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Previous thread: >>87446459
>>
Christ, sorry. Here's the ACTUAL previous thread.
>>87468489
>>
>>87493920
If you want the FULL damage, you have to specifically target only the golem. So against an Iron Golem, unless you have an acid spell that targets one creature BUT also targets saves instead of AC (that spell doesn't exist btw, ALL Acid Spells are AOE, Splash damage, or Attack Rolls), you're stuck using attack rolls.
If you actually read the fucking rules instead of making absolutely rediculous claims, you'd know this.
>Golem Antimagic: harmed by acid (6d10, 2d8 from areas and persistent damage); healed by fire (area 2d8 HP); slowed by electricity
See how areas are WAY smaller damage? To the point where you're barely out-damaging a martial with an unenchanted weapon vs their DR?
>>
My table is looking to move to different system from DnD and we have a player that claims pathinder 1e is much better than 2e. Is this in any way based on reality?
>>
>>87496339
Depends on what you want from tabletop.
pf1e is more simulationist approach whereas pf2e is more gamelike approach.
>>
>>87496346
i prefer simpler rules and sparse combat, but still smarter and more interesting than dnd. Which one do you prefer?
>>
>>87496411
>simpler rules
2e
>sparse combat
Different game than either
>but still smarter and more interesting than dnd
both
>>
>>87495956
"We got kratos as home"
>>
>>87496457
>Different game than either
how many combats per rest is pathfinder optimized for?
>>
2e question if it matters.
Are there any rules for conductive materials? Players are preparing to fight a blue and red dragon in an iron hall, I think it could be fun to have "the floor is lava" in the encounter after breath attacks etc?
>>
>>87496563
1e depends on multitude of factors, but I would say 3-5.
2e I heard someone saying 5 but I don't know
>>
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>>87496038
>BUT also targets saves instead of AC
it literally doesn't matter whether the spell in question requires attack rolls vs AC or a save. It all falls under "Effects" block which golem anti-magic tells us to ignore if the spell is just right. Also I only see "1 target" and no "splash" or "area" or whatever tag in Acid Splash description (despite the name) so we can use that. So how to we actually Cast a Spell?
1) Declare our action. "I am casting Acid Splash". That takes 2 of your actions.
2) Specify a target. "That iron golem looks like a fine target."
3) At this point normal spell effects come into play and you would ordinarily roll to make a spell attack, but what happens is DM telling you not to bother and then describing how the golem visibly corrodes, taking huge damage and screeching as if in pain. No splash damage happens either. That is of course if your DM isn't a retard like you and can actually read the fucking manual.
>>
>>87496530
The Diablo 3 monk predates nu-kratos and his beard by like a decade
>>
>>87495956
My group is wanting to try something different from our usual 5e, and I've been elected to run PF2. That's all well and good, I'll take a swing at it.

What do I need to focus on cramming into my skull in the next 12 hours in order to run an intro session?

Also, are there any links to the core rule books in pdf format that I can download? The various trove links in the intro don't work.
>>
>>87497013
Are you ACTUALLY retarded? You're calling /me/ a retard for not "reading the manual", and yet you yourself have called fundamental weapon runes "magical Abilities", which they very clearly are not, RAW.
Hell, by your completely asinine interpretation, a CR23 Solar (Hell, even Treerazor) would be completely unable to affect a Clay Golem in any way
And, considering Golems are in a large amount of Paizo official modules, you'd assume they have discussed "Hey maybe this monster that's possible to damage if you don't have a primal or arcane caster who has a specific (bad) cantrip or roughly 7 acid arrows, thus wiping about 80% of all parties, is a bad idea for this module"
Again, if you are a party who doesn't have acid splash, you lose via your interpretation. Flat out. You cannot win, without possibly cheese like fall damage or whatever. And even if you DO have acid splash, they need ~7 rounds to kill it. Seven rounds where the Golem can Inexorable March over, and grab your Wizard, and rip him to pieces. Or, if you use fly to get out of his range, then 8 rounds to rip the rest of your party to shreds. You're not living that long against a creature this strong. If you're just fighting one Golem, using the encounter builder, it's always at or above your level, so it will have no issues hitting anyone, hard. And if you're fighting multiple golems, that's even more turns. Even the /slightest/ bit of logic here shows how wrong you are.
>>
>>87497265
You only have 12 hours to learn an entire system? Why did you procrastinate so long?
>>
>>87497265
Archive of Nephthys has almost all PF2e content besides specifically adventure paths (though they do have spells/feats/items from said paths)
>>
>>87497342
Yeah, I know, I was just hoping to read through the formatted books since it's less info-dump-y and I wanted to learn the system organically.

>>87497330
The decision was made right before I went to bed last night. We might need to call a by-week to get prepped.
>>
>>87497307
>yet you yourself have called fundamental weapon runes "magical Abilities", which they very clearly are not, RAW.
>Hell, by your completely asinine interpretation, a CR23 Solar (Hell, even Treerazor) would be completely unable to affect a Clay Golem in any way
You must be confusing me with some other anon, I never touched weapon runes in my posts concerning golems. All I care about spell targeting. Nice dodge btw, getting btfo with rules and deciding to attack me on a false pretense.
>>
Friendly reminder that living in the Pathfinder world is living in the worst possible hellscape that can't improve.
>>
>>87497450
Well yeah
How would you have adventures in a fucking pony land
>>
>>87497418
>Getting btfo with rules
What? This entire conversation last thread was over Fundamental Weapon runes vs Golem antimagic. That's the only thing I really disagree with. My post above was to show that you simply cannot hope to reasonably take down a golem solely via "Harmed By", and that an AOE does not (usually) target and would thus trigger "Area: 2d8"
>>
Expanding on yesterdays discussion with the psychic sorcerer. Does the psychic bloodline opt the class out of Eldritch knight? Would be pretty sweet to see a heavily armored caster casting shit with his mind. I know esoteric knight is also a thing, but that guy has gimped progression.
>>
>>87497711
Eldrich knight is arcane caster only. I thnk psychic casters had somewhat similar prestige class though
>>
PF1
Anyone know of a feat, trait or class feature that takes away a character's ability to wear armor in his body slot but gives him a Natural Armor bonus proportional to Con bonus or HD?
>>
>>87497821
to be more precise 'removes body slot' as far getting any benefits there-of be they armor or any effect of magic items worn in the body slot
>>
Does anybody have a PDF for Impossible Lands? I've searched everywhere, from Soulseek, to Trove, to just typing "Impossible Lands PDF" into my search engine of choice and I can't find it.
>>
>>87497821
Not in a "you can't ever wear an armor" way. Excluding maybe shapeshifting shenanigans. And then there is Oozemorpth, but yeah.
Lots of classes and archetyes that lose their bonuses when wearing armor though.
>>
>>87496661
I would look at the hazard rules.
>>
>>87497821
Why natural armor specifically? That's pretty much strictly worse than just getting an untyped or dodge bonus to AC for not wearing armor, which is what 90% of those class features give so you can have natural armor on top
>>
>>87497935
innate natural armor stacks with barkskin/amulet of natural armor though
>>
>>87498075
>implying Paizo would not make that kind of class feat into enchantment bonus just to piss people off
>>
>>87498122
I mean, not really, all the other Stat to AC replacements have been dodge or innate bonuses so they clearly intend for it to stack

the only one I know actually is an enhancement bonus is Wood kineticist's defensive talent
but that's only because Paizo hates wood
>>
Tell me about 2E can you do fun grappling shit like rapid grappler, kraken style, throat slicer, bone breaker, final embrace and all the cool shit that involves more than holding someone down?
>>
>>87498305
Uh, kinda. I mean there's less feats in 2e than 1e (much younger edition), but like, there's a lotta grapple feats.
Monks have Clinging Shadows Stance (+2 to grapples and reach), Crushing Grab, Whirling Throw (super based feat), Barbarians have some similar feats.
There's also the wrestler archetype which has some of those monk feats, plus some really cool ones too like Combat grab (free grapple on attack, if you have MAP), Suplex (make a grappled creature prone and do damage) Elbow Breaker (cool name but it's just a disarm attempt), and a ton of other cool feats. Honestly wrestler is a really cool archetype, check it out. Throw that on top of a monk or Barbarian, and you can do some really sick stuff.
>>
>>87498230
They did make Monk movement bonus enchantment though, and I'm still salty as fuck about that.
>>
talking about grappling
(1e)
I'm wondering, do the "grapple with a whip" feats actually work out on the right class or not?
It's an interesting concept but the sheer unwieldiness of using whips makes me wary
>>
>>87498375
Does the game have a throat slicer analog yet? Honestly it just doesnt feel like grappling if its just a teamwork oriented set of debuffs rather than a gruesome form of combat that most people want to avoid.
>>
>>87498405
So they did
Huh, all this time I've just been treating it as innate movement speed
I'm just going to quietly keep doing that, party's already used to that houserule
>>
>>87498415
I mean, not *really*, but there are a couple "this is sorta brutal" moves you can do to a grappled creature. Fighters have Dazing Blow, where you basically slam the butt of your weapon into someone's face and stun them. And Wrestler has Spine Breaker and such. Though most of those involve giving damage + debuffs. But no, there's no "you can instakill someone you have grabbed" feat. There's a lot of things you can do to grabbed creatures (throw them, do damage + debuff, Suplex them, etc), but pf2 is pretty solidly against instawin abilities. There will probably never be a Throat Slicer like feat
>>
>>87498477
Lame, are grapplers at least competitive with dpr classes?
>>
>>87498477
is there at least a body bludgeon equivalent?
That rage power is god damn amazing, even if actually using it is beyond jank
>>
What are elves in the Pathfinder world, and how does magic work? I'm asking because as far as I understand every race can be a magician, and if they're not the Tuatha Dé Danann inspired folk they're supposed to be based on Tolkien's world, if they aren't the inherently magical people, there's not much of a difference between them and humans.
>>
>>87498550
>there's not much of a difference between them and humans
This. Elves are just pointy eared humans who live a long life. And there are elves all over the world so there are many different types of elf.
>>
>>87498496
Yeah they do fine damage. Using the grab action isn't even a complete damage loss since you can get crushing grab. And most of the cool grapple moves include a strike. Hell, Whirling Throw is a pure, non-attack skill check, so you can grab (do a little damage thanks to crushing), Flurry of Blows, then 3rd action Whirling Throw, dealing great damage with no Multiple Attack Penalty, and forcing the target to waste sometimes two actions to get back into the fight.
Barbarians can use Thrash which is more reliable damage (it's a fortitude save so no MAP).
Overall, you're really not missing out on much damage with a well-built grappler, and you get a great amount of CC. I personally think Monk is the way to go, because Clinging Shadows for that +2 and reach grapples, on top of flurry of blows and Whirling throw, but Barbarian is pretty nice too. Other classes are mostly grappling for the CC, not really for too much else (Fighters have Combat Grab and Dazing Blow at least, which are pretty strong on their own)
>>
>>87498550
+2 to spell penetration is a very good racial to have for mages. Most people have to rely on SR=no to avoid that fizzle but in theory elves are better geared for specializing around punching through it.
>>
>>87498606
Hmm interesting, so it sounds more like a ground and pound themed game than pin and kill. Does the game have freedom of movement or are all grapplers now equally viable?
>>
>>87498527
Yeah Barbarians get Collateral thrash, which is similar. Though it's a level 16 feat.
>>87498626
The game does have the freedom of movement spell but there's not a ton of enemies that have it up constantly. Mostly like, divine-tier enemies above level 20. And mages (anyone using a manipulate action actually) have to succeed a DC 5 flat check to cast a spell when grabbed which is a cute little bonus.
>>
>>87498527
Look up Thrash and Collateral Thrash
>>
>>87497935
Thematic, I am trying to make a stat block for a weaker version of Marilith. I want to scale her Natural Armor bonus as she gains HD

