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Explain MMO's to me, /vm/. Even though I've tried multiple times, I've never been able to get into one. Here's how I see them:

Theme park MMO's:
>reminds me of the "everyone is special" mentality
>"Congratulations! YOU have defeated the big baddie and saved the world! You and all the other millions of players who completed the questline before you, that is."
>The whole genre to me looks like a single player game with some optional co-op.
>With shit like instance dungeon + auto-grouping, the overworld is just an over glorified hub

Sandbox MMO's:
>you can do ANYTHING. Except there's nothing interesting to do.
>you could train your skills by doing the same monotonous task over and over again
>activities like mining and chopping trees are so cookie-clicker-like, even a bot can do it (and more often than not, they do)
>you could get rich playing the market! Why tho? To buy the gear you want, then what?

What baffles me the most about MMO's is they don't try to simulate another world. I thought that was the whole point of it, before playing the genre. To create another world you can step in and be immersed as if it was real, just like in all those movies, novels, animes, etc. Instead, everything is covered in pure video game logic, down to the most basic stuff. Example: animals behave like video game mobs instead of actual animals. And when you chop down a tree, it respawns seconds later. That's stupid.
>but without that, what if the players chop every tree down?
Let them. Then have multiple simulation systems attached to it, where cutting down all trees cause an ecological disaster. Whoever has private forests, become rich. Players would have to start planting trees back in order to restore balance to nature. Then they learn their lesson and start putting up player-enforced policies on planting after chopping down trees.
>>
>>347501
>What baffles me the most about MMO's is they don't try to simulate another world.
good ones do.
but it sounds like you've only played WoW-clone trash.
FFXI, Ragnarok Online and Eve Online are literally the definition of perfect MMOs
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>>347529
This guy right here.
>FFXI, Ragnarok Online and Eve Online
The Genre peaked with these games.
Eve might be a bit different to play but it's got that as well.
WoW sort of standardized the genre and just like cover shooters. It's just followed the same things for a long time.
The genre is waiting for the next big thing to copy without looking back at the legacy of genre to find things that should be carried over.
>>
mmo rpg peaked around 2005/2007 and the future is "classic" versions and private servers, running those unbeatable games forever, just like we keep playing retro games
any company relying heavily on a mmorpg with "new content" is doomed to fail
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>>347501
>Whoever has private forests, become rich.
You obviously can't just trigger the simulation unless someone already owns a private forest because it's just the same level of bullshit. And what does owning a private forest imply within the system of the game? This is essentially going to be an early game thing since people will catch on and just write a wiki article about it.

People will min-max, especially if it's a clear punishment vs clear gain issue. You're forgetting how the games got to the state that they're in now.
>>
>>347529
>>347566
>>347570
sounds like the usual "it was better back in my day" boomer posting to me, tbqh.
>>347589
No fucking clue what you're even trying to say, dude. I'm not talking about an event that triggers. I'm talking about systems and simulations.
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>>347501
most of that stuff goes for all single player rpg games
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>>347501
>Players would have to start planting trees back in order to restore balance to nature. Then they learn their lesson and start putting up player-enforced policies on planting after chopping down trees.
See that's the thing, no they wouldn't. There's absolutely nothing you can do in MMOs that would enforce players behaving like normal human beings, whatever is the meta, that's what they'll do, no one cares about the world having trees or anything like that, that's a minor aesthetic difference. MMOs are an unregulated capitalism simulation that shows human nature much better than the real world. And even when you try to regulate it, people will exploit the system to the best of their ability, and you'll end up with abominable subsystems that exist only as a workaround to the main system and don't make any sense whatsoever otherwise.
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>>347599
He's talking about metagaming
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>>347599
>sounds like the usual "it was better back in my day" boomer posting to me, tbqh.
You're right, but it's both true and not true. Older MMOs were definitely designed more with a "here's a setting, here's hundreds of people to interact with". Theme parks corrupted that idea, because they wanted to funnel people towards particular goals, levels, or points of interest.

