>Sonic had Knuckles and Metal Sonic as rivalswhy did they invent Shadow? He was a bad addition to the Sonic franchise.
>>8887342He was supposed to appear in one game and never to be seen after. Sonic Team only brought him back because of immense popularity, despite already having a complete story arc. Blame shadautists for resurrecting him and turning into a joke he is today
>>8887350yeah, he wasn't even cringy in SA2, just reserved
>>8887342Also Knuckles stopped being Sonic's rival by the end of S&K. They were only fighting because of Knuckles being a basement dweller for ages and Eggman lying to him.
>>8887342character marketed to edgy hot topic wannabe tryhards of early 2000.
>>8887342They invent a new villian practically every game, haven't you caught on?
>>8887342Seems like it worked out for them though, he's very popular.
>>8887342He hasn't been relevant for more than a decade, neither has he had a single role that mattered since 06. I'm guessing this thread was made due to the revived interest because of the movie.
>>8887342I wondered this too when the shitty 3D Sonic games first came out. Knuckles was already edgy Sonic.>>8887358>Knuckles stopped being Sonic's rival by the end of S&K.Which was the last real Sonic game before the stupid alt rock backed out of place lore with human populated cities and lazy autopilot 3D were released.Anyway Knuckles was really just Sonic's Proto Man where he straddles the villain / hero divide and has unclear motivations at first.
>>8887363>They invent a new villian practically every game, haven't you caught on?Sonic: Dr. RobotnikSonic 2: Dr. RobotnikSonic 3: Dr. RobotnikSonic & Knuckles: Dr. RobotnikSonic CD: Dr. RobotnikSonic Spinball: Dr. RobotnikDr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine: Dr. Robotnik
>>8887516shadow is sonic's bass igbesides proto man was only a villain in one game
>>8887516>with human populated citiesHow many times it should be repeated to you: humans always were there. Always.
>>8887560You didn't have cut scenes of people filled cities in Sonic 2 you autist.
>>8887536>proto man was only a villain in one gameSo exactly like Knuckles then.
>>8888034So? People still were there. On the background.Genesisfags are denying it so fiercely, for some reason, it's irrational. Like their whole childhood is going to shatter to million pieces if they allow Sonic humans to step in it
>>8887516Mega Man had the same thing though. Proto, Bass, Zero
>>8888061>People still were there.The existence of people assumed from a distant background image (that doesn't actually have people in it to begin with) or a humanoid face carved in a statue isn't the same as switching over to CAN'T HOLD ON MUCH LONGER and an armed SWAT team shooting at a jello monster.How do you not get these are completely different things? Are you just pretending to be retarded?
>>8888034but what about the Triumphing Turkishs?
>>8887359This game makes a lot more sense when you learn that the director was a Jak 2 fanboy.
Sonic was never good sega was never good
>>8887342He's not Sonic's rival, he's the replacement.
>>8887350>immense popularityWhat the fuck is wrong with Sonic fans.
>>8888384Have you ever seen "Man of the Year" short from Sonic Jam? If not, I recommend you to do so.After you do that, try to remember that Western Sonic lore is one hell of a mess created by Sega of America autists while japs weren't looking. And that japanese canon never ever denied humans in it. In fact, they were there even at early stages of development (see pic rel). Then I'd suggest to feel ashamed of realization that you're an actual retard who was sonicpilled by SoA in their childhood.
>>8889763We're talking about the games you autistic brainlet. You somehow still can't figure out there's a difference between a game like Sonic 2 vs. a game like Sonic Adventure. Or you can and are dishonestly trying as hard as possible to pretend not to.It's like you're arguing a plate of maggots is the same as a plate of filet mignon because there's a good chance the cow that beef came from made contact with an insect at some point when it was still alive.
>>8890096those wretched black creatures
>>8891251All i can get from your autistic screeching is that you don't like tone shift in Adventure games and humans being on foreground instead of background. Which is your own, and only your own problem. I just accepted it all early in the days of Adventure series and never had a problem with it ever since. Wish you could do that instead of holding to "muh 16-bit Sonic without cutscenes" philosophy.
>>8891302>only your own problem>Nobody else liked earlier Sonic games while disliking Sonic Adventure and other later 3D installments.You are the most delusional /vr/ I've seen in hours.What if I told you you're the contrarian here?
>>8891340>>8891302Girls, girls! You're both pretty. Now kiss and make up.
>>8887350>>8887356He was like a bad deviantart OC in SA2 including his tragic backstory
>>8891340>>Nobody else liked earlier Sonic games while disliking Sonic Adventure and other later 3D installments.Correct
>>8892737I'm pretty sure he STARTED bad deviantart OCs. And at the same time, Rouge blew up rule 34 community and started a new era of porn drawings.Sonic Adventure 2 was revolutionary in many ways.
>>8892737The day someone is able to criticize Shadow without a buzzword soup I might just keel over. It's always the most superficial low IQ appraisals
>>8893012>>8891340>>8891302I like 2d Sonic and hate 3d Sonic. But then, I really fucking hate the majority of 3d games. Mario64 is a notable exception but most others can suck my nuts.
>>8892737Shadow is just generic archetype of anime edgelord character. Don't know which anime started it but it was already there in 70's I think?With Black Gatchaman and shit.SA2 was full of anime tropes, it just look kinda weird with hedgehogs instead of humans, probably.
>>8893060>SA2 was full of anime tropes3&K bleeds shonen but people overlook it because they have lizard brains and can't see what this series was always supposed to be if not for the limitations of the hardware. Sonic has a goddamn super form and 3&K introduces new ones, complete with a Mecha Sonic powerup sequence and a battle in space.
>Not even a minute after my post people start replying to eachother Thread stalking freaks.
>>8893049>I'm pretty sure he STARTED bad deviantart OCs.Unfortunately, you would be very wrong.
>>8893052I'm sorry that you were hurt by this but it really is time to put down the black eyeshadow and look at yourself and the things you think are serious and deep.
Villain of the week, which was fine, but they just kept bringing him back, and none of it did any good for the character.
Sonic Team loves creating and reusing useless characters, hope you guys are hyped to see Zavok and Silver in the next game too.
>>8889763>sonic had a jessica rabbit stand inWHOA,why didin't they green-lit this & where had she been all these decades?it would have sold more then the first game if they had put her in
>>8893407>WHOA,why didin't they green-lit this & where had she been all these decades?Sega of America cockblocked Sonic from having a human girlfriend because it would've been too weird or some similar bullshit.
