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Why did MMOs fail, /vm/? Why aren't there virtual world MMOs anymore, where you have a single sandbox server that you can actually live a virtual life in, where you can kill someone and get their stuff, break into their house, steal their stuff, and set it on fire and then get the guards to kill him when he respawns and attacks you?
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>>493358
Heavy use of private instances

Automation of social gameplay (dungeon matchmaking queues, auction houses)

Gameplay still designed like its 1999

Scalability going down, removing the 'massive' aspect as servers can't handle, mostly due to using instances as a crutch.

Essentially put, for the past 14 years MMOs have been using WOTLK as its template because 'market researchers' still just use the "12 million sub peek" to force shitty gameplay into any major MMO projects, for example, New World.
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>>493367
Ashes of Creation will save us.
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The other thread died out eh? Damn. Time to have all the same exact conversations haha.

>>493367
You bring up points, but it is the consumers who encourage these aspects

>Private Instances
Assuming you mean things like sharding? Yeah its a tough situation because like you said in your other point, games are still kind of designed like WoW. Lets talk new world for example. One server in one region is peaking out at ~1,500 most of the time. Now the entire region 20-30k people. Now lets say you have 25k in the same server sharing the same world. How do you handle resources? Spawns? Etc. Classic WoW is a good example. People were lining up to kill bosses. Other times not so much and people would cut in line to kill. Obviously, people don't want to wait in line to play a game. So the next question is how do you handle the situation where 20-30 people are trying to do the same objective? All competing for it. There's some choices. You can do like Guild Wars 2 and make it so that people "share" the objective. All you have to do is tag it and even if you deal 5 damage, you'll get credit. The other situation is always on PvP. But of course this creates issues that we've seen with every always on PvP game. Now I know most people here will be like "Oh well that's because every open world PvP that has been released has sucked". Maybe, but its hard to convince someone to invest million of dollars when every game with a similar premise has failed. This is just one of those situations where there's so many people gaming now a days, especially MMOs, compared to 1995-2005 that it's hard to design a MMO that allows them all to share the same world. That hasn't been figured out yet.

1/?
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>>493465
>>493367

2/?
>Automation of social gameplay
Sadly this has been shown that if you don't include it in your game...players will find a way. I remember when Gw2 released, it didn't have a LFG system. So what did the playerbase do? They created a third party website with a LFG finder on it. ESO has a NPC specific auction house system, so that the entire thing isn't connected. What did the players do? They created a mod that catalogs every listing the mod can gleam and uploads it to a website. So you can see the average price of things very easily. Point is that these QoL features made popular in wotlk have become requirements by communities. And if you don't put it in your game, the playerbase will fill that gap showcasing they want it. I know it sucks and I wish people would talk to one another. But again, just a case of the majority of players don't want it. They like LFG. They like automation. They like consolidation. They prefer discord over just talking to people in game. They prefer reddits, 4chan, and facebook for their conversations. Its another case of developers shooting themselves in the foot and giving an edge to competition if they don't comply.

>Essentially put, for the past 14 years MMOs have been using WOTLK as its template because 'market researchers' still just use the "12 million sub peek" to force shitty gameplay into any major MMO projects, for example, New World.

This is gaming in general now a days. You're right, mind you. Not saying I disagree. But just like the analogy in the shitty new matrix, everything is based around data analytics and market research now. That's why so much media (movies, gaming (mainly AAA gaming)) have been chasing the trends established between 1992 and 2012. Because those were successful. Some MMOs have tried to do something special and just didn't get popular/survive. Which further enforces the wotlk formula.
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>>493465
You make a world big enough to support those players

Classic is both a good and bad example, yeah many players lined up to kill bosses, but thats also because the basic gameplay design wasn't built around having massive player groups in singular areas and that shit stopped being a thing once you got out of your level 10 zones

This is one issue that new MMOs actually should learn from WOW, and thats spawning everyone in the same areas is a dumb idea, WOW at launch was struggling even with 6 starting zones, worse still is one faction was pretty much stuck in barrens for 20 levels only leaving to do a handful of quests in other zones before returning, yet barrens was functionally large enough to support those players

WOW fixed this by giving servers *gasp* queue times, yeah it was a problem because everyone wants to play on megaservers in the first place, which brings up the point again, vanilla WOW was the most stable open world experience for massive player groups (minus EVE, but EVE cheats by being exceptionally simplistic under the hood) and no MMO has been able to innovate and improve scalability, because the focus has been on selling cosmetic shit and not improving scalability.

Again, most of your arguments comes from the fact that again, WOW is the gold standard, and no one has tried to improve the scalability, size, and scope of the original vanilla release, the only exceptions in recent years was New World, before they scrapped that idea to make it another shit tier cash shop game, and Ashes, with their latest reveal of actually having scalability tech where they streamline polygons and textures during big battles so you can have hundreds of players fighting in the same area.
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>>493358
Because they aren't good games. They're Skinner boxes where socially awkward failures can interact with their peers and indulge in the tenuous illusion that they're actually important to other people.
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>>493468
Players stepping in to make LFG systems is really an issue with the internal game design, people were making PUG raid roasters via forums even during classic WOW, but it wasn't as big of an issue back then because there were still things for your character to be doing outside of instances, farming for your mount, grinding materials for crafting, ect, modern MMO put all its end game into hard group instances and the idea of elite zones with valuable drops just doesn't exist in the modern MMO, where a raid group during vanilla would be farming blue dragonkin or demons in winterspring to get their raid members their epic materials, or a Naxx raid group would be farming materials all over the place to get ready for the next raid, in the modern MMO once you hit 'end game' you're hard stuck doing daily content and instanced farms, because there is no sandbox elements what so ever.

You are right though, the playerbase is to blame, but streamlining your game to the point its no longer a game but just a chore, means its just a shit game in the first place, and not a defining factor of what makes a good MMO, which is massive player counts in shared worlds, its when you and your guild rides together, or when the server brawls it out over a city or two, because lets be real, instanced MMOs are pretty much obsolete when shit like Monster Hunter does the co-op boss farming better, with better gameplay that isn't stuck in the 90s
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>>493476
>means its just a shit game in the first place
Yeah but the priority goal isn't to make a good game. It's to make a game that sells. An MMORPG takes a huge upfront investment + large overhead investment. They NEED to make money. And that means getting as many players into your game at once as possible. While I'd love to sit here and say "Ah yes, if developers just listen to us and do what we say then they'll be successful". But that isn't the case. The majority of gamers now a days are idiots. Just look at New World. Shit makes money if it is marketed right and streamlined in a way that it appeals to as many people as possible without being genre defining. FF14 is an example of this. There isn't anything ground breaking about that game in terms of MMORPG design. That hadn't been done before. But thanks to good marketing, weeb, and streamer culture; it saw a jump in sales.

>>493469
>Ashes
Well see when it releases. Don't fall into this trap. We keep doing that. MMO promises a bunch of shit. Shows all this cool stuff in development. Then full release happens and it falls apart. But the point you bring up is a hard one to solve. You have to make a bunch of zones in which a bunch of people can play at whatever tier they're in. Instead of 1-3 starting zones; it will take 10+. Like you said, WoW put in servers with queues to control populations. But say that all the servers in one region were combined in WoW. Every single zone would be flooded for the first 6 months of when classic was released. Then the endgame zones would be absolutely flooded. You'd need to make multiple endgame zones that are designed to be played by between 100 people to 5,000 people. That's hard to do I promise you and takes a ton of development time to develop a map that big. Then it brings up the whole question of "what is truly endgame", "is leveling antiquated", "games before WoW did X". And we get into my other point. Money money money. How to get investors to invest
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>>493358
The reality is that what kills these games is burnout and there's nothing the companies can do about it.
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>>493469
>This is one issue that new MMOs actually should learn from WOW, and thats spawning everyone in the same areas is a dumb idea

New world spawns you on the beach and you make your way to some random settlement. Want to play with your friends? Good luck since they're probably fucking miles away.

Just one of many retarded decisions that killed NW.
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>>493358
Somewhere along the line MMOs became more about the destination than the journey. Raids were unironically a mistake.
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>>493531
Pick the same spawn then, its retarded to make it racial/faction based.
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>>493537
>Pick the same spawn then
you can't
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>>493544
Well yeah its New World, that entire game is a clown show
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death meaning losing your items is the only thing that keeps an MMO honest. possession of 'your' items or property is only allowed by the game if you are able to actually defend yourself. a pure meritocracy in the most raw sense. you can keep your items if you actually learn to play and get good (or have a bigger/better gank squad). fucking retard baby mode post-EQ MMO players don't know shit and never will
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>>493468
yea most players dont know whats good for them and just see the surface benifits, they think oh dungeon matchmaking from a menu is so much more convenient and saves so much time so it must be better but fail to realise that it takes away so much immersion and need to socialize that it makes the game a more boring experience in the long run, and major game companies see what the majority want and make games to please the general audience and tick boxes rather than sticking with a strong game design vision.
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>>493562
They also don't realize that queue based dungeons are dogshit because they have to be built around the lowest common demominator in a random PUG, otherwise you get cataclysm pre-nerf where the dungeons weren't hard, they just couldn't be zerged by retards like in WOTLK, so everyone, especially tanks, who were just running dungeons for badges would group kick newbros who actually needed gear, causing the incentive to get vets to carry newbros to instead treat newbros like shit

Meanwhile I made so many friends with the warriors on my server in classic because we worked together to get savage gladiator chestpieces and HOJs every night
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>>493358
I keep hearing how WoW ruined MMOs so I ask you: how would MMOs turn out if WoW never existed? Would they be more like Ultima?
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>>493571
If WOW didn't come along someone somewhere would have refined the everquest formula

WOW did 2 things right that no modern MMO dev understands, 1 they made their game fun out of the box, and 2, the world was open and seemless without loading screens for continents.

WOW was the perfect mix of casual and hardcore, you didn't need to nolife to level up and solo unlike MMOs that came before it, but you still had to learn your class at a basic level and use your kit properly to do stuff, such as pulling, kiting, aggro, CC, ect, new MMOs are all about mash buttons and coom numbers, FF14 for example is the most non-interactive MMO i've played in a long time where bosses have all the mechanics and players just sit there and turret damage/healing while generating infinite threat by pushing a button, I don't care if your DPS combo requires you to spam 12 hotkeys when my warlock in TBC spammed 1 hotkey to do damage, but also had banish, fear, insta summon felhound interrupt, insta summon succubus charm, ect, and frequently used them in both dungeons, raids, and PVP
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>>493571
What was the #2 popular MMO? Was it FFXI? That might have more influence, but it still wasn't the 900 pound gorilla that WoW was. Hopefully at least the "only one class per character" meme wouldn't have been cemented in.
>>493574
>If WOW didn't come along someone somewhere would have refined the everquest formula
That's the worst part of alternate history, when you realize that probably the shame shit would have happened, just made by someone else, a year or two later.
>FF14 for example is the most non-interactive MMO
pic related, holy casual batman
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>>493358
The only things MMOs ever offered were social interaction and a numbers-go-up skinnerbox.
With the advent of smartphones and social media, you can get the same needs fulfilled by letting some gacha autobattle in the background while you shitpost on Facebook. Unlike a MMO, it doesn't require any effort or being at your PC and you can even slack off at work with those or do it on the train. They're also preferable for developers since they're easier to make, cheaper, less risky and offer massive whaling potential.
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>boomers complaining with children about games they never played while claiming a genre is dead
this is pathetic
>Why aren't there virtual world MMOs anymore, where you have a single sandbox server that you can actually live a virtual life in,
Literally Second Life or any of the new metaverse play-to-earn bullshit out there like Decentraland.
> where you can kill someone and get their stuff, break into their house, steal their stuff, and set it on fire and then get the guards to kill him when he respawns and attacks you?
This isn't good gameplay, it only leads to one person having fun.
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>>493707
Just get good?
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>>493589
>social interaction
Yeah this is a meme at this point. Everyone always says that the social side of MMOs is pretty much gone. Even now you can see it in games. LFG didn't help for sure. But even games like new world this shows.

>Join game
>Watch chat
>For a game with 10s of thousands of players, hardly anyone in chat forming groups for literally anything
>Oh anon, you gotta go to this website and browse for a guild. Then you go to that guilds discord and talk to them inside the discord. Then everyone logs in to play the content, then logs out
>Well fuck what's the point of the MMO side thing. At this point its just playing discord

New world is at that point now. Supposedly like 1500 players active at once in my server. Sitting there watch chat and nobody is doing any sort of group content. Only advertisements I see are for people selling runs (lul fucking why).
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>>493550
Games like that got replaced by stuff like Rust.
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>>493707
>This isn't good gameplay, it only leads to one person having fun.

There is probably lots of people that want to play if they are "Winning". But as the game becomes smaller and smaller, then the people that could win against newbs must now fight the elite and they become the victims. As more of these people quit, the game gets winnowed down to only a few people who are allied who have nobody left to fight.

Its the design that is flawed here. They need to figure out how to make winners out of losers. I am not talking everyone gets a trophy either. I am saying, you need to have people that think they are winning through things like crafting or PVE that don't mind losing a little somewhere else.

The problem with this gameloop is, that crafters and PVE don't really need the PVP'ers at all to enjoy a game. The more options these people have, the less likely they will play the PVP game. So in order for PVP Full Loot to even have a chance, they have to make an absolutely amazing crafting/economy/PVE game to attract these casual victims into their game. This is not happening, so they continue to fail.
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>>493550
>why does nobody want to play a game where you work hard to acquire stuff and then have to work even harder to defend it or else you lose it all????
>>
>>>97624986
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>>494260
>what is Rimworld?
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>>493358
The reals reason is because the modern playerbase are normalfags and zoomers and they turn anything they touch into shit.

Take WoW (it was always bad as a MMORPG, but it's a great example for this) and look how people played it at release and how "people" played Classic.
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We need to get AI to the point where it is indistinguishable from a real player.

Then we can create an open world full loot game - fill it with "sheep" - and let the sociopaths go to work.

The AI would flood game boards full of virtual non-stop QQ - the stuff the PK crowd really gets off on - and even make posts about quitting the game. The developers could even put up fake complaints about losing revenue (the AI didn't quit... no players have... the PK has been matrixed).

The developers would issue 'patches' that don't really fix the problem so the PKs could LOLZ around those thinking they are master exploiters. The game would be so worth the $25 per month sub fee.

Then when the PK is on his death bed in real life the game sends him a telegram announcing his 50K kills were actually all bots and none of the tears were real ... and in fact he's a tool that just got wtfpwned by a developer... oh, and most of your sub fees went to teach multi-cultural sensitivity courses at a community college....so as he fades to black he can know he is a total fail.

