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File: Chrono_Cross_EEUU.png (2.49 MB, 1224x1148)
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Would you like this better if it had no ties with Chrono Trigger?
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>>8206612
I'm neutral on Chrono Cross itself. I only hate how re-releases of Chrono Trigger force in more and more retcons to tie into Chrono Cross.
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>>8206612
FUCK CHRONO CROSS AND ITS FAGGOT FANS >PEOPLE WHO LIKE IT NEED TO BE ROUNDED UP AND SHOT ITS NOTHING BUT GLORIFIED FANFICTION FROM THE GUY WHO COWROTE THE ZEAL ARC AND WAS JEALOUS OF HIS SENIORS DRAGON QUEST FAME
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>>8206612
Yes.
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>>8206612
man I love CC....will always remain a treasured memory from my childhood
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>>8206612
CC has some of the comfiest visuals and sounds in any game period, but the game itself is pretty mediocre.
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>>8206612
I don't think the boring as fuck combat system and the literal dozens of party characters with zero weight on the story have anything to do with Chrono Trigger
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>>8206612
Having ties with Chrono Trigger itself was never the issue. The problem was the false expectations of gamers that just because it was a successor that shared a part of the title, meant it had to be closer to the original and feature the same world and characters. This is the problem. Game developers should feel no pressure from consumers like this. It's just stubborn conceptualization in their minds that makes them think "a "sequel" must be like this." I have to say "spiritual successor" just because the connotation of "sequel" is that it's painfully similar to the game it's a sequel of.

And funnily enough, no one complained that Final Fantasy VIII didn't feature the same characters or world as Final Fantasy VII.
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>>8206782
>Companies should be able to piggyback on a property's popularity and momentum for attention on exposure with no sort of moral responsibility to deliver on the resulting expectations.
Ok consoomer
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>>8206612
1st playthrough
>waiting for the CT tie-ins
>massively disappointed
2nd playthrough
>this game looks and sounds beautiful
>emulator-inspired fast forward feature in NG+
>collect all the party members
>figure out the story
3rd playthrough
>great game on its own
>happens to have references to an even better game, which enhances the overall experience
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>>8206612

Early 2000s I played through most of Chrono Trigger on an emulator until almost the end when my harddrive crashed and I lost my saves.

I've decided to try again just lately, and it's great. What cool shit they did within the parameters and limits of the SNES.
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>>8206782
Yes it does. I was promised a new Chrono game and paid real money for it, but got a ridiculously generic PS1 c-lister JRPG. I was quite literally cheated by Squaresoft's marketing department out of a $60.
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>>8206612
>Would you like this better if it had no ties with Chrono Trigger?
It already doesn't have them
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>>8206612
I like it as it is
Not its fault they cancelled Break
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I played CC before I played CT so I didn't care. Without the blind hatred from Trigger fans, it's easy to see it as one of the best PS1 games. I enjoyed the music and map more than CT.
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I would be ok with CC if it didn't imply Crono and the gang are dead
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>>8206668
The average Chrono Trigger fan over there.
Meanwhile, average Poshul enjoyer here.
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>>8206668
Zoah it's that you?
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>>8207278
Video games didn't cost $60 until the generation after Chrono Cross's. I payed $50 for Chrono Cross on release day. No PS1 games cost more than $50 MSRP.
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>>8207296
fuck off
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>>8206612
IT's a great game either way, 9/10 for most ppl
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>>8206612
the amount of characters really puts me off and is one of the biggest reasons I never got far in the game.
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>>8206612
I'd like it better if it got rid of the awful grid magic system
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>>8206612
yeah. the chrono trigger callbacks just seem pointless and especially mean-spirited for a game that had a very happy ending.
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>>8207521
underrated comment
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>>8206668
Take the chill pill Mr.COPE
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>>8209247
It's not really, it's just the edginess of the millennium era that permeated everything. We all felt that civilization was teetering on the brink, landing us in the shit of today. The media of the time reflects that shared sense of impending doom.
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>>8208430

