Was it a good change?
>>53863183Yes. Only retards say otherwise
>>53863183Yes>but muh elemental punchesStill a good change
>>53863183No, I want my Dragonite and Tauros to shoot Hyperbeams
>>53863183Yes, it’s Kingler approved!
>>53863183>dude lets make dragon type broken lmao!No.
Yeah, it's fine.But anyone that pretends the games that predate the physical/special split are unplayable are retards and/or too young to have played them.
>>53863183We have this thread literally twice a month. Fuck off.
>>53863353>dude let’s make dragon type stay shit!Here’s your 40 damage bro
Yes and no. A lot of Pokemon suffered from it, a lot benefited from it. Frankly, I'd have preferred they just made moves automatically switch to the stronger stat of the two.
>>53863372>t. only played the game in the 3D eraGen 4 and 5 dragon could merc almost anything with impunity, even steel types wouldn't feel safe switching in on the moves
>>53863379That's boring. Why bother even having two attack stats at that point?
>>53863379holy shit you pokemon communists are insane. Why do all pokemon have to be equal in all ways? Absolutely soulless shit game design.Physical special split was a mistake because it removed a large amount of type and pokemon identity.
>>53863407I don't think there should have been to begin with desu.>>53863416>Why do all pokemon have to be equal in all waysThere's a difference between not wanting previously good pokes to get thrown in the trash and wanting equity. They fucked over my bro and I will not rest until it's rectified.
>>53863427>I don't think there should have been to begin with desu.That's also really boring, because then there's no point in having multiple defense stats. So you just switch in a wall against something that hits hard.
>>53863452What's the benefit of having physical/special?
Overall it was for the better, but there were some drawbacks too, specially minmaxing faggotry and the death of (95% of) mixed attackers
>>53863205Giga Impact exists. Cease your whining.
>>53863462Different Pokemon and different moves are better at hitting different targets. It creates for more interesting design on top of just types.
>>53863196What do you mean "but" muh elemental punches, they were the best reason to make the switch.
>>538633864th Gen was the Gen I played the most. And salamence was one of my most notable Pokémon. But I also ran mamoswine who could mangle dragons without breaking a sweat.
>>53863379>just made moves automatically switch to the stronger stat of the two.That would just make mixed attackers even more outclassed than they already are Betters fixes would be to either change the EV system so that mixed attackers have an easier time investing into both offenses. or make some moves factor in both offensive stats, mainly commonly learned moves like the Elemental Punches (maybe 75% physical 25% special). Though for the case of the punches have it so that Pokemon with certain abilities can "cheat" and just use their higher stat (like Iron Fist).
>>53863183Yes but gen 1-3 pokemon that were fucked by the change should have had their stats adjusted in gen 4 and up.Sceptile got cucked hard and really ought to have had his attack stats swapped for example.
>>53863501Having stats taper off so there's less benefit in running 252/252 would be a good start. And give neutral natures a small boost to everything so they're not literally pointless.
Presplit:>Hmmm...should I run physical Swampert to take advantage of his ground stab or special Swampert to take advantage of his water stab?>While Metagross is a physical attacker, I could invest some into its special attack to make its psychic stab useful.>*thinks* Should I set up light screen to cover my pokemon"s fire weakness or reflect to cover my pokemon's fighting weakness?>while gyarados is powerful, it's power is checked by the fact that it can't reliably use its stab>sure my mix attacker has low defense and speed, but it has the option of utilizing any coverage move regardless of its type.>What? You didn't realize that ghost being physical was cleverly done by GF to show that our ghost, our soul, is more physical than our bodies as the spiritual realm controls more about our life than the 5 senses that deceive us on a daily basis?Postsplit:>HAHAHA!! JUST PUT BOTH STABS ON SWAMPERT DUDE! STOP TRYING TO THINK CRITICALLY IN A CHILDREN'S GAME!>*crams all 252 into attack*>*puts up light screen to reflect all types*..wow..pokemon is so difficult...>What? Gyarados without water stab? LOL JUST TEACH IT WATERFALL!!!>SLOW. FRAIL. MIXED. ATTACKER.>ghosts aren't physical beings so it makes more sense to make them special. GF is just retardedThe split was Pokemon's death sentence and anyone who likes it is invariably braindead
>The phys/spec split resident schizo still haunts this board
>>53863478Gengarfags and Alakazamfags
>the anti-splitchad still graces this board
