Big sister editionPrevious thread >>88947202A thread for discussing 'A Song of Ice and Fire'. Possible topics include the original novels, Fire and Blood, Dunk & Egg, general lore and theories, characters, artwork, HBO's adaptations "Game of Thrones" and "House of the Dragon", and various videogames.>Lore ResourcesA Wiki of Ice and Fire – Canon wikihttp://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_PageThe Lands of Ice and Fire - Official mapshttps://www.mediafire.com/folder/q5a5zbkb30uxo/TLoIaFAtlas of Ice and Fire - Fan blog with maps and speculation on geography, population, and historyhttps://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com1d4chan Page - A Song of Ice and Fire explained by fa/tg/uyshttps://1d4chan.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire>Game ResourcesA Song of Ice and Fire RoleplayingPDF Collectionhttps://www.mediafire.com/folder/6sar1o14399xv/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire_Roleplaying_(SIFRP)Cheat Sheets (Includes House Creation Rules)https://www.mediafire.com/folder/cam2kq4lrmdm9/Cheat_SheetsA Song of Ice & Fire: Tabletop Miniatures GameOfficial CMOM Page (Rules, FAQs, Player Resources, and News)https://asoiaf.cmon.comOnline Army Builderhttps://asoiafbuilder.comStatistics Reference (Tournament Details, Faction Rankings, and Player Rankings)https://asoiaf-stats.com/>A Game of Thrones: The Living Card Game (2nd Edition)Official Fantasy Flight Games Page (Rules, FAQ, Player Resources, and News)https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/a-game-of-thrones-the-card-game-second-edition/Card Spoilershttp://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/agameofthrones2ndedition/a-game-of-thrones-2nd-edition-cardsDeckbuilderThread Question: Worst storyline or subplot in ASOIAF?
>>88973803This is now a Blacks Hate Thread
>>88973820The writers don't agree
>>88973895Fact: the smallfolk of king's landing are nonproductive subhumans who ought to be purged with wildfireThey don't even know about crops.
>>88973803Bran because of extra magic and time travelling bullshit. It's also boring.
>>88973803>Worst storyline or subplot in ASOIAF?anything dorne, arya's super secret magic ninja training montage, bran's super secret magic training montage, tyrion's adaventures in essos
>>88973960So basically everything past ASOS?
>>88974002no, just those
I wish Tywin had some PoV chapters atleas :(
>>88974118It would just be the spiteful mutterings of a very insecure man.
>>88974126Silence, you little turd.
>start reading Dune>Gurm stole like half of the concepts from this book too HOW does he keep getting away with it, it's pretty ridiculous
>>88974131Reminder Tywin died on the toilet.
>>88973875>>88973895I fail to see why King Landers opinions matter, they are sub-human trash that should have been purged long ago, like the rest of the city.
>>88974134>GurmEnd yourself please.>>88973875The Queen on the right looks very beautiful. Gods do I want to sleep with her and cuddle her all morning long.
>>88974118>I hate my son so goddamn much>time to have that whore of his whipped, that will teach him not to fuck around>meanwhile, I'll send for that other whore of his, that's a prime cut of pussy>now that I've lost Gregor, Hoat and Lorch who will I send to rape and murder peasants?>Jaime won't quit the Kingsguard to do what I want? Time to disown himThat would be incredibly unpleasant to read. Like Tyrion at his worst in early ADWD, but 10 times more mean spirited.
>>88974134>Barbarians raised in a harsh land and culture being stronger than a trained army>Protagonist is possibly a product of an attempt to fulfill a prophecy>Dangers of believing in heroes or saviors because they're probably actually tyrants>Ends with a major character becoming a god emperorMaybe..?
>>88973914>>88974158What exactly do the smallfolk of King's Landing do?
>>88974214They're homeless people that camp around the Red Keep.
>>88974205>Barbarians raised in a harsh land and culture being stronger than a trained armyTo be fair, this was pretty well justified with how the technology and doctrine of the setting was arranged to place individual combat prowess as the top military priority. And the Fremen were discussed as basically being a whole culture under military discipline anyway.
Has gurn ever talked about aragorn and arwens love? I assume it repulsed as he is a man without it, but i am curious to know.
>>88974205I'm like 100 pages away from finishing the first book and I'm only comparing the books and obviously the characters aren't 1:1 but>protagonist house moves somewhere else where it clashes with rival house that has been there for longer>head of good house dies because of bad guys prompting son and wife to wander around>good house is later considered extinct>son born to fulfill prophecy>son has visions of the future>ancient prophecy about saviour with a specific name that would lead armies etc>son goes to desert where he encounters red-haired girl whom he accidentally courts/"marries">perfect prince supported by fat man who's supposed to show up when shit goes down and become everyone's saviour>substance that consumed in excess makes a part of your body blue>Fremen/Free Folk>prophesied hero concept encompasses both genders >elite military force trained in incredibly harsh conditions since young ageAnd these are the ones I remember. Mixed and matched.
>>88974214They are simple merchants, traders and workers from the city. The issue comes that every description of the city paints it as the worst shithole to live in.It's constantly described as smelling like shit, the peasants have rioted over everything and everytime they do it somehow leads to at least one gang rape and it seems like the place is all around awful. Someone even compared it to the feel of other cities and compared KL to an unwashed whore.
>>88974321I don't think so. I don't think he was too thrilled because it was mostly background stuff and involved some tropes he probably wouldn't like.
>>88974195George RR Martin (GRRM)
>Okay but where do the people shit? Like am I really supposed to be believe they just kept little pots around in their bedrooms to poop on? What about the smell? How were they disposed? Did they just throw them outside on the ground, wouldn't everything be covered in shit then?
>>88974321He probably can't imagine it in the same way he can't imagine hobbit sex.
>>88974187I would enjoy reading Tywin PoV chapters :DFuck you btw.
>>88973803Why is Benjen angy? What did Lyanna say/do for the bullying?
>>88974402The middle initials are made up.
>>88974407My man routinely imagines a 14 year old loosing to cock constantly and yet small humans baffle him. The fuck? Does he not imagine tyrion fucking?
>>88974422Good 4 you.
Pate & Boris
>>88974424According to the books he imagines him in too much detail.
>>88974422>George Raymond Richard Martin (born George Raymond Martin>George Raymond Martin (he adopted the confirmation name Richard at 13 years old)I almost believed you man
>>88974415He was the youngest sibling of four children. Brandon was the heir, Ned got to go to the Vale and bonded with other lords from outside the North, his own sister was a capable rider, swordfighter, and jouster. He probably felt very inadequate in comparison and this is probably why he joined a penal colony in the first place.
>>88974481>penal colonyYou know, I never gave the Night's Watch too much thought, but it really is fucked up to send your kid among murderers, thieves and rapists for "prestige".
Why did magic want a crazy man to chop off an adolescent orphan’s (Varys) genitalia and toss it into fire?Is magic a sick fuck? It clearly has mental issues.
>>88974446Yeah i thought so. So what the fuck is he talking about not imagining hobbits fucking.
>>88974352>Roro Uhoris, the Cobblecat's cranky old master, used to claim that he could tell one port from another just by the way they smelled. Cities were like women, he insisted; each one had its own unique scent. Oldtown was as flowery as a perfumed dowager. Lannisport was a milkmaid, fresh and earthy, with woodsmoke in her hair. King's Landing reeked like some unwashed whore. But White Harbor's scent was sharp and salty, and a little fishy too. "She smells the way a mermaid ought to smell," Roro said. "She smells of the sea."Vale shitter didn't need to apply apparently.
Eh, it sounds like GRRM taking an idea about capitals being busy, messier and naturally dirtier than smaller towns and cranking it up to eleven. I feel bad for KL, it deserved better.
>>88974118>>88974131>>88974412Since when does Pycelle have access to the Internet?
>>88974481Though it is unknown why he did so, that seems like the correct reason. Benjen loyally serves to the very end. Fingers crossed we find out about his fate. If he is alive I hope he keeps his....hands warm
>>88974657I would keep Milly hands warm
>>88974657George already confirmed that Coldhands is not just Benjen so I assume he has become the Others' sex slave.
>>88974516Magic is a bloodthirsty pedophile. Yes. Why do you think the children of the forest even exist?
