How do you deal with ambiguous morality in systems where morality matters ? (for spells and stuff)I had a character :>Spare a bandit from death>In order to interrogate him>And then use his soul to create a cursed item>Which he purified with the cleric and then gave to our fighterAnd it all makes sense for his character.How the fuck do I judge this kind of action ?
>>88096694why does it need to be judged
>>88096699Alignment, because the player does this kind of shenanigans all of the time.And I can't really punish the player because his character inner logic is consistent.>Avoid conflict>People are tool and should be used to their maximum potential>Dislike unnecessary death>Evil is inefficient, being good has much more benefits both socially and in general.
>>88096694If morality matters, don't make it ambiguous.
>>88096719>Rulesystem has alignments which are objective forces in the game unverse>Muh moral relativismThat character cannot weasel his way out of evil just because he can rationalize his actions, dehumanising people is evil, entrapping souls is cartoon villain tier evil.Also fucking stop playing (i assume) d&d and derivatives if you don't like how it deals with morality.
>>88096694>>88096719What you describe is practically textbook Lawful Evil. Him recognizing that Good is generally more advantageous has no bearing on his personal alignment.People rarely think of themselves as Evil, and even the most Evil person generally prefer to live in Good societies. There is no conflict here.
>>88096694What system is this and what levels are you playing, that you fight low level trash like bandits, but also steal souls and mold them into purified items? (Usually higher level shit)Also:>yet another alignment thread
>>88096823I'm paraphrasing to make it easier it to understand — the 'bandits' are actually the men of a powerful Robber Baron whom the Authority has sent the party to destroy.
>>88096853So what is the game system and what level are the characters?
>>88096694It's objectively Evil. Simple as. It's fine of the PC is playing Lawful Evil -- they have a code they follow that helps them work with others and keep their Evil tendencies targeted toward people the part would be killing or capturing anyway.
>>88096820>>88096871Well that what I was going for anyway. It's just I wasn't sure if it would be neutral or even chaotic.>>88096823Level 5 wizard, pathfinder 1e and basically >>88096853
>>88096694They should free the soul after the campaign is done or it's an evil action.
Since it seems that you have troubles to understand how alignments work and what they represent op pic related is a simple yet effective way of explaining them.You're welcome.
>>88096915Thank you Anon.
sounds like a bad case of dnd brainrot
>>88096694>>Spare a bandit from deathevil action>>In order to interrogate himneutral action (unless torure was used)>>And then use his soul to create a cursed itemevil action>>Which he purified with the cleric and then gave to our fighterneutral action>sums up to:Neutral Evil
>>88096694>>Spare a bandit from death>>In order to interrogate him>>And then use his soul to create a cursed item>>Which he purified with the cleric and then gave to our fighterThat's obviously evil bro
>>88096957>Spare a bandit from death>evil actionuhh
>>88096694>How do you deal with ambiguous morality in systems where morality matters ?by not playing D&D
>>88097312Exempting criminal from deserved punishment is evil action. I should not need to explain this.
>>88096957>>>In order to interrogate him >neutral action (unless torure was used) ... but retard-kun, I thought, "exempting criminals from deserved punishment is an evil action"
>>88096694Review the Pathfinder Core Rulebook Page168 (Changing Alignments).You seem to have a "Forcing characters into boxes" problem or "PC's must abide by their predesignated script".This is not how Alignment works and can lead to a lot of confusion when you think a change in Alignment is necessary.When you "judge" actions you also have to judge INTENTIONS and remember that committing morally repugnant acts then making excuses as to why those acts are "good" is also what evil/bad people do. >How the fuck do I judge this kind of action ?You don't have to judge every action. Simply make note of how often the player/character is acting in a manner that is not consistent with his/her current Alignment.When the PC is PERSISTENTLY acting in a manner that is more consistent with another Alignment then a Alignment shift is often warranted.
>>88097394Mercy is good, anon
>>88097394Even if the laws of the land demand the death of any bandit, sparing him is at most a chaotic neutral action.Also he clearly wasn't spared in the first place, but interrogated and then killed
>>88097683Mercy is for the blameless. The guilty are to be punished. If they don't want to be punished it's proof they don't repent their misdeeds and they need to be punished more severely, not less.
