did gen 2 have the worst NPC level curve>beat the first gym with level 15 pokemon>still meet level 8 NPC
Before the exp share pokemon was meant to be played by exclusively levelling 1 pokemon (usually the starter) and catching addition pokemon on routes when needed for HMs. So no it was rather balanced.
>>53081644No, you're meant to fill your team out at relatively the same rate that Gym Leaders gain Pokemon.
>>53081614no. Gym Leaders are higher level than nearby NPC's happens in nearly all Pokemon games. at worst, the overall levels in Gen 2 raise slower than most because the Elite 4 caps out at a lower level to make room for the Kanto Segement (which admittedly has its own set of problems). IT can be argued thatGen2 doesn't give as much EXP as other regions meaning you may be "underleveled" for certain bosses if you don't go out of your way to grind a couple levels, but if you seriously need to match or exceed the level of gym leaders to defeat them, you genuinely don't know how to play Pokémon effectively. >>beat the first gym with level 15 pokemonFalkner's Pidgeot is level 9, unless you're referring to your own Pokémon being level 15 and if that's the case, that would happen in any Pokemon game if you only use one Pokemon.
>>53081683>Pidgeot Pidgeotto (their naming is so dumb)
>>53081614>>beat the first gym with level 15 pokemonSo you didn't play the game?
>>53081649No, the games were made for kids. Kids pick one or two and go with them because they realize more levels = better and grinding levels = pain. That's why the exp share was only for one pokemon in the past.
>Red killing himself on Mt. Silver as I solo his team with my level 100 Spinarak
>>53081644>Before the exp sharehuh, exp share was a thing since gen 1
>>53081701Except it wasn't. The original Exp Share was EXP All in gen 1.
>>53081726basado, I kneel
>>53081790I meant the team level exp share
>>53081614No. Unova’s worse.
>>53081614Level curve isnt an issue in gen 2 due to bade boost. You can have a full team of 6 at avg lvl 37 and beat the league. Hgss its a grindfest.
>>53081614No, you're just another NPC parroting another Jewtuber's opinions. All of us who grew up with the game never had this problem because it wasn't and isn't a problem.Hoennfags forever trying to nitpick because they can't accept that their favorite gen sucks.
>>53081614Nah, it was way worse in swooshit.
I've played with chikortia and I don't usually get to evolve it until around the second gym and that's with me battling every single trainer. So unless you're just using the starter I don't think 15 is the right number
What pokemon game had the BEST level curve, then?
>>530819784 and 5, because cynthia and iris will bully you if you don't grind
>>53082038I too played bw2 when I was 7
>>53081798Yea it was called EXP All in gen 1
The level curve is about fine in gen 2.Your pokemon end up being extremely overpowered if they are anywhere close to the actual levels of your opponents.It's why you beat red with a team of barely level 60s, if even.
>>53082088This. There are real issues with GSC, but the level curve isn’t one of them. The only part that sucks is that wild mon are found at too low level ranges in some areas, so grinding for Stadium (I know no one here has even kek) and changing team composition take longer than they should. If we want to discuss mechanical issues, we can talk about the physical / special types + the special stat split and how these were poorly implemented on some pokemon. Game Freak proved to be incompetent at balancing very early on (literally Gen 1).
>>53083126>the levels curve isn't oneof them>the only bad part is wild mons being too low levelThat's... Literally what most people mean when they talk about the level curve being a problem.
>>53081614>Gym leader: level 9-13>Trainers on next route: 6-10Seems good to me. It’s a bit wonky, sure, but I’ve always felt the level curve complaints were pretty overblown
>>53081614actually, it's more like this:>beat the seventh gym with level 34 pokemon>still meet level 20 npc
>>53081958>Hoennfags forever trying to nitpick because they can't accept that their favorite gen sucks.You almost had me but you just HAD to insult the best gen.
>>53083352You forgot to mention how those NPCs can be fought before the 4th gym. All the ones that require surf (Save the rocket hideout, which is the only area that I’ll admit is too weak) have Pokémon in their early to mid 20s
>>53083366He's slightly off but right though.The radio tower takeover doesn't happen until you beat seven gyms.And the grunts there have Pokemon as low as level 21, at a time where you've already beaten Jasmine and her level 35 Steelix.
>>53083338Most people are mistaken on their terminology then - that's not a level curve problem. You shouldn't need to be grinding on wild Pokemon - if you do need to, you fucked up somewhere along the line. That's a you problem, not a Game Freak problem.
>>53083376I don’t see the issue. Whenever I play the games (I use a team of 6, like most people) I’m usually around level 28-30. Level 21 is low, sure, but only grunts with 5 mons have dudes that low. Most of the grunts are in the 24-28 range which is reasonable enough for where I’m usually around by then
>>53083402>Team of 6>28-30Holy shit anon, you must grind a ton. My mons are never that high and I run a team of 3 at most in Johto games.
>>53083402>i don't see the issue with fighting dozens of worthless fodder trainers that require less than zero thought because some genius decided everything from ecruteak to blackthorn was going to be the same fucking levellollmao even
>>53083408>>53083421I think it’s pretty telling that I received 2 replies that are essentially the opposite lmao.This right here explains the issue, different players have different experiences, there’s WAY too many different possibilities to account for to make the level curve perfectly smooth for everyone. So they compromise, the level ranges of areas is often huge, in the radio tower for example, the levels range from 21-38. Because of this, some battles will be easy and some will be hard, but which or how many are hard or easy depends primarily on YOU, the player. Do you battle all the trainers? Do you run from wild battles? How many mons do you use? Shit like that. I don’t consider this bad game design, usually I end up somewhere right in the middle, and I >Use 6 mons, as I said >Battle all the trainers>Battle all the wild mons I run into naturallyThat’s MY particular playstyle, and I feel like it’s a good middle ground between players who like to try out different mons and players who like to stick with just a few.
>>53083385>you shouldn't be grindingThat wasn't the part I meant. I was talking about changing team comp, which is directly affected by the low wild levels, which are mainly the way they are because of the gym design. That's why people say there is a problem with the later gyms, because their slightly lower levels translate to everything else being even more underleveled. You may not need to grind if you stuck with a few early mons, but if you catch something after Morty, the gap between the weak gyms and weaker routes becomes a problem.
>>53083385>want to use houndour on my team>it's locked to kanto because gamefreak autism>kanto levels are low because gamefreak autism so it comes at level 15>if i want to use it for erika's gym which is right next to where houndour is found i have to train it up for at least 20 levels because erika's mons are in the mid 40s>only way to do this is to fly back to victory road and grind on the only wild pokemon above 20 in the entire gamebut yeahnot a problem
>>53081614Gym leader is supposed to be the strongest trainer in the surrounding area.
>>53083338It gets muddied by people bitching about trainer levels, though I agree that Kanto is too easy even if it’s mainly a dex filler + boss rush. Low wild levels are objectively an issue with GSC, and I say that as someone who loves these games.The games don’t need higher levels trainers (for the most part), and the gym leader teams are fine, as is.
>>53083526Like I said in>>53083475I think talking about trainer levels is fair too, because they influemce wild levels, the problem tuerr is that johto fans tend to jump back and forth when talking about multiple things and assume one part is the entire problem. If only the rputes or the gyms were a little weak, it wouldn't be very noticeable, but because both are, they add together and affect the entire game.
>>53083351nigga how am I supposed to grind with that curve?
>>53083560Why are you grinding at all?
>>53081614this fucking thread again, it's happened every month for the past 2 years
>>53083490>he needs his Houndoom to be on level 40 before he can beat Erika Holy shit, how are you THIS bad at the game?
>>53083777i never said 40i said 35and with only ember for stab, it's an even matchup against her level 46 mons
>>53083791>>he needs his Houndoom to be on level 35 before he can beat Erika Dude what? Go to the guy outside of Goldenrod Game Corner and teach it Flamethrower. It's really no wonder that people who complain about Gen 2 are openly mocked for it.
>>53083820>flamethroweranon, that's crystal-only.
>>53083840>Gen 3 fans refer to Emerald as their definitive game >no complaints >Gen 4 fans refer to Platinum as their definitive game >no complaints >Gen 2 fans refer to Crystal as their definitive game >NOOOOO THAT DOESN'T COUNT! Lmao, fuck off
>>53083820NTA but you can't do that in GS, only crystal. That said, even at level 30 Houndoom can actually hold it's own against her team since it resists all of her offensive moves. Not to mention you can use X items which make any battle doable at pretty much any level so long as you have a dude that takes less than 50% from their mons attacks
>>53083554I disagree. Higher level wildmon would pretty much solve the issue a lot of players have with GSC’s “level curve”. It’d take less time to grind newly caught mon up to level, and it’d be easier to gain a few levels for existing party members if you find that you need them. Clair often shits on players (mostly if they are unaware of the ice punch TM) because she’s difficult / impossible to hit for SE damage and her lowest leveled mon are 10 levels above the highest leveled wild mon you can encounter, barring legendaries. That second point is especially important.
>>53083909Levels literally don't matter in gen 2, because you get an inherent boost to each stat as you collect badges.
>>53083919don't the gen 2 badges boost the power of moves of that type? and it's the gen 1 games where they boost stats?
>>53083919Agreed. But I’m playing devils advocate and assuming a player is swapping party members a few times in a casual run.
>>53083958Even if you're rotating a party, you're only missing out on stat exp. You get the type and stat boosts from badges regardless of how freshly-caught a Pokemon is.
>>53083959Again. I agree. Just conceding that there are playstyles where the low level wildmon could be an issue. Most annoying thing about being low level in GSC is not having access to what may be your only good moves in a lousy learnset. Some things (elemental punch TMs) make up for this, but it really makes you miss reusable TMs.
>>53081644The game was meant to be played by having a balanced team and leveling everything. The min/max one Pokemon strat was just for speed running.
>>53081701Kids do the opposite. They constantly switch out their party because they catch a new Pokemon and want to try it out. It's why they made the new exp share. Without x6 exp being given out, kids exhaust all the trainers and their Pokemon are too weak to beat the game.
