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Abyssal edition.

862 KB JPG
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/b54o6teut3fx6/Exalted_3e

>Errata for Third Edition
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n3ooTmopm3CBxW5jwPp1761xsaIccea-5XIhVM_PQEc/edit

>Other Ex3 Resources
https://pastebin.com/fG1mLMdu

>Resources for Older Editions
https://pastebin.com/BXSGuFdQ
>Essence
https://pastebin.com/u3dtDFy2

>NPCs
Hundred Devils Night Parade https://pastebin.com/iA1DYbpB
Adversaries of the Righteous https://pastebin.com/KR7zTrpe
Eclipse Charms https://controlc.com/26c244cb

>Current Quixalted Extended QE Version (Fanmade Supplement)
https://files.catbox.moe/rjgmo5.pdf

>Optional Quixalted Exalts
https://www.mediafire.com/file/jg86yrewnhx2ov3/QE_Reject3eExaltHomebrew.pdf/file

>4thchan Edition
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XqjkwQIR38ov7uZVSZGpcjI0QCPIiFaQkVosZVlhGH8/(4.2Core)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ChMTi_E4OfseIPvC0dJo99IrGkgRuBm0QgfxF1RZUAk/edit?usp=sharing(4.2Spirits)

>Exalted Demake (old, missing Solars and Lunars update):
https://pastebin.com/xfkHLh2M

Previous thread: >>87456835

TQ: How do you like your Abyssals?
>>
>TQ: How do you like your Abyssals?

Even if villanous, not the 'destroy the world' veriety. And if subservient, then to interesting characters with more depth to them then millenia long butthurt.
>>
>>87488537
>3e lore only makes sense if you read/use lore from the previous editions.
What is lacking from 3e lore that would make it unusable, going off what is available in the books/manuscripts currently available?
>>
>>87488657
Oops, meant to reply to (>>87488485) from the last thread.
>>
I think all 3e lore, sans Exigents is fine. Even when bad, its structured to get out of your face.
>>
Exalted Demake WIP
Volume 1
Chapter 1 - Core Rules v7 - https://a.pomf.cat/lasmkr.pdf
Chapter 2 - Traits and Permutations v6 - https://a.pomf.cat/eonlzc.pdf
Chapter 3 - Solars v5 - https://a.pomf.cat/mjubsf.pdf
Chapter 4 - Dragon-Blooded v9 - https://a.pomf.cat/navcil.pdf
Chapter 5 - Lunars v8 - https://a.pomf.cat/tamfww.pdf
Chapter 6 - Sidereals v5 - https://a.pomf.cat/jkwfnb.pdf
Chapter 7 - Martial Arts and Sorcery v4 - https://a.pomf.cat/gifnyd.pdf
Chapter 8 - Antagonists v7 - https://a.pomf.cat/cojyjd.pdf
Chapter 9 - Panoply v5 - https://a.pomf.cat/ybdwpk.pdf
Appendix - Warstriders v1 - https://a.pomf.cat/gpifmi.pdf
Volume 2
Chapter 2 - Abyssals v3 - https://a.pomf.cat/gmacqy.pdf
Chapter 3 - Liminals v1 - https://a.pomf.cat/towcff.pdf
Chapter 4 - Infernals v1 - https://a.pomf.cat/vmhajr.pdf
Chapter 7 - Martial Arts and Sorcery II v1 - https://a.pomf.cat/tirjeb.pdf
Volume n
Appendix 2 - Alchemicals v1 - https://a.pomf.cat/uyxuro.pdf
Appendix 6 - Heart-Eaters v2 - https://a.pomf.cat/stevoq.pdf
Exalted vs World of Darkness - Black Vault WIP
Chapter 1 - The Getimian Exalted v3 - https://a.pomf.cat/gxkutv.pdf
Chapter 2 - The Nightmares of Oramus v1 - https://a.pomf.cat/sooeqs.pdf
Chapter 3 - The Revelers of Isidoros v1 - https://a.pomf.cat/ewepjv.pdf
Chapter 4 - The Heart-Eaters v2 - https://a.pomf.cat/dpxike.pdf
Chapter 5 - The Black Vault (July 2022) v? - https://a.pomf.cat/zarvgc.pdf
Chapter 6 - Latter-Day Masterworks v? - https://a.pomf.cat/qhzidg.pdf

>>87488739
Why Exigents?
>>
>>87488537
Not focused on blowing up the world into nothingness. They are the Chosen of Death and therefore the Underworld, which means they act very much like Solars but for the dead. Of course they've got all the trappings of death because that's how they're aligned. An Abyssal is gonna be closer to Dracula than King Arthur in manner and appearance but that's how the dead like it. The way I set up the lore is that the Deathlords realized that the Underworld would be fucked because there are no Exalted of the Underworld, and Exalts make the world go around. So when they stole some of the Solar shards they figured out how to make their Essence naturally aligned with the Underworld, they consider that their home, the rest takes care of itself. Even if all the Abyssals tell the Deathlords to fuck off they're not gonna go live in Creation. It's too bright, it's uncomfortable, the world moves too quick, it's simply not where they belong. The Abyssal Exaltation searches for those obsessed with death and the past. So they set up in Shadowlands and the Underworld and mostly work with the Dead. Sure you might get weirdos that have a change of heart but you'll have an equal amount of Solars that live in the Underworld cause it's neat, but the trends are there and so the Underworld has a force of Exalted that will help continue its existence.
>>
>>87488824
>Why Exigents?

Because it only exists as a thing for 'cannonical' homebrew. Its useless by itself, and fucks with the world building in a way much more significant then just power level crap or such.
>>
>>87488657
I mean, tonnes. It's not "unusable" but it's missing great swathes of content, because they had to make room for five times as many charms, and has had a fraction of the number of books.

A few threads back, there was a discussion around the Usurpation, where one anon posted the only paragraph in 3E that referenced the Sidereal's plans. There was no Great Prophecy, no Vision of Gold/Bronze - they weren't explicitly rules out, just not mentioned. Is that supposed to imply they no longer happened, or that they happened but were cut for space?

Now, that's not going to make your game unplayable, but it does, for instance, make a big difference to how you might play Kejop Chejak, who is likely to be a major player, especially in a Sidereal game.
>>
>>87488537
Whether tragic anti-heroes or nihilistic villains, Abyssals are best written as actual people with goals and beliefs rather than victims of WoD-style elderwank or a checklist of Twitter-catering buzzwords. Sadly, that's exactly the caliber of writing we'll get from the dullest franchise in the history of tabletop game franchises.

Seriously, each episode following the tokenized Exalts and their mortal cocksleeves from Creation as they fight assorted foes has been indistinguishable from the others. Aside from the generic fantasy art and kitschy political wanking, the games’ only consistency has been their lack of excitement and ineffective use of dice tricks, all to make magic unmagical, to make action seem inert.

Perhaps the die was cast when White Wolf sold all their IPs to Paradox; they made sure their games would never be mistaken for works of art that meant anything to anybody, just increasingly unprofitable Kickstarter scams. The Exalted gameline might be anti-Tolkien (or not), but it’s certainly the anti-LOTR in its refusal of wonder, beauty and excitement. No one wants to face that fact. Now, thankfully, they no longer have to.

>a-at least the crunch is better though
"No!"

The writing is dreadful; the book was terrible. As I read, I noticed that every time a supernatural force came up, the author wrote instead it was "numinous".

I began marking on the back of an envelope every time that phrase was repeated. I stopped only after I had marked the envelope several dozen times. I was incredulous. Vance and Minton's minds are so governed by social media that they have no other style of writing. Later I read a lavish, loving review of Exalted by the same RPGnet. They wrote something to the effect of, "If these people are playing Exalted at 16 or 17, then when they get older they will go on to get HRT and love Communism." And they were quite right. They were not being ironic. When you play "Exalted" you are, in fact, trained to read Marx.
>>
>>87489476
I mean, is there more that is needed for the character to work? "Chejop Kejak saw the Solars acting in ways that were very dangerous, formed a vast conspiracy with others that thought the same, and permanently removed the Solars after a decade of warfare in the hopes that this would make Creation safer for everyone else." There we go, we got the gist of his character. The lack of the Visions of Gold and Bronze is intentional, so what's the problem here? Do you want them to write a big sidebar saying "WE REMOVED THE VISIONS BECAUSE WE DIDN'T FIND THEM INTERESTING" or something?
>>
>>87489702

Yes? Deciding that you know best and genociding the people who keep civilization going implies arrogance, while being compelled to action because the world is prophesied to end if you don't implies duty and obligation.

Did Kejak want to save the world, or did he just want to usurp power? Were the Solars actually that bad, or did Kejak just take isolated incidents to fabricate a justification?
>>
>Countless mortal subspecies and not a single one of them is goblins
Explain yourselves, Solars.
>>
>>87490090
Minikin
>>
>>87490006
There's also the fact he wanted to rule himself.
>>
How do I make a Chosen of Battles that uses all of his caste abilities? Archery and Brawl and Melee seems a bit too much.
>>
How strong are Abyssal Exalted? Literally just as strong as Solars — except that their patron god is present and paying attention, thereby granting Abyssals an advantage?
>>
>>87490006
The very fact that he was able to overthrow the Solars proves that the Solars deserved to be overthrown. Creation is a kratocracy, if you aren’t powerful enough to hold onto your rule, you won’t get to keep it.
>>
>>87490155
On equal footing with Solars but their patron being active doesn't mean they're stronger, just better connected. Abyssals might start off a bit better, with a home base and some artifacts but Solars will catch up pretty quickly in terms of resources. While both are Anathema, Solars are gonna find it a lot easier to get shit moving in Creation than Abyssals are so that catchup will happen fast.
>>
>>87489477
Can't you just say something original?
>>
>>87490006
>Did Kejak want to save the world, or did he just want to usurp power? Were the Solars actually that bad, or did Kejak just take isolated incidents to fabricate a justification?
Woah, sounds like something that your ST can decide for himself if Chejop is relevant to a campaign.
>>
>>87490006
>Did Kejak want to save the world, or did he just want to usurp power? Were the Solars actually that bad, or did Kejak just take isolated incidents to fabricate a justification?