Too harsh?
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>>494272
not an mmo
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>>494463
...and then while the sweatys are busy chasing shadows, the rest of us can go play a different game
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>>494485
What's that, sounds like some kids LARPing about a fantasy anime MMO.
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>>494463
We don't even need that, we need monster AI that isn't stuck in the 90s and better dynamic worlds
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AI should be even dumber. Safespotting is the best.
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Runescape is really good though.
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>>494694
Runescape (3) or OSRS?
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Why aren't you playing Albion Online? It's been doing amazing for over four years now. All the classic mmorpg problems aren't present in this game.
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>>494794
both, rs3 is definitely better and only fags are scared by an action bar
>>494839
simply don't believe you
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>>493367
>poorly-written infographic
When will (you) learn that spelling and grammar checkers are free?
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>>494839
>why aren't you playing the retarded child of nu-MMOs and ASSFAGGOTS?
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>>495060
what is ASSFAGGOTS and why do you keep typing it in all caps?
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>>494939
>rs3 is definitely better
I thought they pozzed it with mtx and shit though
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>>495129
RS3 is only playable as an Ironman
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>>495060
You're literally regurgitating opinions from other people on a game you haven't even played. In a world where MMOs are theme park skinnerboxes with time gated grind fests to further you along a gear treadmill, in what fucking way is a sandbox game with player driven economy reminiscent of modern MMO design tropes? If you want to disparage the game, at least hit the mark a bit more accurately with something like "it desperately tries to parrot the MMOs of old and fails."
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>>495132
>sandbox game with player driven economy
For a second I thought you were talking about EVE.
Is Albion like that except not in space?
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>>495133
Its more like Runescape, less like EVE, but yes it is a sandbox style MMO as opposed to the current (overwhelming) trend of theme park stuff. Really if you're into those style of MMO you might as well try it because I doubt it'll last more than a few years like everything else in the genre. Get the going while its good.
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I continue to believe that MMOs primarily failed because of developers, not because of the players. Players have changed, sure, but that isn't the problem because it always happens as society goes on, the problem is that MMOs developers didn't know how to deal with it besides giving players what they want. Anyone who works with consumers or customers should know that most people do not know what they want. People naturally desire that which makes their life easier, even if it makes things more boring and soulless and has a ton of other downsides that easily outweigh the advantages. People generally don't like to think or put effort into things or make compromises or take risks, they just want the reward, all of the reward and all the rewards, and they hate to lose and to lose things. It shouldn't be hard to see how designing for that would make both a bad RPG and a bad multiplayer game.

Good MMOs can exist, but I don't think a good big MMO can. Realm of the Mad God is an example of a genuinely good MMO, but that game never even enters people's minds when they imagine what an MMO is because it looks so different from other MMOs and doesn't have mainstream popularity/attention. It's a game of constant, naturally forming co-operation with other players, where solo playing is very difficult and risky. That's exactly what MMOs should be striving for; players naturally forming groups and playing together.

Holy shit I hate effortposting in 4chan because of this fucking character limit. 1/2
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>>495148 2/2
Instead nearly every single modern MMO is a single player mob/raid grinding simulator where players want to get away from each other because otherwise their XP/resource will be stolen, they have auction houses and automatic raid queues that remove player interaction for the sake of convenience". In RotMG players unconditionally receive full XP from nearby kills no matter who killed it, and anyone who contributed enough to a monster kill is eligible to receive drops from it, there's only advantages to working together. It's such a simple concept that seems like it should be obvious design for an MMO, yet almost every other MMO does the opposite.

There's a whole bunch of other things that MMOs could improve upon, for example removing the retarded quest treadmills that send you from NPC to NPC for days, but the most important problem with MMOs that needs fixing is that they do not want players to naturally play with each other. It's a game design problem, if the player does not want to play with other players then the game has done something wrong. I can't give a very generalized solution though because as soon as you let go of WoW, a whole world of different kinds of games will open up to you, there's so many different kinds of MMOs you could make that are all interesting in their own ways.
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>>495136
Bad part with sandbox mmos is a lot of them use "Sandbox" as a way to not add any premade content
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Also MMOs are pretty successful if you look at player counts and profits, so they didn't really "fail". They just became shit.
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>>495152
They are just not as successful as they were 10 years ago
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>>495128
hello newfriend
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Because they all got buck broken by Destiny 2
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>>495172
imagine people thinking a game with max 16 players per world is an mmo
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>>495165
For some reason it didn't even occur to me that it could be an acronym. Probably because it's long
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>>495136
>it's native on Linux
very based
>it's "free"
Shit, what's the catch?
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bad gamers ruined mmos like they ruined everything else. just read up to see the faggots whining about getting pk'd and then projecting like crazy on to the pvpers. people who are good at mmos don't just suddenly up and quit when they encounter other good pvpers, that's precisely when the fucking game actually gets good. it's the minority of players who want to waste their time nolifing scrubs to death over and over again for no rewards, and faggots like that are some of legit pvpers favorite people to kill (probably good at pvping, actually evil, feel like you're having an affect on the world). listening to shitheels like said faggot anons above is what ruined mmos. just look at the updates that happened to classic. dungeon limits, season of mastery, fucking world buffs deleted, all because bitch ass retards like them complained. FUCK gamers, you all suck.
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>>495276
I'm pretty sure everyone's complaints are related to being PvP'd when they don't want to PvP. Not because of losing in a PvP battle.
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>>495293
same fucking difference. you don't pick and choose when shit happens, that kills the fun.
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>>495303
I don't understand why "good pvp" for you people has to include the ability to PvP people who don't want to PvP at that moment. Unlike a competitive FPS or other multiplayer games, an RPG has a much wider range of things to do and PvP doesn't mix with all of them.
Why must you insist that this is the only way to make the game good?
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>>495304
you fucking retard listen to my words. it's not about being able to kill anyone else at any moment. it's about ME being able to be killed by living thinking people at any moment. here are the components to a fun rpg:
constant danger by way of other faggots running around
possibility to git gud and/or tribalism it up to minimize that danger
open world with shit you need
that's it. i have solved the good mmo formula. you can thank me later retard.
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Do any popular MMOs still use pvp flagging systems?
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>>495238
Its free insofar that you're exposed to a lot of grind and tedium if you don't obtain premium status on a character. You can thankfully do this by trading the in-game currency to other players who have already paid real money, but if you have a job realistically you're just better off paying the 11 dollars a month or whatever to knock off literal hours of tedium.
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>>495306
>it's not about being able to kill anyone else at any moment. it's about ME being able to be killed by living thinking people at any moment
You realize this is a two way street and allows for others (not You, danger-loving anon) to engage in griefing though, right? Unless you'd be okay with an opt-in system, some retards will just abuse it and ruin the game. That's the problem.
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>>495317
that's part of the fun. that's called e m e r g e n t g a m e p l a y. don't like it? figure out how to fuck their shit up. call in the homies. go somewhere else and engage in alternative quest/grind spots which you wouldn't have done otherwise. even the griefers have their role in the ecosystem of an actually good living mmo, whether your stupid punk ass likes it or not.
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>>495315
Ah, I see.
A subscription-for-premium model is actually fine. In my cursory glancing over the website and Steam page I didn't see that mentioned, they market it as "le free 2 play".
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>>495317
Being killed for your items isn't being griefed and its not a huge issue typically. The game has to balance many things when accounting for open world full loot pvp like this though, but that's a laundry list I don't feel like even getting into right now.
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>>495320
i don't even care about full loot. i just know full pvp is extremely important to a ridiculously long list of things, most of them involving controlling something in game.
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>>495323
Its the only dynamic endgame you're going to get in an MMO. Even in sandbox games you end up in a loop where you're just amassing wealth awaiting for future content updates. Before you reach even that point, you will be in a state where you're just amassing wealth to more efficiently mass wealth, whether this be by gaining better gear or leveling up your attributes. In a strictly PvE game you always hit this block where nothing serves a real purpose, and you've played all the content available to death. PvP offers dynamic gameplay by being able to play against real players with a similar goal in mind of killing you. When PvP is poor, the game suffers massively.
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>>495324
hear hear brother
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>>495276
>>495303
>>495306
>fun
>I KNOW WHAT FUN IS, EVERYONE ELSE IS A SCRUB
>t. pic
We can pick and choose what not to pay money for.
Enjoy your sweatbox PvP wonderland until it closes.
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>>495351
thanks for ruining good mmos by being a bitch and also somehow enjoying shitty mmo gameplay for the sake of it you no friends no skill piece of shit.
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>>495149
I was thinking of an MMO that actually makes dialogue a gameplay feature
>hardlines players into making an absolute FUCKLOAD of morally-grey "A or B" choices with mostly-randomized rewards, choices cannot affect the game world universally, but definitely change how the game plays on a fundamental level for each individual player/character
>too many dice-rolls behind the scenes for players to just wiki their way through everything
>NPC dialogue is mostly frankensteined from a massive database of different types of sentences, which then each have a pool of different nouns/verbs/adjectives/goals that can apply, which are slightly narrowed down by an individual NPC's personality. An NPC may ask two players the exact same question, and get the exact same answers, yet react slightly differently to either player
>NPCs' reactions to your choices are influenced HEAVILY by how other NPCs have reacted to the choices your character has made, along with a matrix of small details, like what color your character is mostly wearing in which weather, whether you've spent more time crafting or more time fighting, if you've ever engaged in PvP or not, how often you talk to other players, if you've ever sold someone an item for significantly more money than standard value, etc. along with some plain old RNG for good measure
>in general, the idea is to make each NPC have a clear enough personality to be sort-of predictable, but to make it too much of a time-consuming pain in the ass to metagame your way through the choice/dialogue networks. Players who want to spend their time getting to know each and every NPC to navigate their way through the game "socially" have an alternative option for gameplay and advancement, in addition to the usual crafting and combat grind
>No auction house, personal trading only, many quests and tasks will require you to interact with other players, by getting them to say a certain thing or give you a certain common item, ignoring others not an option
>>
it's the other way around. pkers ruined mmos. they picked on the weak over and over again until there's no more prey and then wonder why there's nobody left. it's not fun to be harassed repeatedly by no life losers that play the game far longer than you. you only enjoy it because you're also a no life loser that'll eventually be among the harassers.

if you truly want to test your mettle, you'd play against people on par or stronger than you via organized pvp, not wasting your time on randoms until you find a person skilled enough that you claim you're searching for.

the fun you're having is just picking on the helpless because you can't handle players on even grounds, you delinquent piece of scum
>>
>>495318

I don't think griefing is the right term for allowing a degree of adversarial play in the game.

Griefing in my vocabulary is full on trying to make other people stop playing the game by intentionally making it so they can't have fun. That's not the same as killing someone and stealing their loot once, it's doing it over and over and over when they clearly have no chance of getting back on their feet. The giant problem with PvP enabled games is that griefing is the only way to actually win a war with someone, because killing them doesn't get rid of them, only making them stop playing the game does.

So there is a direct line between allowing people to mess with each other and people actively trying to shrink the community. That's the main reason why PvP based MMORPGs usually don't last very long.
>>
>>495442
There is never any significant consequence to "PvPer" agency (griefing until people quit), any built in consequences are only ever felt by normal players.

Normal Player (NP) just wants to play the game, engage in fair and balanced PvP at some point, win some, lose some, explore a bit, make some money, make some friends, have some fun, you know, like normal people do in real life.

PvPer (PP) just wants to fuck everyone else's fun up in any way possible. He doesn't care about anything that NP cares about, he only cares about exerting power over the NP. In real life, these people (psychopaths) have to at least pretend that they uphold some societal values, otherwise they end up in jail or killed. If they decide to pretend, they can climb the societal ladder, and it doesn't really matter if they're discovered or not, because 90% of their work is upholding societal values, and 10% is psychopathic insanity, so there is more good than bad done for society. In games this doesn't hold true, because they don't have to care about anything - the PP doesn't care about being banned for exploiting, he will just buy another account, he doesn't have to care about fitting into society, he just plays with other PPs and doesn't have to talk to anyone else, he doesn't care about the server population, his group can just move to another server or another game.

Since it's impossible to kill someone in a MMO unless you make them quit, and it's impossible to make these people quit, the only people who quit MMOs are those with normal personalities who just see that it's not worth putting up with so much shit to play a computer game.
>>
I just wish there were more quest orientated MMO's similar to Runescape.

Does anyone know where to get started with making an MMO? We should just make one ourselves
>>
>>495442
>>495443
i already told you. fuck them up harder than they fuck you up, call in the homies, or go somewhere else. it's not rocket science
>>
>le emergent gameplay
Its always some retard ganking low levels and then runing away when some real opposition appears. RL losers that can't even compete in a MMO.
>>
>>495443
You sound like someone who just got ganked. Did you learn something from it? The game you played probably gave you tons of tools to defend yourself that you decided to ignore.
>>
>>495456
Once a group has locked down major resource production in a sandbox game, that's it for that server, join them or wait until they get bored and quit. Even in themepark games like WoW PvP servers always ended up with completely lopsided factions.

And the entire point is that people do end up going somewhere else after exhausting all other possibilities because that's shitty game design.
>>
The only time I've ever liked open world PVP is when I explicitly go to a PVP server or zone.

MMOs need to be either based on PVP, or have optional PVP that you can opt out of by using a different server or staying in non-PVP areas or something.
>>
>go talk to npc
>go here press E
>go there press E
>talk to npc
>>
>>495676
>find match
>shoot person here
>shoot person there
>find another match
wow such a creative argument
>>
>>495681
That requires skills honed and refined on the battlefield
>>
>>495682
Sounds like a point and click adventure
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>>495725
look at you thinking you're smart because college taught you reductionism
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>>495471
I have played so many different open world PvP MMOs and the scenario you described is so rare its not even funny. When the game is popular, there are way too many players for you to ever feel like you're being targeted over and over. When the game is dead, the community is always eager to bring new players into their guilds so the playerbase stays healthy. You're literally just a vagina that can't handle dying in a game but for some reason still wants to play a multiplayer videogame instead of some single player shit you could load a trainer into.
>>
>>495860
Which magical games have you played, tell me one that's still active and has a community like that and I'll download immediately.
>>
I'll never understand anti-PVP when PVP is the ultimate end game.

Do I agree with full loot FFA gank centric PVP out of the box? Fuck no, but developers can't develop content fast enough to keep it relevant, and dynamic content always gets figured out ASAP to make it non-dynamic where people just farm the best method possible anyway

Players are adaptive and dynamic, and there are many different forms of PVP, such as market PVP, faction PVP, dueling, conquest PVP, ect.