the no-worn-armor penalty to thematically represent that her body is so abnormal so she can make use of her 6 limbs while her torso can twist and extend like a snake to give her reach

and also I want to take away another slot for balance because she can already pick up and gain the benefits of 6 magical weapons.
>>
>>87498626
Freedom of movement isn't as strong, and is a little less common. It still BTFO's grapples, but against someone that has that, just Whirling Throw or something.
>>
>>87498550
Elves in the PF world are actually extraterrestrial beings from another world in Golarion's solar system. That world crashed, they left for Golarion, and then when THAT world almost ended thanks to Starfall they retreated to other worlds temporarily until the dust settled. 90% of the ones that didn't bail fell into becoming drow, and in most places that aren't nearby underground entrances the existence of the drow is at most a myth.
>>
>>87498752
>Elves in the PF world are actually extraterrestrial beings from another world
Ok but what's different about them
>>
>>87498796
Long lived cunts mostly.
>>
>>87498796
Not much, despite being aliens they still can breed with humans to produce half-elves. They have eyes which are completely black orbs, sometimes described as insect-like.

Only interesting thing is that any elf that is heinously evil enough will spontaneously transform into a drow, a thing that the elf illuminati wants to keep quiet.
>>
>>87498752
Huh. I guess that makes them distinguishable enough. I still think it's lamer than Tolkienesque elves though.
>>87498928
So I'm guessing orcs aren't corrupt elves either then.
>>
>>87497450
worse than planescape's outlands?
>>
>>87499089
Nope, Orcs are just there. They lived underground before Dwarves who also lived underground pushed them to the surface.
>>
>>87499204
So where does magic come from? How come everyone can shoot fire out their asses and like 2/3 of the global population apparently chooses not to?
Also why are there so many flavors of magic user? Is it really that different being a wizard or a sorcerer?
>>
>>87499345
According to the wiki "the true source and nature of magic is unknown".

The reason why random peasants don't use magic is because to use magic you either have to be born with it, learn a very specialized set of skills that requires years of study, or enter into an arrangement with a powerful otherworldly entity.

A wizard studies for years to hone magical abilities they control with their intellect. A sorcerer has innate power they inherited by being descended from or infused with the essence of a dragon, powerful wizard, demon, angel, hag, elemental, etc.
>>
Well our second session of kingmaker ended stupid
Jamandi didn't made a fuss about those 100 gold
But our sorcerer did he wanted either return the gold or split it between the party. But our ranger decided to hog them.
First they tried to kill each other in the halls of jamandis mansion where I stopped them.
Second time they fought after bandit raid at the Olegs
While I was talking with Oleg.
In the end ranger killed sorcerer and fled in random direction
Girl that played ranger said that she won't do the second character because she has a rule "1 character per party"
I feel like I'm playing with the kindergarteners
>>
>>87499633
Now our party consists of rat alchemist, 12 yo witch, linzi and a human fighter
So yeah I'm walking with the kindergarten
>>
>>87499633
So wait, the Ranger player killed a party member, fucked off into the woods, and refused to re-roll? What are they going to do next session? Did they just quit the group? Because if they didn't I'd be on the verge of kicking their ass out.

The gold shit was pretty understandable low morals adventurer shit, but I'm beginning to wonder if your players are all just dogshit.
>>
>>87499633
>>87499934
seriously, what the hell is her plan in this?
This better not turn into some attempt to strongarm you into letting her continue to play the Ranger, because that ship has sailed
>>
>>87499345
>How come everyone can shoot fire out their asses and like 2/3 of the global population apparently chooses not to?
Why aren't you in a meme tech career racking in 500 grand a year?
>>
>>87499934
I don't know man
And I don't care
At least I hope that we won't spend half an hour on pvp fight for no reason anymore
>>
>>87500099
I don't want to make you be the bad guy here, but I think you fucked up here. PVP without whole table buy-in is a meta issue, in the same way that somebody being distracted on their phone is or being a creep to other players. There is no "in game" solution to this; you're the GM, you see the weapons drawn and pointing at other PCs, you go
>So your character is turning against the party? Just know that there's no coming back from doing this.
>Okay, hand over your sheet, they're an NPC now.
>Spend thirty seconds narrating the quick clash of blades, somebody gets cut a little bit, the now NPC cuts their losses and runs.
>Cool, you can either re-roll a new character for next session, or we can have a chat after the session about what you want to do.
>Carry on with the rest of the session. Bring the Ranger NPC back in a few sessions as a mid-boss if you want closure for the arc.

Fuckwits who want to play the "haha I steal from my party members because I'm a kleptomaniac rogue" or sociopath murderer shit need to have this stuff either bullied out of them or for them to get bullied out of the hobby. There's room for shenanigans (I had a Goblin at my table who, over the course of the campaign, shat in every other PCs boots at least once), even a rival duel, but I ban outright PVP at my tables.
>>
>>87500263
I mean I'm not the gm
Im playing as a fighter
I was just trying to fix the situation
And our gm is a chill dude so I don't want to blame him
>>
>>87500430
well, at least make it abundantly clear that both IC and OOC if the ranger ever shows up again, they'll be treated like the villain they are
there can be no if's or but's about that
>>
>>87497157
What the fuck are you talking about? God of war 1 was 2005, diablo 3 is 2012
>>
>>87499345
>How come everyone can shoot fire out their asses and like 2/3 of the global population apparently chooses not to?
In order to cast a spell you need to have that ability score be equal to 10 plus that spell's level minimum. Most people are morons with mediocre mental stats. You don't really choose to be a Cleric, gods need to personally bestow divine power onto them and not everyone gets it. Becoming a wizard is time consuming and expensive, why doesn't everyone IRL become a brain surgeon? Because they're not smart enough and don't have the time or money or ability to go through med school and then an extended residency
>>
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>>87500543
>What the fuck are you talking about? God of war 1 was 2005, diablo 3 is 2012
can you not read?
>NU KRATOS AND HIS BEARD
spoiler alert, Kratos didn't have a fucking beard in God of War 1. The old man redesign with a big beard that looks like the d3 monk was years and years after d3's release.

this is what kratos looked like in 2005 bro
>>
>>87500430
Sorry for ranting. I assumed you were the GM and popped off. Chill dudes still gotta step up and captain the boat though, that's part of the GM role.

Best of luck with your table, my dude.
>>
>>87500709
Kratos also gets some fancy fuckin pauldron that curves upward in GoW2 just like what the monk has, what next buddy?
>>
>>87500881
He also gets greaves and bracers too but no one ever cared about those
>>
>>87499496
>>87500024
>>87500656
I see, so in a way magic in Pathfinder is like Nen in HxH; everyone has the potential to use it but you need to know how and train to get there. But then for some weird mutation someone gets to skip that training and becomes a sorcerer from the crib sometimes. I think I'd prefer sticking to one or the other for consistency's sake but it's not so bad.
Do purely magical beings like gods and all the stuff that can bestow powers to peeps count as super sorcerers?
>>
Thoughts, critique on my attempt to make a weaker Marilith?

Lesser Marilith CR9
CE Large outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)
Init +4;
Senses: darkvision 60 ft., trueseeing; Perception +11
hp 102 (12d10+36)
Fort +7, Ref +12, Will +11
DR 10/cold iron and good; Immune electricity and poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 19

Str 20, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 25
Base Atk +12; CMB +18 (+22 grapple); CMD 22 (can’t be tripped)
AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (+4 Dex, +10 natural, –1 size)

Feats: Exotic Weapon Profficiency (Falcata), Weapon Focus (Falcata), Improved Critical (Falcata),
Critical Focus, Bleeding Critical

Full Attack: +1 Large Falcata +17/+12/+7 (2d6+6 / 17-20 x3) and 5 Large +1 Falcatas +17 (2d6+3 / 17-20 x3) and tail slap +12 melee (2d6 + 5 plus grab)

Special Attacks constrict (tail slap, 2d6+3 plus crushing coils), infuse weapon, multiweapon mastery
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Weapon Attack Bonus: 17 : +12 BAB + 5 Str + 1 Weapon Bonus + 1 Weapon Focus
Weapon Damage Bonus: +6 : + 5 Strength + 1 Weapon Bonus

Abilities:

Crushing Coils (Ex)
A creature that takes damage from a marilith’s constrict attack must succeed on a DC 25 Fortitude save or lose consciousness for 1d8 rounds. The save DC is Strength-based.
Infuse Weapon (Su)
Any weapon a marilith wields gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, and strikes as if it were a chaotic and evil cold iron weapon (in addition to retaining the qualities of its actual composition).
Multiweapon Mastery (Ex)
A marilith never takes penalties to her attack roll when fighting with multiple weapons.
Spell-Like Abilities CL 12
Constant: True Seeing.
At will—align weapon
1/day: Fly.
Skills Tumble +12 jump, Bluff +14, Climb +13, Spot +11, Listen + 11, Search + 16, Knowledge (Planes) +9, Knowledge (arcana) +9, Spellcraft +11, Swim +13, Use Magic Device +11;
>>
>>87501303
Nah, a sorcerer is specifically a person who has inherited their power from a higher source, most often due to that higher source being one of their ancestors.
>>
>>87501303
Wizards learn magic through study and training,
Sorcerers inherit magic abilities through blood line
Clerics are conduits for magic from the divine
Warlocks and witches are granted magic abilities by quasi-divine entities
There is also a line of spells called Imbue With Magic Ability where the caster can occupy his higher level slot to grant any other creature a number of low level spells.