>>53084219Tell that to my childhood Feraligatr + Graveler dynamic duo. I could barely read, but that unga’d my way through Johto until I got stuck in the Ice Path. Seems to be far more common for kids to have 1 to 2 strong pokemon when beating early generations.
>>53081870I think this is why whenever people bitch about "gen 2 level curve" they really mean gen 4's butchering of 2. They really only post HGSS screenshots and talk about that instead of Crystal or GS.
>>53085765This. The complexity added by the attack split adds little to nothing to a casual Johto run, and its implementation was sloppier than the special split in Gen 2. Effort values were a good change for pvp, allowing for build variety, but it has the additional effect of making your in-game team weaker than they would have been with badge boosts. Abilities? Mostly underwhelming to useless for Johto (barring post-game). Movesets? Some improved; others got worse (RIP elemental punches). We shit on Ledian (rightfully), but HGSS actually made it worse kek.I like HGSS, but some fags like to spout some variation of “old = bad” when discussing GSC, completely ignoring that the mechanical changes of HGSS suck shit outside of pvp and the battle frontier.
>>53085988>brings up the split for no reasonschizo
>>53086006>no argumentRetardThe split actively makes some pokemon worse and adds very little value to a casual playthrough. I brought it up for a reason.
>>53086029>adds very little value to a casual playthroughThis is important to bring up. How long does Cyndaquil need to rely on Flame Wheel as its sole Fire STAB? Totodile only has Waterfall as a physical water move so it basically makes no difference until very late game.
>>53086029>>no argumentwe're not having an argument
>>53086091The split is relevant when discussing the differences between the two games.
>>53081870Badge boosts don't matter when my Donphan's best damaging move is Headbutt.HGSS movesets > GSC badge boosts
>>53086238Why didn't you teach your Donphan Earthquake for 100 power * STAB? It's a TM right there on Victory Road. You could also use Strength if you want more consistent damage over Headbutt's flinch chance, and Rollout will be learned automatically and is a great move once it gets going. Then there's Return or Hyper Beam, which all fully evolved Pokemon learn. Sounds like you intentionally gimped your Donphan to prove a point.
>>53086091Generally, you don’t flame someone you agree with. I don’t care if you disagree. I have my opinion on where I believe HGSS’s mechanical differences are and aren’t improvements on GSC’s, but I’d have to do an autist analysis of every mon in GSC + HGSS to approach something “objective” (and that’s not something I’m going to waste time on).
Why is there always at least one anti-Johto thread up on this board at all times? Is there some sort of quota?
>>53086238>he didn’t run Mud Slap, Headbutt, Rollout, and Defense CurlNGMI. Donphan is really good in Crystal. Earthquake is also available in TM form before the E4 if you want it early. One of my few gripes with GSC is that TMs are still single use because they really help fill in much needed gaps with movesets (and you’re likely to have more than one mon want a single TM). Sure, you can dupe them, but I think reusable TMs should be a priority inclusion for any GSC romhack.
>>53081701When I was a kid I rotated the party constantly to keep all the levels even, because I was playing the game to go on an adventure with a bunch of cool monster buddies and I wanted to see/use them all
>>53081701>>53086413When I was a kid I took kinda a middle ground between these, I mainly used my starter, who was always a good bit above the level curve, but I also caught and trained basically every pokemon I saw at least a little, constantly shuffling around team members (but never shuffling out my starter). To me, my starter was my main bro, but the entire point of the game is to catch and train pokemon. If you're not actively doing that then are you even really playing the game?I'm not part of this post chain or anything but I just wanted to add my 2 cents
>>53081614Pokemon in general has garbage level curve. Why do levels go up to 100 when most games don’t even have trainers over 80?
>>53086741For the battle facilities and battling other players.
>>53086384There is at least 1 guy who browses /vp/ 24/7 yelling 'Johtroon' and 'Johturd' in any thread that even vaguely praises the games. And if he's not there, he's making these shit threads. Wouldn't be surprised if it's Pchal seething about Gen 2 while he's not streaming.
>>53086788all of those scale to 50 IDIOT
>>53087077>implying /vp/ isn’t home to that caliber of retardIt’s not like anon claimed to see Mothman.
>>53086741>Pokemon in general has garbage level curve.Johtranny cope
>>53087077/vp/ has had on and off raids for like a decade. Never underestimate the power of autism and a bone to pick.
>>53087276It's just the cycle of 4chan contrarianism. There was a period of time where people loved HG/SS, now it's gone and people have to hate and mock it. This always happens, on every board.
>>53087300Hating Johto as a whole is a relatively new phenomenon.
>>53087300GSC and HGSS have been a magnet for this shit for years now, though. Some moron will watch a few basic bitch opinions on youtube and regurgitate it at the nostalgia-glasses crew. We’ve had very polarized groups for a while. Then you’ve also got some infighting with people who like GSC and HGSS over which is better, though that is usually less shitposty outside of a few butthurt fags.The only major development in contrarianism is that people are seemingly coming around on Gen 6. I honestly refuse to believe most of the Gen 8 defenders believe what they’re saying, so I’m ignoring them. I can’t think of a genuine defense of Gen 8 outside of praising the QoL improvements (hidden behind a paywall kek).
>>53087403Gen 8 has better Pokemon designs overall than Gen 2, including the starters.
>>53087421That’s a nice opinion you have there, buddy. Shame that it’s wrong. Gen 8’s dex is a pretty good approximation for what Gen 7’s would look like if it sucked. There are a couple of winners, though. And on the bright side, it’s still better than Gen 4’s dex.
>>53081614I just finished a play through of Crystal, beat Red with mostly high 50s and a 62 Alakazam or something. As far as I'm concerned the level curve isn't a big deal in this game. The open-ish nature of the three gyms after Morty is neat. Mainly, you can level new Pokemon on your team with a certain amount of ease while you explore. If you're not leveling new Pokemon, well, you're not having much trouble with encounters then, so you're good. EXP Share can be used at your convenience. Kanto is meant to be a little victory lap while you do your last bits of teambuilding and raising. So most of the trainers being ~30 isn't a big issue there either. The whole power level of the game is lower, having just a handful of good moves on your team and a little synergy goes way, way, farther than the levels do.
>>53087350Yeah, and it'll pass once that gets boring/people stop getting the reactions they're looking for, and then people will hate the old thing people liked.
All I know is that it's a bitch to keep your team under level 9 for Falkner if you're playing a GSC Nuzlocke with level caps. Jesus Christ.
>>53086384maybe because it's shit, the game really short, map is a circle and everything else is just Kanto 2
>>53087350>>53087403This is and always will be a ridiculous cope. The exact same debate has been happening on many sites since HGSS released. All that video did was force Johto fans to stop ignoring it by giving them a boogeyman to blame. Then they made a ton of threads about the big bad youtuber attacking them, encouraging more discussion of Johto and eventually leading to both positive and negative threads. If Johto fans weren't so eager to be victims, the conversation would just die down like it did every other time it happened for 8 years before. Instead, they created a self-fulfilling prophecy by claiming the game was perfect and anyone who disagreed was lying and bad or just a zoomer, dragging others into defending their opinions that had existed long before the idea of that video ever did.
>>53088486The stereotype is off-base. I could link all of my posts ITT to prove it, but I never claim GSC is perfect, only that it’s my personal favorite in the series. I could argue him which ways HGSS is better / worse than GSC because the games are so similar. Can’t really do the same for the series as a whole when so much changes between entries. Gets too subjective.My only sticking point is that many of the talking points about GSC and, to a lesser extent, HGSS are untrue or wildly exaggerated. We all have different playstyles, sure, but some people sound like they haven’t even played the games.
>>53081614Gen 2's level curve is based around you running from every single wild encounterThe game is surprisingly challenging and fun if you play it that way
>>53088599Perfect was the wrong word there, I was just trying to quickly refer to the general mindset a lot of people have of "the level curve/distribution/etc is fine, it's not a problem, you're just thinking of it wrong". The concept of johto's differences being undebateable just because that's how the game is directly leads to the thoguht process of > "this person said a thing that the e-celeb said, it must be because of that, there's no way they could think that on their own"Which is super unhealthy and only makes more discussion of the differences by insulting anyone who questions them.
>>53087350are you seriously fucking stupid or just under 30
>>53088637I can never get a solid answer on what is wrong with the level curve. Your post implies that the game is too easy unless you avoid unnecessary EXP, meanwhile I've seen plenty of posts implying that the game is too hard and requires more grinding than normal.
>>53089024i think that lack of consistency is itself indicative of the problem. but basically:>training new team members is a slog because everything is so low level>but once they're caught up you can steamroll, again because everything is so low levelalso summin about how clair is a huge jump after the easy-as-dicks pryce/jasmine and radio tower, but i've just heard that from others as i gave up on the game after the 6th badge. to this day it's still the only mainline game i've given up on, which is pretty disappointing for what i'd always heard was the best pokemon game. i even sat through USUM,
>>53089024The probpem isn't being just too easy or hard. It's the game itself being inconsistent. For the first ~4 gyms, it works out pretty evenly, maybe easy if you don't have a full team, but then after Morty the levels drop out from under you, and depending on what you did early the result in gyms 5-7 is different:> 1. Only had one/a few pokemon: your team is probably at a higher level, you don't gain levels very much anymore, but you're already strong enough to quickly sweep through> 2. already had 6:Your team is even more likely to stop gaining experience ,but you also are about at the npc levels, so it's just low power STAB spam thanks to the weaker movepools unevolved/lower level mons generally have>3. had a few, adding to the team: the worst of both worlds, you have a few pokemon that are strong and can sweep, but any new additions will be weak and won't gain levels, so you're stuck with whatever it has when you catch itDepending on which situation you're in, either you get to Clair and the league at their level and continue without much issue (this would be option 1), or your team is now relatively underleveled and still mot at their full potential, so it's more boring battles or grinding against the routes to get those last evos/moves (this is usually options 2 and 3)And then no matter which one you were this time, you get to Kanto, the gyms are weaker, and it's just a casual walk around the region to destroy everything before being 10-20 levels under Red.Other regions avoid this inconsistency thanks to the exp all, which does make them easy, but also much more well rounded to allow different playstyles instead of having drasitcally different experiences depending on when you caught your party.