Let the ST decide. 2es style of writing was often introducing exact motivations and answers that took away a ton of mystique, and made everything very mundane.
Id say 2es strengths was giving volume to small things and giving them more attention. Often times the 'correct' answer to a question was generally shit.

The 2e abyssals book very much went into the boring and shitty motives and actions of all the Deathlords. And then basically clumsily walked all of the lore back in its ST section because all that lore made doing anything impossible and stupid.
>"The Deathlords are one-dimensional monsters!...But if your RP-ing with them as a master, having that would be pretty boring....So I guess flesh them out and give them nuance."

I find 2e is at its best when its fleshing out minor things, in ways that allow more interaction and direction. Ahlat is a pretty cool example. An egotistical douche who derives power from the abuse of his people, but also genuinly cares for them and wants to make them stronger. And is one of the few gods with the eyes on the prize, and aware that strengthening his people might be a requirement to weather the coming storm.

Thats a plot hook. "This is the 100% reason why a character was motivated to do what he did" is just killing the mystery that your imagination will always do a better job with.
>>
>>87490006
There can obviously be deeper motives but it really doesn't matter if there was some grand Vision or not, the world was clearly fucked and they were pushed into action by the fucked up acts of the Solars. The characterization is basically the same as previous editions. Unless you somehow think the book saying the world is bad is untrustworthy in 3e but the book saying the prophecy was totally 100% true, infallible in 2e is trustworthy when in all editions Sidereal prophecy has been shown to be very fallible. How justified Kejack was is up to you and how you run things.
>>
>>87489476
I'm pretty sure the intention is that the Great Prophecy and the Visions aren't a thing in 3e.
Instead, the Sidereals overthrew the Solars because they were seeing the atrocities they were commiting and were capable of realizing that they had to be stopped.
The Visions were dumb and only enabled Solar-wank
>>
>>87490534
Given the capabilities we see in 3e there was no doubt prognostications that tried to read the future, they may have even been given the names the Visions of Bronze and Gold, but it does seem like their absence is meant to demonstrate that these weren't untouchable, correct knowledge handed down from on high as they were commonly considered from 1e and 2e (despite them only dealing in probabilities and not certainties).
>>
>>87490370
Anon... it is from 1e...
>>
File: 1674581645865487.webm (3.74 MB, 960x540)
3.74 MB
3.74 MB WEBM
Why are Getimians Attribute based?
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>>87490862
And it still doesn’t give a definitive answer.
>>
>>87490370
I don't need an RPG book to give me "mystique." I need definitive answers, otherwise I may as well not buy the book because I'll have to make it up myself either way. It's one of the reasons why samsara sucks. How do the Maidens act? However the story requires! Great, thanks, never could have come up with that one on my own. What a valuable contribution to my game that wall of text was.
>>
>>87490155
Going by previous edition, they are, but only in shadowlands and whatnot
>>
>>87491144
Cause the new writers have no balls
>>
>>87490370
I'm gonna have to agree with >>87491299, I LIKED that they had answers, even if they were bad ones, definitive answers are actually something I find very useful to build off of, both to add new details and to tweak from canon for story specific changes
Sure, I understand the reasoning the devs have for leaving things open and vague, but some people are more creative with a mostly blank canvas they can fill out with their own ideas and some are more creative with a box of ideas in the form of legos they can snap and rearrange together in new and interesting ways, I'm very much the latter and I loved 2e for giving me a tone of shit to play with
>>
>>87491299
>I need definitive answers

For who? To argue with your ST with? To 100% define the character AS the ST?

Might as well ask 'How does this end' and then run Return of the Scarlet Empress as the only story to ever be told.
>>
>>87491444
>To 100% define the character AS the ST?
Yes. If the book defines the character, then I can decide to use that or to discard it because there's a better idea for a given campaign. If it doesn't, then I have to make up everything myself and why the fuck did I even buy anything? Because I wanted to donate money to Onyx Path?
>>
>>87491384
Fair enough Il just disagree. I don’t consider having all the answers is lego. It’s the inverse. Its fixed in place.

Especially when so many of the answers are bad and dull.
>>
>>87491491
Ok to avoid it becoming a slap fight, Il agree to disagree. I prefer more of a more open ended aproach for fine details, and you prefer to work off a cohesive package.

There is no right or wrong.
>>
>>87487725
People have preferences for the game they like to play. People also have varying degrees of suspension of disbelief. I doubt that's limited to Exalted. Get used to it. I don't like Lionwank, I also don't have a problem with playing an unironic edgelord happy to end the world for vile overlords dubiously invested in the premise. What I do have is a lack of faith that the writers can execute the proposed premise in a well-written way judging from how they've handled elder Lunars and specific gripes I have with the new take on Yu-Shan. And there are things I LIKE about the new take on Yu-Shan, but also things that make me concerned about their ability to deliver on Deathlords.

>>87488064
I've also never liked their immortality because it stands out as being greater than their masters for no better reason than in-game fiat to keep them from being slain with a spirit-killer charm. In a setting about consequences the Deathlords are given a waiver on a consequence dire enough to change the fate of the world forever because fuck you, the devs want to run their Lich King campaign.

>>87488666
Link me? If I'm wrong I'm wrong although fuck me if I don't understand what's so compelling about 3e unless you're just pulling from the mechanics and using lore from prior editions. Genuinely curious
>>
>>87491509
Nta but I prefer a cohesive package too, open-ended characters are fine and dandy in theory but in my experience people prefer to actually know what the antagonist is about from the get-go, no ambiguity, and just overrule the book and give them different characterisation in the actual game if they want to change anything.
>>
>>87491509
Don't bother. All Exalted discussion ends up becoming a slap fight anyway. With the actual official forums being among the most vicious.
>>
>>87491735
The official forums are shill for now, unless the topic is Lunars.
>>
>>87488537
Liminals should not exists at all.

I will be glad if they are retconned in the next edition.
>>
>>87491499
The legos in my example are both the question and the answers so to speak, mentally I'd compare it to having a box that's a mix of different kits, you can see the themes each kit falls under and if you stick to the instructions you get the canon answer, but you could also mix things up, swap out pieces, find new ways things that weren't intended to go together to fit, etc, and for that sorta thing it works best if you have both settings questions and definite answers
All that said, my main point is, some people find it easier/have more fun to come up with new ideas, others find it easier/more fun to play with and build off of preexisting concepts, a good GM needs a mix of both, but for me personally, setting questions where the answers are "It's a mystery" or "There is no answer" because the writers didn't intend for there to be one are some of the most creatively stifling options, (Conversely, "We're not telling you YET" or "There is one, but we don't want to say it" are both far easier to work with as even if the answer is stupid, the question(s) feels more cohesive)
>>
>>87491444
Not that anon, but I find bad answers are better than something that clearly has no intended answer, settings with too many of the latter tend to just feel like a mess if too many details start piling up due to lack of dev foresight.
Having intended answers, even dumb ones can go a LONG towards making the setting feel more cohesive and thought out, and if it's something the ST doesn't like they can change it in their own game.
>>
>>87492260
I like the idea of them, but yeah, the implementation, like a lot of things in 3e I've found is a bit wanting, I always did like the idea there was something to the underworld before the Neverborn, and they feel like a cool callback to it
Though personally I'm just hoping they'll retcon Infernals back to the 2e version should 4e ever come out, I'd be happy with them being an optional/noncanon splat even
>>
>>87492331
>(Conversely, "We're not telling you YET" or "There is one, but we don't want to say it" are both far easier to work with as even if the answer is stupid, the question(s) feels more cohesive)
Reminds me of a cult/pyramid scheme, where they lure the gullible by making themselves seem erudite by faking having hidden knowledge and feeding pieces meals to the fools.
>>
>>87492629
Humans like answers to things, so the motivation behind it is probably the same, but it's pretty clear when a setting is supposed to have an answer to a question vs when it's not, and the former is easier to work with even if the end result is me going "No, that's stupid, here's a better idea that fits"
>>
>>87491688
I think in Chejop's case it's not a lack of characterization so much as not making him canonically, objectively right, which is how a lot of people interpreted the Visions. The Vision of Bronze was more likely, and the Vision of Gold was described as a slim chance, but it's supposed to be a moral quandary not some answer given from on high. Was Chejop correct in his estimation? How risky was it to persuade the Solars really? These are questions that every ST is going to differ on, even if it's slightly, from each other as part of how their views in general.

Some people might view him as a monster who threw away Creation's best chance at utopia, others will view him as a hero who did what he had to do to save everybody, this is the nuance is routinely lauded as the goal in Exalted. It's not supposed to be an objective Good and Evil setting, and the places that fail and fall prey to that (2e Post-Glories UCS) are regularly derided. The presentation of the Visions, especially in 2e, led to them being one of the cases where the fandom had lost the nuance since there was an "objective" measure they could point to, again despite the Visions not actually being objective the fandom had merely made them so. So the writers removed them while keeping the underlying situation, nothing changes in the characterization, but now there's not some "objective" thing people can screech at and yell "CHEJOP WAS RIGHT."
>>
>>87490335
>>87490370

I mean, the ST can do that, but you can say that about absolutely every piece of lore. "Just leave it out and the ST can invent it". You end up with a blank canvas, and a whole bunch of work for the ST.

Even if you don't want to nail anything down so the ST has options, you throw out things as idea seeds, so the ST doesn't need to start from the absolute beginning.
>>
>>87489476
If you were to read 3E Sidereals without being familiar with the previous editions, you definitely wouldn't think "there seems to be something missing here, it doesn't mention if Sidereals performed some kind of a great prophecy before making a decision about the Usurpation". Could you come up with a better example of 3E lore being incomplete without previous editions' lore?
>>
>>87493121
>I mean, the ST can do that, but you can say that about absolutely every piece of lore.
But its not every piece of lore. Just the big questions (that are more like themes) that I find there should not be a answer for outside of the STs whims. Its also not really fair to compare completed settings with incomplete. The setting books 3e sends out feel by and large filled in. Il admit they are duller then 2es, but not just lacking information.
>>
>>87491685
>Link me? If I'm wrong I'm wrong although fuck me if I don't understand what's so compelling about 3e unless you're just pulling from the mechanics and using lore from prior editions. Genuinely curious

http://howsfamily.net/Exalted/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Bear in mind, it was intended as an aide- memoire for players, so it hasn't been polished for an outside audience or anything.