Said number scales with the target's HD, which is inline with how Clerics, Warlocks and Witches all get more spells as they gain higher levels.
>>
>>87501568
>>87501628
See but that's my issue with sorcerers; how come they get the special magic blood if everyone technically has magic blood? Back to my original comment, if elves (or any number of specific races) were THE magical people and you needed to make your character that race in order to be a sorcerer (while still being able to obtain magical powers through external means as a non-magical race) that would make sense to me. But adding wizards to the mix, meaning that everyone has inherent magic potential, confounds me.
>>
>>87501835
because they're direct descendants from really powerful magical creatures, like dragons
>>
>>87501835
>everyone technically has magic blood
Powerful enough magic to be a dedicated caster is a recessive trait, like red hair. You could also argue that being a Sorcerer requires an intersection of random genetics and some sort of activation event; a man whose most exciting day involves calculating tax law and is happy with that is unlikely to awaken the draconic power sleeping within him.
>>
Any shitty bits in abomination vaults I should be aware of? Mostly encounters that feel like they need some tuning
>>
>>87501894
Not him but how feasible would it then be for a society that has a system of formal education to teach students to use 0-level spells? Could anyone who was intelligent enough theoretically be taught to cast shit like Mending or Prestidigitation?
>>
>>87501945
So long as mister beak has level 3 phantom pain and not vampiric touch you're all set.
Everything else you can let it rip as written.
I particularly like the shuffling scythe blades trap.
>>
>>87502747
Sure, just like you could teach students to do trigonometry or speak a foreign language, or do a standing backflip. There's a lot of things even in our mundane reality that a lot of people could do if they had a little bit of time, practice, and expert attention. Of course most people are mundane, boring, and satisfied with being that way, so they probably wouldn't succeed at that.

But from the perspective of the game-lore intersection, this combination of time, practice, and expert attention is called "taking a class level," in this case in Wizard. Or maybe getting halfway through that first level of Wizard, if all they get are the cantrips.
>>
>>87502747
That's practically a concept in starfinder. They invented Universal Magic Theory at some point, and now any fuck can just grab a feat and get cantrip and low level spell or two.
>>
>>87495956
Let's say you were running a low magic 1e campaign. Would something like a talisman crafter Occultist be something okay for a PC to play? The focus on talismans and such has a definite subtle voodoo magic vibe to it rather than "bro, I read some books and now I shoot fire from my dick" wizard vibes.
>>
>>87502975
>play low magic
>is this spellcaster fine to play?
...
>>
>>87503002
There's a big difference between "bro take these good luck charms" and zapping niggas with lightning bolts
>>
>>87503021
Magic is magic, and if you want low magic there is kinda conflict in there
>>
Are full casters actually shitty and unfun to play in 2e or is it just a meme?
>>
>>87503102
encounters are designed around enemies succeeding their saves more than they fail them
if you don't mind failure state being the default for what you do it can be fine, if not, it's grating
>>
>>87503102
You don't get to benefit from 3 action system due practically every spell being 2 action, the party wants only certain spells so you will spend every fucking combat casting only those couple of spells(tight math does that you can't slack on that and do fun things), feel good moments where you wipe swarm of enemies with fireball are very rare due the system and that swarm was not really a real threat anyway.

But yeah.
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>>87503102
It depends on a lot of things. Most spells in the game suck. If you don't really know what you are doing it's very easy to pick things that sound neat and have a a garbage character. Most of the really powerful stuff has incapacitate so depending on the encounters you are in they may do next to nothing. They are a lot of fun if built correctly and you have decent encounter design. If your campaign is just one large monster fights constantly then it can feel pretty bad. Overall it really depends on what you want out of a caster. Most of the people who bitch about them in 2e just liked all the incredibly OP shit they used to be able to do. It's much more balanced now but there are pluses and minuses to that situation.
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PF2E
What's the best way to make a gun-toting Magus work? Besides Gunslinger archetype of course. I know action economy means it's unoptimised but I think it's cool.
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>>87503102
Yes
Redditors think it's a good thing because it supposedly makes up for past edition oppression of martial minorities and will tell you to check your caster privilege if you complain about it.
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PF2
Currently scratching my head regarding the implementation of hexploration. As it stands its a barebone time filler via encounters/hazards for when the party goes from point A to point B, did you guys had any homebrew system to propose to make the hexmap more interesting, like, proper per-hex-resources that would interest the average party? I did a super cool map and I wanna squeeze some good use out of it
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>>87503276
Starlight span magus with gunslinger dedication
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>>87503102
It's mostly people whining because they're so much less powerful than they used to be. If you want to continue to be a toolbox character that has something to help with everything, you'll be good. If you want to be able to completely ignore the party and solve problems on your own, you'll be mad.
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>>87503290
Forgot pic
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>>87503406
>>87503290
I get that it's fun to make fun of the dumb shit they say, but I literally played a wizard in my last campaign and I still had a good time and meaningfully contributed.

>>87503102
It's like this: If you're a blaster, you will blast. If you're a buffer, you will buff (the frontliners). If you're a problem solver, you will have utility spells. You will probably have to lean more into one of these roles than you did before, as simple low level spells don't carry absolute umph. It's much more important that you consider your caster's build outside of spells, since spells are not instant solutions anymore, but more comparable to the daily or limited abilities of martial classes.
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>>87501628
The difference between witches and clerics still feels a bit odd. Clerics are with gods, and witches are also associated with gods sometimes, but the weirder kind and other types of higher beings. Is that how it is?
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>>87503496
It has to do more with faith. Clerics aren't just given power, their actual faith and devotion is how they harness the power of divine magic (which is itself comprised of the building blocks of souls). A witch's familiar, whether it be from a god or something stranger, invests power into the Witch.
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PF2E
Is the Fighter/Ranger with flurry really as strong as the gm guide makes it sound? It only points out press actions and idk if it's as big a deal as it makes it seem.
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>>87502975
There's a lotta really bad spells. And there's a lot of really good ones, don't let people tell you otherwise. Buffs are a big deal in this edition, and the save spells do pretty good damage (especially if your GM let's you use a few Uncommon spells like Sudden Bolt). But you really gotta work with your martials, don't expect to wipe out encounters entirely on your own. 2e doesn't really have my reliable save or die spells, and the ones it does have are Incap so they likely won't stick on stronger enemies. Also the Divine List is pretty animic, though Heal is extremely strong I guess.
Battlefield control spells, area spells (even if you just hit 2 or 3 dudes), and buffs/debuffs are all solid.
Wall of Force/Stone/Flesh/Ice are obviously still insane. Walls existing at all make casters incredibly good at mid-levels. Debuffs and Buffs are always good (a +/- 1 is a really big deal in 2e) at all levels. Right at level one, Bless and Magic Weapon are great buffs, Goblin Pox and Fear can completely turn the tide too. Grease and Mud Pit are really good at all levels, so is Aqueous Orb if you use them intelligently.
Sudden Bolt, Fireball, Grim Tendrils, etc are all pretty strong damage without a spell attack roll. True Strike makes some of those attack roll spells not so terrible too. Spells like command are always useful too. Even Electric Arc and Scatter Scree are pretty good damage off cantrips thanks to being saves and multi target. And these are all really low level options. You'll pretty much always have. These are all arcane/Primal, but occult has some really strong unique options too. Divine... Well Cleric has a billion spell slots at least, and you can find an obscure god with good granted spells and oracle's... Have like 2 viable builds. Fire Oracle is pretty based though
Overall, you are more reliant on Battlefield Control and Buffs/Debuffs, so you're forced to work together with martials. Your damage is fine, but not as amazing as a fighter.
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>>87503630
They fucking shred, but that's a good thing. If someone rolls up to your table with that, enjoy that you can put some tanky shit in front of them and it won't overwhelm the group.
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>>87503480
>If you're a blaster, you will blast.
Just less often, less effectively and with much higher investment than a mediocre martial
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>>87503630
As in the dual-class? Most character advancement in 2e is horizontal, rather than vertical; how good your class is at its best thing is determined almost entirely by its core feature progression. Adding more class features usually makes you extra wide; a fighter-wizard has more things to do at any given moment but does those as well as a normal PC. Fighter/Martial dual classes break this, because Fighter weapon proficiency is multiplicative with any other martial damage amp. Fighter/Barbarians are the same way.
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>>87503708
There's some editorializing going on there. Casters still have a much easier timing attacking multiple enemies at once, for one thing, and a good portion of spells carry a damage type that you can use to your advantage. Your damage will be fine
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>>87502747
Yes, but there are problems with it, at least if you're using the normal rules. You can't cast spells if you have less than 10 in the appropriate ability score, so that means something like 1/3 to 1/2 of all humans (or any other race without a bonus or penalty to intelligence) just aren't intelligent enough to learn it at all. You also have to prepare spells as an arcane caster, which takes an hour of study every day. Casting cantrips is useful, but it's not that useful. Alternatively you could model it by giving people the Magical Talent feat, which seems to be far more permissive, but you only get one and can only cast it once per day.

