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Previous thread: >>88010508
>>
>>88054691
Didn't want this to get lost in the previous thread.
>>
2e: Is it usual and/or possible to find a weapon with a Striking rune, but with no Potency rune?
>>
>>88054919
Potency runes are required for striking runes, so no
>>
>>88054795
1e and 2e. What's your favorite unorthodox build?
>>
>>88054919
It is possible. Striking runes are fundamental runes, so they don't need a potency rune to be there to be applied.
But since potency runes are cheaper than striking ones, it would be very wierd to find a weapon without one.
>>
>>88054919
Potency runes only limit the number of property runes you can apply to a weapon. Striking runes are fundamental runes and aren't impacted.

It's possible to have a striking weapon without a potency rune, but it'd be highly unusual. Potency runes are lower level, and all fundamental runes are baked into game balance. Dropping a striking weapon without potency just creates a housekeeping task for players, and it's not a fun one.
>>
>>88054997
Spirit Fuse Quintessentialist, Mobile Bulwark Reliquarian, or Knight of Coins Pageant
All come online early on and go in directions usually not allowed by the class.
>>
>>88054997

1e: Improved Dirty Trick Unchained Rogue.

Blind your enemy, sneak attack with a full attack on the next round. Never need a flanking buddy. Almost nothing is immune to Blind. Only defense mode checked is CMD. Guaranteed to kill your target next turn.

Requires relatively few feats, can still do it with most archetypes, works in high or low power scale campaigns, and Dirty Trick can inflict more than just Blind all in the same feat. Don't even need a fancy expensive weapon for it. Best part is that, unlike Feint, your victim is actually blinded - so everyone else on your team can immediately benefit from it too... including the fact that blinded enemies have 50% miss chance and can't even target distant foes. Not only is it vulnerable to you, but you've almost eliminated that enemy from combat even without doing any damage to it. And you can do this every single round.
>>
>>88056070
While effective, I wouldn't call it unorthodox. You've got rogue talents specifically for blinding dirty tricks (makes it impossible to remove blind in the first round) and there's multiple archetypes that focuses on it.
>>
>>88054997
It was 1e oneshot from long time ago so I don't remember the actual build anymore, but somehow I managed to deal over hundred points of hardness bypassing damage to walls by just charging. And when I broke the wall I stunned everyone on the other side.
"I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!"
>>
>>88056519
Fuck, now I want to do this. Which class was that? Barbarian?
>>
>>88054274
>Strength is unrelated to size.
Manlet cope.
>>
>>88057266
The core was was Fighter the amount of feats required, but it had dip to barb and some other classes too
>>
How would you make or stimulate an Oni player race in 2e?
>>
>>88057965
Isn't that basically just a weeb tiefling?
>>
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Last thread had recommendations thrown around for a Nature's Fang Druid in 1e and made me wanna try one out in my next game, but I've got no experience with the archetype. What's the best way to build them if you wanna lean into the whole "Agent of Nature's Wrath" kind of thing
Pic somewhat related
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1e. I am trying to build a patient ambusher hunter and wanted to know if anyone had any advice on feats or tactics of interest, or even some interesting magic items or gear I might want or need. I've never played around with ranger traps before, so this is kind of a new world to me.
>>
>>88058075
Are you the GM?
That kind of stuff does not really work for PCs unless the GM is tailoring the campaign just for it.
>>
>>88054795
where does the Pug and and the Gangster begin?
>>
>>88058072
Depends if you wanna build off sneak attack or not.

If not, you can do a reach build, standard bow user, or double wielding strength base thanks to slayer talents.

For sneak attack, if you don't want to keep the animal companion, crocodile domain gives you a few more SA dice, and if your DM allows VMC into rogue will give you more. If you wanna keep the animal companion I'd still go VMC rogue with either a reach weapon, or grab outflank and improved outflank on your AC.
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>>88058315
you and your animal companion*
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>>88058038
Works for me.
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>>88058370
No, in this thread we're supposed to hate weebs for some random and unspecified reason!
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>>88054795
Anyone mind rating these role feats referenced off 4e, the idea is each player will choose one when they make their character as a bonus feat. This is intended to be used for a "Trapped in a Deathgame" campaign so weeb shit

Yes they are intentionally strong and break the original class conventions to allow stuff like Wizard tank or Barb with expert proficiency - I intend to balance the monster math around this
>>
>>88058102
My DM is good about trying to make sure we can all have our moments to shine and trying to make things work as fairly as possible, he encouraged me to give it a shot, so I'm confident on that front.
>>
>>88058315
What feats/Companions would you take for the non-sneak attack version of that, then?
>>
>>88058475
Talents too, I suppose
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>>88058475
Talents you can stag the ranger combat styles. Feats, just look up your usual chain depending on if your going archery, DW etc.

Companion, can't go wrong with a large cat, or wolf.
>>
1e
Do you need to be conscious for demoralize to work against you?
>>
>>88058600
Not sure about RAW, but yes RAI. The target kind of needs to have the capability to hear you calling it a cuck. The bigger question is why you're trying to demoralize something that's unconscious. Literally why bother?
>>
>>88054955
I know it seems like this would be the case, but this restriction isn't actually mentioned in the rules as far as I can remember. I think the closest it comes to saying that you need a potency rune for a striking rune is the table that shows cost for upgrading weapons, but as far as RAW go, a striking rune is a fundamental rune just like potency runes are.
>>
>>88058510
>>88058315
I wanted to try and use this idea for a bow druid build based on what was said here but realised I'd be lacking the actual good bow spells from the Ranger list.
Is there any way I can get Use Magic Device on a half elf druid without using traits? (DM is planning on running custom campaign without them)
>>
A hypothetical and mildly complex 2e question.
If I were to be a Cleric of Kabriri[Favored weapon: jaws] with the Ghoul Dedication feat[provides 1d6 Piercing jaws attack], would I be able to apply Deadly Simplicity to it using the first half, or is the second half of Deadly Simplicity just, "Specifically fuck unarmed attacks whatsoever, not just ones below 1d6 damage"?
>>
>>88059314
CRB 278 says unarmed attacks aren't weapons, so no this doesn't work.
>>
>>88054997
Tengu Ascetic Shigenjo Oracle
You basically end up playing a monk except your MAD is even worse because now you need Charisma for spellcasting.
Very funny.
>>
Thinking up a fun character concept but then realizing the rest of the group is throwing off red flags and you'll probably bail in a session or two (lmao roll20)
>>
>>88058600
Yes.
>You can only threaten an opponent in this way if they are within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you.
What's more, you can literally close your eyes (bro) and become immune to demoralize. Or stand in a Silence spell. Or wear some Smoked Goggles.
>>
>>88058409
If i am honest its all pretty bonkers and at risk of sounding like a redditor, 2e is pretty balanced for the most part with a few glaring exceptions. This just seems like your intentionally making more work for yourself by rebalancing monsters round this and kind of just reinforces the problem the game has. That being Martials having way too many Pros and very little cons while casters get fucked in the ass for daring to have access to spells at level 1. All these will do is add ontop of that.
>>
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What's the best adventure path Paizo ever made and why is it Legacy of Fire?
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>>88060832
Iron Gods because you get to punch robots.
>>
>>88060832
Never tried it. Sell me on it!
>>
scrolls only being usable by spellcasters is fucking retarded
anyone that can read a scroll should be able to activate it
>>
>>88060832
>why is it Legacy of Fire?
Why is it Legacy of Fire?
>>
>>88060832
Strange Aeons just because I love lovecraftian themes.
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>>88062088
If 2e, casters don't need even less of a purpose.

Besides, IIRC it only requires having the list, so just a casting dedication should be enough to use em?
>>
2e
Are there any rules on spellcasting through implements/weapons, so you could get their properties? Or is that beyond the scope of 2e's ruleset?
>>
>>88063200
Closest you'll get is the Magus and spellstriking, but if I was going to houserule property runes to help spells that's the direction I'd go.
>>
>>88063314
>property runes
I meant fundamental runes, but property runes might also be fun.
>>
>>88063200
Unsure of what you mean.
There are these.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=396
and wands that alter some spell functionality like this
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=372
But weapons I'm not sure about.

It's probably just spellstrike and it's imitations.
>>
>>88063331
I was just curious if there was a way to use a weapon to spellcast in order to somehow gain the properties of the magic weapon being used to spellcast, but it seems like they didn't throw casters a bone in that regard.
Unfortunate, but it is what it is.
>>
>>88063200
Nigger you can just make them up it's not hard
Like
Let there be Spell Potency fundamental runes that give +1 to spell attacks and DC per tier (if that is too much for you split them like potency and striking are, so one rune gives +1 to spell attacks and another +1 to dc)
Let their cost be the same as normal fundamental runes
Let them be inscribed on wizard's bonded item or any fucking item your caster wants, or even tattooed on their bodies

There, it's that fucking easy
Simpler still, just decree that any weapon/handwrap with potency runes can act as spellcasting implement/catalyst for same purpose
Like what is even the question, are you afraid it'll break the balance? It won't. While you're at it, let casters have their expert proficiency on lvl 5 and master on 11, there's 0 fucking reason for them having their proficiency progression stumped, it's just insult to injury
>>
1e
Does Alchemist need to draw his extracts with move action before he can drink them with standard action?
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>>88065007
It is a standard action to use an extract, mutagen, or throw a bomb. This action includes retrieving the necessary materials from the alchemist’s supplies, in the same manner as retrieving a material component is included in the act of spellcasting.
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>>88063740
im not the DM, so i was more curious if there was any way to squeeze a good caster out of pf2e in the first 10 levels
without magic items it's a massive pain in the ass
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>>88063200
The playtest had these, but back then spell attacks worked off your str/dex like in 1e and weapon potency went up to +5 so the whole math was completely different.
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>>88065221
Does that apply also to Infusions?
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>>88066107
that's a grayer area, and depends on your DM
personally I've ruled that in the past, if you give an infusion to someone it's a standard action for them to drink it same as you

handing someone an infusion I've ruled same as handing someone a potion in terms of actions
>>
>>88063200
>>88063320
Pretty much the 3 options for such are
>Magus' Spellstrike
>Eldritch Archer's Eldritch Shot
>Beast Gunner's Spellsling

Those are currently the 3 ways to grant Item Bonuses to spell attack rolls, along with striking with the weapon in tandem.
>>
>>88066711
HOLD IT! One more addition.
Spellstrike Ammunition.
Lets you use the result of a ranged attack roll for your attack.
...This shit was in the CRB, why does NO ONE talk about it??
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>>88066852
Because you need to keep buying it for stronger spells, and it's set up so that you'll never be able to use it for top slot spells due to item level being 2 higher. This also means you can't use it with cantrips.
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>>88066852
Because you can't store the spell in it so it's 3 actions to activate it and then shoot it, it's incredibly expensive, you need to have the correct spell slot as your ammo
>>
>>88067003
>>88067015
Ah, right...
>>
>2e
Reading the critical crafting of TV, it mentions minor beneficial special abilities as a possible reward for critting.
Is there a list of examples of what these would be? I'm new and still wrapping my head around everything you can do with items.
>>
>>88067343
There doesn't appear to be a concrete list. It seems like it wants you to look for another magic item of similar level and take its Special Ability is uses when you Activate the item.
>>
What's the best 2e adventure path?
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>>88067575
I see, that's unfortunate. I'm going to see some items and try to make a table I can roll then.
I'm reading the books and so far, as I understood, a weapon for example can have:
>2 fundamental runes
>1-3 property runes, depending on the fundamental rune
>1 talisman/spellheart
>1 adjustment
>possibly becoming a relic
Did I get it right?
>>
>>88056392

"Unorthodox" does not mean "literally illegal because there are no rules that allow it". If there weren't any archetypes, talents or feats to allow it, you couldn't build it.