Without it you're just farming the same dragon for months until a new patch lands to farm another dragon with slightly different groundfire, and your items are pointless because you've already beaten the content require to get them in the first place so they have no use except for transmog that will still look worse then cash shop garbage your pure PVE MMOs are catered towards.
>>
>>493358
MMOs went downhill when guides became ubiquitous, destroying any ounce of experimentation or mystery that was once a compelling factor in MMO worlds. Why should you interact with the world as intended when you can pull up an online guide with all the metas, best gold farms, best xp rates, etc? Now everybody rushes the best content, gear, and leaves everything else dead to rot, because somebody else solved the game for them. This completely stripped out the fun and magic that MMOs used to have and it's extremely hard to design around that.
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>>495894
Thats the holy grail of MMOs but no one has done it well.

Also that logic is only a dumb consensus that WOWfags whine about, the real reason why 'guides ruin MMOs' is because every modern MMO that comes out is a WOTLK clone, thus is the most basic bitch gameplay that is a knockoff of a game from the 90s, the genre hasn't evolved at all in this regard, no matter how many guides you make for Monster Hunter or Dark Souls, its still up to players to execute it, with MMOs they still use WOTLK as their gold standard so it always ends up as "rush to end game and do raids" but the raids are always just dodging groundfire while tanks do all the mechanics, if there are even any.
>>
>>495894
Yeah, that's probably the most promising idea to tackle this issue. but it's easier said than done. Procedural worlds come with their own drawbacks, like difficulty in curating content. Even then, patterns can still be found in any system and metas will emerge. Fundamentally though, I think MMOs are suffering from the classic problem of players optimizing the fun out of their game.
>>
>>495901
Its not just players optimizing but also developers streamlining their games to being so basic that you can figure it out over a weekend.

WOW for example used to have a variety of different stats that were good in different scenarios, now you just equip the best DPS

Similarly Runescape had a lot of variety in moneymaking methods back in the day, now you just farm slayer all day long because it makes the most GP/H due to all the buffs OSRS did catering to ironmen players by adding way more noted drops to slayer drop tables.
>>
>>495860
>I have played so many different open world PvP MMOs and the scenario you described is so rare its not even funny
Why are you blatantly lying on the internet, Anon? You know we all played MMOs before, right?
>>
>>495904
WOW is the worst example because they put raiders in charge after the main team left and all they did was streamline the game around raiding and got autistically mad when player mechanics trivalized their 'super hardcore groundfire'
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>>493358
MMOs used to be special when simply playing online with others was a novel experience and connecting hundreds or thousands of people was something special.
These days, they are designed by coporate marketing teams that have no concept of MMOs and think all they need is a strong start.
>>
>>495860
>You're literally just a vagina that can't handle dying in a game
Ironic coming from a guy who refuses to play real PvP games.
>>
Name some pvp sandbox games where stuff happens. All i can think of is Albion or EvE.
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>>495885
What I do is choose not to spoil myself until I've given myself a chance to figure stuff out on my own, and I do the content that looks interesting even if the metafaggotry says it's a waste of time. Sometimes I sacrifice efficiency by the numbers for better aesthetics or roleplaying reasons.
I realize that this means that I won't "catch up" to all the metafaggots with their spreadsheets doing things as efficiently as possible, but there was never any chance of that anyway since the top tryhards will still beat me because they play 8 hours a day and I don't. But I don't care, because for me it's a game and not a second job.
>>
They're doing quite well as persistent servers in Neverwinter Nights.
>>
>>496028
Because those are the two that people play since all other PVP mmos get shitcanned for not being WOW clones by the publishers.

Haven and Hearth is another, but its indie shit run by two eurofags and is only good for the first two months after a world reset.
>>
>>496158
Imagine playing a virtual world that's only good for 2 months.
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>>495149
The problem with your consumer analogy is that in other industries where this is true, they don't make long term money. In MMOs, game developers are rewarded with long lasting MMOs for shit poor game design. There's no incentive to "know better than the playerbase" because they still make a great profit. The other thing to consider is that game developers = players. Most game developers are really into gaming. Most got into development because they were "gamers". Now consider what would happen if you have shitty game design for 12 years. You have an entire generation of developers who "grew up" with this poor game design + game companies being successful with poor design. So now you have a situation where incoming developers don't know any better and those at the top have no incentive to change.

The quality drop in gaming, especially MMOs, is in part both because of players and developers. Equal responsibility imo.
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>>496158
>since all other PVP mmos get shitcanned for not being WOW clones
Because very few games know how to make a good PvP game. Albion Online was shiet for what, the first two years? Then they started introducing more PvE. More protections against PvP initially. So many PvP MMOs just go full loot anywhere PvP from the get go. So of course griefers/shitters go and decide to run around trying to make people quit for lulz. Throw in the gameplay being 75% prep, 25% actual fighting; people get bored fast. It's possible to make a good PvP game. But it takes a lot of testing and cynical viewpoint of players. Sadly it's hard to get publishers, like you said, to buy in.
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>>496177
Yeah full loot out of the box isn't that great, which is what held albion back, its one thing to have a wildy, its another thing to make most of your world past tier 3 wilderness

But having some form of open PVP enviroment that rewards the risk properly is good.

EVE is one of the better systems, though not perfect and extremely abusable via suicide gank, but having highsec be a place where PVP crime is punished with instant death and lowsec being a place where doing crimes still gives you negative hits, though the system is still flawed because being a criminal doesn't restrict you in any way since gate NPCs are worthless and they can still dock anywhere they want when they should be heavily limited.
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>>496180
>because being a criminal doesn't restrict you
I think this is the other major thing. Being a criminal/negative karma player usually doesn't have downsides that actually impact the player in a meaningful way. That in combination of not putting in properly controlled open world pvp usually results in a pvp MMO dying. PvP by default is high stress. Throwing in a situation where you could lose progress on death = players are needed to be in the right mindset to deal with that. Which excludes a large portion of MMO Players. Albions current system of having different types of open world PvP has really done wonders for it. I think EvE just is a super daunting game to look at + a combat/gameplay style that causes new players to be scared to jump into it.
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>>496216
>become notorious due to doing too much PVP
>can no longer interact with NPCs
>can no longer use markets or auction houses or banks or any kind of utilities
>town guards hunt you
>players can hunt you without repercussions
>notoriety only goes down by time, not if you die
>have to live exclusively outside of cities and trade with other people who may or may not betray you
>can hide items in any environment prop like bushes and under rocks, but any player who searches it can take them
>>
>>496228
>switch to alt character that you've been leveling the past two months
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>>496231
>trading between your own accounts is against the rules
>trades and "drop trades" with notorious characters are logged and investigated for suspicious activity, permaban to both if you're found breaking the rules
>>
>>496233
Who said anything about trading? If you're sweaty enough to become "notorious", you can just do it again.
>>
>>496216
This is why if I had a PVP system in an MMO I would have a good vs evil subsystem to it, where good players get access to the best healing and CC, but people who focus heavily on player killing receive reduced healing and are susceptible to a paladin's smite attack, but in turn gets more access to evil themed abilities
>>
>>496254
I don't get it. You could only kill a couple players per character until it becomes notorious just like the previous character, that would be a complete waste of time no matter how autistic you are.
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>why did (genre that still has millions playing daily) fail
>>
You should be able to knock people off their mounts and steal them
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>>496265
Given that the real life penalty for this used to be death by hanging, what do you propose to do to people who do it then? Delete their accounts?
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>>496272
not my problem
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>>496272
Permadeath to criminals who get caught
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>>493367

This anon gives the "suicide" of MMORPGs

The "murder" is: Mobile games, kiddie games for PC like Minecraft, Roblox, and Battle Royales galore.

MMORPGs just like Capeshit games, failed to capture the new generation of players (or readers in comics) nowadays every tranny, and their boyfriend read weebtoons, and play the flavor of the month mobile game, they don't give a shit about ancient games like WOW, and the only retards that still play the genre are 40+ soon-to-divorce husbands

t. Millenial that used to play a fuckton of MMOs
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>>496292
>Capeshit games

Capeshit comics*
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>>496293
are you sure
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>>496292
Just like capeshit, MMOs are stuck in the 90s and refuse to evolve, the novelty of a massive shared world is one people still want to experience its just no one makes that experience anymore.
>>
>>496292
Capeshit is to comics like WOW is to MMOs

There are good comics coming out today, just not cape shit comics, wish the same could be said for MMOs, but there are still good MMOs out there, they're just old as shit or indie jank
>>
>>496399
>MMOs are stuck in the 90s and refuse to evolve
Not that they refuse to. It's just not feasible
>Making a game now a days has gone up easily 30%-50% more in cost.
>Box prices have remained largely the same
>Developers have to rely heavily on promises of MTX and walk this tight rope of MTX pissing off the playerbase or not enough MTX and pissing off the people paying your salary
>Getting your game out there is nearly impossible. You to pay a shit ton in marketing. Pay streamers to shill your shitty game. Buy tons of ad spots all over the place. Pay shills on every platform.

Just look at a game like new world. New world is not designed well from an MMO standpoint. The combat is all it has going for it. Even then though, the rest of the game is designed like shit. Most of the servers will only peak 1,500 players online at once at most, so a lot of the world feels pretty dead. However, thanks to marketing and amazon deep pockets...they sold over a million copies in the first 3 months. New world has sold more copies in the first 3 months than WoW did in the first ~2 years. New world sold more copies in its first few months than I think most modern MMOs. ESO for example cost almost double the amount than the first WoW. FF14 cost about 50% more than it did to make WoW. It's just expensive as hell now a days and no publisher wants to take a chance on that. Especially when there are graveyards full of dead MMOs that tried to be different. But didn't make it because the general playerbase is too scared to leave the comfort of well polished MMOs that have been running for 5+ years.
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>>493358
because they're not an MMO
They keep jumping hoops adding any mechanics, anything, but not things that make MMO an MMO
>>
The major thing that I just wish to experience is the RPG in MMORPG. There's very few MMOs out there right now that offer a decent RPG experience and really pulls you into the world

>WoW
Played the shit out of this over the past 17 years. I don't think I need to go into detail on its recent issues and why I can't get into it these past 2-3 years
>FF14
There really wasn't anything to write home about this. Pretty standard MMO with a FF14 skin. Most notable thing is the developers don't seem like scumbags like certain other MMOs. Closest experience there is to WoW without supporting Blizzard
>ESO
Fun leveling, but mainly a singleplayer feeling game. When you do get to endgame, the combat feels so fucking horrible that you just lose that feeling of umpf
>SWTOR
Same as ESO
>New World
Unique premise, fun combat; shit everything else. Crafting leads to a weird dead end. PvP is severely lacking in content. Endgame design/functions are some of the least fun I've experienced. Headed down a route of "Copy as much as you can from WoW"
>Albion Online/PvP MMOs
I've never felt the RPG side of things. They're MMOs, but to me they're more PvP-MMOs rather than MMORPGs. They don't really pull you into the RPG side of things and it feels more just like a giant persistent pvp arena. Which is ok.
>Runscape or other old school MMOs
These are alright and I've certainly played my share. But their graphics and sometimes dated combat can kill the vibe.
>Gw2
Already played this to the ground. Main thing there is for it now is the PvP. Living World content was ok, but every map just feels like the last map with a fresh coat of paint. It's a hit or miss on the RPG side, especially at endgame.
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>>493576
this still pisses me off, less utility in ffxiv and you can just face smash majority of content with 4 tanks if you wanted or a mishmash of whatever classes, come on come all lets finish this place cause fuck it
>oh look guys red mage is coming soon
>aww shit here comes the utility from the best class that can play all roles
and then they nerf that shit too
>>
>>495870
The classics still have english players. Haven&Hearth, Ultima Online, and Tibia will always have at least one english speaking guild ready to accept new players. EVE Online is another classic that has more newbie corporations than you'll know what to do with, and that game isn't even on life support yet.
>>495907
You have to have social skills -100 to not be able to join the everpresent "newbie" guilds that are in every hardcore MMO. People don't like their favorite games dying. You might have to install Discord and talk to people, no different than people making you join their Ventrilo server in the days of old.
>>495983
I play QuakeWorld very frequently. "Real" PvP games don't offer the same things that an MMO does. Though amusingly you at least drop your shit when you die in Quake.
>>
>>496665
>no different than people making you join their Ventrilo server in the days of old.
No one worth talking to ever did that in "the days of old", grats on being an obnoxious tard I guess.
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>>496683
Every guild worth being a part of 100% required you to be able to communicate outside of official game channels, whether that was IRC, Ventrilo, or Mumble. You're outing yourself as an eternally casual gamer, in which case I would recommend the current flavor of the month gear treadmill. I hear the New World queues aren't so bad anymore champ.
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>>496684
>>Every guild worth being a part of 100% required you to be able to communicate outside of official game channels, whether that was IRC, Ventrilo, or Mumble.
Nope, just retarded losers.
>>
>>496692
You're an eternally casual gamer and a retarded double quoter! I can see why hardcore MMOs would be troubling when you can't even do the bare minimum and be able to communicate out of game.
>>
MMOs shouldn't require communication, they should teach it.
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>>493358
for some inconceivable reason, pic related is your standard MMO player nowadays
A person that plays a multiplayer game, while being afraid of the multiplayer part of it
It's an oxymoron, yet for some fucking reason there's enough of them that devs have decided to cater to them and completely obliterate the community aspect of MMOs for quick cash
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>>493358
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>>496705
A team effort shouldn't require communication?
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>>496713
Are you illiterate?
>>
>>496713
When you log in, do you honestly say to yourself, "I'm in a team."?
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>>496723
When I work together with my guildmates to kill people I consider us to be acting as a team, yes.
>>
The Metaverse fixes this
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>>496727
will the metaverse be real enough for you?
>>
mmos are obsolete jack-of-all-trades when in today's world, people want the best of everything. want to be social? there's discord with all the bells and whistles instead whatever is in-game. need advice? why waste time asking others when it's quicker to just google it. want actual good gameplay? there's zillions of other games with a specific focus
>>
>>493358
No innovation in 20 years, just copying EQ/WOW

Worse still is that they keep dumbing down the genre thinking core elements like shared open single shards are pointless so they instance the fuck out of them and make really tiny worlds with more fucking loading screens then fucking 1999 everquest.
>>
>>495355
>you no like thing I like
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>>496265
This, but you should also be able to command your mount to buck a stranger off and then trample them to death.
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>>496822
My interrupt cancels out your buck and now it's mine
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>>496883
My mount is loyal because the of his bond stat which was raised by sexual contact grinding. He flips on his back then rapes you with his steel augmented cock equipped with epic cock piercing. I cast eyes of the beast.
>>
>>493367
Your image needs to be edited. XIV isn't a MMO, its a visual novel.
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>>496924
Thats the point, FFXIV being the new 'big MMO' isn't helping the fact the genre is stagnant
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>>493358
>data mining
>everybody copies best build
>everybody rolls FOTM
>gearscore/itemlevel
>leveling on rails to end content the grind
>3 stats:damage/speed/life
>etc

we will never go back bros
>>
My dream MMO would be a sandbox game like Wurm/Mount and Blade with EVE elements all rolled together

RIP sandbox MMOs though, all we get is themepark trash.
>>
>>497032
Why aren't you playing Archeage then?
>>
>>497041
I played it like 8 years ago, is it still pay2win korea-shit?
>>
>>497025

Datamining is the absolute worst. I remember back when there was very little public sharing of information. If you found out something that gave you an advantage you told nobody, or only very close friends. When it eventually leaked out to the wider world people would call bullshit or not believe the info.