I guess if I were doing it myself I would make it a racial trait that works like the magical talent feat, but you pick two spells (from a short list, teaching kids acid splash or some shit like that seems like a bad idea) instead of just one. If your intelligence is 9 you lose one of them, and if it's 8 you lose both. Maybe you could get bonus cantrips equal to your intelligence bonus too, but that's probably pushing it. I don't know the rules as well as I could though tbqh, so maybe someone else has a better idea.
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>>87503543
That really puts it in perspective anon, big thanks. It's real interesting how the fluff handles all the ways people can use or be associated with magic. The archetypes can make some things feel same-y but I'm getting more and more absorbed into the lore stuff.
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>>87503758
however, due to 2e's math, multiple enemies are never even remotely as close a threat as they are in 1e since low level enemies can't really threaten you

like in 1e, getting surrounded by a pack of ghouls was terrifying even for mid-level characters
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>>87503644
God damnit, I meant to reply to THIS
>>87503102
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>>87503778
My eyes were super unfocused when opening your pic, and I unironically thought it was Jason Momoa with his aquaman tattoos hugging some weird fursuit mascot abomination.
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>>87503984
It's probably fine.
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>>87503644
>Wall of Force/Stone/Flesh/Ice are obviously still insane
Except for wall of thorns, how the mighty have fallen
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>>87504035
What the fuck am I looking at here? Feels like some weird AI generated shit
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>>87504134
It's basically an image that is specifically designed (I think it was done by an AI) to not actually look like anything but at first trick your brain when you don't focus on it to think there is something there. People posted them a lot a couple years ago before the whole AI thing really kicked off.
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>>87504037
Its so weird to me that it's not Greater Difficult terrain. At least then it would be pretty solid CC. But since it's only normal difficult terrain, anyone can just walk through for the cost of about 15 damage, and still have some movement left over.
Honestly it would be a really interesting spell if it was greater difficult terrain (logically it should be. Have YOU walked through brambles?). It would take 2 turns for most creatures to get through, so they'd have a decision of whether to spend their turn wading through, or trying to cut it down.
>>
Are we allowed to talk about Savage Pathfinder here? I love Savage Worlds.
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>>87504594
how different is it from non-pathfinder savage worlds?
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>>87504665
It's definitely more high power than normal savage worlds fantasy, though savage worlds has things like RIFTS where starting characters in that have maxed out stats in some attributes, so it's not the highest power setting. It IS one of the few official books where they allowed the core rules to be reprinted in it so that's cool.

Also they don't have classes, they have professional edges that are class packages-- and monk is probably the strongest one in Savage Pathfinder.
>>
What do people think about Starfinder here?
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>>87505538
I personally don't like it. The setting is kind of neat but even with the retrofitting they did the Pathfinder system doesn't do sci-fi very well, especially in combat.
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>>87503644
Why is fire oracle good?

Starting at level 1.
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So I've been trying to learn more about Pathfinder because of all the OGL stuff.

There are actually official rules for custom races? Is this something most tables take advantage of or do people tend to mainly stick with the official races?

Asking because there are a few DnD races I'd like to play in Pathfinder and this seems like the easiest way to import them.
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>>87505889
Never done it personally, in my experience most people will either use the stock races or do some bespoke modification to an existing monster.
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>>87505889
Pathfinder has so many god dang races as it is (and so much customization in both editions within the bounds of a single race) that there aren't that many instances of things like 5e's Custom Lineage. This is partly because there's a lot more baked into the mechanics of what a creature is in Pathfinder and it's also because (ostensibly) of balance concerns, though at least 1e has something akin to a race creator you can use that basically assigns a point cost to a race having access to certain abilities.
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>>87506029
>They post a 1e book
>you assume 2e
2etards go home
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>>87505889
Just check d20pfsrd, but basically, custom races are grounds for abuse. This isn't custom lineage with gay ass features, we're talking +2 to one stat, +4 to another, a bonus feat, maybe even DR/5 cold iron on top of other goodies.
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>>87505928
>most people will either use the stock races or do some bespoke modification to an existing monster.
I really just want to play a changeling. The Pathfinder Kitsune race kinda comes close, but their shapeshifting abilities are practically non-existent compared to Changelings, and I really don't want my PCs base form to be a furry.

>>87506029
>there's a lot more baked into the mechanics of what a creature is in Pathfinder
How exactly? The only time I've ever played was a short RotRL campaign way back in Highschool and the only option we had restricted were elves because our friend running the game said he didn't like them.

>>87506081
I found the rules on the d20 wiki and just used the first image I could find for the post.

>>87506088
Yeah, there are a fuckton of options. I really like it compared to how limited 5e is, beyond straight up homebrew of course.
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How do I get my dm to touch my pp? Which class should I play?
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>>87506081
My post is valid regardless of edition, retard. Things like Ranger's Favored Enemy mechanic or Aasimar and Tieflings being immune to any spell that targets a Humanoid since they technically count as Native Outsiders are a perfect example of intrinsic rules in 1st edition that make adding more races an increasing headache if you're trying to make a new race without considering all of the factors involved.
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>>87506206
Summoner. An aquakineticist specced for healing might also work.
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>>87506271
Huh, I never would have thought kineticist had a healing build. What's so special about these two options?
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>>87506481
>orc floyd
Lel
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>>87506284
They're the only two things I've ever seen more than one person ban. The Summoner for being OP (supposedly), and the Kineticist because you can get infinite, highly potent healing at no cost, although I don't exactly remember how.
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>>87506271
assuming this is all 1e
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>>87506575
>>87506606
How does being OP or immortal and getting banned lead to pp touching?
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PF2E

i'm looking for a trove since i'm starting from scratch, i know archive of nephthys has almos everything but i'd rather have the PDFs and the links in the intro dont work, any suggestions on where to get?
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>>87506720
check the repository threads and do your homework
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>>87506720
>>87506739
all you need to know right here.
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>>87506739
PF-Repository does not work
search does not bring up anything from the past few months
Looks like it got dropped completely
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>>87506792
If you can't find it, good, that means it can stay up longer.
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>>87506800
well that sucks, thanks anyways i guess
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>>87498415
It's never going to have a Throat Slicer analogue.
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>>87503102
Casters are fine. Lots of people whine because they now lean hard into a playstyle of deterrence and control instead of being able to minmax DCs to win encounters with a single area spell.
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>>87504578
guess like with everything else that was powerful in 1e, they took the nerf-bat to it so hard it's useless and refuse to back down from that
which is a shame, yes wall of thorns in 1e is almost ridiculously powerful, but at the same time, it's also a very iconic spell for a plant-themed druid or witch
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>>87507305
you mean buffing and numerical debuffing right?
deterrence and control is a fairly sub-optimal way to play
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2e
Is there a hooking/pulling mechanic for martials? Closest thing I've found is shove action.
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>>87507289
Gay
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>>87505538
I liked it. The ship mechanics and constantly buying new weapons are the only sore points i have with the system.
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>>87506629
Why do you want your GM to touch your PP? I'm my groups gm and i wouldn't want to wish that on any of them.
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>>87503102
Dismiss the redditors telling you spellcasters are fine and only the mean old powergamers from pf1e or 3.5 are bitching about it. Spellcasters are fine if you play them the ordained way by paizo which is being a buff monkey. Every other style of play is substandard which is a really sad state of affairs when you have multiple spellcasting classes and you have to play them all basically the same way. People aren't bitching about spellcasters because they cant be OP, those people just moved on to playing the fighter. People are bitching because they cant play wildshapers, enchanters, conjurers or blasters in any meaningful way because the spells are bad and they have no feats to improve them.
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>>87508160
Honestly paizo could fix the spellcaster problems tomorrow by releasing a book with spell potency runes and feats that improve certain spells or schools. Blasting could easily be made much more viable with a selective spell metamagic feat.
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>>87507325
I think greater difficult terrain would have been a good sweet spot honestly. Two or 3 movement actions to get through seems fine in the 3 actions system. It would still be a good deal weaker than in pf1, and it's a lot easier to chop down.
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>>87507546
No. I do allow my players to "shove" a creature towards them, and each move 5ft back. There's also the fighter's dragging strike which is similar to that. Honestly would be a fine skill feat, but for some reason Paizo seems allergic to printing new skill/general feats
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>>87508160
You're wrong though. You've clearly never actually played a fucking caster, you've looked at a few spells, shit yourself that they weren't as good, and then went back to PF1.
Blasting is fine, you do good enough damage, there are a few unironically quite strong damage cantrips, and the (non spell-attack) blasting spells are quite good, even if you don't hit more than 2 people with them. If you allow uncommon spells, Sudden Bolt smokes the shit out of Martials damage wise. Especially since you still get some damage if they succeed their save.
Enchanting is great. Command right at level 1 is great, and always is great. Confusion can be very strong too. Fear, Crushing Despair, Befuddle, Agitate, hideous laughter, Calm Emotions are all very good too, and those are just ones I saw from glancing quickly at the enchantment list. Plus the enchantment buffs like Heroism and such, but you hate buffs I guess. Heroism lasts 10 minutes so you don't even need to waste time in combat. Hell, just buy scrolls.
Conjuration does suck yeah, unless you specifically summon cheese monsters. I do unironically think they shouldn't be this weak, but I personally don't like summoning all that much since it makes combat take longer. Still though, they ARE mostly useless outside of cheese, I'll give you that.
Wild shape, while it isn't really that bad, is sorta pigeonholed into like, Frog, and Bear. It does contribute, it's not useless, I wouldn't mind being in a party with one, but yes they do need some more options. Honestly wild shape feels like it should be its own class, being attached to druid for old times sake is weird, druids do much better as full Primal Casters in 2e
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>>87508184
A selective spell metamagic feat?
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>>87508374
>going full damage control
Now lets see if any of those are mathematically as good or better as just being fucking buffbot
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>>87508436
What would the measure of that even be? How do you measure a non-damaging control spell against something that makes the Fighter crit more often?
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>>87508374
all of those spells you mentioned under enchanting are good on paper
UNTIL you remember that the vast majority of enemies worth using those spells on will make their save

caster in 2e is a bit like getting an icecream cone, but being told you can only eat the cone
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>>87508522
Are you complaining that you can't trivialize significant encounters with save or suck?
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>>87508562
Fighter trivilizes significant encounters by being fighter, and I don't see you complaining about that
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>>87508579
You really haven't played, I see.
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>>87508586
Play same encounter with 5 fighters vs 5 wizards, and see which party has difficulties
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>>87508588
Ok, the encounter is "Feeding a town of 500 people in less than an hour". Go.
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>>87508588
What a disingenuous proposition.
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>>87508382
A pf1e metamagic that let you cast blasts while having safe spots for your allies. i think 5e also had a version too. It boggles the mind why paizo hasnt released a 2e version of this to help out blasters unless paizo just want to keep spellcasters in the their buffer niche box which i assume is the case.
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>>87508599
>non combat encounters
they do not matter and wont wipe the party so they are irrelevant in the grand scale of the things
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>>87508700
Nice dodge.
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>>87508702
Say one non-combat encounter that has ended the game
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>>87508602
not him, but the common complaint about casters in 1e was that a party of 4 casters was strictly better than a party of 4 martials

if the inverse is true in 2e that's just as big a problem no?

