost into a grave, and having to beat him in a race, getting captured by a band of thieves in the desert, and having to sneak around in their hideout, fighting a phantom who hides inside of paintings.If you want a good top down action game, Pocky and Rocky is way better than any Zelda in that department
>>9288839Dark world dungeon music is pretty lame too
>>9288839This is what needs to be explained because there's no obvious reason why any sane person should say the game "drags" in the Dark World. Unless maybe you are a storyfag who should be playing a visual novel or maybe a JRPG and not an action-adventure game.
>>9289549Adventure games are pretty much all about narrative. I'm not going to pretend they're not, just because that's a dirty word in gamer communities.You want an action game, play Smash TV. It's better.
>>9289549The dungeons get tedious, the overworld gets tedious. It just stops being fun at some point part way through the Dark World so I always end up dropping it like 4-5 dungeons in any time I try to replay LttP and give it another chance.
>>9289608yeah the dark would shouldn't be so segmented and broken up, it's a pain to traverse
>>9288878>I would argue the main strength of Zelda has never really been gameplay. If you want games that have more satisfying second to second gameplay, those have always been thereI'd argue you're totally wrong.The gameplay in the original is among the best of the generation and remains of timeless quality even given the limitations of the system. The mechanics and controls are thoughtful and well-designed to be both inherently satisfying but also challenging. The limited mechanics are used judiciously to maximize the variety of memorable enemy types and equipment, with subtle but important differences between each weapon and distinct traits for each enemy. Content design is fantastic, with thoughtful enemy placement and interesting combinations, from basic octorocs which die in one hit from your weakest sword but do shoot rocks at you (which you can block with your shield), to the challenging Wizrobe/Likelike/Bubble combos.ALTTP might not be as elegantly perfect as the original, but the gameplay is much more advanced and the combat mechanics are highly refined-- it's easily among the best of the 16-bit generation (all the more impressive given that the toughest top-down action competition of the generation wouldn't come out for several years). And again the game is heavily focused on delivering a wide variety of interesting content with a solid selection of equipment and varied enemies to use it on. Both those games have great "minute-to-minute gameplay" and in fact that's the main counter-argument to the standard /vr/ bait thread about bombing every wall in the overworld looking for secrets.
>>9289589Are you being retarded on purpose?
>>9289608So you don't like the gameplay or maybe the specific content and challenges, but because you're a primitive animal with no idea how to detach and analyze your experience for the sake of interesting criticism, you blame 'pacing' because you heard that word somewhere before and thought it sounded impressive.
>>9289648It probably would have helped if the overworld opened up more over time in the Dark World so you could traverse it more directly as you explored and unlocked more paths. The constant back and forth of portal hopping forever to get where you want to go just sucks.
>>9289691It's the most concise word to describe what I described there, you're just too autistic to understand a common word. LttP has bad pacing because exploration slows down in the Dark World and never speeds back up, as well as the dungeons become too long and tedious. These are pacing issues, the pacing bogs down and it sucks and becomes very boring.
imagine actually lorefagging zelda.>link wakes up and saves teh princess!!!!!grown ass men doing this, fucking faggots
>>9289676No, when you play a Zelda game, the appeal isn't coming from a place of doing sick combos, or beating tight platforming segments. You want to delve into the world, see what monsters are hiding there, talk to all the characters, and find the treasures. It's all narrative based appeal.
>>9289710>It's all narrative based appeal.cringe, no. its 100% gameplay appeal. know how i know? i could play the game in japanese and not understand anything anyone says and it would be just as fun as if it were in english. literally no one but you cares about what is said in the dialogue boxes.
>>9289702It's not about "deep lore". It's about simple effective narratives.A girl has lost her chickens, and I have to help her get her chickens back. that's a narrative. The actual picking up and placing of the chicken isn't that engaging as a piece of game design. Its the fact that there's narrative context to it that engages me.
>>9289719I didn't say dialogue boxes. As far as I'm concerned going into a cave and fighting a giant spider is just as much a narrative element.
>>9289726in other words you just like the gameplay but you also like pretending gameplay=narrative, i guess to stroke your own ego and make it feel like the stupid video games you're playing are mature or something.
>>9289745A spider in a cave isn't gameplay. That's a setting and a character.
>>9289746>A spider in a cave isn't gameplay.agreed, because that never happens in LTTP, despite you keep bringing it up
>>9289754I was talking about the original Zelda. I think it's a dead tree, not a cave, but whatever. It's a vague description of the kind of thing that happens in Zelda games.
>>9289698>It's the most concise word to describe what I described thereIt's not concise if it's wrong you dumb fuck.>LttP has bad pacing because exploration slows down in the Dark World and never speeds back upObjectively false. Exploration continues at a similar rate throughout the game.>the dungeons become too long and tediousFucking lol what a faggot. By what standard are they "too long?" The ALTTP dungeons aren't long at all. The one I posted above shouldn't take about 15 minutes if you know what you're doing, meaning that if you are totally clueless and slow-moving it might take you 30-45 minutes, which sounds pretty close to ideal for a reasonable play session.
>>9289723So, you're an obnoxious storyfag and everyone should ignore what you say.>The actual picking up and placing of the chicken isn't that engaging as a piece of game designIn fact, the main appeal here is the physics. As much as I bash cucco roundup, it's blatantly obvious that the point of that whole minigame is to climb around the environment and use the chickens to glide through the air and access various hard-to-reach spots. I would have preferred these mechanics to be better-integrated with combat from the start, but Nintendo didn't think so. Either way, the main point clearly isn't narrative.
>>9289773>Objectively false. Exploration continues at a similar rate throughout the game.No, it definitely slows down because of the segmenting of the Dark World. Getting around isn't as straightforward as in the Light World and it takes longer to get places thanks to the required portal hunting.>By what standard are they "too long?"My own subjective standards, the only ones that matter to my personal experience and enjoyment.
>>9289745The funny thing is that I get what he's talking about and it's occasionally relevant in RPGs. In a game like Final Fantasy, there's a distinctive narrative aspect to the combat. The combat is indeed a game where you make decisions based on risk and cost/benefit and such, but it's also a way to generate a narrative of how a combat sequence might have gone if it were to play out in real life.That doesn't really apply to Zelda though, because the game is so overwhelmingly focused on action.
>>9289785Portal hunting is exploration.>Exploration slows down because there's more to exploreFascinating.
>>9289789The action isn't that good. It's engaging because you're engaged in the role of being this kid exploring dungeons and hunting for treasure like something out of a myth.Take away all of the graphics, and all of the context, and what have you got really? Maybe a kind of shit version of Asteroids, where you can only move in four directions.
>>>/v/ is the contrarian bait board you faggots
>>9289806>Take away all of the graphics, and all of the context, and what have you got really? Maybe a kind of shit version of Asteroids, where you can only move in four directions.why stop there? take away the tv screen, and youre left with nothing but a controller. you can still press the buttons on the controller as if youre playing the game, the only difference is you dont see anything on the screen. but i mean think about it, theres no difference. your fingers are still pressing buttons. youre still having the exact same experience, just without the visual component. in this moment, i am euphoric.
>>9289813and take away the controller and your sentient conscious awareness until you're just a floating boltzman brain inside the spirit of Earthbound
>>9289798It's not exploration when you have to keep repeating it just to move across the overworld and get where you're going. The first time it's exploration and puzzle solving, the tenth time it's just tedious.