There were rumours, conjecture, and misinformation and people couldn't verify shit. Someone would swear blind that if you used a "chance" item in a shop doorway between 9:00am and 9:15am it would absolutely work every time, and when it didn't work it's because you were in the wrong timezone.

These days? Some guy on Youtube leaks the content from the new patch a month before it's out. You run your instanced personal loot through a simulator to confirm it's a 0.3 dps upgrade. You wear it majestically, and waddle into town to show off your 2H sword to all the other warriors with the same 2H sword. Some players look on with envy, because they know it's going to be literal HOURS before they have also have that same sword...
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>>497076
>Datamining is the absolute worst. I remember back when there was very little public sharing of information.
Yeah this has been brought up many times when talking about video games, especially MMOs, now vs early 2000s. And the rebuttals are correct. There were avenues of information back in the day. There were wikis, forums, guides, etc. But it just wasn't as accessible nor widely recognized as it is today. Like you said, just looking at the ton of misinformation and false guides/strategies there were. I mean Classic WoW is a great example of this. You look at some guides/strategies now and see the people talking on WoWhead back in 2005, its clear that nobody really knew what was going on lol. People today are more metaidiots too. So many times you join a group and it's "YOU'RE NOT RUNNING META? KICK". Communities force compliance now a days.
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>>497025
Most of that is an issue with streamlining for competitive nonsense, everything has been boiled down to gearscore numbers go up formula that its boring because there aren't stats that counter other stats, like armor pen, evasion, ect, just pure "I do more"

Remember defensive stats like magical resistances? Remember how you could shit on a caster character just by having the right resistances before you fought them? Too bad WOW removed that shit because it made mages in 2v2 arenas really sad :(((((
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>>497050
Are you opposed to P2W in games? EVE Online is P2W too, and you mentioned that as a good game so I figured you had no problem with it.
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>>497076
I think it is possible to start an anti-datamining movement. Not to stop datamining, but to create a popular understanding that abstaining from looking up wikis/guides is a good thing and makes videogames better. It won't fix the problem, but it would alleviate it.

You'll probably need some videogame to start it, to suggest the idea that the game is best experienced if you don't look up information about it and give some short manifesto about it. It could even be an MMO, imagine having a server selection and one of them is an "immersion" server that's intended for players who don't look up any information from outside of the game or the players within. Obviously not all players will follow the rule, but I think a lot of people would. Someone just has to start it.
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>>497076
Archeage fixes that by locking endgame gear behind world bosses that only the top guild on the server can kill.
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>>497091
EVE Online being pay 2 win is retarded because rich nerds buying blinged pirate ships and dying to a thrasher or gate camp is top kek
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>>497097
So no game is P2W then because you can always somehow defeat the P2W guy by having 300IQ, gotcha.
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>>497115
In EVE 'winning' can be seen in different ways by different people

If you're some pve cuck who think that having the biggest best ship in the game and spinning it around in a hangar all day is 'winning' then more power to you I guess

That same guy dying on the undock with his officer fit golem by a bunch of suicide gankers is going to make a lot more winners though

And generally if you're good at EVE ISK isn't an issue since you make all the "pay 2 win" players pay you rent
>>
>>497121
This is different from say, WOW for example where you can buy gold with the token and then in turn buy carries which gives you all your mounts and achievements, which are the only thing worth a fuck in the game, and there is no way of losing said achievements
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>>497121
>In EVE 'winning' can be seen in different ways by different people
Yeah just like in every other game or real life. So P2W doesn't exist since you can't buy whatever cope losers invent to think they're winning at their own game in their heads.
>>
play Fashion Star Online 2
>>
So one of the things I've seen brought up quite a lot is the topic of prestiege and how players present it. One of the issues with the latest generation of MMOs is that they have things like mounts, armor skins, etc. These were often viewed as representations of prestige of players. However, now that microtransactions released and they're often much better looking than in game stuff. So prestige has been regulated to mainly just titles. Do you agree with this?
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>>495471
Yip.
The only people that do open world PVP are those that suck at the game, and at life. They can't fight properly in an arena and they dislike skill-based matchmaking, because they won't get any kills like the no-iq retards they are.
PVP is a cancer.
MMOs and videogames in general are a cancer. The only thing worth anything in this life, is the hope that the world ends soon.
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>>493358
TLDR version.

1. Internet and gaming changed and we as players changed.

2. Developers and publishers saw the potential market and starter designing and marketing MMORPGs to normies who didn't actually want to play them but because they're retarded sheep they do what the overlords tell them to do.
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>>497228
You can pay to get carried for any hardmode content and get your rare drops and epic titles
>>
Players don't want the experience of existing in another world, they want instant gratification.
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>>497272
Loser detected, PvPers are almost always Chads from rich families who already win at life and have confidence and skill to excel in any area.
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>>497272
If you want 'skill based matchmaking' why the fuck are you playing an MMO?

Its like booting up a fighting game and expecting turnbased strategy
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why arent you playing anon
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>>494476
>what is Eve Online?
>>
https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/495955/mmo-devs-repeating-history-it-isnt-idiocy-ignorance-or-insanity-so-what-is-it/p1
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>>499107
That's why you do what Runescape did, limit PVP into special ranger zones and then put a bunch of shit in there that players may want.

If you want something in that zone, you better prepare yourself for PVP. If you don't want to deal with gankers, you just don't go there. If you want to PVP other people, you roam the PVP zones specifically. It's the best of all worlds.

But no, it's as if the entire industry collectively decided to never so much as look in the direction of Runescape.
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>ranger zones
danger zones.
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>>499137
>then put a bunch of shit in there that players may want.
Is it best in slot gear? Because if it is, then the game is shit.
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>>499141
>best in slot gear
You already failed at making a good MMO before you even started thinking about PVP.
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>>497272
>PVP is a cancer.
PvP is pretty fun, what is cancer is the unrestricted open world PvP, which always end in retards ganking new players and the game dying (WoW was a weird exception, mostly due the sheer amount of normalfags playing it the proportion of gankers were less noticeable).

Now in games that do it right, like WAR, PvP was fucking awesome, both the "mindless zerg" part and the more competitive BG one.

>b-but EVE/DAoC/L2
Niche games played by some thousands over the world and still carebears outnumber the gankers.
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>>499214
>EVE
yes, reminder that it has both lowsec and highsec, in other words it's not "unrestricted open world PvP", but pvpfags still try to use it to justify unrestricted PvP
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>>499221
Well, I not an EVE fan, that deal with the time dilation killed all the interest I could have in the game (big space battles), but can't you attack other players in highsec even if its suicidal?

Anyways, my point is that these games always have been really niche, and the PvP players are a minority there, so they're just a minority in a minority. Very vocal tho, and somehow the retarded MMORPG publishers keep listening to them.
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>>499227
>Retarded MMORPG publishers keep listening to them
>15 years of WOW Clones
>catering to PVP players

Not sure if retarded or?

The only sandbox PVP mmo that has come out in the past decade was Albion Online, every other MMO with "PVP" is usually an afterthought only tacked on because WOTLK had Battlegrounds and Arenas.
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>>499107
>In gangster world only certain people get to design things and it isn't you. You can all scoff but it does account for all the disconnects, all of us who actually played all the games, see regularly.
What if it's really this? Since only psychopaths get to high positions in the first place, they have a fundamental mental disconnect with normal people?
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>>499257
Because of this thread I gave Albion an honest college try and was already topping up my premium status after the 3d trial expired. Very fun game.
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>>499257
>>15 years of WOW Clones
Who have open world PvP. And you can add 15 years of gook games with open world PvP, and somehow you forgot about Amazon's super-expensive MMO.

>Not sure if retarded or?
Luckily, I'm don't have any doubt about you, the retard who doesn't play MMOs but still demand "le PvP sandbox".
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>>499264
>This game has PVP servers so its clearly PVP focused!!!

Also calling New world a PVP sandbox only proves how little you don't know

Don't you have some WQs and Choreghasts to run?
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>>499346
I never said "PVP focused" I said, "open world PvP", learn to read, retard.

>Also calling New world a PVP sandbox only proves how little you don't know
I never called New World a PvP sandbox, learn to read, retard.

>Don't you have some WQs and Choreghasts to run?
Obviously not, retard.

Do you have another strawman?
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>>499351
Just because it has PVP optional servers doesn't mean its a PVP MMO :)
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>>495443
haha he said peepee
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>>493521
They can stop constructing everything around CHORES.
Having daily quests and weekly farm caps is nothing but a constructed chore system. Even raid lockouts turn playing the game into an obligation.

Freeform gameplay where there are many different things to do is what keeps people playing. Where PvP and PvE are part of the same ecosystem and not retarded stovepipes. Something that ate WoW from the inside out was the increasing stovepiping of the game's systems, because there was so much hyperbolic whining about gear spillage between them. It ascended into this schizophrenic loop where they came up with increasingly bizarre systems of stat abstraction on characters.
I believe Ashes of Creation might actually get around this with the pacing of activities centered around settlement capture and defense breaking up the week, and HOPEFULLY the game systems are all complimentary. I'm going to email Steven a theoretic outline and I hope it strikes a cord.
If Star Citizen EVER comes out it will almost definitely get around all these problems and be truly groundbreaking. It should be like (Starsector + Sea of Thieves)^3
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>>497095
What do you have to do, pay $1 for every hitpoint the boss has?
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>>493358
I just play Dota.
>can farm for items
>all RPG classes
>competitive
>team based

scratches all the itches for me.
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>>493358
Good MMOs still exist, they just don't call themselves MMOs because the label has a negative connotation and immense amounts of baggage that go with it.

Modern MMOs are thriving and have tens of millions of players. Fortnite. Minecraft. Roblox. These are some of the MMOs without labels, the platforms that surpassed the genre that created them and defined their own.
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>>497228
Yes. Today there is an absolute flood of meaningless titles and over-the-top cosmetics (that you can just buy for $30 or whatever). Not only are there participation trophies, but everyone has at least 50 participation trophies.

In Classic WoW you literally could not have a title unless you did PvP. And there was the ability to have a title (and obvious items) that let everyone know you were in the top 0.1%
The literal visibility of a title (and mount, item, etc) is important. As well as its contrast in sound/appearance to others.
Most players should in fact not have a title, or perhaps they have one but they don't wear it because it's not big dick enough.
What they could try doing is retiring titles as they are no longer relevant. And completely eliminate trivial titles. Besides, most people only care about some high end accomplishment for a little while after it is relevant. Basically no one cares if you did server first X two expansions ago. People can still link their achievements in chat if they need to flex what they did in years past.

Ashes will get this 50% wrong. Steven has a hardcore mount fetish and the game is already FLOODED with funny creatures. The AWESOME thing is that flying mounts will be limited to a few players at a time per server.
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>>499712
How is that awesome? You're not going to be one of them, and they will be the most obnoxious faggots on the server, just like in Archeage that Steve-O copied the system from.
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>>499716
True, most of these players will simply be douchebag guild leaders, who are often not actually very elite players but are good at getting others to support them. However, there will be exceptions, and if they are obtainable through PvP merit (which is to say not simply participating in giant zergs like the Emperors of Cyrodiil) I may have my chance.
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>>499743
What do you mean by PvP merit? Have you ever played Archeage?
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>>499754
Played Archage shortly after release. It was clear very quickly that it was going to become a shitshow and I jumped ship. Didn't even finish leveling, but it clearly had a ton of potential because of the skill system.

I would say Phase 1 and 2 of Classic with open world PvP was merit based because every single one of the top placing players ended up being among the best PvPers on the server and when battlegrounds came out our premades crushed it. A lot of people think all phases were only about who no-lifed more. But that isn't exactly true especially early. You could play 8 hours in the afternoon + weekends and be at the top with enough efficiency. Definitely, when it became more structured and battlegrounds were the best HPH you had to put in a ton more time (and also win consistently). AV was the worst of it, because it was the MOST a function of time.
>Open World - most a function of individual skill
>BG Premades - most a function of group skill, then time spent
>AV - most a function of time spent, very little individual or group skill

Obviously, when Arenas became the top tier PvP content, it is a very strong function of individual and group skill, and very little of time. But, they're myopic, extremely meta-driven, and not good for long term fun. They are also completely stovepiped and feel bolted on to the rest of the game. Such is the price of making sure "it's raelly skill that gets you there" except you can just buy a carry to very high ratings.
You could never buy your way to the top in open world PvP because HK's get split and grouping is inferior to soloing.

There's a long answer to a short question.
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>>499787
Ok, that's just sport PvP so completely different from open/sandbox PvP like Archeage/Ashes of Creation where people compete over resources and bosses and loot.
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>>499791
I think that would be fucking awesome. There was a small amount of resource competition in WoW that drove PvP but it would have been nice to have more. World bosses definitely drove mass PvP and it was possible to make huge piles of honor by going in solo, for mages at least kek

I hope Ashes is built around scarcity like that.
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>>499804
Why do you think having a server farmed by people who aren't you and who gatekeep every single event, boss and resource spot, would be awesome?

Remember, the game is made so that only one group can win the server, you can't "sneak in" a victory, when they start snowballing with boss items the server might as well be reset, and in order to "win" they will have to make as many other people as possible quit the game.