>>8893425She was in comics though.I would totally let her and Topaz from X arrest and interrogate my cock.
>>8893070The super form was a joke reference to DBZ, like Mega Man X having hadouken.Really there is a massive divide between Genesis Sonic (1) through S&K vs. Sonic Adventure and all the crap that came after it, up until Sonic Mania when Sega apparently apologized for 3D Sonic by doing a literal version of Sonic 2 Special Edition (that video from 12 years ago is eerily clairvoyant). You can rationalize as hard as you want about how Genesis Sonic and SA Sonic are the same because both wore shoes or both had levels with enemies but come on now.
>>8891302The adventure series is terrible though and putting humans in was fucking stupidMakes it look like a mishmash of different shit all tethered to that terrible 2000's idea of grounding everything like putting xmen in black suitsLike fuck no thanks
>>8893407>dat willy beamish cdWhat a pain in the glass that it seems like no one else has played it.
>>8889763>You just know.
>>8887342His Sonic Adventure 2 design was so fucking cool. No kid could resist it.
>>8887342Lots of people liked him in SA2. He was fine then.Then everything after SA2 happened.
>>8887342>Goku had Krillin, Tien and Piccolo as rivals, why did they invent Vegeta?
>>8894325None of those examples are much like Knuckles or Shadow.Krillin was never an antagonist. He was at worst a mischief causing friend and more often just the straight man to Goku's comedic lack of common sense.Tien was a regular villain who decided he should change his ways and stop being evil. Not much like Knuckles who was an antagonist because of a combination of good intentions and misdirection from Robotnik.Piccolo was the reincarnation of a pure evil villain who somehow accidentally developed morals and gradually progressed from temporary truce evil ally to regular good guy.Vegeta was also a regular evil villain who eventually mellowed out because Goku neither died nor killed him.
>>8893201Lmao what the fuck was a buzzword? he's not wrong anon Shadow is a shitty character, it's an emo Sonic recolor. At least before this, they put in the 5 minutes it took to make a new character a different animal.
>>8894325>Goku had Krillin, Tien and Piccolo as rivals, why did they invent Vegeta?this but unironically
>>8887342While you Sonic autists are arguing over generic shonen protag's rival or Adventure games being good or bad, I just mourn Rouge's initial design.She was so much better as Lara Croft rip-off than just talking tits we've got.
Because you use new characters to tell new stories. You can't give radically different backstories to already-established characters within the same continuity.>Knuckles is incredibly tied to Angel Island, the Master Emerald, and his dead tribe. He's an unambiguously good guy trying to do good things even in 3K, and is on good terms with Sonic immediately following the events of 3K. Sure, they can rib into each other as bickering buddies, but them actually fighting feels forced and unnatural nowadays (Adventure 1, Advance 2, Rivals).>Metal is incredibly tied to Eggman and Sonic. He was created by Eggman for the sole purpose of fighting Sonic, born with the drive to surpass him and prove himself superior. Eventually, he has broken off on his own (not even the first Eggman robot to do so in the games, nor even the last), but was the only one brought back under control. Even while he was rogue, he was laser focused on beating Sonic. Metal has been regularly appearing in games lately for a fight of some kind, a little too much, brings down his hype level.Would you rather deliberately fuck up an existing character that people are already attached to, or make a new one?
>>8893485>The super form was a joke reference to DBZThis shit has always been weird to me. It isn't a "joke" when it becomes a series staple and is directly involved with the plot and lore. The Hadouken is in like one mainline X game and a couple spin-offs/remakes. It's just a silly 100% reward, you don't see X start throwing out hadoukens in cutscenes and shit. The second Mecha Sonic went Super, it stopped being a joke and became serious.
i hope the people crying about how distracting and cringey rouge is know they're just giving themselves away as the ones who coom to her. she isn't sexualized whatsoever in-game and is obviously a spy movie fem fatale archetype, not "walking tits". she's barely even existent in the franchise anymore and you're all still obsessed
>>8887342knuckles is a doofy loner, metal is a mute, personalityless robot just like any other sonic enemy. neither of them are remotely the same. just say you don't like his edginess, no need to contrive shitty anecdotes like this.
>>8895953Tell that to the og chaotix crew that got screwed over by the western localization
>>8887342SA2 was a mistake. This IP could have been completely different in a alt timeline without it.
>>8887560Doesn't matter. Never mattered, never will.
>>8891302(You) aren't everyoneHe isn't the only person that feels that way.
>>8893012Go back to /v/, you shit up threads there and there allow.>Sonic Adventure 2 was revolutionary in many ways.Doesn't deserve a (You) but name 10 games not fan games, that took anything from SA1/2. And no, "gravity planets" is not original to SA2 before you mention Galaxy.
>>8893165Anything from the comics didn't amtter outside of the comics, while all OCs the fandom made was directly from Shadow.You don't even see Robot Sonic OCs, only ones with dark and striped colors or girls with massive tits thanks to Rouge.
>>8893485>The super form was a joke reference to DBZIt wasn't a joke. Naka was a massive DBZspic. Hadoken is a reference because both IPs are under Capcom you idiot.
>>8893485>up until Sonic Mania when Sega apparently apologized for 3D Sonic by doing a literal version of Sonic 2 Special Edition (that video from 12 years ago is eerily clairvoyant)You need to explain yourself because all of this sounds like shizoid shit. What the fuck are you talking about?Mania was just an ad for Forces, which failed, because Mania completely shat all over Forces, SEGA got pissed over this, canceled Mania 2, and forced the team behind it into remake hell that is Sonic Origins instead of a new game. If they wanted to apologize for 3D Sonic they'd instantly cancel Forces and Boom instead of releasing both of them.
>>8895978She has literal tit physics in SA2 you dishonest faggot. Stop seething.