That said you're not wrong in the OP either, because none of the games we're nostalgic for are actually fun to play. What is fun is interacting with other people in the world. And let's be clear, humans will only interact when they have to. Older games just forced it more.

And thanks to either technology or focus there really aren't any back then that went all in for simulating a world down to the last action of trees. Part of what forces MMOs to become more like single player games is that the playerbase for MMOs has become so broad and other games have taken up MMO aspects. Not to mention WoW sterilizing the genre by unintentionally being an enormous cash cow. Your example of trees makes me think that what you really want is a persistent Minecraft server. And I don't mean that as a criticism, I mean that it can offer the things you're looking for more than MMOs have tried to.
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>>349231
>Older games just forced it more.
I think newer games have been forcing the opposite, which is a problem. WoW-likes with XP systems often put you at odds with other players, which encourages a lone wolf, "me against the world" mentality.
Plus, most RP is completely detached from reality, since quests are so mechanical that they don't have any real flavor, and RP with players requires severe autism to even initiate the damn thing.
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>>347501
>ecological disaster
ECO
okay if you RP
runs like dogshit
>>
>>347501
I think wakfu tried something like that
Haven't played it myself but i read a bit about the system a while back

They have an ecosystem bonus, if the plants/monsters in a map go below or over a threshold then you get penalties
Also there are nations and some territories are up for grabs, if a nation claims them they can put laws in place, if a player from a different nation starts collecting resources or killing monsters there they get a 'wanted' level
>>
>>347501
>MMO's
Are you trying to bait people like me into calling you retarded for doing improper grammar?
>>
>>349181
>that's a minor aesthetic difference
That's the most brainlet take. Wood is a resource, animal pelts, meat and bones are resources. There would be a gigantic market demand for those items. Thus, people would plant the fucking trees.
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>>349511
the irony of this post
>>
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So originally MMORPGs were huge on the massive part. It was all about socializing, community, and exploring the world. This was the "golden" age of MMORPGs. This was mainly about 1995 to 2008. But this was a big part of it not just because of the design of the MMORPGs allowed for it to flourish, but also some of the internet based things we see today weren't popular. Social Media wasn't attached to everyone's lives like a parasite. Everyone didn't know about or have a wealth of guides to tell them exactly how to play, what to do, what not to do, etc. And finally MMORPGs weren't nearly as big, which cemented the need to actually communicate. You also had diverse communities. PvP games like MOBAs weren't huge yet. So you had a really good PvP community who played MMORPGs because there wasn't anything else like it.

Now a days, MMORPGs are more about competition. People want to be the first, fastest, best, most achievements, whatever. You're directly competing with those around you, rather than playing with them. This isn't the developers fault entirely. The community just changed. People don't really care about socializing because...it's not really needed. They have other outlets for that. There aren't diverse communities because there are other games now that better cater to them. So MMORPGs just became more competitive over immersive to be frank. There wasn't much the gaming devs could do to stop this either. A lot of wheels turned without their control. Classic WoW is such a great example of this change in tone. Yeah the devs changed some things vs the original release, I wont deny that. But look how the community changed. While boosting and other behaviors were there in the original release, they weren't as widespread. But in Classic WoW? Buying gold, gate keeping based on what some streamer said, following guides religiously, boosting (Bliz + player), min/max, etc.

I'm constantly chasing that 1995-2008 experience knowing I'll never find it again.
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>>347501
Meh, i'm kinda done with mmorpg's these days. I'm basically waiting for the next big thing, some MMOVRG... imagine something like GTA 6 online in VR; own your car, your house, a place in a virtual world. Do missions with real groups of friends also living in that world.

That shit is gonna be awesome.
>>
>>349847
What are you playing currently?
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>>347501
mmos are simply group hobbies where you do activities while meeting new people.

Generally the ones that fail are incapable of grasping this, and focus on the content or gameplay, while realistically the gameplay is just weak across the board.