This is fine for a league game or a FPS, but for a persistent virtual world...?
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>>495148
>rotmg
>genuinely good MMO
>constant, naturally forming co-operation
I hope crashers trigger every counter on your discord o3 run.
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>>499787
>"you only need to play 8 hours/day + all your weekend"
>this isn't about who no-life more
Do WoWfags really...
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>>493358
Ill be honest with you
all i want from mmos is for them to be diablo 3 ind a 3d space with random dungeons and loot
and 10-32 people multiplayer akin to old steam games. I dont care about housing, transmog, socializing or whatever. I just want to log in and mindlessly grind away.
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>tons of servers with tiny player caps
>pvp often optional or a mere afterthought
>player driven economy but items never leave circulation
>rare drops and legendary items
>timed events and dailies
>content bloat, gacha and casino games
>tab-target combat that requires advanced algebra to follow
>skills with lots of %%%
>grafix over playability. Only 1% own a rig strong enough to support more than 50 players on screen at once.
>closed instanced content
>party-finder-fast-travel gameplay loop
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>>499890
I know what you mean. I think this can be gotten around by dividing objectives across the map to the point no guild or faction can hope to conquer them all.

Faction size MUST be limited so that active players remain somewhat at parity within a fairly narrow margin. I would never go higher than 45:55.
When allegiance choices are unrestricted you inevitably end up with one side completely driving the other off the server. The time it takes to degenerate is a function of how uneven it was to start. It's like a ball starting its roll somewhere on a hill. You can see this in the WoW data between Classic and TBC.

So, devs MUST be willing to enforce population controls from the getgo. If the game is truly worth playing it won't keep people away.
>BUT I WANT TO "PLAY WITH MY FRIENDS"
Okay, you'll probably get a login queue. Or maybe there will be a character creation queue, depending on the system.
You might not like this solution, but it's what peak performance looks like. It is far superior to letting servers degenerate into monofaction.

As far as one group "winning the server" look at war games like Planetside and Foxhole. People prefer having different command structures and their own level of control. They will never coalesce into a single monoguild. And if they did, it's just a faction, they are opposed by the other faction.

Population balance controls combined with logistical overhead requirements make it physically impossible for one group to become dominant enough to sterilize a server with their dominance.
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>>500284
You'll never be able to control or balance factions in these games, the best thing you can do is do what EVE does with its faction warfare where each faction has unique rewards that only people who farm that faction get, but can freely trade them, so people who want to fly Hookbills either need to join Caldari faction warfare, or buy from the market, which gives the people who are farming caldari faction LP income, and if no one is say, farming Minmatar LP, then the scarcity of Firetails goes up, thus the profits, of course this only works in EVE because EVE is a consumption based economy where ships blow up when they die and you have to replace them, but im sure you could do the same if faction monopolized crafting resources were required to keep certain items repaired or are used in the production of consumables like potions or flasks or required for guild vs guild siege equipment
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>>500284
>Faction size MUST be limited so that active players remain somewhat at parity within a fairly narrow margin. I would never go higher than 45:55.
This doesn't work if you're allowed to attack your own faction like Archeage. Or if it's a clan-based game with no set factions like EVE.
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>>495390
Meanwhile old RPGs just have you say certain keywords, but in the world of wikis you'd just look them up and metagame like a fag. You want to prevent metagaming entirely, but that level of randomness would make a confusing word salad more than it would cohesive dialogue. There have been experiments with language models like GPT-3, which stores information a character knows about itself, about the world around it, etc. It's very interesting having a computer generate cohesive and relevant conversations with you, but with enough poking/prodding you can break it. Sometimes you can break it entirely on accident.

Here's info on it:
https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.14165

TL;DR: The technology to make what you want exists, but it's primitive and proprietary for the most part.
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>>495894
We call those minecraft servers lmao
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>>493550
You people always romanticize shit like this but there’s a reason why real world society evolved past chaotic violent cultures. It’s because it gets exhausting and unfun being forced to babysit your property at every waking moment
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>>501038
You can have both, top tier PVP gear with PVP stats and abilities should be locked behind resources you only get in PVP zones.

If those resources are dropped on death and required to upkeep your elite PVP gear its a good PVP system

Full loot is retarded, but so is ladder/retard grind systems ala WOW battleground/arena which has plagued MMO PVP design for over a decade now, even in WOW PVP was at its best when people ganked and escalated over mat farming spots like Throne of the Elements or the Fire Revenants in Wintergrasp
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>>501296
>play PvP MMORPG
>you need to do chores to "start" playing PvP
>every time you die you need to do chores to keep playing
>play a real PvP game
>every time you die you respawn and have fun
Give me a good reason to play your retarded MMO over a real PvP game.
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>>501320
I can't because you don't want to play a PVP MMO in the first place, stick to fortnite :)
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>>501332
>I can't
Don't worry. I accept your concession.
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>>501336
Your welcome fortniteking2006
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>>501038
Then don't play a big boy game tardbaby.
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>>501296
So essentially only one group of people ever gets the PvP gear and they prevent everyone else from doing it by zerging anyone who even approaches the PvP zone to get it (they can't engage in fair fights because there's a chance to lose it).
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>>501425
Only if the developers are retarded enough to make a handful of PVP zones
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>>501450
And what exactly would this PvP gear drop from? I thought you were talking about bosses or something.
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>>493358
Games like Rust are the natural progression of the MMORPG genre.

Player housing almost anywhere. Tension when you meet a stranger. Roleplaying only limited by imagination. Loot is useful and exciting. Low levels can PvP high level players and outskill them. You can gank whoever you feel like and make enemies or alternatively make friends and protect others. Barter economy with player run shops. Entirely new contentients to play on every week/fortnight/month. Such a huge playerbase that most countries have local communities and servers. Player-driven factions where wars and alliances are declared by humans. You can kill someone and get their stuff, break into their house, steal their stuff and raze it down to the ground.
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>>501459
Aren't those games pointless to play because the only thing that anyone ever builds are mud cubes because everything nice looking gets destroyed immediately?
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>>501471
People wait until 4 am and blow up your base the instant you log off to go to sleep
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>>495276
>dungeon limits, season of mastery, fucking world buffs deleted
how is making a game hard a bad thing? especially one as easy as classic wow.
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>>493358
sweaty incel pvpers ruined mmos. contrary to what zoomers believe most people played on pve servers, and pkers were always a minority. koreans then ruined mmos by catering to the pvpers.
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>>498265
a game that actually has good pvp. name a single fantasy mmo that doesn't have complete dogshit griefer heaven pvp where skill doesn't matter
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>>501459
most "people" are only capable of building absolute hovels that are worse than Brazilian favelas
They have no aesthetic or architectural sense. Even premade housing ends up decorated like absolute garbage. Player housing is SHIT.
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>>501566
Anything with extreme stat scaling is going to have this experience.
I would love to play a game where there isn't much of an absolute difference between top tier characters and fresh ones. The principle that a peasant with a sword could still kill a hero given the opportunity.

Actually, I have played one, but it's not exactly an MMO. Escape From Tarkov does this. High end equipment lets you be a powerhouse, but you can still die to someone running 1/50th as much if you are careless, unlucky, or overwhelmed.
Most of the true progression is felt through honing your personal skills. But perhaps this would turn away a lot of the typical MMO crowd. Some people probably think they are actually "progressing" when numbers inflate even though mechanics and their relative effectiveness haven't changed.
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>>501591
In your opinion, why is it hard to do that in a fantasy setting?
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>>501604
It shouldn't be. I think fantasy game devs just don't care about realism at all and they completely lose perspective. They become more interested in forcing players to move from zone to zone than creating a believable world.

It makes sense that magical items and abilities would lead to bigger power gaps where the most exotic and skilled people are way above peasants. But there's no inherent reason it has to be as extreme as we see in all these games.

Star Citizen (inshallah) should be satisfying in this regard. I expect players to be able to get higher spec components. In the most extreme cases I think it would be the kind of power gaps you see in cars. Otherwise, increasing power will be by getting bigger ships and more players to help.
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>>493589
>The only things MMOs ever offered were social interaction and a numbers-go-up skinnerbox.
I think this is selling the genre short, and this common view is part of what made the decline so dramatic in the first place. Personal opinion, of course. As the RP part of MMORPGs declined, so too did everything around it.

The social interaction of an MMO wasn't just about having other people around, it was about experiencing a whole other RPG world where the other people add to the immersion, because they're also adventurers in an RPG. It's supposed to be a genre where you have the exploration and danger of an RPG, but where in single player you'd have a party of four you control yourself there, now you'd have a group of real living people. And not just people going to kill monsters, but to gather, craft, explore, or kill each other sometimes.

This concept definitely evolved into survival games, but those games are lacking in both scope and reasons to play nice with others. They're usually limited to only so many players max on a server, or small, non-complex maps. NPC factions are supposed to simulate the consequences of being a sociopath without needing players to exclusively do it, so there's a trade off that makes the PVP more engaging and less ever present.
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>>501570
That's what you get when a game is populated by PvPers.
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>>496430
This, people have a nasty problem of always lumping everything that's bad together and not understanding the issues itself. Biggest problem with MMOs is that you need to dedicate a shit ton of time into it. Devs forget the fact that kids grow into adults and have real jobs so they'll never have the time to play MMOs. With gacha bs it's simple and they can play it wherever on their phone especially at work. I was about to bring up that majority of MMOs are Fantasy themed then I remembered Firefall so I don't think we won't get any non Fantasy MMOs anytime soon.
>>
Think about this realistically.

Let's say hypothetically, a new MMO just came out and it's a 10/10.

Great combat, great pvp, great life skills/crafting, attractive art style, decent sub price or no sub price. Even with all those factors, would you try to make that your new MMO? Or would you rather stick to what you have been doing for years, because you've put so much effort into what you have, that a fresh start somewhere else is not that appealing. Yeah, you might go and check it out, enjoy it, but you're not going to switch to it. That but on a scale of 1000s of people who are too stubborn to switch.

And even if people did switch, with every new MMO, the herd of active players thins across more and more games, lowering the active player base even further, giving companies less incentive to pump more money into their cash cows.

MMOs are built on a premise of "sunken cost fallacy", which isn't always a bad thing. You want to feel rewarded for your time spent, and a good MMO makes you feel like it was time well spent. The issue comes from a good game turning into one that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
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>>501688
>Even with all those factors, would you try to make that your new MMO
Yes because I've been looking for a good game for 15 years?
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>>501688
>Great combat, great pvp, great life skills/crafting, attractive art style
You did not describe the MMO that I want to see. I don't want surface level "improvements" to what we already have, I want someone to bring entirely new game design to the genre.
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>>501688
Real Life
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>>501591
>Actually, I have played one, but it's not exactly an MMO
Nor a RPG. Have you guys ever thought that, maybe, you just don't like MMORPG? Why do you normies keep trying to change a genre/hobby that you don't even like?
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>>501619
>I think fantasy game devs just don't care about realism
Probably because they're developing a fantasy game, you dingus.
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>>501679
>>501570
Yes, how exactly is someone supposed to build anything impressive if just gets knocked down by a griefer the moment he logs off?
>>501688
>the herd of active players thins across more and more games
This is an argument for why Steam partly caused the decline of MMOs. Having hundreds of games that you can choose any of them at any time makes it hard to focus on one for more than a few weeks. This is only made worse by MMOs that have no way to log on other than through Steam. Now the "sunken cost fallacy" applies to your library, not to your time spent in a single persistent world.
It's going to get even worse with zoomers, most of whom were raised on a diet of random crappy cell phone games because it was an easy way for lazy parents to shut them up.
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>>501823
So then why don't they just let everyone noclip through the entire game and carry weapons 500x larger than themselves? It's fantasy so it doesn't matter
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>>501923
Why allow players to continue playing the game after they die for the first time? It's unrealistic.
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>>501927
Why even have anything scaled to size properly, it's too realistic
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>>501923
Because, unlike (you), most devs don't go full retard.
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>>501823
I'm going to go out on a limb here anon and assume he meant realism in context or verisimilitude
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>>502031
Realism doesn't matter in a fantasy game.
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>>502031
>most devs don't go full retard
going full retard is a reoccurring theme for mmos
>>
Grinding. Grinding is the one thing that kills every MMO, each patch has a rise in players, then a subsequent fall in the amount of players due to this.
No one wants to keep grinding new gear every year, again and again.
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>>502067
I didn't read the reply chain and i don't know what you were talking about, but who ever said "realism" is retarded. Not because it's completely wrong, but even fantasy worlds have to be believable.
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>>502221
There are plenty of MMORPGs that don't copy WoW. However most players get into MMORPGs expecting exactly what you described. What else are they supposed to do?
>>
What should MMOs have to occupy player's time besides grinding?

>building houses and shops
>exploring procedurally generated dungeons
>fighting in PVP faction wars
What else?
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>>501688
You can't have great PvE and great PvP in one game without separating the two. A PvE player should not get a PvP advantage for grinding PvE content. The problem is devs want both audiences in their game and then you get those two-in-one MMOs like GW2.
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>>502292
If you cut down most of the convenience like dungeon finders and AH systems you don't really need to consider "what occupies players time"since a lot of it will go to looking for groups and finding people to trade with.
I'm a pvpfag and i think that the pinnacle of any mmorpg should be the pvp.
The way i see it is that you have played the game so much, you have the best of the bestest gear and you have mastered your character and you are now going to compete with other people on who is the best. So if there are proper pvp systems in place, the game will always have something to do.
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>>502306
>and you are now going to compete with other people on who is the best.
You mean now you're going to band together with other "best" people and "pwn the plebz"
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>>502292
>arguing on the forums
>browsing the wiki
>watching guide videos
>simping on twitch
>standing up for trans rights
>whining about difficulty
>enforcing bad design
>migrating to a new game
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>>502309
Well, yes, but instead you join with the "greatest" and "own the noobs"..
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>>502309
Among the first graduation classes of Rank 14's there was no conspiracy to go start griefing, they did a lot of different things
>quit the game
>only raid (cringe)
>continue to PvP (based)
>gank the worldbuffs off people in cities
>start new characters
In no particular order. I don't know where PvPers get this reputation of all being conniving sociopaths out to ruin everyone's day. Most of them are just the sporting type.
At no point, actually, did elite groups of PvPers decide to go out griefing. It was only ever guilds that did this. Shitter zerg guilds, who would only have an advantage by numbers and organization. Few among their number actually being skilled.