It's an unorthodox build because no one else uses it.
>>
1e, character is now sort of part shadow and is now Dazzled in anything greater than dim light, so now i think it's time for him to invest in magical sunglasses or something, but i'm not seeing any on the pfsrd? i could have sworn i've seen them before
>>
whta asian flavour archetypes ansd ubclasses you want to see in the Tian Xia books?
>>
>>88069791
Archetype that gives legendary proficiency with katanas
>>
>>88069791
Shinto priest archetype for druids, oracles and clerics
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>>88069311

Dazzled is a pitiful -1 on perception. I wouldn't even bother putting it on my sheet. It's a cosmetic roleplaying-only character description quirk.
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>>88071002

It's strictly a Shaman thing... **MAAAAAYBE** a Summoner archetype. Druid, Oracle and Cleric have absolutely nothing to do with it. Do you even know what a Shinto priest is or does?
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>>88071065
Apparently, there is another divine-themed book coming out soonish maybe the Shaman will be in there? It would be appropriate for the 4 book adventure.
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>>88071065
I know they are more like shamans but hey we don't have a shaman class yet so I mentioned classes that might fill that role sort of.
>>
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Can non-divine spellcasters ressurect the dead in pf2 or is it a cleric/oracle only thing?
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>>88069311
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Lenses%20of%20Darkness
But I would recommend this instead, it's cheaper: https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Light-killer%27s%20grease
>>
>>88071087
I highly doubt that they'd release new classes without a playtest. So Shaman (and probably Inquisitor, too) will get a playtest this summer and the divine book will release next year.
But I would assume that Inquisitors will be focus casters and shamans primal.
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>>88071115
>and shamans primal.
I could see the shaman getting to chose between the divine or primal lists
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>>88071115
>t Inquisitors will be focus casters
I could see them either going focus casters or wave like the summoner and magus.
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>>88071226
Primal is the only list with only one class dedicated to it, so it would make sense to make the shaman pure primal.
But I would like some exorcism support for summoners, as well as a Shikigami eidolon to create Onmyoji.
>>
Is there an ETA on when we think Kineticist will get its full release?
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>>88071342
With Rage of Elements, so July/August. They haven't broken their Summer book trend yet.
>>
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>>88071256
In PF1, the Inquisitor was defined by three things;
>egoistical buffing
>tons of skill bonuses, including monster lore
>judgement and bane
>a nice red uniform
Some of those have been usurped by other classes like the Thaumaturge (who can work well as a Hagiomancer, but not a general inquisitor). In my opinion the Inquisitor should be to the Rogue what the Paladin is to the Fighter, so I'd want it to have the skill boosts of Rogue and Investigator.
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>>88071297
True good argument there.
>>
>>88071065
It's not like druids have a lot to do with you know, actual druids
or bards with actual bards
lots of classes really don't translate properly
>>
>>88071098
Its a ritual so yes but you still need a really good religion check.
>>
>>88071409
My thought process is that it will be the skill monkey variant of the magus with judgements being focus spells and banes being similar to the hunt prey mechanic.
>>
>>88071098

Everyone can, if your GM allows rituals, you have the required skill proficiency and you learned according ritual:

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rituals.aspx?ID=20
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rituals.aspx?ID=10
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rituals.aspx?ID=35
>>
I'm building a nature archer in 1e right now and am going schizophrenic to think if I missed anything obvious in my average round of combat
>Druid
>Half-Elf for Longbow prof
>Roc Companion
>Level 8
>16 Str (using adaptive comp longbow)
>22 Dex
>Nature Fang
>Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Longbow Weapon Focus, Improved Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Manyshots
>Wands of Gravity Bow to add some extra damage
Assumption that enemy is within 30ft, is Flat Footed and that Grav Bow was already cast.
>Declare Deadly Aim for -2 atk +4 DMG
>Declare Rapid Shot for +1 Arrow -2 atk
>+9 to hit from Dex + BaB + PBS -Feats
>+8 dmg from Str + PBS + DA
>Sneak Attack since they don't have dex to AC
>Fire first shot with extra arrow from many shots for 1d6 + 4d6 + 8
>Fire Second shot for 2d6 +8
Is that all or am I retarded, I've been building for so long I can't even tell
>>
>>88069791
Oni-born tieflings. There's a lineage feat for tieflings born from every kind of fiend except Oni.
A iaijutsu archetype would be cool too.
>>
I feel like the only real thing I'm missing that I need for a simple homebrew setting is a pantheon.
Is there an easy way of constructing one?
Like how many gods do I need and what do they need to represent?
>>
>>88072129
Don't forget study target adding +2 to hit/dmg, and run it by your DM if it applies to your spell DC.

Sneak attack applies to every attack you do that isn't manyshot against your target when you shoot if they're flat footed, so add another 1d6 to your second shot and rapid shot.

If you use rapid you'll get a third shot at your highest BAB at another -2 on all of your attacks.

Without study target it should look something like, assuming you're using all your feats.
>7/7/2
>>
>>88072285
you can go as low as 0 if you really want
that being said, take inspiration from IRL religions, Paizo does the exact same thing
>>
>>88072414
>you can go as low as 0 if you really want
Much as I would like to, I really need shit for Clerics and Champions.
Also it's nice to have some evil gods, cults are a favorite villain type for me.
>>
>>88072129
As other poster said, you forgot to include the +2 bonus from Studied Target, but that's more of a concern at lv 9 when you can do so as a swift action.
>Deadly Aim
Nah, switch this out for EWP: Orc Hornbow. Deadly Aim is -2/+4 atm, while using a Orc Hornbow is -0/+3.5 (with gravity bow) or -0/+2.5 (compared to a normal longbow). The accuracy drop is not worth it (yet).
>>
>>88072437
cleric of ideals work for godless or ambiguous settings
same with paladins

but ye if you want evil gods, best to look towards older religions, and possibly look at texts written by people/faiths hostile to said religion, since they tend to overexaggerate the evil of certain gods

depending on your group, chances are if you aren't blatantly copying the most popular greek or norse deities, they'll never even figure it out if you change the names or even if you don't
>>
>>88072623
>cleric of ideals work for godless or ambiguous settings
>same with paladins
Is ideals in one of the books as variant rules?
>>
Playing in PF2, got a part of 5 level 5 characters about to do an encounter on a train. Somewhat tight width-wise, so I plan to have them getting attacked from either side by a couple of low level mooks before a boss comes in to fight.
Since it's tight corridors, any recommendations for a good boss around that level for them to take on in a small space? One that won't get mogged due to the way things are cramped, but also won't obliterate the party as a result
>>
>>88072685
>While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction. (Work with your GM if you prefer this path to selecting a specific deity.)

>If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval).

straight from the CRB
>>
pf2, is "magic" a language?
If a mage who only speaks common hears another wizard who only speaks abyssal casting a spell, does he understand/recognize the verbal components of the spell?
Are scrolls language agnostic?
>>
>>88073028
>straight from the CRB
I can't seem to find this
is it 1e?
>>
>>88073116
It's more like being a yoyo pro and seeing another guy pull out a yoyo and begin shaping his fingers to make a cradle.
>>
>>88073116
>If a mage who only speaks common hears another wizard who only speaks abyssal casting a spell, does he understand/recognize the verbal components of the spell?
Yes, as long as the wizard has the same spell prepared. And if he doesn't, all he needs is to spend an action using Recall Knowledge with the appropriate magic skill, no mention of any Society check to understand any foreign language.
>Are scrolls language agnostic?
Probably yes, since you always automatically identify scrolls of any spell on your list, and need to use Arcana/Occultism/Nature/Religion instead of Society to identify an unknown scroll.
Also, on top of that, there is nothing preventing an intelligent creature that has a mouth but doesn't know any spoken languages from casting a spell with Verbal components, so magic definitely seems to be a pseudo-language of its own.
>pf2, is "magic" a language?
So the answer is probably yes.
>>
>>88073400
ah yes 1e, might be different in 2e
>>
>>88072160
God I miss my old oni-born tielfing speaker for the ancients shaman he was the uncle iroh of the party.
>>
>>88071115
We could definitely use more primal casters, the only dedicated primal guy is the druid, all other primal casters are those that can make the choice of any spell list at character creation
>>
>>88075178
on the other hand, primal list aint good
>>
>>88075365
Idk its pretty solid.
Wall of stone, slow and fireball are all you really need.
>>
>>88075915
you can just play arcane if you want those
>>
1e
Can one use Suggestion to Suggest to a panicking ally to calm down and stop panicking?
>>
>>88076020
you can do that, and they will try if they fail the will save
but it doesn't override a fear effect and they will only make an attempt to their best ability
if they're physically incapable of calming themselves down, it's not going to work

could work to get someone who's afraid of ships to get aboard, not going to work someone who's currently running away due to fear aura
>>
pf2e. whats the best way to build armor on a thaumaturge? human and go for heavy armor training? couple points in dex and medium armor and fall short of heavy by 1-2 AC?
>>
>>88076020
Roleplay "panicking" probably yes, as long as you make it sound reasonable. Paniced caused by spells or abilities does not get overwritten though and those would probably fit in condition of "Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell" from the viewpoint of the target.
>>
>>88076153
Medium armor training is a thaumaturge feature so just put one boost in dex and wear a breastplate or chain mail.
>>
>>88076252
when building as STR + front/mid linger is it worth going heavy armor at any point? or just stick to medium armor and toss a point or two in dex for the bonus?
>>
>>88076270
I could see expending a general feat for heavy armor training being useful for a long time, since its +1 ac and I don't think thaumaturges are very good at using shields. At first level you could maybe get splint mail although its 13gp so you're kind of shafted for weapons.

Depends if you want to expend the feats to get it and if you want to keep it up to date.
Medium armor expert is granted at 11 and at that point you're better protected by medium than heavy, so you'd need sentinel dedication and level 13, or champion dedication and diverse armor expert feat at 14 to maintain the benefit of heavy armor.
>>
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>>88054795
>Ran 5E for years
>Want to play a different system
>Players don't want to put in the effort
>Come to /pgg/ to ask for help/advice
>It works
>Been running PF2E for over a year now
>Finished Abomination Vaults last month and just started Gatewalkers
>We're talking about branching out to a new system after this
>All of my players are grateful that I convinced them to change systems and are now converting other 5E players to try playing literally anything else
I wanted to say thank you. I don't think I could've done it without the help and support of you guys.
>>
>>88077751
congratulations on graduating from 5e to pf2e!
how did they do with making characters? anyone noteworthy or entertaining?
>>
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>>88077761
Thank you! Most of the party has made relatively traditional fantasy characters so far except for the one player. He's really into the versatility of character building and makes something that feels unique every time. So far he's made:
>A fleshwarped magus Wellspring mage. His goal is to control his wellspring magic to hone himself into the ideal living weapon.
>A rooting tooting Skeleton Monk from Alkenstar with the bullet dancer archetype. Loves shooting, looting, and flipping around enemies.
His character right now for Gatewalkers is a half-elf Anger Phantom summoner with the investigator archetype. His eidolon manifested after the missing moment. He wants to find out what happened so he can understand what this sudden power means and whether or not it presents a threat to himself. Pic related is the eidolon. He calls him "Sonny."
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>>88077917
Sonny is such a good boy, god bless him.
Sounds like a really entertaining person to DM for, honestly. I'd have suggested this art for the skeleton monk.
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1e
How to build Gaslighter Mesmerist? I guess I would need to have some sort of mirror on me to spook the enemies with?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/mesmerist/archetypes/paizo-llc-mesmerist-archetypes/gaslighter-mesmerist-archetype/
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>>88071767

... you know... there are some people who say... maybe the D&D classes suck and there's a better system or ruleset or setting out there somewhere...

