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Johto/Gen 2 are the worst games. HG/SS could have been the best in the franchise if they fixed Johto's fundamental issues in addition to all the new features they added. Change my mind.
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tell me what those fundamental issues are, first
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>>46301484
Sure. Johto Pokemon in general are vastly underutilized; gym leaders don't use them when you'd expect them to and they are not as common in the wild. Some of them aren't even obtainable until Kanto, which is an awful design decision. Speaking of bad design, a lot of the new Pokemon have very lackluster or plain designs. Especially when you compare them to some of the beta designs/plans (I can post a link to you want), it seems like the mon design philosophy was "limit personality and novel choices, make things more plain." Look at this Mantine beta sprite!! I love him.

However, the above is all complaints that don't impact the gameplay. The level curve is absolute trash, partially due to the fact that everything between Morty and Claire can be done in any order. I believe it's also the region with the lowest levelled Elite Four, if I'm not mistaken. Thank god for that, because it's near impossible to get a team of 4, much less a Team of 6 up to par without hours of grinding.

Kanto itself has issues as well, but I'm less concerned with Gen 2 Kanto because it's more bonus content in my eyes. Happy to get into it though if you want to know my thoughts on that too!
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>>46301477
I agree Johto is the worst, but tbf it's not like any of the other remakes fixed any of the Gens original problems either. I don't know why they're so autistic about being 'faithful' to the point of even accurately recreating the shitty parts
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>>46301593
anon he's baiting, johtofags are literally incapable of listening to criticism
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>>46301600
ORAS fixed lack of wild route diversity and made water routes less tedious with additional secrets and Soaring, which is the main issue for Gen 3. FRLG fixed bland character design with that Key Item that provided background for almost every important NPC, and fixed tons of technical issues. HGSS was amazing in what it added, I just wish it went the extra mile in fixing Johto, as well.
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>>46301639
I don't think bland characters was Gen 1's major flaw lol
Neither remake made the region any less boring, and neither of them let you use any of the cross-gens added later on. They tweaked the Gyms a little but they're still among the easiest of the series.

ORAS didn't use Emerald's plot or Gym improvements, despite them already being there to be copied - literally just out of sheer autism

HGSS made a couple of Pokemon more available, and it was nice that you could actually use cross-gens in this one, but why the fuck didn't any of the Gym leaders use them? If anything the Gyms are now even easier in the remake because the player gets all these extra options and the Gyms are stuck in the past refusing to update their teams.
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>>46301477
How does it feel to have irreversibly shit taste?
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Falkner: no Hoothoot or Noctowl? Seriously?
Bugsy: keeping Scyther as your ace is fine, but really only Metapod and Kakuna as your other Pokemon? not even Ledyba/Spinarak?
Whitney: fine. Stantler/Dunsparce over Clefairy could've been fine, but Clefairy fits her vibe.
Morty: four pokemon, and they're all in the Gengar line. No Misdreavus?
Chuck: only two Pokemon, and they're Poliwrath and Primeape. Hitmontop?
Jasmine: Steelix good, but having two Magnemites? Why not a Magneton, or Scizor/Forretress/Skarmory?
Pryce: Ice types are lacking in Johto, no comment.
Clair: same as Pryce
Will: could've had Girafarig instead of second Xatu
Koga: good!
Bruno: fighting types are limited in Johto why have two specialists? But also why no Heracross?
Karen: fine, but why aren't most of these available pre-Elite Four?
Lance: fine I guess
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>>46301737
I think Gen 1's major flaw was Pokemon and region designs, but that's kind of expected from the first game in the series and something not fixable in a remake. ORAS didn't use Emerald and that sucks, I agree.
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>>46301761
What's shit about it? Johto is comfy and has amazing music and towns for a Gameboy Color game, but it has the worst issues with Pokemon design, NPC teams, and level curve in the franchise imo
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>>46301819
>Pokemon design

man what
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>>46301807
>something not fixable in a remake
It was entirely fixable to diversify some of the routes instead of leaving everything as a generic grass path bound by fences. They couldn't even put an actual volcano on Cinnabar?
Rigidly sticking to the original map in remakes is the worst part of the remakes by far, it's so pointless to even bother 'updating' the game if we're still stuck in a world bound by 90s technical limitations.
It's even worse now in the jump to 3D and we're retreading grid-based maps with free movement. It's so fucking lazy
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>>46301846
In general most of the designs are fine/passable, but not a lot are stand outs in my opinion. Mareep line, Slugma line, Chinchou, Phanpy, Mantine, Gligar, Togepi line. Making matters a little worse, the majority of those are either outclassed by their beta designs, lose great features when they evolve, are hard to obtain, or are just bad to use in-game.
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>>46301477
None of the shortcomings of Gen 2 are significant enough to detract the games from 10/10. They are often wildly exaggerated, deliberately misrepresented or sometimes flat out untrue, all because people are fueled by gen wars rather than real impartial game critique, and because some people are jealous of Gen 2 for being the most highly regarded games among dedicated Pokemon fans.
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>it doesn't need proper level scaling
>it doesn't need to have challenging gyms
>it doesn't need to be challenging at all up to Red
>it doesn't need good pacing and story
>it doesn't need a good evil team
>it doesn't need a proper climax for the evil team's plot
>it doesn't need good Pokemon variety
>it's not a problem if the Pokedex is bloated with unusable shitmons
>it's not a problem if most good gen 2 Pokémon aren't even usable until after the 7th gym or even only in the post game
>it's not a problem if most gym leaders use gen 1 mons
>it's not a problem if Kanto's inclusion is half-assed
>it's not a problem if Cyndaquil's entire evolutionary line has the exact same stats as Charmander's
>it's not a problem if Feraligatr is missing a vowel
>it's not a problem if Meganium is underwhelming compared to the two other starters
>it's not a problem if the hp bars are as slow as DP's
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>>46302013
I wouldn't say Gen 2 is the most highly regarded among "dedicated" fans, that would probably be HGSS or Gen 5 games. What do you think is exaggerated or misrepresented? I'd love to talk about some legitimate game critique and design elements.
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>>46302013
this post is exactly why everyone hates johtofags
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>>46302038
OP here, I even forgot about Team Rocket's plotline being absolutely stupid and thrown in without much thought. Not that Pokemon games need a good story necessarily, but wow Gen 2 has a weaker story than even Gen 1. Hard to beat. And yeah, level scaling is even worse when you consider having to grind up for Red. Kanto in general is a mess.