>>53863562>Hmmm...should I run physical Swampert to take advantage of his ground stab or special Swampert to take advantage of his water stab?neither, presplit you run mixed swapert with EVs in HP and both defenses with both Ground and Water stabs>While Metagross is a physical attacker, I could invest some into its special attack to make its psychic stab useful.Metagross still did this in gen 4, as Zen Headbutt was 10BP weaker than psychic. More recently it did this since it carried Grass Knot because of Tough Claws>*thinks* Should I set up light screen to cover my pokemon"s fire weakness or reflect to cover my pokemon's fighting weakness?ideally you'd be doing both>while gyarados is powerful, it's power is checked by the fact that it can't reliably use its stabGyarados has never -not- been good, and its main problems weren't its stabs (water STAB was never that particularly useful back then), its problems were a shallow movepool and Zapdos ruling OU. Today Gyarados is balanced by its terrible speed stat making it reliable on Dragon Dance>sure my mix attacker has low defense and speed, but it has the option of utilizing any coverage move regardless of its type.low defenses and speed means your mixed attacker will never get the chance to benefit from its coverage. A pokemon can either be defensive or fast, if it's neither, it's shit. There were no SFMA in gen 3 OU so this is a moot point>What? You didn't realize that ghost being physical was cleverly done by GF to show that our ghost, our soul, is more physical than our bodies as the spiritual realm controls more about our life than the 5 senses that deceive us on a daily basis?This is retarded. It's because the only non-fixed damage, non-status ghost move in gen 1 was Lick
>>53863562>HAHAHA!! JUST PUT BOTH STABS ON SWAMPERT DUDE! STOP TRYING TO THINK CRITICALLY IN A CHILDREN'S GAME!as I said before, Swampert always carried both stabs, even back then>*crams all 252 into attack*not only has Swampert never crammed all 252 into attack, as it needs HP investment and bulk investment as well, but plenty of pokemon in gen 3 also invested 252 into their respective attacking stat>*puts up light screen to reflect all types*..wow..pokemon is so difficult...this implies that in gen 3 something like Light Screen would always protect you from something like Arcanine, a pokemon with a special stat but always ran physical or mixed sets. Just like today, Reflect and Light Screen can be exploited by attacking with the opposite category>What? Gyarados without water stab? LOL JUST TEACH IT WATERFALL!!!Not sure what the point is here>SLOW. FRAIL. MIXED. ATTACKER.was already a thing in gen 3 and they sucked just as bad back then. The prime example, Cacturne, was NU in its debut generation>ghosts aren't physical beings so it makes more sense to make them special. GF is just retardedalso not sure what the point here is, there are both special and physical ghost moves, that's the whole point of the split
>>53863183Yes, the split was good. While they’re at it they should just remove the special stats altogether. Just make every Pokemon equally good at everything so I don’t have to think.
>>53863549>And give neutral natures a small boost to everything so they're not literally pointless.the point is that they don't drop any stats.
>>53863726So? A Pokemon is almost never going to use all 6 of its stats.
>Gyarados shouldn't get physical water moves because...IT JUST SHOULDN'T OKAY???Great argument, antisplitcucks
>Gyarados shouldn't get physical water moves because...it’s already one of the best Pokemon in the game, and having to get players to think if they want to invest resources into special attack to use water moves adds extra strategy and depth to the gameGreat argument, antisplitchads
>>53863183Honestly I'm glad it's gone. Not because it was instantly a dogshit system but it definitely gives early gens, particularly Gen 3 a unique battle system that I casually like Showdowning on. Many mons nowadays who otherwise ran the most generic shit possible, had to basically sorta make do with the options available.Really the only Pokemon I'd say suffered hard-core was Salamence. It went from being a unique "Jack of all trades" offensive mon to just clicking on physical moves on most viable sets. Call me a presplit retard but you have to admit the power creep in Gen 3 was just right partially thanks to the split.
>>53863749>it’s already one of the best Pokemon in the gameit never was though, it got anal raped by anything running Thunderbolt or HP Electric which pre-split was nearly everything. It was good but very balanced
>>53863755>IT HAS WEAKNESSES SO IT’S BAD!! I HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME BEYOND LE TYPE CHART!Typical campaigntard who’s terrible at the game and never touches PvP in his life
>>53863759it's funny you should say that when I specifically mentioned Hidden Power Electric which is a move you won't find during the campaign. But hey, take it with whoever wrote Gyarados's Smogon bio, I'm sure you're a better pokemon player than they are
>>53863749>it’s already one of the best Pokemon in the gameHaving physical water moves wouldn't make it overpowered and would actually make having water typing meaningful>and having to get players to think if they want to invest resources into special attack to use water moves adds extra strategy and depth to the gameNobody runs mixed gyarados and never has; it's a dragon dance machine that will carry shit like earthquake and hidden power pre split>>53863759>IT CAN ACTUALLY MAKE USE OF ITS STAB TYPING AND HIGHEST ATTACK STAT SO IT'S OVERPOWEREDTypical contrarian tranny just saying shit to sound smart
>>53863183Overall, yes. But god, do I wish GF would fix the Pokemon it fucked over.
>>53863755>Had intimidate to increase physical bulk>Water/Flying gave it a value immunity to spikes and ground moves>"MUH NO FLYING STAB" Just fucking slap HP Flying if you gave that much of a shit.>DDance alone gave a lot of its physical pool milage and slightly patched up its shitty speed Stat.It has shit going for it makes it runnable without water stab or the meme weakness.