Imagine if the entire game had the soul of this tiny bit. What could have been anons...
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>>8209564
>the house of one of the beloved characters is being burned down to hell and she probably died too
>soul
>>
Seeing Chrono Crosses's world makes me regret defeating Lavos. You save the world so these awful characters can live? I hated Cross so much that I wish you could use a time loop to make two Lavoses appear to destroy the earth twice.
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>>8209579
Everyone dies xometime.
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>>8209564
The entire game is literally FILLED with stuff like that tiny bit, did you even play it?
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>>8209786
Not him, but care to list some? I only remember connections from the multiple plot dumps.
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>>8209852
The cities from the future, the reptites (they went to the alternate dimension), the AI is called Prometheus (which is Robo's real name in CT), Guile whose real name is Maguile, a green-haired swordsman called Glenn, the kingdom of Porre going to war, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. And at one point ghosts of CT's protagonists, Crono included, appear.
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>>8209865
>similar names are now connections
CCfags are delusional.
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>>8209786
when has anybody memeing about "soul" ever played a single videogame?
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>>8209879
>Similar names
The only character that merely has a similar name is Glenn. Guile, Prometheus, and Luccia are direct connections
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>>8206612
I finished it as a child and have good memories of it, especially the soundtrack. Chrono Trigger, I've never finished. Not because it was boring or something, but at the time I was using an emulator and not an actual SNES, got halfway through the game and suffered an HDD crash - saves were gone. I got too butthurt to finish it. Maybe I will one day. Then again I know the whole story just from browsing the net over the years, so not sure if it's still worth it in this day and age. Chrono Cross was fun, but now that I think about it - it was also a huge mess. Huge cast of characters with next to zero character development. I'll still defend the OST though. It was bangin.
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>>8210168
Guile only became a direct connection with the CTDS secret boss. If that's your canon, you're a fucking faggot.
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>>8210496
>you're a fucking faggot.
Where do you think you are?
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>>8206817
This
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>>8209865
It's still not exactly explained what the ghosts/echoes are. One of them says during the endgame infodump that they no longer exist in that timeline, so the implication is that Lynx/FATE arranged their current state but they might still be around in the other timeline.
>>8210168
It's also strongly implied that Leah wandered from a Gate and that she actually grows up to become Ayla's mom/ancestor if her ending quote is any indication. The weird thing is that Ayla's "tail" is actually a scarf of sorts, while Leah's tail seems to be hers.
>>8210496
I still think that was supposed to tie into Chrono Break instead. The whole Guile thing seems like a red herring.
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>>8206612
The end game would likely be stronger but there's still a shit load that makes the game not as good as it could be. Honestly if you really wanted to fix CC you need to cut half the cast, really shape up the story and the writing a bit to make everything flow better and get rid of some of the more pointless themes and ideas the game tried and failed to push.
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>>8208532
I don't understand this complaint, how can the amount of characters (most of which you're not forced to use) kill your interest in playing the game?
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>>8206612
I grew up on CT and the only things that pique my curiosity about this are the references to CT. My dislike for this game has to do with the confusing gameplay and nonsensical story. There's nobody to relate to.
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>>8206668
Take your meds.
Also, Cross OST > Trigger OST.
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>>8209865
Also on New Game + you can fight Ozzie, Slash and Flea in the Bend of Time
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>>8206817
Yes, they unironically should. Why do you think they "piggyback?" Because it's a proven thing that name brand recognition means the game will sell better. The developers aren't responsible for the fact that this is how consumers work. And why are their expectations necessarily infallible when they often expect a game to be TOO similar (read: not original) to the original? Your reply is argumentum ad populum.

>>8207278
>new Chrono game
Just wants a re-hash of the first game with the same characters thrown back in instead of something original.
You're all proving my point. And without people like you Square never would feel any sense of pressure to link their games to Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, or other successful IPs to begin with. You wouldn't buy it if the title was new, you'll dislike it if the title is connected to past games but it's not similar enough to the past games. Truly, there's no pleasing you. (and Square knows this.)
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>>8206668
based
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>>8216658
this reply is so moronic it's making my head spin
if they're just tricking gullible people into buying CHRONO whatever the fuck, why integrate chrono trigger characters? schala is massively important in CC, lucca is pretty important, robo has an impact etc. once the dumb consumer drones have fallen for your bait and switch, you can just make whatever you want, right?
why not just name every game final fantasy if they're just trying to cash in on brand recognition? why make a new IP at all?
if the goal is pure profitability, surely the game would be more profitable if it gave people what they wanted. you could dredge up chrono and ayla and robo and have them travel through time again to kill some new alien thing that's ten times eviler than lavos.
chrono cross is the worst of all compromises. it is a narrative sequel to chrono trigger that does not preserve the gameplay, barely integrates the characters and mishandles them in hilarious ways when they do appear
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No, why would I? The many connections to a game with a completely different philosophy, no matter how wrong it might be, is quite interesting.
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>>8209579
exactly
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>>8214267
That's not even a controversial opinion. You really have to be a huge contrarian to say CT has a better soundtrack.
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>>8206778
>dozens of party characters with zero weight on the story have anything to do with Chrono Trigger
That's my biggest gripe with it, but other than that I love it.
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>>8216697
>Without revealing any more of Chrono Cross' excellent storyline, it can be said that it successfully pulls off the difficult balancing act every sequel faces. It's not a rehash of the original Chrono Trigger, but neither does it exploit the characters and setting of Chrono Trigger for name recognition alone. Instead, it sets up an equally valid, separate, and well-developed world, then slowly and responsibly weaves in elements, characters, and events from the first title. It doesn't continue the original Chrono Trigger mythos so much as it expands it. Gamers will be stunned by the resolution of the disparate plot threads. And with features like a unilaterally taciturn hero, an accommodating attitude toward interdimensional travel, and a new game+ mode, Chrono Cross manages to maintain the ineffable Chrono Trigger feel.
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>>8217581
>Surprisingly, Chrono Cross' seemingly endless supply of characters works to its benefit, not its detriment. The secret to its success? Every last one of the 40-plus members is a unique, story-driven, and valuable contributor. Unlike many cast-of-thousands RPG epics, each character in Chrono Cross is an interesting and worthy addition to your team. Everyone has a beautiful character model, excellently animated attacks, and three unique "limit break" type special skills. There's even a miniquest or special requirement for every character's best skill - that's a lot of extra adventuring! While you'll certainly have your own handful of favorites, you'll never add someone to your party and wonder, "Why is this character in the game?" There are no disposable placeholders in Chrono Cross.
how much do you think square paid this guy? maybe 1% of the spirits within budget?
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>>8216918
CT has a better soundtrack
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>>8216918
While CC's soundtrack might sound better i feel the CT tunes are way more catchy
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>>8206612
No. I like it the way it is.
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>>8206623
Is this true? Any place where I could read on that? First time I ever heard this.
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>>8216924
yeah i dont understand this criticism. i loved all the extra characters and going on having to collect their different abilities.
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>>8217606
That guy you quoted is completely correct, pic related is him and he's extremely based Cross enjoyer
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>>8206612
>>8206623
Ill admit, I wanted another Chrono Trigger and was kinda disapointed. But I was a delusional fan and pressed on and lied to myself that I loved the game. truth is, too many characters, and a story I really didn't care for, nor was I engaged in. I don't fault anyone for liking it, has a great OST. Oh.. The OST and game would literally put me to sleep while playing it. I had the same problem with okami. I would fall asleep with my controller in hand. honestly, I don't know any other games I have played where this happens.
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>>8206782
>Call unrelated game a sequel in order to make sweet $$$
>Fans pay money for one thing and get the opposite of what they were advertised
>"It's the fans fault for believing our lies"