>>8897138it matters as long as furry-only larpers keep shoehorning themselves in as the True Scotsman of the sonic fandom when really they're just talking out of their ass and projecting literal fanfiction onto the canon
>>8897165she has ear physics too so therefore she's just Walking Ears the character
>>8897145>Doesn't deserve a (You) but name 10 games not fan games, that took anything from SA1/2. And no, "gravity planets" is not original to SA2 before you mention Galaxy.I was ironic, you cockheaded blockheadPeople like you should fix their autism, I suspect that a lot of them shit on Adventure games just because their mental condition is making them fixated on game's flaws instead of actually enjoying its positive aspects.Answering question: early in 2000's, it was hip to make edgy vidya mascots and extreme gameplay segments like skateboarding, snowboards, etc. But Adventure games probably had nothing to do with it, it was just a common trend of that time. Few games that definitely were copying Sonic in some way or another were Kao the Kangaroo: Round 2 and Ty.
>>8893007oh god all those 2008 youtube rantsonas crying about uncreative OCs with their uncreative OC. really who the fuck cares if some kid draws a green sonic and thinks he's cool? like every dumb idea a kid comes up with first needs to be approved by the ministry of autism before its allowed to exist
>>8897212When I was 10, I drew a unicorn of darkness who kicked leprechauns.
You've made this thread multiple times.The answer is he's a villain of the week, and was fine in that particular role, but then they kept bringing him back, and never to great effect.He also may have been an attempt to "update" Sonic for the Linkin Park generation, without outright changing Sonic's character. If Shadow the Hedgehog had done well, that could well have been where things had gone with the franchise after that point.
You all can think whatever you want.For 12-year old me, Sonic and Shadow teaming up and jerking invisible cocks to transform into Super forms with Live and Learn playing on background was the coolest shit ever.Stop questioning things made for kids, you're not a kid anymore and you've lost your ability to understand such things a long time ago.
>>8893485>up until Sonic Mania when Sega apparently apologized for 3D Sonic by doing a literal version of Sonic 2 Special Edition (that video from 12 years ago is eerily clairvoyant)>>8897157>You need to explain yourself because all of this sounds like shizoid shit. What the fuck are you talking about?How is Sonic Mania being an apology for 3D Sonic a schizoid take in the slightest? They went out their way to make a 2D game in the style of the Genesis games and tell you right in the trailer:>Now, as we move forward to discover what made Sonic a gaming icon, we’re going back.You 3D fags are so delusional it's ridiculous. Mania was successful exactly because so many Sonic fans really like 2D Sonic and really don't like the direction Sonic took with the 3D games. It's insane you think this is some speculative conspiracy theory and not just very obvious not at all hidden surface level reality.
>>8887342Shadow is the vegeta of the seriesbut unlike vegeta, he is stronger than sonic.
>>8898392>he is stronger than sonic.not true at all youre delusional
>>8898721did sonic defeat mephiles?
>>8898729Did sonic eat shit and get amnesia after fighting Biolizard?The same fight where Shadow also admitted he thought Sonic was the real ultimate life form.
>>8898743no he died to mephiles
>>8887342Fang is the best rival conceptually, he's an inversion of Sonic's best traits.
>>8891302>it's the adventure autismo againAnon, your pillsalso the Adventure games are awful and that's a majority opinion
>>8893012>publications didn't have the balls to shit on the killer app of a major consolewow, 1998 is just 2022 but with more paper
>>8897145Didn't Adventure 2 come up with letter rankings at the end of levels? Legitimately great addition even if I don't think SA2 is a good game
>>8897709That's the thing, SA2 has style and soul. It's just an awful game though. It's prime remake materialBut knowing how remakes go, they would fix the gameplay and ruin the cutscenes
>>8898814>Didn't Adventure 2 come up with letter rankings at the end of levels?Letter ranking is one of the oldest video game ideas there is.In terms of Sonic specifically, Christmas Nights into Dreams for Saturn had Sonic as a playable character and provided letter rankings of your runs.
>>8898876that's like saying Sonic 1 wasn't groundbreaking because ball physics were in Marble Madness
>>8887342They wanted to tell a new story about Arc, Gerald and Maria and shit. You can't really do that with anyone else.>>8887350Should have made Metal Shadow as his replacement.
>>8889763Why is no one mentioning Eggman is human
>>8899060He had that whole shitty character arc in Heroes and his standalone game all about his existential crisis about whether or not he may be a robot or a clone.
>>8897818>They went out their way to make a 2D game in the style of the Genesis games and tell you right in the trailer:This has nothing to do with SEGA themselves. That's what the fans wanted to say, and make, it's them that is saying "fuck 3D Sonic". If SEGA thought that they'd never publish Sonic Forces and have Mania tie into it. Use your fucking head.And I'm not a 3Dfag, I'm borderline complete classicuck at this point because of all of the autistic spergging trying so hard to defend every ounce of shit the 3D games have unironically. If Mania mattered, SEGA would have fired SoJ and replaced them with actually passionate people that loves Sonic regardless of era, but since Taxman is pro classic that's just what it is. If SEGA wants modern to get the same affection, hire some actually talented devs ffs.
>>8887356>This is like taking candy from a baby, which is fine by me
>>8899292>"Shadow was fine in SA2">replies to that with a quite not from SA2reading comprehension, anon
>>8898923It's not like that at all since letter rankings are almost the exact same thing in those two games while marble physics is only loosely similar to the way movement in Sonic was programmed. Letter rankings isn't an innovation and require about as little effort to implement as is possible for a video game feature.
>>8899803>easy to implementand yet it took 7 or 8 games for them to finally show up, and they haven't left sincethat's an innovation. deal with it
>>8887342Somehow Penders is responsible for this
>>8898876Kinda' wished Sega kept rankings as a separate challenge from the main campaign after SA1. It might be autism, but I become so hyper-focused on trying to get a good rank as opposed to just playing through the level at my own pace without the slapping me across the face with a "Git Gud" sticker.
>>8899964*without the game slapping me Excuse me. Had a mini stroke there.
>>8899835>it took 7 or 8 games for them to finally show upThat's how little they matter, yes.>and they haven't left sinceThere aren't letter rankings in Sonic Mania i.e. the only decent Sonic game since the Genesis years.
>>8899292literally not a SA2 quote you retard fuck
>>8899995>>and they haven't left since>There aren't letter rankings in Sonic ManiaOk. Thanks for the non-sequitur.