I consider the "shitmons" thing to be personal preference; the game is easy enough that it doesn't matter if a lot of the Pokemon aren't great stats-wise. Some of the babies are also good for using rarer Kanto Pokemon early in your journey and...but they're not really present in the early game. The three things you listed about the starters aren't a huge deal, though.
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>>46302065
>What do you think is exaggerated or misrepresented?
Well the most common exaggerated complaint I see is that "most" or "too many" new Pokémon can't be obtained until the postgame. But it's really only a small handful with Magcargo, Murkrow, Houndoom, Porygon2, Blissey, Tyranitar, Misdreavus and Sneasel. Far from most and certainly not too many, because what kind of game design would it be if you beat the game, went to a new region and had no more surprises to uncover whatsoever in terms of wild Pokémon? And imagine if Mt. Silver, the final dungeon in the game that's only unlocked after conquering two regions and getting 16 badges, had no special wild Pokémon in it. It would have nearly the same encounter table as Union Cave but with evolved forms.
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I like em
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>>46302128
I know. People hate Johto because they WANT to hate Johto out of spite, but can't come up with any valid reasons besides that. It's like being a Mario fan and seeing someone try to shit on SMB3 just because they're a SMW fanboy or something.
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>>46302038
>it's not a problem if Feraligatr is missing a vowel
why the hell did you include this literally who gives a shit
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>>46302204
Because the post is a bait pasta.
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>>46301618
johto is the second best region after sinnoh. cope swshtard.
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Johto can't be the worst when Gen3 and Gen8 exists
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>>46302160
That's a fair point, thanks for actually responding. 12% of the region isn't great, but isn't necessarily terrible. I think what makes it feel like "most" or "too many" to people is the fact that Johto lacks so many new fully evolved Pokemon to begin with (with all the new prevos), and then 8 more options are locked in the Postgame. Are all new Ghost and Dark types exclusive to the postgame? If Kanto were structured to feel more like an extension of the journey (with an Elite Four rematch before Red), then it would make sense to keep adding to your team as you go through Kanto, especially seeing as the first Elite Four is so low-leveled. I think it would make more sense to lock some of the Kanto Pokemon to Kanto, and the "new" Pokemon you get from the postgame would be their evolutions. For example, Onix would only be in Kanto, so your reward for getting to Kanto would be to access Steelix. This would make much more sense from an in-game perspective.

Then going off this, Mt. Silver could have the new evolved forms like Scizor and Steelix. Getting access to Larvitar in return for getting all the badges is a cool idea, but I think could be better executed with a Legendary rather than an evolvable line you would want to use in your journey.
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>>46302160
Sneasel, Misdreavus, Murkrow, and even Magcargo all suck for in-game use, especially if you only lock them into the postgame where they're outclassed by evolved Pokemon. Would've been better to use them earlier. Fire type options in Johto are very very limited, however -- it would've been nice to have Houndoom, especially to have that Dark typing.
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>>46302197
people don't like johto because they play it and it isn't fun
they get bored of seeing raticate, noctowl and zubat on literally every single route in the entire game, while knowing that better pokemon exist and are being arbitrarily locked away for no reason
they get bored of endless boring empty cities and routes that were all left barren to fit in an entire extra region - that is also empty and barren and has nothing to do besides a boring boss rush (that isn't even hard, because Gen 2 is completely allergic to giving any kind of challenge to its bosses)
they get bored of the Gyms being probably the easiest in the entire series, at least on par with Kanto/Kalos, and the complete lack of any stakes in the Team Rocket subplot (if 'the bad guys want to make a phone call' can even be called a subplot)