Not that it really matters. Chrono Cross would be garbage even if it was totally unrelated to CT or if CT never existed.
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>>8221590
Holy seething Trigger fanboy
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>>8210496
Ask me how I know you didn't play Radical Dreamers
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unironically yes. the disappoint when placing it next to CT in canon is always so disappointing
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>>8220267
You can't really miss them.

From PS1:
>Anime cutscene of Lucca finding an infant Kid as she appears under a tree
>Anime cutscene of Porre destroying Guardia and soldiers being slaughtered by an unknown man wielding the Masamune

From DS:
>Dalton appears in 1000AD as a bonus dungeon boss. After being defeated, he brags that he'll be the one who makes Porre destroy Guardia as payback for all his humiliations
>The final bonus boss is the incomplete Time Devourer, which can only be repelled but not killed. A Magus from another timeline tries and fails to save Schala from it and is cast to another era with no memories, with implications that he becomes Guile in CC
>>
when this game came out i was looking for ties to CT but they weren't upfront, so i was turned off. as i made some progress in the game, i found the battle system didn't seem to have much to do with CT at all, so i had to learn a brand new system, which i didn't intend to sign on for. i imagine the main reason i didn't continue with this game was i wasn't interested in learning the battle system. CC is one of those cases where i think changing from 2d to 3d worked against it because i think squaresoft at the time considered "choose your attacks based on the enemy's position" too old fashioned. plus, they may have not had many ideas about how you'd make that work in 3d because i guess you'd need extra development to make enemies move around in actual 3d space. and CC is not a platformer.

i'm curious why square-enix decided to add in direct ties to CC in the DS version of CT. yeah, it's fanservice, but they gotta know CC is a divisive game, and not everyone is interested in these connections. i prefer to think of CT as a game that stands alone. but i guess if you're going to add lore-friendly content and a sequel exists, something that explains how the games connect makes sense. my gripe would be that i doubt i'd fully appreciate it if i didn't get very far in CC. i have a feeling there's a significant number of people who played the hell out of CT, but don't give a shit about CC.

that said, i am interested in a few aspects of CC. magus, the time devourer, and schala. the shit about the dragons can fuck right off.

another thing is, over the years i've learned to appreciate CT managed to tell a story i fully understood despite it being a time travel episode. in fact, the more i play it, the more nuance i notice in the story. contrast that with CC which seems to indulge in japanese abstract nonsense for the hell of it, and color me nonplussed.
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>>8223871
by the way, i regard xenogears as the spiritual successor. it also leans hard into japanese abstract nonsense, even telling you, oh, by the way, this is a few episodes in. thanks for playing! at the end. but at least all the nonsense was more contained. and i'm more open minded about mecha and kill god japanese nonsense than whatever CC is doing...emotional abstract nonsense? reminds me of what squeenix ended up doing with the FF13 series, notretro.
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>>8218474
Me too
>>
Don't really mind the tie ins. Cross is a very different game, so if could have been made without a tie in to CT specifically, but it works in some ways.