>>88973875This is fucking ridiculous. Rhaenyras entire thing is that shes a bloody tyrant, that shes remembered as "Maegor with teats", that as a woman she will never be accepted as a ruler by the people. The greens have an easy time at the start because theyre so popular, and rhaenyra is forced to flee to dragonstone because the smallfolk despise her and chase her out
>>88975337>Rhaenyras entire thing is that shes a bloody tyrant>The greens have an easy time at the start because theyre so popular, and rhaenyra is forced to flee to dragonstone because the smallfolk despise her and chase her outThat's well after this point, though. Rhaenyra was initially welcomed by the king's landing smallfolk who hated Aegon II. They only turned against her after she started taxing the shit out of them.
>>88975337>>88975467sometimes I think if it wasnt for that gigaretard bartimos celtigar the blacks would've gotten a easier win
>>88975467i know its a bit different in the show (i stopped watching after episode 7 of the 1st season i think) but in the book they have the whole city show up for his coronation. And they all cheer for him in the show too when he gets coronated. When did they suddenly start hating him? And isnt Rhaenyra supposed to have a reputation as a whore?
>>88975597They'll probably use Aemond's kin slaying to spin it as a negative to justify the scene
>>88975597they are possibly present for any coronation that takes place in the city, they are led there by officials. they were even present for cersei, it's nothing uncommon
>>88975597>they have the whole city show up for his coronationdo you have brain damage to not realise how retarded that sounds?
New pic from the 2024 calendar, the Last Hero fighting the Others.
I love ASOIAF but I hate how the miniatures line has no accuracy to the page at all. It should have either been set in the Age of Heroes where you can justify more fantastical/magical units, or a more realistic (and page accurate) wargame set in the WotFK elevated purely on aesthetics instead of meme fantasy-esque units
>>88976107>the others are some skelly looking faggots againi sleep
>>88976149I'm more annoyed they wasted time on the Bolton mini-faction. It's cool and all but the rest of the Golden Company should have come first, or at least their heroes box.
>>88976391Das right. The white walkers are supposed to be pretty bishounen anime looking fuckers that fujoshis want to see peg each other. The only thing gayer (hotter) are them cock sucking dragon lords.
>>88967897Well a waterlogged head isn't getting resurrected for anything other than to beg for death. A resurrected Robb would be the most pitiful thing you've ever seen in your life.
>>88976489>most pitiful thing you've ever seen in your lifeImpossible, Arya's character arc is a thing.
>>88976794Arya becomes a loli cultist ninja in Winds of Winter so its not that pitiful
Guys what if Catelyn finds Ned's remains and gives him the kiss of life?
>>88977568As much as we bitch about ninja Arya I unironically think her arc is supposed to be her killing Lady Stoneheart and learning that vengeance does nothing for you. If Arya killed everyone on her list, what then? It's very typical but very poignant.
>>88977568What would she even revive, some bones?
>>88977694After Mercy, she's gonna get sent to the wall, tasked with killing "The Three-Eyed Crow" but she'll break the conditioning when she finds out it's Bran and not Bloodraven, then she'll try to do her murder spree before running into Catelyn.
>>88977694>what then?then she has the satisfaction of killing every piece of shit that deserved it and made her life hell and she can finally move on
>>88977793Yeah an 11-year-old at maximum, having a kill count in the dozens or hundreds, I'm sure she'd be very normal and well-adjusted, very able to move on. What she wants is Winterfell, Ned, her siblings, and Jon. But she can't have those. They are gone. So she has to fill the void with murder and vengeance.
Arya's story is so silly that I can't take it seriously.
>>88974187Don't forget "Everyone else is an idiot except for me."
>>88978033Same desu. I don't think it would bother me that much if she were a born assassin or we had a ten-year timeskip where she becomes really good but as it stands she went from basic sword training to master ninja assassin in one or two years.
>>88978033it was good while she was in westeros, the second she set her foot in braavos it became a turd
>>88978033>>88978195>>88978611No doubt, Arya is the greatest victim of the lack of a 5-year-gap.
I need Wyman Manderly's The North Remember quote. Run it by me please, fellas.
>>88979397you can't just use google?
>>88979443I'm banned from google.
It would take like 2/3 entire post so here are some videos and the texthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65MQRZKP4YYhttps://genius.com/George-r-r-martin-a-dance-with-dragons-davos-iv-the-north-remembers-speech-annotated
>>88979457that attire would look mighty silly if it was white
Is there a central training/production facility that produces The Unsullied, or is the method of training and standard to which they are trained just sort of an industrial/production standard the Ghiscari slave market puts to the slaves it intends to sell solely for combat? Like, I'm a Ghiscsri slaver. I want to sell Unsullied. Do I go and buy Unsullied from where they are trained, or do I buy male youths, put them through the commonly accepted training process that produces Unsullied, and sell them then? Both?
>>88980327better question is what do they do with all the cut off cock and balls?
>>88980351Sure, everybody in Slaver's Bay loves to eat a tasty dogAnybody can just grab some mutt from the nearest gutter, but that isn't the primo shitThe best dogmeat comes from dogs fed entirely on the genitals of castrated children
I've only watched HOTD, not read those books, but isn't Rhaenyra at fault for everything? If she just didn't be a massive whore everything would've been fine.
>>88980542>but isn't Rhaenyra at fault for everything?no, not really. hightowers wanted power so they would have sperged out regardlss of whether her children were legitimate. Not to mention that velaryons aren't niggers, so her children being illegitimate might have been just a bunch of lies. also her husband wasn't a faggot in the books. Congratulations on watchng goyslop that destroyed any sense of intrigue the story had. Don't do it again
>>88980365>be me>be Ghiscari slave trader>bought a share in a batch of unsullied in training some time ago >fed my part of their manhoods to some dogs I'm fattening up to wine and dine a great master>potential unsullied have been really low quality lately, which is admitedly good for me since my investment is skyrocketing>diversify into hosuehold and prestige slaves>come home absolutely drenched one day, can't wait to mask the stench with some perfume>dog hits me with this stare
>>88980915>so her children being illegitimate might have been just a bunch of lies. It was fairly obvious they were bastards. Two people with white hair and pure valyrian blood somehow produce black haired children (despite there never being such a case before in history)>also her husband wasn't a faggot in the booksHe was gay in F&B too.
>>88981048IF they were Laenor's children they would have had baratheon and Arryn grandmothers. Now, admittedly I don't know how hair colour is passed down, but then neither does George and Westerosi genetics are magic anyway.And to be perfectly honest with you it's much more interesting if there's a possibility, however small that they may have actually been trueborn rather than just>NAH NIGGA THESE NIGGAS IZ BASTARDS FO SHO
>>88981048well, i must have missed all the obvious signs, since i've missed renly being a poof too
>>88981153>And to be perfectly honest with you it's much more interesting if there's a possibility, however small that they may have actually been trueborn rather than just NAH NIGGA THESE NIGGAS IZ BASTARDS FO SHOWould it have? If they were really trueborn, all it would do is make the Black vs Greens conflict even more one-sided than it already is. Rhaenyra's infidelity and her heirs being illegitimate produces drama that affects herself, the children, her claim and introduces tension because the Greens actually have a point against her.Plus it'll be ironic down the line when Rhaenyra declares all bastards to be inherently untrustworthy and tries to put all the dragonseeds in jail.
>>88981644yes, it would have
>>88981644>If they were really truebornI don't think it should be explicitly confirmed either way.Who knows maybe Vaegon, going insane after he realised he'd just all but guaranteed that a descendant of Daella Targaryen would sit on the throne called down a curse on all her descendants, which manfested in Rhaenyra and laenors TRUEBORN sons as a suspicious colouring and in the rest of house Targaryen as being addled shitters.
>>88977568Aegon is such a lucky man...
>>88982049>a puffy nosed kid grows into a horse-faced briti wish more shows put in an effort into finding actors who look like their younger counterparts
>>88980327It's probably organized like the Ventian trade fleets, where merchants subscribe (buy ownership in) each class/fleet which is sort of a special purpose company, but the whole thing is heavily regulated by the government anyway. That assumes an anachronistic level of financial development, but that's normal in Westeros
>>88977694>If Arya killed everyone on her list, what then?Retire to the suburbs. Mow the law every Saturday. Watch football on Sundays. >>88977568Speaking of, what happens when Mel revives Jon, but he's already alive inside of Ghost? Would there just be two Jon Snows? Would there be one Jon with two different bodies?