They're forms of social media, and i think the next generation of mmos will definitely be in VR and heavily interaction based.
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>>349980
that would be awesome indeed. Didn't rockstar hire some team to work on vr a while ago?
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>>347501
Companies are just too lazy to try and improve the formula of games like SWGalaxies. Why try if they will get the same money for half the effort? Why try to simulate IRL when is Hell to try it?
Look at Civilization Online it was quite dynamic all was built by players and world resources swifted but they just dropped it because it was too much work & new systems required so much dev IQ that they just scrapped it.

Speaking of which you do have some mmos that try to do the World as it should. Wakfu has some nice ecosystem intrincates where you just could deforestate a whole area and It took a hell lot of time to regrow.
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>>349847
>People don't really care about socializing because...it's not really needed. They have other outlets for that.
Absolute truth.
You will find the same kind of fun socialization on Twitch or Discord with party games like Jackbox, slightly-competitive nonsense like Amogus, or builder-type communities in Minecraft or Valheim. Fuck, GTA V roleplaying is just as (if not more) fun than any MMORPG I ever played.
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>>349980
>imagine something like GTA 6 online in VR; own your car, your house, a place in a virtual world. Do missions with real groups of friends also living in that world.
And of course you have to pay real money for all of your virtual stuff.
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>>349983
Nothing to be honest. I go in and out of certain MMOs but they don't keep me. Like the Classic WoW series. Both vanilla and BC I basically level up, do dungeons; then fall off the face of the planet. Mainly cause I find the gameplay loop beyond that horrible cause the community just isn't the same. Gw2, ESO, etc; they're all ones I've done the same. Now all these MMOs I went "hard" into them in the past. But past 5 years this has been how I play. I just don't invest as hard anymore cause I think that social aspect isn't really "there". I can make it be there for sure. Join a guild, do the whole discord thing. But idk it just doesn't feel the same to me. The gameplay loop needs to be really fun for me to do that and many games seem to struggle.

Fo76 is similar. The good thing about Fo76 though is that you just roam around exploring a big open world. Doing quests and shit. And you just find random passer bys. Wave to them, do some quests, do some good job emotes, then you go on your way. But the interaction feels really...natural. There's no long term social interactions because it's not that kind of game. And the endgame loop sucks ass. But those first like 60-100 hours are a blast.

I'm going to be playing New World when that releases and from what I've seen its gonna be like all the other MMOs. It honestly just looks like Gw2 to me. I'm sure I'll enjoy it, level up, explore the world; then I'll get bored at the endgame loop and quit.

I'm in the beta for Fractured (backer). And that one has potential. But it's still in development and population is low.

To be honest, and while I know this isn't "cool", but Palia is the next MMORPG I'm most excited for. At least what they're promising, they're making a MMO designed solely around social experiences and those calming experiences that you find social situations today. Exploring, fishing, farming, shit like that. It looks like a fantasy MMO version of an old school gmod/hl2dm RP server. So I'm excited.
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>>347570
This.
There is no way we can go back because the industry has become far too focus tested and corporatized. Developers dont go out and create games that they would want to play themselves. They get hired to follow the orders of some grand corporate strategy.

2005-2007 was still in that transitionary period where the games industry was really making a ton of money but a lot of pro-dev teams still had creative control over the games. The executives and shareholders weren't involved because they just saw games as toys.
>>
>>349847
Damn this hits hard. You should give a speech to the fags at GDC I'm not even kidding
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>>350414
>You just roam around exploring a big open world. Doing quests and shit. And you just find random passer bys. Wave to them, do some quests, do some good job emotes, then you go on your way.

That's pretty much what I'm chasing. Those fleeting moments where you briefly interact with someone.

Do you enjoy going onto Discord and such? I've done it a few times, but never really embrace it.

Palia looks like it's planning on scratching that itch, but it's not releasing for some time.
Considered any of the newer asian ones, like elyon,TL or lost ark?
>>
>>350414
>Palia
Yup. I long for an MMORPG that doesn't make people have to tell others to go outside the game for interaction.
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>>347501
same as any game based around crunching numbers and optimizing processes: you crunch numbers and optimize processes. It's not that fucking mysterious you retard.
>>
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>>349581
No, they'd stop playing the game because there are no trees
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>>350034
>>349847
this is basically why I play Eve.
out of all the MMOs on the market, it's the only oldschool one that
>does "massively multiplayer" right
>does "community" right
>has an actual huge universe with a mountain of lore, content n shit in it.
>still gives you complete freedom to do what you want, like Ragnarok Online did for example
without being a Theme-park MMO, Content Treadmill or a dead game.