The only thing I don't like about Cross is that there are too many characters and many are weak. If they had cut the characters down to like 6-10 but had more side content for each it would have been stronger. Still phenomenal game though. Best of the PS1 era.
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>>8206612
Everytime someone says this my brain breaks because it literally wouldn't exist if not for Chrono Trigger. What would the story be like if it wasn't connected?
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>>8210370
>I got too butthurt to finish it. Maybe I will one day.
You should. If you only go for one ending, it's a short game and can be beaten in ~15 hours. I'd recommend just shooting to play at a brisk pace, you can beat it in a few sessions, and then you can look up the other endings on Youtube. Of course, the game is meant to get at least a couple playthroughs and 50+ hours out of it, but these days with emulators you can just fire it up and experience it and see everything it has to offer with the internet.
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What people don't understand about CT is that it's writer is ashamed of it's plot and the fanbase that venerates it. He literally made CC to wash away the bad aftertaste of CT.
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>>8225943
Given how successful Chrono Trigger is, it strikes me as a silly thing to be upset about. Perhaps he was upset not in spite but because of that: the more people like the game, the more misunderstood and regretful he feels about how he wrote the story. I'll try to look this up later. Hopefully there's a good interview or article with quotations by him I can find. (better yet, a fan-site that properly covers it.)
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>>8225943
so sakaguchi basically carried him
not surprising
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>>8206612
Yes. Aside from the pokemon-esque level of characters this game is a pretty solid standalone RPG. Not the best one in the PS1 catalog, but it beats the tar out of Legend of Dragoon hands down.
>>8206782
The issue was that the media coverage/marketing was pushing it as a direct sequel (pic related) when in fact they "...didn't want to directly extendChrono Triggerinto a sequel, but create a newChronowith links to the original." (Masato Kato)
Which, fine, spiritual successor, whatever. People can live with a decent game that gives nods to its inspiration. However, Square started doubling down on the media hype after Trigger Niggers(I'll even add myself to that list) started bitching about how it literally had no ties to CT other than name drops. So square started throwing in retcon shit with its weeb OVAs and re-releases so they could say "see, it is a sequel!" As>>8223814 and >>8223871 pretty much talk about.
>>8213996
Majority of the games enjoyment stems from the story/narrative as it evolves around the cast. Trying to account for 45 people's back story and how it relates to the main storyline can get distracting/exhausting. Even more so when some characters can't be acquired without a second playthrough. At that point it just looks like a cheap gimmick to give the game "replayability" when it might not have even needed it.
>>8223456
Gil is Magus, Guile is not, nogames.(inb4 DS magus had amnesia, see >>8210496)

>>8225846
The same with some minor name changes.
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>>8225846
>What would the story be like if it wasn't connected?
90% of the game would be identical.
kid is just a normal person. the orphanage is also run by a normal non-cameo person. remove the wink wink nudge nudge nods to magus, frog and ayla that don't go anywhere.
the problem is schala, since she's tied into a lot of major story beats and those only really make sense if you've played trigger. you could just create a new time traveling princess with cloning powers but i think we could do better. ideally you could tell the whole story without that character at all. here's my shot:
FATE is just a robot that is advanced enough to figure out time travel. i think that's fine, better than one of lavos's toenails being a central plot device. constantly sending information back in time creates an infinite number of extremely similar parallel universes and this bumps up against a limit of physics. the time devourer is a personification of that physical limit - a sort of dark god that eats orphaned timelines. paradoxes emerge as older universes get erased and causality falls apart. the first noticeable paradox is serge living, and this causes fractures in the dimensions which allow him to travel to the other world. FATE wants to eliminate all paradoxes as it considers them an unstable element in its planning, justifying all the stupid evil plots against serge without schala being involved.
there's little details to iron out but i think you could easily tie the important cross elements together without involving anyone from trigger. do you really need Porre in the backstory for anything else to work?
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>>8227972
This.
But I would propose that since Kid is a Schala clone you could just rename Schala Kid 2.0 and say she's merged with the devourer and write that off to explain why there is only 1 Kid between the two dimensions.
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>>8206767
More or less what I was coming here to say. Probably in my top 5 favorite JRPGs, but only due to the plot, some few characters, the world, and OST. The gameplay itself is painfully average. It’s just so fucking comfy and full of soul that you can fill in the blanks. What a game.
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>>8206612
Yes.
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>>8227904
>Gil is Magus, Guile is not, nogames.(inb4 DS magus had amnesia,
He was intended to be Magus the entire time. DS Trigger covered for their inability to include him smoothly
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>>8223875
>abstract nonsense
You seem to literally not get it.
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>>8228465
shrug, when i read the wikipedia page for CC, i found it extremely confusing for no good reason.
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>>8228150
Not that smoothly. They have to point out that this Magus isn't the same one that you defeated and potentially recruited over the course of the game.
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>>8228150
>was intended
Intent does not equate to deed. Guile is not Magus.
>DS Trigger...smoothly
The shitty attempt at retcon did nothing. Magus having his memory erased after being told there's nothing he can do makes it pretty difficult to further a story line where he disguises himself and joins with Serge/Kid to find and rescue Schala. Even further it does nothing to cover the left out plot details of Guile/Kid's potential interactions since he would recognize her as Schala.
Tying two characters together because of "muh amnesia" and leaving it at that is just shit story writing and pretty much insulting the intelligence of anyone who liked either installment.
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>>8228752
>Tying two characters together because of "muh amnesia" and leaving it at that is just shit story writing
Just like every other retcon they force into CT. To me, Schala just plain died after the Ocean Palace (as per the need for a heroic sacrifce in the typical Hero's Journey plot), and the best Magus can do is find her body and give her a proper burial.
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>>8227972
That…is a pretty good fucking story actually. Are you a writer?
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>>8229317
no lol
i've taken science fiction writing 101 so i have some experience in fixing bad writing
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>>8206612
I hate his hat.
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>>8228752
>Guile is not Magus
He literally is though. Cope, triggerfag
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>>8228963
I dont think she died since she was the original owner of the Dreamstone Pendant. If anything I think she may be the "entity" through the game who is "connected to Lavos" and helps in creating the gates through the pendant. That opens up the viability of Schala being brought back since Magus could essentially use the pendant and chrono trigger to bring her back. His decision to begin his search in 12000 BC is the only piece that doesn't fit however.
>>8230053
No he isn't and no amount of seething on your part will make it so ya tard.
1/10 bait for making me reply.
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>>8230239
It's been known since the 90s and now confirmed that Guile is Magus. You don't even have to play Cross or rely on the DS version it's explicitly stated in Radical Dreamers. Why do headcannon fags always seethe so hard when you pop their bubble?
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>>8230263
>>8230263
There was no Guile in Radical Dreamers you nogames nigger faggot.
Next time try reading the thread first before trying to demonstrate your idiocy.