then they go on /vp/, wondering how anyone ever enjoyed this shitty Gen, but when they ask, the '''''people'''' who like Johto just say that empty regions, no cool pokemon and no interesting gameplay is 'soul', call them a zoomer and pat themselves on the back like they won the argument
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>>46302218
Sinnoh is super dope but suffers from a lot of similar design issues that Johto did (namely, bad Pokemon distribution). Platinum fixed a lot of that, though! I wish HGSS would've done the same for Johto.
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>>46302197
I've never seen anyone hate on SMB3 I thought it was universally loved.
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>>46301593
>gym leaders don't use them when you'd expect them to
Why would I expect them to?
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>>46302360
Why wouldn't you expect gym leaders to use the exact same Pokemon from the previous game/region and not the new Pokemon from the game/region you're currently playing?
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>>46302348
Yeah that's the point. I've never seen anyone hate on SMB3 except for a couple of spiteful people who prefer SMW. The reverse is true as well. Those feelings are born out of a desire to defy the consensus rather than anything to do with the games themselves.
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>>46302399
I mean, there's plenty of reasons that have been listed above. You can assert that those reasons don't impact your personal opinion/enjoyment of the game and region but it's not as if the reasons don't exist at all/are just born to defy the consensus.
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>>46302399
>rather than anything to do with the games themselves
>he says while blatantly ignoring any actual criticism
Again, this is why everyone hates johtofags
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FUCK MANTINE
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>>46302380
But all of them do use Pokemon from the region I'm playing. Morty uses Gastly line, Gastly can be found in one of the first areas of Johto. Where's the issue exactly?
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>>46302479
Still have yet to see any "actual criticism" that's not exaggerated nonsense or plain falsehood.
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>>46302559
but any criticism I'll make, you'll just claim is exaggerated or false, so what's the point?
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>>46302559
Team Rocket storyline is objectively very weak
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>>46302555
I mean, if you don't get tired of seeing only Gen 1 Pokemon, I'm sure you don't mind. But having a Johto gym leader use no Pokemon introduced in Johto and just use old Pokemon is boring.
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>>46301477
I can’t change your mind because you’re right.
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finally someone said it
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>>46302654
>I mean, if you don't get tired of seeing only Gen 1 Pokemon,
Why would I get tired of seeing Pokemon if I'm playing a sequel to Pokemon?
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>>46302013
>for being the most highly regarded games among dedicated Pokemon fans
Johtofags really are delusional
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>>46302593
The point is that you are wrong. There's nothing wrong with the level curve because it's built around the nonlinearity of the game (which I realize is a trade-off, not a flawless design choice, but it's a worthwhile one). There's nothing wrong with some Pokémon being rare or hidden because that makes it special and exciting to actually find them. I actually find it ridiculous that some people frame "I thought Skarmory was a Gen 3 mon because I never saw it in Gen 2" as a criticism instead a piece of cool trivia about a rare Pokémon.

>>46302654
Johto gyms use the types not used in Kanto so all of them feel fresh enough. Even the ones that use no new Pokémon (which isn't all of them) give screentime to some Pokémon you might have missed or overlooked in RBY, like Scyther. But even so, them not using the Pokémon you want them to be using is a really personal nitpick, not an objective flaw.

>>46302639
It's an excuse plot to give you a bunch of grunts to fight just like in Gen 1. There's nothing wrong with that. Compared to a game like Sun and Moon, both Gen 1 and 2 made the right choice to not focus on the story because the real story is the one you make out of your Pokémon adventure.

>>46302759
You must hang out in some unusual echo chambers if you're somewhere that HGSS aren't considered the best in the series by the majority of people.
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>>46302013
based johtochad
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>>46302333
cope. johto is the best.
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>>46302013
>>46302160
>>46302197
>>46302218
>>46302559
>>46302832
Based.
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>>46302832
>you are wrong
completely subjective, tard
I just don't understand what aspects of the game johto fans actually DO like

Personally I like to Nuzlocke a lot, so it makes sense why I wouldn't like games that are often considered shitty for nuzlocking
The level curve sucks because you're forced to overlevel half the game for muh non-linearity meme, and underlevel the other half with abslutely no way to grind except wild Pokemon 20 levels lower than you because of retarded level jumps
The complete lack of any Pokemon variety means your team is always exactly the same - which is the OPPOSITE of what I play nuzlockes for
The piss easy bosses are naturally complete shit

What else even is there to enjoy if the gameplay, the battles, and the teambuilding/collection aspects all suck?
The 'Pokémon being rare or hidden because that makes it special and exciting to actually find them' is a line I hear a bunch, and I've never understood how it's a positive thing for the game, considering any enjoyment and satisfaction gained from rare Pokemon can only exist in your first playthrough of the game, and ONLY your first playthrough of the game. Once you already know what Pokemon that are, and where they are, what possible enjoyment could you derive from the 'exploration' and 'discovery'?

Do you just enjoy cool spritework? I'll agree that Gen 2's battle sprites are the absolute best in the franchise, but it's hardly something I'd consider rating the entire game over
Do you just sit in one town and listen to music? Because I guess I could see how someone like that would like Johto
But in every single aspect that, for me, makes Pokemon what it is, is at it's absolute lowest point in Johto
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>>46302980
>I just don't understand what aspects of the game johto fans actually DO like
Nostalgia. That’s it.
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I disagree about the story being very weak in johto. While it does lack an overarching plot, I don't think that's a bad thing, as it lead to lots of neat events that made you feel like you were progressing a town's story.
>Slowpoke well event
>Ampharos medicine event
>Radio tower takeover
>Shuckle gift
>Red Gyarados maintaining its color from magikarp because of the forced evolution

But no one can say the level curve and post-game mons aren't objective flaws. I'm not talking about the gym leaders, I don't think it matters if they're on the easy side, but adding new members to your team is impossible at pretty much any stage of the game because of the wild levels, dark types did not get utilized enough, and it's absolutely meaningless to have "cool" discoveries of rare pokemon if you never get the chance to use them in game.
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>>46301477
johtoddlers are the new genwunners
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>>46302980
If you have warped the game around your own self-imposed rules, then obviously you're gonna feel that way but also your opinion loses a lot of its weight. You don't judge how unfun a Mario game is by playing through it with a limited amount of jumps or not allowing yourself to use long jumps or back flips.
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>>46303077
>ignores literally the entire post
My point was, none of the things I like in Pokemon games are present in Johto

I asked what things YOU like about Pokemon games that ARE present in Johto, and, yet again, you ignore it
I legitimately don't think I've heard anybody praise any aspect of Johto beyond some 'comfy' buzzword. It's always simply a claim of 'popularity = quality' or insulting anyone who criticises it
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>>46302832
Just because the level curve is built around non-linearity doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it. Having an intent doesn't make a bad execution good. The level curve makes the game feel way too easy, and you have to grind on wild Pokemon that are way lower than the opponents you need to fight.