>>88982580>Speaking of, what happens when Mel revives Jon, but he's already alive inside of Ghost? Would there just be two Jon Snows? Would there be one Jon with two different bodies?Consciousness transfer
>>88974674This but with another part of her, iykwim
>>88982128Dark was something else.
>>88983989if you think about it. raping a young rhaenyra with non STRONG seed and giving her children that look valyrian would be doing everyone a favour
A Song of ASS and FARTS!
>>88983989What do you mean?
>>88974134Stole and did something better, you mean. Dune is overrated as fuck.
If Arya was completely removed from the story nothing of value would be lost. Can you change my mind on that?Brienne does the ''female outcast witnessing the horrors of war'' better. The Hound does the ''Vengeance corrupts your soul'' better. Asha does the ''tomboy adventurer'' better. Even the Sand Snakes make for a variety of strong, dangerous women more convincingly. Arya does nothing particularly well and her arc is so ridiculous it only serves to diminish the quality of the overall series.
>>88984921Yeah, having to read about five or six amazingly gifted prophecy children is much better than reading about just one.
>>88985018At least George's characters feel human, instead of everyone being a 180 IQ ubermensch master conspirator and despite being a literal demigod that can see into the future, Paul dies like a little bitch while failing at everything. Its funny how the author tries so hard to make us believe that his characters are so intelligent and there are complex political conspiracies happening, but the actual plans we see put in execution are things like: ''uhhh, what if we made some super tigers and let them loose on Arrakis so maybe they kill Paul's children?''. Fascinating stuff.
>>88985014Arya is George and his wife's favorite character so it's not happening.
>>88985045For the record I find Paul's part of the story incredibly dull, but the main idea was that the ideas George has "borrowed" from several other books vastly outnumber his own original ideas and I find that ridiculous.
>>88985096I understand your point, but I'm not particularly bothered by that. A great chef can make a better dish using the same ingredients from existing recipes.
>>88979397My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder's bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter ... but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer's farce is almost done. My son is home.
What if killing Robert was a long con by Pycelle and Tywin to avenge Rhaegar?
>>88985175>try to free Rhaegar from pesky wife and kids and make him available for Cersei>that dumb Robert ends up killing him>he becomes king>now Cersei has to marry himHmmm
after reading the background lore in AWOIAF I sympathize with House Bracken a lot more over House Blackwood now
>>88985045A lot of antagonists don't feel human, they're basically cartoon villains. Same with intrigue characters like Varys and Littlefinger, they're pulpy and fun but they don't feel like people who would actually exist in real life.
>>88985148>Dies immediately from diabetes
Wait, What is going to happen after Jon gets ressurected? Going by how it works, his body will still decay and he won't age. What is he going to do with his zombie Life?
>>88985445I'm sure his old Stark/ whatever Other genes will activate and he'll be fine.
>>88985445I thought the body remains intact as it was so you'll still have scars but it won't decay? Like Beric was cleaved and resurrected, apparently they just bandaged him up until the wound healed.Although I feel like the purpose of Jon dying is mainly to free him from the Night's Watch vows and finally allow him to directly participate in the main plot and just maybe nod to the Azor Ahai prophecy (Davos and Melisandre would probably be in attendance of his rebirth, ala born amidst salt and smoke).
>>88985556Honestly getting tired of all these contrivances
>>88984401>>88985103Guess it yourselves, I won't spell it out for you! Hmph!
This fat fuck must have laughed his fucking ass off before dying, what a lad
>>88985651He was literally eaten alive by giant parasitic worms so probably not.
>>88985445>his body will still decayFire Wights don't seem to do this. Mel is almost certinly decades older than she looks, doesn't eat, and is fine, and the Lighting Lord was mutilated from his repeated deaths, not rotting.
>>88974541Gullbros... it's over...
>>88984401My grace I've consulted the tapestries and.. I think he's refering to peenus in da vageenus.
>>88985950>I'll have your tongue for that
Why didn't Aegon exterminate the Ironborn with Balerion? Even burning their forests and ships would've been a reasonable compromise.
>>88986590Didn't the Greyjoy surrender? Aegon had a very generous policy for those who kneeled to him.
>rewatching Rome>Kevin McKidd never got to play JonCon
>>88986688Greyjoy wasn't in charge, then. I think Harren (or however it's spelled) was. A large portion of Aegon's support and legitimacy came from liberating the Riverlands from then.
>>88986688Harren the Black was the ruler of the Iron Islands and the Riverlands. When Aegon burned him he gave the Riverlands to the Tully's and allowed the Ironborn to choose their next leader
>>88986590why would he do that when he could keep them around so they could harass the faggots in Essos? it's not like they raided westeros after he forbid them from doing it since everyone on those Islands had been buck broken by the burning of Harrenhal
No one in Westeros finds it weird how Ned Stark, the most average swordsman ever, has supposedly defeated Arthur Fucking Dayne? Does everyone assume that a 7 vs. 3 fight was enough to overwhelm 3 of the best swordsmen of their time?
>>88988215In the show, Jaime is pretty excited to face off against Ned in a duel twice.
>>88988268In the books no one thinks of Ned as a great swordsman, though.
>>889882157vs3 is a pretty big advantage, Ned was not remarkable, but decent enough and WE don't know about his boys.
>>88986982Not old enough I think.
Would you marry Lolis for Stokeworth?
>>88988576if I wasn't a Lord? absolutely hand me a fucking castle and the lands and incomes that comes with it, hell I'll even treat the bastard as my own son for that.
>>88987803>>88986590The Ironborn still existing as a power is one of the most baffling parts of the setting. Even without dragons, it only takes Stannis, who surely isn't the greatest tactician they've ever had, to figure out how to slap the shit out of them.Those islands are explicitly mentioned as non-fertile and they've fucked the trees on a lot of them, hence them needing to raid. Like, they feel like a little slice of the Viking Age somehow anachronistically existing in the Medieval Period when they should have either died out, or been absorbed, or built their kingdom and adapted.I guess things just get kinda fucky like that with the lack of progress in Westeros.
>>88989350I always find it weird the Ironborn can raid the Stepstones, but never go to Essos or the Summer Isles which seem closer or the same distance, but much much more wealthy. I don't even know how any of these houses still respect the Old Way since they only get to raid in Civil wars for the last 3 centuries.
>>88989642Raiding was never banned anon they could raid as much as they like as long as it wasn't in the Seven Kingdoms.
>>88989655But don't we only ever hear of them going to the stepstones? iirc there isn't any mention of a raid on any of the Summer Isles which are not united, or the free cities. I guess Euron does attack these places but thats only after the exile, and his crew isn't specifically ironborn. Like Victarion is this uber raider meathead but doesn't know anything about Essos, so much so that he doesn't know what a Dothraki sea is. I guess 1 of the 7 kingdoms raiding an independent state would cause diplomatic tension.
>>88989703I mean what are they going to do? go to war with the most powerful realm in the world?
>>88988215>the most average swordsman everned never enjoyed battle and didn't show off in tourneys, so his skill with the sword is probably a mystery to most
>>88989350I personally think that, while the Ironborn make no sense as a society that has remained what it was after 300 years of relative peace, it's hardly the worst in the series.The Vale mountain clans no having been wiped out by an angry noble sending his army to their camps is unbelievable. Sure they raid every traveler making the simple fact of moving through the country dangerous but at the same time it seems no one ever cared enough about getting rid of them or try to integrate them into the kingdom.And the Dothraki should have died out ages ago considering their lifestyle is simple not sustainable in the numbers the have and that they only kill, enslave and rape with no other way to interact with other societies.
>>88988343connington is like 40
>>88990125especially after the 3000 at Qohor. The Unsullied can apparently annihlate the Dothraki charge, so I would have assumed one of the free cities would amass a large army of Unsullied and just sweep a chunk of the Dothraki steppe.