See >>8227904
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>>8230705
It's the same character you double gay tranny nigger
>>
>>8230239
>His decision to begin his search in 12000 BC is the only piece that doesn't fit however.
Start from where he last saw her, I guess.
>>
>>8206612

The original Chrono Trigger was great, but the impression that I always got from Chrono Cross is that it had been done with some small tie ins to the original as a way for the creative team to finally get his characters from Radical Dreamers into a game format and have a way to broadly market it.

That said the plot is convulted. I liked the initial idea of being able to travel between dimensions, and the game art was beautiful for the time, but it really fell short of the richness and simplicity of the original Chrono Trigger.

Also too many characters, it really suffered in this respect, even with Chrono trigger which had a larger cast, it would swap characters in and out in terms of usefulness, but you didn't really need more than what you had.
>>
The problem witch Cross is that it spent most of it's game not being linked to Trigger, then final third being a Trigger spinoff. Square essentially mashed 2 games together and it really sucked. But on their own both games would have been fine.
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>>8206612
Not necessarily, because then I'd also be less invested going in.
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>>8206612
I still really hate his hat.
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>>8232551
It's a bandana
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>>8232558
And I hate it. Probably thinks he's a wigger and listens to Hiphop.
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>>8232558
No anon it's a tricone.
>>
>>8231672
>Same Character
>Develop game based off of a previous game
>Use all characters from old game: serge, kid, lynx, Magil
>Magil
>Fucking Magil, like Magus but changed 2 letters
>Change Magil to Guile for no fucking reason at all. Guile, not like Magus at fucking all (what did they mean by this?)
>retcon Magus story line in CT to have Schala say he cannot help her until people no longer use power as a crutch
>Magus brain wipes and ends up becoming wandering Gypsy wizard as a result... fucking nailed it bruh!

It's time to leave; you need to be 18+ to post here.
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>>8233457
It's a different timeline as verified by Chrono Cross itself you cringe headcannon söiboi. If there weren't differences in characterization it would just be a remake of RD. Magil=Guile and all of your autistic seething is in vain
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>>8206612
No the game is very unfinished, it's missing at least half of it. Half of the story was text-dumped before Lavos. It has the best level up system though.
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>>8233657
>different timeliness verified by Cross
Different dimension/universe actually. Which would allow for a character to not exist.

>if there weren't differences in characterization it would be a remake of RD
Thank you for acknowledging that Guile is not Magus.

>Magil = Guile
False. Kato explains that they intended (key word) for Guile to be Magus, but re-wrote the character due to his inability to fit the story arc into Cross.

>b..but muh DS extra content
See >>8210496
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>>8232551
>>8232668
>Can't into men of the sea fashion
Terrible tastes
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>>8206612
Some day soon I'll play it.

I just get 3 hours into Chrono Trigger and then I lose interest.
I grew up hearing my friends spam the CC OST which made me fall in love with the series even though I had never played it.
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>>8227904
>The issue was that the media coverage/marketing was pushing it as a direct sequel when in fact they "...didn't want to directly extend Chrono Trigger into a sequel, but create a new Chrono with links to the original." (Masato Kato)
Yes, that's precisely my point.

The problem was never Chrono Cross. If it's just a "spiritual successor" rather than a "sequel," that's fine. It should go without saying that the game should stand on its own devices, regardless of its title or nods to previous games.

Does anyone complain Final Fantasy IX isn't enough like Final Fantasy VIII, and is wrong to merely allude to previous games in the series? If there were 8 games prior to Chrono Cross that had "Chrono" in the title, each with their own world and characters, no one would complain about Chrono Cross.