>>53089071>>53089128>uhhh wait ackshually the problem is that it's both too easy and too hardThis argument only ever comes up when people get called out on this subject, up until that point you'll either see people saying the game is too hard or too difficult, not that it's both.
>>53089150>when I say there isn't an argument, suddenly it's both!It's always both, but you will see people discuss one or the other depending on how they personally played. That's exactly the problem, the game is so weirdly designed that BOTH CAN HAPPEN. It's not inconsistent to hear about one or the other, it's perfect evidnce of the game itself being inconsistent.
>>53086238one of the biggest issues with modern pokemon is the learn sets bloated with coverage and retards thinking everything needs at least ~80 bp stabs on their highest attack stat.along with the recent bst min maxing.
>>53089306Perfect coverage and utility is one thing but I feel like "gets to use a move stronger than Tackle as its main attack" isn't really an unreasonable expectation.
>>53089150>you only see an answer for this when you ask about it!yeah, that's how conversations work you autist. people don't frontload all of their caveats and nuances right away because that would be exhausting.
>>53089360Well Donphan met that expectation (because even the person bitching about it like an idiot noted it had Headbutt and it has other options). What non-gimmick, fully evolved Pokemon can't hit stronger than Tackle?
>>53089423>Donphan met that expectationSince when is Headbutt a Ground type attack?>what pokemon can't hit stronger than tackle? Someone posted a list a while ago, I don't know it off the top of my head, but I remember most of the single-stage mons being not much better off, if they even got STAB without TMs at all in gen 2.
>>53089511>Since when is Headbutt a Ground type attack?Not what you asked for. Main attacks don't *have* to be STAB. Further, as noted, Earthquake is a move Donphan gets both by level and by TM.>Someone posted a list a while ago,Well let me know when you find it.
>>53089521>that doesn't count!Tell the devs, who made and entire game mechanic soecifically to encourage pokemon using attacks of their type.>but earthquakeIs only available at a level that you will reach at the league if you're lucky.>go dig through the archive and spoonfeed me!Why do that when you're just going to deny it anyway? It was last week or something, and people complained then because they didn't like seeing evidnce after asking for it. Johto fans are always happy to find random youtube comments that say things they don't like, I'm sure you can get to a post in here if you really want to.
>>53087633It's actually the easiest thing to do. Totodile also destroys everything with Rage at a low level.
>>53088815no nigger, i've been playing pokemon since before 4chan even existed
>>53089569Faggot, if you'd said upfront "main attack with STAB", I wouldn't have mentioned Headbutt. You didn't, so I didn't. If that's what you meant, all you had to do was say, but you want to keep being a little bitch about things, so fuck on back to your favorite fetish thread and perform your favorite jerk it/weep loudly combo.>dig through the archive and spoonfeed me!Yeah there's this thing called burden of proof and if you weren't a failure as a person you'd understand why it's on the guy bitching about nonsensical things to present actual examples of his fever dreams.
>>53081958Cry more redditboy.
Those who complain about STAB not syncing with attack stats are gay. GF does this to avoid some getting too much power creep. It balances itself when there are more useless mons around with a terrible movepool in gen II. Not everything has to be min-max because the world is inherently unfair: if you bring another one up, another must go down.
johto has some points with abysmal grinding opportunitiesat least hgss added the waterfall route spot with miltank that give 1000exp
It's a youtuber conspiracy.
>>53081614I believe game freak wanted the game to be easier. I think there was some early pre-launch interview with Tajiri where he said they wanted it to be less of a rough experience compared to red and blue
>>53091041>red and blue>rough experienceI mean, besides the roadblocks without proper guides, gen 1 was really easy, especially you can beat a pokemon 12 lvl higher if you have 2x effective moves
>>53089511Anon, you’re playing GSC wrong and bitching at randoms online about it. Donphan is really good; it crushes the game with a moveset you can have locked in by Goldenrod (with only one STAB move). It’s essentially a weaker Geodude line, but seeing how they’re top tier, that’s not really bad. Stop obsessing over STAB because it’s often bad in GSC due to Game Freak’s retardation (see: Sneasel kek). Physical attackers are good because normal attacks are good (TM Headbutt, TM Return). Special attackers are a little harder to work with unless they are water type and/or have fists (for elemental punch TMs). Status moves are really good in GSC. The game loves to give you moves like Sand Attack and even the first gym TM is Mud Slap. Why not use them? Off the top of my head, it’s an easy way to stop a Scyther sweep in the second gym.>>53089128You’re not wrong, but you’re taking a bad approach to playing GSC.>1-4 strong mon This is effectively “easy mode”. You will be at / near boss levels, and you should crush them due to badge boosts.>party of 6I’d call this the “standard difficulty”. You will be underleveled at times, but with badge boosts and strategy, you shouldn’t need to grind with most team comps. Exceptions exist (challenge runs, mono teams, etc).>swapping out party membersJust don’t. There’s never a reason to, and these old games don’t give you an easy way to level them up to par with your current team. If you’ve been conditioned by modern games to think this is fine, break that conditioning here.
>>53091128Sneasel got saved by the split in Gen 4 after it gained access to useful STAB.
>>53091141In theory? He was a winner from the split, but in practice, they really didn’t give him great STAB options by level up. Stuck with Faint Attack, Ice Shard, and Beat Up. Still a vast improvement from GSC, and that just goes to show you how poorly thought out its stat spread was.Could have been worse. Ledian actually got worse because of the split.
>>53091128>you’re playing GSC wrongand there we go
>>53091452It’s true. You’re looking at it from a lens created by experiences with more modern games, and in the process, you’re ignoring the mechanics unique to GSC, choosing instead to rant online about how “bad” they are. You could elaborate on why your experience with GSC was so bad (playstyle, ignorance, whatever), or you could graciously accept the advice of anons who have a better grasp of the games. Instead you choose to bitch.No one is saying GSC is perfect. The point is that the mechanics are fine when you use them properly, and there are ways to play that will ensure you have a better experience (basically anything aside from swapping party members or doing a meme run like a nuzlocke).
>>53091452You are. You're overfocusing on STAB when it's really not important at all for singleplayer.
>>53091177Sneasel didn't really "gain" Beat Up, that move always used your party's attack stats for damage calculation.
>>53091507Good point, actually. I suppose that was its only somewhat usable dark move in GSC then. With it being a late encounter with underwhelming stats and an unusable STAB, I’ve never bothered to use it in a playthrough. Beat Up is a pretty late level up move, though (level 57), so you’ll be relying on the usual physical filler (normal moves, Mud Slap, maybe Iron Tail) for pretty much everything before Red.
Gen 2 are the worse games by far becuase Gen 1 is the classic and everything after 2 are just improvements. No reason to play Gen 2 ever which is why only threads about it are shitting on it or zoomers larping it has something called "soul".
>>53091543>dark moveTypeless in GSC. That’s rough.
>>53091573At least King's Rock works with it.
>>53091543>unusable STABhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=202-iAsrIa8>Generation II>Each strike is typeless and has a base power of 10So no STAB. It is Sneasel's signature move because it fits well with his attack. And people think its stats don't make sense with both of his types.
>>53084219>They constantly switch out their party because they catch a new Pokemon and want to try it out. It's funny how delusionals Anons here are
>>53091614Were you never a kid who didn't know what stats were and just caught everything to use? I bashed my head against a wall so hard trying to get Ledyba & Onix to work.
>>53091619I used Feraligatr + Ampharos + Entei + Pidgeot and that's it
>>53091626With no other experimentation?
>>53091609>And people think its stats don't make sense with both of his types.They quite literally don’t. The only benefits to Sneasel’s typing in GSC is an immunity to psychic and little to fear from fighting (because they’re rare and much weaker than in future generations).Beat Up is only useful for King’s Rock shenanigans with a team of physical attackers. Probably funny to execute, but Sneasel doesn’t have much value outside of that.
>>53091128>you're taking a bad approach to playing GSCThis is literally exactly the problem, there shouldn't be a bad approach. The game is designed in a way that punishes multiple playstyles, including the one directly encouraged by in-game text. Catching and training many pokemon has always been the intended way to play, every game in the series tells you that early on. If the game tells you one thing and then rewards the opposite, it's poorly designed.
>>53091649>Catching and training many pokemon has always been the intended way to playI don’t see how you figure this when that playstyle has always sucked before the introduction of the exp share all and easy access to exp candies. You will have to grind if you attempt this in any of the old games.
>>53091642In-game playthrough is not the problem. GF made Sneasel with Beat Up in mind. Beat Up is the only move that no other Pokemon except Sneasel can learn in gen II. That alone explains why Sneasel has high Atk and shitty S.Atk.
>a-always been bad!!every time
>>53091662>You will have to grind if you attempt this in any of the old games.No you won't.
>>53091665>In-game playthrough is not the problemI’m sure that’s true, but there’s still the issue of how late you gain access to that move. By comparison, Ledian is also pretty bad, but you gain access to elemental punches before the third gym. As much as I like GSC, I try to call a spade a spade when it comes to the questionable game design. I can understand why they made some decisions, but they don’t all look great in hindsight. Late game mon with a lot going against them? Not a smart design choice in my opinion. If you’re going to be spamming normal attacks, there are so many better options, and they’re available earlier than Sneasel.
>>53091673Elaborate. I’m sure there are scenarios where you won’t, but you are opening yourself up to the possibility of a grind if you play that way. Saying “nuh-uh” doesn’t provide meaningful context.
>>53091698>but you are opening yourself up to the possibility of a grindCool, but I don't need to and I always play with a full party. You're "opening yourself up to grind" if you use anything but the best solo mon in the game. That's fine if you're autistic enough to optimize every one of your runs, but I don't.
>>53091703That’s not what I said, anon. I’m making the point that having a roster of mon larger than 6 is an open invitation to a necessary grind. Yes, sometimes certain team comps will hit a wall, but that’s less common than the excessive grind that results from an extra large party. Running less than 6 makes the game a little too easy, but running more 6 doesn’t seem to have been the intention in early games. These days, you can do whatever the fuck you want because you have reusable TMs and easy control over exp.