>>53863765>fanfic garbageDon’t care.>>53863772> Having physical water moves wouldn't make it overpoweredYes it would.> and would actually make having water typing meaningfulIt already is meaningful.> Nobody runs mixed gyarados and never hasYeah, I’m sure people who don’t play the game think this.
>>53863791>"MUH NO FLYING STAB" Just fucking slap HP Flying if you gave that much of a shit.congrats, now you can't touch Zapdos
>>53863792>Don’t care.so you don't think people ran HP Electric mons in VGC? and you call me the campaign fag?
>>53863797HP Rock exists if you got some boosts up and your team was able to wear down majority of its checks. If you literally 1v1 a Zapdos without any boosts then that's actual autism on your part.
>>53863792Smogon is the only relevant format for RSE, retard>Yes it would.How?>It already is meaningful.How?>Yeah, I’m sure people who don’t play the game think this.You clearly don't, unless you think your surf gyarados holding up against braindead npcs means anything.
So if having physical water moves makes Gyarados broken, how came it’s never been broken since it got them?
>>53863808>HP Rock existsbut now you don't have Flying stab
>>53863792>fanfic garbageOh I’m sorry, let’s talk about RSE VGC oh wait
>>53863811it's cute that you think there was ever a legitimate argument from antisplitfags and not just contrarianism for (You)s
>>53863812>but now you don't have Flying stabIt's sometimes valuable to have Rock over Flying for that singular match-up alone. It's a valuable coverage option. And it's worth not having Flying HP anyways with that in mind when with just 1 or 2 boosts you're absolutely cream filling most mons anyways.>>53863797congrats, now you can't touch ZapdosYeah if you run Flying HP, which in most cases you should, that's my other teammates job retard.
>>53863792So you are anti campaignfag AND anti smogonfag? You’re giving some serious mixed signals. Gen 1 Gyrados was not at all a good Pokémon compared to Taurus/Snorlax/Chansey/Starmie/Alakazam/Eggy and was shat on by zapdosGen 2 Gyrados was also shat on by the top dog Pokémon, which included raikou on top of zapdosGen 3 Gyrados was okay. That’s strictly because it had dragon dance, really.Gen 4 Gyrados was awesome, and my favorite powerhouse to use. It still had to beware of electricity, burns, stealth rocks and rock coverage, like machamp’s stone edge, but it was hitting its stride and finally felt like the leviathan you were supposed to get from raising a stupid Magikarp
I wonder if antisplitard realizes you can run mixed sets if you want? You can always run Surf and Earthquake on Swampert without issue. Just use Surf and Earthquake on your Swampert, or Rock Slide and Dark Pulse on your Tyranitar.
>>53863856Except now, they're no longer viable and the game has become significantly dumbed down because of it.
>>53863864Infernape, Salamence and Swampert were fantastic mixed attackers in Gen 4. Even tyranitar could run fireblast to kill scizors. The bigger culprit at play here is the minmaxed stat power creep of Gen 5+, offensively and defensively
>>53863864>Except now, they're no longer viablethey're equally as viable as they were before since not a single move listed in >>53863856 has changed from physical to special or vice versa
>>53863183Technically, there's no real difference. Pre-split and post-split are just a difference in flavour. But if I had to name one thing I dislike about post-split, it's how it made move context worse.It necessitated a bunch of nonsense filler moves because they couldn't figure out what to fill niches with.>Shadow ClawOh wow it fucking uses random "shadow" energy to claw something. Totally didn't pull that one out of their ass. Ghosts are defined by being supernatural, they aren't elemental.And also how inconsistent the split is.>Razor Leaf and Leaf Storm are somehow Physical>Leaf Tornado is Special because it just is, okay?!At least pre-split it was just one and done, yep, all moves of this type are the same damage type. No inconsistency there, even if the categories can be arbitrary in a few cases.
It wasn't good, but it wasn't bad either. Allowing more Pokemon to effectively use their STAB and coverage isn't bad inherently. But bloating the move roster by needing relatively comparable equivalents of physical/special at varying base power levels hasn't helped the game either. The fact a lot of the Pokemon hurt by the split that didn't deserve it (Alakazam absolutely deserved it, fight me) still haven't really been patched up hurts it as well. But it's definitely simpler to remember the move you have currently equipped with a little symbol on it instead of remembering what type of damage this type of move is. So there's good and bad points to the split and it has nothing to do with what the antisplit schizo goes on about.
>>53863856Another reason why Unova is superior to all Johto games
>>53863887>Oh wow it fucking uses random "shadow" energy to claw somethingYou're acting like shadow ball and shadow punch didn't exist before gen 4
>>53863883So you admit the split did nothing to help the game.>>53863886Yes, and the game suffered anyway because the split pushes people to just mindlessly slap on STABs and call it a day.It doesn't matter if those moves exist if no one is here to use them.