Or you could just do what I do and ban the stupid classes from the table.
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>>88079816
there's no need to ban classes outright
D&D's version of Bard and Druid are fun
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>>88079816
>there's a better system or ruleset or setting out there somewhere
Many, but if you're gonna stick to D&D-likes, you're gonna get some weird fantasy anachronisms
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newfag moving from 5e to pf2e. links in pastebin not working for anyone else? Looking for kingmaker supplements mainly.
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>>88080669
Our links have been busted for almost a year now, we just keep them there for tradition at this point. Head to the share thread if you want anything.
>>
why do zombies (and lesser undead in general) die? do you just butcher the corpse so much it's unusable?
The corpselight monster for example, can "Claim Corpse". Is there any requisite for the corpse (other than not having been claimed)? Are bones enough? Are just major bones enough?
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>>88080682
:( ty
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>>88080695
undead are animated by negative energy in some way
killing them is damaging them to the point that connection is broken and they stop being animated
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>>88056070
>Only defense mode checked is CMD.
this makes it pretty shitty on a 3/4 BAB class
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>>88069311
get someone with Eclipse Spell to cast a dim light continual flame on a piece of your equipment
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>>88077751
Try to get my group to try PF2E they only want o play 5e because it's what they know and I member thinking pf2e is similar to 1e. They complains about the OGL shit but refuse to spread their role-playing wings. I suggested PF2e because we could easily recreate our existing c characters and the martials could actually have fun.
>>
For 2e I'm thinking of playing an Investigator for my next character but I also want to use a dedication with it is gunslinger the right way to go or is there anything that stands out as synergy that I should go for instead.
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>>88081440
pf2e is nothing like 1e, it's basically 4th edition but with jason bulmahn's shit taste smeared over it. 5e and pf1e have way more in common since 5e was specifically made to cater to grognards so it's basically 3.x with training wheels
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>>88081757
>pf2e is nothing like 1e
I messed I meant to type 1 member of the group who thinks 2e is similar to 1e. Despite me listing all the differences and voicing one advantage is that while is simpler then 1e it's not overly dumbed-down crap like 5e.
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>>88081840
>it's not overly dumbed-down crap like 5e.
PF2E cares even less about roleplay and immersion than 5e does, the game is split into "exploration mode" and "encounter mode" like a JRPG with an overworld map, 90% of your class features and abilities and spells and effects have absolutely no rules for how they function in """"exploration mode"""" (aka the entire rest of the fucking game outside of combat), the game is dedicated to tactical boardgame/wargame combat balance over everything else so you have situations like a robot catching tetanus (not a joke https://2e.aonprd.com/Diseases.aspx?ID=3)because it would be "overpowered" if they couldn't. There's even less freedom in terms of class design because multiclassing straight up doesn't exist, your level 1 class permanently determines a good 80% of your character including HP, AC, saves, attack accuracy, and even perception (and therefore initiative).
PF2E certainly has more rules depth than 5e, which is basically "lmao the GM makes something up, I guess, also you get advantage) but I would say in terms of roleplay and any attempt at immersion or verismilitude or a simulationist attempt at your game world having consistency or suspension of disbelief, it is even more dumbed down than 5e. While 5e's blanket answer for most things is "iunno, ask your dm", pf2e's blanket answer for most things is "no, that wouldn't be balanced" which is even less satisfying to hear for many people considering they are interested in a ttrpg precisely because it's an experience you can't get just by playing a fucking videogame.

If you are one of the incredibly few 5e groups who actually play with 6-8 encounters per adventuring day and spend at least 80% of your sessions either in combat, or dungeon crawling from one combat encounter to another, PF2E is indeed something to look at and might fit your tastes, if it's not then I'd recommend something like Shadow of the Demon Lord as an entry level 5e alternative instead.
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>>88081983
>you have situations like a robot catching tetanus
what are you talking about? constructs are explicitly immune to diseases

I dont understand most of your points desu. The "modes" are just formalizing what already happened and splitting in a way that it's easier to explain and the rules are exactly the same, only the timespan changes
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Why is this a thing? Why do faggots and trannys need to make everything about their sexual crap?
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>>88081983
Play 2e in a dm homebrew setting we have plenty of role pay and social stuff mixed between the combat.
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>>88082087
>what are you talking about? constructs are explicitly immune to diseases
not in 2e they aren't. you probably mean "ENEMY constructs are explicitly immune to diseases", but unlike 1e, in 2e players and monsters use completely different rules with no overlap. So you can have someone be playing a race that is explicitly a Construct-type only, doesn't even have the Humanoid type, but is still just as vulnerable to poison, disease, bleeding, and suffocation as a human because "it would be overpowered" if they weren't.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=48

This is the same reason a level 1 NPC enemy Strix has a permanent flight speed, but a Player Strix doesn't get a permanent flight speed until he's fucking high enough level to cast Teleport. So you will have player-characters who in-game cannot even physically leave the village they grew up in to go adventuring at level 1 because it was built on a giant mountaintop and all the buildings and structures were made assuming all these low-level commoners have wings and can fly. but your character can't fly until he's very high level. So if you go visit John the Fighter's parents he will need a fucking 500 foot long cripple ladder to say hi to mom and dad. and also even if he's level 20, if he didn't choose the right feats, he still can't fly and will need his level 1 baker mommy to come pick him up when he visits home.
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>>88082139
You can't make some aspect of yourself your whole personality without making it your whole personality, dawg.
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>>88081983
this is the most autistic nogames post i've read in a long time. Normal people don't need rules to tell them how to roleplay
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>>88082348
In fairness, this is one of his more reasonable posts, in that he actually is recommending 2e to someone, backhanded it may be. No Capslock either, so progress!
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>>88082348
>Normal people don't need rules to tell them how to roleplay
do normal people need a feat allowing them to persuade more than one person at a time? saying "pf2e does not care about roleplay" is not a hot take. it's made by and for PFS autists who are paizo's target market
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>>88082177
Ok, have your immunities, but you'll be one level behind. Fair, right?
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>"This game has a lot of dumb rules for the sake of balance and doesn't support immersion well, if you're okay with that you might like it for combat"
>DUDE JUST HOMEBREW IT WHY DO YOU NEED RULES FOR EVERYTHING
I hope you faggots realize you're literally doing the same thing 5e drones do. F- grade. I'm very disappointed in you, see me after class.
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>>88082455
Theres the caps lock

I was responding to this point here
>90% of your class features and abilities and spells and effects have absolutely no rules for how they function in """"exploration mode""""
It's not homebrew to extrapolate your abilities into """"exploration mode"""" using common sense

>>88082407
If you're referring to group impression, that has nothing to do with persuasion, but either way, how does pointing out a non combat feat help your argument that all of the feats only relate to combat?
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>>88082619
>It's not homebrew to extrapolate your abilities into """"exploration mode"""" using common sense
go ahead and tell me what a familiar can do out of combat lol. keep in mind that familiars technically aren't even real creatures and don't actually have ability scores
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>>88082619
>extrapolate your abilities using common sense
lmao
ishygddt
"DM I extrapolate that create water in a container allows me to drown people by filling their lungs up!!!! The rules don't say I can't, I'm just using common sense!"
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>>88082139
The same reason you feel the need to post about faggots and trannies.
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>>88082619
>If you're referring to group impression, that has nothing to do with persuasion
?????????
What did he mean by this?
2e does not have a "Persuasion" skill like D&D 5e, Diplomacy and "Make an Impression" is literally how you persuade someone in 2e to make them like you more and raise favorability.
Did you get lost on your way to /5eg/ or something?
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=789
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>>88082639
>>88082645
>>88082685
Three prime examples of being unable to imagine something in your head without a rulebook explaining it to you in hyper specific verbage. I dunno what attracts you types to roleplaying games but uhhh...
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>>88082754
concession accepted
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>>88082754
>unable to imagine something in your head without a rulebook explaining it to you in hyper specific verbage
The problem with 5e is that the rulebooks have no rules and you need to make everything up yourself as a DM.
The problem with pf2e is that the rulebooks DO have rules, it's just the rules are fucking retarded and you need to throw them out entirely and come up with your own if you want any immersion.

God I hope starfinder unchained doesn't fucking suck.
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>>88082761
Thanks, keep having fun playing online games with random strangers that fall apart after the first session!
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>>88082842
I only play rpgs with my actual friends and don't give a fuck about garbage pathfinder society bullshit or the "muh balance" autism which 99% of pf2e caters to, which is why we play games that care more about roleplay and immersion than "no you can't kill the enemies in their sleep, that would be overpowered, also being paralyzed is the same as flat-footed!"

I suggest you try any other system besides D&D, like call of cthulhu, or vampire the masquerade, or gurps, or even shit like FATE so you can see morons who care about wargame balance in a roleplaying game are fucking lepers who deserve all the garbage that gets peddled to them.
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>>88082866
This mans in the pathfinder thread, calling pathfinder shit, and telling me (a pathfinder player) to stop playing D&D
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>>88083079
>calling pathfinder shit
calling pathfinder 2e shit******
I don't have a problem with 1e and despite starfinder's jankiness I like a lot of its ideas
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Where do you guys look for games? I've got an itch to play but I live in bumfuck nowhere so online is all I got.
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>>88083079
idk if you're trying to be subversive or not but pathfinder is literally dnd, paizo are the company who did dragon magazine from 2002 until WOTC nuked the ogl with 4e, where they branched off to continue making adventure paths and continued making 3.5 content, the earliest pathfinder adventure paths were still made and marketed as being d&d 3.5 products which is why on nethys there's lots of old 3.5 tagged content from early APs like Curse of the Crimson Throne
https://aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Guided
When people say "play something besides D&D" they are counting pathfinder in that category, it's not a gotcha to say "haha nerd I'm actually playing Pepsi D&D instead of Coke D&D!"
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>>88082639
A familiar is regarded as Trained in every skill, uses the caster's spell proficiency for them, and can hold items, just not Activate them (to avoid Scroll cheese with them). They are perfectly fine out of combat as a means to use your magic as a skill stat.
They are, for all intents and purposes, a Tiny creature that uses your stats for skills. They can actually even hold and use Tools like Healer's Kits with Manual Dexterity.
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>>88083284
>A familiar is regarded as Trained in every skill
literally wrong lmao, they never actually get trained/expert/master/legendary in anything. they add JUST your spellcasting mod and level to a handful of skills, you can give them more skills with a familiar ability but they never gain actual proficiency. adding just level+mod means they quickly become useless past low levels, since they not only don't benefit from item bonuses to skills (which the game math assumes you have) but they go from being -2 to -8 behind as you level up. you can maybe succeed at intimidating with them at level 1, trying to demoralize with them at level 13 is a wasted action.
> and can hold items
except they aren't actually creatures and don't actually have a strength modifier, so the amount of bulk they can carry is something you need to make up yourself. they use your spellcasting modifier for skills, but don't actually have their own ability scores. Similarly, what happens when they use Master's Form to become a medium creature? nobody knows, because familiars have the most poorly written rules in the game. Same with manual dexterity allowing them to do any manipulate action, which includes interact actions, which is itself a massibe subcategory of potential actions.

the fact you yourself don't even understand the actual rules you're supposedly correcting people on just proves the point, thank you for being a live demonstration though
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>>88083359
Will stand corrected on the Skilled manner, but the proficiency scaling wasn't the issue as the poor wording on them. They still treat it as they are Trained, so they can use Trained Skill Actions.
>except they aren't actually creatures and don't actually have a strength modifier, so the amount of bulk they can carry is something you need to make up yourself.
This is an issue because they should have said "They have an ability modifier of zero", not "they have no ability modifier". Then you can say they have a Bulk Limit of 2, as Bulk Conversion states Tiny creatures have Half of the Bulk Limit of a Small/Medium creature.
By default they have to be able to pick up and hold items, as Valet literally doesn't work if they can't.
>Same with manual dexterity allowing them to do any manipulate action, which includes interact actions, which is itself a massibe subcategory of potential actions.
This was never an issue. They always could use Interact actions with Manual Dexterity. It doesn't conflict with the "Cannot Activate items" rules, as that is a subordinate of Activation. They can even Reload things...assuming they are holding it cause apparently you can only reload things you are actively wielding, thanks Seifter...

