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Norway and Switzerland seem to be the only two European countries with decent wages. Which is better to immigrate to? Switzerland seems like a better place in terms of earnings for educated folk and has much better weather than Norway, but the housing situation is shit and they don't give permanent residence easily.
I'm a Canadian looking to get out of his soulless shithole of a country.
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>>2266246
One word. Taxes.
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>>2266246

Both countries will shun you as an outsider, both will reject you as a newcomer to their society.

unless you are turbo autism and have societal backing your are lost.
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>>2266403
Huh?
>>2266409
I've always been a loner so I don't really care about being accepted.
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>>2266246
They are a lot more expensive. Pretty sure switzerland is near impossible to imigrate too. If you want 6 figures of monopoly money every year then stay in your money obsessed, diseased shithole, it is perfect for you and is a resupt of people like you.
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>>2266246
>Switzerland seems like a better place in terms of earnings for educated folk and has much better weather than Norway, but the housing situation is shit and they don't give permanent residence easily.
American expat in Switzerland here. You’re right that salaries are typically high for educated expat professionals. But it needs to be taken into consideration that salaries are so high in part because the cost of living is comparably high.

To give you just one reference point, a main course at an unremarkable sit-down restaurant (most anything that isn’t a kebab shop, supermarket takeaway, or fast-food joint) will cost around CHF20 to start, which is almost $27 Canadian. That’s not for anything special—we’re taking about a plate of pasta or something. When I get Thai takeout for my family of four (two adults, two kids, none of us particularly gluttonous), I’m never spending less than CHF100 (CAD133). Add to this that Swiss restaurants are almost never very good and you understand why my family all but quit eating out when we moved here from San Francisco.

Another expenditure to be aware of is health insurance, which is mandatory and not public like in Canada nor employer-subsidized like in the States. Everyone must pay out of pocket for at least a minimum policy, and most people add a supplemental policy for more comprehensive coverage. I have chronic conditions to deal with, so I am an unusually expensive case, but my insurance costs more than CHF1000/month. My healthy kids who see doctors almost never cost almost 400/mo. On the plus side, quality of care is excellent, although specialists have waiting lists.
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>>2266432
Permanent residency is bureaucratic and annoying in a lot of ways, but it’s mostly dependent on continued employment. You can’t move to Switzerland without a contract already in hand (unless you have an EU passport in addition to your Canadian passport), but if you stay employed and don’t break the law you can obtain permanent residency within… I think it’s five years? Note that permanent residency lapses if you leave, though, so if you were to get it and move back to Canada for a period you would be back on temporary residency and have to restart the clock when you got back.

Happy to answer specific questions if you have them.
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>>2266409
> these societies will treat you like an autist rather than the well-adjusted human being you are back home
h-huh wow that's harsh
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>>2266246
>Norway
The wages may be high, but the cost of living so much higher that you're worse off than in many other european countries.
People say that Switzerland is very expensive, but over there it's easy to get 110-130k yearly, while in Norway it's very hard to go about 850-900k NOK yearly and everything is more expensive even compared to Zürich prices.

t. lived in Oslo, currently interviewing for Swiss jobs
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>>2266577
Norway and Switzerland rank about the same in terms of purchasing power adjusted disposable income.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income
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>>2266581
You want to look at median incomes btw, not mean, which is skewed by the finance bigwigs making millions of dollars.
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>>2266432
Are Swiss people really as cold and abrasive as they're made out to be?
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>>2266581
Those broad stats don't tell too much when it comes to an individual's experience when living in a country, trust me I had moved internationally plenty of times. My experience was for software work strictly (as I assume most people are on this website), but if you're in oil then Norway is going to be way better.
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>>2266246

>I'm a Canadian looking to get out of his soulless shithole of a country.
>picks the two most soulless countries in Europe