>>53864028Without the slipt, Infernape has less options. It would be forced to use Fire Blast and Close Combat instead of Flare Blitz and Focus Blast :^)
>>53863887>shadow ball is a lump of ghost energy thrown at the target>special>pyro ball is a ball of fire energy kicked at the target>physical
>>53864096Pyro ball's just a ball of energy, it's a stone charged with energy
>>53864106*pyro ball isn't
>>53864106It's 1% stone and 99% fire.
>>53864028It must be tiring moving the goalposts depending on who you're talking to.
I find it more fun to make movesets for pokemon pre-split because there are more tradeoffs. Post-split I always end up with the same movesets because the rest are exclusively inferior. For me the split was just powercreep, widening the gap between good Pokemon and shitmons. I love shitmons and it's far easier for them to get destroyed by an overpowered Pokemon post-split. The split just dumbs down the game and makes it trivial.
>>53863379I think the better option at this point is doing away with the EV training system and keeping the AV system from Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee. It'll rebalance Calyrex and Zacian so they won't outspeed every other offense Pokemon and OHKO them blindly, and it will give Zen Mode Darmanitan a second chance.
I don't like the number 69. Post #70.Also I do like the physical special split because now Hitmonchan can Fire Punch. (before the split the elemental punches looked like Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam except in punch form) That being said going back to Generation III, the lack of physical/special split is sometimes fun.
>>53863183Was a great change, the best thing to happen to pokemon right before the franchise took a nosedive with the next gen.
>>53864069Yes. Less options is actually good, because it allows people's creativity to flourish. Nowadays there are plenty of options to build a team, but zoomers brainlessly slap on muh STAB because that's what the split makes them do.>>53864494It must be tiring losing to me for, what is it now? 5 years? Half a decade and you still haven't been able to tell me how the split improved the game.
>>53863183Generally yes, the mistake was going through and adding readily available, template 80-90 bp or better, 100 accuracy moves for every type and stat.People bemoan Physical Electric and Physical Ghost, or Special Rock, but MORE types should have awkward holes like that, instead of most types just having A move that 99% of pokemon with the type and stat trend can count on having.However Inwould still take the split over how things were before
>>53863183noonly retards disagree
>>53863416why do unviable pokémon have to exist? why should I be punished for playing with my favorite mon when the game pushes this idea that any pokémon can become your best friend?
>>53863416It's the zoomer gacha brainwashing.They're used to games where Character has Stat, and all Characters have Stat. Number go up, and all number means dopamine. Everything scales to everything, stats may as well not exist, and often they actually don't because the characters often have a "total stat value" or some shit so you don't even have to be taxed to understand the 3 or 4 stats the game was able to reduce down to, you just look at what the game tells you and compare that to the number for your event.
>Alakazam gen 3 Smogon>every set has Psychic Huh? I thought STAB was le bad?
>>53863470Hyper Beam is cooler than giga impactGiga Impact is the most forced move in the game, it has never once looked strong or cool.Brave bird looks like it's a stronger attack than Giga Impact. Fuck, Double Edge looks like it hits harder most of the time.Hyper Beam always looks cool as shit. It's perfect.
>>53863792Go home Verlis you're drunk
>>53865145Not just visuals.Sound design is important too, and Giga Impact sounds like shit, tooThe moves are fucking atrocious, anon, the only reason to use them is style, and Giga Impact has none.
>>53864609These kinds of takes are interesting to me from a gane design perspective.How would you feel about a system where rather than direct control over the monster's stat growth, you instead pump values into one of 6 attributes which then grow certain stats. Then, you have moves that scale off if certain Attributes. So as a better explanation, you have:Constitution (Affects HP & Def.)Strength (Strength Atk. & Def.)Dexterity (Dex Atk & Speed)Arcane (Arc S. Atk)Wisdom (Wis. S. Atk & S. Def)Luck (Crit Res, etc...)Def will defend against the Physical Affinities (Str and Dex)And S. Def defends against the Special ones (Arc and Wis).If you notice, the Atk stat is split 4 ways, this is cause there actually isn't an Attack stat, you instead have Str, Dex, Arc, Wis, and moves will scale off of those depending on which one the move has an affinity to. In other words, the calculation for Damage is now Damage + Affinity which it scales - the respective Def Stat. However, when you pump values into one of the attributes, you raise some of that monster's stats. So there's always somewhat of a compromise.I think this could get interesting, as rather than pump into Atk and Speed directly to have a speedy physical attacker, you instead pump it straight into Dex which will naturally raise speed as well. Then you design Dex scaling moves to have certain properties, since they're naturally different from Str moves. Think Focus Punch vs. Fury Swipes or Aerial Ace. This creates a nice balance too as Str monsters naturally also raising defense makes them a hard counter to Dex monsters, who are naturally powerful against Arc monsters, who have an advantage against Str monsters by bypassing the Def Stat and hitting S.Def instead. And ofc, you can split your stat growth for better coverage but this comes at the cost of not fully maximizing your output perhaps.I think this could be an interesting system. Your criticism of the split made me think of this.
>>53865518>Turning Pokemon into D&DogshitHow about you don't?