Sun/Moon is an example of rare pokemon done right. Some pokemon in SM are rare but you're rewarded with pokemon with useful typings, abilities, or stats. They're also not locked behind the bulk of the game's content. Skarmory only being available in one route is fine, I think the key takeaway is that it's not really used by any notable trainers either.
Johto routes barely make new pokemon (and usable new pokemon) available at a reasonable point in the game, if you view Kanto as mostly post-game because of its emptiness.

Which brings me to my next point: Johto E4/GL don't have their own unique identity because many just use Kanto pokemon. On the topic of Skarmory, there was both a Flying and Steel gym, but neither used Skarmory. Johto gym leaders aren't as notable bc they just retread with Gen 1 Pokemon. It doesn't stand out from Gen 1 enough on its own. Sure, Gengar getting its own spotlight is cool, but you couldn't just give Morty one Misdreavus? Sure it's personal preference, but it makes Johto feel like a Kanto expansion pack rather than its own region. (Sidenote: why Scyther?? Heracross and Scizor both exist)

There are a lot of narrative reasons why the Gen 2 Rocket plot is bad, but as you'd rather there be no story at all, I'll save my breath here. Gen 1 had a minimal plot and it was fine, Gen 2's is (just like gyms) a boring retread of Gen 1 that makes it feel like an expansion pack.

HGSS (not original Gen 2) is considered among the best, but my point is that I think HGSS would be THE best if it fixed Johto's flaws.
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>>46302160
>only a small handful
>like half of the decent johtomons
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>>46303064
They’ve always been like this for the past 8 or so years, you just didn’t notice because they’d screech about the genwunner boogeyman you deflect.
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>>46303054
Based take. I just wish the Rocket stuff was more cohesive. Harnessing Slowpoke tails and learning how to forcefully evolve is cool, but why did it culminate in a missed phone call to Giovanni?
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>>46303146
to deflect*
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>>46303119
>it makes Johto feel like a Kanto expansion pack rather than its own region.
GSC are a sequel for fuck's sake. Pokemon 2 to RBY being Pokemon 1. Do you also think Chamber of Secrets feels like an "expansion pack" to Philosopher's Stone rather than its own story? Even though the entire point is to continue from the first entry while expanding and adding to the fictional universe?
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>>46303054
ultra based
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>>46303170
You just captured my point exactly. Johto feels like just a sequel to Gen 1 and relies on it too much, instead of feeling like it's own games/regions with a unique identity. Thank you.
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>>46301477
Soul Silver is my favorite Pokemon game, they may as well have stopped there
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>>46303170
BW2 was a sequel and it did literally the opposite of everything GS di
It had greater Pokemon variety than it's predecessor rather than less
Gyms were harder instead of easier
There were more places to explore instead of less
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>>46303181
>Johto feels like just a sequel to Gen 1
BECAUSE IT IS. It was literally made as a SEQUEL and not as an isolated entry.
>relies too much on Gen 1
No it doesn't. Johto has more than enough identity, new settings and characters to stand on its own.
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>>46303054
Radio tower sucked though, it literally just existed because Rocket took over a building last Gen and we need to do that again

>Red Gyarados maintaining its color from magikarp because of the forced evolution
This is even more retarded considering that's literally not even what a shiny is
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>>46303192
>Gyms were harder
AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

>There were more places to explore instead of less
90% of the game is the fucking same as BW1 lmao
GS has an entire fucking new region with new Pokemon in it
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>>46303212
>GS has an entire fucking new region
with nothing in it

>with new Pokemon in it
you mean Sentret and Noctowl?
wow I stand corrected
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>>46303147
Yeah, the amount of nothing in the game is a big detriment. Aside from Red, most of the stuff in the game kind of culminates in a wet fart.
>Cinnabar gone
>underground paths closed
>safari closed
>Kanto dungeons mostly gone
>region in general is shrunken down
>Victory road is the same map from RB but uninteresting; all the trainers outside are shit tier
>Giovanni plot leads to nothing
A lot of stuff in the game is just “hey remember this cool thing in the previous game? It’s gone now.”
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>>46303203
And I think it would be better if designed as an isolated entry rather than a sequel. Johto doesn't compare to the other regions that stand on their own.
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>>46303170
GSC removed half the shit from Kanto though.
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>>46303224
Then you're dumb.
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>>46303192
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>>46303203
>it's a sequel so all those bad things are actually good things
WHY ARE YOU FAGS LIKE THIS?
Why does every criticism get handwaved away with this retarded excuse?
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>>46303205
The difference between radio and silph co. is that you get to see the radio tower before it gets taken over, and I think that just adds a bit of stakes/agency to the player, where you are intervening to rescue people you know rather than just wandering into a mafia takeover by chance. As far as the magikarp thing, I know that's literally not how shinies work, but that's the implication we get from dialogue, and it's really cool that they added lore to this otherwise meaningless new mechanic, even if it only applies to one pokemon
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To anyone saying "the level curve and pokemon diversity isn't a big deal" play through Gold right now. Raise a team of 6 useable pokemon to the level of the Elite Four. Tell me how much fun you have.
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>>46301790
Wow, this is a great point.
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>>46303192
Based BW2chad
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>>46303251
Ok, I’ll do this and report back. Maybe even make a thread about it.
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>>46303249
I think counting a few throwaway optional NPCs that say one line as 'people you know' is a stretch beyond comprehension tbqh
I refuse to believe anyone felt enough affection for these randoms that it affected their gameplay experience in any way
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>>46302333
This is true and you can tell because Johtofags like >>46302936 only have buzzwords and no counterarguments.
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>>46303271
Please do, I'm interested to see what you think.
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>>46303273
that's because you never bothered with the password game, that's your own fault
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>>46303251
i've played through gen 2 multiple times and it is still the most fun set of pokemon games. playing through crystal again and having a blast. the level curve isnt that bad.
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I will never get over Falkner using only Pidgey/level 9 Pidgeotto when the champion of the previous game had a Pidgeot as his ace besides starter.
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>>46303244
They're not bad things. You're just fucking retarded, because it's like complaining that Shrek 2 has Shrek, Donkey and Fiona as the main characters instead of throwing out literally everything Shrek 1 established and built in favor of 100% new characters and settings. Even though GSC does WAY MORE as a sequel than tons of other games and movies you can compare them to.
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>>46303284
I will. I did something similar for a /vp/ debate a while ago, so it shouldn’t be too dissimilar.
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>>46303244
You're right anon, BW2 is shit because it reuses all the gen 5 Pokemon, most of the gym leaders, and has no new region.
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>>46303312
>Shrek 2 was famous for being a great sequel that expanded on everything that came before it in the best way possible
>Gen 2 just takes Kanto shit and does it again
Your shitty Gen was no Shrek 2 lol, it was The Force Awakens
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The thing with Johto is that at the time a concept a generation didn't exist. It was just pokemon 2, and so uses the returning monsters andregion. The new pokemon were supposed to be a rarity and incentive to explore
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>>46303335
>Shrek 2 was famous for being a great sequel that expanded on everything that came before it in the best way possible
So is Gen 2. It's revered by fans and critics alike for being a fantastic sequel.
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>>46303348
>it's a sequel
>bad thing is actually good thing
>it's popular so it's good
You're a broken record
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>>46303360
Only because your skull is so thick that you need to put the same clip on repeat to get the message through.
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>>46303372
Because nobody else thinks 'it's a sequel' suddenly makes every problem in the game disappear
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>>46303386
>every problem in the game
What problems with the game?
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>>46303386
They're not problems and trying to frame them as such is as retarded as saying that Shrek 2 made a mistake by making Shrek the main character again.
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>>46303406
>>46303429
>spend all your time grinding on Pokemon 30 levels lower than you
>anon says 'but it's a sequel!'
>oh shit you're right, this grinding suddenly doesn't exist!