Anon. . .
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>>2268054
Do you have a suggestion on which country is less soulless than those two?
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>>2268054
Unfortunately, all the soulful European countries (Spain, Italy, Greece...) are poor shitholes.
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>>2268003
Looks like you've fallen for the meme
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>>2268003
I know that Swiss German are known to be the most autistic and boring of all the Germanics.
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>>2266432
>but my insurance costs more than CHF1000/month
What the fuck? Can you explain a little more?
The insurance deals I looked at in the canton of Zurich were like 300-400 CHF for a reasonable maximum out of pocket. I can't remember exactly but I think it was like you pay your own way to around 600 CHF, and then 10% of everything over that up to like 6000 CHF or something. I remember the absolute maximum out of pocket being something reasonable like 1500 CHF yearly.
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>>2268225
> What the fuck? Can you explain a little more?
The insurance deals I looked at in the canton of Zurich were like 300-400 CHF for a reasonable maximum out of pocket.
That 300-400 is your premium; you pay it monthly to get the coverage described below. That’s in line with most of the basic insurance premiums, which don’t cover everything. My basic insurance is $400something/mo., my supplemental coverage (abroad, accidents, and specialists) is the rest.
>I can't remember exactly but I think it was like you pay your own way to around 600 CHF, and then 10% of everything over that up to like 6000 CHF or something.
The amount you pay yourself is known as “franchise” in Switzerland; in the States it would be called a deductible. The higher your franchise the lower your premiums. I have something similar to the franchise you describe.
>I remember the absolute maximum out of pocket being something reasonable like 1500 CHF yearly.
That does not include the monthly premiums.
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>>2268243
>That does not include the monthly premiums.
Yes of course.

So basic insurance doesn't cover accidents or specialists? I have two autoimmune diseases, so I'd definitely need to see a rheumatologist and maybe a dermatologist regularly, and a PhD student salary of 3300 CHF makes it really difficult to spend 1000 CHF per month on insurance. Could I just get the basic insurance and pay for the 4 or 6 yearly specialist visits myself?
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>>2266246
Neither, both are soulless with small town mentality.
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>>2268245
> So basic insurance doesn't cover accidents or specialists? I have two autoimmune diseases, so I'd definitely need to see a rheumatologist and maybe a dermatologist regularly,
The policies vary a lot—you will want to talk to a broker and someone from whatever university will be employing you. An increasing number of specialists are covered by basic insurance—they just added psychotherapy this year, for example—as well as basic accident insurance, but you get more out of supplemental insurance. Mine reimburses for 90% of any medical expenses accrued abroad, which is part of why it’s steep.

My supplemental insurance also covers an endocrinologist and diabetes-related medical equipment; diabetics can’t normally get supplemental insurance at all, which is why I pay so much. My wife’s company has a deal with one of the big insurers.

You can always pay your specialists out of pocket if you have to. Supplemental insurance is not mandatory. They *might* be covered by your basic policy at some level, but don’t count on it.
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>>2268568
Oh, forgot to mention that specialists can get covered by basic insurance in many cases when the patient is referred by an insurance-company-approved GP who says he can’t treat something, and the specialist treatment is considered a medical necessity. Rheumatoid arthritis=probably deemed medical necessity, eczema=probably not.
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>>2268134
>>2268144
>>2268003
This is 80% meme. Swiss Germans in my experience are often rather shy, so they’re definitely not an outgoing people, but if you can manage to make friends they are a fun and even cheerful lot. Mostly very conservative and reserved, though.