Theme-park MMOs and the entire concept of them is awful.
Basically no-content released in 3~6 month cycles to trick crack-addicts into doing dailies and heavily-scripted copy-paste raids for 3-4 weeks so they'll be "ahead of the curve" for the next expansion (which they have to pay for, by the way)

Eve, along with Ragnarok and even FFXI does a fantastic job of going "ok here's this massive fucking universe full of lore n shit, you can even join the bad guys, scam or steal shit from people. Go do what you want".
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>>351013
>heavily-scripted
this is what i hate about WoW clones as an FFXI veteran.
Give the bosses a move-set and spell list and let it be random.
When you heavily script bosses or content it's predictable, boring and too easy to cheese.
and dont get me started on the retarded "DONT STAND IN THE RED CIRCLES!!" gameplay that WoW encouraged the rest of the genre to have.
Absolute awful dogshit gameplay.
If I wanted to play a jumping puzzle or "dont stand in X when Y happens" i'd go play Fall Guys
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>>350598
yeah i've tried the discord thing but idk. Discord has always felt disconnected for me in terms of socializing. Not sure why. In terms of those Asian games, I haven't really been hyped about any of them. Mainly because I always assume the worse in terms of a p2w structure when it comes form that region. Especially with the clusterfuck NCsoft did with Classic Aion. That being said, I am hearing good things about Lost Ark. So I may end up giving it a try when it releases.
>>
>>351013
>flowchart
hooooooo, that joke is accurate as fuck!
>>
>>347501
come and have fun with us in Tree Of Savior and find out
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>>349581
Except you're forgetting the most vital part, it's virtual and doesn't require an equivalent physical effort to obtain. You would need to have a system of bulwark guilds in place really early on. And even then, that just makes destroying the resource much better.
>>
MMORPG's are dead. Good fucking riddance I say.

As some other anons have already elaborated, the primary reason to play any MMO is obviously the people you play with. Those people have grown older and have other things to do now, while the younger generations have their own "culture" in which there's no place for MMOs. And that's without even mentioning the decline of the "gaming" industry as a whole.

So, with MMORPG's void of the most important reasons to play them, why would you even play them? A cycle that feeds upon itself until all the MMORPG's are dead.

That's life though, things are born and things die. Nothing to be done about it.
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>>347501
I just want an updated RuneScape with WASD movement
>>
UO boomers rise up
>>
I've decided to replay Rift
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>>347529
>Ragnarok Online
I love RO, played it for 7 years. But how would do you think it is the peak of the MMO genre? in what aspects?
I'm unironically curious
>>
>>353553
Blade and Soul 2
>>
>>351016
that's what I miss most about early TERA, aside from enrage timers to filter dpslets the bosses really felt like actual monsters, toward the end it turned into fixed mechanics at 70/50/30/10 percent and random i-frame checks in between to keep people from falling asleep
>>
https://youtu.be/ydy_HY37pWY


AAAAAAAAAAA IT STILL HURTS FUCK YOU MICROSHIT!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>359008
Peak soul.
Why did I never get to play this
>>
>>347501
mmorpgs are fun when you are playing with friends or a dedicated group of people. otherwise its boring asf and not worth it
>>
>>358206
main thing RO excelled at was complete freedom and it's the only MMO that did player vending right.
WoW and WoW-Clones are awful because they railroad you thru a series of hubs every 5-10 lvls where you just run generic "kill 5 boars" quests.
Absolutely awful dogshit gameplay.

RO you could go anywhere and kill anything you wanted.
Mages, Archers and Acolytes especially would get really creative with where they'd get exp. Water arrows on Greater Generals, Fire spells on immobile plant mobs, creative use of Firewall, Healing undead to death or straight up using resurrect or Ygg leaves to 1-shot undead mobs.