>using Ampharos in every single playthrough because Johto has like 10 Pokemon in total that you're allowed to use
>anon says 'but it's a sequel!'
>well fug suddenly this Ampharos is so much more interesting than the other 1000 I've used already! I don't even like Houdoom anyway haha

>the seventh Gym Leader has a fucking Seel
>anon says 'but it's a sequel!'
>you're right anon now I realise that's aboslutely no way a sequel could have GOOD Gym teams

>the region is made up exclusively of shitty grass paths with no interesting locations to speak of
>anon says 'but it's a sequel!'
>thanks anon! I forgot for a second that being a sequel means interesting places aren't allowed to exist!

>evolution stones are held behind the most retarded RNG system ever devised by man
>anon says 'but it's a sequel'
>water stone mysteriously materializes in my bag
>>
I think many people forget that gen 2 introduced many of the mechanics we still have today, like breeding and gender, held items, two whole new types... people should look past the region and focus on what it did as a game.
>>
>>46301477
Johto for me is like Alola, comfy setting but overall not so great games
>>
>pokemon style
I love the
>Gyms not using johto Mon
Not a real argument
>Level curve
You can't even beat a child's game, not even sure how this meme started
>>
>>46303505
>>spend all your time grinding on Pokemon 30 levels lower than you
Stop being bad at the game.

>>using Ampharos in every single playthrough because Johto has like 10 Pokemon in total that you're allowed to use
Try actually exploring and trying out the different mechanics instead of expecting Pokemon you want to be handed to you. Also by this logic BW2 is bad because the game is 100% old Pokemon.

>>the region is made up exclusively of shitty grass paths with no interesting locations to speak of
Whirl Islands isn't interesting?
Ruins of Alph isn't interesting?
Ice Path isn't interesting?
damn bro I guess BW2 is shit too because it's made up exclusively of shitty grass paths.