>>88096694Ambiguity is anathema to gameplay.>Spare a bandit from deathDepends on what that bandit did and their willingness to reform.>In order to interrogate himDepends on what methods were used during interrogation.>And then use his soul to create a cursed itemDepends on the implications of using souls, what happens to the soul/what the soul experiences, and what it means to create and use "cursed" items.>Which he purified with the cleric and then gave to our fighterDepends on what it means to purify something powered/created by a soul and whether or not the soul is still present during purification and what happens to the soul afterwards.It's all a load of nonsense. I'd rather play games than to keep trying to draw new lines and move posts during the game.
>>88096694Look at the end result and the methods, at the end of the day he killed a man and forged his immortal soul into a weapon (which I assume damns him to oblivion)
>>88097731>Mercy is for the blameless.No it isn't you absolute tool. Mercy is explicitly something you don't deserve. Mercy is a diversion of justice. The blameless don't deserve mercy, they deserve justice. Mercy is explicitly about getting better than you deserve.
>>88097829>Ya' know the objective justice>That we all know and agree uponAny just society would cut your tongue faggot.
>>88097829No, he makes a good point.Mercy for the perpetrator comes at the expense of justice for the victim.Who are you deny a victim justice out of your selfishness, which is exactly what your moral grandstanding is.
>>88096719Let's talk D&D. Law vs Chaos is respect for legal and cultural codes. Good vs Evil is Selflessness vs Selfishness. If your goal is to use the laws and norms of society to your own ends specifically so every action you take always is a benefit to you then you're Lawful Evil.
>>88098054>Mercy for the perpetrator comes at the expense of justice for the victim. Shooting somebody doesn't ressurect or unrape anybody else.
>>88097312It is, actually. D&D operates on the idea of Manichean Good and Evil - to not kill a decisively Evil person, to allow them to continue to exist and perpetuate Evil, is in itself an Evil act. D&D doesn't operate on the Christian Ethic where murder is always an objective wrong. If it did, the entire Paladin Class would be non-viable.
>>88098251The point is not to un-do the crime, its to show everyone else who is still alive what happens to the perpetrators of that crime and thus lessen future instances of the crime. You're not supposed to save the criminal's life, Anon. You don't change people, they remain set in their ways with few exceptions. What you do is kill problem people and replace them with new people in the form of new generations. The vast majority of cultures, at the vast majority of times have understood this, and D&D isn't supposed to be based on post-enlightenment can't-we-all-just-get-along thinking.
>>88096694>>Spare a bandit from deathgood>>In order to interrogate himneutral or evil depending on interrogation tactics>>And then use his soul to create a cursed itemvery very evil>>Which he purified with the cleric and then gave to our fighternonsensical, you are perverting the soul of the dead to give something magic. The only way to purify it would be to release the soul
>>88096694It shouldn't be possible to ‘purify’ cursed items and keep their perks. It makes no sense.
>>88098698>The point is not to un-do the crime, its to show everyone else who is still alive what happens to the perpetrators of that crime and thus lessen future instances of the crime.That's not the point of justice and it also doesn't really work that well
>>88098251>>88098698You're both wrong. Past societies didn't punish criminals in order to reform them *or* to weed them out. They punished them because they considered an evil deed was deserving of (physical or mental) pain. It's a retributive notion of justice that even in our societies is still the norm. Most ethical systems in philosophy up to very recently try to account for retribution, denying it is a moral value and having to justify punishment based on its consequences is a minority view (not saying it's wrong).
>>88097394Taking them alive and turning them in to the authorities is the good action.
>>88099022ThisAlso im guessing the fighter isn't evil, why would he use an item that contains an involuntarily trapped soul? That's like a fate worse than death just casually sitting in your pocket.
>>88099265That's presumably why it had to be "purified"
>>88099309That doesn't detract from the fighter knowing exactly what went into the process of creating the item. Someone still got their soul rended, and if the soul is completely free, why does the weapon still have enhancements?