>>8899995>That's how little they matter, yes.then explain why they still keep being put in every gameit's almost like regardless of the game they always improve it>>8899995>There aren't letter rankings in Sonic Maniathat's a flaw, dude. also Sonic Mania is overrated. I didn't even finish it, too familiar, too boring
>>8899964it's something you should only care about if you really like the game. just like time trials or speedrunning. it's just another component of those
>>8887356He was actually cocky in sa2 not an edge lord
>>8888036Wasnt protoman like testing how strong megaman was and not actually trying to stop him there were parts were he would help you progress like in gemini man stage
>>8900035>it's something you should only care about if you really like the game.Oh I do, in terms of Sonic, it's just knowing I'll be graded by the end of every stage by default makes me anxious. It's like the game's telling me "You did/didn't play the right way" then either pats my back or spits in my face just for playing a video game. It's not a good feeling. I can't separate that from my mind since I'm so used to SA1.Eventually I do end up going back and try again for a better rank if I liked the level enough.
>>8889763I read somewhere that in the japanese canon sonic and the rest of the cast have always lived on earth NOT on mobious and robotnik has always been called eggman
>>8900025>If it's in the game it must be because it was a great innovation>If it's not in the game that must mean the game was flawedStellar argument.
Knuckles should have remained a mysterious Sonic rival with his original codename "Rastafari" and retain his original fuchsia fur instead of the red one from S&K.
>>8900193Heh, pretty cool Echyd'nya, anon. But seriously, is there a character that could possibly EVEN TOUCH Enerjak? Let alone defeat him. And I'm not talking about Chaos Knuckles Enerjak. I'm not talking about Jani-Ca Enerjak either. Hell, I'm not even talking about the Knuckles Enerjak of Dark Mobius. I'm talking about Mobius Prime Enerjak with teleportation, telepathy, mind control, levitation, and control over matter and energy at a molecular level while becoming a giant with super strength and utilizing Chaos energy in a fashion similar to Shadow the Hedgehog's Chaos Spear attack, in a move called Thunder Arrow and the extraction of his enemies' concentrated life essence cores, leaving them lifeless husks.
>>8900245Ken, go back home. You've been skipping your meds recently.
>>8898791or it was just actually good especially in its time and a half hour fishing minigame for babies wasn't enough to sway them unlike internet contrarians
>>8898791> they're positive about game> which means they're lying! > no one can be positive about itKek. These people are calling someone else "delusional".
>>8898791ayupnothing ever changesthat's the real secret
>>8900183hurr why is every car 4 wheels because it worksb-b-but muh car is 3 wheels and it works tookek ok
>>8900630>A fucking letter grade on 3D Sonic games is as important as a wheel is for a carMakes sense I guess given how bad 3D Sonic games are. Printing a letter on screen based on your score wouldn't count as an important part of a good Sonic game of course.
SA2 was indeed the start of the series tone getting noticeably more "edgy" than previous games, but they somehow managed to pull it off better than later attempts.It’s almost hard to believe Shiro Maekawa wrote both SA2 and 06. SA2s story was laughable in a hype way, while 06s story was laughable in a cringey way.
>>8900706I disagree, and it's actually not the only thing. Time trial modes were only introduced with Sonic CD and then were missing in 3. Both time trials and letter grading are undeniable great additions that make Sonic games better. Period
>>8900726>SA2s story was laughable in a hype way, while 06s story was laughable in a cringey way.That's literally your age talking. I was never exposed to SA2 until much later and I think all the Maria and Shadow subplot very cringe.06 is not much better with the Elise shit, but the music makes it much more hype. 06 music actually makes 06 look epic even though it's a buggy piece of shit
>>8887516Humans were there from the start in the original Japanese canon, ie Sonic the Screensaver. "There were no humans on the planet except Robotnik" is a misconception created by SATAM.
>>8887356SA2 is nothing but cringe
>>8900790> SA2 is nothing but soulFixed that for ya
>>8900780It's not the "do humans exist" issue you Adventure autists keep trying to turn it into.It's about the games. Do you really not get how completely different Sonic Adventure / SA2 are compared to the Genesis Sonic games?Humans hypithetically existing in originally intended Japanese canon doesn't mean Sonic 2 involved jumping around police cars in a New York style city while a SWAT team tries to open fire at a jello pudding pop to the backing of some shitty alt rock Drowning Pool cover band. The truth is so obvious and you keep doing everything possible to obscure it with attempts to pass this all off as always how Sonic worked, like there wasn't any sort of change between the two sets of games. It's just silly.
>>8900790it was a shonen, if that's cringe to you then sure, but maybe you were just not its target audience
>>8901536Well, I don't want to run around the Green Hill for 20 games straight. Things need to change, and Sonic Adventure was an attempt to develop the existing formula further. At least they tried to connect the dots, Chaos wasn't just a random villain but a manifestation of power which Chaos Emeralds have. We've sort of seen the origins of Emeralds themselves, along with Knuckles' tribe backstory and Tails character development.Apparently Genesisfags just want to repeat the same thing over and over because that makes them happy. Eggman started using his old badniks from Sonic 1 which Sonic can destroy in one second. That's a 300 IQ move right here.
>>8901557You can make new games that build on older ones without needing to shit all over them with something ridiculous.Sonic CD had a neat time travel mechanic and Sonic & Knuckles was a cool lock-on cartridge other Genesis cartridges could be merged with. Sonic Adventure and SA2 just shit the bed, which is something different but not in a good way.
>>8901590>Sonic CD had a neat time travel mechanicIt was an absolute ass and it's good they didn't went further with it. Stages changing depending on your actions were cool though.> Sonic & Knuckles was a cool lock-on cartridge SA1 had chao garden, kind of open-world and downloadable internet content.It had a lot of neat details for its time, just not as big as inserting one game in another and get a double game. You guys shit on homing attack but imagine a 3d Sonic without auto aim, it could be worse than anything.
>>8892737>He was like a bad deviantart OC in SA2 including his tragic backstoryHe is literally just fucking Mewtwo.I don't know how you're on an anime website while being this illiterate.
>>8887342>Sonic Adventure 2 winds up the best plot in a Sonic gameOops, guess he was worth it.
>>8887516Knuckles was already established to be a good guy. You can't keep bringing him back at odds with Sonic unless he's truly a retard.
>>8902463>You can't keep bringing him back at odds with Sonic unless he's truly a retard.Knuckles being a gullible retard has been his canon character for a long time now.
>>8902474Yeah, but everyone knows he's good at heart. Maybe you can get 1 battle out of him before Sonic smacks him down and he comes around. He cannot be the antagonist of another whole game. Not without some serious shenanigans. I think that warrants the invention of characters like Shadow. Or shitheads like Nack who will just never be friends.