>>87508562
I'm complaining that the default state for casters is failure in everything they do, which is not true for martials
ontop of that, quite a few things casters can do once a day with failure rate, martials can do unlimited amount of times with no failure rate (eg slowing)
>>
Having done some minor playtesting with an all-caster group vs. an all-martial group, we found that things were pretty even.

Did five battles with one set encounter for three different level tiers (6, 12, 20) and found that martials started out with a heavy advantage, with things evening out significantly at 12, and casters having a slight advantage at 20, generally finishing encounters a few rounds earlier than the martial party.

The casters ability to easily access AoE spells and movement/escape spells made dealing with crowds significantly easier, and controlling or isolating powerful foes (say, by way of Prismatic Sphere or Wall of Stone or any other such spell) was a powerful tool for casters, but martials sheer durability and raw damage made attacking and killing elite enemies far easier.

While martials are more durable, I think casters proved a fair bit more survivable, with one combat encounter in particular dragging out for half an hour past our loss because a particular caster was loaded up with over-time healing...

In the games I've personally played in 2e, I think the two shine in different areas. Our wizard has trivialized or made encounters far easier with utility spells (a mystery adventure in particular relied on them using shapechanging, restoring a burnt letter with magic and a few other tricks), and they're very useful in combat, too-- but I agree that Haste and Slow is kinda too good for what it is-- every important encounter more or less starts with them casting that, since it lacks the incapacitation trait for Slow and Haste being universally useful.

Or maybe more accurately, other spells aren't as good. Undermine Reality is a noteworthy exception and a generally godly spell.

But even with that in mind, our party's two casters have had a pretty good time with it, and find opportunities to cast Disintegrate and other damaging spells to good effect. Generally the less powerful the enemy, the less Slow you'll have to cast.
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>>87508708
Trap.
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>>87508599
How are wizards better at that than fighters?
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>>87508741
Traps are combat encounters
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>>87508721
course the question is, how often do campaigns actually get to the point people can cast disintegrate
most campaigns never make it past lv10 after all, which was also true in 1e and why the whole "high level casters trivialize the world" thing was nowhere near as prominent in actual play as it was in theoryboarding
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>>87508754
And if I say "Diplomatic meeting" are you going to move the goal post and say "social "combat" is still combat"?

>>87508753
Retard.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=52
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>>87508775
>Cast 1 hour
>challenge is to feed a town of 500 in less than an hour
>even 8th level heighten can only feed 200

in that time the fighter can have killed an elephant, butchered it and fed 500
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>>87508775
>https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=52
Why the fuck does this spell take an hour to cast. Paizo really need jew casters in every fucking spell they cast.
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>>87508599
When people talk about whether X class is better than Y class, they're talking about scenarios that actually come up in the game. Wizards being better at something that'll happen zero times over an entire 1 to 20 campaign is immaterial to class balance.
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>>87508852
see
>>87508792
the wizard literally cannot complete the challenge as presented
they cannot feed anyone in less than an hour because casting the spell takes an hour
and even if they could, the spell only feeds 200 people at max so they have also failed to feed 500 people, and that's only if you can cast 8th level spells, at the levels where you would actually encounter the "feed a small village" encounter, you can only feed 12 people with your spell
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>>87508775
> Diplomatic meeting
What is a spellcaster going to do in a diplomatic meeting that a diplo skill monkey cant do better?
>buff diplo
Welp, you just proved the point that casters are nothing but buff monkeys
>Charm
incap stops it against higher level npcs and has a high risk of fucking over the entire meeting compared to a diplo skill monkey with a far greater chance of rolling high with an above curve modifier, hero point rerolls and other party members aiding.
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>>87508878
not to mention that even if they buff their own diplo they won't be as good at it as the diplo skill money unbuffed
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>>87505889
in games i;ve been in, it has mostly come up for NPCs, sometimes henchmen and hireling nps.
Pathfinder has such a huge variety of classes and variant of those classes that most players just stick to experimenting with that
but i don't think most DMs would object to a PC trying a monster race.
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>>87508710
>The default shake is failure
You are LITERALLY incorrect. First of all, Spellcasters should have the ability to target all 3 saves, but let's say you didn't recall knowledge and you happen to pick their middle save. Let's look at a level 7 wizard vs a level 7 Young Black Dragon. Lets say you want to make them fail their wisdom save, at +15
This wizard has +4 int, and expert in Arcane spells. Their DC is 10 (base) + 4 (int) + 4 (expert) + 7 (level), for a total of 25. Thus, this on-level dragon will fail about half the time. But since most spells have a better crit fail, and crit success doesn't do much usually for will saves, you're overall "succeeding" more than half the time.
Hell, lets look at a level 8 Blood hag. A higher level enemy. And let's say you pick their BEST save. At +17, you're still succeeding 35% of the time, against a higher level enemy, on their best save.
If you actually try to target their worst save, things are looking way better. That Young Black Dragon only has a +12 reflex save. Vs a Sudden Bolt or whatever, he's only succeeding on a 13 or higher. That's a 60% chance for full damage. At level 7, that's 39 damage on a fail, 78 on a crit fail, and 19 on a success, and obviously 0 on a crit success.
(39*.5)+(19*.35)+(78*.1)+(0*.05) = 33.95 damage. A fighter attacking Twice with a Greatsword vs that Dragon's 25 AC while it's Flat Footed is only dealing 30.6 damage. You're beating the fighter, while he has the enemy debuffed and you don't. I really don't know how you can ask for much better than that. Not to mention you're much further away from danger, can target weaknesses, can debuff, buff, throw up walls, difficult terrain, etc. What fucking more do you want? To beat a Greatsword fighter single target with Cantrips? To just instantly Plane Shift the Dragon away turn one?
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>>87508915
people in the previous thread already pointed out recall knowledge doesn't actually let you know what save to target
and if you're using a maximum heightened sudden bolt then you're not also doing everything else because spell slots are limited and you can't exactly burn literally all your high level spell slots on one encounter

not to mention that you're doing less damage by expending an extremely precious resource on an average save against a similarly-leveled creature

and further away from damage? Most of the time casters are well within danger range
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>>87508915
>50% chance to hit a creature of moderate threat with a limited high level spell is fair to a fighter doing comparable damage with 2 unlimited resource strikes in the same round.
Actual retard.
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>>87509001
Sudden bolt is also the only spell of its kind released in an early AP. The designers have openly seethed about this spell being out there as its "above the curve" and with it being uncommon its in a "mother may i?" situation with the gm.
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>>87509001
>>87509051
>b-but surely paizo can't have erred by overnerfing casters, they're le heckin wholesome saviors of TTRPGs fighting back against evil hasbro!
>Edit 1: Thanks for the gold kind stranger!
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>>87509001
>You're expending a resource
Oh boohooo I can't beat the literally best damage class in the game with a d12 weapon on every single turn. Cry me a fucking river dude.
And yes, you're technically right about recall knowledge, but I've never seen anyone actually run it RAW. That isn't a defense of the system, you are correct there. That being said if you do play RAW, you can usually get a feel for the enemies saves after a turn or two if you have people using a few skill actions (grab/demoralize/trip/etc).
Also Sudden Bolt/Hydraulic Push is 60ft. Lightning Bolt/acid arrow is a 120ft line. Fireball is 500ft range. Considering enemies usually have a speed of ~25, that's 3 actions to reach you. Sure, you may not be in a room that big, but it's not hard to stay over 25ft away, thus making an enemy spend 2 actions to reach you, and likely triggering AoOs. Hell, even those 30ft spells like fear, command, etc force two actions if you position correctly. Plus you have reach spell. Or you can stride away after casting.
>>87509051
>Having a 50% chance to deal full damage, 35% chance to do half damage, 10% chance to do double damage, all from 60ft away while the fighter has to eat Draconic Fury over and over. Plus I can put up walls, slow, force creatures to drop weapons, hit multiple creatures at once, impose difficult terrain, Teleport, buff, debuff, turn people invisible
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>>87509109
also the average reflex save for all lv7 monsters is in fact 15, not 12, and the average AC is 24 not 25

and not only that but as you said, sudden bolt is unique, you can't just "target another save" easily
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>>87509001
Are wizards supposed to out-damage a fighter/barbarian/Range/etc every encounter? Being able to push past them with your top slots, and being about even or maybe slightly behind with your next highest slots seems pretty fair, especially given you can do things besides cast blasting spells.
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>>87509152
The point was targeting their worst save, not their average save.
And yes you can target another save. If they have shit Fort, use slow or something. If they have shit Dex, blast them. If they have shit wisdom, use fear or command or Synesthesia. Not that there aren't decent damage spells for Fort and Will, but there are often better options
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>>87509169
I think we're focusing a bit too much on the damage aspect
the main point I wanted to make before is that on average, a wizard fails at what they do
and as said above, they don't actually push past them, even with the single best damage dealing spell using their highest spell slot