I don't disagree they have the most poorly worded rules in the system, but it isn't like they are unusuable because their rules come out of an entirely different game... A familiar has plenty of out-and-in-combat uses.
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>>88083527
>They still treat it as they are Trained, so they can use Trained Skill Actions.
again, you're still wrong on this. they are not trained in every skill. they can attempt Trained skill actions only in skills for which they add your spellcasting modifier, which is only Perception, Stealth, and Acrobatics by default plus whatever else you've spent familiar abilities to gain with skilled. That's the complete opposite of you saying "A familiar is regarded as Trained in every skill", it's simply untrue.

They have shitty non-proficiency in exactly 3 skills, plus whatever you piss away familiar abilities on with Skilled.
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2e
Is there any way to make investigator viable in combat? 2 actions for each attack is kind of messy, and the damage isn't that good unless you're going with the "intmod instead of strengthmod for damage" interpretation of Devise a Stratagem.
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>>88083691
>the damage isn't that good unless you're going with the "intmod instead of strengthmod for damage" interpretation of Devise a Stratagem.
that's not an interpretation, that's a homebrew rule that should have just been official but paizo are fucking terrified of stat substitution in 2e so classes like inventor and investigator and alchemist get fucked in the ass by their key ability scores. "ONLY THIEF ROGUE GETS STAT SUBSTITUTION!!!!!" is one of their dumbest sacred cows for 2e.
>Is there any way to make investigator viable in combat?
yeah, play literally any other class and just spend two class feats on an archetype to steal On the Case, Pursue a Lead, Clue In, and That's Odd which are the only unique parts of investigator to begin with. If you just want the narrative abilities there's no reason to actually play an investigator.
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>>88083691
It's pretty in line with non-strength based martials in general, thieves notwithstanding. It's sort of expected that swashbucklers and rogues spend an action establishing themselves in combat with their racket or panache-builder. Or movement. An investigator can just hold onto a shortbow, devise a strategem as they aren't relying on a flat footed enemy or melee, and if it's a bad result, either attack like a normal person or use their skills for stuff. Go forensic medicine methodology and medic archetype if you really want some fun stuff to do if your stratagem roll is flawed. Medic is even mostly skill feats so you're not wrecking much of your actual class feat progression.
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>>88083741
>and if it's a bad result, either attack like a normal person or use their skills for stuff.
you explicitly are not allowed to do this. if investigators could choose to attack normally on a shitty devise roll they would be much better, since it'd effectively be advantage on your first attack every turn. but you cannot do that, if you devise you MUST use the result, because paizo fucking hate anyone but fighters having fun and doubly hate people using alternative ability scores to attack.
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>>88083764
oh and for some fucking dumb reason Devise is also a Fortune effect, meaning you can't even stack it with hero points, as if investigators needed to get shit on even harder
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>>88083691
Actually investigate, your Devises are free actions if your target is related to your case. Everyone forgets this despite it being the point of the class.
>If you're aware that the creature you choose is the subject of a lead you're pursuing, you can use this ability as a free action.
You get two leads to slot stuff in. Speak with your GM about what is and isn't part of your investigation and the scope in regards to it and follow through with that.

>>88083741
>either attack like a normal person
Can't do that, gotta use whatever roll given.
It's advisable to have a save spell cantrip on you for those circumstances, since it doesn't take up your roll.
>>
I love these threads where grognards or newfags (is there a better term for them?) point out one problem in a system and use it to declare an entire edition garbage. TTRPGs just wouldn't be the same without the possibility of sudden flame war.
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>>88084009
lots of problems can be emblematic of further issues or red flags to the point their presence alone can warrant someone having a negative opinion of it, regardless of further discussion. If you sit down to play a game and the first words you hear during character creation are "alright everybody, roll for anal circumference" you don't need to sit through a 5 year campaign to know you won't enjoy playing FATAL.
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>>88084009
Again, in fairness, he's been doing this for multiple threads now and always have something different to complain about.
I can't even say a good portion of his whining is wrong, there are just a lot of dumb stuff in 2e. But a lot of the conclusions are either borderline (You)-bait or extremely questionable in regards to what game he to wants to play.

As a fan of 2e, I can never understand the logic behind Paizo not making 1.5e. Even under the logic of "I don't want to make more 1e content cause I always hated it", I don't know why they even bother making another Pathfinder. I don't like having to always deal with 1e/3.X's diehards all the time because they didn't want to make a game for the people they already have.
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>>88084043
>As a fan of 2e, I can never understand the logic behind Paizo not making 1.5e.
That's basically what Starfinder and Pathfinder Unchained were. It's just pf2e ended up having much better marketing and latching onto 5e refugees at the right moment where the fanbase was fed up with wotc. 2e really isn't that unique or different and most of the things people brag about it "innovating" aren't new and are present in some form in 1e or SF, they just repackaged it better to advertise and pretend it's new.
archetypes are literally just unchained VMC. 3 action economy was already in unchained. the way "class feats" work is literally just the way classes with "talents" like rogue/slayer/oracle/witch/alchemist work in 2e, every couple levels you get to pick a new class feature and as you level up you get access to new revelations or hexes or whatever with higher level requirements. which is why despite being so strong and popular in 1e, oracle and witch are so miserable in 2e, because everyone else was made modular build-a-bears, while they actually lost options and lost flexbility.
rituals as replacements for big expensive spells already existed in 1e, ABP already existed, etc.
I think Starfinder tried to be genuinely new and different from 1e in more ways than 2e did, objectively speaking. Even if many of those ways ended up being kind of clunky or poorly implemented (base starship combat, weapon price economy, the way spellcasting was changed to be supplemental rather than entire focus of classes, even "casters") but I at least respect it for trying.
Unfortunately SF rpgs are way way way more niche than generic medieval fantasy ones and the game has too many issues at launch, plus it came out in 2017 when 5e was still peaking.
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>>88084043
Oh, I wasn't being sarcastic: I actually think that discussion about different editions good or bad sides enliven the thread.
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>>88054795
Is there any particular AI art generator that's suitable for creating fantasy art? Shit that can actually parse more than just simple humanoids.
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>>88084110
Unchained isn't 1.5e, none of its rules mesh well with 1e nor does it fixes any problems people have with it (beyond Summoner being busted). And neither does Starfinder with its own rules, albeit everything it is trying to do should have been backported to Pathfinder proper.
Neither game is what people want, which is a cleaner 1e experience that lets them use all the pre-existing rules without the assload of feat taxes and save-or-die scenarios by midlevel. They should have been closer to Elephant in the Room or even Spheres of Power than what any of Paizo's efforts have been since Unchained. That's hat I don't get.

> It's just pf2e ended up having much better marketing
This is a cope and you know it, the games launched pretty equally. 2e even had an awful approach with how shit the playtest was, and it came out in 2019 where most people were fine with 5e.
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1e question
what else does the necklace of serenity enhance? it says it enhances all ki pool abilities (such as bypassing DR)...thing is that's the only ki pool ability, why they say all and include an example of "all" when there's just one? Do they mean ki powers too?
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>>88084741
https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Necklace%20of%20Ki%20Serenity

This one? It enhances your ki pool and all LEVEL based effects, i.e. bypassing DR.
No it wouldn't apply to your powers.
I prefer monk robes because they effect your overall level as 4 higher and don't take up your neck slot.
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>>88084820
>and all LEVEL based effects
so just DR...what a scummy wording on the item

>The wearer gains a +4 bonus to his effective level when determining the size of his ki pool and the level-based effects of his ki pool ability (such as bypassing damage reduction).
Instead of
>The wearer gains a +4 bonus to his effective level when determining the size of his ki pool and bypassing damage reduction

Srly, do they charge for letters?
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>>88084912
It's paizo, they hate monks they have been doing that shit for decades. See ki crystals, 2000 GP for regaining 1 ki point, single use. You welcome monks.
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>>88084929
>pearl of power
>1k gp 1st level, 4k gp 2nd level, infinite reusable spell slots that scale with your cl and any feats
>ki crystal
>2k gp for one ki point before it shatters into nothing
sean k reynolds unironically despised monks and I have no idea why
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ki%20Crystal
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>>88084912
Paizo is renown for their shitty wording.

>>88084929
There was a talk floating around that one dev hated monks for whatever reason and they had to force the guy at gun point to make the UnMonk, which I think turned out pretty well.
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>>88085266
Kek it's funny because there was a twitt from Crawford (D&D5e) literally saying they only release monks because the fanbase ask for them because if it were for him they wouldn't exist. Together with replies to why the wot4e sucks so much being "is not our job to fix paths" just make me think they do it on purpose to spite people
>>
Anyone got Firebrands yet? I wanna read about Cheliax abolishing slavery.
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>>88085383
>I wanna read about Cheliax abolishing slavery.
I always found the hullabaloo around slavery in tabletop games rather interesting because nobody ever seems to address things like familiars and summoned/bound outsiders when having the discussion. Hobgoblins raiding and capturing human slaves is verboten and we can't include it in our games, same with Cheliax having halfling house slaves working as a servant class.....but we're totally fine with devils literally enslaving people's immortal souls and dragging them to hell for eternal torment if they break agreements? And it's okay for a wizard to literally kidnap, bind, and forcibly extract labor from sentient extraplanar outsiders against their will?
The transatlantic slave trade was bad, but the trans-planar slave trade is A-OK? What do these people think is happening when you carve a magic circle and cast planar binding, exactly? Would it be better or worse if you had to get a magic boat and buy the slaves from other devils selling you these devils caught by them into slavery themselves, like the irl slave trade, rather than capturing them yourselves? I don't understand it at all. But I have never, not a single time, ever seen anyone object or even raise an eyebrow at shit like imps being bound into service for stronger fiends, or asshole wizards casually binding devils and demons and throwing them at enemies as cannon fodder.