>>53865039Yes, it's rather hard to beat a pigeon at chess. That's why people should learn to not take your bait instead of arguing for hours.
>>53863887At least it made the Dark moves make sense.
>>53866164Well, if it's for the better...
>>53865518The problem with systems like this is that often your Dex or Agility stat ends up overstressed (ironically just having both a Dex stat and an Agi stat makes the issue better, but leads into the next) and Luck is almost never a stat worth investing in unless you are literally out of points to put anywhere else.Persona Q and Fallout NV are the only games I have played where Luck is a good stat that you would actually want as a primary stat. Persona Q moreso. Another problem, and one that pokemon already faces, is over specification for offensive stats, where if you don't plan on using the offensive stat, you have no reason to put anything into it. An Attack stat of 20 and an Attack stat of 50 have basically no difference, ect.
>>53865139Gee idk, not like Psychic was SPECIAL and it has a huge SPECIAL stat and it just so happens to be a stab option because alakazam is a psychic type. You know, where most of the mons are SPECIAL?>>53865129Because that's how competitive metagames work. They will always be horrendous Pokemons whenever you like it or not, and power creep will eventually always push what was once stellar further down tiers. However you got to also consider that Gamefreak sucks shit when it comes to balancing their dogshit game "MUH VGC MUH ZOOMERS" so the chances of any of your favorite shitmons ever being good besides the cop-out regional form that exists as a roundabout way to buff a Pokemon without explicitly touching it is zero.The split has its issues but generally balanced compared to the clusterfucker we have now. And it's only going to get worse because Gamefreak has no sense of what makes competitive Pokemon good anymore.>>53865119I get that having a asymmetrical way of physical special split is nice because itll be boring if everything had it's own CC variant and that'll make post Split even more bland. But it's actually ludicrous that physical Electric and Ghost types are absolutely gatekept from having very reliable STAB options.
>>53866502>But it's actually ludicrous that physical Electric and Ghost types are absolutely gatekept from having very reliable STAB options.Currently, yes, I agree.The standard is every type gets access to very good, widely available clones of Shadow Ball, Psychic, Surf, ect, and so those omissions are just obnoxious. There's really no reason there's not an appropriate move for those types, considering how forced some moves are anyways, and how readily old moves of other types have been buffed. If Leech Life can just replace X-Scissor, then there's really no reason Shadow Punch can't be buffed to Aura Sphere's statline, and we can't get Electric Headbutt to give us a Zen Headbutt clone or something equally barely adequate.However, I'd use those as a blueprint for how to approach more type/stat alignments, with some types having limited ability to use "good" moves of those types and stats, with good moves being much more pokemon or bodyplan specific, if I could pull the whole thing down. Like, spitballing, Grass just not having good physical moves, unless you had a nice edge for Leaf Blade, to mirror how Special Rock is "better hope you have a gemstone somewhere, fucko", or make Special Ground have to revolve around mud, and not getting the easy out through Earth Power, which is literally just Earthquake anyways.
>>53863183i'm neutral about it but still prefer old ways.
>>53866502Game Freak is somewhat in the right for keeping ghost-types from having good moves. They can get out of hand really quick.
>>53865039>Half a decadeyou've been doing this shit for half a decade? get a life, dude.
I think it makes sense overall but I dont think the old system was bas inherently, its just that GF was stupid and didn’t design the game around it. Moves that were clearly meant to be physical were special- forgetting the elemental punches- there’s still shit like Crunch and Dragon Claw. For proof of this, consider the fact that all Dark moves that existed before gen 4 were changed to physical attacks. Overall though, less restriction is better an anyone who thinks the split was bad is 100% a trolling contrarian.
>>53863353What does that have to do with the split?
>>53863427>they fucked over my broNidoking is… good, though? Not sure the issue here.
>>53865039Your whole argument is based on this idea that less options is le good but that only works if you believe the only options that can be presented to the player through this game are through the physical and special splits. The problem is Game Freak now gives Pokemon their best STABs so early in the game. The split is more of a clarification fix because it makes no sense for certain types to not have physical or special attacks. You telling me Blaze Kick should be special just because? The split allows for more opportunities for GF to be creative with the designs of their Pokemon- the problem is that they… didnt.
>>53865039>>53866739There are still plenty of Pokemon who dont use STABs. Dragonite for example was often found with just EQ and Ice Punch in newer gens.
>>53866747Is that your only example?
>>53863183Yes, but calling it that is retarded.
>>53866622I can understand where you're coming from. Ghost types are arguably the best netrual damaging type in the game right now. However imo I feel like besides Dragapult being a huge offender if it got a physical ghost stab option other than phantom force, physical ghost is a lot more tame than special ghost. Like besides it and Marshadow, the entire physical ghost type roster has either been supremely power crept or is absolutely ass (poor Banette). So I don't think it'll be THAT bad. As long as they don't buff the special side as much as it is right now, we are in a good spot. >>53866589This system is kinda good. Though honestly the only genuine way to fix this huge gap between some arctypes is to simply BTFO IVs and just add more EVs you can use. That way, we can bring back the customization of movepools of Gen 3 without going back to the split. Have everyone be able to dive into either offensive stat. There's no reason for Reiniculus for example to have such a decent physical pool, but it's attack stat is so shit it can't use any of it.Td;lr, expand on the EV idea, much like how LGPE kinda did.
