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>>
>>598954849
Because it makes a game about exploration a linear experience.
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>>598954849
Because it makes quests and traveling about nothing besides following the compass.
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>>598954939
fbpb
I dont mind if a game puts a generic region market to narrow my search to a specific area, but skyrim puts them smack bang on the objective, so its just a breadcrumbs experience.
>>
>>598954849
The Morrowind crowd misses the devs telling them exactly where to start and the exact path to follow. They appreciated the devs removing the need to explore simply obey.
Player agency isn't for everyone
>>
>>598954939
shut up retard
>>
>>598954849
Lazy game design
You basically just make some quest or something to bring 5 bear asses to some dude and some quest marker shows you where the bears are
Instead of telling the player to get him bear asses and then giving the player directions to find some bears
You automatically start playing the game looking more at the top of the screen where your quest markers are instead of understanding directions in the game world and looking at the scenery.
Part of a charm in Open world games is that traversing and finding things should be a challenge in of itself. If you are given a perfect GPS from the start of the game it makes the game play itself and you might aswell just make a movie then or the player might aswell watch someone else play the game for them.
>>
>>598954849
kills immersion and forces you to play compass/minimap instead of the game
>>
>>598954939
elder scrolls has always been a set of linear experiences no matter how open the world is
dungeon, kill, loot, repeat
don't reply with morrowind because the quests are all linear too
>>
>>598955276
Do you really play the game as a chore simulator? You do you but it is unusual.
>>
>>598954849
Fpbp
>>
>>598954939
Do you have to be told to explore by the devs? The marker has zero impact on exploration.
>>
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>>598955139
>>598955392
>linear
>>598954939
>linear
Do you even know what that term means in vidya?
>>
>>598955537
It's not really much of an adventure if you know exactly where to go and how to get there. Figuring shit out is fun, it's also good exercise for your brain. But normalfags don't want any of that. They just want everything to be baby mode and just press a button to win and get endorphines.
>>
>>598955537
nta, but skyrim's world is so bland and boring that going out and trying to find fun is infinitely harder than following the compass to the fun. There's nothing out in the wilderness except wildlife and hostile wildlife, maybe a bandit camp or a linear cave if you're lucky. It's almost as if this whole world wasn't sculpted with care by an actual development team, but instead cobbled together as a backdrop for the 800 repetetive sidequests that they apparently needed
>>
Its the GPS of gaming which none of you fucks leave the house without. Not sure why its such a surprise that something exists that gives you a direct way point to get there when its so fucking common in your every day life already. Do you know how pissed I would be if some fucker offered me five bucks to do something, but then gave me directions like "just head northwest, I hear thats where it is". Its convenient to have shit like this, what should be discussed is why they aren't allowing people to be able to turn it off in the settings. There is no issue with it existing.
>>
>>598955743
I never said linear so not sure why you are quoting me.
I was pointing out the lack of player agency with Morrowinds directions.
Some anons appreciate the removal of the need to explore and instead just be told what to do.
No shame in that. I just prefer more agency myself.
>>
>>598955987
Skyrim doesn't take place in modern times moron, your point literally goes in favor of the old quest system.
>>
>>598955830
I don't want baby mode
I want to be told where to start and the exact path to follow.

So which is it?
>>
>>598956215
>lack of player agency with Morrowinds directions.
Name one RPG or actually name one video game in which you have more player agency in terms of traversing the world and going from the quest giver to the point of interest and back.
1
UNO
>>
>>598955849
So you didn't play Skyrim. Got it
>>
>>598956409
>I don't want baby mode but i want baby mode
Ok
>>
>Turn off quest marks
>Problem solved
Why /v/tards are such whiny little bitches?
>>
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Every quest marker thread shows that that this board has contradictory elitists that are more casual than they think.
/v/'s has autists that think just because a quest marker is on screen that they have to make a straight line for it, ignoring the fact that players still have to find the best terrain to reach the destination themselves and fight through enemies or hazards.
Meanwhile, in games like Skyrim, most normalfags say that they ignore the quest marker and go on their own quests to explore interesting landmarks and find unique items in dungeons or camps.
>>
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>>598954849
Brain dead game design that 1) ruins any engagement by discouraging players from paying attention to the world and 2) makes the game play itself
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>>598955849
>skyrim's world is so bland and boring that going out and trying to find fun is infinitely harder than following the compass to the fun. There's nothing out in the wilderness except wildlife and hostile wildlife, maybe a bandit camp or a linear cave if you're lucky
This is literally every bethesda game ever made
>>
>>598956668
This bait is getting increasingly stale
>>
>>598956458
Which game has more agency than Morrowind?
Any that does not say start here and take this path with no other option
Some of us enjoy finding our own way in the world and do not think doing what we are told is the height of gameplay.
The devs made a world to explore so they should let us. I am aware some are not as fond of freeform exploration and simply wish to accomplish tasks.
They would be better off playing a MMO and leaving single player games alone.
>>
>>598956696
This. These people lambasted markers as killing player agency yet they're the only ones who feel like its existence restricts what do.
>>
>>598954849
its fine i guess, hating this is like hating concrete ramps for the disabled.
>>
>>598956826
>an arrow at the top of the screen to remind players of an objective = ignoring every other character, landmark, or path
Maybe you're just mentally handicapped and lack spacial awareness.
>>
>>598957274
It is as close as the old timers can get to being told what to do.
They are very big on compliance and doing what they are told.
>>
>>598956940
What you don't understand, or refuse to understand, is that Morrowind's journal teaches you about the world. By following the journal, you are actively paying attention to where you're going and learning where things are. If you understand the world and know where things are then you eventually don't need the journal. That knowledge you gain is a system of progression in itself, and it's facilitated by the journal.

Quest markers do not encourage learning in any way whatsoever. In fact it's the opposite, they encourage ignoring the world.

This is why an experienced Morrowind player can easily play Morrowind with very little of the journal, but an experienced Skyrim player will have a much, much harder time playing Skyrim without quest markers.
>>
>>598957274
If you're not an unfocused ADHD fuck then that's literally what you would need to do to finish a quest optimally.
>>
>>598954849
i started playing enderal recently just after finishing elden ring, and i had to mod out the quest markers and undiscovered locations from the map and compass. game is way more fun this way
>>
>>598954849
lazy game design
>>
>>598956940
>Any that does not say start here and take this path with no other option
Just because the directions given are to follow some road south and cross the bridge over Odai river and then go towards the foyada mamaea it doesnt mean you cannot just jump over the town wall behind the corner club or that you cant just levitate directly there or that you cant take some irrational ride with a silt strider to Vivec and then head a bit north and almisivi intervention and then recall to some other place.

Nothing like that exists in any video game I have ever played and I play vidya since the late eighties.
>>
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>>598954849
Because wandering around aimlessly is fucking fun, apparently.
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>>598958019
But that's wrong. Even the most casual games give optimal options to people who ignore direction markers and find their own ways to traverse the world.
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in the words of a Pathologic 2 dev
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>>598958263
Explain with some examples?
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>>598957778
Prefering the devs lay out the exact path to take is a perfectly valid opinion to have.
I am just glad it is not a widely held opinion.
I prefer the devs give the player the agency to find their own path.
>>
>>598958019
So you're just going to ignore players who take shortcuts through mountains and forests they saw on the map on their own volition? You're going to ignore the large amount of normalfags who take the scenic routes in open world games so that they can find something interesting?
>>
>>598954849
for long rpg type games eventually you just get into the habit of following your mini map towards the next quest marker, the rest of the game kind of disolves away and becomes pointless/soulless.
>>
>>598958160
A question
How do you know where to go without following the directions?
Encyclopedic knowledge of the game?
Keep an online map handy?
Just randomly enter locations hoping it is the right one?
>>
>>598954849
If game wants to be immersive it should make the player think in the same way you character would think, and consequently give the player access to the same information the character would have.
>>
>>598958379
Going through Red Rock Canyon or Quarry Junction instead of Primm in New Vegas.
>>
>>598958882
I played the game more than hundred times over the last 20 years. I know the island very well.
I forgot my mother birthday but I know where Chrysamere is.
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>>598954849
I never found much issue, since there is typically a fair amount of obstacles and minor locations you'll come across when on route to your marker. Having a marker pointing at your objective isn't linear when there is a mountain or a canyon in the way that you need to circumvent. It's more free than Morrowind instructions because it let's you choose your own path instead of following a set of rigid instructions.