That's not even getting into shit like necromancers forcibly turning people into intelligent undead and commanding them, or creatures with a Create Spawn ability
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>>88084929
Which is odd because it seems like they fucking love monks in 2e. I guess they just shifted that ire to spellcasters as a whole in this edition.
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>>88085619
I assume because of the following:

>Generally it's fantastical and can't be related to real life
>Devils have the caveat of it being part of the deal and is a punishment no different from being thrown in jail
>Vampires are romantacized or their control over others is so mosntrously fantastical you can't relate to it despite obvious parallels to gaslighting
>Magical mind control is weird and people seem to completely ignore how nightmarish it sounds
>People assume the undead a necromancer creates are just puppets they control or are subservient because of power hierarchy
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>>88085706
the 2e classes were made individually by specific people, whoever the fuck they had in charge of bard, monk, and fighter was obviously not the same person in charge of witch and alchemist. the apg classes in general feel like they were the fucking B-team interns (or, knowing paizo, super underpaid freelancers)
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>>88085780
I would assume the designers have some sort of peer review otherwise that would be retarded to let designers just go fucking rogue with classes.
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>>88085797
>I would assume the designers have some sort of peer review
lol unfortunately they don't, paizo are notorious for their design process being freelancer-->minor editing--->pushed to print (often with word count/clarity sacrificed for print page count) >otherwise that would be retarded to let designers just go fucking rogue with classes.
major shit like the core rulebook does, and new classes go through playtesting now, but 99% of content is just farmed out to freelancers and given a bare minimum pass over.
Exhibit A of this process still being in full effect in 2e: the new firebrands book has spell attack rolls with the incapacitation tag, because whatever retard they paid $50 to write for the book assumed "this tag means the spell debuffs or incapacitates enemies, right?" rather than "uhhhhhh I guess you need to fucking critically hit somebody in order for this to have any effect at all? idk? because literally no other spell attack has this tag until now? lmao who cares print it"
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>>88082177
I see.
Well this is absolutely fucking retarded, I didnt realize special rules for PCs were this extreme.
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>>88085922
PC skeletons can get diseases that explicitly work by rotting your flesh
it's "that" bad
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>>88078947
>Gaslighter
That's not a real archetype. Did you make that one up? You sound crazy, you know that. sorry
Equip them with a Mirrored buckler for your mirror needs, that's about what I can come up with. If Painful Stare actually did anything but chip dmg I'd also recommend Manifold Stare as you can trigger all uses per round instantly. I've never really understood what mechanical niche the Mesmerist is supposed to fill so can't really give you general class advice.
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>>88085922
>Well this is absolutely fucking retarded, I didnt realize special rules for PCs were this extreme.
to make things even more annoying, all summon spells still draw directly from the monster manual. and 2e summon spells have even more options than 1e ones, since now they simply summon any monster of a given type and level, rather than a predetermined list. so you can summon ANY level 0/1/2/etc undead/fey/fiend/celestial/elemental/whatever with the relevant spell. If you encounter a poison bog or trap that spams death spells or a disease-ridden malaria pond, your Automaton player character with the Construct and Automaton types who isn't a humanoid has to summon a low-level Construct with Summon Construct to go walk through it and grab what he needs for him, he can't actually do it himself.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=318
Because NPC and Monster constructs (even NPC and monster automatons!!!!) all have
>Immunities: bleed, death effects, disease, doomed, drained, fatigued, necromancy, nonlethal attacks, paralyzed, poison, sickened, unconscious
but you, as a player character Construct and Automaton just like those monsters, have none of those. So your robot needs to summon a fucking animated broom or homunculus or animated armor like you're mickey mouse in fantasia because the temporary low level summoned monsters are more robot-y than you are.

It really ends up feeling like the worst of all worlds. You completely divorce PC statistics and abilities from monsters, but then still end up with players trawling through the monster manual, and being confronted in-your-face with the arbitrary difference between PCs and enemies every single time anyone casts a summon spell. And the differences always end up making PCs feel inferior, because monsters are allowed to have laundry lists of blanket immunities and permanent flight or other forms of movement right from level 1.
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>>88086023
the monster manual trawling is also schizophrenic when it comes to transformation spells

then again, I honestly think they intentionally made summoning as weak, annoying and convoluted as possible in the hopes that nobody would ever bother with it
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>>88086016
they're a 2/3 caster that can actually boost up it's DC's to the point enemies can fail them
unlike say the hilarious joke of giving bards a bunch of save-negated spells nothing will ever fail their save against
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>>88086050
>then again, I honestly think they intentionally made summoning as weak, annoying and convoluted as possible in the hopes that nobody would ever bother with it
they in fact made it so summoning's only utility is in bypassing out of combat problems by taking advantage of the fact monsters play by entirely different rules than players, since the summons are way too low level to actually be useful (at higher levels they're literally 5 levels lower than the party even using your highest level slot, and they take 3 actions to summon, and still need to be sustained every turn)
So they made them useless in combat (where they would be the least disruptive and immersion breaking as temporary meat shields and beatsticks), and most useful out of combat, where their completely different nature from PCs is immediately shunted to the forefront, and players need to break out the monster statblocks and show off all these cool options that only enemies ever get to use.

I played a druid in a hell's rebels conversion and was super annoyed at how often my best solution to out of combat problems was summoning a low-level elemental or fey to solve problems for us out of combat, meanwhile my actual character was gimped as fuck in comparison (and wildshape is just generic statblocks and you can't even become a damn badger even with 5th level animal form, not to mention being forced to become large and huge with higher level forms so you can't even use them in most places)
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I am making a pantheon where a single church governs and sanctions the worship of 13 Gods:
Goddess of Light (LG) (Top god)
God of Time and Space (N)
God of Heroism and Bravado (NG)
God of Debauchery (CG)
God of Law and Judgement (LN)
Goddess of Comfort and the Harvest (CG)
Goddess of Knowledge and Medicine (NG)
God of Magic (N)
God of the Sun and Moon (LN)
Goddess of War and Bloodlust (CE) (Only evil god sanctioned, chuch believes war is unavoidable)
Goddess of Fate, Coincidence and Storytelling (NG)
God of Death and Endings (LN)
Goddess of the Afterlife (N)

There are other gods, but they are not sanctioned by the church of light.

Is there any changes I should make to this pantheon, or does it cover most needs?
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>>88086314
real life polytheistics gods (and good fictional ones, imo) don't have neatly packaged domains like that, spice it up a little bit. make the goddess of war also the goddess of love or fertility or something like ishtar, "law and judgement" is redundant give them something else fun like lightning and storms and literally smite people with heavenly lightning as they deliver judgement, etc.
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>>88086450
Good ideas
Fuck me I feel like this is gonna take ages.
I'm not great at this.
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>>88086070
Eh, it's a -2/-3 penalty. It helps but it's not a gamechanger. I'm more confused about the feint focus when they have no reason to invest in it, the absolute chip dmg that Painful Stare inflicts, and the combination of awful proficiency with the requirement of having to be within 30 ft to use Hypnotic Stare.
It's like they're telling you to waltz into melee as a d8 bad Fort save class in light armor, and try to feint the opponent for a small accuracy boost so that your 3/4 BAB might actually hit something. Only to deal awful dmg as you're pushed into Dex builds with no bonus feats and a d6 weapon.
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>>88086450
I feel like overcomplicating the gods its just gonna make your players not feel like engaging with them as it becomes too much effort.
Making them simple makes it easier for them to offhandedly go "Damn, fuck that evil god" and to choose to worship a god that suits them.
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Anyone played through Abomination Vaults and/or Blood Lords?

Gm considered playing either one of those (likely due to the foundyr module availability) but we decided against it so I'd just like to know if we missed out on anything good or dodged a bullet.
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>>88085819
I did specifically mean the main classes in the big release books that get peer reviewed. I know freelancers pump out barely checked shit for the lost omens line thats why they are either borderline cheese like this firebrand one or ridiculously weak like the knights of lastwall.
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>>88085619
Yanks and Brits have become incredibly thin skinned about human slavery when they were probably the nations who indulged in it the least through human history and also fought to stop its practices on a world wide scale. It is all very strange how we all must be ashamed of that past and turbo liberal groups like the paizo design staff just want to white wash it away in shame instead of glorifying the fight against slavery that is very much a virtue of the west.
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>>88086667
Abomination Vaults is classic dungeon crawling, except for the underground CN/CE punk rock band consisting of undeads, aberrations, and rats. Also CN drow appear in it. Blood Lords doesn't really let you be Blood Lords until book 5, but by that point you are fighting fellow undead instead of razing small villages to turn into your zombie army.
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>>88086828
Im glad they are throwing the 6 part APs in the bin now so we can get far more focused 3 part APs that get to the point faster.
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1e, how do you usually handle the leadership feat?

My usual table understands it's either used to keep a npc they like around, or they put out a ad saying what they want, and I'll throw something together.
A plus 1 we had threw a shitfit when I told him that. I guess he assume he would be getting another character sheet to do what he wanted with.
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>>88086902
They get to choose their cohort, but now how they are built.
Their NPC goon army of faceless mooks will melt if they appear in combat, they are only there to supply you with runners and maybe free casting.
If I tell you to fuck off with leadership and you complain I am just going to cut losses and kick you.
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>>88086902
Generally speaking I only allow it if there is less than 6 player owned characters in the field, including but not limited to animal companions, combat familiars, eidolons, ect to keep the clutter and waiting times at minimum.
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>>88086618
>I feel like overcomplicating the gods its just gonna make your players not feel like engaging with them as it becomes too much effort.
giving them more than one domain isn't "overcomplicating them", and in my experience makes people more interested since it opens up multiple options for worship. in pathfinder a good example is calistria, if she was just the goddess of fucking and sex she would be incredibly boring, but she's also the goddess of trickery, also the goddess of revenge, is also the goddess of wasps, and is also the chief deity of the elven pantheon to the point she broke out into mainstream worship across golarion and is a core deity, the fact she's a CN god with both CG and CE worshippers leads to a lot of interesting situations, especially since she lives in elysium yet still sponsors antipaladins and CE clerics, her Herald is a giant murder-rape death wasp that kills people with its chestburster young. You could have an entire party of Calistria worshippers who focus on entirely different aspects of her portolio.
>Chaotic Evil Antipaladin embodying violent revenge and punishing anyone who's ever wronged him
>Chaotic Good slutty cleric who does the sacred prostitute routine and has "I CAN FIX HIM" delusions about the antipaladin and focuses on the Luck and Charm domains
>Chaotic Neutral Inquisitor with the Heresy inquisition who's a glowy hunting down those who disrespect the faith or its followers.
>True Neutral Druid who just really fucking loves wasps and wants to get murder-rape-vored by the menotherian with reincarnate contingency'd on himself so he can resurrect and raise his wasp babies with her (this guy is also secretly calistria's favorite because he's the exact sort of fucked in the head she likes)

most other popular gods in d&d or its clones have more than just one big domain as well. Lolth has spiders, general villainy, drow specific shit, evil, darkness, and political assassination (with overt killing expressly forbidden)
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>>88083794
Oh shit that means I cheated during my last game by using hero point when both my true strike dice rolled badly.
>>
2e, Vaults
Isn't the reward hook after Deadtide bit small? Like, the assumption is that you need to disable the lantern but if they even suspect it being more floors (simply from being given expectations to reach ~10th lvl for example) the 50g reward seems to not be satisfactory lest your party is LG x4
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>>88087659
My experience so far with modules is from 1e, but paizo tends to lowball rewards for quests.
We ended up trying to salvage everything not nailed down if we had time.
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>>88087220
Weirdly, the true neutral druid doesn't work anymore in 2e, they changed it from "You have to be within one-step of your deities alignment" to every god having a specific set of allowed alignments.