at that point why does the option even exist?
>>
>>87509117
I can agree with the spirit of what you said, but taunting like that is a bit much, anon. A bit too low quality, a bit cringe. We can't stoop to the level of 2e players
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>>87509203
"if it's not always better than the fighter, why would I ever do it"
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>>87509122
>Maritalfag being a retard.
If a spellcaster is bringing out the big top level spells then yes they should be doing more damage than a guy with a fucking greatsword 4 times per day. Are you actually so mindbroken by 3.5 spellcasters that you cant see how stupid your argument is?
>Most enemies only have 25 foot speed.
This is hilariously wrong the higher level you get. Your young black dragon can fly 100 feet towards you and draconic fury your 6hp ass to death in 1 turn and even if it doesn't, many creatures have ranged options.
>Retard Math
oh wow so your telling me that i get to spend my high level spell slot to have a 35% chance to do half damage to a moderate threat!
>Fighter eating attacks
Which he can do like a fucking champ because he has HP and AC worth a damn while also pumping out consistent big damage.
>Meme Spells
Wall spells are the ultimate filter for shit gms who cant design combats properly, blast spells are rarely an optimal thing to cast unless the gm is being incredibly nice and the rest are just you agreeing with me. Spellcasters are only useful for buffing and debuffing.
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>>87509257
A limited resource should be more powerful than an unlimited resource. How hard is it for you retards to understand this simple concept.
>>
The best thing casters can do can easily be stolen by martials with no drawbacks (buffs). This is not the case for the other way around and kind proves the point that casters got shafted.
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>>87509342
Because you have a fucking million other things you can do with those slots. The fact that it's even CLOSE to what martials can do is good. Martials can only do damage (sometimes with a twist), trip, or grab. Wizards have a fucking third of the Core Rulebook to pick between. You should be grateful you get even close to a Double Slice fighter considering how many fucking options you have besides damage
>B-but they all suck
They don't.
>>
>Bros, my heckin' wizard didn't blow the fighter out of the water specifically with single target damage! This is so reddit....
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>>87509446
>my wizard outdamaged the party fighter by blowing out all of its daily resources, this is so unfair, nerf wizards more please
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>>87509481
Except, you didn't burn "all your daily resources". You burned your highest ones. You still have like 4 more from each level.
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>>87509486
Sure, i have fucking cantrips to spam this is compeletely fair
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>>87509430
If your just going to lie and say martials can only do damage then theres no continuing this argument because your clearly not making it in good faith. The fact your making arguments like "you should be grateful" is pure 3.5 era martial faggotry who clearly doesnt want a healthy game for all forms of play and just wants to win your faggy little martial vs caster tabletop culture war.
>>87509446
Hilarious because you acting like the redditors who make these same shit arguments.
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>>87509493
Not him, but as a 2e GM for 3 years, I genuinely don't think Casters are less impactful than martials. Even ignoring buffs, since you can get Heroism wands at mid level, they always seem to have decent options, and it usually feels pretty impactful.
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>>87509535
Are you playing as written or making houserule allowances to casters?
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>>87509549
I play as written, besides allowing some uncommon spells and being a bit more generous with recall knowledge.
I play smart creatures relatively intelligently, and I play dumb/mindless creatures very not-intelligently. That's how the core rulebook says to play them
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>>87509535
My argument is still that spellcasters are fine as long as you stay in the box paizo has given you which is shit for build diversity as it makes spellcasters all the exact same. They are all varying forms of toolbox casters who perform it better or worse dependant on its features. Its not coincidence that the best casters in the game are both focused on buffing and support.
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>>87509615
I don't agree with you here. The druid in my most recent campaign always seems to pull a different spell out of his ass every session or so and it's always pretty good. Aqueous Orb, Mud Pit, walls (even wall of fire was suprisingly great damage tied with some shoves). Debuffs are a big deal for sure (Synesthesia is basically an instant win) level 3 fear is big, slow is insane, etc, but buffs, past the very early game really aren't. Just pool your resources and buy everyone a few wands of heroism if you don't have a bard. Creative use of Command and spells like it can turn a whole battle.
I guess they are pretty "toolboxey" but the tools are pretty good. There are a lot of not good spells, but there's a surprising number of good ones too.
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>>87509661
Yes, your spellcaster picked the few meta spells in the game. The only spells every spellcaster chooses because every other playstyle is subpar. You and every anons argument has boiled down to spellcasters are fine aslong as you pick the meta spells.
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>>87509806
And your argument is they suck if you pick spells that suck? Really?
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>>87509845
Argument was that spellcasters lack feats and equipment to make those shit spells useful with investment.
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>>87509845
>spells that suck
Why are these in the game?
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>>87509870
When was this ever said? I don't disagree about equipment, but I don't see anyone here talking about that.
I will agree that runes to increase spell attack (not DC, unless other classes can improve their Class DC too) would be nice, and maybe some skill feats that have to do with actual casting would be nice. Maybe some better metamagic options too.
Its always so much easier to make loot for martials than it is for casters as a GM
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>>87509907
Both editions have plenty of garbage spells.
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>>87509924
Loot for casters always tends to be scrolls, which sucks, because in my experience players don't use scrolls because the age old "what if I need it later" problem. Or they literally forget they have them.
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>>87509535
my biggest complaint is mostly that casters feel "off" to play because most results are failures
they have effect on failure, but generally speaking, playing a caster is planning for failure

it's why buffs are the best, because they can't fail, and why the few spells that are actually used, are the ones that have the best effect on a failure

might just be a "me" thing, but I kind of hate being forced into a losing mentality
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>>87509924
I mean, why shouldn't caster DC be higher on things they specialize in?
If the niche for caster is not damage but rather effect, then in the same way martials can boost their damage, casters should be able to boost their DC's no?
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>>87509939
Can't fail a wall spell either. Or Mud Pit, etc. Battlefield Control spells in general are great because they cannot fail. Hell, Pillars of Sand is super strong against large creatures, and comes earlier than walls.
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>>87509845
>>87509907
>>87509927
I'm going to prepare Spirit Share in every slot and there's nothing you can do to stop me
>>
Boosting the attractiveness of less or never used spells by means of boosting their DC's is an entirely valid way to balance spells

Prove me wrong
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>>87509956
which just proves my point, the scant few spells worth using are those that either have no fail-state or else have the best possible fail state
you can't build a character with limited resources around a 35% chance of your expended resource being useful
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>>87509845
Surprise, Surprise anon, people dont want to just spam fear, slow and wall spells every time they play a spellcaster. Some wish to be conjurers or necromancers that rely on bringing out minions to fight for them or some just want to be blaster casters that deal big damage to single and multiple opponents, some wish to be form changers that can transform into creatures and fight in melee. Unfortunately these styles of play suck ass and paizo refuses to print any items or feat lines that improve the playstyle. Necromancer got a whole book and it still sucks ass to summon undead to fight for you.
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>>87510015
even the kineticist, the dedicated blaster class of 1e, is entering 2e entirely gimped and not only no longer a true blaster, but they can't even deal any damage that's not bludgeoning or fire anymore (and focusing entirely on dealing fire always was a sucker's bet, only reason fire worked in 1e was that the element intentionally got a bunch of ways of bypassing resistance)
>>
>>87510015
When joe schmuck retard like me can fix summoning by simply allowing summons to use your spell attacks instead of their own strike numbers you know you fucked up you spell design.
>>
>>87510072
intentionally so likely
it wouldn't be the first time Paizo nerfed something so badly it became unusable

I just want to use wildshape and not have it be a waste
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>>87510015
>Surprise, Surprise anon, people dont want to just spam fear, slow and wall spels every time they play a spellcaster.
I don't know about that anon. None of my players ever really complain about their options as a caster, besides grumbling about no spell attack runes.
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>>87510072
That's not a fix, that's adding another spell to the pile of spells you are required to have or you suck ass. With that you summon a monster and cast other spells, and then your 4chan frequenting friend will scream until he is blue in the face that you are suboptimal because you don't have a summon out at all times.
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>>87510155
The only player I have for my 2e game that grumbles about caster options is not playing a caster, has not played a caster, and says he will never play a caster in the system because of the aforementioned grumbles.

I tell him if he wants to play a caster which feels powerful I can run PF1e, he says he doesn't want to learn those ancient accursed runes.
>>
given all the caster in 2e talk going on

Anyone have good advise on what houserules can make martials in 1e feel better?
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>>87510184
How so? At highest level your still summoning a creature -4 behind the party but the difference is it now has an attack modifier only -2 behind the martials. Screeching "oh no its going to be just as good as other strong spells" is such an odd take when i want them to be strong spells.

Also lol at you trying to gain some moral superiority because someone goes on 4chan to bitch when your doing the exact same thing dumbass.
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>>87510284
You are putting a bandaid on the leaking pipe and calling it a fix. It might fix that little rusty hole you blocked, but the basement is still flooded.
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>>87510312
You talk like its the only thing ive hombrewed. ive done fixes for other parts of the game i think are retarded too which includes things for martials but im not just going to list everything here.
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>>87502772
Sounds good, thanks anon
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>>87510155
Have your players player caster more than once?
Say that again when your player have tried out every fucking caster class only to realize that they are play the fucking same.
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[2e]
Since there was some discussion on caster damage, I decided to do a little math to calculate how "good" Spell attack runes would be at different levels. Assumed Moderate DC/AC for an on-level enemy, and no flat-footing since that's pretty inconsistent for spell attacks.
I picked Hydraulic Push and Sudden Bolt since both have the same range, and Hydraulic Push is the best Spell Attack Damage that isn't melee or a focus spell
What do you guys think? Too strong? I could throw in a double slice fighter's damage for comparison for fun if you're interested
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>>87510867
I would say compare it to a run of the mill martial just attacking twice with full map first. This does clearly show that spell attack runes should be a thing however.
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>>87510867
Heres double slice fighter for comparison. Longsword/Shortsword, takes Agile Grace at 10, always has energy runes when available (Level 11 has 2, level 16 has 3)
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>>87510944
The issue with that is, all martials have some sorta damage bonus. And most of them are a little more awkward to calculate. I suppose I could have done a d12 fighter with... No feats, but that's not realistic (power attack line and Exacting strike both add damage). Ranger has hunt prey stuff which is hard to calculate, over sustained DPS. Barbarian is not so hard to calc I guess, but your range damage varies between instinct and all that. Monk has so many different stances, magus has spellstrike, etc. Champions has extra runes and Smite, etc. So I chose the basic bitch double slicer. If you really want I could do a d12 no-feat martial? Like a Non-Blade Ally champion? Or would you prefer some other damage dice
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>>87511120
The blaster mage has to spend a limited resource to deal less damage than a fighter who can double slice until they or the enemy runs out of hit points.

Now, for hyrdaulic push in particular that's not horrible, since that spell also features a knockback which can potentially waste an enemy's action, but still.
>>
For someone who's insane and wants the real paper to smell and read, know any good stores for buying the hardcovers?
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>>87511217
Spell attack rolls are actually pretty rare. Hydraulic Push (I think) has the best damage for a ranged spell. Only things that beat it are Shocking Grasp (melee, and gets out-scaled eventually) and Disintegrate, which is attack roll AND save so it's damage is probably shit on average.
Honestly I'm on the fence with this. Double Slice fighter is a lot less versatile, and needs to be in melee, and is pretty close to the system's damage peak. Plus, being able to do sorta close to minmax fighter damage 4 times or day with a nice little upside is nice. However... They do have AoO, they do have good bulk, they can do it forever, etc.
I'm not sure if I believe a max level spell should out-damage a double slice fighter, since they can damage, demoralize, and that's pretty much it. But, should it be an almost 40 point gap at level 16, even with cope homebrew runes? Maybe not, even accounting for the push
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>>87511120
How hard would it be to calculate the average damage against multiple enemies?
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>>87511261
I mean, you'd need to be more specific. Are you asking about like, fireball, which affects multiple creatures? Are they all the same creature? It's eas, just multiply the damage. Are they different creatures? Kind of a pain, you'd have to redo the calc for each monster, which is a little tedious. I don't have an auto calculator for saves like I do strikes. I'll probably make one soon though
>>
>>87498597
>>87498550
All modern fantasy races are just "Humans but with X". Players don't want to larp a race, they want to chase stats or prepare for their IRL gender swap. There's little reason to get caught up in tabletop system lore.
>>
For anybody who DMs pathfinder(virtual preferred), do you make your own maps? If so, what’s your process / what program do you use?
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>>87511259
Depends on the spell, but I think single target spells where the main component is damage should definitely out-damage a martial.