While not good for specific locations or item spots in a dungeon, for pointing out general areas of interest n the open world it's fine and not to any real detriment of enjoyment.
>>
>>598958686
Speak for yourself and only yourself. I am sure there are anons who only wish to accomplish the task at hand and slavishly follow the marker. If they enjoy that then good for them.
There are those that fet quests and promptly ignore them. If they enjoy that good for them.
What the Bring back written directions crowd is trying to do is dictate others fun.
They should stop caring about how others play the game.
>>
>>598958379
The first time I played Skyrim I got to Ivarstead quickly by following the river and hills I saw on the map instead of taking the main road.
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>>598958991
I think we found the issue. The only way a new player could approximate you playing the game is to have a wikki with a map open at all times.
I am sure you would find this a distasteful act. It is the best option though. Seeing the location and kevitatingor jumping to a location spares a great deal of tedium.
It isn't like you will miss a random encounter along the way. Morrowind didn't have any. No real reason to not levitate/ jump everywhere.
>>
>>598958894
They did.
Here let me point it out on your map.
>>
>>598957778
That's only true if you autistically zero in on your marker 24/7, which no one with a healthy brain does.

If the thing is 500 miles away still, and you're just trying to find the right path along the road, the marker isn't doing anything to stop you from examining your pathway and surroundings.
>>
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>Quest marker points at location, it's alright.
>Quest marker decides to move and automatically telegraph a moving NPC where ever it goes or to a space between shelves for the exact copy of item you were supposed to take, mfw
>>
>>598954849
lol it looks like a basedjak
Too fucking much 4chan, I'm off to play vidya
>>
>>598959664
>>598959256
You know what's funny? Skyrim has lots of mountain roads that diverge and end up making players lost or take longer to get to their destinations if they don't read the signs at the intersections, yet /v/ likes to call it handhold-y. Meanwhile, the MorrowInd journal tells players which roads and landmarks to take all the way yet people consider it less handhold-y for some reason.
>>
>>598955987
>Its the GPS of gaming which none of you fucks leave the house without. Not sure why its such a surprise that something exists that gives you a direct way point to get there when its so fucking common in your every day life already.
This, also instead of traversing woods and ruins you should be able to just take the bus there.
>>
>>598959978
Yeah this is the drawback. Fine fir general locations, bad for individual thing or people.
>>
>>598956361
>Skyrim doesn't take place in modern times
But even in a medieval fantasy world you have a compass, a map, and people that tell you the significant locations on the map. What's the problem?
>>
>>598959978
I am forgiving if it points to a moving person. Searching for them adds nothing to the game soI make allowances for its unrealistic nature.
I agree on the stationary object in a dungeon though. I just switch to a different quest to retarfet the arrow
>>
>>598960874
I always reason Morrowinds mechanics as the Dungmer being a backwards people that can't read maps.
>>
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>>598960917
I would just play a game that doesn't have such design. Or in fact better combat and gameplay.
Like Dragon's Dogma. Kingdom Come. Subnautica.
>>
They are too retarded to disable them
>b-b-b-but how am i supposed to know where to go?!?!?!?!
There's a quest log and a map for it
>b-b-b-but i'm too retarded to use it and figure out stuff that way!
There's a mod that rewrites every quest log info to make it retard proof
>>
>>598954849
It "hides" bad game design in some cases.
>>
>>598955139
Funny enough, Morrowind is the reason why they added quest markers to future games because players were confused on where to go in the game.
>>
>>598954939
FPBP
REDDITARDS ON MELTDOWN
>>
>>598954939
If the game had them, it wasn't a game about ecploration to begin with. If the game let you turn them off and you're still mad, you should kill yourself. If you need a quest as your motivation to explore, seriously kill yourself.
>>
It all comes down to game design.
>>
>>598954849
Better question would be why /v/ complains about them even though you can simply turn them off. The argument "if it's there I have to use it" is pretty retarded. It's like saying because gta has trainers you can't play it without them
>>
>>598959694
I was the new player when wiki-pedia didnt exist.
I had 56K modem and was buying internet connection by the hour.
You think drawing maps and writing reminders and a log on paper is a joke?
You think I knew English properly in 2002?

The issue is that you are cancerous faggot, you are lazy bum, you eat shit, your thoughts are shit, your way of life is that of a scumbag.
You do not understand our world and thank God the time of faggot kikes like you living on very easy mode is comming to an end.
May God make you have and then not have.
>>
>>598961337
They certainly found their niche and I am glad you found games you enjoy.
I also hope Bethesda never shares your opinion
>>
>>598956934
How the fuck is that bait?
>>
>>598960228
Lmao same, I saw that fucking markiplier variant söyjak instead of the actual questmarker symbol.
>>
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>>598962130
>>
>>598961685
I know the dwemer puzzle box was an issue. The written directions were inefficient for both the dev and player so they got dropped.
>>
>>598954849
>NOOOOO NOOOO YOU CANT JUST HAND THE PERSON YOUR MAP AMD A PEN TO MARK THE LOCATION SO YOU KNOW WHERE TO GO YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW VAGUE DIRECTIONS
Oblivion will always be an improvement over morrowind
>>
>>598962118
I am sorry your childhood sucked I don't know why you are angry at me though. I didn't fuck your mom.
>>
>>598962486
>"You must find X, but I don't know where it is exactly."
>Quest Updated: Find X
>Marker points to the object exactly.

Fuck off retard
>>
>>598962091
>morrowind quest
>no quest markers so NPC has to describe where the thing you're looking for is, game expect you to be good at followingbdirections because games at the time are still made for men

>skyrim quest
>go get me 10 unique rat anuses that xan only be found in the cave of transitions
>where's the cave? Here, I'll mark it on your GPS. That's literally the only information you're getting from me

>UHHHH BRO U CAN JUST DISABLE DA GPS!
Fucking retard. Goddamn cretin. You absolute imbecile. I hope you die a slow a painful death. You utter fucking moron.
>>
>>598962308
What exactly am I supposed to be afraid of? Since they dropped the Morrowind written directions they have made 6 games without them There is not a hint they are going to take that step backwards towards Morrowinds written directions.
>>
>>598954849
literally anti-fun.
makes the game a set of repetitive tasks with no thinking necessary. might as well play whack-a-mole.
>>
>>598961847
Skyrim is about exploration and it has quest markers.
>>
>>2596233 this thread is already happening two doors down the hall with the exact same talking points, do you guys need attention so badly you have to shitpost the same thing in two threads at once?
>>
>>598962313
>dwemer puzzle box was an issue.
>>598961685
>players were confused on where to go in the game.
The call of duty audience was confused and the ever dumber mutts of USA in the test groups made the corporate shareholders support Todds philosophy of dumbing down and casualizing the games.
>>
>>598962492
Dont be sorry faggot kike. Be better.
>>
>>598962663
> Morrowind is made for men
No man in existence has ever asked for directions. It is simply not done.