Most LG and CG gods are effectively still on the one-step rule, however almost all the deities that are LN, NG, CN, or NE no longer allow true neutral worshippers, Pharasma no longer allows CN or NE worshippers, Iomedae no longer allows LN worshippers, Torag no longer allows NG worshippers, and almost every evil deity no longer allows LN, N, or CN worshippers, with the only exception being Norgorber
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>>88087945
that honestly sounds kinda stupid
like, why would Asmodeus not allow a LN worshipper?
As long as he sticks to the contracts and tenets of his faith, the fact he's not genuinely evil should be the last concern
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>>88087945
Yeah, is there even any explanation for that stupid shit other than that they enjoy being killjoys?
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>>88086478
On top of what that anon said, do you need 13? It seems like a nightmare to govern/sanction (Although that may be your point). There are a few pretty easy merges you could make.
>Time/Space + Magic could go to one N god of fundamental forces.
>A LN God of Sun/Moon+Death and Endings also could have a nice sunrise/sunset theme going on.
> Or like what >>88086450 said, really mix it up. Maybe War is unavoidable, but it also makes for the most important stories and moral lessons, giving an additional reason to keep that one in the pantheon.
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>>88088120
Yep, no more Lawful Neutral followers of Asmodeus, or even NE actually. Asmodeus now ONLY allows LE worshippers. Similarly, Lamashtu now only allows pure CE followers.

>>88088121
If I had to hazard a guess, they didn't want you to be able to have morally neutral characters worshipping evil deities... except for the god of murder for some reason.
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>>88088161
that's really dumb
Asmodeus is like the definition of an evil god that can have non-evil worshipers
hell that's the entire point of the hellknights, being devoted to Law first, second, third and all the way down to 65
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>>88087945
Me thinks that's for mechanical reasons of Clerics and Paladins. I don't think a god would shoot lightning at you for not being on their chosen grid.
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1e: Does a Brawler need high dex to benefit from brawler's flurry? The ability grants the TWF feats while flurrying, but doesn't specify that the brawler doesn't need to meet the prereqs, and a character loses the ability to use a feat they have if they do not meet the prereqs. Is there something I'm missing?
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>>88088261
No, they get more attacks at specific levels.
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>>88087945
the fact many deities still sponsor CE and CG worshippers at the same time, but apparently now Torag doesn't allow fucking neutral good dwarves, is probably one of the dumbest fucking things I've heard. It really feels like they killed the one-step rule just for the sake of being different, so many of the changes are fucking nonsensical.

You're telling me Asmodeus has given up on tempting LN Hellknights to evil? Really? Are you fucking shitting me? There's like 5 pages in Council of Thieves talking about how Asmodeus even sponsors PALADINS and grants them spells through an arrangement with iomedae because he likes tempting people to evil that much! You're telling me this faggot decided Lawful Neutral was too much for him??? Cheliax was the fucking patron nation of Aroden, the entire reason they converted to his worship so easily was because they were a bunch of Lawtists!!!
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>>88086828
Okay but is either one any good?
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>>88088161
>they didn't want you to be able to have morally neutral characters worshipping evil deities... except for the god of murder for some reason.
No, there's other evil deities who still allow neutral worshippers, even fucking Baphomet still allows CN. Same with Dagon, another literal demon lord.

Even other residents of hell allow LN worship. Dispater allows LN, but Asmodeus doesn't, even though they're both giga lawtists? Is it because Asmodeus is an angry incel who hates women and Dispater is a chad who fucked the shit out of a fire elemental mommy?
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>>88088473
The former is fun mindless romping if you like 2e mechanics, the latter is mostly mediocre.
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>>88088394
>Abadar
>Allows LG, LN, and LE.
>As long as they do business, they're alright in his book. No stinky neutrals tho.

>Iomodae
>Allows LG and NG
>What? LN followers? No I've never had those, definitely not, good only.

>Asmodeus
>Only LE
>Gonna be honest, not sure, this one's so dumb its hard to make a joke about
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>>88088574
Iomedae not allowing LN followers is the single dumbest fucking decision and flavor fail Paizo have ever made, considering she was quite literally the fucking Herald of Aroden, a Lawful Neutral Deity, and whom she is still fucking obsessed with to this day, and calls herself the fucking Inheritor!!!!

I swear the people writing this shit don't even play their own game
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>>88088785
I thought that was obvious when they made spellcasters entire gameplay style revolving around planning on your spells to fail hitting the target and rolling as little dice as possible. The whole concept could only be created by a bunch of nogame autists who havent rolled a player dice for years and have no idea of basic game playing psychology.
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>>88088980
The writers of TTRPGs at least are consistent in they often have zero fucking idea of game playing psychology, so that's not a PF2e exclusive problem.
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>>88085710
I solved a necromancer player not wanting to be evil by forbidding him from creating undead, and all his spells that involve summoning undead call a dead guy from the Land of the Dead to heed his summons. So it's more of a contractual, séance-ing business than perverting life by forcing a dead person into involuntary servitude.
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>>88089631
you could also go for a pseudo malconvoker route, where the undead he summons are borderline souls awaiting judgement, who can do afterlife work-release by being summoned to fight evil and earn goodboypoints so they end up earning one of the better afterlives. It's kind of fucked up to outsource labor to deal people but hey the world ain't gonna save itself and "helped save the world" looks great on an afterlife report card
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>>88086761
The weirdest fucking thing is that Golarion has like... 5 organizations and deities whose whole thing is glorifying the fight against slavery
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>>88077761
>congratulations on graduating from 5e to pf2e!
congratulations on graduating from Training Wheels to full Autism
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>>88090106
If PF2e's Full Autism, what's 1e?
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>>88090177
advanced autism and dragons
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>>88082428
Why even allow a player to play a "construct" race if you aren't OK with them being immune to certain things. Just say "no play something else"

Same thing with all the winged and undead PC shit, whats the point if you really aren't getting the real deal
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>>88060285
So then technically I suppose Avert Gaze would work vs Demoralize?

I'm not the original Anon but that sounds quirky. Fucked up but also kinda fun I suppose.

If the monster demoralizing you is especially scary and relies on that, I'd allow it. Otherwise I think even if you were out on the street and somebody yelled to intimidate you, even if you weren't specifically looking at them they'd still catch your attention and their words would still sting. I could see how Smoked goggles could maaaaybe get around this but I'm having a hard time believing this phenomenon was really intended.
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>>88090234
>Same thing with all the winged and undead PC shit, whats the point if you really aren't getting the real deal
because paizo want to have their cake and eat it too. they want to print le totally wacky out there fantastical player options just like 5e, but they don't actually wants races to be anything other than humans wearing a different colored hat. so they make these high fantasy out-there options and make the actual mechanics watered down dogshit that's utterly divorced from what's marketed. it's like ordering a sports car and getting a little hotwheels toy.

They do the exact same thing with tons of spells. Spells will have high fantasy cool sounding descriptions and then utterly mediocre effects in reality that aren't even worth using.

>With a touch, you strip off the flesh, muscle, and internal organs off your target, leaving only bare bones. The effect depends on whether the target is a living creature, undead creature, or inanimate corpse. A creature or corpse that lacks flesh, muscle, and internal organs is immune to this spell.
Wow, strip off their flesh, muscle, and internal organs? that sounds badass, this spell must be gnarly like skinsend or slough, right?
>melee range spell attack roll
>only does 2d6 damage on a hit
wow bro thanks for that spell that does literally half as much damage as shocking grasp for the same spell slot and also with worse rider effects and limited targets! (only does persistent on a crit, lmao, good luck with that, versus shocking grasp being +1 to attack and guaranteed persistent if they wear metal), very cool!
I'm not really cherrypicking either, the vast majority of spells (esp. necromancy) are like this unless you're using one of the like six spells that are actually decent (walls, heal, slow, synaesthesia, flight, magic weapon at level 1 and 2, fireball if your Gm takes pity on you and throws pointless mooks at you instead of what actually happens which is constant single big boss enemies in every AP)
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>>88062088
A fuckton of martials or spell-handicapped adventurers go for Trick Magic Item though?

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=857

>>88063017
That's correct. A casting dedication will let you do scrolls and shit. Correct me if I'm wrong but a lot of casters will go for the dedication of another caster just for another tradition list? Pretty nifty to be able to use that wand of magic missiles or what-have-you.

Some anon posted interesting magic item homebrew a few threads ago about some scroll book/binder/holder that would let the user keep a few scrolls on tab and attempt to use them as though they had Trick Magic Item even without the feat. It was some level 3-5 item and cost like 50g iirc. Fun, but I'd make it pricier in my world.
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>>88090343
this is a touch-range first level spell slot that requires casters to be in melee range and succeeding at a touch attack roll in order to do 2d6 damage by expending a limited daily resource.
using fucking electric arc against a singular enemy will do 6.5 avg damage with a basic save for half even on a fail. this does 7 damage IF you are in melee range and IF you hit them with a spell attack and does absolutely nothing on a miss (and you will miss a *lot*). and electric arc isn't even a cantrip meant for single target damage. the people making this shit straight up do not play their own game.
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>>88085922
>>88086006
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1699

They really should add a similar blurb for Strix/Sprite flight and Automaton shit so you mother fuckers will shut the fuck up.

Guess what? In 1e, if you played a race that had inherent benefits like flight or broad immunities, you did indeed get those inherent benefits. And most GMs banned those races, because they're really powerful.

Is it stupid that Skeletons, Automatons, and Strix lack powerful inherent benefits in 2e? Yes. Do I care? No, if anyone in my group wanted to play one I'd probably give them some sort of buff because I'm not running organized play.
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88090558
>Is it stupid that Skeletons, Automatons, and Strix lack powerful inherent benefits in 2e? Yes. Do I care? No
ok
but who asked (You)? lmao nice blogpost
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>>88090558
>just house rule it away bro
I thought we were supposed to get away from that attitude from 5e?
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>>88090668
If its a blurb that tells you how to play illegally, than its not a houserule, but a variant.
>>88090558
They do have it for Strix and early-PC flight. It still requires you to take feats, but it makes sure all other flying races keep at the same pace and lets you have full flight by 9.
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>>88090870
so by level 9 you're no longer a cripple compared to everyone else in your race?
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>>88091284
>Flying PCs: Certain ancestries, such as strix or sprites, have wings. The presented ancestry rules intend to provide a good combination of story and game balance for most groups. However, some players might have character concepts that don't fit this assumption and might wish to fly from initial character creation. At the GM's discretion, the GM can grant these PCs a 15-foot fly Speed, replacing any other abilities that involve flying, such as the strix's Wings ancestral trait. In this case, any feat that upgrades the PC's flying capabilities, such as the strix's Fledgling Flight and Juvenile Flight feats, might instead upgrade this Speed by an additional 5 feet. However, GMs who allow this option should be aware that a PC who can constantly fly can trivialize many low- and mid-level challenges, consistently outshining or leaving other characters behind; the GM should consider this option very carefully before allowing it and adjust the game accordingly.
Excuse me, the way the blurb states it you start with 15ft and use feats to increase it. Was mixing it up with the default faster wing scaling of Strix.
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>>88091560
Low level I can understand up to 5, sure, but shouldn't there be plenty of counters by mid-level? Not really familiar with 2e.
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>>88085619
PF2 has done an awful lot with treating elemental/binding as a form of slavery, and Eberron said the same shit all the way back in 3.5.
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>>88092197
enslaved elementals as power source has been around at least since moorcock
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>>88090294
I've never actually seen anyone enforce the rule, making deaf/blind people immune to demoralize, but as written some cool shades are enough. And standing 35 ft away makes the opponent entirely nonthreatening.
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>>88092587
Okay yeah I never thought of the range on that. You'd think it would at least be some shit like 50ft or 100? But we're sticking to "however much you can move... plus a bit!" I get that it hits pretty hard on a crit, but honestly I'll probably be very flexible with these parameters moving forward.