Also, we absolutely used prior editions lore with 3e mechanics.
>>
Reading a comparative example (The Realm Vs The Blessed Isle)....2e has more highs and lows. Highs are its tendency for nuance, and its lows can just be spelling stuff out.

In 3e the Scarlet Empress comes off as just kinda a bitch. There is less said about her at all, but we only get a surface understanding of her actions. As a result it doesn't feel as much to 'fill in' as much as just lacking information for this to be important. In 3e the Empress comes off much more directly interested in her power, while 2e shows a much more sympathetic showing. At the same time bits that could be mysterious or have more significance, are just spelled out in kinda mundane ways.

Id say thats 2e as a whole. When its good, its really good. When its bad, it kills off fun stuff.
>>
>>87493326
>But its not every piece of lore. Just the big questions (that are more like themes) that I find there should not be a answer for outside of the STs whims

I didn't feel like the Great Prophecy gave answers - it raised more questions than it answered, that's what I liked about it. The Sids saw three futures. They tried to maneuvre Creation down the bronze one, but did they succeed? Did they instead nudge it closer to the darkness? Were the bronze and gold truly alternate options, or were they sequential - i.e. can the PCs still fulfil the vision of gold?

Apparently it wasn't taken that way by the fanbase, which is sad, but I still think the throwing it all out and saying "nah, Kejak just decided" instead of, I dunno, correcting the fanbase's misconceptions, was the worse option.
>>
Also, is there a reason why the Deathlords can't just do a second great contagion beyond the usual 'they totally could, but are just infighting'.
>>
>>87494076
The 90% of people who were vulnerable to it are already dead. The people who were immune survived.

They can't pull out a similar-but-different one that people wouldn't be immune to because they can't pull exactly the thing they want out of the Well of Udr. It's a gacha and they got lucky.
>>
>>87494076
Remember the Great Contagion was something they pulled out of the Well, they could get lucky and find something similar but as MoeP:Alchemicals points out, the survivors of the first one were the ones who had natural immunity or who's bodies have now developed resistance to it as it would any other disease
Of course, MoeP:Alchemicals also points out that the inhabitants of Autobot won't have that when they reconnect with Creation so....
>>
>>87494093
Alright, thats decent enough. Still don't like the Deathlords though.
>>
Speaking of the Contagion:

People of /exg/, I'm building a Citrine Poxes of Creation user in 3e. Post your craziest, ironic, and most unusual diseases! The worse they are when I threaten people with them, the better!
>>
>>87494191
Turns you into a clown.
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>>87494191
A shrinking virus. It shrinks people.
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>>87494260
A disease that leaves people more and more unable to inhibit laugher, progresses over days until they asphyxiate, and spreads when you hear an infected person tell a joke.
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>>87494191
A rare strain of Jigsaw Puzzle Condition called Dick Falls Off And Runs Away Syndrome
>>
>>87495565
>Dick Falls Off And Runs Away Syndrome
The worst kind of STD.
>>
>>87494191
Corona Virus: Makes anima flare at a minimum level based on disease intensity, with some imagery that's a tell for the virus. Spreads when one infected glowing+ anima touches another anima that's glowing+.
>>
>>87494191
A disease whose entire purpose is to self-propagate, which alters the mindset of the people who get it, changing people's defining intimacy to "Spread the bacteria" and giving them 10 willpower to carry out the task regardless of what they had before.

The disease has no other side effects.
>>
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>Sell mortals to the Fair Folk
>Buy mortals back after they've had their emotions sucked out
>Use mortals as mindless automatons to till the fields and work the mines
>When they're too old to work, forge the mortals into soulsteel
Is there any way to use mortals more efficiently than this?
>>
>>87495808
Instead of soulsucking them, you could summon Aleuva, and mindfuck the mortals into having a defining intimacy of being whatever you want at the time.

It's not like mortals need to be soulsucked to till the fields or whatever, it's all they ever do.
>>
>>87495738
This sounds ridiculous and makes you ask yourself questions like "What if everybody's already infected?!" but looking at some of the flora and fauna out there in Creation, especially out in the East, makes me think it might not be so ridiculous. Heart Wasps and Chakra Orchids are already doing something similar. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for that disease, almost exactly as written (just add mechanics), to exist, be a known element, and have lore and superstitions about it and ways to deal with it.

>>87494191
A disease that gets you caught up in romantic entanglements of increasing depth and drama until you eventually die of heartbreak.

>>87495808
>Is there any way to use mortals more efficiently than this?
Give them happy lives that leave them extremely loyal and productive in a manner that is self-sustaining and self-correcting towards ideals that are positive for you, and make their society's primary goals be the continuous improvement and creation of dragonlines and demesne, and the upkeep and supply of your manses. For 1e/2e manses, and probably 3e, the ability to put Maintenance 5 on every manse without having to put in any effort for it far outweighs the benefits you're getting out of being wildly abusive, even before considering the advantages of not needing to supply your factory-cathedral / atelier-manses automatic production lines because the mortals can do it for you. If you can get them to upkeep your automata, all the better, it's quite hard to make maintenance-automata that can be as broadly effective as well-trained mortals. Also, if you're going to have them around your manses, it'd be unpleasant, unartistic, and a massive social blunder in crowds with Compassion for them to be mindless/depressed/suffering/brainwashed.
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>>87495863
Yes but you get resources from the Fair Folk if you sell them. Then you can get even more resources by buying them back again afterwards and working them near to death. A mindless automaton will never take breaks, will only require the minimum of sustenance, and will need no entertainment, nor will they complain of back pain while working the rice fields or whatever. I'm not sure if there'd be enough left of their personality to even HAVE a defining intimacy to being whatever I want after what the Fair Folk put them through though.
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>>87495884
>Give them happy lives that leave them extremely loyal and productive in a manner that is self-sustaining and self-correcting towards ideals that are positive for you, and make their society's primary goals be the continuous improvement and creation of dragonlines and demesne, and the upkeep and supply of your manses.
So set up a cult that worships my exalt and use a combination of indoctrination and whatever artifacts are necessary to ensure that every mortal grows up to have a defining Intimacy of serving me, then have them do what you said with regards to the manses and production lines, follow that up with a breeding program to produce god-blooded soldiers, as well as another breeding program to produce the purest Terrestrials possible.
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>>87495898
Well, you get resources when you sell them, and it costs resources to buy them back. Basically a wash.

All you really get is a standard model peasant, and a stack of raw soulsteel when they die. Versus artifacts crafted by a master craftsman.
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>>87495927
That's Prasad, yes.
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>>87495965
An even more efficient Prasad with Solars at the helm.
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>>87495808
Can you even make soulsteel out of mortals that've had their souls eaten by fae? Remember that the mind is literally the soul in Exalted, and eating all of a mortal's emotions/faculties is the same thing as eating their soul. Just because they're mobile and responding to you doesn't mean they still have souls to forge into soulsteel.
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>be a mighty and great god of renown
>fall in love with a mortal girl
>marry her
>realize how short lived mortals are
>beg UC for exigency
>GRANTED
>diminished to almost nothing, for true love demands sacrifice
>your beloved cucks you in less than a week after recieving exigency

I this good enough backstory for 3 dot mentor spirit?
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>>87495808
T. Guild factor. watch out for opalescent bones
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>>87495978
Solars at the helm does put a time limit on how long you can keep peak civilization going, though. Eventually they'll go mad and break everything down into something overall worse, but which pleases them more. An OCD Solar forcing everybody in the civilization to adhere to their carefully constructed plans, too precise and extensive for mortals to remember, for example.

>>87495994
>I this good enough backstory for 3 dot mentor spirit?
Yup. It's almost exactly the same as a canon story about a volcano god and their Exigent, actually, except that the volcano god in the canon story was if anything even wimpier.
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>>87496004
Let’s be honest, the Solars never would’ve been horrified by the Heart-Eaters, they would’ve used them as middle managers to control billions of mortals.
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>>87496017
First Age Solars did more and worse than Heart-Eaters ever did. You can't tell me their mind-controlling mandatory state languages didn't effectively pawn more people than the guys that had to go out and mind control people manually.
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>>87495994
Yes, Nurlissa fucked off after receiving her exigency.
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Exalted virtues cover most of the Christian virtues, except for one interestingly enough: Humility. Humility is not considered a virtue within Exalted, at least not by the UCS or the Ebon Dragon who created him. I wonder if that was in the Dragon’s plans to fuck things up.
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>>87496017
Probably didn't want competition, and Lunars feared losing their spot as second in command.

>>87496135
Compassion kind of took its place, and it is hard to implement.
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>>87496228
>Compassion kind of took its place
Not really the same thing. You can be a compassionate person and still be incredibly prideful.
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>>87496135
Not really. There are two traditional lists:

prudence, justice, temperance, fortitude, faith, hope, and charity.

And

chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience, kindness, and humility.