There is a widespread belief in making sure that people follow rules/standard operating procedures (I would argue that it’s more important to most people to make sure others follow the rules than it is to follow the rules oneself), and a common feature of customer service is to tell you off about why you’ve done something wrong before fixing whatever problem or providing any service. But once you’ve been appropriately chastened people are often surprisingly friendly.
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>>2268568
>>2268574
Oh cool, that's reassuring. Thanks expat anon.
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I live in Switzerland. Looking at salaries only is not sufficient. You have to factor in taxes and cost of living. If you start with a gross income of CHF 100k, you will have roughly CHF 80k after taxes. Then you will likely need 30-40k for rent and cost of living, so you will be able to save 30-40k per year, which is pretty nice. Rent will probably be around CHF 1500-2000 in one of the larger cities. Finding an apartment is a pain the the ass, especially if you are moving from abroad, as apartments in large cities like Zurich or Geneva are quite competitive, and your landlords will prefer you to have a reference letter from your last landlord kek. Grocery shopping will cost a minimum of CHF 100 a week. Eating out will cost you between CHF 50 (regular dinner with tips) to CHF 100-150 (if you get starters and some wine). I have to disagree regarding the quality of food with the gentleman above. Food quality in restaurants is actually quite high. Though in larger cities with many restaurants, if you just enter a random restaurant, it can happen that you will have an average quality lunch/dinner. There are many excellent restaurants, but you have to know where to find them. Public transport is excellent. You can get to almost any part of the country with public transport, and the trains are always on time. With Swiss salaries and a half-fare card (all your tickets are 50% off then, you should get it), prices even feel pretty cheap (though they probably still are not compared to other countries). Just to give you an example: From Zurich, I am in Berne or Lucern in one hour, in Lugano in two hours, and in Milan in four (by train).
Only downside might be that I feel the Swiss aren't very good-looking people on average. They usually look kind of boring. Norwegian girls are likely better-looking, from what I've heard (if that's important to you).
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>>2269241
Is it possible to just migrate into Switzerland and become a simple farmer or sherpard with a simple medieval lifestyle without caring about how many shekels we earn for a living?
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>>2269247
Not an expert on the subject, but I think getting your residency in Switzerland is quite complicated, you usually get it through your employer. You can't just say I'll move there and then figure it out. Unless you have a EU passport I guess, then it's easier.
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>>2269247
>Is it possible to just migrate into Switzerland and become a simple farmer or sherpard with a simple medieval lifestyle without caring about how many shekels we earn for a living?
If you are non-EU, you're employer has to prove that he could not get a Swiss or EU citizen with the same qualifications. So usually, you should have a few years of working experience before moving from a non-EU country (at age 30 you should have enough, though needless to say it should be a reputable employer). Alternatively, you should be able to qualify for residency if you start a business and are self-employed, but you would need to be able to prove that you make enough to get by in Switzerland.
Subsistence agriculture should technically be possible, but the farm would likely cost an arm and a leg, as real estate in Switzerland is expensive unless it's at the end of the world. Even then, you would not be able to live completely cashless, since you will still have to pay yearly wealth tax on your wealth, and this includes the value of your farm/real estate. Also, if you do not have a mortgage on your house, you have to pay the imputed rental value as tax (usually 60-70% of the estimated potential yearly rental income of your house or rather farm). You could avoid this, but then you will need at mortgage you have to pay off (usually cheaper than the tax). So either way, you will have to pay a certain amount to your bank or the tax authorities each year if you own real estate.
So in other words, I think it would not be so easy to live a simple farmer lifestyle as you have called it, at least if I take that literally and assume you will be doing subsistence agriculture.
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Norway is the most over rated boring autistic place on planet Earth. I would rather live in Winnipeg.
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>>2269250
>>2269256
Aw shucks. There goes my dream. Thanks anons. What about Norway then? Maybe herding some reindeers won't be that bad...
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>>2269247
Switzerland is all about money and the Swiss are some of the most materialistic people I've ever had the misfortune of meeting.
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If I am independently wealthy and my wife has EU citizenship can I move to Switzerland without having to work? Would probably just be there in the summers.
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>>2271057
Your wife would need to get permanent residency there first.
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I been in both as a tourist. I liked Switzerland more, they also have better climate,etc.
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I’ve lived in Norway. It is fabulously expensive and everyone has a “but we have coffee at home” mindset. People mock the British for bland food but they really mean Norway. They had to dial down paprika flavour potato chips. They like “Taco” which is an affront to Central America. Peculiar alcohol monopoly as well to stop the bored locals drinking themselves to death.

However if you like the outdoors and like a proper hard winter then it’s worth it for a while despite the locals who will never accept you.

My sister lived in Switzerland for a while. It was cheaper to drive to France for groceries. She seemed to like it.
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>>2266419
Huh what? You 12? Taxes means money you give to the government. You pay taxes in these countries. Got it?
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>>2266432
>quality of care is excellent, although specialists have waiting lists.
I haven't heard of the first country with quality public healthcare and no waitlists yet.
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Live in germany at boarder
Work in switzerland
Good job opportunities in finance, pharma and biotec
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Okay so, Switzerland is a capitalistic globohomo country, and Norway is a braindead soulless utopia. What about Svalbard? Is Svalbard a perfect place to ghost and start an isekai life?
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No, not Svalbard. A week there as a tourist was long enough, actually living in a desolate winter wasteland would make you go insane. You’d go for a walk in the wilderness just to let the bears have you.
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>>2271092
>Live in germany at boarder
Work in switzerland
>Good job opportunities in finance, pharma and biotec
Also in engineering and chemicals. The Grenzgänger lifestyle can indeed be great (we have many hundreds of them where I live), but OP doesn’t necessarily qualify—a job at a Swiss company can only get you a residence permit for Switzerland, not the EU.

You also have the disadvantage of having to live in small-town border-region Germany, which isn’t my personal idea of a great time.