Good discourse though. Enjoy your evening Anon.
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>>88091560
Ah, I've never seen that paragraph before. Must be in Ancestry Guide and not have made it to AoN like the Undead paragraph did. Huh.
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>>88092587
So basically what you're saying is wearing Kamina shades is actually enough to make you immune to being Demoralized?
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>>88081983

If they want simulationism or immersion, either or both, they should be looking at GURPS...
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>>88082191

You can't have a whole personality if you are forbidden to include any parts of it.
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>>88093173
Of course. Just like in reality.
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>>88091897
Yeah, there are counters, but its still resourceless flight with no investment and demands you to either have a lot of ranged opponents or really big ones. Plus if those counters die, you are basically immortal.

>>88093135
Is part of Ancestry Guide and part of AoN in that book's Special Rules page (collection of the sidebar content). It also covers handling Tiny PCs and characters riding each other.
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>>88088980
>I thought that was obvious when they made spellcasters entire gameplay style revolving around planning on your spells to fail hitting the target and rolling as little dice as possible.
What?
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>>88087220
>Lolth has spiders, general villainy, drow specific shit, evil, darkness
This basically sums up my entire knowledge of Forgotten Realm gods. There's Lolth... aaaand, uuuh.
Not everyone cares. My current GM gave us recently his completed pantheon, which had like 50 gods and their family tree, and it seems all us players have silently agreed to engage with it as little as possible.
No offense to our GM of course, he loves world building and going over the top, but it can make things overwhelming when everyone is more focused on whats happening at the ground level to our characters.
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>>88094013
effectively, math works out to equal level enemies succeeding their save on a spell about 60% of the time
between that and spell slots being a resource, you effectively are limited to spells that do something good on a failure, because the majority of the time, the outcome will be failure
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>>88094013
PF2e casting progression, and how it interacts with monster save progression, tends to cause your accuracy with save spells to hover around the 45% mark, in regards to making an APL+0 monster fail a spell. So its encouraged to hunt for spells that will have a notable effect on a Success, or a spell that targets SO many monsters, you are destined to make one fail at it.
While that anon is obviously being reductive and hyperbolic, the truth of the matter is that casters are pigeonholed towards debuffing roles than raw damage, especially as martials don't have many options to support casters than vice versa. This is the biggest pain point of 2e and discussions around it.
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>>88094065
>>88094095
Oh. That sucks.
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>>88094108
As a fan of 2e and even its casters (I can have fun with Witch, and that's just the worst class nowadays), it really does just suck to work with, especially when you get deep into the nitty-gritty and learn how things like Fighter interact with spellcasting. There are a lot of solutions to the problems of spell accuracy that wouldn't step on their current design work in regards to spell design or general combat flow, as 2e wants everyone to feel like a team, but Paizo has been remarkably stubborn about it, not even providing variant rules for spellcasters. It leads to a lot of genuine COPEPOSTS about spellcasting, as much as overdramatic dribble about being FIGHTER-CHAD'S bottom-bitch.

I get not wanting 1e's levels of caster bonuses, and 2e does provide a somewhat-decent level options to help out casters (you can make fun of only having 6 good spells, but DAMN they are good spells that are incredibly effective at what they do), but it just isn't enough to handle the times when you are facing even an APL+1 foe. And while it is good advice to have a healthy selection of foes of varied levels in any given encounter, boss or mob fight, sometimes a GM just wants to throw a big dumb monster that DOESN'T make half the party useless.
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>>88094095
not entirely debuffing either
but rather debuffing weaker enemies, single target debuffing is something martials are flat out better at than casters
against single, difficult, enemies casters are mostly pigeonholed into a buff role
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>>88094176
quite frankly, my solution at this point would be for a 2.5 to just up and make spellcasting per-encounter rather than per-day
it's the last truly big sacred cow that's holding back the design focus of 2e's encounter design
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>>88094176
A lot of caster problems would be fixed if Staves that you charged on day start conferred an attack bonus to spell attacks based on the tier. Not like it's that out there considering a +1 weapon with the disarm trait gets to give a +1 to disarm checks.
>>
2e

Something's possessed me and I'm thinking of playing basically a pastiche of Chai from Hi-Fi RUSH. Translated, a free-hand Fighter who uses a Battle Lute with the Bard Archetype. Are there any immediate problems that I might have to deal with? (Beyond the Battle Lute costing 15 gp at start, of course)
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>>88094423
>Bard Archetype
>Not Familiar Master
Weak.
>>
>>88094423
The Battle Lute is also a one-handed 1d4 weapon, so you'd need to go Inventor to up it to a 1d6. Even then, a 1d6 B weapon with Versatile (P or S, you pick), Shove and Two-Handed 1d8 isn't very good. Cool as a concept, mind, but not a great weapon.
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>>88094462
I'm sure I can sneak that in as well somehow. Will look into it though, thanks.

>>88094471
Yeah I know, that's the idea. Fighter is in a really strong state in 2e, so I figured it wouldn't be too bad if I went for something slightly more unoptimized for the sake of fun.
>>
>>88094462
>>88094495
What class/archetype would Chai be
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>>88094495
>Yeah I know, that's the idea. Fighter is in a really strong state in 2e, so I figured it wouldn't be too bad if I went for something slightly more unoptimized for the sake of fun.
That's actually a really salient point. Fair enough, man, you do you.
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>>88094423
First make sure the rest of the table is alright with you fucking the cat, anon
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How do I build a 1e necromancer-type (probably gravewalker witch) that has 1 or 2 powerful minions instead of a horde? Any ways to mitigate the cost associated with replacing the dead minion when the inevitable happens?

Do I just take a pet or familiar class, and flavor the companion as an undead of whatever appropriate type?
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>>88094282
This really isn't incorrect, a +1 item bonus to spell attacks and saves bumps up their hit rates against on-level foes much more comfortably.
They can't really get full item scaling because there has to be a hard limit on the amount of buff stacking you can do (Paizo is technically right on the idea that a caster shouldn't have equal numbers with a martial because you will always have 4 different varying targets and you can multiple people with high powered options), but +1 smooths out their progression much more favorably, especially in the nadir of accuracy around Levels 11-14.

Or just make inflicting Misfortune/Disadvantage on saves way easier. That tends to equal things out.

>>88094256
No, it doesn't solve anything.
People's problems are the statistics, not the resource management aspects of playing a caster. Whether you have an infinite pool or only 1, not being able to land your spells is ultimately the real problem of spellcasting in 2e.
You would have to shift the balance all the fuck around and change spell design considerably to create a caster that never has to worry about encounter powers.
We probably do need an actual Unchained/2.5e someday if they ever feel comfortable in giving a big proficiency boost to casters, but I highly doubt they will ever go ahead and get rid of Vancian Casting.
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>>88095112
Bloody skeleton template and rise the highest couple of CR creatures you can find.
Always have a onyx of different costs on you too.
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>>88073005
Maybe something that can get around the crampedness. Like a ghost or a flyer that can keep up with the train and attack from/enter through the windows. Or maybe upscale a tiny creature and it can run through the parties legs and not get cornered.
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Trying to figure out something with medicine in 2e.

Can you use it every ten minutes without continual recovery? It says that if you succeed, you can continue treating wounds. Up to an hour, you then heal double the hit points.

My group has always thought this meant you could treat wounds every ten minutes so long as you keep succeeding, and if you do it for an hour you double the HP regained.

Someone is now saying you can’t treat wounds every 10 minutes. You just have to wait an hour but if you treat wounds the whole hour you heal double HP.
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>>88095646
https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=57
>The target is then temporarily immune to Treat Wounds actions for 1 hour, but this interval overlaps with the time you spent treating (so a patient can be treated once per hour, not once per 70 minutes).
the entire point of continual recovery is reducing that cooldown time so that you can treat wounds more often. if you could use treat wounds every ten minutes without continual recovery, the feat wouldn't exist.
>>
2e
Can I recall knowledge on a target that I've already identified?
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>>88094256
They wont ever do that because of yet another sacred cow that is
>4e bad
mentality. Even though 4e did the whole balanced tactics heavy thing way better than pf2e (a good ten years earlier mind you) and its largest problem is solved by "just cut monsters hp by third lol". Even the ivory tower design undeniably present in 4e wasn't near pf2e levels of bad.
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>>88095731
Pretty sure yes, but the DC increases.
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2e
So if I'm reading the rules on illusions right it means that even the caster himself who just placed lvl 1 Illusory Object of a brick shithouse needs to use an action to Disbelieve (and possibly fail) it. What a load of bull.
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>>88095681
Alright.

This seems like a dumb feat tax then because otherwise the very preached “start with full hp at every combat” is just straight up wrong. Sometimes you might roll double ones on those 2d8 and get...4 hp for an hour.
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>>88095835
It's something everyone with a positive wisdom mod should throw trained into until someone has continual recovery and ward medic and can just cover everyone.
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All the druid talk in this thread has me wanting to roll up a new one in 1e, whats your boys favorite archetypes/builds for everyones favorite hippy?
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>>88096108
Goliath Druid vital strike, or reach weapon with combat patrol and reflexes.
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>>88083764
You only have to use the roll if you strike the same enemy you devised against. You won’t always have other targets, but usually you will.
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>>88095982
All the groups I've played in try to bide their time at lower levels if possible. That way the person who has the best chance does all the checks and if more is needed, they work on the others until woundy boys cooldown wears off.
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>>88096108

Take their weird herbalism class feature option. No one ever does it because it's objectively inferior in terms of combat power but honestly the entire class needs to be nerfed into the fucking ground so don't feel bad about it.

Pass the drugs around.
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>>88095114

Vancian casting is the primary reason I just don't use Pathfinder anymore. It's - by a wide margin - the most fucking retarded game design of all time.

For a few years there, I tolerated Pathfinder as long as it used the spellpoints variant mechanics from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana / Psionics. The main problem with that was that it was so """"exotic"""" that players generally distrusted it and complained about it WHILE APPLYING to join my games... The audacity...

But then I just decided that I'd played d20 games too much and started doing other shit. GURPS curb stomps Pathfinder in terms of elegance of design and flexibility of character creation. The main problem with it is that no one ever plays GURPS...

I'm still never gonna play any game that uses Vancian magic ever again, though.
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>>88096335
have you ever tried playing pathfinder with spontaneous casting on everyone if you don't like it? nobody is forcing you to play by a rule you don't enjoy just as much as no one is forcing you to play a system you don't enjoy, anon
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>>88096304
>inferior in terms of combat power
If you weight it in terms of solo power, yes, but being able to hand out free buffs to your other party members turns it into a hell of a force multiplier.
It's funny that no one ever plays Druid though. In all my years I think I've only seen one.
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>>88094095
>While that anon is obviously being reductive and hyperbolic.
How was i being reductive and hyperbolic. The game's design pushes you in the direction of planning for failure and wanting as little dice rolled as possible because the game's math is simply against you.