>>53866778Basculegion and Annihilape disagree, but both are carried pretty hard by their mostly-signature moves.
>>53863751Salamence is still “jack of all trades”. Mixed sets are still viable as Draco Meteor and Fire Blast have high BP + free Moxie boosts against physical walls
>>53866762Point is its more of an issue of how GF designs moves and pokemon and not one inherent to the split
>>53865039>Less options is good because it allows people to flourishYes, Unown, Pokemon known for how many creative sets it can make. In contrast to Mew, who can pretty much run any set never once sees creative sets.
>>53866789I think that anon has a point, but he argues it poorly. The more recent games don't have a lot of experimentation for movesets. You pick 2-4 of the best moves for your "correct" attacking stat and completely ignore the other. There is seldom value in mixed attackers when you can just over-specialize in one stat over two. There's still the odd Fire Blast Garchomp, but that's more of an exception than a rule.
>>53866641I do have a life, though. Of BTFOing splittrannies nonstop. Thanks for the concession.>>53866739It's not the entirety of my argument, it's only specific to that post.>The problem is Game Freak now gives Pokemon their best STABs so earlyYes, which is not an issue if players aren't incentivized to just use those STABs. Swampert can run Surf, but it can also run a more physically oriented set or it can run neither or it can run both. The split just tells Swampert it can run its STABs with no limitations. Limitation is the birth of necessity, the mother of creation.>The split is more of a clarification fix Right, which is why Razor Leaf is physical, Wring Out is special, or Struggle Bug is special. But obviously you're going too far if a move where the user cloaks its leg in fire and the main damage component of the move is fire and the mechanism of the move is delivering fire onto the opponent with a kick isn't special. >>53866747Because of fairy types neutering Dragon and Dragonite not having any good Flying moves.Dragonite was a huge Outrage spammer back in the day and when Gen 8 introduced Dual Wingbeat it used that. The split can't make a mon use STABs it doesn't know or shouldn't use due to circumstances beyond a mon's control. I'll allow you that much. But in 99% of cases, the split encourages bad behavior from retarded zoomies. It's like saying a house was burned down by a fire so it's the fire's fault, instead of the owner leaving the stove on in the first place.
>>53866796But Unown only has one real option for a set, Choice Specs Hidden Power Psychic. Was this really your best attempt at a gotcha? And it's funny you bring up Mew, a Pokemon that has so many options for sets but ultimately just uses status or hazards or some nonsense post-split whereas in pre split in genuinely was one of the most versatile Pokemon ever.
>>53866799Again I dont think this is a function of the physical/special split. Even in gens 1-3 pokemon primarily used Strongest STAB they could get + normal moves. It is more fun to use Pokemon that can use moves of their actual type, I don’t necessarily see this as an issue. If anything its a game design issue. I just recently replayed Yellow and wanted to use both Starmie and Exeggutor- but I had to decide between which should get to know Psychic since you only get one TM. I decided on Exeggutor since atleast Starmie gets Surf/Blizzard to rely on. Nowadays both Pokemon get access to a wide breadth of moves so its not really an issue.What is more fun to me is the process of building a Pokemon that has a fun set. Being forced to just use whatever highest BP Normal move you get because your Pokemon gets no stabs or coverage moves for it’s preferred attacking stat just isnt very fun. Im using Heracross in a crystal rn with Horn Attack / Fury Cutter / Reversal. It mostly clicks Horn Attack but having those two STABs is nice to have in the right contexts, and have effects that change up how you approach the battle. I think this was the intention for how Pokemon was meant to be approached.
>>53866786Those are the exception to the norm. They're signature moves and doesn't solve the physical ghost problem. All it does is just slap a bandaid by just simply adding onto the bloat and thus further making any other ghost type who runs physical ghost stab unusuable in comparison. They also require a bit of setup to get going and if you're a smogonfaggot, which at least 60% of this board is, LP is banned anyways and ape is Ubers material. Also Basculegion doesn't even need LP because Adapt/Swift Swim Wave Crash sets are enough to completely rip mons a new asshole. The physical ghosts problem isn't fixed cause Gayfreak simply added 2 gimmick mons like dangling keys.>>53866788I mean yeah sure, but you have to lean into either or to get the most out of Salamence. And if you run Moxie why the fuck aren't you going full physical/Ddance? It's physical pool is good enough to completely rape a lot of Pokemons. Special is for faggots and with the existence of Moxie and Ddance there's no other reasons to run special unless you want to take down certain checks.