>>88098251>Shooting somebody doesn't ressurect or unrape anybody else.You're not shooting "somebody", you are shooting the perpetrator who did the killing or raping.
>>88099387>Starting a pointless semantics argumentThat's obviously who was implied by "somebody" already.
It's ultimately evil. He didn't "spare" him to interrogate him, he simply added a step to the death. He defeated an opponent, tortured them, then used their very soul to create a cursed item. Evil. It doesn't matter how he washed his hands. If Jack shoots a man in the process of a robbery, but uses that money to buy all the kids ice cream, it's still am evil act.
>>88099399You using weaselwords to turn the perpetrator into "somebody" makes it sound like the person was uninvolved and stuff "just kinda happened".You know what you did and now doing the whole "semantics"-routine makes it more than just a little disingenuous. Just say it out loud and be done with: You care more about the murderer than the victim.
>>88099418If OP genuinely wants a reason to punish and isn't just baitposting, he needs to question how the process of purifying isn't just stripping away the whole enchantment (since it's rooted 100% in evil) and why the fighter is willing to accept a gift that cost a man his soul (perhaps he needs a negative alignment shift)
>>88099428>You using weaselwords to turn the perpetrator into "somebody" makes it sound like the person was uninvolved and stuff "just kinda happened".None of that is the fucking point you dense prick. Can you read? It's spelled out for you in clear language:>Shooting somebody doesn't ressurect or unrape anybody else.That is the point. The crime is done. It can't be undone. Christ almighty, if this is how you play paladins you're looking at a player killing waiting to happen.
>>88096957>Not killing him is evil>but torturing someone who you have a moral obligation to kill is also evilSoI have to kill evil people in a way that causes zero suffering or else I'm evil? This is a very specific moral system you have there.
>>88096694This is very obviously Chaotic Evil behavior. There isn't anything ambiguous about it. The Book of Vile Darkness explicitly defines consumption of souls to be at the top of the list of evil acts. You manipulated your own party's cleric, your personal friend, to participate in this act of Vile Darkness, presumably through deception and even out of character you are using mental gymnastics to try to rationalize it. Chaos. Chaotic Evil.I haven't even read the thread because I'm sure it will be overflowing with Anons who utterly fail to grasp this.
>>88096719>>People are tool and should be used to their maximum potentialHe's evil. That's seeing people as things. He can pretend to be as good as he likes, he's fucking evil.
>>88099372It seems like a loophole that shouldn't work, and the DM allowing it is part of the reason why the morality appears muddled.
>>88096694that screams LE to me>i'm sparring you, cooperate>now that you're useless, have a fate worse than death>hey guys, here's this cursed but useful item, good shit that helps us. i'd be more worried about the cleric knowingly rolling with it, honestly.
>>88099068It is absolutely wrong that partaking in human suffering for human suffering is wrong.>>88098698>The point is not to un-do the crime, its to show everyone else who is still alive what happens to the perpetrators of that crime and thus lessen future instances of the crimeAny analysis that has controlled variables shows that it absolutely doesn't work.
>>88099497Obviously the correct interpretation by the rules anon established would be that you need to kill them while causing the least amount of suffering. Sometimes doing Good (or at least not doing Evil) means causing suffering, but even then you can be merciful and don't do more harm than absolutely necessary. Torture crosses that line with screeching tires
>>88096694No system has such a parameter. Morality is independent from the question of cosmic alignment. There are many things which will change your cosmic alignment that have nothing to do with morality, like wearing certain clothing or holding certain items, on top of that the alignment itself is a purely physical quality which can be ignored in regards to ethical questions. Alignment changes based on the accumulation of some quasi particles that are attracted to obnoxiously specific and often contradictory behaviors, the dogma of some religions in DnDlikes then interprets this phenomenon as having moral relevance but in reality they're just deontologists with a weird set of scriptuse.In short don't worry about it unless you want to invoke the cosmic alliances angle and if that's the case just play it as that, not a moral judgement.