>>8902479Literally just make him turn evil because of chaos emerald magic. Shit's not hard.
>>8893485>it was fahnee joek!That's some shitty cope. Does it help you deal with unironically liking shounen powerup bullshit?
>>8902496I'm sure you'd love to take them to court over that, wouldn't you, Ken?
>>8902498And your picture of a very fast hedgehog going super saiyan is supposed to establish this *isn't* a joke DBZ reference?Is the Death Egg very serious and not a parody in your mind too? Trying to get a feel for how deep your mental illness is clocking in at here.
>>8902602Where's the fucking punchline, anon? It's a sustained theme through multiple games. If he leapt at the camera and turned into Goku, sure, punchline. But it's a core gameplay element, and it returns in the very next game. And you can't tell me Mecha Sonic powering up was "ironic." The hell it was.
>>8902602If the death egg was a joke, they'd play the imperial march (or legally distinct variation) for a laugh. Death egg was an unironic constant. It starts as a reference but just becomes its own cool thing. It didn't keep nudging you with star wars jokes, or introduce a green hedgehog yoda. You completely misinterpret intent.
>>8902659You seem to be confusing jokes with autistic overdoing of jokes.You can have a joke without running it into the ground and without turning to the audience every two seconds to wink and ask if they get what you were doing there.There's no way to have a nearly exact replica of the Death Star except as a fat mustachioed guy's likeness carved on it and not have that be a joke.
>>8902672And you seem to misunderstand that something starting as a nudge, doesn't have to remain nothing more forever and completely belittle any attempts for it to become just accepted canon. Super Saiyan and Death Egg are "references." Or maybe "ripoffs" if you prefer. But that doesn't make them nothing more. And saying "Sonic isn't shounen" is pure cope. You are just trying to grasp onto something, ANYTHING that makes you "better" than fans of Adventure.Now that's a joke.
>>8902680>Or maybe "ripoffs" if you prefer.It would make no sense at all to call something a joke reference and a ripoff at the same time. A ripoff is something passed off as your own, and I'm not sure how you could think as obvious a reference as the Death Egg made to look and be titled as much like the Death Star as possible is in any way an attempt to pass off the most famous IP in the world as an original idea for the Sonic franchise.It's a funny cartoonish blue hedgehog running very fast and fighting a fat guy, anon. Even the darkest Sonic content from the Archie comics keeps an ironic distance and sense of humor. You're not supposed to take Sonic seriously.
>>8902704>It would make no sense at all to call something a joke reference and a ripoff at the same timeMight that be why I used the word "or?" I was covering the bases that it might not be a joke at all, just creative bankruptcy. Plenty of games shamelessly rip something off and it's only your assumption that it's a punchline. Was OoT's Kokiri a "riff" on Peter Pan? Or just a cheap idea they grabbed about unaging children who wear green because you can go interesting places with it? Same thing with a giant battlestation or a hedgehog who becomes infused with energy. You first called that a joke, not me.
>>8902704>Even the darkest Sonic content from the Archie comics keeps an ironic distance and sense of humor. You're not supposed to take Sonic seriously.Archie's sense of humor is completely divorced from whatever Sonic team was doing with the games. You cannot cite them as evidence of Sonic's core philosophies. They were so obviously on different pages, doing their own thing. Shit like SatAM is a dead giveaway of the mismatch of ideas of what Sonic is and should be. Hell, even Adventures of Sonic was going a different direction that SatAM, and both of those shows are American endeavors. Sonic was whatever the hell anyone feels like doing, until Sega clamped down on that.
>>8902730I agree with it being a joke and disagree with it being a ripoff.
>>8902759Doesn't really matter. The point demonstrated is there could be other interpretations.
>>8887516Stop pretending you dislike the music from Sonic Adventure. Nobody believes you.
>The super form was a joke reference to DBZI'd argue that S&K dedicating the final boss level towards Super Sonic already makes it more than just a silly reference at that point.
>not liking ShadowFiltered
Joke or not, who gives a shit? Most 90s properties, from both US and Japan, were full of pop culture references.
>>8887350This, I mean he pretty explicitly died at the end of SA2 but then Heroes just said uhhh forget that happened.
>>8902976The Sonic franchise has time travel, cloning, reanimation, and parallel universes so it's not like it'd be hard to justify any given dead character coming back to life.
>>8903087Also, "talking cartoon animals." And not the melancholy "Watership Down" variety.
>>8903128watership down sonic universe, or maybe something akin to plague dogs
>>8903087all but the first are lame retcons from heroes and beyond done to appease the shittiest kinds of sonic fans. shadow was brought back in the lamest way ever to appease his edgelord 12 year old fanclub and parallel universes was done to appease 40 year old satam autists still seething over green eyes when adventure 1 clearly took place directly after 3&k. these aren't inherent precedents of the series.
>>8893070Maybe they aren't interested in insect man media.
>>8903156That's literally what Sonic already was.
>>8902704>Even the darkest Sonic content from the Archie comics keeps an ironic distance and sense of humor.Tell me how I know you've never read them.
>>8903087Yeah but his character arc was finished, Shadow's story had been told. Dying to save the humanity that he mistakenly believed he was supposed to hate capped it all off and brought it to a close. To bring him back just feels like a disservice to his character, and I say that as someone that ALWAYS preferred the Sonic levels over the Shadow ones and hated his skating animation.
>>8887350fpbp, shadow was supposed to be a one off "opposite" character to sonic for the dark team, but since hes the only person in the entire series who was decently written (in SA2 at least) he exploded in popularity.
>>8887342Because he's hot.
>>8903398Shadow is all melodrama. E-102 was better written.
>>8903198>hated his skating animationThis is a weird one. I can understand hating his design or character in general but skating animation? It was supposed to add to how cool he is.By the way, how does Shadow's boots work? Do they have portable jet engines? Doesn't it burn his feet when using?What kind of fuel/energy is used in them and how does Shadow refuel it? Who made these boots? Was this ever been answered??
>>8902704>Even the darkest Sonic content from the Archie comics keeps an ironic distance and sense of humor.Ken Penders has on multiple occasions gotten angry at sega for daring to introduce a new echidna.
>>8903989Ken Penders is a retard and should be ignored.His only good creations are Sonic's mom, Fiona Fox and Mina Mongoose which are prime fap material. Everything else is a work of mentally sick person.