The problem was just perception and what some thought it "should" be in their minds. You rightfully shed light on how advertisers encouraged this, but I stand by ultimately blaming consumers for being childish. People who harshly reacted like >>8206817 >>8207278 >>8221590 and even insisted I was defending bad business practices (Chrono Cross is actually a very poor example of a pure "cash-in" game) just prove my point. Doesn't it really say something when all this clamor about what the game should be comes down to its association with one game made prior to it? Think about it: how much people's expectations would be different if just the name of the game was different even if it was exactly the same in every other way. It's right to criticize the realities of business and marketing, but it doesn't come out of nowhere: a lot of consumers really are superfiical, picky and stupid, which explains the negative reaction from some of them that it "wasn't enough like Chrono Trigger." (there's meaningful criticisms to make to Chrono Cross, but this isn't one of them. The game is too easy, if anything it's too much like Chrono Trigger.)
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>>8233984
Just play Cross. I played it first and I loved the hell out of it, and then was underwhelmed when I finally played Trigger years later. Tends to be the case for people who play Cross first. That mostly has to do with reputation not matching up because you think "Wow if Cross is THIS good, Trigger must really be the best game ever like everyone says".

And Trigger is still really good, just no where up to its reputation.

And yes, the OST, best ever. Still listen to it to this day and I rarely do that with videogame music. Beautiful game all around.
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>>8234007
>The problem was never Chrono Cross. If it's just a "spiritual successor"...
To be fair you really need to look at it from a larger picture context. It's a culture thing more so than an a "Here is new game" "Boo Hoo game is not what I wanted" situation. You've got to realize how information spread in the late '90s compared to today.

When CT was released it became THE premier 10/10 RPG. It was rated both best RPG AND SNES game by EGM. Which, at the time, was pretty considerable. So when they announced a sequel to one of the greatest games of all time (at the time) there was definitely going to be speculation/anticipation/ hope about what it would entail. You can't blame people for hoping for a story that carried on from where the game left off. (Will Magus find Schala? Who is the Entity? Are there more Lavos beings out there inhabiting other worlds?) So think about what they anticipated - more time travel? Exploring a solar system instead of just a planet? Dimensional/other world traveling? The return of or narrative developing cameos by beloved CT characters?
Needless to say there was great buildup for this sequel. And mind you that's how this was discussed. No one was talking about Radical Dreamers; most people weren't even aware it existed and the few that did struggled to find an English translated ROM to download for their emulator. Without that connection we could only look a CC and compare it to CT as it was. So imagine the disappointment when you get a game that is both what you expected it to be and yet simultaneously not - it creates a weird feeling inside you as a fan of the series.
>cool it involves dimensional travel
>wait it all takes place on an island?
>Hey Chrono and team are here!
>Wait, they died? Killed by an army from some shitty insignificant Island? In a house fire? But they were strong enough to fight an entire magic wielding empire and 3-man a time displacing monster from space!

1/?
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>>8234007
2/?
>Lucca was literally the master of the fire element!! How did she die in a fire? How could they lose to a militia?

So I agree that the expectation for the game to be excellent in quality is standalone, but the issue taken up isn't about if it's a good game as much as it is about whether or not it's a good sequel. The fact that you could remove all elements that attach it to CT out of the game and replace them with generic themes/names and it would still be solid game is actually a problem. Because then what about it makes it a sequel?

>Does any one complain FF9...FF8...
So I get where you are going with this but it's kind of an apples and oranges fallacy. Final Fantasy was meant to be a single installment and was the last desperate effort of Uemetsu/Square before the company would have gone bankrupt. They're are numbered volumes not sequels as some volumes have their own sequels. They all (with few exception) share common themes throughout each volume - elemental based magic crystals, chocobo, moogles, the name Cid, a group of people coming together to defeat a global sized evil, etc.
Had the Chrono series been presented in a similar light then you would probably be right; there wouldn't be much of an issue. However since it wasn't developed nor presented in that way we are now just trying to defend a position purely on hypotheticals.
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>>8234007
3/?
>...consumers...being childish
So game developers always need to maintain balance between artistic integrity and customer satisfaction. If Westwood(?) Pushed a COD sequel and it played more like an MGS game it may not be a bad game but nobody should be surprised when detractors from the series complain about the missing traditional COD elements in that particular installment.
I personally wouldn't attribute it to bad business practices either.
>Doesn't it really say something when all this clamor about what the game should be comes down to its association with one game made prior to it?
That's kind of the norm with sequels though to be honest. And it doesn't just apply to games. Movies, music, books, etc all get this kind of scrutiny as well. It's an even more dangerous territory to get into when you have such a dedicated fan base.
>It's right to criticize the realities of business and marketing, but it doesn't come out of nowhere: a lot of consumers really are superfiical, picky and stupid, which explains the negative reaction from some of them that it "wasn't enough like Chrono Trigger." (there's meaningful criticisms to make to Chrono Cross, but this isn't one of them. The game is too easy, if anything it's too much like Chrono Trigger.)
I believe the criticism between CC and CT are warranted/meaningful. I may be biased since I grew up with CT (I was 12 when I got my cartridge in '95) but, and I may be speaking for myself, I don't think critics of CC expected it to be CT 2.0. Though I don't think it's a stretch to want a game that at least furthers the narrative from its predecessor other than "everyone died and the future they saved fucked up lol"