Now show tits or GTFO
>>
>>598962642
>"You must find X, but I don't know where it is exactly
Don't recall anyone ever saying that when marking it on your map
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>I hate quest markers in The Witcher 3/Skyrim
Ok just turn them off.
>noooooooooooo if you do that then you won't know where to go and you'll just have to blindly run around the map and explore it yourself! That's bad design I won't get to see everything!
Elden Ring releases
>yoooooooooo this game is so good I love that it doesn't hold your hand with quest markers. You actually have to pay attention and its so fun when you accidentally stumble your way through a quest line or into a cave. Who cares if you miss things you're not entitled to seeing everything on your first playthrough anyway

What changed?
>>
>>598954849
Because we're not mouthbreathers.
>>
>>598954939
op in shambles, coom leaking out of his dickhole he calls mouth
>That thing on your wrist - it’s a convenience. It tells you where to go, what to do, dulls your brain.
>>
>>598962943
Me I didn't fuck your mon
You Be better
So you want me to fuck your mom?
>>
>nu/v/ is starting to slowly defend modern game cancer more and more
Man taste really is subjective. All the underages who grew up with the xbox 360/xbox one actually think that's how gaming should be done. At least I can laugh at them before they completely take over this board
>>
>>598962990
>Now show tits
Sorry but unlike you I don't suffer from gynaecomastia.
>>
>>598954849
just turn your brain off and press "walk forward" bro. very engaging
>>
>>598963174
Your feeble attempts at insults and your brain damaged ways of misinterpreting words are why you are such faggot and why you are cancer.
You got your curse.
>>
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>>598962729
>>
>>598963258
>All the underages who grew up with the xbox 360/xbox one actually think that's how gaming should be done
You haven't noticed all the cod, halo, and consolefag shill threads all these years?
>>
>>598963059
>game designed by Ubisoft tier fags that has no contextual clues in environment or event design to find quest objectives without a literal fucking arrow and path on the ground to go directly to them
versus
>game designed around environmental storytelling and contextual information gathering that rewards you consistently for being perceptive and paying attention
>>
>>598963295
Immunity dog protects me from your weak curses.
So am I fucking your mom or what?
>>
>>598954939
FPBP
>>
>>598963279
Then you should know no man will ever ask for directions. Thus Morrowind is the antithesis of a mans game.
It was designed for the female mind.
>>
>>598963508
devs have realized they can just quickly terrain morph a huge map full some random hills and shit, then copypaste crap all over it and call it a day. map and world design is hard, it takes actual talent. they've hit on the secret of cutting it out of the design process, which is a big victory for them I would think
>>
>>598955392
Elder Scrolls was always, first and foremost, about exploration. Map markers and fast travel kill exploration and them leaking into single player RPG's from WoW was a tragedy for the genre, it's as simple as that.
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>>598954849
One of the many deaths of game design. If you don't regularly play games made before this trend, don't >> me.
>>
@598964505
lol
>>
>>598964212
Its an ancient curse you kike rat. For kike rats like yourself. Nothing can protect you from it.
>>
>>598964493
How do they kill exploration? Unless you need the devs to tell you to explore they have zero impact on exploration.
If you need the devs to control you that much you have bigger issues than the marker.
>>
>>598962250
If the game was designed with markers in mind, it's not just gonna become Thief or Deus Ex just because you turn a UI element off, retard.
>>
>>598964683
Immunity dog protects against all curses
Womp womp ancient curse fag.
>>
>>598954849
no need to make anything intuitive or design accordingly; you can slap markers anywhere you want
instead of a newcomer who is exploring your character happens to know everything about everything
>>
>>598964715
>dungeons and points of interest are marked on your map and compass with no need to actually look for them yourself
>hurr how do they kill exploration xD
actual retard
>>
>>598963409
Of course I have, but I don't care about people talking about shitty new games, people have talked about shitty old games on here for years. It's people defending the shittiest decisions modern games make I can't stand. People legitimately defend microtransactions now "as long as they're cosmetic" and shit like that.
>>
I know /v/ loves to shit on ubisoft but AC Odyssey quest givers actually gave you directions so you could disable the map markers and still know where to go.
>>
>>598954849
I don't, but give me an option to turn them off. Kinda retarded that for Skyrim you need to go into the skyrimprefs ini to turn off the compass. I just like being able to get the lay of the land. Skyrim actually does give you the tools to find quest objectives without quest markers for the most part imo.
>>
>>598964910
it gets (You)s man. that's really all there is to it
>>
>>598964715
>How do they kill exploration?
Anon, look at this image and think to yourself how much your eyes are drawn to anything that isn't highlighted in yellow. It's the exact same thing on a smaller scale.
>>
>>598964865
> I will point out how the marker inhibits exploration ( the initial claim) by bringing up a different argument.
I would resort to moving the goal posts as well. Since the marker has zero affect on exploration.
>>
>>598965174
> Here is another unrelated point.
Just give up if you aren't going to try.
>>
>>598960354
>Skyrim has lots of mountain roads that diverge and end up making players lost or take longer to get to their destinations if they don't read the signs at the intersections

except that never happens because Skyrim has an extra layer of retard proofing in the form of the Clairvoyance spell, just in case the magic gps marker wasn't enough for you

you have to be on a whole other level of retarded to get lost in Skyrim. you have to be to retards what retards are to normal people.
>>
>>598965390
My point is that in a game that points very specifically to the goal, this puts your brain in a form of tunnel vision that immediately disregards anything that doesn't have a quest marker over it or in its direction. Play more games.
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>>598964853
You cant dispel such curse with some plebbit faggotry dog.
>>
>>598965615
The point you can just explore for explorations sake never even enters your mind does it?
If a concept that simple is that alien to you I don't know what to tell you.

Stick to Morrowind anon. New things scare and confuse old timers so stay in your comfort zone.
>>
>>598965693
But immunity dog already has.
Ancient curse 0
Immunity dog 1
>>
>>598966163
.
>>
>>598966032
I think you're dodging the issue of how a waypoint in a supposedly open game isn't a bad idea. sure, I can just wander around the open world (until I realize it's pointless), but how does this change the fact that questing/story don't have this supposed strength of the game built into it?
>>
>>598966032
>The point you can just explore for explorations sake never even enters your mind does it?
We can do both, but putting me on a treadmill to beeline straight to the objective is fucking boring and mindless and is vastly inferior to the way quests used to be designed as a standard in gaming.
>Stick to Morrowind anon.
Only TES game I touched for a few hours is Daggerfall.
>New things scare and confuse old timers so stay in your comfort zone.
I'm 25, and I'm sorry you can't get over your slavish adherence to the garbage of nu-game design.
>>
>>598966257
Immunity dog even stopped your new curse from even appearing
Lol at your impotence in the face if based immunity dog.
Whoever you think backs the ancient curse is a punk .
>>
>>598961847
>If the game let you turn them off and you're still mad, you should kill yourself.

If a game has them then it was designed and playtested with them enabled. That mean quests will not be written with enough detail to follow them without markers.
>>
>>598966492
.
>>
>>598966463
I have one point.
The marker has zero impact in exploration.
I would ask you how but you have shown you want to talk about anything but the singular point Markers have zero impact on exploration.
>>
>>598966568
Punked again.
What a weak ass bitch of a curse backer.
>>
>>598966686
1. Exploration can and has been an engaging aspect of quests historically in game design.
2. UI markers that point to the next step of the quests does away with any element of exploration by the nature of its own existence.
It's very simple.
>>
>>598966686
that was my first reply to you. the marker has one effect on exploration: by utterly nullifying it in relation to your current goal or objective. if my current goal is to find some guy or some place, and there's just a huge waypoint on it, then why even have the game be open world? just make a big valley between here and there, like a far cry 1 style map
>>
>>598954849
Elden Ring literally just proved why not having these is a good thing. You get lost in the world, you explore, you look around, you're admiring the scenery, you become immersed in the world.