>>88989703>>88989764Historically speaking, The Knights of Malta dragged Venice into a couple sieges/wars in the Mediterranean over being literal Catholic pirates and harassing the Ottoman Empire, the largest power in Europe at the time. ASOIAF should, at the very least, have had the Free Cities in constant conflict and trade fuckery with Westeros, with the Ironborn being an attack dog that gets sic'd on the most valuable part of the Free Cities, their trade.Or at least there should be some recognition that if the Ironborn indeed, go back to the Old Ways, that they don't seize Free-flagged ships or Westerosi prizes.The Narrow Sea should be like the Adriatic, with a bunch of players on a micro and macro level constantly rising and falling. Gulltown becomes the most profitable port, but the political disruption to the Seven Kingdoms is palpable as the Reach and Westerlands lose a lot of influence and money.
ck3agot is dogshit lads sad
>>88989350Isn’t there a large portion of the iron born who are just like regular lords who own things and make money from their serfs? I think at the kingsmoot there were several of the larger houses who asha was thinking were “green lords” who planted trees to sell and were able to farm since they owned the only decent land on the iron isles. And those were the richest ones. I think the iron islands are less like the Vikings and more similar to Westeros, but organize their society with the berserkers at the top. Fishermen are still providing most of the food, they’re just treated as second class citizens despite being able to produce much more than a reaver.
>>88990544the Ironborn have been moving away from the old ways ever since the Hoares took over. there has only been like 2 Greyjoys that actually tried reviving it.
>>88988320No one thinks of someone like the Hound as a great swordsman either, but he’s a good soldier and a brutal killer. Jaime seems like the type to genuinely want to test himself against someone who had seen a lot of battle and proven himself
>>88990573Yea, that’s the impression I got. Soldiers and raiders used to be kings, and they were certainly still powerful.. but lost more societal prestige and power everyday to the greener lords. People like Balon
>>88990293The funny thing about that specific anecdote is that Jorah specifically mentions that the Dothraki would've had them dead to rites if the Khal hadn't been a complete retard. They could've encircled and butchered the Unsullied or just swung around and hit them from the sides, or literally anything except ram face first into a fucking phalanx, but apparently the Khal was just a complete dunbass and refused to change tactics after it failed for the tenth time in the same say.
>>88975467she was never welcomed by the smallfolk, unless it's some retcon from F&B
>>88989703I'm pretty sure Asha mentions the Summer Isles at one point. But overall I imagine it's easier to pillage a load of squabbling islands than a massive kingdom full of Yellow Fever and AIDS or incredibly powerful nations that are city states in name only.
>>88985651Who is who besides Aegon the Unworthy?
>>88985218Finding out the Brackens were the one telling the truth about the feud was a surprise, the Blackwoods seemed more like the honest ones.
>>88975467The show is making the blacks to be the good guys in the eyes of a casual watcher. Everything bad the blacks did so far has been washed to seem justifiable, and the greens are made to look worse. It’s sort of funny how they’re trying so hard to make Rhaenyra the good guy, a poor woman who had her birthright stolen. Who is just a victim of sexism. I assume they’re going to get around Blood and Cheese by making Daemon the only one who knew about it, and even daemon told them not to kill the kid just scare them, but the mercenaries went too far. Beyond that I wouldn’t be surprised if they make Aegon and the other greens start calling people niggers or something
>>88986590He wasn't really a good leader, he got lucky due to having three massive dragons. He couldn't properly administrate or govern Westeros, he failed to create a bureaucracy or courts to facilitate Tagaryen rule, he failed to establish a functional absolute monarchy by instead relying on the Lords Paramount to gather their own taxes, administer the laws in the absence of royal officers and effectively act as petty kings, he failed to supply the royal house with adequate lands for incomes, he failed to conquer Dorne, and he basically set up the "dracocracy" system that would lead to shit like the Dance of the Dragons, the Blackfyre Rebellions, and the ultimate end of House Targaryen less than 300 years later.He was a lucky mofo, but ultimately suffered from either poor leadership skills or hyper-focus on the powers of dragons.
>>88990771The feud goes back to the Age of Heroes, what are you possibly talking about? In the Jaime riverlands chapters it’s implied there never even was a “beginning” to the feud, it’s just people fighting for resources while the innocents get caught in the middle.
>>88990771I think the Brackens are probably in the right, to the extent that anyone can be in the right of a blood feud. Let’s take the origin of their dispute:>“The Blackwoods say they were kings and the Brackens little more than petty lords set on betraying and deposing them, while the Brackens say much the same about the Blackwoods.”Given that the Blackwoods were originally a Northern House who had to immigrate to the South (”the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter”), it’s a lot more likely that the Brackens were the kings and the Blackwoods the disloyal vassals than vice versa. Sort of puts the whole dispute in a different light, doesn’t it?
>>88990868>what are you possibly talking about?lol>>88990875It does seem like the more likely explanation. Exiles hounded out of the north by the Starks are unlikely to become kings. It seems more plausible that the Blackwoods found service in the lands of the petty king Brackens, then made a bid for power when they had the resources. Funny to think they're the ones GRRM dotes on.
>>88990846>he didn’t resolve a million problems after being the first to unite people who love to kill eachother and have been for centuries. That’s just unfair. He spent most of his time trying to finish the conquest.
>>88990915Eat shit bracken fanboy
>>88990917He didn't resolve basic-ass problems that each of the kingdoms themselves already had functioning examples of, and so he didn't end up uniting anyone in anything except fear of being burned to death since he left them functionally separate kingdoms governed by their own lords.Then he spent most of his time ineffectually warring with the Dornish and fucking up his own succession because he didn't establish any of the things mentioned.
>>88990915>grrm writes the blackwoods and brackens as mirrors of each-other to illustrate the pointlessness of hereditary feuds>but then it turns out that the blackwoods are actually 10x more loyal, honourable, interesting and overall just generic good guyswhat the fuck did he mean by this?
>>88990943cope, rivercuck>>88990963I found that a bit strange as well.GRRM usually goes out of his way for there to be some historical nuance to nice or nasty houses. The good ones have all got one or two total shits in or used to have one, the bad ones have some great hero in the past.Even historically though from what we see Blackwoods have always been good guys and Brackens have practically always been dicks. Aegor Rivers was super salty and a traitor (Bloodraven's mom was noted as being nicer than his mom too), the Brackens betrayed the other Riverlords for the Ironmen, the current Bracken lord is a grasping asshole, etc.
>>88990963Are they? In the Jamie chapter it was pretty much explicitly stated that the Blackwoods only didn't surrender because they would have to do so to the Brackens, they made their men and their families starve out of spite.
>>88990963>>88990981As seen with the Starks and Boltons, Martin is much less capable of moral nuance then he thinks he is. He likes to pretend that his world is Grey, but more often than not writes Houses as 90% black or 90% white. He is also bad at playing favorites as seen with Blackwood and Bracken. The Blackwoods dindu nuffin to nobody cause Muh Noble Old Gods :D :D
>>88990834>and even daemon told them not to kill the kid just scare themthe books don't give straight answers about how much daemon was involved with blood and cheese anyway
>>88990834>>88991064Only fun thing that it did is make Daemon even more of a Valyrian schyzo purist.
I don't get how anyone can pick sides in the Dance, they're all dumb assholes
>>88990740>Thus did Queen Rhaenyra replenish her coffers, at grievous cost.Neither Aegon nor his brother, Aemond, had ever been much lovedby the people of the city, and many Kingslanders had welcomed thequeen’s return...but love and hate are two faces of the same coin, asfresh heads began appearing daily upon the spikes above the citygates, accompanied by ever more exacting taxes, the coin turned. Thegirl that they once cheered as the Realm’s Delight had grown into agrasping and vindictive woman, men said, a queen as cruel as anyking before her. One wit named Rhaenyra “King Maegor with teats,”
>>88991114>F&B retconthanks for confirming it, it sounded about right
>>88991110It's fun picking what random asshole your prefer.Only reason I like Black is because Daemon is hilarious, equal part light and darkness my ass.
>>88991110yes, but daemon is cool. greenschizos need not apply
>>88988576Depends on how non-retarded she looks. I like me a BBW, but I draw the line at fucking a retard
>>88991110I'm a Daemon man myself.