Disintegrate averages 66 damage, but that requires you to hit with a spell attack AND the enemy needs to fail a fortitude save, all to do 2.4 damage less than a fighter hitting a flat footed enemy with 3 attacks. Oh, and you spent one of your highest level spell slots for it, of which you have probably 3 a day.
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>>87511574
Always have made my own maps. Back in highschool when I played in person I drew maps out on a wet-erase grid mat, nowadays online I make maps using dungeondraft.
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>>87511279
https://bahalbach.github.io/PF2Calculator/ is a good tool for calculating many of these things (saves and strikes) across levels.
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>>87511574
>do you make your own maps
Occasionally. Usually quick search for map that is close enough works just fine, but I have been making some maps for occasions where either I can't find good enough maps, or need something specific.

Inkarnate works pretty well for it.
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>>87511641
That's funny, I just calculated the average damage for Disintegrate at level 11 (so you're casting it heightened +1). Assuming that copium +2 potency rune to attacks it's about 45 damage. I'm not 100% sure if I'm right about this but I THINK true strike boosts that to around 64? But it's less straightforward than normal so maybe I'm wrong there? I added a +17% to the crit chance which I think is roughly accurate.
Its better than Hydraulic Push but it's pretty unreliable. Insane damage if it lands, and on average it is good. But the odds aren't with you.
Still, about in-line with that fighter doing all 3 attacks
The actual math is:
.5×(.4×77+.5×38+.05×154)+.15×(.5×77+.45×154+.05×38)= 45.205
Again, this assumes on-level with average AC and saves at level 11.
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>>87511660
I have my own I made in excel, it works for my purposes. But I do need to add a save feature.
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>>87511739
double-success spells always were a pain to use even in 1e
like, in theory phantasmal killer could outright kill something
in practice that almost never happened
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>>87511770
>in practice that almost never happened
*except when the enemy used it against the PC
I have lost like 3 characters to fucking phantasmal killer
>>
How was the whole Pathfinder Society Organized Play stuff, for those that experienced it? Wondering if those campaigns etc were put down anywhere, or if it's not worth the time. Also, did you get cool rewards out of it, like pins or dice or whatever? Or was it mostly just for the lore and chance to play with people?
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>>87511795
Same, lost two party members to the spell at different points, and I was 1 away from dying to it myself once and it wasn't even during a proper combat encounter. Just a stupid ass haunt
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>>87511795
>>87512302
sometimes I wonder what it would have been like if PF hadn't converted all the 3.5 save-or-die spells into damage instead

Finger of Death was fun, but I killed a lot of PC's with it
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>>87503406
>Instead of uplifting everybody, the tall grass gets cut, and if you complain about not being able to do anything you get sent to the gulags
Comradebros
>>
Standing in a corner casting Slow and Inspire Courage/Dirge of Doom every round for an entire year is not fun. Casters in 2e are fucking awful to play and they should have abandoned vancian casting and spell slots entirely and just done 4e Encounter powers for everything.
I would literally rather just go play 4e again than deal with being a fucking Wall of Stone slave for the party, and playing with a Debilitating Shot archer fighter makes you want to fucking kill yourself.
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>>87513008
Sounds like you hate a debuffing role more than anything else. So don't play that.
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>>87513031
being a buff bitch is your only option as a caster in 2e, you need to play a better game (read: literally any other TTRPG besides Pathfinder 2e) if you don't want to be forced spending 3 actions on reach spell+slow or reach spell+electric arc for 20 levels.

The worst part is that the best buffs in the game are poachable with a dedication. I played a Fighter with a Bard dedication to steal inspire courage because it's an easy third action to pair with sudden charge or double slice, holy fuck did the party Witch look even more goddamn useless after that
>>
2e, would it break the game if PCs could just spend money in towns to get week long buffs without an issue?
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>>87513161
This would be equivalent to buying wands of heroism/longstrider etc, in a way, so unless you're being very dumb about it, unlikely
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>>87513008
Interesting that the conversation has made this turn because I was about to ask about this exact thing.
I'm playing a level 3 bard in 2e, and 95% of my combat rounds have just become 1 action inspire courage and then 2 actions telekinetic projectile. I dabbled with daze for a bit but chasing critical fails on saves seems like a fools game. Does anyone have any ideas on more interesting things I could be doing with my other two actions?
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What does /pgg/ think of Poppets? I'm going to make one as a Thaumaturge.
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>>87513207
Cast Fear or Demoralize, you've got Charisma, use it.
Cast other buffs like Magic Weapon, Blur, or Mirror Image.
Stand in a conspicuous spot to tank some attacks; your AC and HP is not that much worse than anybody else, so sharing damage across the party is important.

You're Occult so its not like you get a lot of big dick damage spells.
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Starfinder
Does anyone have any suggestions, ideas, or maybe 3rd party stuff for fixing the economy?

I'm currently in process of trying to adapt 1e Automatic Bonus Progression into Starfinder but it is slow progress that has ended up with remaking the whole goddamn thing. Current iteration is doing sort of point buy system where you get points with levels that you can use to increase abilities of your armor and weapons, combined with automatic dice increase for weapons at certain levels, but it is becoming kinda overtly complicated.
>>
>>87513269
I've been getting good use out of magic weapon actually. The group champion is a big fan of it. I'm more thinking about rounds in between spell slot usage. Is demoralise worth it? The 10 minute immunity makes it seem kinda lame
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>>87513313
Giving a -1 to an enemy is the same as giving everyone in your party a +1, which is about 10% increased damage dealt and 10% decreased damage taken. The immunity is per target, so you usually only get one shot per target per encounter, but its only one action.
>>
People were right, just jumping in is pretty fun. After the Beginner Box, I just find the Core and GM books, and look into what Advanced classes etc I want to see what books I should get? So far, I've just been soloing or DMing for my brother.
>>
>>87513548
I've only ever bought the books when they come outbto go through them with friends in a call. If I was in your position I'd just use the archives of nethys.
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>>87511574
Yes I use QGIS but that's because I make maps as a career. I don't recommend learning it if you just want game maps
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>>87513256
I like them in 1e
>play Wyrwood, get storage construct modification, use poppet to move large crossbow bolts from extradimensional space to oversized quiver
>hollow out poppet, fill with gunpowder and other goodies, ???????, profit
>use flying poppet to stick grappling hooks onto high ledges
>have poppets deploy and drag your unconscious body towards healer pc if you fall in combat
>have 50 poppets carry you around the world while you sit in a throne
>poppet as a stand in for PCs dead kid, can be talked at like Wilson in Castaway
>having a poppet administer healing potion to dying PC
>make a Toyota-tier assembly line to produce components that a skilled craftsman can later assemble
The possibilities are endless.
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>>87512523
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
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>>87513008
Every single caster in the game needs to acquire Electric Arc as it's the only damage cantrip remotely decent. Telekinetic Projectile is absolute garbage, it requires a spell attack roll and does nothing on a miss
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>>87513867
you'd think, given how much damaging cantrips are used, they'd make sure all of them were viable options
it's kinda like if there only was 1 weapon viable for fighters
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What kind of relationship would Shub-Niggurath and Gozreh have? Of course Shub-Niggurath being outer god it is kinda difficult to estimate, but they do seem to share some interests.
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>>87513998
I expect that if you compare the percentages of useful cantrips and useful weapons, you'd reach similar results. There are what, a dozen useful weapons?
>Flickmace
>Meteor Hammer + Asp Coil
>Guisarme
>Longspear
>Warhammer + Light Hammer
>Pick + Light Pick
>Composite Long and Short Bows
>Shuriken
>Rapier? Elven Curve Blade?
>one or two guns for Gunslinger
out of 246 base weapons, that's about 1 in 20.

Compare cantrips, of which there are 47:
>Detect Magic
>Electric Arc
>Light
>Ray of Frost
>Shield
>Maybe Disrupt Undead?
Actually a better ratio, surprisingly.
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>>87514066
to be fair though, out of those there's only 2 damaging cantrips

that said weapons is a bit surprising, feels like a lot more weapons were viable in 1e
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>>87514066
Is it really "unviable" for a fighter to use a Longsword or whatever? Sire it's slightly worse but it's really, really not THAT big of a difference.
Also Bastard Sword is the meta option for open hand fighter, so throw that on your list (yes Dwarven War Axe is better but it's a feat tax for such a minor boon)
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>>87514066
Hey, Scatter Scree is a great cantrip!
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>>87514079
Eh, in 1e it was fucking Rapier as the optimal choice any time anything dexterity or crit related was mentioned. Fuck I hate that stick.
STR builds had more freedom though Butchering Axe obviously stands out a quite bit.
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>>87514079
>to be fair though, out of those there's only 2 damaging cantrips
Yeah, and I think that's an issue. At my table I buff a lot of cantrips to make them more compelling choices.