If all you do for 80% of your game time is stare at the compass and the map marker, beelining towards it with zero consideration for terrain, it's a mindless, dull experience.

>Durr so just ignore/disable them
Anybody who says this has not tried playing Skyrim without them.

>"I need you to go to Rorikstead and..."
>No compass directions
>No landmark connections
>It's just "go to Rorikstead"

Now, assuming you don't have 3000 hours of coom experience in Skyrim, you have no fucking clue where Rorikstead is.
>>
>>598962091
>why /v/ complains about them even though you can simply turn them off
Because in games that feature them the devs always get lazy and design the quests around them.

Games without quest markers are designed so that you can reasonably figure out what to do from conversations, in-game lore books, signs etc.
Games with quest markers just expect you to follow the marker so if it's disabled your only chance is randomly stumbling upon the objective.
>>
>>598954849
They're a shallow substitute for memorable, visually distinct locations and immersive clues, maps or written directions for where to find them or how to reach them. To be fair though that shit takes a lot of effort, so why bother when you can just slap a quest marker on draugr-infested-dungeon #24 and call it a day.
>>
>>598966493
Hence, not about exploration.
Why do you need exact details?
It's about the experience and irl being sent on a quest is usually for something lost, like the holy grail. Just talk to every NPC, wander every road, delve every cave, look under every rock, and search every forest. It's about exploration!
>>
>>598966782
.
>>
>>598967341
That's not exploring, that's mindlessly wandering. This is like calling walking and hiking the same thing. There's a distinct difference between the two activities.
>>
>>598967263
>They're a shallow substitute for memorable, visually distinct locations and immersive clues, maps or written directions for where to find them or how to reach them.
Memorable is a good word. I can barely remember any quests in Skyrim or Witcher 3 because they all boil down to "follow the quest marker, kill enemies, collect item". Use bat vision in the case of W3. The lore around the item and the location and the enemies becomes interchangable when none of it matters in terms of the gameplay required to complete the tasks.

If you had to figure out what to do on your own you actually remember it as the quest where X had robbed Y and taken the dagger and hidden in the cave under the tall tree or whatever.
>>
>>598966969
Two random unrelated points is not the rebuttal you think it is
>>
>>598967258
>Games with quest markers just expect you to follow the marker so if it's disabled your only chance is randomly stumbling upon the objective.
Zoomer retards in these threads act like this is just how all games were before quest markers.
>>
>>598962250
Morrowind: I need you to steal a diamond from this chick. Her house is at the end of the main road in the merchant district, next to the clothier's shop.
>You arrive. There's 3 different ways to steal a diamond.

Skyrim: I need you to steal a diamond from this chick. *quest marker appears*
>You arrive. The diamond is in a specific box.
>>
>>598967341
>Why do you need exact details?
If the quest is designed around a literal GPS marker pointing you to the exact spot down to the millimeter then you can't say it isn't designed around the player knowing exact details of the location.

If you turn it off you're not getting a quest designed to be played without a GPS marker. You're getting a quest designed around a GPS marker but without the GPS marker.
>>
>>598967547
Those 2 points are sequential, you zoomer retard. I hope you don't buy games. Someone like you, your purchasing power actively makes the medium worse.
>>
>>598966032
>The point you can just explore for explorations sake never even enters your mind does it?
>modern games designed around quest markers
>anything to explore not under a quest marker
There is no contextual or nonlinear story design baked into a modern "open world" experience. You climb to the top of a mountain and find nothing. You follow a river and find nothing. You go down an alley and you find nothing. The most common thing to find through "exploration" is a map boundary error not caught in QA testing.

The open world sandbox has replaced hub/menu based game designs, but not their gameplay or game development footprint.
>>
>>598967095
So you need the devs to tell you to explore Fair enough.
A great many do not need the devs hand on the back of their head guiding them.

To each his own. I am glad they have given the player more agency to find their own path.
>>
>>598967762
Lazy bait. Go outside and have sex or lift weights or something.
>>
>>598967126
In fairness ER has like half-dozen quests if you can even call them that and it even went too far in the opposite direction by not giving you markers and at most very little directions so you can only complete them if you randomly stumble upon them or by reading it on some wiki.
Only really works for ER cause the side-quests are very far from the focus of the game
>>
>>598967762
>So you need the devs to tell you to explore Fair enough.
If I have a giant quest marker above where I'm supposed to go, and now know the location of the next step, me going anywhere else in an attempt to chase this quest is not exploring, it's me just ignoring the quest. And unlike yourself, I'm not enough of a dribbler to convince myself I'm still engaging with it.
>>
>>598958342
what pretentious garbage is this
>>
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>quest in oblivion to kill some nord guy hiding out in a camp in the mountains
>quest marker appears on him
>99% of players will approach from the south with a giant mountain in the way
>most people will just spam jump up the side of the mountain because it works and there doesn't appear to be any other way up there
>once you reach the camp you see there was a path leading behind it you couldn't possibly have known about
This is what quest markers incentivize, developer and player laziness. Devs nor players give a shit about using the world that was built for them.
>>
>>598967394
Immunity dog has gone from humping your curse sorces leg to full on penetration.
You may want to seek immunity dogs assistance because you are pissing off someone who drops curses on the unprotected.
>>
>>598967762
yeah sorry I forgot about the sheer joy of going off the beaten path to discover my 99th copypasted dungeon that has no effect on the game. guess I just can't appreciate true Exploration(tm)
>>
>>598967762
You fucking love this strawman don't you? You must've posted it 100+ times by now.
>>
>>598967693
Yes you put them in sequential order. They are still unrelated.
>>
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>>598968021
This explorer faq is in denial and tries to make radiant quests interesting by larping the shit out of everything, cause the quests themselves don't have anything meaningful.
>>
>>598968152
How are they unrelated?
>>
>>598955392
You've never played morrowind. putting aside the fact that there are quests which have different outcomes, it has no quest markers, you were given verbal direction (which you could refer to in your journal) and had to pay attention to the world (which was built around this system with simple yet distinguishable landmarks) to navigate.
>>
>>598968047
>players are lazy if they take their own initiative to explore and get to the destination the best way instead of following the road
???
>>
>>598967713
So you need the devs to tell you a story to get you to explore?
I am glad the devs cater to those with more initiative.
>>
>>598963258
>getting upset that people don't mind a direction mechanic
Boohoo, nigger.
>>
Playing games with quest markers just feels so mindless and shallow. Its like I can feel my IQ points dropping while playing.

>but you can disable them!
And then i dont know where to go because the game was designed with them in mind.
>>
>>598968021
You truly don't understand doing something without the devs
permission do you?