>>88097683>be bandit>rape, torture, and murder a dozen farmers because you're sick in the head>a party of adventurers wipes out your gang but chooses to spare you for the sake of mercy when you beg for your life>you promise to repent, leave, and once you're a safe distance away resume banditry like nothing happened>several more innocent lives are ruined before you're confronted and put down by a more decisive adventurer
>>88098677>D&D doesn't operate on the Christian Ethic where murder is always an objective wrong.Not all killing is murder, murder is specifically taking an innocent life.>If it did, the entire Paladin Class would be non-viable....and I'd really like to know what kind of Lawful Good Paladin you're playing that would be hobbled by that rule.
>>88096694>Spare a bandit from deathNeutral or Go...>In order to interrogate himYeah. Neutral.>And then use his soul to create a cursed itemEvil>Which he purified with the cleric and then gave to our fighterChaotic
>>88098677>all bandits are capital E Evil>christians think that killing people is always wrongI don't even know where to start with this one
>>88101121NOW we're getting to the moral ambiguity - but I don't think any of this played a part in OP's game. My players are obsessed with Bandit Regulars ever since one of them successfully disguised herself as one and mingled with them for a while.
>>88097312Bandits are not mere thieves, they are murderers, predators of the weak and innocent, sparing them is a sin against the world.
>>88101531if this is actually confirmed during interrogation execution is lawful neutral, but you'd be butchering Robin Hood as much as Oskar Dirlewanger.Even then, using their souls for your own purposes is lawful evil at best.
>>88101633Robin Hood was a thief, but so was the tax collector. Law and Chaos are arbitrary and impartial forces, the best route is to straddle the line and take advantage of both.
>>88101693>Law and Chaos are arbitrary and impartial forces, the best route is to straddle the line and take advantage of both.this is basically "chaos 101", usually people at least try to pretend to be something else
>>88097731Steve Ditko go and stay gonobody cares about your gay ideology
>>88097740The bandit was just an average goon serving under the BBEG.The interrogation was pretty calm, though the thief was lied to and promised he would be "spared".The cursed item was basically a cursed +1 sword and "purifying" was using banishment on the sword to remove the soul (and curse) to have a neat +1 sword.The player says he qualifies for lawful evil. But I wasn't sure since he keeps surprising me in how unorthodox he can be.
>>88100043The cleric "in game" was deceived into thinking it was just a random ass cursed sword (same for the fighter).Out of game, everyone just rolls with it because he's one of the best player at the table.
>>88106548>>88106516textbook LE, withholding "unnecessary" info that would go against him.
>>88096694>How do you deal with ambiguous morality in systems where morality matters ? (for spells and stuff)By simply throwing alignment into the trash because the concepts of good and evil are relative. Relative not in the sense absence of criteria, but in the sense that each culture has its own criteria of good and evil, so I don't need the Western moral system in my ancient Chinese setting.
>>88096694Just use the superior morality/alignment system: Dicks, Pussies, and Assholes. That character is clearly a dick.
>>88096787Harming Evil creatures is a Good action.
>>88096957purifying a cursed item is a good act
>>88099497Minimal necessary suffering, swift clean death.>>88109584By itself yes, but in this case done for entirely selfish reasons. Which drags it down to neutral.
>>88109570Even if you want to stretch definitions soul caging fuckery is unapologetically evil.
>>88098054Does this imply a victim could sacrifice their justice to provide mercy?
>>88099197Not if they're caught in the act doing what would result in a death sentence There is no ambiguity in the identity, guilt, or deserved punishment of the criminal
>>88099428>You care more about the murderer than the victim.If you're the victim I'd buy the murderer a drink
>>88096694It's evil. Not complicated. Destroying someone's immortal soul to make a temporary weapon is evil.
>>88097731That's not mercy.
>>88097731Actually if people don't want to be punished it's because they don't want to be punished. Pretty sure people usually repent because they don't want to be punished.
>>88097740>Mercy is for the blameless.You're thinking of grace, people often mistake that for mercy.Grace is kindness undeserved, mercy is revenge unsatisfied.
>>88115817>Grace is kindness undeserved, mercy is revenge unsatisfiednice line. you come up with that yourself?
>>88116326Yeah. The original line I wrote for my tattoo was "mercy is punishment undelivered", but I realized that "revenge unsatisfied" makes both lines the same exact length in typewriter text.