>>53091734The intention was to always swap out party members. That's why early-route bugs or rodents have pretty good stats for the first couple of gyms but fall off quick. You were never really intended to take your Butterfree all the way to the end. It's also why certain Pokemon like Fearow are entirely outclassed by something you can find later on.
>>53081614Level curve is simply a way to add some difficulty to the game. Fighting red's team with level 40/level 50 mons is a completely different experience to fighting him with level 80 mons, and maxing out red's levels in other to raise the overall level curve means that less thoughtful players can't simply beat him by overlevelling him. The other reason behind the level curve is to make certain special mons like dragonite and tyranitar harder to get, as you need to actually commit to training their pre evolutions before obtaining them - and that only makes them feel that much special.The other big misconception about gen 1 and gen 2 is that they are all about pokemon battling and thus they are bad because they are not filled with competitive pokemon with optimized move sets, because they and monster COLLECTING games where the real challenge is meeting and capturing as many pokemon as possible, not PvP battling. Gen 2 was the last gen where legendaries were actually elusive rather than handed to you by the plot, even suicune in crystal can be entirely missed if you don't want to follow him - and despite adding the battle tower as a true test for competitive pvp movesets, the real final challenge in that game isn't battling red, it's capturing the three legendary beasts just so you have a chance at battling and capturing ho oh.
>>53091746Maybe, but they never really designed the games to support that exp drain until some of the modern entries. In practice, most players know to be choosy with party members and avoid taking too many from the first route or two. You can rail on GSC for this, though Crystal has some excellent choices in early routes, but in reality, what you’re describing is a problem with all older pokemon games.
>>53091802>what you’re describing is a problem with all older pokemon games.It's not a problem, they just had different design philosophies back then. The first 2 gens were JRPGs first, and now the games are just a roadblock to pvp.
>>53091810That’s another way of looking at it. Still, if you’re knowingly opening yourself up to a grind, I don’t see why you’d complain about having to grind. In my experience, you only need ~5 levels for a comfortable battle with Clair and Red, but that’s not a strict requirement with a little strategy.But for clarification, I’ve always wanted a better way to grind in GSC’s post game. Preparing for Stadium 2 is draining, and it’d be nice to be able to fill out dex evolutions a little faster.
>>53091833>Still, if you’re knowingly opening yourself up to a grind, I don’t see why you’d complain about having to grind.I don't grind.
>>53091841You jumped into the wrong (You) chain then, guy.
Not gonna spam (you)s, you guys know who this is for.Personally, I’ve never had an issue using more than 6 mons in GSC. But I wanna emphasize: that is 100% because I don’t consider grinding an issue. People don’t see it this way these days but back then, spending ~hour each day leveling your mons in a nearby area, while engaging in side activities like the game corner, berry collecting, trainer rematches, bug catching contests etc in the downtime to break up the monotony, all that stuff, that WAS the content. That WAS the gameplay. Maybe one day you’d get lucky and run into a rare encounter on your way through an area, maybe you’d get a call about a swarm, maybe you finally win the bug catching contest, etc etc, each day brings with it potential for new experiences, it’s not always about clearing all of what technically counts as “content” in a given area ASAP and then moving on, you MAKE the content by creating your own story using the tools the game gives you. For me that means catching and training like 10-15 mons as I progress, and fully embracing the slower, routine based playstyle that asks of me. For others? Maybe they don’t really want to - and that’s ok. Those players can use proportionally less Pokémon, thus allowing them to progress through the game in a suitably swifter manor. BUTWhen people constantly whine about aspects of the game that aid my playstyle, getting in the way of theirs? Yea, I’m sorry, but it just sounds like you’re playing the game wrong, or more specifically, it sounds like you’re going into the game expecting it to give you an experience it’s not designed to, and then get mad when it doesn’t. You’re not “objectively wrong” or some shit, those issues you’re complaining about “exist”, sure, I wont be disingenuous with you there, but whether or not they’re “issues” at all is a matter of perspective, it may hinder your experience but it bolsters mine
>>53091626>have to use legendary pokemonthe weakness disgusts me
>chuckTwo fully evolved mons, Ace is level 31>jasmineTwo shitmons (you can maybe justify this with their 'better' movesets than standard but it hardly matters especially since one doesn't have sturdy) for this point in the game one fully evolved mon, Ace level 35>pryceOne NFE shitmon, two fully evolved mons (I'll be generous and count Piloswine even if Jasmine gets Steelix), Ace level 34>ariana and petrelAverage villian team shitmons, Zubat is unevolved on Petrel's team, aces are 24/27This right here is the shittiest stretch of any Pokémon game because of how the game is laid out and Gamefreak's reluctance to add even limited scaling makes it so every 'boss' encounter after Morty feels shitty because if you keep even one mon on the team through each of these encounters you're going to outstrip them in levels and power while the game does nothing to compensate.
>>53092208Go for Chuck and tackle Jasmine + Price around the same time. I’ve always been 5 to 10 levels lower than them, and it has been fine for the most part. Had to rely on gimmicks like Counter Heracross a few times, but it just werks. Balance your exp gains; use 5-6 mon.>AbilitiesNot in my Johto.>Rocket adminsYou made me look up Rocket levels, and the ones you provided are for the encounter meant to be done before the gyms. Nonlinearity doesn’t necessarily mean there’s not a suggested order. Non-issue for replays.
this threads embarassingif you obsess about johto, congrats, you will believe any 4chan meme and make it your personalityyoure no better than hivemind redditorsfaggotsAlso, gen 2 rode hard on piggybacking kanto while least every other gen stood on its own. It's absolutely the most shit gen, it would be a DLC instead of a full game by modern standards
>>53092415>everything I don’t like is reddit>accusing others of making 4chan memes a personalityWas this intentional irony?
>>53092483dude...work on your reading comprehension fr
>>53092534>if you do thing I don’t like, you’re an honorary redditorNo. I believe I have a pretty good grasp on your statement as it was written, dipshit. Try being more articulate.
nah gen 4 has the worst level scaling because it doesn't give you enough exp to beat Cyantha
>>53092768>He couldn't beat cynthia without grindingYou didn't beat the game. Go play again, but properly this time
>>53092768>get any ice type>???>cynthia is dead
GSC isn't supposed to be super hard the randomly trainers rarely have offered much of a challenge if you're building a sensible teamI agree that its a bit odd JUST HOW underleveled some of the encounters you can have are, but I think they wanted to make sure that you didn't get swamped if you wanted to try new pokemon often and adjust your team after every gym leader. There's also the part after you beat Morty>game opens up>you can choose which gyms to fight>you can choose to beat team rocket first>lots of areas to explore and pokemon to findIt makes grinding up to your opponents' levels for the hard battles a bit tedious, but you REALLY don't need to do that.You should be able to win against the gyms and elite four with a solid 5-10 level disadvantage compared to the last ace pokemon, if you know what you're doing.I won't argue that the game design is perfect. It makes some trainers really boring to fight and some really a lot harder, but I think its enjoyable as an overall experience
>>53093105Based GSC enjoyer. The games really aren’t that difficult, but as with every pokemon game, the player has a lot of control over the difficulty of the experience. The number of times I’ve seen / heard of people doing long grinds for Red is proof enough that some players simply don’t “get” GSC, meaning they aren’t familiar enough with the mechanics to know that Red (and other trainers) are manageable even when massively underleveled.I think too many players come into GSC expecting modern mechanics and wind up ruining their own experience. As for those who claim to have always hated GSC after playing RBY, I genuinely can’t understand why; people typically don’t elaborate on that very well.I will also say that HGSS, good as it is, exacerbates some of the issues people have with GSC, and I think that has made the opinion of Gen 2 more negative with some people, even if they haven’t played the original games. HGSS really would have benefited from making more changes to Johto and rebalancing the Kanto / Johto mon for the attack split. When it comes to rebalancing abilities and stats, I’m not sure why Game Freak is so hesitant. They’ve fucked up several lines over the years with the special stat split and attack split, and a lot of early abilities suck.
>>53087633as the other anon said, unless you pick totodileor you can simply use geodudeswap between a flying type and geodude until pidgeotto runs out of mud slap (10 PP) and its GG.give geodude a berry for safetyhe can easily win this way at level 9 as long as you can kill the first pidgey without him taking too much damage
>>53093864I grinded for a couple days for Red but that was only because last time I played I was doing a hardcore nuzlocke and I had already spent 40 hours of playtime optimizing my team and doing everything I could before I made it to him and I REALLY didn't want to lose.Ended up going in with 4 pokemon at level 62-64, a level 40 onix from victory road, and an electrode to sack if things got dicey.They DID get dicey, but I won with gengar and slowking surviving. The other 2 of my fully trained pokemon (rhydon and snorlax) got bopped by Kanto gym leaders, RIP
Is "dont get" the new buzzword johtoddlers use?
>>53094268>4chan poster is just now being introduced the concept of understanding a game’s design intentions>That same 4chan poster hates johto
>>53094279What did anon mean by this? It's designed to be bad?
>>53094302You are new, Johto hate is a new phenomenon just like you
>>53094331No it isnt we have already went through this. We had people shitting on johto the day it was released in forums.
>>53094331>no ujohtoddler is a term that has existed for years
>>53083402>>53083452Literally plowing through the 3DS port of Crystal right now to get that Celebi (that I didn't know was catchable in the virtual console release until recently) before the Bank shuts down, and this is pretty much how I've been playing and, coincidentally, the exact point of the game I'm at. Can confirm that, after battling all of the trainers, getting all 7 badges, and battling every wild Pokemon I've encountered so far, I'm in roughly the level 28-31 range using a team of 6 mons (two which WOULD be at 30 but are lower because I swapped them out for HM slaves). I generally try to make sure my Pokemon are at or within 5 levels of the gym leaders I'm about to fight, and haven't had to do a whole lot of grinding to get there.