And let's be honest - Nobody plays Square games for the challenge. 99.9% of square games are easy. The last time I struggled with a Square game was when I played Einhander.
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>bought this game
>couldn't into the battle mechanics
>give up after 2 hours
>haven't played for two years
can someone just give me a quick redpill on how the mechanics work and what i should be trying to do so i can try enjoying the game
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>>8233824
>Which would allow for a character to not exist
Except he does exist and he's still Magus. They didn't retcon the entire timeline. His nom de guerre in the Japanese version is Alf. He even named himself after his childhood cat. Please stop being retarded anon
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>>8235154
>sperging out on the first line of text
>not acknowledging the last line

>were_you_the_retard_all_along?no_its_the_kids_who_are_out_of_touch.jpg

The literal makers of Chrono Cross said they didn't have room to fit the Magus storyline in so they removed it. He is not Magus. Intended to be yes, but they rewrote Guiles story to be a completely different character. So as it stands in posterity of the Chrono story line, Guile is NOT Magus and no amount of archivist digging of the development teams cutting room floor will change that. Saying "he was supposed to be" and standing on that as bona fide proof of existence is literally fan fiction/head cannon tier faggotry(take your meds). Even the DS fanservice does absolute shit for correlating the characters together.
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>>8234971
>You've got to realize how information spread in the late '90s compared to today.
This is a good point, after all we're mostly witnessing people complaining presently about how it is compared to the first Chrono Trigger. It was a different time before the internet.

>When CT was released it became THE premier 10/10 RPG. It was rated both best RPG AND SNES game by EGM. Which, at the time, was pretty considerable.
Chrono Trigger was overhyped in my opinion, it's a good game but I think it's quite clear that it was the production value and graphics (and music) that generated the enthusiasm from journalism media. It couldn't have been the gameplay on its own devices. There's nothing innovative in it besides the seamless battle transitions and the branching paths and multiple endings. It's a very straightforward game.

I think this is quite relevant, because to perhaps understand the problem people had with Chrono Cross, we can't just talk about expectations it would link to Chrono Trigger, but how Chrono Trigger had been hyped unreasonably itself.

>most people weren't even aware it existed and the few that did struggled to find an English translated ROM to download for their emulator
They simply couldn't, it wasn't translated by Demiforce until 2003. Emulators and the ROM were available prior but it's not like enough people could read Japanese for that to have an impact regardless.

>So imagine the disappointment when you get a game that is both what you expected it to be and yet simultaneously not - it creates a weird feeling inside you as a fan of the series.
I feel like this isn't a bad thing: the less than direct connection could have been appreciated, and I believe was, by more open-minded fans. I think it was a bold artistic move that worked out for the best. The more stubborn fans were more vocal.
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>>8234974
>The fact that you could remove all elements that attach it to CT out of the game and replace them with generic themes/names and it would still be solid game is actually a problem
I don't agree, since not only does it have enough connections in terms of themes, story, and direct correlation with plot elements and characters to Chrono Trigger that it would be very different if they did this, but I don't see it as a problem in and of itself either way. You ask "what, then, makes it a sequel?" But the same could be said for any sequel: beyond the skeleton of the actual game itself it comes down to shared world, characters, designs, and plot elements. If Final Fantasy X-2 had the same gameplay but the world was different and went by a different name and none of the recurring characters were the same, I would not have an issue with that. Neither would any fan because the game itself would not be called Final Fantasy X-2 at that point at all. (but the story and gameplay would still be identical.)

So my point is it's clear the problem was the expectation. It doesn't even seem to be the fault of the developers at all that the game was marketed as a sequel: that seems to be more attributable to the journalism and media outlets, likely encouraged in tandem by Square's marketing department.

Based on everything I've read, (such as Masato Kato talking about the game's development) the decision to make it a spiritual successor that alluded heavily to Chrono Trigger was quite deliberate, and I think in the finished result this was far more well-executed than the most vehement critics in this thread make it out to be.

You rightly point out what media did to influence expectations. I think blame should be placed there, and not on the people who made the game.

>we are now just trying to defend a position purely on hypotheticals.
I think that the people bitter about Chrono Cross do this--the hypothetical in this case being what they wanted it to be (versus what it is.)
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>>8234980
>So game developers always need to maintain balance between artistic integrity and customer satisfaction
I honestly disagree with this notion since I don't think that in isolation it accounts for the degree in which the business/marketing realities from "above" (corporate) ultimately compromise the artistic vision developers have.