>>88991110>>88991157>>88991165I unironically like Daemon, he's intelligent, nihilistic and with a wicked sense of humorI honestly wish we had more insight on him in a non history book, like he's supposed to be also some sort of "hero" where he inspires such loyalty that the gold cloaks remain loyal to him even after years of him leaving the watch, he also seems to prefer the lowborn and smallfolk over nobles since he had many friends in king's landing
>>88991049YesBlackwoods>Tytos, seems like a v chill avuncular type>his son Lucas, who dies during the RW>Hoster, your average nerd>Benjicot and Alysanne>Bloodraven, an asshole but still cool>Aegon V's wifeMeanwhile the Brackens are all conniving assholes
>>88990756l to rDaemon, Bittersteel, Shiera Seastar, Bloodraven, Bloodraven's sisters
I still can't get over the lost potential of HOTD and we've only seen one season plus a rough idea of what they'll show which isn't a lot.>no Reach subplotShould've been in season 1 to set up the Reach mini civil war which is an obvious highlight>no Stark Civil War plotLiterally Winterfell, you can add in other parts of the North and have it be a series long plot which ends with Cregan and Bennard forgiving eachother to team up against a wildling invasion>no Emory HillPerfect minor character to link pieces of the story together. Things shouldn't just happened they should be the consequences of choices people make. How does news of Caswell's death reach Tom? Guess what the only book canon connection is. It's so fucking easy idk how no one sees it. You get a clique down trodden tragic hero, a bastard of noble birth, with a funny loyal friend that's not only a plot device but a potential fan favourite that tragically dies in a battle against the side you probably support. What more could you want? >no Ned Bean>no Hugo Vance>no Vaegon>no Triarchy subplot>no Dalton>no slave revolt story>no Rhea Royce murder mystery >no Royce conspiracy>no Braavosi politicsNo instead we have two victims of patriarchy bitch at eachother whilst one is given so much positive light and attention that the story outside of her sphere ceases to exist in the script. Literally never written or considered.
>>88990846>sure he conquered and united 7 kingdoms that had been at war for millennia, but he didn't create Louis XIV's absolute monarchy from whole cloth with no cultural tradition or any of the pre-existing societal developments needed for it to happen in 20 years of peace therefore he is a loser!
>>88991064Isn't he the one who literally says "a son for a son?"
>>88990834>>88991110Even in F&B, it's fairly obvious that we are ultimately meant to root for the Blacks, they're the underdogs, they have most of the cool characters, most of the ones in the Greens' side are cartoon villains and antagonistic, and they ultimately won in the end as their lineage continues the Targaryen dynasty while the Greens go extinct.
Shireen has targ blood through her great grandmother (and obviously descend from a targ bastard in the male line).Joncon is a secret targ.They are two of the heads of the stone dragon.But the question is; who is the third?
>>88992413bloodraven's bastard who is currently ruling skagos along with house magnar
>>88992413I assumed there was only one stone dragon and it would be Jon Snow's corpse.
>>88992413>Joncon is a secret targOf all secret Targs...
>>88991961>I still can't get over the lost potential of HOTD>he expected anything else after the culturally enriched casting and the disaster of gotlol, retards are so easy to milk
>>88992358did he order a switcharoo or did he just put a hit on him?
>>88992790Velaryon actors were unironically good though.
>>88986982Didn't he hate GOT? I recall a lot of Rome actors were spiteful about the show being cancelled but then GOT got picked up and went on to become successful.
Total targshit death.
>>88992957If the books still play out essentially as the show did then Jon would be the lone survivor of the Targaryen dynasty.
>>88992390>we are ultimately meant to root forI think this is the problem. The Greens actually had the right of it, this was even acknowledged by the Blacks who made the Green position the law of the land despite the fact they won a complete and total victory. But we're supposed to root for the Blacks because... reasons? Gurm wants to pretend his setting is morally grey, but then makes it very obvious which position was "correct" one in the end, often via genocide. Which renders the entire exercise pointless. Aegon III marrying Aegon II's daughter gave an ending where both sides could claim victory and it was up to the reader to decide then it got changed to; lol green extinction.
>>88992838>Velaryon actors were unironically good though.
>>88992980Buy that logic Aegon VI is invincible since the show can't hurt him.
>>88993017>Aegon VI is invincible>Triglycerides, son! They harden in response to physical trauma!
>"Ser Jaime?" Even in soiled pink satin and torn lace, Brienne looked more like a man in a gown than a proper woman. "I am grateful, but . . . you were well away. Why come back?">A dozen quips came to mind, each crueler than the one before, but Jaime only shrugged. "I dreamed of you," he said.Beautiful. Based, even.
>>88992838they can go be good in some epic story about african heroes
>>88993192Who cares. The Velaryons were subvalyrian jews who probably smellt of fish at all times any way.
>>88993267I do, now back to kekkit, kike
>>88992980What if it turns out Jon isn't actually Rhapegars son?
>>88993385>RhapegarsShut up Stark, we all know your House words; Winter is Cumming
>>88993368Lmfao. Culture warrior got done in by wordfilters.
>>88993385He gives into his Stark genes and starts acting like a typical Velaryon (rape)
>>88990834finally someone said it out loud. Even in the book I got the feeling that Germ was wanking off the Blacks, especially in the final stages of the war. Even all the cool characters are on the Blacks side>>88990875>>88990915They're like a reverse house Manderly. What ungrateful cunts. And the fat man tries so hard to get us to root for them
>>88990963>>88990981wasnt it the blackwood faggots who overthrew the teagues and brought in the tyrannical durrandons, leading to the riverland ruled by foreign tyrants for centuries?
>greens kvetching againnever gets old
>>88985045I went into Dune thinking it was asoiaf in space with the landsraad and the great houses and spice economy and bene gesserit and shit and was unhappy with the result. Maybe its a good book but its not what I was looking for.
>>88994011not really, the teages were always disliked by the riverlanders, the straw that broke the camels back was them trying to suppress the old gods worship with help of the faith militant in the riverlands, leading to the tullys, vances and blackwoods rose up in rebellion. the blackwoods were related to the durrandons in marriage at the time so lord blackwood called the storm king to help him which lead to the stormlands annexing the riverlands
>Harren surrenders or dies so his heir can surrender towards Aegon>Hoares continue buck breaking the Ironborn>by the time the books take place the old way has been completly extinguishedugh... what could have been...
>>88990502Just empty as fuck, nothing ever happens. No rebellions, no schemes, no factions. I thought holding the iron throne was boring in CK2 but they've actually managed to make it worse. Releasing with only two bookmarks after THREE YEARS of development is nothing short of embarrassing too.
It's settled, then. Blackwoods VASSALS, it's time to BEND THE KNEE. Aegon II and Daemon I are the rightful kings btw.
>>88994621Every time a Greenfag posts, the thread goes dead. It's like fucking pottery.
>>88994791Its because everyone here is kneeling for the rightful king and hes pulling a stalin and making us kneel for an uncomfortably long time
>>88994129Yeah, that was exactly the same for me. I've read until the third book then made peace with the fact that this series wasn't for me. The setting and factions felt wasted, it seems like there was so much potential there, but instead half the books are comprised of pretentious ''galaxy brain'' internal monologues that deliver the same ideas and messages again and again. The factions are a joke for the most part and the characters are incredibly boring except for Jessica and Stilgar, maybe.
>>88990981>Aegor Rivers was super salty and a traitorBut he was in the right. Blackfyre was the legitimate heir since Daeron was really Aemon's bastard. That's another thing Grrm likes to do, make the faction that has just cause be a big meanie poo poo head that is just abusing things like "justice" and "law" to enrich themselves.
>>88993176That entire chapter was perfect, and that was a perfect closer line.
>>88991060Yeah, Boltons don't have any "good" characters that we know of, do they?Makes that OC Bolton Dunk n Egg story I wrote that much more important.
>>88991060The freys are a good example of this, being cartoonishly evil. And nearly all the Westermen, especially at the start of the series are evil bloodthirsty goons
How would /asoiaf/ solve the Ironborn Question? Let's say you're Jon Arryn, and Robert has been convinced that this rebellion was the last straw. Ironborn culture needs to be extinguished, how do you go about it? Keep in mind, you don't want to anger the realm over perceived favoritism.
>>88995015My own pick for who gets what:>PykeWestermen>SaltcliffeDornish>Great WykReachmen>Old WykWas going to say The North but due to the religious significance of the island, perhaps it should be given to someone more zealous, maybe Thoros of Myr or an uber devout Faith of the Seven worshipper>OrkwoodNortherner. Maybe a Forrester, or a cadet dynasty. >BlacktydeValemen? >HarlawRiverlanders>Lonely LightSistermenAlso, I think it would be hilarious if the Codds somehow survived in this new system.
>>88993017That's my boy, dodging bad adaptations, prophecies and death!
