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Norway and Switzerland seem to be the only two European countries with decent wages. Which is better to immigrate to? Switzerland seems like a better place in terms of earnings for educated folk and has much better weather than Norway, but the housing situation is shit and they don't give permanent residence easily.
I'm a Canadian looking to get out of his soulless shithole of a country.
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>>2266246
One word. Taxes.
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>>2266246

Both countries will shun you as an outsider, both will reject you as a newcomer to their society.

unless you are turbo autism and have societal backing your are lost.
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>>2266403
Huh?
>>2266409
I've always been a loner so I don't really care about being accepted.
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>>2266246
They are a lot more expensive. Pretty sure switzerland is near impossible to imigrate too. If you want 6 figures of monopoly money every year then stay in your money obsessed, diseased shithole, it is perfect for you and is a resupt of people like you.
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>>2266246
>Switzerland seems like a better place in terms of earnings for educated folk and has much better weather than Norway, but the housing situation is shit and they don't give permanent residence easily.
American expat in Switzerland here. You’re right that salaries are typically high for educated expat professionals. But it needs to be taken into consideration that salaries are so high in part because the cost of living is comparably high.

To give you just one reference point, a main course at an unremarkable sit-down restaurant (most anything that isn’t a kebab shop, supermarket takeaway, or fast-food joint) will cost around CHF20 to start, which is almost $27 Canadian. That’s not for anything special—we’re taking about a plate of pasta or something. When I get Thai takeout for my family of four (two adults, two kids, none of us particularly gluttonous), I’m never spending less than CHF100 (CAD133). Add to this that Swiss restaurants are almost never very good and you understand why my family all but quit eating out when we moved here from San Francisco.

Another expenditure to be aware of is health insurance, which is mandatory and not public like in Canada nor employer-subsidized like in the States. Everyone must pay out of pocket for at least a minimum policy, and most people add a supplemental policy for more comprehensive coverage. I have chronic conditions to deal with, so I am an unusually expensive case, but my insurance costs more than CHF1000/month. My healthy kids who see doctors almost never cost almost 400/mo. On the plus side, quality of care is excellent, although specialists have waiting lists.
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>>2266432
Permanent residency is bureaucratic and annoying in a lot of ways, but it’s mostly dependent on continued employment. You can’t move to Switzerland without a contract already in hand (unless you have an EU passport in addition to your Canadian passport), but if you stay employed and don’t break the law you can obtain permanent residency within… I think it’s five years? Note that permanent residency lapses if you leave, though, so if you were to get it and move back to Canada for a period you would be back on temporary residency and have to restart the clock when you got back.

Happy to answer specific questions if you have them.
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>>2266409
> these societies will treat you like an autist rather than the well-adjusted human being you are back home
h-huh wow that's harsh
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>>2266246
>Norway
The wages may be high, but the cost of living so much higher that you're worse off than in many other european countries.
People say that Switzerland is very expensive, but over there it's easy to get 110-130k yearly, while in Norway it's very hard to go about 850-900k NOK yearly and everything is more expensive even compared to Zürich prices.

t. lived in Oslo, currently interviewing for Swiss jobs
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>>2266577
Norway and Switzerland rank about the same in terms of purchasing power adjusted disposable income.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income
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>>2266581
You want to look at median incomes btw, not mean, which is skewed by the finance bigwigs making millions of dollars.
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>>2266432
Are Swiss people really as cold and abrasive as they're made out to be?
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>>2266581
Those broad stats don't tell too much when it comes to an individual's experience when living in a country, trust me I had moved internationally plenty of times. My experience was for software work strictly (as I assume most people are on this website), but if you're in oil then Norway is going to be way better.
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>>2266246

>I'm a Canadian looking to get out of his soulless shithole of a country.
>picks the two most soulless countries in Europe

Anon. . .
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>>2268054
Do you have a suggestion on which country is less soulless than those two?
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>>2268054
Unfortunately, all the soulful European countries (Spain, Italy, Greece...) are poor shitholes.
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>>2268003
Looks like you've fallen for the meme
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>>2268003
I know that Swiss German are known to be the most autistic and boring of all the Germanics.
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>>2266432
>but my insurance costs more than CHF1000/month
What the fuck? Can you explain a little more?
The insurance deals I looked at in the canton of Zurich were like 300-400 CHF for a reasonable maximum out of pocket. I can't remember exactly but I think it was like you pay your own way to around 600 CHF, and then 10% of everything over that up to like 6000 CHF or something. I remember the absolute maximum out of pocket being something reasonable like 1500 CHF yearly.
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>>2268225
> What the fuck? Can you explain a little more?
The insurance deals I looked at in the canton of Zurich were like 300-400 CHF for a reasonable maximum out of pocket.
That 300-400 is your premium; you pay it monthly to get the coverage described below. That’s in line with most of the basic insurance premiums, which don’t cover everything. My basic insurance is $400something/mo., my supplemental coverage (abroad, accidents, and specialists) is the rest.
>I can't remember exactly but I think it was like you pay your own way to around 600 CHF, and then 10% of everything over that up to like 6000 CHF or something.
The amount you pay yourself is known as “franchise” in Switzerland; in the States it would be called a deductible. The higher your franchise the lower your premiums. I have something similar to the franchise you describe.
>I remember the absolute maximum out of pocket being something reasonable like 1500 CHF yearly.
That does not include the monthly premiums.
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>>2268243
>That does not include the monthly premiums.
Yes of course.