So this archetype of "the PvP griefer" might be a projection. From the downtrodden dumpster boy who could never win a fair fight and died 100 times leveling up. They are always on the receiving end, effectively being bullied. They wish they could get their revenge and go on a killing spree. Thus, they never see the joys of painting. For them it is all darkness and misery. Very very few people actually behave like Swolebenji and grief noobs in Redridge.
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>>502309
It's incredibly rare in any decent PvP centric MMO for players to just go out and grief noobs because the opportunity cost is typically very high for no real benefit. Noobs don't have loots, noobs aren't honorable kills, whatever system your game is using, then you paint a target on your back in an area that might be harder to escape from at the same time. If the game's core design handsomely rewards high level players for farming noobs who can't fight back, its a problem outside of just being able to kill other player characters.
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>>502361
>in any decent PvP centric MMO
Name some.
>>502323
>I don't know where PvPers get this reputation of all being conniving sociopaths out to ruin everyone's day.
Any sandbox PvP game, Archeage, EVE, Ultima...
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>>502377
EVE Online, Albion Online, RuneScape, really any game with full loot style PvP as well. If you go out in any sort of risk just trying to kill noobs to gain 0.1% of the wealth you're risking, a bigger fish eventually shows up.
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>>502383
Yup. And even in non-drop-on-death systems if there's some shithead picking on people a bigger fish will usually respond to a call out in chat
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>>493576
this image applies to the entirety of FFXI vs FFXIV
FFXIV is fucking dogshit, I can't believe it's popular
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>>496769
>No innovation in 20 years, just copying EQ/WOW
people who repeat this never actually played EQ
they copy WoW, and WoW only copied a subset of things from EQ which were largely the bad things, because it was made by people who were upset with EQ's devs.
An MMO which copied EQ would be fucking awesome.
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>>495739
This is the truth. An underrated post.
The real answer is that nobody has time to sink weeks', months' worth of gameplay time into an MMO anymore. Real life has become far too demanding, with millions of other things demanding your attention. If you were able to invest a shitload of time into an MMO in the 2000s and prior, you were either a child or lived a cozy house life with a well paying job that didn't demand 80 hour work weeks. Nowadays, the latter is the norm, with everyone getting 2-3 jobs taking away all their time. The result is people simply not having the time to commit to a game and learning everything about it. Developers capitalized on this. Everything became faster, more streamlined, and more convenient. Matchmaking, instances that don't take more than an hour at most, fast travel, hitting level cap in a couple months as opposed to a couple years, etc. And if a game doesn't thrust them right into the action, they're not going to take the time to get to that point because it's just not worth the time investment when another game will give them the instant gratification they're looking for.

Simply put, if you're not reaching endgame content within a few hours, it's not worth it to most people. And people who take the game far too seriously (elitists, NEETs, griefers, etc.) will only serve to push them away further.
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>>502484
the western world has the lowest workforce participation in probably human history right now
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>>496665
>no different than people making you join their Ventrilo server in the days of old.
It is very much different. Ventrillo was a necessary evil used for fast-paced communication when one instance of typing with in-game chat could kill your entire raid. Outside of raids and boss runs, you'd still communicate in-game.
Nowadays, all communication is on Discord. Nobody talks to anybody in their games anymore, and if they do it's almost always a lone newbie asking for advice or, more commonly, stupid shit or begging. More often than not, he won't get a response, because everyone's too busy jerking themselves off on Discord with the game they're in the Discord group for minimized and probably forgot they even had it running.
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>>502485
And yet the cost of living hasn't dropped, nor are wages going up for the vast majority of jobs.
I'm not going to go deep into this argument since it's off-topic /pol/ shit, but you could support a house and family with a basic $20 wage in 1990. You can't do that now.
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I have fun with project gorgon. It's the only new MMO I've played in years that feels like an MMO rather than a single player game with a LFG tool attached.
it's made by one of the original creators of asheron's call and his wife, plus some other devs they were able to hire over time
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>>502502
How many people does it have?
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>>502504
only a couple hundred at peak I think, it's still in early access.
but you actually interact with them so I met and talked to more people in my time playing project gorgon than I did in FFXIV
it's definitely a unique experience, nearly everything you can do is a skill and your character starts off as a complete loser so it feels meaningful as you slowly get stronger
it has a decent trial if you want to check it out, fair warning that it's one of those charming janky games
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>>502419
Here's where a big part of why a lot of people seemingly hate pvp in mmorpgs.
A huge chunk of mmorpg players are so socially retarded they can't even write "help" in chat and instead they cry on forums or whatever how they were ganked unjustly.
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>>502439
They copy EQ/WOW basic gameplay loops, a modern day open world MMO without horrible instancing and raid or die game design would be great.

But lets be real, every single MMO, even 'action combat' MMOs, are still dragonfart dodging simulators because the basic AI of monsters hasn't evolved at all
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>>502567
Most modern "MMO" fans are actually autistic cookie clicker fans who think their progression in MMOs means something significant but absolutely abhor the idea of playing with others.
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>>502567
In most cases when you write help people just call you names or come to help the ganker. You're talking about a PvP game that just doesn't exist that's played by people who don't even exist in the real world anymore, much less in Sociopathy Simulator.
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>>502602
You are exactly one of the people i'm talking about.
You think that's gonna happen because "ppl bad" and you don't even try, and instead you come here building strawmen.
Even if i humor you and that was an actual situation. You could just join a guild. There are more than enough guilds that are full of people willing to help.
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>>493358
Simply put, they turned away from imitating real life. Loss means nothing, everything is instanced when in reality there is no instance between places, and microtransactions.

Instead of just letting people bitch that lose to keep their games actually balanced they cater to the losers.

Instead of trying to actually make a mmo, they lie and make multiplayer games with instancing. They are not massive at all and destroy immersion.

Instead of allowing PLAYER TRADES FOR MONEY like players already do in TOS breaking markets for literally EVERY ONLINE GAME and simply taking a top off the transaction when it improves like these websites do they do microtransaction when the other way would require only server maintenance to make profit. Instead they do over complicated and diluted bullshit with retarded laws because in their crazy ass minds it means legitimacy but all it does is turn people off from their game.

Fucking hell man, sales tax has been around for ever in many places and it works. Websites unaffiliated with game companies essentially tax every transaction done on their websites for actions in games they are not affiliated with just so that people can do what the fuck they actually wanted which was to trade for money, not give the company money for a vain mount or a game breaking equipment.

On day game devs are going to learn to make a game instead of pandering and stop banning people because they paid someone $20 for 1k gold and instead facilitate the transactions themselves while taking a single digit cut off the top like player auctions and other websites like them do.
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>>502604
No, I know that's going to happen because I'm playing a PvP MMO and I see it happen every single day.
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>>502608
Ashes of Creation seems perfect for your retarded ass.
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>>502608
>Retards play for money
fuck you. Grown men throw a ball and make create more financial security for their entire bloodline for generations to come while you struggle to save yourself lmao. People who don't want to make a return on things they do are literally wasting their time.
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>>502614
It doesn't count when you are the one calling them names.
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>>502608
Yeah that's what will improve MMO communities, endorsing people who are incentivized to bot and grind out all the resources with multiple accounts and play with an efficiency-first mind.
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>>502630
and Why not? everyone else is a subhuman monkey brain third worlder who's poor because they're dumb /Atleast you know that this game would be played by intelligent people.
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>>502630
>t. loser speaks
Maybe if they actually GM their games actively it wouldn't be a problem but I'm sure botting to you means farming even if the player is at the keyboard which isn't a problem if they're actually playing the game. Nothing prevents devs from playing a GM account and PMing people they suspect of botting and keeping an eye on them and what not. But hey, you people probably own bitcoin and think no evil can come from it.
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>>502631
>intelligent people
>intelligent
>people
Are you sure about the choice of these two words in a game infested with an endless amount of bots?
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>>502631
>Atleast you know that this game would be played by intelligent people
Monkeybrain poorfag third worlders are first in the line to play an MMO that they can sell gold in. Chinese bot farmers are next in line.
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>>502634
Well, it's inaccurate if you're playing it.
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>>502635
>I'd rather play games for nothing because I am nothing and no one.

People pay professional gamers and sport balls players to talk to them. You get insults for fighting good ideas. DO the math.
>>
>>
>Anonymous 01/15/22(Sat)00:45:13 No.502484▶>>502485
>
> >>495739
> This is the truth. An underrated post.
> The real answer is that nobody has time to sink weeks', months' worth of gameplay time into an MMO >anymore. Real life has become far too demanding, with millions of other things demanding your attention. If >you were able to invest a shitload of time into an MMO in the 2000s and prior, you were either a child or lived >a cozy house life with a well paying job that didn't demand 80 hour work weeks. Nowadays, the latter is the >norm, with everyone getting 2-3 jobs taking away all their time. The result is people simply not having the >time to commit to a game and learning everything about it. Developers capitalized on this. Everything >became faster, more streamlined, and more convenient. Matchmaking, instances that don't take more than >an hour at most, fast travel, hitting level cap in a couple months as opposed to a couple years, etc. And if a >game doesn't thrust them right into the action, they're not going to take the time to get to that point because >it's just not worth the time investment when another game will give them the instant gratification they're >looking for.

> Simply put, if you're not reaching endgame content within a few hours, it's not worth it to most people. >And people who take the game far too seriously (elitists, NEETs, griefers, etc.) will only serve to push them >away further.

lol no
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>>502567
It's wrong to call the police! Don't be a Kargen!
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>>502638
sorrey gussy I was replying to that retard and hit you with some collateral (You)s
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>>502608
Every modern MMORPG sells you their in-game currency for real money already. Just not as cheap as RMT sites but safe and you won't get banned. You would just invite gold farmers into your game if RMT was legal.
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>>502709
They literally already exist. Even in games like eve online where you can purchase plex to sell game time to players people STILL use those websites to buy isk and they always have stock which implies farmers have been there all the time. They exist for every game and being a farmer isn't a bad thing when one gets right down to it since they're ultimately doing a service for someone else when they make sale. If games make RMT legal they'd more more profit since it requires less employees to make a profit off of player trading instead of making vanity of golden bullshit that just floods their game. At least when players trade for money someone had to actually play the game to acquire the items for trade. Its unfair if you can pay $20 for the best sword in a game but it is fair if there's only three in circulation and one gets sold for $20 because it's a rare drop from a world boss. At the end of the day you're shilling against your own interests because games still die and people will always leave them because once the novelty wears off there's nothing to keep them hooked except the time they invested into the game but developers often times make changes that invalidate that time. The next best thing is legal RMT and the industry is going to head that way anyways thanks to crypto currencies and things like that. However a whole bunch of devs are making mistakes with it. The best way is to allow players the option to trade with either in game currency or real currency. No soul binds whatsoever. Actually have a real free economy and watch how the developer makes free money simply from player activity. Gold farmers already exist and hell, I have even sold to their websites in the past. Because at the end of the day if someone farms it, they consider it their property no matter how much scream the paperwork says otherwise. What kills games are shitty developers and players.
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>>502720
Dude no one wants you in their MMO.
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>>502722
Dude, no body wants YOU. You're the reason why the genre is dying and people are leaving it. Because people like you hold everyone back even if they do it only for wasting time.
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>>502722
No one ever takes my ideas into consideration but they take the retarded ideas you love to shill while players look elsewhere eternally because everyone is too busy riding the same dick because he's an "expert" and other bullshit. But when the game goes down? Expert no more I guee
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>>493367
Too much convenience fucking slaughters mmos, the core should be in creating a world that feels engaging, like you're actually moving around within it with other players rather than in a video game lobby.
Instead the core ends up being some dog shit story line and having more systems to grind through.
When i play a modern mmo i just can't get engaged, it all feels fake and frivolous because its so gamey and overly convenient
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>>494218
The game has to force people to interact with eachother otherwise they'll stay inside their comfort zone forever.
New world absolutely does not make players NEED eachother.
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>>502608
>>502720
Yeah just remember the huge success of D3. Oh wait, chances you were 4 or 5 during that time.
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>>502743
D3 was a shit game and implemented it like a retarded. They charged people to list instead of waiting for the listing to sell. That's why it wasn't successful you twat. It costs them as much as it does to list it in the regular auction house so it should have never cost to list. They were greedy and wanted money regardless if an item sold or not and that's why it failed and was wrong. Do it right next time and watch it work instead. Considering RMT websites were around for years well before d3 was released they had no excuse for what they did. Listing should be free so it doesn't discourage people from listing and money should only be taken when transactions are sold within the single digit margin considering paypal (or w/e digital service one uses) will take a cut off the top when they transfer it into a bank and so will the bank often times. Charging people to list before the item has even sold deincentivizes people from participating because no one is going to drop hundreds of dollars to figure out out sells for what because D3 got greedy and charged before a transaction went through. Combine that with retarded bind on equip rules and that's why it died. It was shit developer decisions for an awesome idea because they're cowards. People did make money from it regardless. Some in the 5 digit range. However, the huge listing fee (regardless if it sold or not so if it didn't sell D3 just took your fucking money), and the retarded game rules like BoE is what ruined it and BoE and BoP rules ruined regular player trading. It's why in WoW the auction is chiefly used for mats and leveling and hardly anything else. Maybe an epic at max level but everything else requires you to run shit even if you don't want to. Using in game currency or real money to get those things would make it where players stick around longer too since they know they'll never be locked out from getting goodies in the game because of retarded ideals and morals.
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>>502720
>>502755
I'd rather read reddit spacing than this shit.
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>>502758
I'm right and you know it because without players mmos can't exist and some even go as far as calling other players content (especially when it comes to pvp) and if I'm gonna be content for someone and breathing life into a game with my presence it's only right I make something back from it because once the novelty wears off there is nothing to keep players hanging around except for emotional and time investments and those erode over time due to developer changes that infringe upon their own player base. Furthermore, everyone wins in such a system. The developer, the players, and even you would. You're indoctrinated to believe it'd be harmful for games and yea, your type will bitch and moan about it without actually paying attention to the game you play. Exaggerating and proclaim untrue things because you're now triggered at the prospect of people making money from playing a game when grown men make money from playing games all the time. Allowing players to trade everything within a game for either in game currency or real currency is nothing but good. I guess it'd be bad if there's only one legendary sword around and the player decides to list it for $100 barring you from getting it, but at least it keeps the value up since it was introduced into the game via actual gameplay and only moved hands for the sake of money. Farming would only make the easy stuff cheap while the harder to get stuff would always be highly priced.