Not everyone shares your lack of intellectual curiosity.
>>
>>598954849
it literally just points you to a location on your map. You can turn it off if you want, however you might need to look at the map afterwards.
Morrowind couldnt have it.
>>
>>598968373
It's obvious the intended route isn't slowly and glitchily jumping up the side of the mountain, but who the fuck is going to look for a path when the quest marker is an inch from your character on the map and you can't even see any other way? Of course there's also the problem of Bethesda allowing you to do this shitty mountain climbing jump in the first place, but the point is the quest marker is just turning you into a drone.
>heh, thats just you kid, I'm a true free thinking individual who makes his own path to the quest marker
No one can fucking tell me if they did that quest in Oblivion they didn't just jump up the mountain.
>>
>>598968065
> If the devs don't pat me on the head I did not do good.
Apparently Bethesda games are not for you.
>>
>>598968528
they are literally market on your map.
>>
>>598968403
>heh, you need a gameplay loop in your videogame?
yeah retard
>>
I prefer the Daggerfall approach to leading players around. It makes zero sense that I somehow know where every quest-relevant NPC is at the moment when I need to know, or that I somehow know exactly where the item I need right now is located.
>>
>>598968047
>>most people will just spam jump up the side of the mountain because it works and there doesn't appear to be any other way up there
When? Give an example
>>
>>598968621
>>598968403
>>598968373
>>598967762
>this same anon who posts zoomer cringe bait in every single quest marker thread
What's his endgame, bros? Is he just the marketing intern for Ubisoft or something?
>>
>>598968130
When someone can rebut it I will stop.
It usually evokes hissyfits and strawmen.
Like it did this theead.
>>
>>598968228
One us about exploration and one is about quest design.
Those are unrelated.
>>
even with waypoints its still possible to be immersed, playing oblivion and not using what the game gives you is rather rewarding. Printed out a map and marked down my own dungeons i've been too and what might be in them. THough the gameplay needs much to be desired
>>
>>598968061
.
>>
>>598968882
>multiple people can't disagree with me! samefag!
I'm the third reply in your post. Calm down.
>>
>>598968975
Exploration can be an element of a quest. Disagree?
>>
>>598968893
Kek it IS a strawman you hypocrite schizo. Take your meds it's clouding your judgement
>>
>>598963508
>environmental storytelling
if you are talking about elden ring then kek lmao.
>>
>>598968882
Only 3 are me.
Also
Who are you talking to? Are you going to start samefagging again?
>>
>>598969085
If that is true, there's so little difference between you that you guys might as well both work for Ubisoft or Bethesda's marketing team and thus deserve maltreatment and abuse.
>>
>>598969230
>I'm samefagging, samefag
The ABSOLUTE STATE of a quest marker-anon's iq.
>>
>>598968728
>who the fuck is going to look for a path when the quest marker is an inch from your character on the map and you can't even see any other way?
Why are you ignoring that structures and geography exist? You have yet to name an instance where "traveling in a straight light to the marker" actually happens with little player input.
>>
>>598969005
Immunity dog has informed me has "finished" snd it will take a minute before he is ready to continue the humping.
Be kind and give him the courtesy or he will go in Ruff next time.
His words.
>>
>>598969260
If you believe that, its your problem. If you think you're arguing with shills then don't reply.
>>
>>598969429
May God make you have and then not have.
>>
>>598969085
He is going to accuse one of us of being Romainian soon.
It is his go to coping mechanism.
>>
>>598969550
No, the shill narratives need to be rooted out wherever it shows up.
>>
>>598963059
I don't think ER's map is all that great, but one of the things it does really well is using the environment to show you your next destination. Most Legacy Dungeons are major landmarks in their respective region and can be seen from a large distance. In cases where Legacy Dungeon can't be seen it's placement is intuitive, like Volcano Manor being at the top of Gelmir, so you will eventually end up there while exploring that region. It does cheat a little with statues and phantoms that lead you to some catacombs, but there are still enough of them that you are supposed to simply stumble upon.
>>
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>>598955987
>>598956849
Believe it or not, traveling somewhere in real life and playing a video game are different things entirely. Of course I want a GPS in real life where I have to be somewhere by a certain time and gas costs money. In open world games, traveling between points should be the part that is fun. It shouldn't feel like my commute to fucking work.
>>
>>598969151
Asking how the marker affects exploration is a strawman?
Learn what words mean before you use them.
>>
>>598968040
>filtered before even finding out about the game
a new record. Congratulations
>>
>>598968047
>most people will just spam jump up the side of the mountain because it works and there doesn't appear to be any other way up there
>once you reach the camp you see there was a path leading behind it you couldn't possibly have known about
Name when this has ever happened. Every TES game I've played has clear roads which are somewhat longer than risking going through a hazardous forest or steep mountains.
>>
>>598969552
God loves me so there is that working in my favor.
>>
>>598969810
You've been informed numerous times itt alone and there are many threads like this one every week. You ignoring it just gives other anons an excuse to continuously draw from their experience to counter your lazy dev dogma.
>>
>>598968040
Thanks for bringing that post to my attention. That game is now in the backlog.
>>
>>598969925
There's no indication there's a path that leads to the camp, or that the camp is even connected to a path. All you see is a mountain and your quest marker on top of it. If you actually spent the time "exploring" for the path it'd take you like 15-20 minutes to find when you could've just glitch jumped your way up the mountain cause the quest marker is right fucking there.
>>
>>598970067
Lets go with the strongest one you have seen so far.
Every one I have seen has been weak or arguing something else.

So take your time and find the absolute strongest case you have seen and I will refute it.

Aaaand go
>>
>>598969949
see>>598969552
>>
The problem with quest markers are not the markers themselves but the way the quests are designed. Quests that are simply >Go to X and Find Y should not require a marker if the game has an actually useful map system or way that players can find information for themselves.

When that lad in Riverwood wants you to find his claw, instead of putting a little marker over it's location, he, or other NPCs, could mention that many thieves tend to hang around Bleak Falls Barrow, the big fucking dungeon right nearby.

Maybe, if you have the quest, it'll inspire other bandits to make comments like "heard X had the gold claw in bleak falls barrow" or maybe they spawn with notes with information about the claw.

Players finding their own information and acting on that will always be more rewarding that >Go to Point A then B then C

There is a difference between "Open" and "Free." Skyrim is an Open game, because you can do mostly anything in any order. But it's not a Free game, because all of those things are fairly linear in how you have to approach them.

We need more Free Quests- quests where meeting the objective is up to the player.
>>
>>598970482
Still loved.
Gods love 1
Your curse 0
>>
>>598969871
>means i don't have to play snarky jank slav shit
thank fuck for that, dodged a bullet
>>
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>>598968047
>calls people lazy and stupid for not exploring
>was too lazy and stupid to find the through Bruma and Gnoll Mountain
Every fucking time with you faggots. You rant about players following a marker supposedly not able to explore even though people who don't mind markers say they travel off the beaten path to explore all the time. Yet the mere existence of a quest marker makes staunch anti-marker fags you braindead and unwilling to explore.
>>
>>598970408
No, we've been over this. Learn to read
>You ignoring it
But then if you could read, you wouldn't be arguing in favor of quest markers in the first place.
>>
>>598969810
>I like the directions because it makes you engage with the world more and you pay attention, plus quest markers incentivize braindead gameplay where you can easily just beeline to objectives with zero thought or effort, and they antithesize exploration because they're encouraging you to follow the easy peasy marker, also it's impossible to get lost when you have a marker and getting lost can lead to a lot of great discoveries in games with no markers
>um so you're saying you need to be told exactly where to go?? you have to be TOLD to explore??
It's a strawman you dumbass ESL schizo. Seriously take your meds before you slit your wrists to escape having Morrowind in your thoughts 24/7 rent free
>>
>>598967552
its truly bizarre. Its like their small brains cant even comprehend the concept of not being told explicitly where to go. Thats why the all keep parroting the same "lmao just turn them off bro" retardation
>>
>>598970921
see >>598970323
retard
>>
>>598954849
it's lazy
>>
>>598970776
filtered
>>
>>598970650
see>>598969552
>>
>>598971074
I remember that quest and found that path. I don't know where you started from but your admission that there was indeed a path to find and follow just proves your point wrong.
>>
>>598954849
>flesh out dialogue tree and do extensive error checking on all NPC messages
>Add distinct geographic landmarks for the player to orient themselves
>Create memorable environments and characters that the player remembers when they need to seek them out
>Possibly add some form of diegetic map for the player to peruse

OR

>Add a quest marker that points to the entity you need to collect/kill
>Add horse testicle physics
>Don't make a fun game
>Don't pass Go
>Do not collect 200$
>>
>>598970921
morrowind
>your next target is havilstein hoar-blood. he's hiding out on gnoll mountain, a camp somewhere east of bruma. perhaps someone there can tell you how to get there.
>gnoll mountain? yea I know it. you'll want to follow the path east out of bruma and go north at the first fork. keep following the path until it forks again and then go south. follow that path and you'll arrive at the camp on gnoll mountain.
oblivion
>your next target is havilstein hoar-blood. here's the quest marker
>...
Hm........
>>
>>598970408
Quest markers are a crutch to take linear game design into a false openworld, purely because "it's openworld" is a marketing darling. The same game with the same gameplay, but made 10 years ago, would be hub or level based. These games have nothing in them not under a quest marker. Exploration is not part of their core game design, as going to a place before getting a quest reason has no game loop so no gameplay.