>>53866839Attacking the foe with leaves so sharp they PHYSICALLY cut you makes perfect sense for a Physical move. Struggle Bug is so vague that its not really clear what it even is. Trying to make the argument that Blaze Kick’s main method of damaging is fire and not a fucking KICK is pretty fucking stupid, plus youre ignoring the plethora of other very obviously physical attacks that were special for some reason:-Bite-Crunch-Pursuit-Thief-Knock Off-Dragon Claw-Leaf Blade-Waterfall-Elemental PunchesAnd the reverse:-Shadow Ball-Sludge Bomb-Mud ShotYou also dont answer the very obvious question which is: why is it bad for players to use their Pokemons STABs? There are other metrics for “choice” when it comes to determining your moveset for each Pokemon. Moves with secondary effects, moves that combo with other moves or abilities, do I want coverage or a boosting move? If my opponent has a chansey, maybe I’d prefer to run a physical move instead of special, even if my attack is lower.Your thinking is too binary.
>>53866796It's a shitmon anon, abysmal stats and solely exists to collect the Alphabet with non-existent rewards. Try again.
>>53866865>I dont think this is a function of the physical/special splitIt is, most types now have reliable damaging moves for both attack stats. And those that don't are absolute bottom-tier shitmons. There are still some unicorns like Nidoking or Dragapult, but how often does a physical electric mon hit OU?>pokemon primarily used Strongest STAB they could getThey used what was available, but often didn't have everything available to use.>It is more fun to use Pokemon that can use moves of their actual typeI just think it lessens the depth of the combat a bit.I like limited TMs too, but there should be ways for the player to replenish them in postgame when movesets start to matter more.
>>53866902We'll just have to wait and see if Poltergeist comes back as a DLC tutor or something. That move was genuinely good last gen, and they had the proper foresight to not give it to Dragapult.
>>53866666>less restriction is betterWhy?In game design rules and restrictions are the gameplay's engine.Also checked.
>>53866862Woah! It’s like as if having a large movepool actually leads to more possibilities! And having no movepool does not infact let your creativity flourish, it just means you have significantly less options. It, get this, like people who simply just use the best possible set the most instead of the shit gimmick sets Smogon used to just put on old analysis because they were younger and less serious about the game! Those “creative” mixed attacking sets, which you can still use today, were actually dogshit and rarely used! That’s crazy!
>>53866905>Attacking the foe with leaves so sharp they PHYSICALLY cut youSo what's the difference between that and Frenzy Plant or Petal Dance?>Struggle Bug is so vagueLiterally says the user struggles. Physically, for punctuation.>Trying to make the argument that Blaze Kick’s main method of damaging is fire Really? When the move itself is classed as a fire type move? Interesting.>Bite>CrunchAre formed by energy jaws of darkness, as shown in Colosseum or the anime.>Pursuit>-Thief>Knock OffWhat was that you just said? These moves are too vague to understand what's going on.>-Dragon ClawDraconian energy, something that's even established in game.>-Leaf BladeSee above.>WaterfallVague. Waterfall in some games literally is depicted as just dropping a waterfall on the opponent.>Elemental PunchesSame thing as Blaze Kick.>Shadow BallIt's a ball of ectoplasm formed by the ghost's corporeal form.Why is Shadow Sneak physical? It's depicted as the user attacking with their shadow.>Sludge Bomb>Mud ShotOh, so now if the user is hitting you with a physical ball of sludge it's le bad thing?>why is it bad for players to use their Pokemons STABsBecause it dumbs down the game and enables retarded zoomers to have a foothold in this franchise, which drags the rest of it down. I am repeating the exact same thing I said from the moment I started. You have never been able to overcome me.
>>53866910>>53866937I didnt say less restriction is better. My point is that you can have *more* restriction in other ways that arent via the physical/special split. Yes, less restriction can lead to creativity but so could, like, just making the game better and giving Pokemon an assortment of useful tools that are good in certain contexts. At a point, too much restriction for the sake of restriction is just unfun.
>>53866938>large movepool actually leads to more possibilities!Right, without the presence of the split.>And having no movepoolSure, but Unown is a uniquely singular case and most Pokemon pre split had a movepool large enough to work with but limited enough that they wouldn't just slap on STABs and call it a day.
>>53866947You dumbfucks can make these arguments all day, pulling out headcanon for what physical and special even means since its so poorly defined. Your responses are pretty fucking stupid though >bite/crunch being formed of jaws of energyYeah, no. There is nothing in game to suggest that beyond the animation which only exists because they couldnt animate each Pokemon physically biting the opponent. >really when the move itself is classed as a fire-type moveIts also classed as a phyiscal attack. In fact, you are “overcome” in all these examples by the fact that GF themselves decided that they are physical.>Because it dumbs down the game and enables retarded zoomers to have a foothold in this franchise, which drags the rest of it down. This has nothing to do with the phys/spec split. Your anger at casulization and power creep is misplaced
>>53866952>I didnt say less restriction is betterBut you did, I quoted you. Less restriction isn't necessarily better. It can very easily be worse.