I'm not talking idealism: it's just reality and such a pervasive one that you could call it a miracle so many creative games come out of big-budget studios at all. (think Majora's Mask and Silent Hill games before that series went downhill when the development team changed following 4)

I don't think developers should feel a need to balance between artistic vision and customer satisfaction and should prioritize their vision, largely because I don't think it can even be presented by this binary. As I'm sure you'd agree game production isn't as simple as developer ---> consumer, as I just said it always goes through the corporate realities first, the only way teams are assembled and funded to begin with. This is directly relevant to Chrono Cross because I'm convinced based on what you said that the issue was really how Square insisted on marketing it. I'm actually more certain than ever the developers were right with their idea to not make it as directly linked to Chrono Trigger as, admittedly, fans expected it to be regardless.

>That's kind of the norm with sequels though to be honest.
This brings me back to questioning the very notion of a "sequel." I think the developers of Chrono Cross were right to challenge that on its face and do something new. Hell, there's even a connection to draw between this and the time travel elements. I feel like it's no accident that the one time-travel focused game Square made was also the one to have a follow-up that approached the previous game's story the way Chrono Cross did. The connections to Chrono Triggers story and characters, after all, are all influenced by the various time eras.
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>>8234984
were you having difficulty? just make sure your party has balanced elements (light <-> dark, fire <-> water, lightning <-> earth) and buy some traps. for random encounters set your best spells as low level so you can wipe them out quick, do the opposite for bosses
don't overthink it really. there's a bunch of wacky grids and shit but that doesn't matter much in practice
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>>8234980
>>8236313
>I believe the criticism between CC and CT are warranted/meaningful
Yes, but only when they're given constructively and the final product story of Chrono Cross is directly taken on its own terms, transcending the hype and expectation.

>Though I don't think it's a stretch to want a game that at least furthers the narrative from its predecessor other than "everyone died and the future they saved fucked up lol"
I see your point but I do think this is a reduction of the storyline of Chrono Cross.

The plot is flawed, but the decision to distance itself from Chrono Trigger as much as it did was sparked from a genuine creative place and not just laziness. To an extent you could say it was executed lazily, but that it was a bold move that was gracefully done to an extent too. It's a combination of both, and perhaps you can agree with that.

It's like you can feel the developers and writers struggling to bring their ideas to life given the realities of game development and production. I think anyone who has played Radical Dreamers can attest to this, seeing how many ideas they clearly had.

I think, at the end of the day, Chrono Cross did manage to take a bold creative direction and bring many of the ideas the writers had to life, while also making a meaningful connection to Chrono Trigger. This ended up with a product that was more interesting than if they had made a hypothetical direct sequel with the same characters the embittered fans had in mind. That it dissapointed some people could even speak to its merits, and that this disappointment was exacerbated by business and marketing factors can't be blamed on the people who decided to take that new direction in the first place. These distinctions are worth making.

Regardless thanks for writing all that, it's not every day you get someone disagreeing with you on a place like this that can be this constructive and respectful. I frankly expected the exact opposite sort of response (short rude replies)
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>>8235659
>Even the DS fanservice does absolute shit for correlating the characters together.
I really don't think the people who made the DS version even cared about whether or not their ideas properly meshed with CC. They likely just had a brief glance at the CC plot summary, saw some correlations with CT, and threw them in.
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>>8235659
They didn't "remove" the Magus story line, headcannon faggot. It simply wasn't included for narrative reasons. Cope/seethe/dilate/etc, Magil/Guile/Alfador has always been Magus, and furthermore, you will never be a real woman
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>>8206612
frankly, the only things i know about it is that the literal joke villain kills crono, lucca, and marle and instead of alternate time periods there's alternate dimensions. so just from the former, yeah it'd be nice if it was something else. also, i don't know why some people are comparin it to finfan when 6 doesn't have any connection to 7 either. or any of them to any of the other ones. hell, that's the reason i put off starting one of em for so long, thought they were all connected.
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>>8237561
>that spoiler text
Well then you know absolutely nothing because that literally doesn't happen.
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>>8237777
congrats to whoever posted this
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>>8237779
Lol since when did this site have an anti-get mechanism
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>>8237776
lynx burns down the orphanage. it's unclear who was in it when it was burning down but very likely lucca was and there's decent chance that her friends were
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>>8237776
what was with the ds's 13th ending then? you see homes on fire. pic related. maybe it wasn't intentional sure but like i doubt he's losing sleep over it.[/spoiler.
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>>8237870
That was depicting Porre's uprising against Guardia, as Dalton promised. All we know in Chrono Cross is that Guardia's best days are behind it, and Crono, Lucca and Marle may or may not still be alive in another timeline. Radical Dreamers takes place in yet another timeline, and in that game, Lucca only mentioned one friend passing away, implying it to take place after a Chrono Trigger scenario where Crono stayed dead. The Porre uprising still happened in Radical Dreamers I think, so you'd think she'd have mentioned Marle if it took out Guardia royalty.
I have a hunch that a lot of the DS-exclusive stuff was setting itself up to tie in to Chrono Break / Chrono Trigger 2 if the DS version sold well enough, rather than Chrono Cross.



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