>>88995015Go out of your way to favour nobles who are closer to the mainland in culture or religion like the blacktydes, harlaws or the botleys. Dispossess and exile Old Way-leaning nobles like the Greyjoys. Bring in riverlander, westermen and northener lords and give them castles taken away from undesirable ironmen lords, and settle peasants from the north, westerlands and riverlands in those areas. Destroy the Iron fleet partially and add whats left to the royal fleet. Marginalise and outlaw the religion of the drowned god. And most importantly, get a volmark (since theyre the closest to the hoares), give him a castle on sea dragon point (and take it away from the starks, since ned is your bro), and proclaim him as the new lord paramount. Now every time the iron islanders want something done they have to sail all the way to the mainland, making them increasingly dependent. It probably will take time, but this is a somewhat more peaceful way then say, the Cersei solution
>>88995081>Go out of your way to favour nobles who are closer to the mainland in culture or religion like the blacktydes, harlaws or the botleysI said your job was to extinguish Ironborn culture, you're off to a bad start
>>88994955>there are people who actually believe this kind of AKSHULLY HAHA TWIST shit
>>88995096??. You can only extinguish culture by replacing it with another, in this case, mainland westerosi culture. Unless your goal is to genocide them
>>88995110Yeah, and leaving native rulers in charge isn't a great way to go about it. Plus, the houses in general aren't as progressive as their current leaders are.
>>88995099What? It's not some fringe theory that the guy with 15 bastards had his one "trueborn son" not really be his kid.
>>88995015just give it too the Norfmen. if they can survive in the shithole that is the north then they should survive in the shithole that is the Iron Isles. also spare house Codd and make them Lord Paramount because it would be funny but make sure they convert too the Seven.
>>88995137Yes I know and it's retarded. He actually has two trueborn sons and is the one who started the rumor himself because he was an asshole. But people like to believe this either because muh underdogs or because of muh twist. It's not a twist when you twist everything, it's just stupid.
>>88995165>He actually has two trueborn sonsWiki says he has one son, one daughter, and two unnamed twins. Plus 15 bastards>It's not a twist when you twist everything, it's just stupid.Yeah, but that's George's style. Get mad at him, not at me for figuring it out
>>88995127Ah but if we only use foreigners then that would lead to even more rebellions and problems. Thats why I took the middle route, bring in mainlander lords to replace the more troublesome ironiggers, and keep the good obedient ones, because if you punish everyone, everyone unites against you, but if you keep collaborators and reward them, any resistance loses steam and becomes divided. That, and the guys you showed mercy will probably be more zealous in stamping out resistance
>>88995242I don't know, I think the Mongol method of dealing with freedom fighters worked the best.
>>88995184>Yeah, but that's George's stylecant argue with that. ASOIAF is filled with so much weird ntr shit for some bizarre reason
>>88995254At the cost of depopulating entire countries, yeah. But we're not doing the Cersei solution, we're still trying to rule over the iron isles. Its the culture that needs to go, not the people. This is a cultural war, not a physical one
>>88995264You don't have to get rid of everyone, grassroots rebellions tend to stop pretty quickly when they realize their whole village will die if they rebel.
>>88995184Yeah, my bad, sorry about the first part. How many secret parentage twists are there though? Just because Jon Snow has some secret parentage/ mother rumours floating around him in and out universe doesn't mean everyone is a secret bastard of someone else. You didn't figure out anything, you're just going with the most popular theories.
>>88995299>do the tywin strategy>look away for two seconds>another rebellion>solve it with the tywin strategy>look away for two seconds>another rebellion>solve it with the tywin strategy>look away for two seconds>another rebellion>solve it with the tywin strategy>look away for two seconds>another rebellionIn the end your governors end up like the teagues. And keeping some of the old nobility on board is a way of saying "you can get on our good side if you abandon Old Way shit and pull yourself up by your bootstraps"
>>88995335Also yeah, whatever, Cersei's kids. But maybe at one point you have to stop and look at the characters involved too and don't give me the "no one is perfect, moment of weakness etc" argument.
Name my heirI was thinking of>Bohemond>Balian>Baldwin>Barristan
>>88995382Baldwin Bolton sounds the best.
>>88995348Is that really a secret parentage twist when Bran catches the twins in the act near the beginning of the series?
>>88994534Pity, but maybe it will have two more bookmarks in a couple of years? I'm not really interested in it to be honest, I'm still having fun with CK2. Just as I thought I'd get bored after 50 years of rule in a millenium-old Targ dynasty, I was first declared incapable by my master of laws, who then took the Iron Throne and proceeded to lose the Iron Islands like a retard. I luckily still had the Southern and Eastern Isles, Myr and a couple of places from Slaver's Bay, so I just murdered my way back up to the succession line and now I'm ruler of nearly everything again. Boy, was it stressful, I was 68 and my great-granddaughter heir was 6 and at some point we were holding each other's heirs more or less hostage.
>>88995392Alright, I already have a Barristan, Balian, and Bohemond around, I was just planning on those becoming the new repeating names of my dynasty, alongside a few other old Bolton ones like Belthasar and knightly ones like Roland.
If the Unsullied get their nuts cut off while still children, they wouldn't have a proper puberty and would remain weak and effeminate, right? How the fuck does that make them better soldiers? Or was Georgy just trying to show how hardcore they are without thinking it through?
>>88992790I hated the casting decision because it was retarded. Raceswapping damages the world building and confuses people who know about the genealogical past of the Targaryens in the show>they should all be brown alreadyThey didn't even need to have raceswaps to fill their diversity quotas if they wrote a better story that didn't cut stuff out. The stepstones story is an easy excuse to add a non white guys into the script in the early parts of the series. I'm pretty sure Ned Bean could be black and he's an easy show villain. Hugo Vance has a literal mini army of black guys that could have decent screentime in the last two seasons of the war. The regency seasons have Sandoq which is an easy fan favourite with a cool fight scene. You can way more non white people when it's the Daughters War subplot in the later seasons where you can Black Trombo and his men back in the story.Sure it is a lot less than the diversity George had in the main series but it's what we're working with.
>>88995670This point has been brought up a 1000 times by retards who haven't read the books. Unsullied ARE weaker individually. They're shit in a fighting pit and everyone in the books knows the reason is they don't have balls. No amount of training can fix it. What the unsullied have is discipline and unity when fighting in formation. They don't flee, they don't break formation, they don't act out of emotion in the battle. That's what they were trained for and that's the only thing they're actually good at.
>>88993176>Jaime tells Steelshanks they have to go back to Harrenhall>''Are you insane, Kingslayer?''>'I need a Hero'' by Bonnie Tyler starts blastingAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!
>>88995957I didn't know that, sorry. It's been years since I've read the books.
>>88995927There's the problem right there, if the black or poc rep was exclusively in the Triarchy then they would basically all be minor characters and bad guys which is a big no-no nowadays.
>>88985651I keep forgetting Bloodraven has full blooded sisters
>>88996074Black Trombo is literally in Westeros during the Dance. Sandoq is in Kings Landing. Both are on the good side. The example summary of the Hugo Vance story with his sellswords I gave in other threads is the perfect mini subplot for these diversity bandits.>>88996068I hope they get annihilated in Winds.
>>88996087>Their only names are unnamed twins
>>88996157mya and gwenys. I don't think they're twins.
>>88996156Trombo is such a minor character that even the book apparently doesn't know what happened to him twice. Sandoq is Aegon III's regency right? Doubt the show is going to cover that period, maybe a brief flash forward to Aegon reuniting with Viserys at the very end.
>>88996175The way I would've done the show would've been very different and I gave some examples here >>88991961 The main issue is the show has or will cut basically all the potential subplots. One of them being the Hugo Vance story. Long story short >the Vances don't get along>Atranta took most of the soldiers>Tristan Vance is forced to hire sellswords during peace time to fulfill basic duties at Wayfarer's rest>he doesn't have much so he hires cheap unwanted Myrish sellswords for guard work>they teach Hugo to speak Valyrian and spend a lot of time with him >Westermen are about to attack>Black Trombo refuses to fight and wants free passage home>Tristan accepts it and goes off with the household knights to help Lord Piper>Tristan dies in battle>Pate brings his body home>Young Hugo is now Lord>begs Black Trombo to not leave him>offers them money he doesn't have>they accept it's not because of the money since they know there isn't any >they ride out but they'll fight using their own tactics>guerilla tactics against Criston during the Crossed Elms episode>they don't follow him out of the woods>meet up with the other riverlords>buddy moment with the Lads>Black Trombo and his men receive snide remarks from some knights (Yh I'm adding a racism lense)>Hugo defends his men who apologise since he's a Lord>Hugo decides to sit and eat with his men instead of with the other highborns>Myrish tactics again during the Kingsroad>Black Trombo and his men are leaving on a ship after the war in Kings Landing>Hugo takes out a massive loan and hands all the gold to Black Trombo and the men>they give it all back>"We fought the dragons for you Lord Vance, no golden dragon is worth that honour">sad tears hug fairwellTell me that wouldn't be the ideal subplot for modern Hollywood. Don't worry they have money from working with Tristan and some spoils of war. They'll fight during the Daughters War too with The Stormbreakers and Wolf Pack
>>88996396I wonder how cringe the Lads are going to be in the show
>>88995927The Dance is easily the weakest story they could have adapted anyway. There are much better stories they should have gone with.