>>87514087
Whoops, forgot the Bastard Sword. And sure, its also not unviable for a caster to use Telekinetic Projectile instead of Electric Arc; its equivalent in power to Electric Arc in most single-target scenarios, and Chill Touch and Scatter Scree have their use cases as well. The 1d4, 30 foot cantrips are a tougher sell, but you could argue that maybe the persistent damage makes it somewhat worth using Produce Flame. But if you're gonna optimize then the list shrinks pretty fast in both scenarios.
>>
>>87513614
Isn't that sort of just jumping straight into all the options? Wondering if by that point, if I'd be overwhelmed or miss out on some of the more optimal things to do.
I guess there's always the option of sharing the character sheet here afterwards for tips, but that might seem annoying to people.
>>
>>87513207
Use lingering composition to extend inspire, then you have an action freed up to fish for knowledge checks etc.
Use a staff or scrolls.
Use item activations.
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>>87514066
Shieldkeks... D12Weaponkeks... We are unviable :(
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>>87514223
A d12 weapon is usually not worth giving up Reach, if you're committed to a two-handed weapon.
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>>87514135
Scimitar for dervish dance
Kukri for dual-wielding
Waveblade for being a monk weapon
Starknife had plenty of uses
Tri-bladed Katar for x4 shenanigans
Wakazashi for everyone who got access to them somehow
The elf weapons were pretty useful too, especially branched spear for being a reach dex weapon
Estoc could be worth it if you could get proficiency easily
Dueling Sword if you got played one of the archetypes made for it
(Whips in theory, but that was beyond gimmicky to try)
And basically anything could be a finesse weapon when you added an effortless lace to it
>>
>>87514066
Most weapons are perfectly viable for most martials if you arent a complete autist. Every offensive cantrip is heads and shoulders significantly worse than electric arc and scatter scree.
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>>87514066
Temple Sword (good for monks (sorta)) and Sword+Board (trip is nice)
Fangwire (Agile Grapples)
Bo Staff (monks)
Fire Poi (do NOT ask how you get proficiency)
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>>87514066
Non-composite bows aren't so bad. If you don't have 14 STR, it's objectively better
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>>87514253
Well, obviously there is other options. But just compare the effort required to fucking rapier. Most of time you even get proficiency for free from the class.
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>>87514330
depends really
I'd say the scimitar was used about as often as the rapier by virtue of dervish dance being by far the superior dex to damage feat
UC rogues also tended to use Kukri more than rapiers

really the only classes that were primarily rapier based were swashbuckler and investigator, everything else didn't stick to rapier
at least from my perspective

Rapier was hardly the universal optimal choice
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>>87514364
>were swashbuckler and investigator
And magus.
Also rogues with kukris is hardly easier considering you need proficiency from somewhere.
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>>87514386
>Magus
any smart Magus used a scimitar because dervish dance actually works with spell combat
if you have any Magus still using a rapier, please tell them to take up dancing lessons
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>>87514416
That depends how your DM interpets spell combat. All of my tables so far have just let it work with fencing grace.
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>>87514449
RAW it doesn't since spell combat is two weapon fighting
and even then, fencing grace has weapon focus requirement while dervish dance does not, and magus' are already strapped for feats as is

scimitar (or cutlass) is the optimal choice for a magus, there's no real way around it
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>>87514508
>RAW it doesn't since spell combat is two weapon fighting
*functions much like two-weapon fighting
And "but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast" does not actually turn spell into a weapon.
So "while fighting with two weapons" does not necessary apply.
"anytime another hand is otherwise occupied" also does not apply because the hand is still free.
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>>87514568
sure but you still haven't addressed the fact that using a rapier means you're a whole feat behind and are still using a 1d6 18/20 weapon

really Rapier absolutely isn't the best option for a dex weapon, and definitely not overwhelmingly so
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>>87514600
A Feat that would still probably want. And not like Magus has too many skillpoints to waste into dancing either.
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>>87514617
I absolutely in every possible way as a magus trade 2 skill points and +1 atk for a feat
Magus can spare 2 skill points as an INT based class

seriously you're already down 2 feats as a magus on finesse and dex to damage, no need to add a third ontop of it
>>
>>87514675
Okay, sure. Dancing is still even gayer than rapiers tho.
>>
>>87514700
this wasn't about it being gay or not, this was about rapiers not being the primary choice for a dex weapon in 1e
there's tons of options, especially with effortless lace existing
>>
>>87514758
And Rapier is still easiest choice for the most dex classes without extra investment
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>>87514850
the only people for who rapier is the best choice are dex classes that don't do dual wielding and don't want dex to damage who also care about critting despite not having dex to damage

that's not a lot of 'em
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>>87514878
You can just put effotless lace into rapier tho
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>>87514890
effortless lace doesn't give you dex to damage
it makes a one handed weapon into a finesse weapon
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>>87514923
Agile makes it dex to damage weapon. Wasting feats is bad
>>
>>87514700
Being a spellcaster is the height of faggotry, dancing and swords or otherwise.
>>
My group is talking about swapping over to p2e from 5e and I was wondering if there was a class that was similar to 5e's Warlock Hexblade by either flavor or play style? I just want to be a melee class with a few magic attacks. I'm guessing that Champion will be my best bet since it's just Paladin right? But are there other "gish" options?
>>
Currently watching the Treasure Vault reveals
its ok, a bit reddit here and there but the new armors and shields are neat, waiting for the streams to get to the reworked crafting mechanics, its where my hopes lie
>>
>>87515380
A Champion is largely not a spellcaster in 2e, they're just a tanky melee fighter with a dash of divine flair. They're not a burst class like 5e's Paladin.

You want a Magus, which is both a mixed caster-melee and more bursty like a Paladin.
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>>87515451
update
the weapon runes SUCK besides one that lets you apply poison as a free action after activation
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>>87515380
Melee class with a few magic attacks is exactly what the Magus class is. You have about ~6 spellslots normally, and you have a special action that lets you attack with a melee weapon and cast a spell through it at the same time.
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>>87515793
What're some of the weapon runes that suck?
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>>87515451
Was it a stream or something? Where can I watch it?
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>>87506081
>thinks someone is talking about 1e because they post a picture of a 1e book
>they aren't, no one cares about 1e, people have forgotten it even had books
lmao 1e faggot absolutely destroyed
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>>87516027
>>no one cares about 1e, people have forgotten it even had books
Now you're just full of shit
>>
I'll make a new thread once we hit page 10 if you people don't mine
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>>87515897
pretty much all of them are either bad or mediocre
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>>87516271
Oof, runes with a static save are always iffy
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>>87516271
all that gold and actions for 0-8 damage lol
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>>87495956
1e, need an answer quick, does Dispel Magic work on Flesh to Stone? none of us in the group think it does, since it's technically not an ongoing effect, but i wouldn't mind a second opinion
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>>87516433
Can't believe Paizo still prints shit like this in the current year, there's like three outdated design elements within these
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>>87516477
meant for
>>87516331

same exact issue with a lot of their specific magic weapon/items btw, but you also have the occasional one that uses class DC, its crazy, feels like 3/4th of their writers just forgot that these exist
>>
UUUUH GM
WHAT PHASE OF THE MOON ARE WE IN?
UUUUH GM HOW DOES THAT WORK IF THE PLANET HAS TWO MOONS DO I GET BOTH?
UUUUH GM I WANNA RECALL KNOWLEDGE TO CHECK THE MOON'S PHASE WHATS THE DC
UUUH GUYS CAN WE DOWNTIME FOR LIKE A WEEK I NEED GHOST TOUCH FOR THIS
>>
>>87516549
Honestly its kinda cute. I like it. Its not some goofy reddit shit like the inspector gadget steampunk stuff also in this book
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>>87515451
The Armor Runes and shields are good, though yeah some of the shields are a little reddit.
The weapon rune that applies stored poisons is good though. Definitely can see some builds taking that.
Paizo needs to stop doing items with static DCs. Please for the love of God just let them be class DC. So many items start okay then get shit 2 levels later, and all the way until the next gold sink upgrade comes out, which is then outdated 2 levels later.
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>>87516778
>>87516745
What does it mean, to go a bit reddit? Like, random? Cheeky, nonsensical? I don't get it
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>>87516549
>equal to the number of damage dice
Damn, and they JUST fixed the horse support action, too. Rogues and swashbucklers at RAWtist tables might have some fun with this.
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>>87516778
I think what's funny is one of the devs explained on the forums that then the meta would just revolve around buying a bunch of low-level items because they scale into endgame, as if that's not already the meta with whatever items didn't get hit by the static DC hammer.
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>>87501303
>magic in Pathfinder is like Nen in HxH;
Fucking Damnit Eyepatch Wolf!
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>>87516549
Gimme.

There's like 1 other person on /tg/ that knows why I would use an aboleth pic in response to that, but whatever.
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>>87516549
>all this text
>wasted on a 1d4 weapon
>that's conditionally a 1d6 weapon
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>>87511870
I played a few sessions on one of the web based RPG finder sites I forget which one
it was fun but randos mostly suck at least some of the fun out of the situation.
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>>87517157
You could just do (Class DC to a maximum of X) so that you DO have to upgrade, but it stays relevant during its tier
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>>87517819
They forgot to say weapon damage dice instead of damage dice, so the damage bonus is increased by stuff like sneak attack and energy property runes.
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>>87517157
Which is completely retarded because most of the effects are replaced by far stronger ones at higher levels. Its typical paizo trying to fight the ghost of a problem that never existed. I just let my players use class dc if higher and the magic item economy of my game hasnt broken down.
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>>87516271
700 gp for a level 1 30 foot burning hands once per hour with a static save. Do the people who make these items not play the game? Any martial that would use this rune would be better off just striking twice.
>>
>>87511795
>>87512302
I had a rather close shave with that myself. Luckily this was on a rogue character and I had just taken Twist Away (can't recommend this feat enough for rogues and the like, it lets you substitute Reflex for Fort on a save in exchange for being staggered for a round), so I got to make the check at a +12 instead of a +2.
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>>87519479
Fucking 4e had better more powerful items than these. How did it come to this?
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>>87519964
Paizo has a "oh no we cant possibly make anything close to overpowered so lets err on the side of too weak than too strong" while the 4e designers seemed to be actually having fun with its design as the years went on.
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>>87515793
Merciful is good for those campaigns where you don't want to murder things right off the bat but still want to use good weapons (Agents of Edgewatch is a good example of that, wish I had that one on deck back then). Flurrying is very cool for a weapon monk, giving him a ranged option. Coating you've already mentioned, rest are whatever
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>>87511259
I think the damage spells are fine as a baseline but the problem being is paizo refuses to print ways for a spellcaster to specialize into these types of spells and make them stronger like you could in past editions. The only real option is an elemental dangerous sorcerer and maybe a few psychic combinations which has to sacrifice alot of spells. Thats 2 blaster options out of the 8 spellcaster classes. Why doesnt the evocation wizard have a feat line that makes evocation stronger? or the druid with feats to make wildshaping stronger? (No i do not think spending feats so your class feature can scale with the game is making it stronger). Witches gaining bonuses to casting spells with the curse trait could be a very interesting design niche but paizo just wants to make every caster a toolbox who's only difference is the spell list they have access to.



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