>>53866983>since its so poorly definedNot really. Pre split defined things very concretely. It's post split where you have this tranny circular logic nonsense "I BELIEVE I'm a woman because I do" "I BELIEVE Sacred Fire is physical because I do" "I BELIEVE Icicle Crash is physical because I do".It's even funnier when you introduce something like Z-Moves which show GF themselves still believe in pre split mechanics but know if they ever reversed their mistake there would be mass riots.>Yeah, no. There is nothing in game to suggest thatThe animation of the move in Colosseum shows a huge purple jaw materializing out of thin air. In fact the animations even support this because Crunch has a bigger jaw animation, implying more dark type energy is used to create it, not that the Pokemon somehow gets bigger.>Its also classed as a phyiscal attackYou will never be a woman. The split will never be real.>Your anger at casulization I don't care about casualization. I care about what happens when a nation who grew up on fluoridated water and black cum inherits the earth. The split is an indicative problem of zoomer mentality threatening to destroy the country I know and love.
>>53863427The whole reason Nidoking is an interesting Pokemon is because it can use Sheer Force to make up for its lower Special Attack stat. Making only one attack stat would remove all that depth.
>>53864096Pyro Ball is physical because Cinderace uses its strength to kick it.
>>53866918Yeah really retarded to not include SwSh dlc moves. Poltergeist was what the physical typing needed and it was also smart to not give it to Dragapult. Since infiltratior somewhat makes Phantom Force less shit. Hoping swsh dlc moves do come back cause there was no reason to even remove it to begin with.
>>53867024>antispliters would rather have crunch be a big lame jaw of energy instead of their pokemon being chads and actually using their fangsDumb as fuck. L.
>>53867112How is the Pokémon not using its fangs?
>>53867132You literally just said the attack is using jaws of energy that materialize from thin air. What part of that involves actual fangs?
>>53863749But Alakazam should get Psychic because...?
>>53866437>The problem with systems like this is that often your Dex or Agility stat ends up overstressedCould you elaborate what you mean?The intention I had is something akin to what you often see in Souls games. Which, I think in a monster game like Pokemon it's easier to fix because the monsters themselves already have natural growths, you're just pumping a little extra into specific stats. So it balances much better overall, especially in combination with their learnpools.Likewise, because a stat like Def is a hard counter to a Dex build, you open a few more options.Also, I didn't mention either of these, but the battle system would change toward being something more like the FFX battle system, where there's no real "turns" persay, but rather the actors are moving on a timeline, and ofc, you'd have ways to mess with turn orders outside of the speed stat, and buffs/debuffs to speed. Think of "Stun" from Darkest Dungeon as an example, or other similar mechanics in other games where certain attacks will "push" their target back on a timeline on a successful hit.This is where the Luck stat also comes in, as it would affect more than just your crit Res, but also increase the chances of secondary effects on your moves and abilities triggering, as well as provide better odds on "coinflips" if you will.Again, I've been well aware of just how busted Speed has been in Pokemon, but a huge reason for that I think is how reliant the simultaneous turn combat system is on "who gets to go first."A system that's more flexible at determining actions, that also heavily nerfs the potential damage output of speed specialists in certain matchups, I think could go a long way.At least on paper. I'll continue to work it out till I can build it in engine.
>>53866164I never once said anything about Pokemon anon. But I also don't think that copying a fundamentally flawed system is the best approach if you wanna do your own thing. On the contrary branching out and exploring new ideas beyond just "Pokemon but" is the best way to provide an experience that's fresh but also familiar.
No, it was very fucking stupid when all that needed to be fixed was making Fire type Physical and Ghost type Special
>>53867186Because it’s a Psychic type.
>>53867397Why does Alakazam deserve a strong move with STAB bonus working off its stronger offensive stat while Gyarados doesn't?
>>53867433And almost perfect coverage with the elemental punches, dont forget that : )
>>53867433Cause Alakazam deserves it and much more for being a much better Pokemon than Gyarados ever could be. Imagine whataboutism for Gyarados mindlessly spamming water spam when it was already doing fine on its own pre gen 4, and without the water stab NOR any flying stab besides HP Flying no less.
>>53867024Nobody mentioned trannies but go off
The #1 best upgrade in all of pokemon, yes
>>53866778Dragapult gets fucked in the ass without specs and is pseudo good because everythinf around it is better the only time I put in work with dragapult is if the opponent has no answer to shadow ball fuck dragapult let's go misdreavus thorn iron dick if you pop a sash on her she..... Did I type SHE I mean XE because iron futa misdreavus has no gender with a sash she will clean up after dragapult makes a sticky mess out of trying to do ANYTHING in singles BATTLE STADIUM 3v3 if you faint anything to a dragapult ur fucking garbage, physical drag is gay as hell too and sucks
>>53868462>Dragapult gets fucked in the ass without specs>physical drag is gay as hell too and sucksOpinion discarded, you're just a whipped smogontard that has no idea how to play the game.Special dragapult sucks cock