Also the fruits of the spirit:

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness

None really map to Exalted virtues. Temperance and compassion, sure, but not valor, or conviction. You could make an argument for justice or faith to be conviction, but really, they're conviction about very specific things.
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>>87488537
Which MAs are best paired with White Veil?
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Umbrals, Hearteaters and Dream-Souled, Ability or Attribute based?
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>>87497205
Citrine Poxes of Creation is the classic and best match. Beyond that, it depends on the edition. Throne Shadow often works well, since they're both designed to work well in similar situations. Crane and Black Claw are the next-best fits for that particular category, and not bad at it. Charcoal March of Spiders is not bad either, for similar reason to Citrine Poxes - nasty touch effects that don't need damage to trigger mix well with the effects that say you can apply touch effects without starting combat.
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I'm faced with a dilemma. There's a character I'm writing that despises hypocrites and also despises the Realm because (warring against his tribe aside) he believes they pillage and oppress people just as much as his tribe does but they dress it up in the conceits of civilization while he and his tribesmen are (in his eyes) honest about it. My question is, should these thoughts be expressed as a single Intimacy of despising hypocrites, or two for each thought?
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>>87498812
Two for each
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The trouble with exalted...is that it's full of exalts.
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>>87498992
I meant "one for each thought" but I get ya. Thanks.
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>>87499866
Sorry, it was supposed to be "two, one for each", but I ate the "one".
Multiple Intimacies is preferable because it is easier to work with.
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How strong is a Wood DB with a Jade bow? No one super elite, just a standard DB who went through the usual training and military experience.
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>>87499959
Depends on his luck.
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>>87499959
Did he invest in Excellencies, Charms or Evocations?
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Thoughts about Holden's projects?
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Do the colors of Sidereal castes have any meaning or is it random?
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>>87488537
I'm just going to repost a post I made about them a dozen threads ago since it's incredibly relevant to the question as it was about Liminals place in the setting vs. Abyssals.

>Honestly, I like the conceptual gameplay mechanics of Liminals… if it was attached to Abyssals. Seriously, think about it. The idea that the neverborn don’t have the power to do anything more than corrupt the solar shards and so the abyssals have to build up their power by literally stealing it from the living. Fuck, that plays better to the themes of death and entropy better than anything in their current ideas. If instead of the retarded take they are planning for third edition (give them charms relating to their deathlord bro and completely ignore/don’t think about how that is the exact same thing as what infernals are) actually make them creatures of death. The idea of making them steal body parts as their unique method of growth would be awesome. Hell, make it so when they do their version of limit break the magic that blinds all the parts together fails and they are literally revealed for the stitched together mass of misbegotten stolen life that they should be. Hell, even necromancy is nothing more than the pilfering of the remains and energy of life only to bring it back as a horrid facsimile.
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>>87488537
>>87503634
>If Holden had just decided to remake Abyssals using the ideas for Liminals I think people would have loved it. Let’s face it, no one really likes Abyssals much. They have only ever been goth Solars in practice and the only way people have ever meaningfully played them was to try and do a redemption arc and become a Solar again sans great curse. Wooo… The whole “nobility of death” shtick is just woefully lacking in interesting flavor in practice, not to mention leaves it feeling like there is no meaningful difference between them and deathlords in practice other than power level.
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Permanently killing a second circle demon changes the third circle demon in some way right? The same way killing a third circle demon changes its Yozi?

Considering the amount of dicks in Creation, it seems kinda hard to believe that no Lunar (or Terrestrial circle using workings to summon unbound demons) has decided to see what would happen if they systematically murdered Ligier's (or some other suitably important) souls once a month for a few years. For the Lunar you don't even need to fight them right? You just bind them and order them to stay still while you <splat equivalent of ghost eating technique> them.
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>>87496011
I thought the Volcano god's priest got jealous and was going to kill his girlfriend and he gave her an exigence to save her and kill the treacherous priest or something like that?
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>>87504229
The change to a 3CD from killing a 2CD is very minor and possibly under the 3CD's control. It's nowhere near as big a change as killing a 3CD in 1e/early 2e. Even late 2e making it so that it only changes a single Intimacy is still a bigger change than what happens to a 3CD.
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>>87491509
The best way to do this sort of thing is what they did for the Nexus guy. Throw up a ton of possible options as ideas for people to use and possible hooks they'd create. They wouldn't have to go into that sort of detail, but it'd be a nice way to get the imagination going.
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>>87504276
I think that anon called the god a wimp, because he was bullied to suicide, by his priestess.
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>>87503634
Neat idea. That gives a hit of something the abyssals really felt like they lacked.
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>>87504558
Bullied to suicide and sacrificing yourself to save your lover and kill your enemy are different.
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>>87504291
Wait what the hell, does killing 3CDs not affect Primordials and Yozis in 3e?

>>87493488
My stance is that I prefer lower lows as long as they also come with higher highs, and not the bland, shallow, uninteresting surface level shite and dice trick Charmlines that 3e wallows in.

>>87493487
Neat.

>Also, we absolutely used prior editions lore with 3e mechanics.
That explains a lot.
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>>87506114
>uninteresting surface level shite and dice trick Charmlines that 3e wallows in.
Mechanics =/= Lore. There are plenty of reasonable things to shit on 3e for, but I sometimes feel like it murdered folks parents or something.
3e didn't kill the franchise, 2e had its completed run (with the setting blowing up because White Wolf). 2e also has its own mechanical problems and stupid shit. Some things that really suprised me with their stupidity in 3e turns out had their origins from previous editions. I can't believe
>'put armor on fast, but like in a couple of turns'
continues to be a charm. Thats sub D&D 3e feat level.

In addition, I meant 2es lows also often do come from a blandness. If you explain a mystery, the explanation for said mystery better be interesting. If its 'nothing special happened, basically what you expected', then yeah its a kinda 'Oh....alright' kind of low. Not a 'Wow thats stupid bullshit' lows, which 2e does have in places.
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>>87506217
>sometimes feel like it murdered folks parents or something.
It sure feels like it did mine. I don't deny that 2e had it's lows but the way 3e, and the people part of it, are so goddamn proud of concepts like "normal, non-familiar animals can have not!Charms and Legendary Size" and "Infernals will be green Solars with absolutely no transhumanist elements, nuh-uh" and whatever the hell is going on with that one Socialise charm that functions as resurrection feel like they have absolutely terrible ideas about how to fix the game and absolutely no clue about what people actually enjoyed about prior editions.

I know a lot of dumb shit comes from prior editions, I'm not a fan of put your armour on quickly: The Charm. But at the same time 3e manages to screw up things I didn't imagine even possible solely for the sake of not being like 2e, such as making Flashing Peak a good admin. I can see the benefits of not making Yu-Shan actively antagonising to a Sidereal player as well as the appeal of Sidereals being treated like celebrities rather than scum, but the way every other god is toned down from their excesses and corruptions greatly lessens the stakes of accomplishing anything there. It also has a really bad habit of trying to "fix" problems that come more from the fanbase being autistic than anything, like with Progenitive Essence and the Law of Diminishment.

I don't really agree 2e is as entirely lacking in mystery as some claim either, there are quite a few things left fairly open-ended.
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>>87506217
Also

>mechanics =/=
>Soul Reprisal
>Upon being struck down, the Solar grasps the light of her divinity before it can flee and is drawn into her next incarnation without leaving her body
I want to be very, very specific about this one particular gripe that goes beyond Final Ray of Light and seems to be explicitly trying to game around the "no resurrection" rule, or the stupidity of God-King's Shrike being fluffed as the Solar being so smart the universe realises it's wrong. 3e very specifically tries to play mechanics as being lore in certain Charms in a way that's very jarring and out of theme for the Exalted they belong to.
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>>87506217
>Mechanics =/= Lore.
If someone can do something in the lore, the mechanics of what they are should back it up though, otherwise you end up with some unanswerable questions
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>>87488824
>no less than 4 casteless/aspectless exalts
fuck off and take your homebrew with you
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>>87492260
liminals should have been about defying limits and crossing borders, and not some sort of promethean/deviant hybrid
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>>87497449
i would give hearteaters abilities and umbrals and dreamsouled attributes, but i would also definitely give them castes/aspects
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>>87499976
shut up luckfaggot. post your special made luck exalted you keep moaning can kill every solar
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>>87505049
>Bullied to suicide and sacrificing yourself to save your lover and kill your enemy are different.
Note that he didn't actually kill Liliha, the priestess who bullied the shit out of him. I mean, look at that background and read even a little between the lines. His chief priestess discovered that he was fucking a pilgrim on the side, and went to go chuck her in a volcano.

>Seeing no other means to save his lover, Ash on the Wind called upon the Unconquered Sun for deliverance.
He could see a way to stop her being sacrificed other than Exalting her. He wasn't able to intercede and get away with it. He wasn't able to make his priestess stop - who, as a reminder, draws her political power from worshipping him. After Exalting, Odara still had to flee.

In-thread after seeing this for the first time the conclusion was that Liliha was able and willing to beat the shit out of her own god and throw Odara into the volcano herself, because it wasn't political power, it wasn't blackmail, and Ash on the Wind didn't think he would be able to walk in and drag out his lover and get away with it. If anybody in the story deserves to become Exalted, it's Liliha, and going by the text at the end under Secrets, she may very well have done so.
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So I want to build a fiend mostly for the anima power but I really don't like Witness to Darkness because I don't want to shoot my charisma in the foot. Which is a bit of a problem because 90% of Teds charms are built on it. Is there a way to work around that or should I just pick another caste?
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>>87507413
Pick another caste or just don't grab Witness to Darkness and meander around the rest of his charm tree/pick up other Yozi's charms
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>>87506114
2e Yozi mechanics say that killing Jacint only removes Adorjan's Intimacy for building roads (Adorjan has an Intimacy for building roads now) and replaces it with a new one. We are unlikely to see 3e Yozi stats at all, but so presumably unless the lore mentions otherwise at some point that version stands if you accept older editions' lore.
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>>87507413
Focus hard on your Favored Yozi and just pick up the Ebon Dragon Charms that don't require Witness to Darkness. There aren't many of them, but they're all high value. Consider going into Martial Arts or sorcery.

It's not even a particularly bad strategy, especially if you're willing to homebrew. Most of the Yozi are supremely broad thematically, and you never really did need to expand to more than one in the first place.
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>>87507889
I see, I see. Thanks.
And let's say that theoretically pick up Witness to Darkness. Is there a way to boost my charisma up to mitigate the effect or is it just not worth it?
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>>87506666
Ability based Hearteaters may end up in a Janest/Sovereigns situation.