>>88996500Name the better stories. >>88996473They won't get enough screentime anyways so who cares. Even Daeron might not even get 30 minutes total.
>>88996473>kermit tullyYou reminded me how bad the writing has gotten:>anime-tier characters>muppet names>riverlords wrecking the westerlands, reach and stormlands with no losses of their own>roddy the ruin's secret ability is "charge the enemy head on multiple times while outnumbered and win anyway"It honestly reads like fanfiction by Elio and Linda.
>>88996517The Hedge Knight, the Sworn Sword and the Mystery Knight, for starters. Dumb cuck.
>>88996517Dunk and Egg, the Conquest, the Blackfyre Rebellions, pretty much any other major event as they tend to be better-written.
>>88996523The Riverlords section makes no sense with how Aemond is supposedly burning everything. The worst part is in Aegon's conquest when shit got burned, they stayed ruined. Why weren't there multiple Harrenhals? How did they manage to raise an army and keep it sustained?
>>88996538>>88996542Dunk and Egg tales as of right now can't even fit in a 10 episode series. They're better as movies so I wouldn't even count them. The conquest is literally just action with basically zero story. The blackfyre rebellion story could be better if there was enough source material on it. The vague references around the books just won't cut it. If George drops Fire and Blood 2 then sure but until then that's not a better story to adapt since there's not much to adapt at all. >>88996553>doesn't know about the Aemond has dementia theoryOnce you see it you can't unsee it.
>>88996523desu I think the fundamental problem is that the Dance of the Dragons, as a story and setting, isn't actually that good or interesting
>>88996575Meh, I disagree. There’s enough story in any of them for at least 2-3 seasons of adventure.Meanwhile the Dance went from being a grey story to boring ass black and white where the black side is retarded and constantly loses while the white side is retarded but with a white hat on and loses despite winning. It’s dumb shite that would have benefited from GRRM not wasting time with F&B for plebs.
>>88996575Have to agree to disagree then. The Dance is too retarded and the writing is slapdash on it, in part because of GRRM's retcons. The fact this conversation is coming on the tail of a conversation about how the Dance's adaptation confirms this.
>>88996582Its interesting, but its not good. At all. I remember when i read the main series I thought it was perfect storytelling and I couldnt see any of the flaws until i reread it several times. But when I read fire and blood I immediately wrinkled my nose. There was a noticeable drop in quality not even "le unreliable narrator" could justify
>>88996582Like other anons have said, the Dance isn't that interesting, there really aren't any characters to root for. The only character I cared about was Cregan Stark, and he won't clean house until the end.The ambiguity of events originally in the story from the novels and The Princess and the Queens is now ignored, which was one of the poor retcons in Fire and Blood.The story is now just "Rhaenyra was right but died" and everyone is an idiot so that can happen. It went to shit despite the same author's original nuanced writing suggesting no one was in the right.>>88996607It *was* interesting. Fire & Blood killed it, as you say.
>>88996601>>88996623>GRRM originally establishes that Rhaenyra went down in history as a would-be usurper>even her own sons and their descendants chose not to rehabilitate her image or count her as a monarch>later rewrites the story so her followers were fanatically loyal to her memoryNow his line of kings doesn't make sense. In the next version of the Dance the Blacks win so decisively there's no reason why they didn't count Rhaenyra as a monarch after she sat the Iron Throne. Maegor was counted despite being worse. Her own two sons could have decreed she ruled and included her. Now it just looks like they (and their successors) all hated her. And don't even get me started on Aegon III's silly two weddings. All the writing goes off the tracks towards the end.What the fuck was GRRM thinking?
>>88996582Gurrm needed some kind of Deus ex to make the fight between greencels and blackcels equal.Literally the entire plot of the dance is greencel Deus ex after Deus ex>And then he... Magically Le escaped, same as his chicken Dragon!>And then they.... Switched Le sides!!>And then the.... Dragons were le killed!!!And so on
>>88973875The last act in kings landing by the blacks in the show was literally a massacre of smallfolk done purely to spite the greens. The level of black favoritism in the show is getting stupid.
>>88996654The only explanation I can think of is just favouritism. He took his favourite characters and made them the cool badass heroes, and abandoned the whole "human heart in conflict with itself and "no character is safe from death" and grey morality schtick. Im starting to believe that he was more involved in the decline of GoT than we think
>>88996654Maybe because acknowledging her would strengten the precedent of older women having priority over men in the line of succession, and no one wants that, not ever her descendants.
>>88996671The ending where Rhaenyra comes to Dragonstone only to find Aegon and his buddies waiting for her was cool and badass to read, but it was such an ass pull
>>88996677I guess I don't get why he decided to start picking favourites in background characters after he'd already established how the conflict had to go. Seems weird, or maybe he's just becoming more of a romantic as he ages.>>88996690But why? Her being queen further legitimises them and her own heirs are the ones who bring Dorne into the realm and marry into House Martell. Why care about bringing women up in the succession?
The problem with the Dance is that it's one big clusterfuck and a lot of the character's fates are deliberately unsatisfying because "historical accuracy" or something, it is ideal for TV in that it's one big budget spectacle fest that appeals to stanning culture.There's also the problem of inconsistent dragon power levels. HOTD is going to suffer from Sanderson's Law in that since dragon's abilities and weaknesses aren't clearly defined, a lot of battles involving them are going to come off as heavily contrived when depicted onscreen.
>>88996671So I'm going to go ahead and point out I'm pro-Rhaenyra, and I've said this before, but the writing for the war makes little to no sense.A major issue is the incompetence of the Greens, which stretches believability. To summarize:1. The Greens consistently lose top-tier commanders in almost all their major engagements (Red Fork-Jason Lannister, First Tumbleton-Ormund Hightower, Butcher's Ball-Criston Cole, Kingsroad-Borros Baratheon) whereas the Blacks almost always lose only 8-bit characters such as Lords Darry and Mallister in the Muddy Mess.On top of all that, Aegon II is incapacitated for most of the war after just one battle (Rook's Rest) and Aemond is an idiot.2. We see the Blacks use ambush (Butcher's Ball), flanking (Fishfeed), scorched earth tactics (Riverlands), and shock tactics (Winter Wolves). The Greens, on the other hand, are never really shown to use any proper tactics.3. The Green victories we have all come down to luck (Ulf and Hugh at First Tumbleton), literal deus ex machina (Daeron the Daring at the Honeywine), or them taking such hideous losses that the victory is Pyrrhic and the army in question out of the fighting for the rest of the war (Three Daughters at the Gullet, First Tumbleton). The Blacks, on the other hand, always win decisive victories (Fishfeed, Butcher's Ball, Second Tumbleton, Kingsroad).4. The Greens lose even when they greatly outnumber their opponents (Kingsroad).5. We never see the Greens put to use their greater wealth.6. A lot of Green victories are implied in throw-away lines (Lord Lefford in TWOIAF, Ormund Hightower in TPATQ)7. Because of all the above most of the Green commanders come off as toothless chumps. I could buy maybe one or two of them being this dumb but not all of them. The Kingmaker and Borros Baratheon are the worst examples of this IMO.Will the show be better written when it comes to the war than the books?
>>88996691It's one of the few ass-pulls that works on several levels, but especially depends on how the Dance was originally written (with Rhaenyra not being particularly loved). Now it's just like "lol u dead bitch".
>>88996709>Will the show be better written when it comes to the war than the books?Yeah buddy, I think every single one of us here knows the answer to that
>>88996697>Why care about bringing women up in the succession?Like I said, because no one wants that. Most Targ kings don't want to leave the realm in the hands of their daughters, most Lords don't like that idea as well, and it could also result in another civil war. Better pretend like the thing never happened and move on.