>>53094268I don’t know what you expect when anons can’t properly articulate their complaints about Johto, conceptualize why their play style might be a hinderance to their own enjoyment, or respond with anything better than “no u” tier responses to anons who dare to explain the mechanical intricacies of GSC. I don’t think most rational anons have an issue with people not liking the purposeful design choices that haven’t aged well, and GSC objectively has a few flaws (we’re talking about Game Freak for fuck’s sake). But some of the posts you see complaining about GSC are so dumb that you have to assume the anon either didn’t play the games or didn’t understand them.
>didn’t understand them.There we go again.
>>53094375okay, here's my complaint about johto:having some time-based events is fine, but too much of Johto's side content is time-based. the region is lacking is space-based events, aka stuff you find off the beaten path. yeah there are side areas, yeah there's optional dungeons, but there's nothing in them. so the region feels empty.
>>53094443you just dont get it bro its supposed to be bad!!!!
>>53094375>anons can't properly articulate their complaintsYour refusal to read doesn't magically make the complaints poorly written.>conceptualize why their playstyle might be a hindranceIf the game directly tells you one specific playstyle is reccomended and then punishes you for using it later, it's a poorly designed game.>I don't think most rational anons have an issue with people not liking the design choices that haven't aged wellYou mean "design choices" like the levels curve and pokemon distribution, which johto fans consistently say nobody should talk about or they're just playing wrong?
>>53094293>It's bad because I don't like it!Nah, MY opinion is actually the correct one, and YOU'RE objectively wrong for disagreeing. Checkmate
>>53094345>>53094346Go back to discord, troons
>>53089423Until level 50, Gen 2 Sneasel's best attack is Fury Swipes.
>>53094567>>53089423Well, not that its any better today, lol
>>53094567>>53094590>Learnset literally better in gen 2Cannot make this shit up
>>53094443I’m fine with that complaint. Matter of fact, HGSS gets on my nerves for taking the time-based events even further. I was going to argue about the lack of optional areas (and I guess I still could with stuff like Mt Mortar, the trio that gives the Pink Bow, and others), but I remembered even some of those are time limited (like Lapras). These things work if you’ll be playing for a long time, but that’s hardly the norm for most players.>>53094498>Your refusal to read doesn't magically make the complaints poorly writtenkek Nice headcanon, fag.>If the game directly tells you one specific playstyle is reccomended and then punishes you for using it later, it's a poorly designed game.Again. Nice headcanon, fag. These are monster collecting games. You are encouraged to complete the dex, but that does not mean you are encouraged to train every mon you encounter (nor does it mean you have to complete the dex before completing the “story”).>You mean "design choices" like the levels curve and pokemon distribution, which johto fans consistently say nobody should talk about or they're just playing wrongIf you sift through the shit, multiple anons, including me, have given you legitimate reasons why the “level curve” doesn’t matter. It’s not my fault if (You) didn’t read or understand them, and I’m not going to take the time to restate them for you now. Find them yourself. Distribution is something I’ll concede to you, however. It was choice that I can see making sense when they made GSC, but it didn’t age well. The fact that it wasn’t fixed in HGSS is pretty sad.
>>53094614Yeah, I have no idea why, but after Gen 7 they nuked its level up movepool. Its actually funny how much they cucked the fucker.
>>53094614Fucking Game Freak kek
>>53094630They did it to every mon, gen 8 actually reverted the level up learnsets to similar levels to how they were in gen 3, which I actually really like because I am of the opinion that level up learnsets were getting too cluttered, but in some cases (like sneasel) that seems to also mean just making their movesets dogshit
>>53094629>if you sift through, multiple anons have given your legitimate reasons why the level curve doesn't matterYou realize this is exactly what I jsut tried to stay right? And what was your response?"Nice headcanon"Many people have explained why the level curve can really less with the game for a lot of people, but those explanations always get ignored or denied. Even earlier ITT you have it happening:>>53089128>>53089150>>53091128A full written explanation on exactly what the problem is, and 2 people ignore it just to stay "well stop thinking that"
>>53094724>1 You really aren’t that clear when making points. I can see why anons may have been confused or wrote you off.>2Your point about needing to grind in scenario 2 is really not accurate in my experience with GSC, though I could see it being an issue with HGSS. A little strategy combined with badge boosts can make up for a massive difference in levels in GSC unless you’re doing some challenge run. I’ve run several dumb team comps without needing to do more than the occasional 1-4 level grinds (maybe 1-3 times in a playthrough).>3 Scenario 3 as you describe is largely true of all pre-exp share all games.I don’t have time to stick around in the thread, but you really could avoid seethe-posting if you were clearer in your posts. You can dislike the post-game in GSC if you want. I like it for being a little boss rush victory lap, but I wouldn’t defend the low wildmon levels.
>>53081614Unironically still was more pleasant to play than Sinnohs level curve, especially with BDSP making it even worse
>ITT anons discover that there exist people with different taste than them, and proceed to take turns screeching about why their taste is "le hecking objectively correct" blissfully unaware of the fact that any and all arguments they give in favor of such a point will inevitably rely on circular logic (usually some variation of "my opinion is correct because it caters to [my subjective preferences] perfectly, while yours completely ignores [my subjective preferences]")It's all so tiresome. I play along sometimes because it suits human instinct and this is a good place to vent that shit, but I hope you all know that in actuality there is no such thing as an objectively bad game, unless you're talking about technical aspect like performance. I just worry that some of you are getting so caught up this that you've deluded yourselves into thinking this is some sort of real, actual debate where this is a clear winner or loser.
>You are encouraged to complete the dex, but that does not mean you are encouraged to train every mon you encounterAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>53094838>anon doesn’t know how to prioritize tasks>anon has no sense of planningThat actually makes perfect sense.
>>53094831I honestly still can't fathom the insanity of the argument. Think of this: the "debate" here is that the 'level curve' in GSC/HGSS is 'bad'. That's what the retards in this thread a losing their minds over. This is what they think constitutes a bad game. Not that it has mtx or a slimy pre-order incentive or is a game that doesn't function correctly or any of the other shit that makes for a genuinely bad game. The people in this thread are concerned about something as minor as a 'level curve'. Baffling.
>>53094860It also doesnt use any Johto mons in gyms and that also means its a bad game.
>>53094860>I can't fathom why this argument happensBecause when johto fans make 3 threads a day about how they're games are great and anyone who disagrees is a bad zoomer or whatever else the current boogeyman is, you're naturally going to get people defending their opinions.
>>53094899>how they're games are great Classic Johto hater grammar
>>53094899>Johto fans celebrating their favourite games on a board that is specifically there for Pokemon discussions >NOOOO, I DON'T LIKE JOHTO SO I WILL FORCE MYSELF INTO THEIR THREAD AND SEETHE ABOUT IT Do you realise how pathetic you sound right now?
>>53094914Congratulations, you've missed the point completely because of a small typo.
>>53094926>Sinnoh fans celebrating their favorite most hated game on a board that is specifically there for Pokemon discussions>NOO I LOVE JOHTO ITS SOUL YOU JUST DONT GET IT NOODo you realise how pathetic you sound right now?
>>53092578You can try hooked on phonics to help you with your reading level
>>53094926>>people talking about job to amd a few flaws>NOOO I LOVE JOHTO SO I WILL FORCE MYSELF IN AND GET ANGRY TELL EVERYONE THEY'RE WRONGit goes both ways. You can't ask people to just let you say whatever you want and then try to stop anything that isn't blind praise
>>53094938>post a hate thread on a fansite >surprised when people challenge you on it Do you realise how pathetic you sound right now?
>>53092415Best take in the thread Everyone else is grim darkwood-levels of gay
>>53094956here I'll point out my own mistake for you this time so the point can be addressed>HAHA TYPO YOU BAD I STOP READING NOWNow, why should johto fans get to praise their games constantly but nobody else gets to talk about how they feel about the games?
>>53094956>people talking about job to amd a few flawsAKA making 10 hate threads per day (also known as a hate raid) Also what is with the Johto haters and their trash spelling today. Are you drunk in the middle of the afternoon again or something?
>>53094974It's just johtroddlers falseflagging as haters.
>>53094974>aka making 10 hate threads per dayAs opposed to johto fans' ten echo chambers per day? Why do you get to spam but others don't?
>>53094974the anti-johto discord all have brain damage
>>53094996>the anti johto discordYou mean this discord?
>>53094886It also has a ton of useless filler in the dex, like babies and that also means its a bad game.
>>53095004This looks like a discord some rando anon made with alt accounts to make it look like this was all a ruse. Did you make this discord anon?
>>53095044>that's fakeOkay, sure, if that's the cope you're going with, do you have any evidence of the very real "anti-Johto discord" then?
>>53095052It's all in my head.
>>53095056Stop pretending to be me.
>>53095058You are in my head.
>>53095004pic related>>5309504432 is a real account. He hangs out in the pret server and has posted on /rheg/.
>>53095078platinum<dp was really funny times
>>53094860For me, it’s less about changing hearts and minds and more about using critiques to critically analyze my own opinion. I’ve discovered a lot about what I like about these games because of threads like this.
>>53083560Unless its a challenge hack, you shouldn't be grinding at all in a PKM game.
>play platinum >set up a thief compound eyes yanma>use the yanma to steal a lucky egg off a chansey, never took me long, let's say 10ish minutes>trade the lucky egg to HGSSAs simple as that.
>>53094860It's not that hard to understand why. The issue is that when people say a level curve is bad, what they're really saying is that it doesn't accommodate their playstyle very well. The hidden additional claim is that their playstyle is somehow the only one that should be accommodated. Not enough people even realize they're innately assuming this.>>53096505Based, and same.
>>53084219I felt bad about putting pokemon in the box so I never caught more than my 6 man team
>>53096932>the hidden additional claim as that their plastyle is the only correct one...what? This is the exact opposite of what happens. Johto fans are the ones always saying other people are playing wrong if they aren't using the one single playstyle supported by the johto games. You can literally just look at the rest of this thread and see that happen multiple times.I really, really hope this is bait, because if not, it is one of the most delusional posts I've ever seen.