>>8904040I'm pretty sure Mina and Fiona aren't his.
>>8904059Double-checked, my bad.He's only introduced alternate version of Mina and helped to recreate Fiona while her initial creation belongs to other artist.That makes his addition to Sonic universe even less significant, mostly a bunch of random animals and echidnas.
>>8887342knuckles became a friend and there's only so much you can do with metal sonic without turining him into a different character like heroes did
>>8902730Not that anon but are you seriously claiming the Death Egg is anything but an amusing reference to the Death Star? It's not trying to rip it off, it's very on the nose and aware of what it is.Now, on Super Sonic, I do largely agree and believe that while that may have started as a simple reference, having never been played as amusingly as having the Death Star but with Eggman's face on it, they definitely took it to heart as something fully intentionally meant to be cool by Sonic 3 & Knuckles and think anyone calling it a joke is deluding themselves.
>>8904085>are you seriously claiming the Death Egg is anything but an amusing reference to the Death Star?No, that's not the argument. The problem becomes when you claim that's ALL it is. "One big joke that you shouldn't take seriously." You see this big intimidating Death Egg in the background of multiple stages, it's something to be taken seriously as something cool. Not "just" a joke. Trying to say 'this proves that Sonic doesn't take itself seriously' is beyond stupid.
>>8904091Sonic takes itself seriously, it definitely was not trying to be ironic until at least Colors (not retro) at best and even that still had a genuinely serious plot when you remove Sonic's writing from the equation.That doesn't mean that the Death Egg wasn't meant to be a silly reference. Eggman is a goofy villain. He's called fucking EGGMAN and always has been as far as the Japs are concerned. He is the villain of the game and his presence is meant to be a bad thing, but he was not conceived as someone to shit your pants over, that was the weird American portrayals. He's had his cool and intimidating moments in the time since but his core existence is specifically engineered to take the edge off of that by reminding you it's a kid's game. Just like with your screenshot. It's a juxtaposition of a giant intimidating doomsday weapon in the background of a volcano with the fact that it's a fucking Death Star with Eggman's face on it. This is completely intended, it takes the edge off to make it a little more lighthearted and not directly scary.
>>8904098Well now we're just splitting hairs about "how silly this actually is" and that's not an argument that can be won. Nobody said the Death Egg didn't start as a Star Wars joke/reference, or at least, that's not the argument anyone had any real interest in. But, as you've already agreed, this is not evidence that the games are ironic when Sonic goes Super Saiyan. That's the argument maybe some other anon made, that the tone of the Genesis games is completely different from Adventures, and that's the only thing I have any interest in contesting.And for further evidence of that, look no further than the Space Colony Ark's activated form.
>>8904119The only thing I truly took issue with was the idea that the Death Egg was a "ripoff" when it's as on the nose and open about what it is as can be. I said I agreed on the notes about Super Sonic because I was trying to make that clear.I would say the Adventure games do absolutely take themselves more seriously than the Genesis games do and are meant to be more "epic" with less lightheartedness, especially 2, but at the same time they ARE a direct continuation of the ideas from the Genesis games, much moreso than many classicfags such as >>8901536 try to claim. Adventure builds off of 3&K and what it established while upping the ante, and then 2 builds off of what Adventure did and ups things more. There's a logical progression. Which you're trying to say as well so I'm not arguing, even Adventure 2 still has the Gerald face on the ARK as you pointed out and absurd elements like the Tornado transforming and goofy cutscenes like everything involving the Space Shuttle.The original games through Adventure 2 had heavy elements that had the edges shaved off by what else was present, by design. It wasn't until 06 that they completely lost their way and went all in on trying to play things fully seriously.
>>8901590>build on older ones without needing to shit all over them with something ridiculous.Of course it wouldn't be /vr/ if there wasn't someone going "X is good because I grew up with it while Y is bad cause i already grew out of it"How does SA1 and SA2 not build on what was pre established in the genesis games? I swear if you retards were handed the steering wheel the games would be even more of an unwieldy mess then they already are
>>8904176>CAN'T HOLD ON MUCH LONGER
>>8904176>How does SA1 and SA2 not build on what was pre established in the genesis games?Refer to Mario 64 if you need an example of how to progress to 3D without shitting the bed.Notice Mario didn't start jumping around a SWAT team with Nickelback-esque rock jams for a soundtrack.
>>8904207No, it just completely changed the mechanics and objective of the games entirely.Sonic music just uses what was "cool" at the time so in the early 90's it was new jack swing and in the late 90's-2000s it was rock.
>>8904221Right, Mario 64 seamlessly respected the past while moving it forward in a way that was new and exciting, in contrast with Sonic Adventure which was weird and willfully offensive to the original's sensibilities.It's pretty amazing really just how well Mario landed that leap forward and how badly Sonic lost his way.
>>8904207I know it's a fucking golden calf around here, but I actually don't care for Mario 64. It's unironically a step down from Mario 3 and SMW. It's like those chairs for toddlers with a few toys in reach, instead of game design and level progression. Only the Bowser levels felt like real Mario. So no, don't see "Mario 64" on how to "do things right," it sucks.
>>8904235What? Mario 64 destroyed the vision of the original games' challenging obstacle course design into a lame-o exploration based format. It totally disrespected the original games, which is why 3D Mario sells so poorly compared to 2D Mario while being much more expensive to make.
>>8887531of the sonic games i've played or i'm aware of...sonic - dr. robotniksonic CD - metal sonicsonic 2 - robotnik again and metaler sonicsonic 3 & knuckles - knucklesadventure - chaosadventure 2 - shadowheroes - metalist sonicshadow - the black aliens06 - demonic looking shadowunleashed - dark gaiacolors - robotnik againgenerations - everybody againlost world - the deadly sixboom - lyricmania - the hard boiled heaviesforces - infinite...granted i never played boom, lost world or anything between adventure 2 and generations.
>>8904235Wrong. If anything, Sonic Adventure respects the past far more by actually developing Angel Island and the lore behind it and Knuckles guarding it actually makes sense as opposed to him just being on the island guarding it just because he does. Sonic's abilities (bounce and air dash) are also present in adventure 2 carried over from Sonic 3 and made part of his moveset as well. The Chao garden gives the animals inside the robots more importance beyond a little sprite that jumps out when you beat an enemy but because of superficial shit like the police showing up at the start which is supposed to parallel the flashback in the final story you have just assumed that Sonic adventure is offensive to the original's sensibilities that of which you claim to know of more than the people who actually made the games.