>umbrals and dreamsouled attributes
Umbrals being Attribute based seems to be the general consensus.

>Castes/Aspects.
Makes sense.
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What exactly are the games of divinity?
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>>87506673
Seething lucklet.
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>>87508325
The people who have all the luck get Exaltations anyways. The idea of a “lucky mortal” is a fiction because any mortal must by definition be unlucky to still be a mortal in the first place.
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>>87508340
They could have run out of slots before he was born.
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>>87508346
Which would make him unlucky. Especially since he still could’ve exalted as a Terrestrial but didn’t.
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>>87508354
Getting exalted as a terrestrial is bad luck. He'll just kill a solar to get his spot.
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>>87508369
If he was lucky he wouldn’t have to kill a Solar in the first place.
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>>87508383
Whether you exalt or not isn't up to dice.
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>>87508391
No, but it is up to random chance.
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>>87508402
Then the solar will die to something else just as soon as the lucky mortal is ready for his spot.
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>>87508416
We’ve already established there’s no such thing as a lucky mortal. If he was lucky he wouldn’t be a mortal.
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>>87508421
Yeah he would be. Nobody is born a solar. That's nonsense.
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>>87508428
Nobody is born a Solar, but the lucky people are born during a time when there's a slot open to give to them.
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>>87508433
The only thing that defines someone as lucky is if they can roll their dice well and prevent others from doing the same. Since exaltation is not a dice roll, that's irrelevant.
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>>87508135
I wanted to say there was a way to give one of your Charms to someone else temporarily, the Dragonblood equivalent to Power-Awarding Prana in Bureaucracy, but it turns out that it's only in 3e and the prior equivalents are more powerful but have less potential for abuse. Death at the Root in Oadenol's Codex may also be able to turn it off, though your ST could very reasonably tell you that it doesn't work on Permanent charms.

Here's a slightly silly but also kinda cool workaround, though. The Spy Who Walks In Darkness is mute, but doesn't let you use Charm effects when acting through it via telepresence. If you're telepresence'ing into the Spy and cast The Sacred Tongue, it should be able to lipread you and repeat your words out to people around the Spy. Obviously, wearing a golden mask is probably going to reduce the Spy's ability to stealth around in it's normal ways, but you could potentially walk around with the Spy in your shadow wearing a golden mask and speak through it when you want to convince people with honesty.
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>>87508449
Except the gods who give out the exaltations do so depending on their dice rolls in the Games of Divinity, thus it is based on a dice roll.
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>>87508461
Show me the rules for that.
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Does anyone else find it kind of weird that this game about making everything worse for everyone has entire castes with abilities oriented around bureaucracy? How do you work making the bureaucracy more efficient into the world becoming a worse place?
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>>87508467
Same way you do that in real life.
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>>87508472
Usually the places that are the shittiest to live IRL also have terribly inefficient bureaucracies though.
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>>87508467
The people with supernatural bureaucracy have competitors, limited time, dreams bigger than their means, and the very best of them tend to take on crazy projects that aren't actually good for people. It's important to understand that people can very easily shortcut Bureaucracy in Exalted by doing kung-fu fighting and redirect a local organisation in minutes.

Many Bureaucratic and organisation-effecting magics are also very much not about making the bureaucracy more efficient. Often, they're about manipulating a bureaucracy socially, making it less efficient, crippling it's ability to do things you don't like, securing your place in it, and making it do weird magic stuff.

A big part of the issue is that the people with the power generally aren't using it for the common good over personal interest, and then part of it is that their powers don't actually work in such a light-hearted way.
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>>87508460
Oh shit! That trick with the spy id exactly the kind of bullshit loophole I was looking for! It's so clever! Thanks a bunch anon! I'll look more into it!
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Ideas for evocations of a 5 dot soulsteel/moonsilver medium armor?

The backstory for it is it was created by a Solar and Lunar after they both binded a 3c deva hekatonhire's essence into it. The defeated hekatonhire is a spherical mass of shadows that appears in the Underworld's skies like a meteor. It's screams usually inflict curses on people.
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>>87508324
Undetailed. I'd like to imagine them as something offering pure joy of creation without the dull and messy parts of creation, like some kind of a world creation sinulation with limitless potential, one where even the basic rules of the thing being created are malleable, with the competitive aspect being in the various players trying to impose their vision over that of the others. That jyst seems like the kind of thing Primordials might enjoy, and something that could draw the Incarnae in by offering a taste of the kind of almost omnipotent creative power even they don't possess.
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>>87509945
Minecraft?
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>>87510030
What I had in mind was more like a more controllable mini-Wyld with even the Shinma being something you can create, destroy or alter.
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>>87508324
Heroes of Might and Magic 3
It fits every detail we know
>it's a strategy game
>it has turns
>it's addictive
>it has a score
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>>87510194
The Sims?
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Does the underworld and ghosts have to be gloomy? Always felt like it should feel more like a party.
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>>87512017
Influences from Wraith the Oblivion, see NWoD 1e underworld for a more lively one.
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>>87506569
Heart-Eaters, Getimians, Revelers, and???
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>>87512044
Yeah, if anything it always felt like the people most associated with death should be the most 'lively' ones in a sense. The Solars and Terrestrials are running around like mad dogs trying to save the world, so what's left for the people who needn't worry about such things other than to celebrate and relax?
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>>87509945
>>87510194
i think these guys are closest to the mark. i picture the games as something that is both enlightening and arcane, the players given both the tools and capacity to enact a creation of their own devising built on the nature of the wyld and the shinma to radically restructure and shift it's own rules. At the same time, other player's either create their own things that can contradict or twist such a system fundamentally, and turns are the culmination of a change to these manifold realities distilled into a sublime and halcyon instant. the closest i can picture to these are cosmic conflicts with being like the elder gods, of mythos fame, the archmaster's struggle for the tellurian in awakening, or crayak and the ellemist's proxy war in animorphs. It's also why the exalted are forbidden from entering the games because, as beings embodying the inherent power to break divine limits, the nature of the game must forever be kept from them, or actual creation will never withstand what they could learn from such an experience, to say nothing of the gods themselves
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>>87512263
his version of infernals
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>>87512806
They have crowns instead.
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>>87512796
So, Bartok.
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>>87512017
I think Underworld should be lively and busy and passionate at the first glance but kind of depressing when you get a better grasp of things, with ghosts desperately trying to remind themselves of what it feels like to be alive and therefore throwing themselves fully and eagerly into all kinds of affairs, adventures, entertainments and other pursuits.
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>>87504229
Dunno, seems easy for me. Lunars are consistently useless in every edition.
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>>87514414
In 3e, don't they pick the weak? Attacking remote satrapies, but fearing those who can fight back.
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>>87514677
Its smart strategy for fighting a longterm guerrila war, but it also means that in practice they are thugs that remain the butthurt barbarians from 1e.
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>>87515527
Isn't their only involvement in the Realm Civil War, a battle for the dominance of the Caul?
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>>87513278
Considering that being a ghost is pretty much just like being alive but without any of the downsides of worry about scarcity it seems like it wouldn't be that depressing at all desu
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>>87515625
I mean, Heirs to the Shogunate repeatedly states in its civil war/War for the West scenario that Lunars are going to get involved in some way. I have no idea how you would come to the conclusion you have beyond listening only to the shitposters ITT who are mad that Lunars aren't "the Wyld splat" because they read some dumb bullshit from 1e that Grabowski said in between smoking weed and listening to buttrock.
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>>87516010
Lunars would have been much better if grabowski actually made lunars while smoking weed and listening to buttrock.
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>>87514414
I wouldn't say Lunars are useless. Consider the following:
>They survived the Usurpation
>They're smart enough to realize that constantly trying to change Creation is pointless
Really what more do you expect out of an exalt?
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>>87512891
i haven't heard of bartok, what does it entail?
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>>87516077
>Lunars would have been much better if grabowski actually made lunars while smoking weed and listening to buttrock.
He made all of Exalted doing that, but I think the reason Lunars blew chunks for two editions was largely because the devs were into the dumb "barbarians vs civilized peoples" shit that's never made sense.

Still, don't really get what the Lunars haters want out of them, since the various suggestions in this thread are generally out of the spirit of Exalted. The Solars, Sidereals, and Dragon-blooded all operate in a very defined historical context, and the interesting stuff in the game is seeing how this context results in the current politics of the setting; Solars toppling Dragon-blooded satrapies and doing what Conan did when he took over Aquillonia, Gold Faction Sidereals hiding young Solars from their Bronze peers and Dragon-blooded shikari, Dynasts out to fend off the other powers of the world from taking the scraps of the dying empire they're fighting for. All good stuff, but this thread frequently suggests that, rather than Lunars following suite and interacting with the setting like the rest do, that they instead hang out in the inchoate and undefinable territories of the Wyld and, I dunno, punch raksha all day. I don't know where the fixation on being generic guardians of the world who fight a group of beings that you don't have to feel bad about killing comes from, but frankly, it's dull as dishwater and I enjoy the 3e Silver Pact stuff as it leads to fun scenarios where you have to oppose other Exalts frequently and, thus, deal with the complexities of opposing other human beings.
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>>87516353
I got no issue with the Lunars, mostly just the framing of them in 3e, and only specifically in their own book.
That they are dicks. I know there is one guy here who argues in bad faith about how the Lunars MUST be sociopaths, all the time, each and every one, and it has to be in some specific way.
But the silver pact is portrayed as nuetral when its nuts. Its a nuts thing run by nuts people, that plan to replace a functional empire, with nothing but an empire of nuts.