>>53097125>he only reads the cliffnotesYou are a special kind of retard. Stop skimming posts, think about what anons have told you, play the fucking games, and use this information to at least have a more educated opinion.>the one single playstyle supported by the johto gamesThis is quite possibly the biggest cope I have ever seen. You’re a complete moron for forcing yourself to play in a way that you don’t enjoy, and I’m not sure if you have the authority to call anyone delusional when you think a pokemon game has only one viable way to play. Sad.
>>53097429>you're a moron for forcing yourself to play in a way you don't enjoyWhat gave you the impression that I did this? I have always played the same way, choosing 6 pokemon that I want to use, catchign them when I can, and using a few fillers if they're not available early. I have gone through both GSC amd HGSS in this way, multiple times, in order to understand the game better. Every time, I saw that that is the playstyle Johto punishes. I understand that the games do support using only one or a few pokemon well, but I shouldn't have to play that way to avoid being limited by the npc levels. The games easily could've supported both playstyles by having better route levels or more of a difference between later gyms, but instead were left so that only one worked completely. That is my problem with johto, not that my playstyle isn't good, but that ANY playstyle could be made significantly worse than another through the game design.
>>53097125It's so simple. A game IS good if it appeals to at least one demographic really effectively (Which is what johto fans are saying), but a game ISN'T bad if it completely fails to appeal to some other demographic (Which isn't what you appear to be saying). Games are inherently going to appeal to some, and not to others, we're just saying that you need to understand this
>>53097664>a game IS good if it appears to at least one demographicAnd it could be better if it appealed to more, like almost every other game in the series does.I do understand your point, the problem is you don't understand mine. I don't think Johto is bad, it's just not great. But when I talked about that opinion, I get tossed in with the many boogeymen the crazier johto fans have and told I'm just bad and wrong, and I'm sick of the echo chambers those same crazy fans make every day to convince each other that their conspiracy theories are real.
>>53092415>It would be dlc instead of a full game>in a market filled with "new" games that are the same as the previous like FIFA -current year-Bait. But just to be clear, Johto without the kanto post game has about the same size and content as kanto had in RGBY.>>53097125You can beat the game with several different playstyles, hell speedrunners only use one or three mons at most when apparently the recommended playstyle is only using 6 pokemon or so. With proper strategy you can even beat enemies that have 20 or 30 levels above you, even without acess to ridiculous abilities or movesets that allow you to beat the most difficult AI opponent with a level 1 com mon like in later gens. After you beat the red gyarados you can get an EXP.Share that allows you to level up recently catched mons without having to switch them out in battle.The only "playstyle" GSC doesn't support is filling the pokemon storage system with level 99 mons of every kind, but even then If you are willing to use the box cloning glitch (and gamefreak were definitely aware of it considering they tried to patch it up in crystal and changed the system entirely in RSE), you can get as many TM's, rare candies and master balls as you could possibly want without issues.
>>53097629>choosing 6 pokemon that I want to use>the playstyle Johto punishesWe’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I have never found this to be the case in GSC, even with bad team comps (like a mono bug run). Again, the “problem” as you describe it sounds like a common scenario in every old pokemon game, to the point that I really feel like you miss the modern exp share. That’s fine if that’s the case, but you can’t act as if it’s only a GSC / HGSS issue. And for the last time, you can easily tackle gyms / trainers that are 10-20 levels above your mon in GSC if you understand the game’s mechanics. No, this does not require speedrunning / advances techniques (wouldn’t know those, myself). Stat exp and badge boosts go way further than many realize in GSC, much further than EVs alone (in a typical casual run). You really shouldn’t need to grind outside of recruiting new pokemon. I don’t know what you’re doing to think GSC punishes you for having a full party (any more than other old pokemon games), but I can assure you that you’re doing something wrong.
>>53097429>You are a special kind of retard. Stop skimming posts, think about what anons have told you, play the fucking games, and use this information to at least have a more educated opinion.you just did the thing again
>>53081870It's just as easy in HGSS.No game requires you to grind whatsoever
>>53101977Keep saying the same thing, and you’ll keep getting the same response. I’m not sure what you expected.
>>53083385It's an issue with A level curve. The wild Pokemon level curve specifically. It's also an issue that extends to regular trainers somewhat.Now, you're right that you shouldn't need to level up on wild Pokemon, but the issue is that if you have to, for whatever reason (This can be things like leveling new Pokemon because you want to try them out), it's going to suck.
>>53102017Nta but I’ve never had issue with it. On my most recent silver run I added a miltank to my team at level 13 but was able to use it right out of the gate at that level because, well, it’s a fucking miltank. Same with Girafarig later, I added one to my team at level 15, and was able to use it right out of the gate because it demolished the rocket grunts in the nearby hideout with confusion. It’s really not that hard to just like, use underleveled Pokémon and have them catch up naturally. Players just don’t wanna bother because it’s not as easy as plowing over everything with an over leveled mon
>>53102647It's definitely possible to have a good experience with the game, but your two examples being single-stage normal types, which are good in the early levels because of their relatively high stats, is not really helping you. Most other pokemon in Johto wouldn't be nearly as useful until the mid 20s or 30s when they evolve, or later if they're unlucky enough to not get their good moves until the 40s.
>>53102708I won’t deny that miltank and girafarig are on the stronger side but it genuinely takes no time at all to get something from 15 to 20, which is all you need. If you want a good place to grind after Morty then the game has one too: use surf to reach the upper part of dark cave from the lower. You’ll only be able to access a small part, but you still get access to the encounters in there, which are Golbat, Graveler, and Wobbufet, all level 20-25, giving loads of Exp.
>>53102708That anon chose poor examples, but there are few pokemon that aren’t helpful in some capacity even if caught at a slightly lower level. It’s a bit of a GSC stereotype, but TMs, most notably Headbutt and the elemental punches, are able to patch holes in many learnsets. Status moves are also horribly underrated in these discussions. The fact remains that GSC was designed in such a way that you can comfortably clear the E4 with a team leveled in the 37-40 range. I swear most of the complaints I see feel like they’re coming from the perspective of “I saw higher level, so I had to level up” when that is less necessary in GSC than (arguably) any other pokemon game. You can’t just rant and rave about “muh grind” while writing off anyone who tells you that your approach to the game is both wrong for GSC and at least part of the reason why you aren’t having fun.The games have plenty of flaws. The level curve really isn’t one of them.
>>53102922>you can comfortably clear the E4 with a team leveled in the 37-40 rangeYou can clear the E4 with just about anything, but it's going to be noticably less fun at a lower level when half of your pokemon are relying on the same few TMs to do any damage.This is a subjective issue, but saying it can't be seen as a problem is objectively wrong.>you can't write off anyone who tells you you're playing wrongSaying that someone is playing wrong completely misses the point of the argument. It shouldn't be possible to play "wrong" when the game directly encourages that playstyle by telling you to catch and train multiple pokemon.You can call amy game perfect by telling anyone who disagrees that they're thinking wrong, it doesn't make it right. I doubt that you would go use the same argument if the same thread was made right now about any other region.
>>53103416>This is a subjective issueSure, so you should rephrase your arguments to clearly communicate what is seen as a subjective issue for (You). You often get what you give in these conversations.>noticably less fun at a lower levelAnd why do you feel this way? In GSC, the boss encounters are manageable for casual teams even when there is a large disparity in levels, and most of the time, a few level ups won’t even result in an improved movepool for your team. From my perspective, this discussion about levels seems like a comfort thing for you. I could kind of understand your point of view in newer games because of modern mechanics and the increased coverage for most enemy encounters. Challenging the final fight in SV’s Area Zero is more challenging (in my opinion) at a ~10 level deficit than challenging Red in GSC at a ~20-30 level deficit.>game directly encourages that playstyle by telling you to catch and train multiple pokemonYou keep falling back on this. The game doesn’t tell you how many to train, nor does it tell you to complete the dex before the story. The party system’s limitations encourage you to stick with around 6 mon for a playthrough, and I have never experienced an excessive grind as a result (barring some exceptions like late-game giftmon). You are choosing to play in a way that is hindering your own enjoyment. If you start overtaking trainer levels, start dodging them; you’ll probably want to conserve that exp for new party members anyway.I understand you clearly have an established way to play these games, but a little flexibility and game knowledge would go a lot way towards facilitating your own enjoyment.>I doubt that you would go use the same argument if the same thread was made right now about any other region.Irrelevant assumption. I’ve conceded on a few complaints with GSC, and I’m sure I’d do the same on a case-by-case basis with other games.
>>53103619>and why do you feel this wayBecause the leveling system in Pokemon isn't as simple as just the numbers. When almost all of your team's progression is tied to levels, that 5-10 level gap means way more at 30 than it does at 60, and either you're destroying the NPCs with something that has reached its full potential against random NFEs, or using underpowered mons in long repetitive battles because you don't have any other options, especially in older games when most movepools are 90% weak non-STAB moves and the most useless status options. A level 50 pokemon fighting a level 60 is a pretty even battle, a level 20 fighting a level 30 is usually very one-sided. The latter hapoens more often in Johto than basically any other region, and it makes the second half of the game feel like you're making barely any progress no matter how many battles you win>the game doesn't tell you how many to train They teach you how to catch pokemon, give you a bunch of pokeballs, tell you where to get more pokeballs, and then show you the PC where you can swap around your pokemon to decide which 6 will be in your team. The clear implication is that you will be catching pokemon all throughout your journey, and could use different ones at different times. This is also supported by the early-gen idea of pokemon like bug types being useful early and then replaced once stronger options are available. Even if you only ever catch 6 pokemon, the odds of them all being in the first few routes is low, and only falls if you play the game multiple times, which makes the difference even more noticable if you catch something and it's 10 levels weaker than the rest of your team, on par with the routes, but nealry useless in the gyms.