>>evolution stones are held behind the most retarded RNG system ever devised by man
So? Try working for the items you want instead of expecting them to be handed to you, zoomzoom.
>>
>>46303851
BASED BASED BASED
>>
>>46303851
this isn't even fun bait, apply yourself
>>
>>46303240
based
>>
>>46303851
>So? Try working for the items you want instead of expecting them to be handed to you, zoomzoom.
Are you retarded? This was literally a paywall since you could get the evo stones via the mystery gift. You're defending a literal scummy micro-transaction
>>
>>46303779
Fair point, but it doesn't make the flaws stick out in a playthrough any less.
>>
>>46304090
what flaws?
>>
>>46302038
>>it's not a problem if Feraligatr is missing a vowel
its fucking not
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>>46304102
Been stated over and over. Lackluster Rocket plotline, boring Pokemon diversity, level curve that makes playing the game really annoying. Lack of good Pokemon, especially new ones.
>>
>>46304250
so you agree BW2 is bad?
>>
OP here, viewing Gen 2 as a sequel justifies some decisions and choices, but not others. The fact that HGSS didn't fix these (it's not like HGSS is a sequel to FRLG as directly) keeps it from being the best in the franchise. Mind not changed yet.
>>
>>46304256
Nah because Black and White 2 are still fun to play! They're not new games in a generation, they're not expected to have a new set of Pokemon, but just remix previous content. Also, they have a fantastic level curve and progression, with minor issues being high evolution levels for Unova pokemon and Difficulty being annoying to unlock. Johto added 100 new pokemon to Kanto but barely used them, and made them a bitch to use bc of bad level curve/progression as well as bad stats.
>>
>>46304256
>>46304299
Very different expectations for a game titled "Black 2" in the same region and generation as "Black" than Gold and Red. Black 2 isn't in a new region that needs to stand on its own vs Unova - it's still set in Unova. Johto shouldn't be as similar to Kanto as it is.
>>
>>46304277
Don’t care lol, in your first sentence you literally said “Johto/Gen2 are the worst games” and “HG/SS could have been the best” but because of a couple issues that irk probably everyone it drops it all the way to the ground, your criterion is laughable and your bait is stinky.
>>
OP here, thanks for the input everyone. I can now conclude that Gen 2 is objectively the best Generation. Thanks for changing my mind, /vp/.
>>
>>46304256
BW2 had great Pokemon diversity, what the fuck are you talking about?
>>
Remarkable how similar the posting habits of Johtofags are to (You)baiting retards
>make constant vague but self-aggrandizing claims of superiority
>spam comfy/zoomzoom memes at anyone who disagrees
>ignore any post of substance that contradict them and keep spamming low-effort shitposts
This thread has confirmed for me that nobody actually likes Johto, it's just a few people pretending for (You)s
>>
>>46304356
HGSS isn't at the bottom at all! I meant more that it's a shame that the problems of the original Johto (which I do think is at the bottom) hold it back; it would be the best if those problems were fixed. It's still a great game. Not bait, just wanted to discuss the game design of Gen 2. I didn't realize how few of the post-game exclusives are actually worth having in the pre-game (just Houndoom and maybe Blissey), and good to know not everyone cares about Gyms only using Kanto pokemon. Thanks for all the discussion, everyone.
>>
>>46304332
>Very different expectations for a game titled "Black 2" in the same region and generation
generations didn't exist when gen 2 came out you retarded underagefag
>>
>>46304469
i like johto unironically.
>>
>>46304487
>generations didn't exist when gen 2 came out
is this really the best you can do
Johto is good because at the time the concept of making better games hadn't occurred to them yet?
>>
>>46304487
It wasn't called Pokemon Red 2 was it? Imagine if a game told you "100 brand new pokemon in an all new region!" and you still only saw old pokemon. Concept of generation or not, your argument doesn't make sense. Besides, it being a direct sequel doesn't fix the level curve making the game unfun to play.
>>
>>46304503
So you agree BW2 is bad?
>>
I can agree with a lot of the criticisms yet I can still go back to it and have a good time. Despite its flaws, the things it added were valuable and aspects like phone calls, radio and breeding made the game feel pretty alive. It had great caves and side routes to explore and I suppose I wish Pokemon kept going in that direction. Gen 3 actually did pretty well in that regard and I look more fondly upon it in hindsight. I was mainly just disappointed as a kid due to not having an extra region and removal of certain things like the day/night cycle. My personal least favorite was B/W, but funny enough it shares some of the flaws people find with Johto.
>>
>>46304630
>Johto side routes
where?
>>
>>46302737

Stop being so purposefully dumb. It's crystal clear what he meant. You're playing a new-gen game and would naturally expect the new pokemon to be featured more heavily because the new game is meant to introduce them, but trainers end up mostly using mons you've already seen and know. That's boring. This is coming from someone who considers gen 2 games to his favorite.
>>
>>46304357
Based.
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>>46305610
>You're playing a new-gen
No, I’m playing a sequel. Generations didn’t exist when GS came out. If I played Super Mario Bros. 2 am I supposed to be mad that Mario and Luigi and Peach are the main focus again?
>>
>>46301477
Why would I change the mind of somebody who is correct?
>>
>>46305610

All I can offer is my perspective from the time. When Gold/Silver were being released the emphasis, at least in my eyes, was on expansion. The 100 new Pokemon were an addition to the existing roster of Pokemon. To me, it was the Johto expansion to the roster that finally made it feel complete. They felt like they belonged with the Kanto mons. By contrast, when Ruby/Sapphire came out and there was overwhelming emphasis on the new Pokemon, to the extent that most of the old ones weren't available at all, it was a complete turn off to me. It was like a reboot, rather than a continuation.
>>
My main problem with gen 2 is how weak almost every single pokemon is. Murkrow and misdreavus could've easily been in the 450-460 bst mark like jynx and mr mime, magcargo has no business having the stats of an early game shitmon while evolving that late, the starters have the same stats as the Kanto ones but rearranged exept for yellow human which has the exact same stats as charizard and no good non-fire special moves at all, sneasel's both stabs are useless since it has a nonexistent special stat, noctowl could have been a fast glass cannon to reflect how owls are apex predators but for some reason it's slow and """"defensive"""", delibird is a joke, it makes absolutely no sense for sunflora to be only a stone evolution if even some mid stages are better than it, i could go on and on... Only ttar, heracross, ampharos, skarmory, blissey, scizor, porygon2, the eevees, the legends, and maaaybe donphan are worth using, the rest is pure trash.
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>>46304709
I mainly mean optional areas. Finding Lapras, Tyrogue, the ruins, Dark Cave, Whirl Islands, there was plenty of different side areas. That said, I can admit part of it is nostalgia. Pokemon Stadium 2 also played a part in the love.
>>
>>46306347
Ah I see, I'm a sucker for this shit too. I do personally think side-areas peaked in Sinnoh though, stuff like the fuego ironworks and the old chateau were amazing
>>
>>46301618
>I don't like this game
>why?
>clearly bait
Why are you like this
>>
Isnt it possible to like something in spite of its flaws? Keep in mind these games came out over 20 years ago. Keep in mind how bugged out and crude gen 1 was, and how polished gen 2 was in comparison, and how much they added to the gameplay. I'm not going to defend any of the flaws listed in this thread, because most are completely valid, but that doesnt make me like these games less on the whole. They had so much going for them positively and in the perspective of the time they were amazing. Just keep some perspective.