But it’s cheap, and a Swiss salary does indeed go far there (assuming the company doesn’t pay you a German salary instead because of your address, which some companies do).
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>>2266246
wifi money, live in poor country
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If you like nature then I think the fjords are more impressive than the sights in Switzerland
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>>2271358
whomst?
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>>2271117
Actually that sounds comfy. I'm an introvert you know. I would rather live with a polar bear than people who have zero concept on personal space.
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>>2271070
>They like “Taco” which is an affront to Central America.
Tell me more of this awful Norwegian Taco. Is it like the French “Tacos,” which is essentially a grilled dürüm kebap filled with Cheez-Whiz? That too is an abomination* that bears no resemblance to its namesake.

There is no good Mexican food in Europe, and anyone who says otherwise either doesn’t know better or has bad taste.

>*I mean, if you like low-end cheese sauce and meat I’m sure they’re fine; they seem like the sort of thing young people would like when they’re shitfaced drunk. But they’re not tacos or anything like them. Plus they look more like burritos.

>It was cheaper to drive to France for groceries.
Yeah, I live on the French and German borders—I go to Germany for household cleaning products, cat food, and breakfast cereal, and to France for fish and meat.
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>>2271690
You never had Mexican in a Mediterranean country?
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>>2269281
Just get a visa to stay in Germany for a few months while you apply for jobs in Switzerland. If you speak English and have some sort of programming skillset the banks will be killing each other over you.
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I lived in Switzerland and I currently live in Norway. They are quite similar in many ways. If you want kids, school in Switzerland is tough with a lot of bullying. Norwegian school is too easy with less bullying. Both people are autistic, but Norwegians are more laid back at the workplace, your boss will most likely not chew you out, while in Switzerland you are expected to do your absolute best. Both are very materialistic, but when it comes to soul, Norway is a lot more in toich with Nature. Both have pretty cities, weather is better in Switzerland, food is a little cheaper in Norway. You are taxed heavily in Norway, but including insurance in Switzerland, you pay about the same monthly. If you want a big city, none of the cointries have one, but Oslo is the largest. Culture is more availablr in Switzerland. In Norway you have to work to find culture, which makes it look boring to most people who only visit. Drinking in Norway is toxic, in Seiyzerland it's not. The Swiss are however more mentally ill, so you will encounter more crazy people there. In conclusion: both are pretty, both are nice, both are expensive, but Norwegians don't have as much of a stick up their ass as the Swiss.
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>>2271730
>Norwegians don't have as much of a stick up their ass as the Swiss.
Does anyone?
>>2271716
I’ve had Mexican food in southern Spain; it was not good. There’s one Mexican place in my Swiss hometown that is actually fairly tasty, but wildly inauthentic.
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>>2271748
Derp, sorry, meant to reply to >>2271698 above.
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>>2269241
Do you actually need to tip in Switzerland? I never did it and I been there two times.
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>>2271764
> Do you actually need to tip in Switzerland? I never did it and I been there two times.
Most people round up a bit/leave behind some coins, but it’s not universal and the tips aren’t as high as they would be in the US.
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>>2266246
Fuck off, we're full.

Jokes aside, Switzerland has quite strict requirements for workers from out of CH or the EU.
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>>2271070
This anon isn't entirely wrong in his assessment, although the acceptance part refers mostly to older established normies.

>>2271690
Its not that awful but its certainly not Mexican either.

It usually consists of (high quality) ground beef /chicken with added premade "taco spices" browned in oil/butter, with other ingredients (cheese, lettuce, tomato, corn kernels, red onion, jalapeños, cucumber) and dressings (mashed avocado, spicy tomato salsa, crème fraishe/sour cream) separated in small bowls so one can mix and choose whatever one likes in their a) fajitas or b) hard taco-shells.