>>8904274>3D Mario sells so poorlyAre you just pretending to be retarded? Mario 64 is high up on the list of all-time best selling Nintendo games for any platform with 22.97 million games sold.It lapped Sonic Adventure in sales five times over.Also Mario 64 had more sales than Super Mario Lands 1 &2, Super Mario Bros 2, and Super Mario All-Stars, all of which were themselves best sellers and 2D, so you're wrong in every way possible.
>>8904091>picSomehow I never noticed Death Egg in the background until now, despite playing through this dozens of times.
>>8904730How? It's eyes flash and turn everything to magma, it's the centerpiece of the scene.
>>8904189theme song?? in muh sonic???its more likely than generationsfags think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYW7-hNXZlM
>>8904498>tfw the floating island floats as a deterrent so chaos can never be unleashed againand we're supposed to believe its a whole new canon cause they upped the detail on the characters
>humans were always there, just because mario's a wop doesn't mean he's not human silly
>>8904235literally what element does mario 64 take from previous games besides mario himself? its an entirely different game really. sonic adventure has much more similarities with previous games and is still the closest to 2d sonic in 3d we've gotten from the guy himself. green eyes and fishing don't defy this anymore than mario 64 not having question blocks and fire flowers defy its precedents.>muh artstylemario 64 has a significantly different artstyle from previous mario games. the fact that sonic adventure tries something new and doesn't retread green hill for the 4334949534435303593450 time is a GOOD thing. notice how both mario and sonic became unfun when they became more about regurgitating old ideas than anything else. that new super mario shit is peak soullessness and i'm glad sonic at least didn't sell out to its past quite that hard
>>8905224>literally what element does mario 64 take from previous games besides mario himself?Goombas, Koopas, Bowser, the list goes on...
>>8905239wow and sonic adventure has badniks and robotnik
>>8905013Be careful Modern Sonictard as the same could be used against you as wellPersonally, I agree with the Mariofags. Lore being the centerpoint of Sonic is exactly what made this infamous split between eras happen. no one that grew up with classic Sonic got invested in Sonic by story telling, as it was just the side element to S3K and nothing else, as the other 4 classic Sonic games had far more of a gameplay heavy focus classicfags have a massive epiphany for, like no other platformer can truly "feel" so right to play. This is exactly what made Mario vs Sonic a thing, and it's blatant this is the only way these two could have ever competed and Nintendies SA2Bfags could never understand on a fundamental level. Having Mario go into new directions of what a platformer could evolve into is far more respectful than what Sonic ultimately tried to get in bed with by SA1, because going from platformer to collectathon is still a platformer, just where exploration gives platforming a 3rd dimensional plane. If you haven't noticed by now, most if not all of the classic Sonic games, have always had this same level of space that always allowed for Sonic to take multiple paths to get to the same goal, with the weakest example being Sonic 2.Take that and compare to SA1/2, where the only explorational parts were stuck to Tails and Knuckles and instead of using that to their strengths, they forced how you played with linear directorial gimmicks you must abide to instead of just going where ever you want to go in a 3D space. If this was more faithful to classic Sonic, as you claimed, these gimmicks would have never existed. Looking at Sonic, it's the same. Always on linear paths with minimal variety of where to go every time you play. It was like taking Sonic 2 and gimmickifying that as Sonic's coew identity instead of, as you say, faithfully evolving past S3K. (1/2)
>>8907679(2/2)Basically, literally downgrading to previous versions of Sonic play styles, just because that one just so happened to sell the most. And to add to that, adding other characters that play far too differently to how Sonic, Tails and Knuckles did in S3K, just cemented that further that it's not that faithful to what Sonic established as a platformer, compared to Mario. The fact you care more about how faithful the story telling was carried over over the gameplay integrity, despite doing just that for Mario seems hypocritical to me. You think Mario was a complete departure from 2D Mario gameplay wise, but think 3D Sonic was flawlessly seamless, despite many classicfags for decades saying otherwise. If SA1 was a perfect translation from S3K, Knuckles shouldn't be going RNG hunting as the main game loop, he should have been trying to reach his goals via hidden paths only he can take like in S3K. Tails shouldn't be doing races with his opponents, he should just being Sonic's levels but easy mode. If you wanted to take him further to make him more unique, he's the perfect example of why 3D Sonic failed to actually go 3D with layered level design with far more verticality to them instead of flat paths over a massive void of death, as Tails should have taken advantage of holes in ceilings or extremely hard to reach places only his flight could allow him to access. And of course, Sonic, he'd just actually be playable in the first place, where all of his abilities from classic Sonic would have made it back seamlessly, instead of being a clear example of not having the technical insight on coping Naka's work from 2D into 3D. So many missing elements from classic Sonic is just outright gone in SA1, and it's extremely tiresome hearing non classic era fags insist it's this perfect translation. It's not.
>>8907686TL;DR: Imo, Mario 64 is far more faithful to the core appeal of Mario that I agree it's more faithful in general, compared to what Sonicfags got with SA1. Focusing on lore over gameplay is and always will be what makes 3D Sonic as a IP a failure compared to the classic era days.
>>8907679>>8907686>>8907692quit forcing a split where there isn't one. someone can enjoy the genesis games as well as the dreamcast games despite their differences, as they have just as many similarities, adventure 1 in particular. you're throwing this shitfit about how no "classicfag" (gag) cares about lore when its a huge reason so many people prefer 3&k to the others, myself included. the sonic adventure games are also still platformers just as mario 64 is. some of the characters having mechanics you don't like doesn't defy this. knuckles' gameplay turning into emerald hunting is no more a baffling change to his gameplay than mario going from a linear challenge-based sidescroller to a non-linear exploration-based collectathon. the changes made to the two characters respectively are remarkably similar in this regard. you cry about how the series didn't innovate on 3&k before crying about the innovations it did make that you just don't count as innovations since you personally don't like them, while then demanding the gameplay actually be exactly the same as 3&k with everyone just going through different routes in sonic's stages. oh wait that's exactly what the game did, for literally all characters.i don't think anybody's saying its a "perfect" transition from 3&k, just that it did carry over some of its positives and did in fact carry over the lore, which matters since generations fanboy pseuds love act like the adventure games are just this baffling aberration in every regard that completely uprooted every aspect of the series including the lore, which is just patently false despite the cowardly retcons nu-sega is so gung ho to make. the fact that self-proclaimed "classicfags" so easily fall for this just shows how pretentious they really are, and acting like it's just impossible to find similar enjoyment between both the genesis and dreamcast games and doing this faggy mic drop post like you just dropped a truth bomb shows how pretentious you really are.
the split was caused by spergs who think green eyes = new series. and sega kowtowed when they never should have in the first place.