Hell I used to sell 1k gold for $20 back in vanilla wow days and the game grew in subscriptions. The trading doesn't harm a damn thing and I know I started late compared to others. I didn't farm all the time but even on a pve server, if you challenged the Chinese farmers to pvp, they'd drop their farming for a bit to fight you. You just hate people getting ahead, even if it's only an inch, because they ain't sucking your dick. You think it's vain but the value of things are determined by the players themselves as it should be.
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>>502766
You still don't seem to understand what a bot is.
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>>502803
I know what a bot is. It's a program that runs your character's actions. A lot of your kind of people call legitimate players bots though so no one who is actually trying to develop a game should ever listen to your kind because your advice would lead to the degeneration and eventual death of mmo games. This is why pvp should always be a thing. Makes it where if you got a problem with a character's behavior you can do something about it if it's that much of a bother.
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>>502309
Well no that's not really ideal pvp. That's why I hate how a lot of pvp involves heavily one sided matches because people don't want a fight. I think the problem is that grindy games with gear based pvp will never have a healthy competition of equally geared people to keep the hardcore players busy. Most low or mid tier players don't have it in them to turn their brain off and grind 10, 5 or even 3 hour sessions on a daily basis to stay relevant in pvp so top players typically end up having to punch down just to get a fight. Some of the games I've played top players end up getting bored of the game because they fight the same guilds and people for months or years but don't want to quit because of the time investment.
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>>502806
It is ideal pvp. It's why you get upset at the groups who do that and they never tire of winning. Solo best < group best.
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>>502805
What you don't understand is that bot will run infinetly.
It doesn't matter if you kill a bot once or twice, or even 15 times when the bot will be making gold non stop.
If you don't understand why that's a bad thing when you can freely change gold for real money, you are beyond saving.
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>>502812
That's not a good excuse to punish legitimate players. You're the kind of cuck that thinks disarming people is a good idea because of a few bad.
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>>502815
There's literally 0 advantages for the game itself from legalizing RWT. The only people who would want it are poorniggers who treat MMOs as a revenue stream and casual faggots who want to pay to win.
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>>502807
Meh that's why I and a lot of other endgame pvpers stopped playing BDO for a while. Last time I played the end game siege scene got so bad because there were no fights, and people eventually stopped wanting to fight, instead preferring to commit to boring politics and castle trading. Nobody was willing to step down to actually crush noobs more than a few times because it was just boring, it's not fun playing against uncoordinated newbies who don't know how the game works because it doesn't fulfill the craving of a good fight and teaching them how to play siege isn't worth it because they always end up quitting before endgame. Winning begins to matter a lot less when it's like steamrolling bots that can't fight back. Though I still do play shadowbane every now and then because that game is way better suited for 1v1 and 1vX so it doesn't matter that the population is too low for large scale fights.
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>>502823
It's why actual pvp games like fps shooters are superior. If you're mopping the floor with the enemy team you can always use a weaker gun or nerf yourself somehow. In WoW I genuinely beat the same class in duels in greens when they often times had epics but in games like the first modern warfare I'd do things like use the pistol and knife only or switch to weaker autos like the scorpion. In that game the starting m16 with three round best was the best gun in the game after a few perk unlocks. Even before that it was still the superior choice 99% of the time. It was so good with stopping power and deep penetration that the game became boring for me so I'd typically start using other weapons I wasn't so good with just to increase the challenge. It can be done like that in mmorpgs but it's unwise because if someone competent comes by that is in superior gear you will lose. Unlike shooters where once you have a feel with what you're working against and with there never is a surprise
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>>502821
>game company makes money from doing nothing
>players make money from their favorite hobby
You're wrong. Furthermore, people still trade for money and I still sell but I'd rather the cut I give to the websites that help facilitate the transactions go to the game developers instead but that can't happen because the whole time people like you were lying about how it would ruin games when it's been alongside it the entire time and a significant portion of the player base participates in it. I even had a friend who sold his wow account during TBC for over $2000. I sold an eve online account for $500 and both gold and isk several times. People buy from me even when I'm not the lowest seller. Instead of some website totally unaffiliated with the game I'm playing taking money for these trades that have been going on since the 1990s I'd rather the game company make it. There would be an uptick int he number of participants if it devs allowed it but it'd be from legitimate players because the botters were always there. They're the competition on those websites and I still managed to break the 4 digit barrier when I used to sell.

There was a time in WoW where I didn't even sell directly to the players but sold to a supplier. In eq, I even managed to get people who played the game while I was going to school to farm crafting materials for me. I'd come back home from school, give them in game money, and craft things with the materials that I would yield a profit for me. Guess what happened. I sold all that in game money to players for real money. Even rl friends have given me money for in game money and items in the past. I either initiate a transaction within the game itself and no one takes a cut from our transaction except paypal and the bank, or through websites where you can post a listing, or through websites where you're selling directly to a sellers who collected the stuff from other players to build a stock pile to always have a listing available.
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>>502854
>videogames become a job
>this is a good thing
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>>502872
I hate this guy. He doesn't care about anyone at all. I'm still going to make money but you don't even care about the game companies themselves because even if I didn't sell from time to time, others do and they aren't going to stop which shows it's a naturally occurring thing. Rich people DO play games btw and rich people are the ones who typically provide the jobs. Poorfags ain't buying lmao but if YOU want to turn the game into a job, that'd be on you. Most people would probably just play the game and when they're sorting their inventory/banks that's probably when they'd go make a listing for real money if they have anything worth of value which would be determined by the player base. You talk about the game being ruined but the only thing that would be ruined are the profits of those big time sellers and who cares about them? They don't even share their profits with the company they profit off of. They give it to people who didn't even work on the game and probably don't play it just so they can make their thousands per month. With it being legal there would be more buyers alongside the sellers and that would be a beautiful thing to behold
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>>502882
I didn't read any of that shit but whatever you said you're wrong.
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>>502847
Yeah I get your point. Fantasy MMOs will never be anything like actual pvp games, but at the same time there has never been many fantasy games with real pvp so I just default to MMOs. Besides mobas and moba styled games, it's just not a thing really. Any time you bring up a fantasy game that's also pvp, most people and search engines immediately think MMO styled game or 5v5 moba/hero shooter. I've seen some battle royale games picking up the concept, but I really cannot stand battle royale. I just assume it's probably pretty difficult to create a tdm/objective mode styled game with both magic and melee weapons in it, while also having more than 10 players in any given match. Some games like dmmm and forge tried to do this but weren't very good at all. Though dmmm had really cool concepts for a fantasy pvp mode like a tug-of-war objective based mode between humans and undead that started on a neutral map, and depending on which team was winning the game would push the players closer or further towards the undead or human bases. It's really basic stuff but you don't really see this in fantasy games.
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>>502502
luv me gorgon
still has the problem of being mostly soloable and personally the jank is juuust a bit over the point where it stops being cute, combat in particular flows like chunky vomit
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>>502902
Wildstar's combat was interesting and imo going in the right direction when it came to pve AND pvp. Tera's pvp can be pretty fun. Your animation matters weather or not you miss. It isn't chance based. It's they literally dodge the attack by pressing a button kind of combat. Slayer is my fav class in it and I usually did well enough to even solo bosses on it (though a single mistake usually meant death. Rarely would I recover) PVP is a blast as well and all the classes are balanced pretty good if you know how to play them and what to expect from other classes. Like if you see a slayer winding up his sword to do a stab with one hand, you know not to stand in front of him since that's like a melee nuke. Paying attention to your enemy is king in pvp in that game. Don't want to waste all you got on a dude blocking you or a mage about to set you on fire.
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>>502933
>>502902
Though in pve I did my magic because of the great sword's length. Slayers always take a step when they swing their regular melee combo so I utilized this by basically hitting boss or elite npcs with the end of the animation, usually at an angle as I did the circle of death around them. Big monsters always have like a half second or second wind up time before swinging so a slayer could get in like 2 or three light hits before having to move. Do power moves when you're behind them but light moves to keep mobility up while swinging your sword in 180 degree diagonal arcs. PVP was a whole different ball game not just because of how classes are made but also in the way players play. Because some power moves you can combo together to make the chain more effective or quicker and sometimes, people would use their special abilities in unorthodox ways.
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>>502755
Charging a fee to list is completely normal for an AUCTION. Bringing your goods to market ALWAYS has a cost. It's to disincentivize utter chinkshit market flooding. Someone actually has to consider if they are trying to sell something that has value. Or if they're being an absolute chink and posting it for 10,000x the fair market value hoping someone misclicks.

For someone who "appreciates" free markets you should appreciate when they aren't totally degenerate information diarrhea.
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>>502937
You can disincentive market flooding by putting a limit on how many orders you're allowed to list. Even WoW has a limit to their auction house but there is no reason to introduce the same rules applied in auctions to video games. That's just amateurish. It doesn't cost me to list on player auctions. Just limit how many listing people are allowed to have by 5 and make the game subscription based like how mmorpgs used to be since that'd disincentive multi-boxers and people who get banned. Making games ftp is a mistake unless it's something like planetside. MMORPGS, the true ones, should always be guarded by a sub fee. That alone secures the game from cheaters and botters especially if you make it where they'd have to repurchase the game afterwards. $60+$15 sub is a great disincentive for people.
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>>502946
Goes without saying but in game currency should have a much higher limit than real currency listings. Like the limit that WoW has.
>>
auction fees exist to reduce inflation, the problem is that they're never high enough
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>>503021
Another retarded argument. So what is it with you people? Does making RMT legal reduce the prices of everything or not? All an auction fee for RMT would do is discourage people from it since it's a risk considering it might not sell. Competition alone would drive the prices down so that's invalid. It serves to pay people regardless if there is a loss or not and nothing else. It's like getting a trophy despite failing. It's immoral and unnecessary.
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>>503035
RMT should be illegal and the punishment should be execution
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>>503036
I'm going to make $100 soon for playing video games. You're going to do nothing about it either but bitch and moan. At least I have enough decency to dare suggest that game companies take a slice of the pie while you'd rather deny everyone over your indoctrinated feelings.
>>
>>503037
You're not playing a game, you're working.
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>>503039
What a lame argument. I bet if I ganked your ass in a mmorpg you wouldn't even believe it was me because of your presumptions.

>People like doing something I don't like doing
Which is contradicting on your part considering every mmorpg has a grind of some sort that essentially amounts to what farming is. Pressing the same buttons over and over again.
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>>503041
>noooo I like grinding away for pennies an hour!!!!!
nobody believes this
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>>503039
At least when I make money from my gaming time it is literally worth more than your time spent in it. I find people who are against it the most are in the minority because the people who give me their money would agree that my time spent in the game was more valuable than yours.

So while all you can do is pout about how I'm working (protip: I'm not) I'll still keep playing games as I see fit and make a return here and there while all you do is lose all your time invalidating any value out of yourself. People who play for free are literally worth less than those who don't. Buyers agree. Otherwise, they'd give you money for your "ideals"
>>
Also I have never been banned from a game where I made a return. So even if it's against TOS, there is always a way to RMT and if they made it like 1984 and spying and recording every little action to enforce retarded ideals and morals they'd find themselves struggling for new players soon enough.
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>>502946
I absolutely agree that a game's pricing is a very important filter.

The "anonymity magnitude" is another important mechanism. For example, in Classic WoW if you ruin your reputation on a server by being a piece of shit you might just be fucked. To the point that you have to (pay money) and transfer servers. Your social character becomes attached to your player character. This is cultivated when servers are small and insular. However, cross-realm and "LFG" throw it out the window.

Both of these things have to do with increasing personal attachment and investment, and thereby increasing conscientiousness. Notice, also, the more a game is a cross-section of the real world the lower quality the community becomes.
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>>503021
I always viewed them as a tool to prevent flipping, scalping, and market manipulation. I always viewed "gold sinks" as the primary tool for reducing inflation. It would be interesting to see data on how much money gets consumed by these various things. Agree that AH fees are never high enough.
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>>503057
Multi-boxing is what keeps games like eve from being more serious since there is no consequence to using an alt no one knows is tied to your main account. Being forced to stick to one character does add value to a game that gets taken away the second you fragment it into instances (so any real consequence is avoided) or when they allow people to play more than one account at a time from the same machine. I can understand freinds playing from the same modem ip in the same room together but there has to be a way to detect accounts coming from the same pc.
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>>503049
Modern MMOs are very quick to detect and punish RMT because they often try to sell you the ingame currency themself. What games are you playing?
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>>502823
>ruins the game for everyone until everyone else quits
>gets bored and leaves
Yeah, typical PvPtard.
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>>503148
siege didn't ruin the game for anybody retard. there just weren't enough players to support the mode at the time
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>>503102
Modern MMOs also lie and exaggerate their features and for some reason you believe them.
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Cause kids don't think they're cool anymore, the niggers ruined mainstream gaming
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>>503037
>I'm going to make less than a day's pay soon by working weeks in a video game
You're retarded, a literal thirdie or both.
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>>493562
>>493570
i think a lot of people playing dont actually have any experiences in classic or older mmos so they dont even know whats there to miss in the first place
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something I always found interesting was how much runescape got ignored by devs
it was one of the most successful MMOs of all time as far as I know, but there's never really been any attempts to clone it done by an actual professional studio
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>>495149
>there's so many different kinds of MMOs you could make that are all interesting in their own ways
can you name a few more? sounds interesting
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>>503523
Uh like
so you're a car and you attach turrets
then you get blown up by other cars they pick up your turrets and attach to their turrets
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>>503514
There's one MMO that cloned Runescape HD's art style and even some cosmetic items, but copied literally none of the gameplay details.
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>>503535
Was easier to find than I expected, it's called Eldevin.
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>>495443
i think youre right to some degree, but i would disagree that every player who likes open world pvp is a psychopath. the camping ones though, they might be closer to that
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>>503523
>name a few more
More what? There aren't any interesting current MMOs. There's interesting MMOs you could make though.

What about a post-apocalyptic MMO where resources are extremely scarce? If you want to tackle a dungeon you'll need potions, but they're very hard to find. Bows are powerful, but arrows are hard to come by. You can catch diseases that debuff you but it's hard to cure so you may have it for a long time. Anyone can find all this loot, they're not tied to levels or autistic guilds, they're just simply rare.

A cyberpunk dystopia MMO where the surface of the city is full of cops, the top of buildings are full of drones, and they kill you if they recognize you. Players have to hide around underground and in back alleys, and move through windows and powerlines from building to building to get around. You can go to the streets or rooftops to use shops and NPCs or pickpocket passing NPCs or whatever, but you need to hide from the cops and use disguises to become less recognizable. Unless you want to bait cops to other players that is. With enough players you can take down some cops and get valuable items from them, but their strength increases in a GTA-like way the more you fight them.

1/4
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>>503585
An MMO where you explore procedurally generated trap-filled dungeons that are extremely hard and require careful planning? There's poison traps, curses, secret passages, various kinds of blockades, dry areas that increase your thirst, undead areas that increase your hunger, a miniboss... the longer you explore, the more likely you are to run into an obstacle that can't be soloed through by a single player because it requires some specialization from another class or something.