>>53103713I can see the argument about level disparities mattering more at lower levels making sense, especially where evolutions are involved.>either you're destroying the NPCs with something that has reached its full potential against random NFEs, or using underpowered mons in long repetitive battlesThe name of the game is exp management. I (almost) never find myself in either of these scenarios because I don’t allow myself to over level even when my team hasn’t been completed (less than 6). I will actively avoid trainer battles once my team has caught up to them (assuming my team is incomplete), so I can revisit them for easier leveling with new recruits. As for times where my team is underleveled, we’ve established that it doesn’t really matter, and that goes double for the level ranges where it occurs most noticeably (Clair, E4, and Red). You, the player, have active and dynamic control over your experience.>most movepools are 90% weak non-STAB moves and the most useless status options. You realize this applies to enemy trainers too, right? Those “useless” status moves are really effective at compensating for level disparities, as well. The AI can’t into swapping.>could use different ones at different timesKey word being “could”. The implication is that you could do this, not that it will necessarily be useful to do so.>This is also supported by the early-gen idea of pokemon like bug types being useful early and then replaced once stronger options are available.AKA The trap every kid falls into in their first run. I’ve always viewed that as a hard lesson on being choosy with party members and boxing early evos ASAP. A few exceptions exist (Butterfree), but in keeping with the theme of GSC, there are plenty of stereotypical early route mon (Ledian, Ariados, Furret). Knowingly using this type of mon is an open invitation to a future grind.
>>53103867>this applies to enemy trainers tooRight, which is what makes the battles just long instead of difficult. If it was actually a tough battle and you had options to make a strategy for itz the low levels cpuld ve interesting, instead both sides are just using whatever basic attacks and status they have over and over again like you just got your starter and it's the first rival battle.
>bro you just need to dodge every trainer and then backtrack to fight them for exp even though you could just fight normal encounters for exphmm i wonder who is playing the game wrong here...
>>53103965>Right, which is what makes the battles just long instead of difficult.Not really. As discussed before, Headbutt is a pretty solid, widely available move available to physical attackers, and moves like Surf + the elemental punches are available to patch up a lot of special attackers (or at least provide coverage to anything with passible special attack).I just did a run. Most pokemon only need a STAB move and a decently powerful move to run off their better attacking stat. Battles don’t take much longer (if at all), but you may feel that way if you compare them to modern games where you have vastly improved coverage and can more easily unga your way through everything.Donphan was an easy MVP, and his moveset prior to the Earthquake TM was Headbutt, Mud Slap, Rollout, and Defense Curl. Does that sound bad? Yeah, probably kek. But by taking advantage of Donphan’s thumping attack stat, I was able to take enemies out quickly, and by allowing for the possibility of setting up and/or inflicting status, Donphan was able to perform critical functions in battles where I was at a disadvantage.
>>53104016>needs the game to hold his handYou are the problem.
>>53104079You're kind of missing my point again, it wasn't that the moves available aren't good enough to win, it's that your team isn't getting the chance to improve. Taking your example, you can have something learn Headbutt around gym 3, and have a Pokemon like Geodude using Defense Curl/Rollout as early as gym 1, but the game should be able to "evolve" mechanically from that point with different moves and strategies. Anything can use a strong Normal attack for the entire game and win, but that isn't an interesting battle, it's the same Tackle vs Scratch that you had from the first time you battled scaled up across an entire game. Other parts of the series avoid this by having better movepools or higher levels, Johto (and Kanto really) doesn't do either.
>>53104190If the argument is about movepools becoming stagnant, I’ll give you that. That’s something you’ll encounter with any playstyle in GSC, and even if it varies from mon to mon, you’ll usually have something locked in shortly before / after Morty that won’t change until you go to Kanto. To what degree this is or isn’t enjoyable is too subjective to argue.>Johto (and Kanto really)I can appreciate you acknowledging how this isn’t specific to Gen 2. I would argue that you might be giving some future titles too much credit in terms of how much they improved on this issue, but I’m not going through the trouble of pulling up specific examples. Gets messy with so many mon and TMs involved. Certain newer games definitely allow for greater coverage in your movesets, but again, the degree to which this is an improvement over GSC’s restricted movesets is too subjective for me to argue. I do appreciate the enhanced movesets when it comes to pvp and battle facilities, however.
>>53103416Being underleveled is one of the few ways to make the game interesting and tense.
>>53105854When you're later in the game and being underleveled doesn't mean crippling your team variety, yes. When you're level 20 and the NPCs are 30, it's just beating your head against a wall.
>>5310587910 level difference just means you actually need to make sure you have a strategy beyond clicking the the stongest attack you can. Even the gen 2 ai can rry all kinds of strategies, recently i was taking on misty in crystal with a bunch of level 20s and was really surprised when her lapras used perish song to force a switch, or sabrina who used mr mime to setup screens and batton pass to alakazam without having it suffer damage from swapping in.
>>53106825>10 level difference just means you need to actually make a strategyYes, but most interesting strategies are locked behind higher levels. This entire converstation already happened once in this thread. Just read through it if you want to hear the whole thing, I'm not writing it out again.
>>53089651lying is unhealthy you know, autist.
Hot damn! Is this thread still alive? The last time I came here was probably about three days ago.Because I read all the comments but don't know who with who, thus, allow me to not spam (you)s. As someone who lived in an era when the internet didn't explode, the most accurate measure to determine where you are is level. You can easily find a list of information on google (including mechanics) with just a few keywords now but not at that time. As some anons said, even if you know about type effectiveness and weakness, most move pools are 90% weak non-STAB, but you don't even know about it until you catch it. Instead of looking for something you can't see, you'll prefer to rely on something immediately visible: level. So kids my age were all freaked out when they saw that Red's Pikachu was level 88, while the closest trainer and Pokemon you saw were between 4x~5x, there is no other way but grind. This is why people hold a grudge against the Johto level curve. Of course, with today's massive amount of information, Johto is a joke. You can't just blame others for playing the game wrong because If you really need to read the manual to play a game right then it's a bad design. The game simply gives you a starter, teaches you how to catch, then set you free so that you can create your own adventurer, nothing more.
>>53109453Those people weren’t wrong for how they played; shitting your pants at level ~80 Red mons and going to grind like the Karate Kid was an intended and based reaction
>>53109453So basically the whole crux of the issue is that the game made the final boss of the game worthy of his title. >you can't just blame others for playing the game wrong because If you really need to read the manual to play a game right then it's a bad design. That’s not a Johto problem that’s been a consistent problem since the RBY. pokemon as a whole doesn’t do a good job at teaching the player how anything works, and NPC’s almost never use any real strategy so you learn nothing from them. So they only way most players know how to beat the few mildly tough opponents is by brute forcing it with levels. Fuck, RBY didn’t even have move descriptions, half the bosses have only normal moves, so good luck learning about types, assuming that the super effective massage doesn’t lie to you. And Gen 3’s battle frontier is worshipped even though it hinges entirely on the player understanding mechanics of that the game never bothered to show, yet Gen2 and only Gen2 ever gets called out on not teaching the player. Most newer game still teach player fuck all about actual strategy, they just shove EXP up your ass and give your Pokémon shonen protagonist privileges. The school section of SV is the only time Pokemon ever bother to actually try teach players about the game, ans i guantantee the vast majority of Pokémon fans didn’t see because they just skipped through e school section. because Masuda was right, most Pokefans are too busy staring at their phones shitposting about how Whitney doesn’t use a Miltank to actually use any of the extra features in Pokémon games
>>53109453>Red's Pikachu was level 81Edited. Because when I was writing those lines, I mistakenly looked at HGSS.>>53109724I don't think RBY gameplay is a bad design. At that time, technology and techniques were limited, thus no tooltips. You can play Pokemon without going too deep about it. It's just that kids could take time longer to beat something. For other generations, the champion's level is not too different from the nearby trainer, but Red does, and usually, kids consider it the main content of the game, not the sidequest or postgame. Also, some trolls keep adding fuel to the fire, definitely, gen 2 is not the worst gen for whatever reason. If you really don't like it, just ignore them, even me don't think too much about it.>The school section of SV is the only time Pokemon ever bother to actually try teach players about the game, ans i guantantee the vast majority of Pokémon fans didn’t see because they just skipped through e school section. because Masuda was right, most Pokefans are too busy staring at their phones shitposting about how Whitney doesn’t use a Miltank to actually use any of the extra features in Pokémon gamesThis is the truth. Sad but Masuda was right, he's the one who makes the game so he understands that best. Honestly, even my kid only plays to the Area Zero part at best and then he throws the game there. It's only me who continues to learn about side quests because I don't want to waste 60$.
>>53081726That's actually not possible without cheating, there's a 2h long vid if a guy that tried floating on YouTube.Basically you reach cap around the first league iirc and from there it's hard af to progress, blue fight is cancer and red is straight up not possible.
>>53109453>>53109471>I shit my pants when I saw the BIG numbers :,( therefore game is BADDoes not compute. As a kid, I always just tried over and over till I won, even if I was underleveled.
>>53110877>johto fan plays like a drooling retardshocker
>>53109453I don’t know if it’s fair to base your judgement on what we did as kids because that’s exactly why modern games are overly handholdy. >be me>can barely fucking read>but oh shit, my Feraligatr and Graveler are strong>bumble my way through Johto, stumbling into most mandatory events by chance>get stuck for well over a year in Ice Path>eventually grow another brain cell>stomp everything, Red included, with my two overleveled monIt was memorable, but I wouldn’t call it the ideal (or typical) experience. Maybe a kid would think “Number too low. Game hard.”, but in GSC, this really isn’t the case. Enemy encounters rarely have the coverage to hit your weakness / bad defensive stat. My second, significantly less retarded, run was more typical, having a seemingly significant level deficiency at the usual points and making it work.Now if you want to discuss how certain changes could have improved the experience (more attack descriptions, reusable TMs, etc), I could get behind that. The trope of old RPGs having dogshit attack / mechanic descriptions has always been a pet peeve of mine. Makes strategy feel more like trial and error until you actually know how everything works.
>>53109932is that with no items or something?because i cannot imagine that spinarak is incapable of beating red with X items and hyper potions.
>>53110915>Not spending hours grinding for no reason = retardedWhat could anon have possibly meant by this?
>>53111455>battling the boss over and over until you win>not grindingIt's getting your exp in a different place, but still definitely grinding.