Bethesda has devolved into this, as being shitty and accessible to the lowest common denominator go hand in hand, leading to games like Fallout76 where even without an overarching narrative the whole "open world" is structured around throwaway quest into resource gathering location and the majority of the map is empty and contentless.

Ubisoft has simply taken the game format of the First ass assins creed and bloated it into an open world, but failed to fill in that open world to justify itself or actually provide any interesting gameloop unique to open world games like nonlinear or multi solution story telling. Rocking up to a stronghold location on odyssey and technically having free rein to do what you want to take out the guards (but no reason to even bother with stealth anymore as that game loop directly contradicts the XP and bountyhunter farming sub systems) doesn't change the fact the "open world" to get from point A of the daily login reward store to the point B of a quest target is largely empty and exploration has no core gameloop tied to it.

Open world has just replaced faster, more concise presentation in a middleware type of game design. Real open world that can be played without quest markers takes time to develop and skill to execute. So they just don't, safe in the knowledge they'll be defended by contrarian faggots.
>>
>>598970958
As expected you could not find a strong enough point to defend.
Not surprising because it is really hard to show how the marker affects exploration when you can just ignore everything and explore.
>>
>>598971074
>>598968047
>"REEE quest markers don't make you explore!"
>didn't use the path to the objective because he didn't want to explore
>>
>>598971671
Now see, your post is made seemingly in earnest to further a discussion, but that poster, if he replies, will say one of the following
>exploration and quest design are two different things, try again
or
>sorry you need the dev to tell you how to explore
There will be no earnest discussion here.
>>
>>598970964
Not sure what point you are trying to make.
Not entirely sure you do either

It would appear we are at the hissyfit portion of the thread.
>>
>>598971117
Gods love 2
Your curse 0
>>
>>598971861
I'm not answering that because you'll ignore any real answer anyway. You don't deserve a real answer, just maltreatment and abuse, which I already said. You're not very good at reading, are you, QMfag?
>>
>>598955737
If you turn off the marker it becomes impossible to find your target because you are not given any directions at all. "Just turn it off" doesn't fucking work in open world games you stupid cunt. This isn't Thi4f or Dishonored.
>>
>>598971861
>>598971895
No one is saying exploration is literally impossible without quest markers.
Tell me, what is INCENTIVIZES exploration?
Is it
A. Following directions that require you to look for landmarks, paths, sign posts, caves, towns, etc that are mentioned to you
B. A quest marker appearing
>>598972250
Aww he can't think of an argument after his strawman was destroyed. Seems you're the one throwing the hissyfit little guy
>>
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Imagine
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>>598972143
you smugly said it's fine that "open world" games built to this standard have no exploration loop right here >>598968403 so your "that's a good question" tier response to avoid addressing the fact it can't be deboonked is a bit suspect m8.
>>
>>598954939
So turn it off then dumbass
>>
>>598972143
Glad you saw the flaw in the argument so I did not have to reply.
He gets mad when I do so you take the heat for awhile.
>>
>>598972562
>>598972356
>>
>>598972340
see>>598969552
>>
>>598972625
Boohoo
>>
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>>598972847
Games like Skyrim are unplayable without quest markers and gps arrow
>>
>>598972348
I didn't expect you to try. We both know the argument should be The marker is detrimental to quest design but ist isn't as catchy.
Tieing it to exploration was a mistake you can't back away from. Or defend.
>>
>>598972562
>devs give you a marker instead of written directions
>lol just turn the marker off then
fucking nigger brainrot
>>
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>>598972542
>>
>>598973017
No they aren’t
>>
>>598972374
I am glad you finally accepted the obvious fact I am correct.
>>
>>598973026
You're literally mentally ill. If people said it was detrimental to quest design you'd just ignore it or say the same shit or come up with some new strawman.
>>
>>598969801
If anything travelling irl makes sense because you can smell the air, feel the wind, unironically tou h grass and feel your surroundings, feel invigorated from the light excercise, etc.
"Exploration" in video games is a fucking joke. Hold down W while you look at some shitty copypasted polygon renders. Open world games are a fucking joke.
>>
>>598973026
>Tieing it to exploration was a mistake you can't back away from. Or defend.
It's easy to have this perception when you aren't literate enough to engage the material, but you're a QMfag, so I know you can't read.
>>
>>598973054
You fags get mad over fucking anything
>wahh the devs didn’t give me directions
>wahh the devs made me use markers
>wahh the devs left a single pixel off color so I’m gonna cry about to other fags on a pool foreclosure website
>>
>>598954939
you can ignore it, retard
>>
>>598972562
Should be the opposite. You have to opt in to baby mode where all achievements are turned off, all secrets are shown on the map, all quests have a giant arrow pointing you directly where you need to be, dialog is rewritten so a 3 year old can understand it, enemies die in 1 hit and do no damage, shops sell all items for free
That about covers it for your personalized babymode
>>
>>598973121
Skyrims quests were made around gps arrow and quest markers.
You can mod in some porn waifu and play home jerk of but its not playable as a role playing game without the gps arrow and quest markers. The quest givers and journal; and everything else dont give you information needed to complete the quests.


May your tribe and bloodline perish filthy kike.
>>
>>598972643
God will still love me no matter how many times you quote it.
Even if I stop responding God will still love me so go ahead and get the last word. I will allow it.
>>
>>598973318
Yeah, I'm mad that illiterate retards like you buy bad games and make these design shortcuts into full trends.
>>
>>598973017
I can explore just fine so I am good.
>>
>>598962858
>ever dumber

lmao you can't even speak properly you ESL nigger
>>
>>598971553
>3 people play morrowwind for the first time
>They all do the exact same thing the exact same way
>3 people play oblivion for the first time
>Everyone takes completely different routes based on what they think will be the fastest route.