But thats only the Silver pact really.
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>>87516711
What do they do that's so insane again?
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>>87516809
I mean if your for people just being petty assholes: Nothing. Or if you find living for revenge reasonable, also nothing. And I guess if you think its impossible Lunars to live in any fashion without causing tens of millions in deaths, I guess also nothing.
But I at least personally find holding people alive today accountable for crimes commited long ago to be pretty spiteful. The Silver pact wants to smash the realm, but has no reasonable plan to replace it. Many of the people in charge lived through the great contagion, and still somehow put more priority on smashing the realm then figuring out what the fuck is going on a larger scale.
Even if I where to go to smashing the realm, my focus would be to catch it as it falls. To posit yourselves as its saviors in its time of timult. Otherwise there may not be a creation to even rule once its all collapsed.
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>>87517012
The Lunars can survive in the Wyld, what need have they for petty things like worrying about the state of Creation?
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>>87517181
This sort of stuff makes me wonder how much of this thread is genuinly inhabited by autists.
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>>87515742
A ghost is literally not a whole person, though. Higher soul without the lower one isn't a full human. I think 3E core explicitly states that this affects ghosts.

>>87516353
I'm not completely happywith 3E Lunars, but I agree that the suggestions for fixing Lunars /exg/ offers tend to be pretty terrible.

>>87517181
Consider this: Lunars are from the Creation, and people tend to have attachments to their homes.
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>>87517181
I mean, being able to walk around in the Wyld without disintegrating into a shoggoth is nice, but it doesn't make the Wyld a place in which you would like to live in it, or indeed even capable of being lived in in the first place. The Moonsilver tattoos don't make the ground stop turning into screaming technicolor acid or the pineapples made of rubies edible, and they definitely don't make the locals hospitable.
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>>87517308
>Consider this: Lunars are from the Creation, and people tend to have attachments to their homes.
Consider this: Mortals die quickly. Exalts don't. Eventually an exalt won't even recognize their own hometown anymore, they'll be surrounded by strangers in a culture they no longer feel attached to.
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>>87517527
OK, whats the poll here. 3 skitzos, trolls, or autists to 1 person with even the begginings of a clue?

These threads go in circles explaining basic principles.
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>>87517308
>Higher soul without the lower one isn't a full human.
The lower soul is just shit like base instincts, not things you really need as a ghost.
>>
How discussions here work:

>Man people are idiots eating food 3 times a day. You could save so much money by eating once every 3 weeks.
>Why would people be upset about having a kindey stolen? You only need one.
>20 Chihahas should be able to replace a german shepherd as part of a police unit. They weight about the same.
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>>87517565
Tell me about it. I don't even know why or how you'd come to care for the idea of "mortals die after like 70 years or so even in a well-cared for place, ergo that means that all Exalts are detached aliens and therefore would want to live in a place where raksha keep trying to eat you instead of with people they like in some comfortable palace far away from the fucking Fae".
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>>87517012
The biggest problem in 3e was making the Lunars "as a splat" defined by their opposition to the Realm. When that makes no sense and just comes across as the supposed defenders of Creation trying tear down Creations only polity that could meaningfully aid in said defense. And in fact does, because the Wyld Hunt 99% of the time hunts other things than exalts.
And there is no sensinle reason why Lunars as a wjole would be this butthurt about them. Elders would be mad at Sids for the Usurpation, Contagn era Lunars woulrmber how DBs were throwing themselves heroically into doom to fight for every inch of Creation against Balor and modern Lunars supposedly come mostly from "wild" people beyond the Threshold .... where the Realm can barely project power and most exploitation wouldn't be through the Realm but from smaller Threshold states and guild factors. I a vey lazy "freedom fighting Lunars vs. The evil empire" trrying to shoehorn a justification together.
Instead of Getiminians they should have made the beef Lunar vs. Sid which makes a lot more sense even i to the current time, since Sids represent that kind of anathemical order and restriction prospective Lunars could have a beef with no mere they are from. And relationship with the Realm and DBs shouldd be a lot more around fighting/helpimg/de-programming them,
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>>87517776
It can make sense if you play up the great curse angle. They just weirdly don't is I guess basically my one issue.
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>>87513278
Stygia pre-Deathlords taking over was pretty much exactly this. Post-Deathlords it's this but also nephwracks are taking over with their depressing void-worship.

>>87517665
>that last one
They're also forty times as vicious.
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>>87517665
>When that makes no sense and just comes across as the supposed defenders of Creation trying tear down Creations only polity that could meaningfully aid in said defense.
"The supposed defenders of Creation" is a weird statement. Where on Earth did you infer that they're chosen to defend the world? They were originally selected to be the best at tearing out the throats of various Primordial forces, and then later chosen because they were skilled people that Luna finds interesting. The Silver Pact makes no claim of being the world police, to my knowledge. I can imagine that repelling invasions from the Fair Folk or, currently, the Deathlords is immensely practical for the purposes of preserving oneself and one's feudal property, but I don't there's ever been any "sacred duty" imported to the Lunars to do any of what you're implying. They defend their territory because its their home and their stuff is their, just like any other faction, and destroying the Realm just means that the Lunars now have to pick up Wyld patrol duty.
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>>87517924
>Where on Earth did you infer that they're chosen to defend the world?
The entire exalted host are the stewards of creation. You are completly missing the point here, which is that the Lunars are specifically not doing whst you claim "just defend their territory" because they are specifically going out of their way to get their pet tribes massacred by throwing them against the Realm. And according to 3e thats even the point of the Silver Pact. If they 'did' just defend their turf they wouldn't care all that much about the usually very very distant Realm.
They should be what you are saying, but according to 3e they aren't.
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>>87517527
Consider this, though: while mortals may die quickly, an Exalt's memories don't, and nor do emotional attachments.

>>87517565
Sounds about right, ubfortunately.

>>87517624
Basic instincts and basic emotions. These are pretty important to a human, anon.
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>>87517924
>Once, the Lunar Exalted matched their aptitudes to their Solar counterparts, the better to protect the world they made.
Exalted core, p46.
Its not a novel concept that Lunars are defending creations borders.
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>>87517776
Phoneposting was a mistake. That aside, you are right.
The central Lunar conflict should be with Sidereal not with the Realm/Dragonbloods.
Opposing heaven's corrupt destiny weaving (which includes fighting the influence of the immaculate belief), is something with a lot more narrative space than wanting to destroy the Realm.
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>>87518231
>Consider this, though: while mortals may die quickly, an Exalt's memories don't, and nor do emotional attachments.
Hence why exalts become detached. If exalts memories of their old culture and friends faded, they could make new friends and adopt new cultural norms easily. As it stands, within 100 years everything an exalt feels attached to will be dead and gone, and exalts can live for thousands of years. At that point, the only thing an exalt could possibly relate to is other exalts.
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>>87519166
Exalted aren't the only things thast last a while in Creation. Cities and countries, spirits and constructs, families and conspiracies, and so much more.
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>>87519215
>Cities and countries
Whose cultures develop and change, becoming unrecognizable to the exalt before long.

>spirits and constructs
I'll grant you this one.

>families and conspiracies
These also change similar to cultures.
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>>87519237
>Whose cultures develop and change, becoming unrecognizable to the exalt before long.
Note that I didn't actually say culture. The fact of the matter is the culture changes all the time, and the Exalted aren't special for outliving theirs. A person might feel like a stranger after returning to and old culture after being gone for a while, but can usually adapt to the new normal. Most Exalted are able to be even more adaptable to changing social mores than normal humans are. You're wailing dramatically over something that is nothing special on the scale of Exalted drama, even if it's important to people when it happens IRL.
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>>87519280
The scale of exalted drama is "I don't like Creation, let's make a new one." If that doesn't show detachment I don't know what does.
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>>87519290
That's the scale of Exalted drama is what you described in the minds of people who don't play games. In the actual setting Exalts are very much invested in the Creation.
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>>87519290
That's not a scale, that's an example. Fulfilling a childhood romance could be the topic of Exalted drama, as another example, or tracking down the masked thieves who stole your mother's medicine. Putting many examples together, we can create a scale.
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>>87519338
They're invested in the same way fair folk are invested. Yes they care about creation but I wouldn't say a wolf that look at a deer like a delicious meal is deeply "invested" in the deer in the sense that most people think when you say that. You're just being pointlessly pedantic at that point.
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>>87519356
I don't think you've been reading any of the motivations or perspectives of the characters that exist in the setting of Exalted. At the very least, what you say all Exalted think and the way you describe them acting doesn't match with what I've been reading in any situation outside very specific Limit Breaks that most Exalted don't even experience.
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>>87519377
Well when I run into an exalt that cares about Creation, I'll let you know.
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I bet the lucky mortal would care after exalting.
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>>87519467
Nah, the lucky mortal wouldn't give a shit. Exalted is a dog-eat-dog world, as soon as you're no longer the face that the boot steps on, it's time to start stepping on others.
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>>87519397
Just read the books for once and you have dozens of canonical exalts, all of which are heavily invested in creation and stuff in it.
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>>87516245
It's basically just a simple a discard-your-hand card game where every round, someone invents a new rule, then you play it again with that rule, repeat. It generally gets more amusing the drunker you are.
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>>87519660
I'll let you know when they write a book with one of thosein it.
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>>87519791
There's lots of exalts that care about Creation, there's just no exalts that make Creation a better place.
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>>87519356
I doubt whether you've read any of the Exalted material aside from Internet discussions if you think that's a common mindset among Exalts.

>>87519397
Have you heard about Dace or Panther or Demetheus, or even Lyta in all her insanity, or even elders like Kejok Chejap whose goals and interests are all about the Creation?

>>87519791
Could I interest you in some Caste Books and Aspect Books, or, though it isn't as good, Scroll of Exaits? You can find them through the links in OP.
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>>87519821
>There's lots of exalts that care about Creation, there's just no exalts that make Creation a better place.
The Scarlet Empress made the world a better place. The starting position was 90% world casualties to a death-plague and being overrun by creatures of the wyld, and her actions definitely made the world overall better from there. She's also an evil emperor who conquered the world through use of main force and unstoppable superweapons, implemented some pretty nasty population controls, fucks with her allies and family in order to keep a tighter control over the Realm, and has killed millions of mortals.