Its not bad at all, plus the ingredients are high quality unless you buy the absolute cheapest stuff
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>>2266246
I feel like Norway's weather completely negates any good things it might have going for it. Like, how can anyone be happy in a country with so little sun?
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>>2269247
>just migrate into Switzerland and become a simple farmer or sherpard

Do you think that highly developed European countries are Lord of the Rings LARP sessions? Utterly retarded question
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>>2273233
Yes. I visited there as a tourist, not as a diplomat. My opinions and questions were based on what I see and feel with my senses. I know shit about politics and I will never give a fuck about them. In fact, many people in this [travel] board are like that. (You) are retardedly new for not knowing this. You probably never traveled either.
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>>2271716
I do have some programming skills, but not ones than banks would want though. But yea I get the idea. So I just have to get WFH kind of programming jobs while larping as a sherpard right? Sounds like a good idea.
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>>2273632
Kek, I have openings for programmers in Zurich, we're always looking for some.
Which kind of experience you have?
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>>2274393
Not him but I live in Zürich and I made a LinkedIn a couple of years ago with my bare minimum details, studied IT in the early 2000s, some programming experience in my 20s. Since then I've constantly been bombarded by "headhunters" who I always assumed were scammers. Was I wrong to assume this? Are there actual good jobs for someone with not much experience?
I just have a strong distaste for the IT recruitment industry since I learned they earn money passively by you working. I'd prefer to interview directly with the company myself.
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>>2274459
Many of those head-hunter companies just hire FOR the actual company, they get some commission per contract, but that's it, they're hired by the final company to find good profiles. You would do the interview with your hirer.
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>>2266246
Is Canada that bad or you just bored? American considering moving and Canada seems like America without the problems (health care guns and Christian nationalism)
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>>2274464
yeah I don't agree with them getting a commision.
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>>2266246
I have a friend who's looking to immigrate to Canada. What's wrong with it?
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>>2274493
Take into account that a company may be willing to offer a higher salary if they offered you the opportunity instead of being your the applicant for the position.
Don't be a retard.
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>>2274393
Say someone worked on blood flow simulations for their PhD. The programming was a mix of C++ and Python, and some of it involved multithreaded application development. However, the PhD guy is a mech engineer, not software. Would such a person be able to get a tech job in Switzerland?
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>>2274636
>Say someone worked on blood flow simulations for their PhD. The programming was a mix of C++ and Python, and some of it involved multithreaded application development
Med tech is huge here, I'm getting messages from headhunters with such openings every other week.
>the PhD guy is a mech engineer, not software
There are lab equipment companies, I know of Radiometer Research, which do exactly these kind of things.
>Would such a person be able to get a tech job in Switzerland?
Yes, but. As I mentioned some posts ago, law requests that any application should be fulfilled by a local or EU candidate if there's a suitable one. It's easier for higher education positions like yours, so go for it, you're in a quite good position.
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>>2274657
Cool! I heard they're passing a new law in Switzerland that exempts master's and PhD graduates of Swiss universities from the foreign employment quota, so that's promising.
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>>2274680
>I heard they're passing a new law in Switzerland that exempts master's and PhD graduates of Swiss universities from the foreign employment quota
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzerland-simplifies-process-of-employing-foreign-workers/47403702
I'm now reading about that, cool, as we didn't have enough pajeets sending a thousand applications already.
I swear I'm not hiring one.
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>>2274393
I have a technical MSc degree (not CS) and 2 years of experience with mostly JS and Python. EU citizenship as well. Are you offering to help out here?
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>>2274393
If you're not larping (you probably are), what makes a CV stand out to you?
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>>2274784
Mostly looking for embedded C and maybe a bit of scripting (Python or Pearl), but if you have good and relevant experience you should take a look at openings, it's definitely doable, although 2 years is on the verge of pure junior profile. Of course German is a must in some companies, so take that in mind.

>>2274857
>If you're not larping (you probably are)
Thanks for the compliment, I guess.

For me is relevant professional experience; actual descriptions of the tasks performed instead of buzzwords (sadly you still need to add the buzzwords somewhere in the CV so it passes the first HR filter).
Academic/PhD experience can even be counter productive, as they usually have Senior expectations just because they've been wiping some kids' asses for two years.

Not jumping from company to company every other year; I get that many companies are shit and you just want to find THE one, but no one wants to teach you everything about your position just for you to fuck off the second you would actually start being productive, so you would need a very good reason behind these constant changes.

Defined interests; if you have two years at frontend, one at scripting, after 6 months of arduino tinkering, it's hard to know what your real interests and professional projection are, I want to hire someone who knows what they like, not to be the next career experiment.

Actual contributions; if you have some github/similar profile linked, be sure I'm going to check the shit out of it, you can see when someone's lazy or passionate about programming (as they usually claim), how thorough they are, etc.

I can write more, but it's getting a bit too long.
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>>2275057
You ever hire fresh grads? And how much does the prestige of the university influence your decision?



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