>Rhaegar leaves his Stark wife with a guy known as "The White Bull"what if Jon is really Gerold Hightower's son?
>>88996709>>88996726It'll be about the same although the show might be better in that it'll compress and centralize on a group of characters we actually know instead of dedicating pages to random lords and knights that get introduced and then die in the same battle.
>>88996697Viserys III uses Aegon II's legal precedents to inherit over Aegon III's daughters.No one wants women in charge. Greens lost the succession, but they won with the law. That's why Aegon II is remembered as king and Rhaenyra as a traitor even by her own descendants. Will Dany change this? That's what I wonder about.
>>88996761*Viserys IIlol my bad Viserys III was the sorefoot king
>Kickstarts the war that results in the destruction of the Targaryen's greatest power>Doesn't actually participate for most of the Dance, fucks off to fight in a completely unrelated war>When he returns, he immediately gets killed by teenage boys named after the muppets from Sesame StreetUm... based?
>>88996697>>88996761Rhaenyra wasn't fighting for the rights of women in Westeros in general though, she was fighting for her specific claim to be the heir of the Iron Throne and she basically won in that regard.
>>88996796No, she lost in that regard. She won in that her *sons* were able to inherit, and they chose not rehabilitate her or acknowledge that her claim was ever valid.
>>88996796doesnt she tell a woman asking to rule a crownland city to fuck off, and later on near the end of the dance she has to hide in that same city which is now ruled by that same woman since all her male relatives died in battle?
>>88996777>>When he returns, he immediately gets killed by teenage boys named after the muppets from Sesame StreetElio and Linda are so based for including the Muppet references.
>Daeron is obsessed with fighting Dorne>Baelor is obsessed with the Faith>both were written that way back before GRRM had it so Aegon II's daughter died after marrying Aegon III but before they could have kidsthey're both so Reach-influenced I wonder if originally they weren't meant to be descended of Alicent Hightower. it wouldn't have mattered either since both their lines end.
>>88996810SHE WAS THEIR QUEEN, THEY OWED HER FEALTY AND THEY BETRAYED HER!
>>88996767LITERALLY the only thing that matters are the dragons. This is why I think that if Dany vs Aegon ever happens this century, it won't be girl vs boy like in the original Dance, but the symbol of authority/authenticity/super realness aka dragons, like the sword was for the Blackfyre rebellions. Or at least the first one.
>>88996804But her bloodline continues the Targaryen dynasty, literally all Targaryens going forward after the Dance descend from her.
>>88996839Yeah, that's what I said. Her heirs succeeded, but her claim did not: >>88996804>She won in that her *sons* were able to inherit, and they chose not rehabilitate her or acknowledge that her claim was ever valid.
>>88996837Im pretty sure they died fighting FOR rhaenyra (could be wrong) so Rhaenyra at that point is living on nothing but the generosity of a woman who she dispossessed out of inheritance and whos male relatives all died fighting for Rhaenyras bloody war
>>88996864You're probably right, I just wanted to use a Tony meme
>>88996823I kind of viewed it as Aegon III's children being starved of love from their father so they resorted to ambitious goals during their reigns to earn attention and praise everywhere else.
>>88996598Did we read the same novels? You're lucky if you get 10 hours out of all the stories together. The only way you get more is if you make the Dunk and Egg tales a subplot within a greater blackfyre show. Either way you'd have to do a lot of OC writing on things like their time in Dorne and their journey back. >>88996601>>88996623You'd have to do some OC writing to make it even close to the main series and the show runners didn't do that. They took F&B which was a slim skewed summary of the events and cut parts from that. I personally think they just don't have the ability to do it even if they tried because they don't understand the franchise. This is really the best they can do. But if anyone went into it by looking for theories and even trying to emulate George they'll get good stories out of the fringe theories. The Reach is the best part of the Dance from the pre war politicking to reconciliation at the end of the war, and we will never see it on screen because they didn't even know there was anything to write.
>>88996951>Did we read the same novels? You're lucky if you get 10 hours out of all the stories together.6 hours is what they're aiming for apparently or more specifically six episodes with each season adapting each novella, could have a shortened runtime each ep like Barry.
>>88995335>How many secret parentage twists are there thoughThe whole basis of ASOIAF is Cersei's treasonous incest, and Rhaenera birthing Strong bastards is a major contributor to the Dance. Bronn's step-son is really someone else's. There's the whole Jon Snow parentage thing. Aegon VI is arguably an example, maybe. The Tarths got cucked by Dunc, maybe. >>88995336>another rebellionWhen has Tywin had a rebellion in the Westlands?
>>88996671It all makes sense if you know about the Maester plot and Darth Larys. >>88996709>Blacks almost always lose only 8-bit characters Forest Frey? Tristan Vance? Roderick Dustin? Elmo Tully? Pate Longleaf? Jacerys? Two dragon riders switching sides? Owen Costayne? Addam Velaryon? Samwell Blackwood? Tom Flowers? Luthor Largent? Lorent Marbrand? Petyr Piper?The blacks lost their entire leadership to the war. The only ones standing were some newly made lords who were kids, a widow, and the ones who sat out the war like Cregan and Corlys who was fucking imprisoned by Rhaenyra. The Greens still had some leadership left over btw with the remaining Caltrops like Unwin Peake. >The Greens, on the other hand, are never really shown to use any proper tactics. Proper siege tactics at Longtable, setting up an aerial ambush trap on Rhaenys at Rook's Rest, taking Tumbleton by having infiltrators open the gates. Sure it's a lot less battle tactics than the blacks but the greens used more political manoeuvring to prevent the Vale and North from commiting to the war early on if you believe the Green Putschs theory, they also managed to get two dragon riders to switch sides and plan a successful coup despite having a saboteur within their ranks. >The Green victories we have all come down to luckSack of Duskendale? Battle at the Red Fork? Battle at Acorn Hall? Siege of Longtable? Sack of Bitterbridge? >We never see the Greens put to use their greater wealth. The money was moved away from King's Landing and caused the riots that ended Rhaenyra's reign. She hit such a low she sold her crown for a ticket to Dragonstone. >A lot of Green victories are implied in throw-away linesBecause its unnecessary to go into detail about solid victories. Do you expect George to write pages about how Daeron and Ormund steam rolled through the Reach with a dragon"...enforcing the submission of the Rowans of Goldengrove, the Oakhearts of Old Oak, and the Lords of the Shield Islands..."
>>88995957It also helps that that Dothraki charge straight towards them like retards instead of using horse archery and harassment tactics.
>>88996975So they're going to pad it with fluff. I can see 6 half an hour episodes but nothing more without adding other stuff in. Based on the attitude with the Dance and Regency I highly doubt they're going to do OC writing. They'll cut stuff, merge them all together into one season and abuse time jumps again.
>>88997212Time jumps between the stories are inevitable considering they're set months or even years apart from each other
>>88997123>When has Tywin had a rebellion in the Westlands?This has to be bait. Where's house Reyne and Tarbeck mate? >>88997225If its a subplot within a greater blackfyre series then it's smoother. The stories you can do with some OC work are>Ashford tourney>crazy lady Vaith and desert stuff>pirate fights and Oldtown>Standfast>Whitewalls and their journey through the riverlands>shewolves and the wallIts touching 50+% OC writing territory and we know how that went last time with GOT.
>>88997123I think you misunderstood. The conversation was about whether methods like Tywins would be successful in quelling uprisings in a recently conquered country
>>88996951Did we? There's all sort of side adventure stuff they mention but never go into. Dunk and Egg has plenty of content for adaptation.
>>88997171>names a bunch of 8-bit charactersSo you prove him correct?>Because its unnecessary to go into detail about solid victoriesGRRM did it for Black victories lol. What a nonsense post you made.
>>88997491Arent we on page 6?
>>88997511Anon was extra cautious this time.
>>88997171your answers are really nitpicky lmao>The money was moved away from King's Landing and caused the riots that ended Rhaenyra's reign. She hit such a low she sold her crown for a ticket to Dragonstone.But that isnt the Greens using their wealth. That is the Greens not allowing the Blacks to use their wealth. Were are the massive mercenary armies they couldve amassed?
>>88995071>fellow Aegon VI enjoyer