Making Creation a better place does not make you a good person.
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>>87519932
>She's also an evil emperor who conquered the world through use of main force and unstoppable superweapons, implemented some pretty nasty population controls, fucks with her allies and family in order to keep a tighter control over the Realm, and has killed millions of mortals.
Sure sounds like she didn't make Creation a better place then.
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>>87519477
I believe in him.
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>>87519938
She absolutely did. You would have to have failed to read the literal previous sentence that talked about the state of the world before she got involved to come to that conclusion. You're just braindead and trolling.
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>>87519938
It was an improvement over everyone having their soul eaten.
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>>87519953
The world was never in danger of having everyone get their soul eaten, the gods wouldn't have allowed it to happen.
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>>87519791
They did, 1e Caste Books. Literally every book has sample exalts in it and pretty much all of them care about creation and stuff in it
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>>87519959
Anon please open up a Exalted book one of these days and actually read the game you are talking about. Creation was doomed before the Empress activated the Sword of Creation, this is true in every edition. In 1e and 2e Yu-Shan outright locked itself in and had given up on Creation.
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>>87519988
Balor and his crusade got bitch slapped by the UCS.
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>>87519994
It wasn't.
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>>87520019
Ah right, that was Laashe. Ah well, if the gods killed Laashe they would've killed Balor too.
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>>87519959
I don't know if you've genuinely never rwad Exalted books or if you're just a retard who imagines he's only pretending to be retarded, but either way, just what do you get out of this? What kind of a dopamine rush can simply claiming that the fluff is different from what it is possibly provide?
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>>87520041
There is no argument here, its factually established they didn't and couldn't. Your headcanon is irrelevant here.
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>>87520073
Do you not understand the concept of in-setting propaganda?
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>>87520083
In-setting propaganda has nothing to do with this, as we have omniscient narrator information. Its not merely something the Realm claims.
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>>87520083
You're an idiot. The entire point of exalted is pretty much a defense of the Great Man Theory of history.
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>>87520096
I kinda doubt that. The entire reason why Solars being back is such a big deal is because individual Solars couldn't do much but with a whole Host of them the world is gonna change.
Same for the Empress, nothing suggests it specifically had to be her and no one else could have done it.
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>>87520121
The whole host of Solars amounts to 300 Great Men.
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>>87520083
I do. I can also tell apart in-setting propaganda from material written from an omniscient perspective for the players' benefit.

>>87520096
Fighting trolling with trolling is still just trolling.
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>>87520130
Explain how exalted would be better if the exalts didn't exist, retard.
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>>87520127
Thats completly missing the whole point of what the Great Man Theory is about. Solars are not special because of who they are as individuals, nor are they only Solars because of intrinsic leadership qualities without which "stuff wouldn't happen". In fact Exalted history is entirely driven by the actions of organisations and institutions.
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>>87520150
>In fact Exalted history is entirely driven by the actions of organisations and institutions.
Organizations whose power comes from a very small number of Great Men.
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>>87520158
The moment you require "a number of people" its not the great man theory anymore. That requires the individuals in question to be vital, not "some number of dudes". At that point you're just saying things happen because people do stuff, which is just a description of causality.
The Great Man Theory would posit that the Usurpation could not have happened without Chekop Kejak, for example. Which is arguable, as its entirely posible someone else could have done the job in it he did too. But it is 'arguable' there is no clear answer.
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>>87520181
>The great man theory is a 19th-century approach to the study of history according to which history can be largely explained by the impact of great men, or heroes: highly influential and unique individuals who, due to their natural attributes, such as superior intellect, heroic courage, extraordinary leadership abilities or divine inspiration, have a decisive historical effect.
Literally the exalts.

>This theory is usually contrasted with "history from below", which emphasizes the life of the masses creating overwhelming waves of smaller events which carry leaders along with them.
Literally the opposite of Creation.
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>>87520133
Obviously not if the Exalted didn't exist to kill the Primordials, that would be very bad. If the gods turned on the Exalted and locked the lot of them up in a box the moment the Primordials submitted, though, the world may very well have been a better place. Technology wouldn't be stifled by the theorized brain drain inflicted by Celestial Exalted, and even if that theory didn't pan out there wouldn't the strong trend towards artifice and magitech stifling no-magic technology. The same thing applies to thaumaturgy, without brain drain and cultural trends pushing as hard for sorcery. The early fae invasions could be driven off by the gods if they were still invested in ruling Creation and the Balorian Crusade wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue because with no Exalted ghosts there's no Deathlords and with no Deathlords there's no Great Contagion to wipe out the 90% and scare off the gods. The Unconquered Sun never turns his face from Creation, and there are no more world-ending threats. Probably mortals get pushed into the cult-prayer economy even harder than normal, but I mean, that's not strictly a bad thing because gods would need to work a little harder in return to keep their mortals safe as well.

Really, the only Celestial Exalted that the world might have been worse off from if they'd just disappeared after the end of the Primordial War are the Sidereal Exalted. It'd also hurt to lose the Dragonblood, many and varied excesses notwithstanding, because at the end of the day the Dragonblood make a relatively inoffensive way for mortals to push higher and strive for more. They're also the one that'd fold into an industrialized setting best and are most able to expand and produce a multitude of the low-level miracles that might be needed to survive Creation's daily disasters.
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>>87518241
Yeah they were "protecting the world they made" in the First Age because they were married to the most powerful people on the planet and benefitted from that arrangement. That arrangement is now over due to the Usurpation, and seeing as many gods of Heaven sided with the winning side of that conflict, there's not exactly an argument that there's any religious reason to not put the Realm six feet under and handle the defense of Creation themselves. There's no holy charge to do anything, the Creation-Ruling Mandate isn't the Ten Commandments, it's just the UCS and friends saying, "Ok, you get to run this place, we're going to Heaven to play the Games of Creation forever," otherwise the Sun would likely have been able to revoke the Mandate at any time instead of just getting sad and turning away.
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>>87520202
Exaltation is not a natural attribute. Its about individuals, "Solars" are not an individual. The argument would only hold if the same couldn't have been done by a different person with the exaltation.
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>>87520207
>there's not exactly an argument that there's any religious reason to not put the Realm six feet under
There is no argument why the Lunars should all be dedicated to destroying the Realm either.
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>>87520127
More like 300 Gay Men! They got their shit pushed in by a hundred thousand young Meruvian Dragon-blooded officers!
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>>87520213
That's cope. You could use the same argument to disqualify any educated person by saying that education is not a natural attribute.

>The argument would only hold if the same couldn't have been done by a different person with the exaltation.
This is the case in almost every case. Every Exalt is unique, with unique abilities. They're not standardized in the way you imply.
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>>87520204
>. If the gods turned on the Exalted and locked the lot of them up in a box the moment the Primordials submitted, though, the world may very well have been a better place.
The world would've been destroyed in the Balorian Crusade you idiot. The gods would've been too busy with the Games of Divinity to care and everyone would've died.

>>87520213
>Exaltation is not a natural attribute.
It only comes to worthy individuals though.
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>>87520238
>You could use the same argument to disqualify any educated person by saying that education is not a natural attribute.
Well its not. The whole point is that you couldn't just take another person and put them in the same situation to get the same result. The Great Man Theory says that if you gabe someone else the same education, they would, due to the lack of the greats mans natural attributes, still not be able to catalyse whatever happened.
That is literally why it is called that.

>This is the case in almost every case.
That would have to be proven. Exalts are individuals, but its absolutely not intrinsic tl the setting that no single exalt could be traded for another one and do the same stuff. The only real candidates we got to argue this for are the Empress and Ketchup.
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>>87520229
Its fun for players to do so and also the Realm is a world-spanning hegemonic force that will kill any Lunar within its territory or neighboring territories, of which there are many, and that territory tends to be where all the good stuff is. I don't understand how this is hard to grasp, and I fail to see how you don't seem to get how charismatic Elder Exalts with nifty social charms can recruit younger Lunars by pointing out how this parasitic empire has likely fucked them over in considerable ways, considering how likely it is for someone to be born in the satrapies, the Scavenger Lands (invaded several times by the Realm or Realm allies), or in places that have had prior conflicts with Dynasts.
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>>87520261
>The whole point is that you couldn't just take another person and put them in the same situation to get the same result
And you literally couldn't. There's only a handful of mortals in the world worthy of exaltation.
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>>87520258
>It only comes to worthy individuals though.
Thats absolutely true, but not what the great man theory is about. There are clearly a lot of worthy individuals by the criteria of exaltation.
But this is about specific events being catalysed by specific individuals and wether or not someone else could have done it in their place.
In the context of Exalted, this means "Could major event X have happened, if Z hadn't received their exaltation.". And this is a open question in Exalted just as it is in reality. Solars are a powerful group, but how interchangable they are among themselves is completly open.
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>>87520281
>And you literally couldn't.
Unproven statement.
>There's only a handful of mortals in the world worthy of exaltation.
I don't know if you understand what "a handful" means as there are around 800 of them around at any given time, plus Exigents and over 10k DBs.
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>>87520281
>There's only a handful of mortals in the world worthy of exaltation.
LOL. There are always almost 1000 of them and enough successors that new exaltation happens almost instantly the moment one becomes available.
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>>87520301
.0001% of the population seems rare enough to fall under the Great Man Theory to me.
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>>87520261
>That would have to be proven.
That's not how burden of proof works, but it's trivial to theorycraft. What happens if Dace is put in Yurgen's position? He isn't an icewalker, so he has nothing in common to rally them around, so he dies after failing to conjure up an army. Also, he's a tactician and commander, not a bureaucrat/strategist, and wouldn't have been able to organise the Bull's armies in the same way. What happens if you put Havesh in Jade's position? He works with the cult, or runs away without dismantling it or doing it any harm. Mnemon in the Scarlet Empress' position fails to get into the Imperial Manse, as she has for however long she's been trying as of canon start date. Swap Nagezzar and the Roseblack and the fat man dies even if you body swap them too and he becomes not a fat man.
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>>87520325
And you would be wrong. Because its about unique individuals.
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>>87520311
And yet the gods still are picky with who gets it, only granting exaltations to a worthy few.
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>>87520333
Not really, the only thing this is true for is Exigents and thats because the gods may die from it.
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>>87520331
The exalts are unique individuals. No two exalts are the same. Go ahead, just try to find two exalts who have the same
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>>87520338
Read the lore dipshit, the exaltations have always only been granted to the worthy, people who will use those exaltations to change the world and who fulfill the criteria of the gods.
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>>87520258
Balorian Crusade would've never happened without the Great Contagion, which would've never happened without Deathlords, who are ghosts of Exalts and also would've never happened without somewhat active Neverborn, and Neverborn wouldn't matter if Black Nadir Concordat woukdn't have messed arpund in their tombs.