B-but you didn't explore!
>>
>>598973524
How did I make it retard?
>>
>>598968318
>putting aside the fact that there are quests which have different outcomes
obviously I'm talking about every quest that isn't picking your favorite house
>>
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>>598973598
>3 people play daggerfall for the first time
>they all get filtered in privateer's hold
>>
>>598973227
I haven't responded to anyone who has not responded to me.
I made the point the marker has no effect on exploration.
If you want to debate a different point go ahead. Just stop quoting me.
>>
>>598972562
Retard
>>
>>598973598
>>They all do the exact same thing the exact same way
When that way is more engaging and integrates the text with the topography of the game world than any beeline method toward the icon on screen, it's not necessarily worse.
>>
>>598973258
Hissyfits aren't arguments.
>>
>>598973598
>people play Morrowind for the first time, most of them will walk to Balmora.
>people play Oblivion the first time, all of them spend the first half hour or so in a linear dungeon.
>>
>>598973359
>>598972356
>>
>>598973636
>economically illiterate as well
Can QMfags get ANY lower?
>>
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>>598973598
>ask the Morrowind players what they remember about following the directions
>well I got lost and found a cave but got walloped by some bandits inside or something, then I passed a town, entered, and found a new quest and did that and ended up over there and wait... what quest was I supposed to be doing again?
>ask the Oblivion players what they remember about the run to the quest marker
>uh... it was green... and there were trees... I think I went into a cave but there wasn't really anything in there apart from some goblins and like 40 gold
>>
>>598973538
You can pretend to explore, like in Cyberpunk2077.
Its meaningless.
>>598973449
God hates faggots.
>>598973597
Focus on the semantics dumb faggot. Thats the only straw you can gasp at.
The only ESL relevant to /v/ is pic related.
>>
>>598973880
You don't have arguments. You receive good faith arguments by anons who obviously care about games just for you to ignore it all and respond with bad faith insults. And I'm not giving you any good faith arguments. I'm just pointing out that you're retarded, that you can't read, that you don't play video games, etc. You demonstrate trouble keeping up with that so I need to spell it out for you like it's a quest marker.
>>
>>598973876
>When that way is engaging.
It's not the case when Mortowind almost always has you following whatever the main road to your location is.
>>
>>598974098
How did the Oblivion player find a cave while fast travelling to the town next to the marker?
>>
>>598974098
>Ask the direction fag what they remember most fondly about the game.
>It's when they didn't follow directions.
>>
>>598974098
You just described the exact same experience in both games but gave the Oblivion one a bad spin.
>>
>>598974098
Pretty much this
>dude the oblivion players got 3 mind numbing experiences and the morrowind players only got 1 engaging one! 3 is bigger than 1 so quest markers clearly win
It's like arguing with children
>>598974549
That's the thing, they're engaging while you're following them but you also feel more inclined to get distracted since you don't have an omnipotent reminder of where your next objective is constantly.
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>>598974394
I would admit defeat if I were you as well
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>>598974748
You can't stumble upon towns in Oblivion, they're all marked on the map. There are settlements that aren't, but they usually don't have any quests or really anything to do in them. There's the daedric shrines but they're all arbitrarily level gated. I'm also clearly bringing up the level scaling as adding to the whole monotonous, samey feel to everything. The Morrowind player gets wrecked when he enters a dungeon so he ignores it or remembers to come back later, the Oblivion player stomps everything in the dungeon and finds a lockpick, petty soul gem (petty), and 40 gold, and barely even remembers anything about the cave.
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>>598973086
>Uh I'm the other retard
>still not addressing the argument like you said you wanted to if calmer heads could just prevail
If you accept you can't address any of the points brought against faux open world design you're admitting you're just here to shitpost and not arguing in good faith like you pretended.

Exploration is a game loop. Most currently made "open world" games do not have an exploration game loop. Overreliance on quest markers due to having an unrealized open world is indicative of a faux openworld game.
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>>598975290
Was the town of invisible people marked?
I honestly don't recall.
What about Hackdirt?
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>>598975192
>I would admit defeat if I were you as well
Making up power fantasies is exactly what a QMfag would want to do, so it isn't surprising. What would surprise me is if Ubisoft actually pays people as dumb as you, so enlighten me.
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>>598975290
Morrowwind has the exact same problem There's nothing memorable about 90% of minor areas. You come back later snd find it was too late and nothing in the cave has any value.
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>>598975706
No, neither were. No settlements are in the base game (as soon as you start.)
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>>598954849
Because you never learn the name of a place until these disappear.
It's annoying to have to learn it, yes, but it has benefits in you actually using your brain for once to learn the place you are exploring. Over time you'll learn to associate names in quests with ideas of what sort of thing you have to face and the character of the place.
You just don't get that with place names in games with quest markers.

It's a tiny dumb detail that really impacts world engagement. I only noticed that after Elden Ring did that, until they patched some things in. Suddenly I had to remember what names actually meant on a deeper level much faster than I normally would.

Games need a "no marker" option I think. I know most people are not like me with that regard and that's fine too.
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>>598975383
I don't think you understood that post I actually did make because most of what you say in this one is agreeable.
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>>598975383
You are arguing with two anons I am marker exploration guy. The one you quoted is a different anon.

I think that is why you think you are talking to one schizo. If it helps I only talk about markers don't affect exploration. If it isn't that it is the other anon.
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if you like this sort of open world game design, you're getting the games you deserve. if you don't, you know better and don't waste your time on them. everyone's a winner
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>>598975889
the point many have made is that simply being able to toggle off the markers doesn't really help, because the game wasn't really designed around having you explore around for the locations involved. toggling off a marker won't add more interesting NPC dialogue about where things might be found, rumors related to quests, etc. etc. It's more of a fundamental design problem, or at least a sort of incongruity, like why have all this supposed freedom only to draw a big X on a map and say "but really, when you're done fucking around and are ready to get serious, just go here"
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>>598976152
I actually enjoy getting totally lost in games like Skyrim. You think it would be annoying, but it just adds mystique to the exploration. Not knowing where you are affects how you make decisions, especially with combat. And you have to take the risk of venturing into places with strong enemies.
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>>598976152
Technically yes, but I would like for games to get better and that necessitates less reliance on quest markers.
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>>598976152
I think the written direction fan is mad other anons didn't have to go through that.
He wants it changed so everyone has to suffer like he did.

It isn't fair but we should be thankful for those that beta tested the industry back in the dark age of gaming.
Their sacrifice should not be forgotten.
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>>598975851
>There's nothing memorable about 90% of minor areas
True, but the other ways the game is designed helps a lot more with this than in Oblivion.
>You come back later snd find it was too late and nothing in the cave has any value
Well that really just depends on how much later you come back. There's nothing saying you have to come back after 5 levels, 10 levels, 20 levels, etc. It's up to you and your character. If you come back so late it's not worth it, so what? There are going to be times where you came back to a dungeon and it WAS worth it. They can't perfectly tune the game so every experience you have is going to be overtly positive/gainful (that leads to stuff like Oblivion where the experience ends up feeling milquetoast overall), but they certainly tried and for a lot of people it works really well. Plus there's still a lot of leveled loot in Morrowind so something like a smuggler cave can and usually will contain something like grand soul gems or expensive alcohol which are still useful at higher levels. If you're really powerful, have Azura's star, full orcish armor, and all this cool shit, then smuggler caves are sort of behind you at that point anyway. Eventually Morrowind can become a complete cakewalk where nothing can challenge you but at that point I just stop playing or restart the game as a new character. It's not like TES games have hard endings.
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>>598976425
>the point many have made is that simply being able to toggle off the markers doesn't really help,
And I'm saying it literally does help.
It's a retarded psychological detail that people ignore and I like it. But that's just me. Elden Ring brought markers into the game with patches 2bh and I just felt that they made you notice things in the world less. Like instead of using landmarks, you ended up using the map instead.

That's when I realised that the markers themselves in a game can ruin realistic orienteering or land navigation in big maps. Getting lost in botw can be pretty fun sometimes.
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>>598954849
I like this one in particular.
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>>598976764
I get what you're saying but it's like you didn't even read my post
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>>598954849
getting lost with shitty directions was fun
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>>598954849
In my own opinion, I don't like them because they rob me of trying to resolve a problem using my own intuition. Being said, they're convenient for the sake of something more complex that I'd tear my hair out trying to figure out where to go/what to do. Depends on how the developer utilises them I guess
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>>598974009
I don’t care about this as much as you do pal
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>>598976014
A game with an exploration loop doesn't matter if it has markers. A game without an exploration loop needs markers. How many more AAA faux openworlds do people need to bring up before you stop resorting to hyperbolics as if modern games even have the level of detail of oblivion in their world design.