A small fun harry potter magic school social MMO where you can create spells with some kind of dynamic magic system. You can make things or other player levitate and move around, you can use a wind spell to push yourself around if you're levitating, you can set things on fire and put them out with water, you can paint onto walls or wash paint off, grow plants, summon/fight living creatures that are hostile or helpful, modify terrain outside of the school building, summon clouds and move furniture on top of it. Make it a very dynamic and emergent magic spell sandbox game. If you cause too much trouble then the teachers will try to stop you.

2/4
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>>503587
MMO that's constantly being messed around with admins who roleplay as gods. Players will directly interact with the "gods", and world-changing events may happen on a whim. There's many different gods who have different personalities and preferences and players can choose to align or go against specific gods. The admins are playing a real-time level editor where they can modify terrain and place NPCs and summon events and catastrophies and create quests, and the map is dynamic so monsters can attack cities and destroy them if nobody stops them. Allow players to build as well, the gods can smite you if you "grief" too much, or they may support you if you build something impressive. Take volunteers from the community to become minor gods that have a limited amount of power, or only have power over a limited section of the map, this way there's enough gods to entertain all players without requiring you to hire lots of admins. Obviously the developers need to keep an eye out so self obsessed trannies don't become gods.

MMO where inventory space is very limited. If you want to move a lot of resources around, you need to put it into a carriage and make round trips. This could be a PvP MMO but it doesn't have to, the fact that items are now physical things that need to be transported changes a lot of things by itself.

3/4
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>>496173
underrated post
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>>503588
I don't know if >>503532 was joking, but WHAT ABOUT an MMO where you drive around with a vehicle, and can attach parts from other people's vehicles into yours? Kill a "monster" (see: an NPC vehicle), and it drops a bunch of parts that you can attach to yourself if you want. You can grind mobs to find parts to get stronger, or you can kill players and they'll drop some of their parts. You don't lose everything on death, but you lose a bunch, most players will look like wacky Mad Max vehicles put together from random parts, you're not supposed to get attached to your vehicle but you can upgrade it a lot if you're good at the game. If you keep dying and losing your parts, you'll have to start fighting lower tier NPCs/players.

What about an MMO with disposable vehicles. You can find a vehicle in the world, enter it for a power boost, but it has limited life. Nobody owns vehicles, so if you leave it someone else can take it. They would be common and disposable enough that nobody could "hoard" them or even want to, but they would be uncommon and strong enough to be desirable. It would add an interesting dynamic to the game.

The sky is the limit when you stop copying WoW.

4/4
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>>503588
>MMO where inventory space is very limited.
Fuck no, that's a crap mechanic to design a game around. Just go play LOTRO instead. On top of limited inventory space it also has tons of adjective variants of useless crap that can drop.
But you can increase your inventory limit in the cash shop! Even worse, there are dozens of local money-like items around the world that take up inventory space until you buy the ten-dollar SUUUUPER WALLET. (sometimes on sale for 75% off)
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>>503600
>that's a crap mechanic to design a game around
Why?
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>>503605
He's only half right. Plenty of games give you limited inventory space with the intention of filling it up with completely useless shit to convince you to buy more inventory slots with money.
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>>503626
That's a greedy developer problem, not a problem with the feature. You can use the same argument to dismiss any and every mechanic.
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>>493367
Anything that mentions scam citizen as being innovative instantly loses all credibility.
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>>503590
Problem is I don't think anyone wants to stop copying WoW. Its not a game design or tech problem, its a marketing problem and I don't see that changing until a major paradigm shift in mass-media occurs.
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>>503590
Drift City.
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>>497092
wasnt dark souls a lot like this in the beginning based on the fact that a lot of lore is not spoken out but in item descriptions and such?
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is there a game that has pvp like Ro's WOE? Because that was the most fun i had with mmo pvp.
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>>501928
this actually makes ma angry in A LOT of games ffs how can that be so hard
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>>502306
why would someone mostly (only?) interested in pvp in the end even start an mmo?
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>>504104
Because mmos are a poor simulation of society so as such they're the systems where shit people win at pvp. In other games it's skill-dependent, but in mmos it's just about sociopathic ladder climbing and fucking people over.
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>>502720
i bet you like nfts too
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>>504108
Speaking of NFTs, CCR is making some old ass shitty mmo server with crypto bullshit. I'm curious how fast will it flop.
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>>503585
>>503587
>>503588
>>503590
i see. yeah i like a lot of your ideas, especially the car one, but i think most of them would more be on the round based multiplayer game side than a mmo(rpg) with a constant world. not saying it needs to have that to be fun, but im not sure it would get the feeling of those mmos we all talk about that we want back. there needs to be a balance of adventure/fear of the unknown and comfort/fantasy so it cant be all survival and loss in the gameplay.

also the harry potter thing is being kinda made right now isnt it? i dont know hoe the hogwarts game will be gameplay wise but what i heard sounded kinda similar.
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>>503600
if the game is designed to work with that space you have and doesnt throw 1million items at you it can be okay i htink
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>>504106
but his argument was he wants to test who is the best. theres a ton of games that are better for that. i can understand enjoying pvp in an mmo (i do too) but it would never be the main argument why i play that game.
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>>504104
The pinnacle of any good mmo is pvp.
That's what you do when you have the best gear, and you know the game inside out and you compete with supposedly similar people.
Every game and player who don't understand this are usually fucking retarded.
Better question is, why would you play an mmorpg for the pve content?
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>>504124
>Better question is, why would you play an mmorpg for the pve content?
Ask the guy playing PvE during weeks, even months, to start playing PvP.

Oh, and you love PvP so much that you want to play with another (or all) class? Well, time to do PvE chores for months. Instead of just playing PvP in your PvP game. Damn, these non-MMORPG players must be really dumb, unlike you.
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>>504124
i mostly play mmos because i like the immersion/world and for the sake of exploring and adventuring into areas i do not know yet. wow was really good at this when it first came out. even single mobs could wreck you, areas sometimes had random stronger mobs running around etc. also yeah, i do like pve content. i enjoy the story too and if its good it adds to the immersion as well and also explains the massive count of adventurers beside you. i dont think you need an epic story for your character but you should at least have some purpose in the world to be able to care for the game.

im not against open pvp for that very reason (immersion) too, i just thing griefing/camping should have really harsh punishments and you need to regulate/balance it very well. also im not sure a mmorpg with a focus on pvp can have a community that is essentially understanding themselfes as one and not as enemies altogether. if you dont want a super toxic environment (that always will lose players) there needs to be a lot of sportsmanship in the game wich is basically impossible with the systems we have in multiplayer games so far.
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>>504127
>If you like one thing, you can't like the other thing
Holy shit you indeed are retarded as i said.
It's the combination of PvP and PvE content.
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>>504123
>>but his argument was he wants to test who is the best.
Yeah protip: people lie, especially sociopaths. They always say they want fair competition but they just want to crush people to jerk off.
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>>504129
>i just thing griefing/camping should have really harsh punishments and you need to regulate/balance it very well
What you want (and can do) is a chat where you can ask for help when you get ganked.
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>>504124
>Better question is, why would you play an mmorpg for the pve content?
You tell me, since seems (>>504146) you're the one who enjoy MMORPG PvE.
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>>504150
Why would anyone help you? People who PvP don't give a shit about anyone else, or they wouldn't be PvPing, they would be doing something productive for the community.
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>>504150
>chat
Either "git gud" and nobody comes or someone comes and the ganker just run like the shitter he is just to gank low levels in other zone. That's all your "user created emergent gameplay".
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Most MMOs these days have bland, reused bullshit for the story (someone or something invades the/a kingdom and (You) are the chosen one), not to mention they're all an uphill slog to max level. That's when the REAL game starts, which includes daily and weekly grinding of specific dungeons and/or raids for that +1 AC.

Unfortunately the older MMO players don't have the luxury of time and Zoomers don't have the attention span. This results in a primarily solo leveling experience so you can go at your own pace and the daily/weekly lockouts ensure you have a very specific time to do those things.
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>>504155
Or they just fuck you up together with the ganker because the entire PvP clique sticks together no matter what side they're on.
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>>504129
>>504155

I honestly think New World was on to something with their PvP system.

You had to turn on Criminal Intent, which changed your nameplate color, but didn't allow people to attack you. This helped because you could be cautious around people with Criminal Intent on. Once they attacked a player, their nameplate changed color again for something like 15-30 minutes, during which ANYONE could attack them (even without Criminal Intent on). If the attacking player killed someone they got hit with the Murderer nameplate for 1 hour. It made going to Outposts and safe zones hell because non-PvPers would just gank the hell out of your without consequence.

There were Outposts in contested areas that weren't safe zones and most of the PvP guilds just hung out in whichever Outpost they controlled and they dominated the higher tier resources, mostly battling with each other. But I do remember that a few guys were getting ganked/camped near the higher tier resources, so they asked me and bunch of other people to help fight back. We ended up spending an hour just dicking around and fighting the PvPers, which ended up being a lot of fun, and I hate PvP usually.
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>>504152
>>504155
i honestly dont know how it is now in those scenarios but when i played wow as a teen back then people would help. i remember being ganked in stranglethorn and asking a friend to help me who actually came and killed the guy so i could get back to my feet.
the other one then started asking for help too and we had some small scale battle in the middle of the jungle wich was really fun then. all kinds of players participated, all kinds of levels and of course some aksed their maxlvl friends to help too. i played alliance at the time and we overtook the camp in the middle of the map for some time before they drove us out again and the fight died down. i had similar experiences on horde side too, people helped me out a lot of times and if i saw someone attacking one of my side i'd help. and yes ofc i sometimes killed a low lvl person just for the sake of it but i never camped people.
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>>504159
WoW isn't a sandbox PvP game, and it doesn't allow you to attack your own faction, it's a completely different type of game that we're talking about.
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>>504161
i think i never played one of those then. how do factions then work in those games? i can imagine theres not the feeling of comraderie among random players without a fixed faction you choose and that could make people more hesistant to help a stranger.
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>>504162

There's a lot of MMOs that don't really group players by faction, but instead the only "factions" are guilds. Beta New World (before the PvE change) and Mortal Online 2 are two recent onces I can think of

The original PvP version of New World was like this, so anyone could attack anyone. I actually helped quite a few people and had a bunch help me when I got ganked by a rando or a group of PvPers.

People that prefer PvE will generally help in PvP if they see another peaceful player getting shit on.
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>>504166
ah i see. yeah i can also see myself in the last point you make.

so you can basically always "switch" factions and if you're not in a guild or similar you cant really expect any help from others? i mean i understand why not every game can or want to have a faction system thats like wow but this sounds like it would be toxic pretty quick since all the pvp people are in one guild and do nothing but pvp ofc while other guilds focus on other things and get disrupted every time while not even interested in pvp. the problem is the focus of like-minded people in one "faction" i think. its not balanced and probably will never be and will just make the different minded people hate each other.
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>>504162
In Archeage you have factions, but you can flag to attack your own faction too. In practice this means that PvPers shit on everyone regardless of faction, because normal people will very rarely flag on anyone. So when they have to band together and flag on the PvPers they won't, causing the PvP guilds to grow unchecked, and get better gear than everyone else. Then they do endgame bosses and prevent everyone else from doing the endgame bosses. Everyone else eventually just quits because it's pointless to play if you're not in the endgame guild (there's always just one per server).
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>>493358
no reason to group with people in a braindead easy game that's specifically designed to be impossible to fail at
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Could sharding ever be reversed, when gamedev is about making $?
Lets say general server-client up/down bandwidth is 10KB / s. Every player adds their own 10KB/s upkeep plus 100B/s to the server updates to every other player in the area.
Imagine 8 mil players subbed. 10% of subbed players are online. 10% of these players are in large cities, 80,000.
Average number of players in a city, for any random player, lets say is about 50 (for any realm), except, some players see 300 players in their city. Because of the exponential nature of player-to-data-rate, lets bump the average up to 100. (From the server's perspective, a player with 300 players in the city will cause 2.34 times more data transfer than if that player rolled on a low-pop with 100 players in the city).
So, the very loosely approximated data per 100-player city is 2MB/s to cover for all present. (hint: it's not 2MB, and it's more). Take the total number of "averaged player"s and we have 2MB*80,000/100 = 1.6GB / s for all players in any high traffic area (even two raids passing each other in stranglethorn).

Now, shard players so that we rarely bump over 50 players in one area. Taking the average down to 35 players in large cities. 474KB/s. 35 players is generous (due to a cap of players being used, the exponential effect at upper outliers is greatly reduced). Using the same number of players for scale, what's an idea of how much money a company save by destroying the community?: At 0.02$ / GB...

$130 - ($30.50 *100/35) = $42.86 per month per 100 players-in-high-traffic-areas, or $342,800 / month saved by destroying the community and implementing sharding, if the game had 8million subs, with 10% utilization of sub-time, and 10% of those players in a high traffic area.

If they can keep you subbed while saving $100,000s/month they'll fuck the game instead. If you're a diehard inbred non-streamer fan-fiction buyer that never unsubs, they should lower your bandwidth as well.
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>>504176
that sounds like its designed to be toxic
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>>504204
>Could sharding ever be reversed
Yes, by indie and AA developers who actually care about videogames instead of purely profit.
>>
The concept of characters locked to servers should have been done away with long ago but it still exists because devs can use it to milk money from server transfers.
Don't really like the game, but it's clear that Runescape's model is and always has been the superior one in this area. Also allows devs to easily add/remove servers as needed without interfering with players at all.
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>>504235
Depends on the game. Only some MMORPGs can get away with shards and being able to freely switch between them. It's an unfun feature that eliminates exploration.
MMORPGs shouldn't have more two or three servers. Just one would be ideal. Adding and merging servers is a lazy way to adjust to the size of your playerbase.
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what's wrong with new world? it's not dying and is doing strong despite a content drought.
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>>504819
>losing 5-10k players a week
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>>504856
It's been pretty stable at 90-100k
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>>504861
Well see. They were trending down then the holidays + sales hit. They went slightly upward for a few weeks, now we're going back down again. If it goes down every week that's not a good sign.
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>>504914
People who defend New World are disingenuous, that anon is pulling your tail. Like you said, it had a little bump thanks to the holidays but it had been declining before it, and now it's declining again. To their credit, they had been parroting the 100k number for a while but at least that anon can admit it's at around 90k now.
>>
This is naive on several levels.





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