>Thread about Shadow being dug up from the grave to be a cereal box mascot >Devolves into a flamewar over Mario vs Sonic vs Modern vs ClassicTime to nuke this pseudo-general already.
>>8907782is it really any better to discuss the former for 200 posts? i feel like everything that needed to be said in that regard already was.
>>8907786The thread would've died regardless, but one faggot had to erupt into yet another 2D > 3D spergfest and I swear I've seen the same autistic arguments word for word on humans being in Sonic in previous threads. Give it a fucking rest already.
>>8907801that discussion is perfectly appropriate for /vr/. no one's forcing you to stay in here whining.
>>8907801>2D > 3D3D Mario was great, and I've never even met someone who liked 2D Mario but hated Mario 64. It's more about Sonic not being handled well with 3D.
>>8894680>Laced boots>Dat earring >Elbow spines >Combed to the side hairThis is hitting all the right spots with me. Grade A material design. I have a feeling she'd have been a hit with teen girls at the time given the emo/scene phase and KH popularity.
>>8907904>I've never even met someone who liked 2D Mario but hated Mario 64LMAO >>8905013
>>8907768>quit forcing a split where there isn't one.I not forcing anything, it's fact that's how the pre SA1 (espically SA2B) fanbase felt like. Even SEGA realize many people just think 90s Sonic is far more timeless and cultural than Modern. Only zoomers like Modern, sees Modern as "the real Sonic" and only they care less had bad the games play as long as the story telling matters to validate themselves for some reason or anotherNothing is going to change this at this point, it's been too long now. Modern has cemented what he "was" or "wants" to be, which will never hit the same way classic era did. They fundamentally pander to two types of fans, of with cannot be intertwined.
>>8907928if you mean actual modern sonic as in boost sonic then yeah that's accurate. as far as adventure sonic goes though? nope.
>>8900746>Both time trials and letter grading are undeniable great additions that make Sonic games better.I can see that the former makes sense, but how do you mean for the latter?
>>8907919I don't know why that's supposed to be funny. I said I never met anyone who liked 2D Mario yet didn't like Mario 64, which is true.I've never met whoever that anon is and I have no ides if he's sincere or just a Sonic fag pretending Mario 64 was bad to try to win an argument.
>>8907928i definitely see how sa2b in particular inadvertently fractured the fanbase by bringing on a new generation of nintendo fan kids who had never cared about sonic beforehand, but using that to then larp that absolutely everyone who likes either adventure game is automatically le zoomzoom who has no respect for the genesis games is just retarded. i am walking talking proof to the contrary. your hackneyed easy narrative is invalid.
>>8907956he probably is but there are absolutely people who like 2d mario but don't like 3d mario. they're pretty significantly different as long as we're not talking about that 3d land shit. perfectly possible that someone who likes mario 3 just doesn't have a preference for collectathons
>>8907967>but using that to then larp that absolutely everyone who likes either adventure game is automatically le zoomzoom who has no respect for the genesis games is just retarded.Then prove itThe only appeal of SA1 is "FINALLY! SONIC IS LE BACK N SHIET! DISREGARD ALL THE POLISH AND FANTASTICAL ELEMENTS OF THE PAST 10 YEARS, GERENIC AF HOOMANS AND JANKY GAMEPLAY IS THE PERFECTED TRANSITION INTO 3D FOR SONIC!!!"I get the feeling most of not all Adventurefags never keep plying the classic games longer than Green Hill Zone at best because if you were like me, completely obsessed over just how technically and masterfully crafted Sonic 3K was where you kept on replaying the game for years on end before geting your hands on SA1/2, I'd honestly find it impossible to just think SA1 was objectively superior to S3K, which is exactly where this split lie. Every anti SA1/2 fag is a hardcore S3K fag, and it's clear why.The multitudes of what 2D did right and what 3D did wrong is so ingrain into what zoomer Sonicfags don't notice what Sonic lost while boomer Sonicfags cared enough to complain what wasn't maintained.
>>8907810>Flamewars are ok when they're on-topic!Pls go back to /v/ and stay go.
>>8908045>prove itliterally everyone who owned a fucking dreamcast was a sega fan, including myself. not even acknowledging that layered on top all this bad faith buzzword schizoposting on top of your abject failure to recognize that the same people who liked sa1 in its day are the same people who liked 3&k is making me realize that no john, you are the zoomer. completely fucking agree 3&k is superior by the way. never implied otherwise. fuck off retard.
>>8908057it's not a flamewar, green eye phobes are just incapable of posting in good faith.
>>8908068>literally everyone who owned a fucking dreamcast was a sega fan,So less than 1 million of them? Big woop, when Genesis had 100s of millions, just for Sonic alone. That means jack shit in the grand schemes of your cherrypicked narrative, claiming no one could possibly hate SA1 just because "10% of Sonicfags wasted money on the Dreamcast."
>>8908057Flame wars wouldn't exist here if the post S3K fags didn't come here where they are not allowed.
>>8908084>claiming no one could possibly hate SA1not my problem that you can't read>wasted money on the Dreamcast.lol you're anhedonic
>>8908095>anhedonicIf that was the case I'd never own a genesis. Facts are, owning a clearly dead console isn't something to be proud of. It's like being proud to own a Virtual Boy. The writing was on the wall if you were actually old enough to know how business works, kid. After like 4 failed peripherals after the Genesis, it was clear SEGA was dead as a console company. Trying to support them in spite of their inability as a company, well, explains why so many bad Sonic games after fans still defend their slop, much in the same vain as Pokemon with Gamefreak.
>>8907774sperg triggered that his baby game isn't considered canonhow many times am I gonna read this whiny shit
>>8908231>how many times am i gonna be proven wrongif it bothers you then stop making shit up