WoW clones stifle and quash any/all creativity.
YOU MUST LVL BY TURNING IN "kill 5 boars" quests, OR ELSE!
and dont even get me started on the awful "Holy Trinity" shit that WoW brought in.
>>
>>359123
Opposite.
Mmorpgs are the most boring multiplayer games to play with friends and the best to play solo.
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>>347501
MMORPGs are all about an adventure and community. Each player you interact with has a chance to make for an epic tale. Of course it's harder to do so nowadays, as zoomers tend to min/max more than the previous generations.
But there are other types of MMOs that you could try as well. Planetside 2 is a FPS MMO, For Honor is an action fighting MMO, and NBA 2k is a sport MMO. Just to name a few popular ones, really any genre can be mixed with MMOs, since MMOs are just multiplayer games with a few common features. Although if you ask any MMO fan what they are, you'll get vastly different answers.
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>>353798
YES YES YES
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>>359128
fair enough
great insight and post, anon; didn't quite expect an actual reply
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>>359152
>For Honor is an action fighting MMO
How? It's purely lobby based unless they added some kind of mode more like Gloria Victis, idk haven't played it in a few years.
>>
>>360169
There is that one mode where players are part of one of the factions, and each match effects the map for all players. There is also player leveling and loot, which are common to MMOs. I was just trying to make the argument that there are more than MMORPGs in the MMO genre, since it seemed like OP didn't like MMORPGs. I could have easily said something like Elsword or Dungeon Fighter Online.
>>
>>347501
MMOs are games for people who enjoy progression, they are not meant to simulate reality or to be immersive.
Take the most played MMOs of today, WoW and OSRS, they are massive grind fests, you grind slowly, enjoy the progression and think how powerful you will be when you reach a certain goal.
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>>352328
It's not a joke, those are actual things you can in eve.
>>
>>360201
Oh ok I see what you're saying. FH just doesn't have pve but now that you mentioned it, a For Honor MMO similar to Vindictus or Dragon's Nest hub worlds and pve instances sounds pretty cool if it keeps the pvp aspects.
>>
>>349181
This guy is right, OP. Have you ever played a late-server sandbox MMO? Players lay claim to every resource, strip mine it all and leave it that way. There is no amount of cajoling that will get players to invest actual work in a game space. If it’s not all carrot and no stick, they’ll either game the system or simply leave.
>>
>>349345
>He wants an online environment where everyone works together
So are you going to force them? People don’t work this way, in or out of real life. We cooperate when we have to, not because we want to.
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>>360989
>We cooperate when we have to, not because we want to.
By 'we' you mean sociopathic losers?
>>
>>360994
No, I mean human beings. We are not friends, we are in competition. For employment, for food, for bandwidth, for social status, for everything else we want or need in the span of a human lifetime. Humans work together well when they have a pressing need to cooperate that brings everyone on board, even if it is just the need to socialize, or the need to get a task done. Unfortunately as other Anons have said in the thread, the need to socialize has long since moved to social media, and tasks can be min-maxed for solo play with 15 minutes of build planning before you roll a character.

If you want people to cooperate and split the loot, which is the whole point of the excercise now that people don’t really socialize on MMOs, you have to give them a reason not to solo it and keep all of the loot for themselves, because that is objectively the superior option in yield.
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>>361002
Could've just said yes moron. Good job getting brainwashed by the globalists.
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>>361002
American education everyone
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>>349847
>And finally MMORPGs weren't nearly as big
I mean, this is a half-truth.