Failing isn't fun even if you get a runner up prize effect that's barely worth the casting. Its then compounded by then watching another player who has an unlimited resource consistently hitting without any of the hoops you have to jump through, doing more damage when it hits and performs debuffs similar to the power of your spells. You watch this player be useful in all encounters while you are stuck to the sidelines during the big epic narrative boss fights.

Yes, Paizo's design team are a bunch of nogame autists who have no idea about player side psychology and its not hyperbolic.
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>>88095112
Speaking from experience, anon, a horde of undead is a good way to establish story-based dominance, while 1 or 2 powerful minions is how you establish dominance in battles. >>88095294 has it right if you want unintelligent undead, but if you want the best of both worlds try boosting your Necromancy DCs (or Dimplomacy checks) to the moon and create intelligent undead if you want to raise humanoid minions, that way they'll keep their character levels after being raised.
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>>88096335
New to GMing 2e, I've heard that the Flexible Casting variant sidesteps Vancian spellcasting, but I never read too deep into it. Is it good, or is there some other magical rule system (from another game maybe) that sucks marginally less ass than Vancian magic in your opinion?
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>>88097124
>player side psychology
lmao, about time somebody gives the rope to playerfaggots and puts the spotlight on GAME MASTER CHADS
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>>88098384
GAME MASTER CHADS want their players to have fun at the table. If half of the encounters you run make half of your players feel useless and especially if its those big epic boss fights that you want to pull off and be memorable then its a problem for us GMChads too.
>>
>>88096304
>>88096424
playing one now, and yes earlier levels it's weaker
but once you hit level 7 things get insane, if you get creative with it

first things first for personal usage: you can prepare spells in one minute, which means you pretty much always have the answer for whatever stuff you could possibly encounter

secondly: there's effectively no cost to you preparing a lv 3 or lower spell as a potion, you get a lot of literally free ones per day and it again only takes a minute to brew it, so if you take accelerated drinker you effectively pseudo-quicken your low level buffs
you can also add herbs to these potions, including the one that acts as enlarge person for a dual-action potion

and like the other anon pointed out, being able to hand your spells over to allies allows you to get creative with that shit, in a way even alchemists can't due to your spell list not being designed with the idea you can farm it off, like say, handing an extract of call lightning to a familiar/companion/random child down the road
Druids also helpfully get fey form earlier than anyone else which is a fantastic thing to hand out to your martials

there's also the factor where you can just break WBL, even if your DM rules you can't sell your free potions, any regular potion you make still costs only half to create and 1 minute to brew
"money doesn't grow on trees" doesn't apply to a druid

Talking again about free potions though, with even the smallest bit of off time you can create a veritable mountain of potions giving you, in practice, unlimited spell slots for the purpose of buffing. Enjoy your party just quaffing those max level barkskin potions like it's nothing

And a final factor is, it comes online 100% at lv 7, leaving you 100% free to prestige class to your heart's content, and there's some good ones out there

all in all, if you're addressing your party's power level rather than your personal power level, herbalism absolutely is not a nerf
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>>88098474
If you want a big single enemy then just reduce the will and reflex saves
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>>88098263
He knows it exists but he doesn't want to pay the 1 slot/spell level cost. Pretty much everyone who complains about 2e Vancian casting here wants to have their cake and eat it too.
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>>88098639
for me it's mostly that it's hard to properly balance the design idea of "a martial's turn should be equal in effectiveness to a caster's turn" with "casters expend daily resources per turn"
if balance is the key, removing the daily resource aspect will solve that
Part of the issue with spells having low success rates is that each use of a spell expends a precious resource, if said resource management is lower, you can be happy for example that your spell works in 2 out of 3 encounters, rather than the scenario where you fail and lose the ability to cast that spell for the rest of the day
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>>88095982
But how is it not a feat tax?

Why is treat wounds holding an hour cooldown anyway?

It’s literally “take a feat to make this system not shit.” That is the definition of a feat tax.
>>
>>88098764
It's a tax you pay in pocket lint and stale cake because its coming out of the same pool as group coercion and hefty hauler.
I'm not defending it for what it is, I'm just telling you to play around it intelligently or rule it for yourself at your table.
The worst part of it is healers tools are 5gp.
>>
>>88098384
>lmao, about time somebody gives the rope to playerfaggots and puts the spotlight on GAME MASTER CHADS
If that's what you want, D&D 4e is still better than PF 2e
>>
in 2e, theres 2 weirdo evil gods that allow good worshippers(and thus good clerics).
>>
>>88099591
Raumya having Good clerics is definitely wierd, and I'm wondering if someone at Paizo fucked up and wrote in NG instead of CE, since that would otherwise match his 1e alignment spread. Although, his religion does forbid abusing loyal followers and harming those below your station, so it might make some sense for him to have a few Good worshippers. But then again, Gorum explicitely forbids harming the innocent and POWs and he still can't have CG worshippers.
Azrani makes sense though. Her Good clerics are basically praying to the hope that there is some good left in her even with her being brainwashed to be Evil. Her follower alignements, Freedom domain and anti-undead stance all seem more suited to a TN deity than the NE deity she supposedly is, so there might be a grain of truth in that.
>>
>>88099777
The problem with Azrani is that Zon-Kuthon is supposedly in somewhat similar situation, but you definitely won't find any good clerics that worship him. Also, there was even a trait in 1e that allowed LG followers of Asmodeus with similar thoughts, but now he doesn't even have LN ones?
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>>88099942
thing is with zon-kuthon is that he is basically a different dude he literally got possessed by some mysterious force in the shadow plane ontop of the torture, while arazni is still herself, a broken version of what she once was but still herself.
>>
>>88100000
Yeah he's gotten into some weird shit, but from his relations with Shelyn it seems like he isn't a complete stranger.
>>
>>88098764
>Why is treat wounds holding an hour cooldown anyway?
On-the-spot first aid/surgery with no anesthetics in a grimey-ass dungeon.
Its probably for the best you don't have free reign to carve up your buddies as long as you want. You are doing Far Cry 2 healing animations on them.
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>>88096335
if you don't play or like pathfinder then go post in the gurps thread, retard
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>>88100769
Isn't this the "i hate 2e" thread?
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>>88100813
if you're asking that genuinely, no, retard
if you're asking that as a joke, still no, retard.
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2e
They say that some animals "cannot contribute to combat in any way" but that's obviously nonsensical, right? If I drop a horse on someone, it's going to do something no matter what. The horse can't just "stop contributing" when it's whole 1,500-2,200lbs is barreling down towards someone.

Are PFS notes optional rules, or just guidelines?
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>>88101009
anyone who's been kicked by a horse knows they absolutely can contribute in a fight

1 v 1 a horse could murder a wolf if it got in a good hit, and wolves are combat animals
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>>88101028
They certainly can, yeah. 2e horses also have combat stats and everything else.
I think the point of this >>88101009 horse is to be a trade good or to represent the average price of an untrained horse that can't be trained without over a year of effort. However, even untrained horses can contribute to combat in some ways, so it's still pretty strange.
>>
>>88101009
>>88101046
Its action economy/minion nonsense. Basically speaking, a standard Horse is a level 1 creature, and they're worth only 2 gold, so if they could contribute to combat then they'd be really powerful at level 1 and still useful until like level 4 or so
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>>88101245
could always handle it the 1e way: horse can attack but is under control of your DM who RP's the untrained horse as running the fuck away from sharp things unless cornered
>>
Name one good reason why me (an obedient wizard slut) shouldn't always pick Psychic dedication and use that Amped Message on my martial daddy on every 1st round of combat?
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>>88101245
>a horse costs less than a 4-person tent
I realize that this is Paizo we're talking about here (and economy hasn't even been D&D's strong suit), but that's still pretty fucking stupid.
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>>88101252
Costs the martial a reaction and theres a rules gray area as to whether you actually have a reaction until you take your first turn and gain your actions. Hence why most actions with the trigger 'you roll initiative' are free actions, if not all.

Amped shield though, that's spicy because blocking is YOUR reaction, not theirs. And it works without the amp.
Nice for an abjurer.
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>>88100432
>On-the-spot first aid/surgery with no anesthetics in a grimey-ass dungeon.
you don't get to use the muh realism argument for 2e lol
>Its probably for the best you don't have free reign to carve up your buddies as long as you want. You are doing Far Cry 2 healing animations on them.
except with a couple skill feats you DO, continual recovery is just a feat tax to make medicine equivalent to focus point heals which can already be done every 10 minutes forever. so why does one low level feat make far cry heal animations acceptable?
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>>88101504
If we're talking about realism in first aid, the PCs should probably contract some horrific medieval disease every second attempt. There's no way they have any idea about hygiene there.
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>>88101670
the point is realism is completely unrelated from the argument period, 2e doesn't care about realism at all. the only thing to care about is mechanics, and mechanically medicine has several outright feat taxes and skill feats in general massively suffer from ivory tower design despite paizo claiming to get away from both those principles.

there's some other retarded feat taxes (lmao, sorry bro, you are literally a LEGENDARY thief with legendary thievery, but you can't actually pickpocket things from people without taking the Pickpocket skill feat!) but Medicine is chock full of them. including retarded shit like this that's literally, unironically, 100% a pure tax with no upside whatsoever
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3495
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>>88101713
you failed your decipher writing check on page 253 of the crb.
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>>88101279
What do you mean, bro? A tyrannosaurus rex costing as much as 2 raccoons (common, so anyone can buy it) makes a lot of sense.
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>>88101945
well obviously it's a cripple T-rex without teeth after all it can't contribute to combat anyways

at least in 1e a T-rex was 8100gp but actually was a damn T-rex
>>
1e, concerning temporary hp and vampiric touch, you can't stack multiple amounts of temporary hp from it, right? it's just that every time you would use it, that newest amount replaces the previous amount, or is it with whichever amount is greater? like if i got 30 from one attack, lose 20 of it to an attack, and next round i get 25, that remaining 10 goes away and my new total is just 25, but if i somehow only rolled like 9, i'd still keep the previous remaining 10 but the 9 wouldn't stack?

am i reading the rule right?
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>>88103723
This is what I found off the SRD website. Off the top of my head I think you keep the highest amount.
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>>88103961
>temp hp from different sources stacks
fuck i feel retarded for forgetting this, I need to get my party to start stacking this shit, going into battle with 50-100 temp hp is dirt cheap if it works like that plus shit like the shroud that stores 10 hp for you.

of course I guess our DM could just make things a lot more difficult to compensate but just stacking false life and aid is a decent buffer
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>>88100834
>>
>At 1st level, your legs twist together into a slithering serpentine tail. Your speed is reduced by 10 feet (to a minimum of 5 feet), and you can’t be tripped.
>Your footwear melds into your body and is nonfunctional unless it provides a constant bonus and does not need to be activated. You also gain a tail slap natural attack that deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if you are Small) + your Strength modifier. At 4th level, your speed is no longer reduced by 10 feet. At 8th level, your tail slap’s damage increases to 1d8 (1d6 if you are Small) + your Strength modifier. At 12th level, your reach with your tail slap increases by 5 feet.
this is pretty based for a first level feature, now I want to play as a dude with a snake lower half and brag about how I've got two dicks
>>
Can a witch with the prehensile hair hex use their hair to walk around?
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>>88104786
only if she has very hairy legs
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>>88060832
Reign of Winter, because it's about touring the universe to collect waifus
>>
>>88072129
>nature archer
>Druid
>not taking Hinterlander PrC



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