That being said they should have fixed all the flaws in the remakes, but they only fixed some. Pokemon distribution was helped by putting most mons that were locked into post game into the safari zone,(Though houndoom is still post game, which sucks.) The trainers and gym leaders in kanto have higher levels, there are gym leader rematches, (though activating them is convoluted and tedious) elite 4 rematches, new routes, more fleshed out kanto (added back seafoam islands and viridian forest, gave Blaine an actual gym, etc).

They didnt fix the level curve in johto, but I dont think its as bad as people make it out to be. Yes you are overlevelled at certain points and slightly underlevelled at others, the latter though I dont see as a problem because being slightly underlevelled adds to the challenge. Being low to mid 30s at Clair is not game breaking . being high 30s to low 40s is not bad for the elite 4. If your team composition sucks or youre using shitmons, then yea you might have to grind a little bit to get through, but that's the case for any pokemon game. You dont have to be at the exact level of every opponent you fight, grinding up to level 50 for the league is stupid and removes all semblance of challenge.

Red however is very overlevelled and that's kind of the point. Youre supposed to get to him on the summit and say holy shit, maybe in not ready for this. Its supposed to be a huge challenge. 1/2
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>>46307484
2/2 once again if your team comp doesnt suck and youre not purposefully using shit mons you shouldnt have to grind much. It is possible, and I have done it several times, to beat red in gsc with Pkmn in the late 40s to early 50s, and in Hgss with Pkmn in the low to mid 60s, which after the gym leader rematches and elite 4 rematches is totally reasonable with a team of six.

I'm not going to pretend that nostalgia is not a factor, as silver was my first game, and like I said I wont try to defend most of the criticisms of the originals especially the ones not fixed in Hgss, (including the johto leaders original teams, which were bad. I could make a whole new double post about them)
But they still remain my favorite games and in my opinion the best. I think a lot of people perceive them as being very popular and shit on them beacause of that. I get the criticisms and most are valid, but there is a certain amount of hatred and unnecessary glee taken in shitting on these. If you dont like them because of their flaws, fine, dont play them, but if youre doing it just to shit on whats popular because you think it makes you cool or different, then fuck off. I'm done ranting.
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>>46301477
They might be the second worst games in the series but they're still my favorite.
The actual gigantic visual leap from gen 1 to gen 2 is amazing It really feels like the time when pokemon was at its peak popularity.
>>
>>46301593
Is there any fan game you would recommend for the peak Johto experience?
>>
Johto is the best. Cope.
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>>46302038
Hate this man all you want but the Feraligatr line had me fucking dying lol
>>
We get it dude, you started playing in gen 5 and completely miss the point of GS
>>
I'm impressed that this thread gave actual criticisms about GSC.

Team Rocket being shell of its former self is a fair point. However, Team Rocket still does stuff (Slowpoke Well, Lake of Rage, Radio Tower Take Over). Besides, Team Rocket, was mainly intended as a side quest. The real story of GSC was just about exploring the world while befriending creatures and defeating powerful trainers along the way (culminating to the point where you literally defat the strongest trainer of all, Red (who is literally your past self if you played the RBY). GSC is about making your own journey than following a specific path. That's why there are so many optional daily/weekly events (Bug Catching Contest, Poke-thalon, Union Lapras, even stuff like the Clefairy Dance which is admittedly pointless outside of a moonstone but it's still cute.) which goes into my next point.

These are not the types of games that were meant to be speed run. Even with the problematic level curve you can still get EXP from rematches, which was even improved somewhat in the remakes because you can challenge gym leaders too. Again, this wasn't a prefect solution and wild Pokémon should have been a higher level.

As for the weak Pokemon, that's hardly an issue in-game because even ignoring the low levels of trainers, the Pokemon Games have always are ridiculously easy to anyone who has played one before.