>>53112975Retard, I meant that I retry the battle with different strategies or approaches instead of just power leveling. In any case I've never gained a significant amount of exp that way, I'd need to challenge them and lose so many times that all my money would be gone
I just wanted a Murkrow for my playthrough. They couldn't have put one in the early routes at Night time?
>>53115058Careful, you'll just get complaints about Hitmontop with that image, try this one instead.
>>53115743So you agree it's biased trash complaining about stuff that happens in literally every other pokemon game.
>>53115743>nooo anon, don't post the one that shows how biased we are against johto specifically - we'll get exposed!
>>53116009Not, I just knew that you would say it was, and skipping to the end would be easier than letting that disaster happen again.
>>53116036>>53116043kek based, fuck nugen shitters
>>53116043>>53116036Don't care, I shouldn't have to beat the champion to get a Murkrow. It's not a Tyranitar. I want to play the game with the cool bird.
>>53116043You're right that nearly all those happen in all Games, and nearly all the complaints about Gen2 are double standards, but there is no reason we shouldn't have access new Gen2 Pokemon during Johto part of the game since that would only improve the game.. Porguon2 and Blissey are evolutions to Kanto pokemon so those are more forgivable. Tyranitar could considered "overpowered" but the game has no problem handing you a Dratini. IF anything Slugma and Misdreavus should have been rare spawns people call your for while Yanma and Dunsparce should have been in the bug catching contest or something. Also you need to removed Sneasel and replace it with Murkrow and Misdreavus.
>>53116036How is silver cave, a place I can only access after beating every relevant NPC except Red "halfway through the game"?
>>53086384Bruh there is almost always a Johto "comfy"/circlejerk thread in the catalog but keep believing that there is some agenda
>>53116415To be fair, if you're playing Crystal, all of the 'postgame' mons are about halfway through, since Sneasel is in Ice Path and Larvitar is available at the Celadon Game Corner.
>>53116432>board dedicated to the discussion of Pokemon. >"hey guys, Johto is based, let's have a thread for our favourite games!" >NOOOO YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO LIKE POKEMON ON THIS POKEMON BOARDLmao, fuck off
>>53116036>So it doesn't apply to the definitive version of the game?Pokemon availability shouldn't need definitive versions to be good.>halfway through the game vs. ChampionI'm sorry, but Kanto is NOT the halfway point of the game. It is no more than a third of the game's content at best. Yes, it has the same number of badges as Johto. No, it does not have the same amount of crap going on and most of it is "Walk down mostly empty route to new town, beat gym, repeat".>This applies to every Gen though?That's why they said outright that it shouldn't be a surprise? They're being thorough in their documentation.>"Got lucky" AKA being good at the gameGetting the right phone numbers is not a matter of getting good. You have no indication as to which trainers will give you useful phone calls and you have a phone that can store a mere ten numbers - three of which are given to Mom, Elm, and Bill. Without outside help, your option is luck.>How is this a negative thing? (happiness)Yeah I don't get this one either.>Lmao cry harder or git gud, bitchThe method of getting Hitmontop is hella dumb though.>negative thing? (Headbutt)Again, no clue why it's bad for Aipom, but the specific trees thing is always dumb. Or are you going to say that Munchlax is a good mechanic in DP?>Oh no, you have to explore the region?How many mons in RGB were hidden in a single patch of grass that requires backtracking and navigating a maze?>Oh no, I have to try and win??I'm pretty neutral on this point so I have nothing to say.>So not a negative then. Cool.Yeah, because the image isn't a hatefest, it's about documenting everything.>"Get lucky" (roaming)Finding the roaming legends is purely luck-based. Catching them after isn't, but finding them absolutely is. It's annoying.>Version exclusives? Free Pokemon?Again, they're not complaining in every point, just breaking shit down. You'd understand that if you weren't outraged that somebody doesn't rate your sacred cow as 10/10.
>>53116607> Again, no clue why it's bad for Aipom, but the specific trees thing is always dumb. Or are you going to say that Munchlax is a good mechanic in DP?NTA but the levels of bullshit you have to go through for that is far worse than the specific headbutt trees thing
>>53116607>defending the crying bitch in the original image >"noooooo I have to actually play the game rather than having the roaming legendaries and rare Pokemon handed to me on a plate, my zoomer brain can't cope" Pokemon is clearly not the game for you. I honestly don't know what you are doing on this website.
>>53116607>comparing the fucking honey trees in DPPt to headbutting trees in GSC HAHAHAHAHA, good one
>>53116607>Yeah, because the image isn't a hatefestIt absolutely is. You can tell it's made in bad faith because he loses his cool when talking about Hitmontop.
>>53116356Not that anon, but it really is the hypocrisy that kills me with the availability argument. The honey trees in Gen 4 are worse than anything in GSC, and Palafin’s evolution method is definitive proof that Game Freak is still full on retarded when it comes to pokemon availability / distribution. Feebas was worse than the headbutt tree mon, and Hoenn could have easily had more shitty restrictions (like Sinnoh that came later) if it actually had post game areas.It’s a dumb argument to make when nearly every entry in the series has these issues. At least with GSC, you can almost understand why they did it. These days, it’s an even dumber argument when you could easily modify the wild encounters yourself and play on an emulator (or even the original hardware). Too lazy? A lot of romhacks attempt to address the issue.
>>53109932Sir.People are beating this game and other games from this franchise with Magikarp and Unown. Level 100 Spinarak is perfectly capable to maul everything.
>>53111461Poor guy. Even in the remake, he can't do that eitherhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SB958RCm6U
>>53111461Watched. I think it's still doable even without items. The problem is that Charizard will definitely OHKO Spinarak. Thus, he has to find a way to make Spinarak survive against Zard. Coincidentally, Spinarak can learn Double team and Flash. https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stat#Generations_I_and_II_2Gen 2 doesn't have the badge boost glitch, but evasion alone is enough. The common thing I always see among PokeTubers is that they never optimize the status move. Maybe, they think it's there so the rival can lose to them.
>>53116826>nearly every entry in the series has these issuenot really, and platinum fixes DP
>>53118385> platinum fixes DPno it doesn’t, it just makes it go from the worst game in the series to just a regular bad game.
>>53081644Bull fucking shit, retard
>>53118385To varying degrees, they really have. If we’re being nitpicky, even Gen 1 fucked up in hindsight by having trade evos and version exclusives.
>>53116826I don't think anyone is really ever saying only Johto has problems, you just hear about Johto's problems more because its fans keep trying to convince people they don't exist. Sinnoh being terrible comes up almost as often thanks to the constant deflection, but discussion of it doesn't last as long because its fans don't go make other threads or edit images to deny it. Johto fans are just as responsible for it being constantly talked about as the "haters"
>>53119844>*Johto hate thread* >this is clearly the work of Johto fans! I think you might be educationally subnormal, anon.
>>53119889Did you even read the post? I'm not saying Johto fans make every johto "hate" thread, I'm saying they keep them alive by constantly trying to convince people they're wrong instead of just letting the thread happen and die. And then they go and make cope threads to tell each other everyone else is crazy, only to jump headfirst into the next thread they don't like and scream like a pychopath about how there are conspiracies against them.There was literally a thread about Sinnoh yesterday with basically the same OP as this one, and yet it didn't last as long or get as aggressive, because it wasn't kept alive by desperate Sinnoh fans trying to cope.
>>53119977Yes, I read the post. You're basically saying that Johto fans defending their favourite games is the reason some people hate Johto. A petty and sub-80 IQ reason to hate something. >le Sinnoh thread didn't last as long xD Because Johto is more popular, thus it will have more defenders. Use your brain, anon.
>>53119844You’ve got people on both sides, usually just posting in reaction to obvious shitposts.GSC isn’t perfect, but the distribution really isn’t an issue for a regular playthrough, certainly no more so than just about every other pokemon game. It’s a silly thing to get worked up over. Play a basic GSC romhack if it bothers you this much, though you may have to deal with new dumb stuff. I just find the “look how shit GSC is” posting is to be a little ironic, given the series we’re discussing. People never even point out objective flaws (moon ball) or QoL (reusable TMs).
>>53119996>you're saying johto fans defending their games is why people hate johtoNo, I'm saying johto fans bumping hate threads and attacking people in them is why anti-johto threads happen more amd last longer, because you feed bait and annoy anyone who would otherwise he neutral.>>53120059I agree that the distribution isn't too terrible in a first normal playthrough, but I think it becomes noticeable pretty quickly on repeats. Assuming you've played a Kanto game before, you'll run out of anything in early Johto you haven't used pretty quickly, and then the level curve messes with you if you're adding team members later.
>>53120091Personally, coming from Kanto’s large dex, there were plenty I hadn’t used in RBY, and the mechanical differences in GSC are large enough to keep things fresh between the two. Adding new team mates could be a hassle, but for whatever reason, I’ve never had much of an issue with it, myself. Probably conditioned from an early age to conserve exp sources.
>>53120091>Assuming you've played a Kanto game beforeYeah dude, because everyone who played Gen 1 used ALL 151 Pokemon to the fullest extent. >nooooo my autism means I have to only use Johto Pokemon in Gen 2 That's a you problem.
>>53120331>everyone has used ALL 151 pokemonYou're misunderstanding my point, which was that they would have used the pokemon available early on because they were also early in Kanto. There's only so many times you can have a Pidgeot or Raticate on your team, and even if you take some of the Kantomons that were rare in RBY and relatively early in GSC like Tauros or Exeggcute, that's not going to last long either.Also, assuming you're the same one getting mad at me giving johto fans partial blame, I hope you're aware of >>53119969Being made within minutes of this thread hitting bump limit.
>>53120439Not him. I’m fine with you having your opinion, but after doing a quick headcount, Crystal has 31 different Kanto lines available to the player before beating Whitney, including rare mon like Scyther and mon with new evolutions like Zubat. This is also ignoring the potential for early access to another line from the odd egg. It’s hard to imagine that most players have used all of these options, especially within Gen 2 where team building was likely focused on choosing new pokemon.Not trying to argue. I just think you’re underselling the variety of team options in GSC.
>Because Johto is more popularlollmao