There are far less "casual" gamers in mmorpgs these days.
>>
>>351013
Isn’t Eve very expensive to play?
>>
>>364301
depends on the activity you plan to do, obviously you can't get into capital/battleships from the start, with minimal grinding and paying for your sub you can burn through cheap frigates or cruisers in pvp
it's only expensive if you fund it with plex or get powerful but expensive and not cost efficient faction/deadspace modules
>>
Microtransactions and bots killed MMOs.
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>>364301
Yes.
>>
>>347501 (OP)
>but without that, what if the players chop every tree down?
>Let them. Then have multiple simulation systems attached to it, where cutting down all trees cause an ecological disaster. Whoever has private forests, become rich. Players would have to start planting trees back in order to restore balance to nature. Then they learn their lesson and start putting up player-enforced policies on planting after chopping down trees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFNxJVTJleE

But regardless OP, you sound like you might enjoy Project Gorgon
>>
>>347501
Have you tried Haven&Hearth? It's got just about everything you mentioned.
Most resources are limited, but abundant since the world is huge (at least considering the small current playerbase); the survival is realistic and the fighting is original.
Its mainly focused on survival, i'd say, but it has some RPG elements like a magic system that uses your exp as "mana" and some dungeons.
I really like the game and wish more people played it...
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>>361002
LMFAO what the fuck, is this what happens in American schools, they turn you into ... this?
>>
Zero games that banks on player's character build like RO. I remember doing wacky strength priest build. I wish devs delete NPCs at this point and let players run the fucking kingdom.
>>
>>347501
Why dont you just play real life since you enjoy it so much.
>>
>>368886
You could/used to do some wacky shit in ToS. Don't know if its still like that. Very linear game though which is a shame, and p2w
>>
>>347501
Wakfu was exactly like what you're describing with how MMOs should be, in that game there were fully functioning ecosystems where it was possible to extinct mobs or completely wipe out a certain type of tree.
On top of that there was a political system where you could enable laws that would promote or discourage doing certain things like killing certain enemies or chopping down trees.
They've basically changed it to be impossible now which sucks cause it was super interesting and lead to a lot of drama and emergent gameplay.
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>>369245
Have seen the current kRO, you can't customize your stats anymore, You gain static stats on 4th jobs.
>>
It needs hunger system and maybe bathroom mechanics, monsters so big like MH you won't be able to solo it and takes forever to kill.
>>
>>359141
this! when my friends and i pick a new MMO we always end up skipping the lore and immediately start competing on who can reach max lvl first or who can get the best gear first.

it sucks the fun right out of it.
>>
>>347501
Your major problem isn't your own fault.

MMOs are a stagnant, borderline dead genre, only people who grew up in their golden age have a deep rooted nostalgia for the genre and have been buying into non-stop WOW clone garbage.

Like the most successful "new" mmo to come out in the last decade was a 15 year old version of WOW, its kind of pathetic.

The other problem is that people keep trying to generalize the MMO genre into Sandbox/Themepark, when the best MMOs are both at the same time, the true end game of a good MMO is sandbox PVP that is funded by rewarding themepark PVE
>>
>>347501
the fun in the mmo is generally not the actual intended game, it is the games within the game that people make for themselves.
like making stupidly over powered low level toons and picking some random area to battle it out with other overpowered low level toons for example.
>>
MMOs are social life simulators for fatties, forever alones, and neets. That’s why the gameplay being trash is irrelevant and why mmos that remove community features all die. Simple really.
>>
>>349847
i think so many people feel the same way as this guy that the moment any game brings back the sense and feel of community MMORPG's will flourish
>>
>>370022
One of the traps that I think a lot of developers have is hyper balance.

It creates that stagnant feeling that the game is too easily solved because everyone just knows numbers go up = good

You also have the chucklefuck who's been ruining WOW's loot systems over the years being the poster child of how not to develop loot and rewards in MMOs but every big name developer thinks that his RNG stat sticks are the best thing ever despite the fact it didn't work in D3 or WOW.

Really, what we need is someone to come along and create a truly next gen MMO, the last major innovation to the genre was WOW having seemless continents with no loading screens, only to squander that shit by focusing on gay ass 3 boss hallway rushes.

Also sandbox PVP needs to be the real end game, but propped up by a good PVE economy so dragonslayers still benefit from playing the game.
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>>347501
>Then they learn their lesson and start putting up player-enforced policies on planting after chopping down trees.
One time I cut down every single tree in a Minecraft server (it had a tight world border so the map was maybe 2000 by 2000 or something, this was like 2011) and didn't plant any back. Why? Fuck you that's why. I wanted to sow chaos for fun. What's your solution then big boy?





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