Compare Fallout NV's design philophy to fallout 4.
new vegas you don't explicitly need the map. The strip is sitting there on the horizon and the environment through encounter design sends you in a most viable direction. You go into a cave, you usually find something unique about it. You walk in a random direction, you're going to get your asshole penetrated by something or someone. Some locations are main quest related, but others just imply there is shit to be found there you'll want.

Fallout 4
>find shaun reeeee
>go north following quest markers to make the whole game happen
>literal act gating
If you head east to the coast there isn't a single side quest until the actual coast. Locations like the asylum are locked down and besides enemies shooting at you, there isn't anything to stumble into there. Each thing you're experiencing is in the wrong order. It's only there because in the future a quest will take you to it. Northwest is less spartan, but most of what you'll find are more side quests you were intended to find while doing main quests, meaning you'll now backtrack when you pick up the main quest. Everything else is "settlements" that are ignorable resource sinks placed there for DLC shekeling.

Same engine, same IP, two vastly different approaches to open world design competency. Not that Obsydian is gets a free pass as if they don't design shitty, empty modern gamu open worlds.
>Outer Worlds exists
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/V/ doesn't despise them anymore. /v/ got over its hatred for shitty open world mechanics. Case in point, TW3 is the most popular open world game on /v/, a game that just had you going from map marker to map marker, following some red magic vision trail.
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>>598976580
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>>598977385
That's the problem, and it wouldn't be if you didn't buy games. You can make the industry better by staying out.
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>>598977793
And you make it better how? By being a massive butthurt fag over spilled milk?
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>>598954849
>put marker on open world game
>player only focuses on marked location
>player ignores (debatable) nuances in world design
>immersion can't even start because player's eyes are only on the marker and everything else is visual filler/distraction
>j-just turn it off faggot
>game is designed around quest markers
>game progression breaks if anyone decides to play without them
The irony of designing huge open worlds only to give players tunnel vision is funny and sad at the same time. Quest design should be built without quest markers in mind then add quest markers in certain difficulty settings so players can have the option to play through the game fast or play through the game while taking in everything that went into the game.
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>>598977793
the vote with your wallet shit doesn't work. its a retarded meme. you'll never get normies to join you and they throw money at these franchises and will outspend any protest. you're acting like consumers are smart, they aren't, if they were, you think gacha and shitty DLC practices would be as prevalent as they are?
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>>598978309
Because gatekeeping works, just not widely adopted. There are not nearly enough groups in the consumerbase that have been met with suspicion, exclusion, and hostility.
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>>598978753
>Because gatekeeping works
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>>598978624
No, I want normies to bow out entirely. Treating them like shit until they leave or actually assimilate is a start.
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>>598978753
name one time gate keeping has worked. you think people weren't gate keeping vidya, or warhammer, or marvel comics, or dnd, or any other hobby that got overran by normies. if the normies want in, they'll make it in, and they will outspend you and become the new market. the only way to avoid them is to find interests so obscure that normies never think to touch them.
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>>598978861
If the barrier to entry is strong enough, normies will normies will not be interested.
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>>598979034
Your logic is retarded.
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>>598972562
>>598973359
There aren't any detailed written directions in the quest log you dumb nigger.
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>>598979034
a handful of dudes gatekeeping against legions and legions of normies is not a strong barrier. the only strong barrier to normies is to be autistically niche. like having to play Bolt Action or Flames of War in order to escape the 40k fanboys in tabletop.
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>>598964729
What if the game wasn’t designed with quest markers in mind and were put in post hoc?
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>>598979215
So?
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>>598954849
when we were younger we had time to waste trying to find out what to do
and liking them is an acknowledgement is getting older without any accomplishments

that said, i still use DMRA
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>>598979006
>no way normalfags will ever infiltrate old roguelikes they're way too obtuse and obscure
>oh shit Ultimate ADOM? an actual finished sequel to ADOM? hell yeah
>it ends up being massively dumbed down for a normalfag market that doesn't even fucking exist (and didn't buy the game so it ended up failing hard)
Even when gatekept developers will try to tap into mass appeal. Everyone loves money.
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>>598979006
Not necessarily gatekeeping alone, but the barrier to entry needs to involve some steps, that normies will lose interest in pursuing due to delayed gratification. Ex: The Thief fan mission community remains active even after 23 years, the series has always attracted female players more than most series, and I've never once heard about any of the abundant cancer of 2010s gaming in that community. The casualized 2014 reboot game was honestly hated vastly beyond its actual flaws, but that's still good because a sequel to that series departure will never be made and fans of it will never gain much ground in that community.
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Eleminates all sense of exploration. Having follow road signs and directions in Morrowind was kino. Yes, sometimes the directions were plain wrong. Yes, you'd get lost and frustrated. That is part of adventuring.
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>>598979285
That's what "everybody wins" looks like.
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>>598978315
A middle ground that would be better for everyone would be a return to a hub conceptualization, even if the world itself is open world around it.

Have a nonlinear story
Design an open world where you can stumble into quest events organically without direction
Separate, have a job-quest system where from a centralized location you fade to black (avoiding the quest marker chasing) and just are *at* the quest location.

Apply this to cyberpunk2077 and think how much more interesting it would be and how it could have likely freed up resources towards more radiant-world flushing content at the same time it made the "Quests" carry more weight and have more nuance.

Current CP2077
>look at map
>click on fixer job nearest you
>drive in straight line over civilians on your way to the quest marker
>get out
>meat grinder everyone, as stealth is a meme and there is no gameplay reason to not and the XP and Rep system mean alive enemies is playing nonviably
>get back into car
>drive past the faction you just openly slaughtered and they don't even give you strange room because faction mechanics in an open world of this scale are hard
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>>598979274
>a handful of dudes
My examples of series revivals stood on the bitching of more than just a handful of dudes.
>modern Hitman is NOT like Absolution
>modern DMC is NOT like DmC
>modern RE isn't as ideal as it looked a couple years ago, but it's still NOT like RE6
>honorary mention to Splinter Cell: Blacklist for being steps in the right direction after Conviction
Some good changes can happen when everyone is pissing and moaning in unison.
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>>598980047
Hybrid hub design
>go to afterlife club or a fixers location
>talk to them
>get a job, playing a cutscene where they explain the job, risks of the job, and if you'll auto agro another gang in perpetuity if you partial fail it
>fade to black or drive in car to job location
>do job
>if you killed a bunch of a gang highly publicly they're now mad at you forever
>Will attack you in the open world
>parallel quest trees, centered on the fixers, mean you can forward the game while pissing off other factions that make your exploration-shopping-upgrade loop more difficult as consequence
>fast travel exists, but it is to get you from Hub to Hub not from mission to mission
>vehicle/foot travel lets you explore and find resources and small scale side gigs that can affect your faction relationships
>can stumble into other "fixer" jobs you haven't played and choose a side or fuck them up, pissing off the factions and fixers while ingratiating you to others.

A game like CP2077 as it's currently executed has the scope of a 15 year old Deus Ex game, but is smashed and slammed into an open world format with the exact same amount of actual gameplay. To the point the world is so fucking empty they consider it an accomplishment to have placed hidden zelda chests around it a year after release to after the fact make people maybe explore... but actually just check a wiki... or not bother because mods turn the console back on and the game only has the gameplay potential of a 15 year old Deus Ex title. Because it isn't actually an openworld.
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>>598980119
>>honorary mention to Splinter Cell: Blacklist for being steps in the right direction after Conviction
Well where’s that new SC game?
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>>598954939
Written directions are more of a detriment to exploration than markers.
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>>598980287
That's why it's an honorary mention. The remake of the first game is in development and we'll see how it goes.
IF it's loyal to the original game without modern cancer and IF it's successful, Ubisoft would be working against market incentives to fuck it up again. It's basically a hostage situation which still has me mulling over whether it should be bought or neglected when they could just make a new game on a smaller budget.



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