So basic insurance doesn't cover accidents or specialists? I have two autoimmune diseases, so I'd definitely need to see a rheumatologist and maybe a dermatologist regularly, and a PhD student salary of 3300 CHF makes it really difficult to spend 1000 CHF per month on insurance. Could I just get the basic insurance and pay for the 4 or 6 yearly specialist visits myself?
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>>2266246
Neither, both are soulless with small town mentality.
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>>2268245
> So basic insurance doesn't cover accidents or specialists? I have two autoimmune diseases, so I'd definitely need to see a rheumatologist and maybe a dermatologist regularly,
The policies vary a lot—you will want to talk to a broker and someone from whatever university will be employing you. An increasing number of specialists are covered by basic insurance—they just added psychotherapy this year, for example—as well as basic accident insurance, but you get more out of supplemental insurance. Mine reimburses for 90% of any medical expenses accrued abroad, which is part of why it’s steep.

My supplemental insurance also covers an endocrinologist and diabetes-related medical equipment; diabetics can’t normally get supplemental insurance at all, which is why I pay so much. My wife’s company has a deal with one of the big insurers.

You can always pay your specialists out of pocket if you have to. Supplemental insurance is not mandatory. They *might* be covered by your basic policy at some level, but don’t count on it.
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>>2268568
Oh, forgot to mention that specialists can get covered by basic insurance in many cases when the patient is referred by an insurance-company-approved GP who says he can’t treat something, and the specialist treatment is considered a medical necessity. Rheumatoid arthritis=probably deemed medical necessity, eczema=probably not.
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>>2268134
>>2268144
>>2268003
This is 80% meme. Swiss Germans in my experience are often rather shy, so they’re definitely not an outgoing people, but if you can manage to make friends they are a fun and even cheerful lot. Mostly very conservative and reserved, though.

There is a widespread belief in making sure that people follow rules/standard operating procedures (I would argue that it’s more important to most people to make sure others follow the rules than it is to follow the rules oneself), and a common feature of customer service is to tell you off about why you’ve done something wrong before fixing whatever problem or providing any service. But once you’ve been appropriately chastened people are often surprisingly friendly.
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>>2268568
>>2268574
Oh cool, that's reassuring. Thanks expat anon.
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I live in Switzerland. Looking at salaries only is not sufficient. You have to factor in taxes and cost of living. If you start with a gross income of CHF 100k, you will have roughly CHF 80k after taxes. Then you will likely need 30-40k for rent and cost of living, so you will be able to save 30-40k per year, which is pretty nice. Rent will probably be around CHF 1500-2000 in one of the larger cities. Finding an apartment is a pain the the ass, especially if you are moving from abroad, as apartments in large cities like Zurich or Geneva are quite competitive, and your landlords will prefer you to have a reference letter from your last landlord kek. Grocery shopping will cost a minimum of CHF 100 a week. Eating out will cost you between CHF 50 (regular dinner with tips) to CHF 100-150 (if you get starters and some wine). I have to disagree regarding the quality of food with the gentleman above. Food quality in restaurants is actually quite high. Though in larger cities with many restaurants, if you just enter a random restaurant, it can happen that you will have an average quality lunch/dinner. There are many excellent restaurants, but you have to know where to find them. Public transport is excellent. You can get to almost any part of the country with public transport, and the trains are always on time. With Swiss salaries and a half-fare card (all your tickets are 50% off then, you should get it), prices even feel pretty cheap (though they probably still are not compared to other countries). Just to give you an example: From Zurich, I am in Berne or Lucern in one hour, in Lugano in two hours, and in Milan in four (by train).
Only downside might be that I feel the Swiss aren't very good-looking people on average. They usually look kind of boring. Norwegian girls are likely better-looking, from what I've heard (if that's important to you).
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>>2269241
Is it possible to just migrate into Switzerland and become a simple farmer or sherpard with a simple medieval lifestyle without caring about how many shekels we earn for a living?
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>>2269247
Not an expert on the subject, but I think getting your residency in Switzerland is quite complicated, you usually get it through your employer. You can't just say I'll move there and then figure it out. Unless you have a EU passport I guess, then it's easier.
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>>2269247
>Is it possible to just migrate into Switzerland and become a simple farmer or sherpard with a simple medieval lifestyle without caring about how many shekels we earn for a living?
If you are non-EU, you're employer has to prove that he could not get a Swiss or EU citizen with the same qualifications. So usually, you should have a few years of working experience before moving from a non-EU country (at age 30 you should have enough, though needless to say it should be a reputable employer). Alternatively, you should be able to qualify for residency if you start a business and are self-employed, but you would need to be able to prove that you make enough to get by in Switzerland.
Subsistence agriculture should technically be possible, but the farm would likely cost an arm and a leg, as real estate in Switzerland is expensive unless it's at the end of the world. Even then, you would not be able to live completely cashless, since you will still have to pay yearly wealth tax on your wealth, and this includes the value of your farm/real estate. Also, if you do not have a mortgage on your house, you have to pay the imputed rental value as tax (usually 60-70% of the estimated potential yearly rental income of your house or rather farm). You could avoid this, but then you will need at mortgage you have to pay off (usually cheaper than the tax). So either way, you will have to pay a certain amount to your bank or the tax authorities each year if you own real estate.
So in other words, I think it would not be so easy to live a simple farmer lifestyle as you have called it, at least if I take that literally and assume you will be doing subsistence agriculture.
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Norway is the most over rated boring autistic place on planet Earth. I would rather live in Winnipeg.
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>>2269250
>>2269256
Aw shucks. There goes my dream. Thanks anons. What about Norway then? Maybe herding some reindeers won't be that bad...



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