However, in competitive yes Johto as a whole is embarrassingly weak. However, that's due to Lame Freak's retarded idea of not wanting Johtomons to overshadow anything from Kanto. Compare the starters, both have the same BST's but the KANTOO starters got fancy megas and gigas and insane movepools while Johto starters got nothing for a decade then got culled forever. This is also why Trainers mostly use KAntomons, Lame Freak didn't want Johtomons to overshadow Kantomons even though Kantomons already got an entire generation to themselves. Lame Freak is petty like that.
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>>46307484
>Isnt it possible to like something in spite of its flaws?
Yes but garbage like "hurr the NPC doesn't use the pokemon my autistic headcanon says they should use because I don't know how sequels work" isn't a flaw.
>>
i like the johto games well enough and i'll replay them on occasion, it'd be stupid to call them outright bad games. however, they are put on a pedestal by people on this board like no other games in the series and constantly touted as the absolute best the series has to offer when that's just not the case. i know a massive part of it is nostalgia, but after reading so many threads like these, i honestly think a lack of critical thinking skills comes into play for a lot of diehard johto fans. a lot of problems with gen 2 i can forgive because you know what, sure, they were still getting their footing and didn't really have the concept of a "generation" down yet. doesn't really excuse the distribution of mons or the level curve, but that's besides the point. but for hg/ss, that becomes so much less forgivable because they had a decade of hindsight. they were faithful to a fault and even pulled the fr/lg bullshit of locking off certain evolutions that appeared in later gens for no reason. oh sure, you can still get tangrowth, yanmega and lickylicky, but i feel like that's because they can't physically stop you from just levelling them up to get their evolution moves. but instead of cutting their losses and extending this to all evolutions introduced in later gens, they decided fuck you, you can't get a togekiss, honchkrow or a mismagius until the post game, and you can't get a magnezone AT ALL unless you trade it over to a sinnoh game. you know how emerald had a neat little visual indication on the pokenav where you could see if a trainer was ready for a rematch without having to call them or wait on a phone call? fuck that shit, get rid of that completely. you know how the physical special split gives gengar viable stab moves? i got an idea, let's keep fucking LICK on karen's gengar, making it even less threatening than fucking morty's. at least romhacks fix some of the major problems, hell they even patch the lackluster story.
>>
Gen 2 is only bad in hindsight. It existed before Ruby and Sapphire set the precedence of "generations" that are all self-contained reboots.
The fact that you are too strong without grinding for the majority of the game is its only real objective flaw.
>>
>>46309854
The Pokemon distribution is part wanting the player to keep seeing new things well after the Elite Four, and part Pokemon themselves still being finalized extremely late in development.
>>
>>46301593
>The level curve is absolute trash, partially due to the fact that everything between Morty and Claire can be done in any order.
The level curve is trash because the game is balanced around Kanto being the second half. Ignore what people say about it not being planned or being added at the last minute because GameFreak did enough planning to gimp Johto as a region because of KANTOOOO.
>>
>>46309992
my issue with the difficulty isn't that you're too strong, it's that the enemies are way, way too weak, especially at the beginning. falkner could easily be mistaken for a normal trainer and bugsy is downright embarrassing. i would genuinely rather he have nothing but scyther than pad out his team with two worthless cocoons. i think the reason so many people remember whitney as this giant wall is that she's the first actual resistance the game offers, and even then she's trivial if you happen to have a geodude, or any mon with dig or mud slap which the game gives you for free.
>>46310050
see, i get that, but kanto is basically nothing but a glorified boss rush so leaving wild mons exclusive until that point just feels like a huge waste. if you wanted to do this then either 1: have post-game evolutions that are restricted until kanto, which they did with things like steelix and scizor, or at the very least make them very high level like dragonite or 2: make certain kanto lines exclusive to kanto. now, i've skimmed the wiki so i might have missed a couple, but i can see they did this with a few lines, those being pikachu, clefairy, electabuzz, chansey, mr. mime, kangaskhan and ponyta of all things. other than that, kanto routes are incredibly homogenous. lots of raticates, fearows and grimers with the occasional bellsprout and oddish thrown in. even then, pikachu, clefairy or electabuzz can be obtained in crystal depending on what you get from the mystery egg. point is, there's better ways of doing this than arbitrarily restricting you from getting 3 out of the 4 dark type lines that exist, and the single new ghost type introduced.
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>>46310254
*4 out of 5, forgot about tyranitar.
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>>46301477
sorry but nothing comes close to fighting red at mt. silver with him having a level 81 pikachu. try again dumb zoomie
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>>46310610
damn do women actually live like this
>>
>>46302832
>It's an excuse plot
I'm glad we agree, it's objectively weak
>>
>>46303170
Sequels are supposed to build on top of the predecessing entry, you good, not do the same thing for funsies
>>
>>46309363
>"hurr the NPC doesn't use the pokemon my autistic headcanon says they should use because I don't know how sequels work" isn't a flaw.
Agree to disagree
>>
People who bitch about the level curve are retarded. How can you simultaneously complain about the games making it difficult to raise Pokemon but also complain about getting no experience from other trainers Pokemon? Isnt that usually what happens when youre overlevelled? If youre overlevelled maybe your issue is the game made it too easy to level Pokemon? Im playing Crystal and I just beat Whitney with Togepi and Quilava and theyre at level 25. If they raised the levels of trainer Pokemon any higher Id be level 40 by Morty.

If theres anything you should be disappointed at its the gym leaders in Kanto. Theyre all around the high 40s to mid 50s. When you beat the league youre well over that. But I think everyone realizes Kanto was an afterthought.
>>
>>46304523

In development GS were called Pokemon 2 and magazines regularly referred to them as such.
>>
>>46311933
it was an issue that previously didn't exist and hasn't existed since. in kanto, you can still challenge a lot of gym leaders out of order, but the level curve is still functional. there is an "intended" order, but it's not necessary, and the bosses will have their levels in accordance with when you should be challenging them which is the superior method as opposed to johto, where's there's still technically an "intended" order, but now they're all basically the same level and it feels especially handholdy. of course, rby still had what can be called a level curve issue since there's nothing to do after blaine (or whoever you fought as the 7th gym leader) except for fighting giovanni, kind of like how jasmine immediately follows chuck and her gym doesn't even have trainers in it to pad it out and give you a little more experience. but at the very least, fr/lg fixed their issue with the addition of the sevii islands quest, which doubled as a post-game location for a game that previously had no post-game. hg/ss meanwhile repeat the same mistakes, chuck and jasmine are still back to back fights without anything in between, and jasmine still has zero trainers in her gym for no reason. you can't even tell me it's because there aren't enough steel types in the game because magneton, forretress, scizor and skarmory go unused by even jasmine herself. in kanto, even if you want to skip erika and go straight to koga, you either have to go through cycling road which is stuffed with poison trainers that if you can't beat you'll have no chance against a poison gym, or a very long series of routes to get to fuschia. my comparisons to kanto aren't for the sake of gen 1 dick sucking because there's more than enough of that going around, my point is this was a solved issue from as early as the first generation, and even when the remakes came around nothing was fixed.
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>>46301593
>because it's more bonus content in my eyes.
That's where you are wrong. Kanto is integral part of the experience. This is why some pokemon being Kanto only is not a negative.
>>
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>>46310610
It's way too foreshadowed. I mean you can stop by his mom's house, she has no idea where he is and you have an obligatory post-game super area. The writing was on the wall if you've played other RPGs. Now pic related? That was a proper shock and timed to come right after you were riding high from beating Ghetsis only to realize how much more work you had to do.



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