>>87520261
I don't think you can even make that argument for Kejok.
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>>87520350
>Balorian Crusade would've never happened without the Great Contagion
What makes you think that? There are countless Fair Folk warlords who could easily conquer Creation without the exalts to protect it.
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>>87520330
>That's not how burden of proof works,
Of course it is. You are making a cöaim, that Exalted intrinsically supports the great man theory. So you will habe to prove how it does that, when the most important people in it are mostly important because they got a divine superweapon grafted into their soul, not their unique characteristics.
Your whoe example is nonsense, becausw you are comparing individuals with indivkduals when the real question is, could another Icewalker have exalted and fucked up the Realm and if the answer is yes, its not the great man theory. The great man theory would assume that ONLY Yurgen could have accomplished this , because of his inherent leadership qualities, and if anyone else in his tribe or among the icewalkers would have gotten the exaltation it wouldn't have happened.
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>>87520346
It's not the gods being picky outside 3e though, it's the criteria they've given the Exaltations being picky. That's different. Also, the number of people in Creation who are heroic, in good health, have great potential, and are willing to use it... that number is not small. It's not unreasonably large either, but Creation is very much written to be larger-than-life and that goes for it's peoples too.
>>
Exalts are just as defined by their upbringing, culture and circumstances as anyone else. The Scarlet Empress wouldn't create the Realm if the Balorian Crusade and the Great Contagion never happened and she wasn't near the Imperial Manse to take the Sword of Creation.
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>>87520346
By that logic there are a shitton of worthies. Its clearly a pretty broad category. Exaltations are limited by the number of exaltations around not the number of people worthy of them.
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>>87520369
>The great man theory would assume that ONLY Yurgen could have accomplished this , because of his inherent leadership qualities, and if anyone else in his tribe or among the icewalkers would have gotten the exaltation it wouldn't have happened.
Okay Mr. Smarts, prove it. Prove that his fellow icewalkers could have done it, since that's how you think burden of proof works.
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>>87520377
>Also, the number of people in Creation who are heroic, in good health, have great potential, and are willing to use it... that number is not small.
It is exceptionally small actually. Most people don't have great potential and have a slave mentality. The few people who have the initiative to be exalts are rare.
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>>87520386
There's literally so few worthy people that the gods have to get kinda loose with who is worthy just so they can hand out the exaltations.
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>>87520394
Pathetic copout. I literally said its an open question and there is no definite answer available. You are the one who claimed its definitely true and so you had to prove it.
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>>87520397
>>87520406
This is pure headcanon. Nowhere does it suggest Creation is lacking in exaltation candidates.
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>>87520425
Then explain Havesh the Vanisher.
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>>87520427
Great =/= Good
Conky isn't looking cor nice people, he is looking for people with a Will to Power.
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>>87520437
Explain how a person that uses his exaltation solely to leech off of other people rather than change the world is "great".
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>>87520442
Canonically the answer would be that he is "capable" of greatness. Doesn't mean its gonna happen, let alone anytime soon.
Not sure what you're looking for here? I wouldn't have given him one, but clearly Conky saw something in him.
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>>87520475
Exactly. The UCS has so few candidates suitable for exaltation he has to turn to people that are "maybe sorta gonna be great in the future, hopefully."
>>
Okay fine, Exalted doesn't support the Great Man Theory. It just supports the idea that a small number of unelected dictators with immense power is the correct way to run society.
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>>87520491
Clearly being worthy doesn't entail much, if they prioritise meeting a quota. So there are a shitton of people who are "worthy". Your argument basically defeats itself.
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Hey Seat Admiral, can you draw Ipithymia uohing at a Solar?
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>>87520525
Don't think it explicitly supports that, but its a pretty compelling idea given most of human society has been run this way since forever.
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>>87520544
Exactly.
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>>87516353
>rather than Lunars following suite and interacting with the setting like the rest do, that they instead hang out in the inchoate and undefinable territories of the Wyld and, I dunno, punch raksha all day.
But Lunars don't interact with the setting.
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>>87520544
I think it's stretching it to assume that White Wolf didn't have that sort of message when they made the game.
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>>87520340
No two mortals are the same, either, but that doesn't mean that killing baby Hitler would necessarily change history.
>>
Who is arguing that Exalts don't care about Creation? Dace's Circle, 1E DB starting off with Roseblack leading a revolution because she saw the way the Empire was heading, that one drunk Tepet general getting shaken out of his retirement to take an active role in creation, etc. It's very obvious that Exalts caring about Creation is a thing.
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>>87520667
Just ignore that retard anon, the devs didn't make a game called Exalted just so they could shit on the exalts and call them bad.
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>>87520667
Or a troll or a 3e fag.
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>>87520811
Exalts care about Creation in 3e too.
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>>87520365
Creation has existed longer without Exalts than with them, and Contagion was explicitly what gave Balor's hordes a chance to invade Creation.

>>87520383
This.

>>87520427
Havesh is a man of talent, even if he's not exactly using his talents to the fullest.

>>87520525
Oh no, there might be an argument for Great Man theory accuately describing how history is shaped in the Creation, but it's perfectly clear that no edition supports the view that unlimited power with no accountability is good.
>>
>>87520855
>Creation has existed longer without Exalts than with them
It was also a hellscape where Primordials wrecked mass havoc as they pleased and humanity was the bottom bitch caveman slaves to the Dragon-Kings. Unless you like digging in the dirt and being sacrificed by lizard-men then the exalts explicitly make life better for humanity.
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>>87520641
Considering what kind of people wrote for white wolf back then, I am absolutely certain they did not intend to endorse authoritarianism. As "youngsters against THE MAN" was basically all they wrote.
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>>87520987
You're forgetting that those people are also attracted to authoritarianism as well, they just want their dictator to be in charge.
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>>87520855
>Havesh is a man of talent, even if he's not exactly using his talents to the fullest.
Havesh always did seem too petty in his ambitions and scope. He exalted while getting the shit beaten out of him, by an old dude he was trying to murder for some cash.
And the Unconquered Sun, King of Heaven, looked on that and figured "Yep, thats my guy".

Probably would make a much better Lunar character, just need to emphasize the desperate survival part of his backstory more.
Exalted writers always kinda struggled with coming up with suitably epic backstories.
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>>87521045
>Exalted writers always kinda struggled with coming up with suitably epic backstories.
It's because of the nature of the setting. The epic parts of the backstories will always come after someone exalts, so you're sort of stuck with what to do before that point.
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>>87516010
We had a conversation about this - they have a pretty minor role all things considered, compared to the rest of the options presented. Basically an after thought.
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>>87521034
No, you are thinking too much in modern zoomer terms. Old WW WoD stuff was born from genuine anti-establishment sentiments. They just didn't feel the need to whitewash "the good guys". Thats why Anarchs in Vampire tM, despite being the original intended protagonist perspective, are still dicks.
They had their own retarded takes, but the old punks and "left" were not the bootlickers of today.
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>>87521066
>Old WW WoD stuff was born from genuine anti-establishment sentiments.
Well then they abandoned that by the time they wrote Exalted.
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>>87520904
It's been a while since I've seen such a blatant and shameless goalpost shift.

>>87520987
I seem to recall a cople of dev statements from Grabowski - who was a neocon rather than the kind of leftist people seem to often picture when they talk about WW writers - that explicitly reject authoritarianism.
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>>87521045
Exalted characters don't have to have epic backstories. Caste Books don't struggle with anything, they accurately describe the the kinds of circumstances where people are Exalted.
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>>87521073
Quit being a pedantic retard, the point of Exalted is to show that the exalts are necessary and good for human society, and this point is carried through regardless of whether the alterative is the destruction of Creation or the enslavement and human sacrifice of mankind.
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>>87521071
Not really. The setting is full of dictators with absolute power, but having something exist in your setting doesn't equate endorsing it.
Thats a retarded mindset that leads to sanitized bullshit we have to deal with today.
You present people with a situation and ask them to figure it out, be that topple the tyrants and shatter their thrones or joining them. And acknowledging that the revolution of today becomes the dictators of tomorrow isn't saying its a good thing. It just is.
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>>87521110
>The setting is full of dictators with absolute power, but having something exist in your setting doesn't equate endorsing it.
Having something may not equate endorsing it, but saying "this is necessary for human society to survive and prosper" is a pretty strong endorsement.
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>>87521045
Exalted shouldn't force you to have an epic backstory. Being a feared elite hitman across an entire country while hiding from the deadly religion that would murder him if discovered is fine for someone who only Exalted a couple of years ago. Given time, he'll figure out that he could get even more luxury by supporting one of the Solar run country popping up and offer his talents to them.

>>87521066
>Thats why Anarchs in Vampire tM, despite being the original intended protagonist perspective, are still dicks.
They're dicks because leftwing nerds in the 90s got off on fantasizing that they were edgy and evil, rather than on fantasizing about being morally perfect and good. And even with that, Exalted is a game about how much better the world would be if you and your friends set up a theocratic oligarchy run by you.
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>>87521097
>Exalted characters don't have to have epic backstories.
"Back then" the given statement was that you receive Solar exaltation because you did something or were attempting something sufficiently epic that it drew the attention of the Unconquered Sun. They ditched that over time and explicitly for 3e because it was kinda limiting in some ways.
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>>87521126
>Exalted is a game about how much better the world would be if you and your friends set up a theocratic oligarchy run by you.
Not really. Its just a game where you can do that. It also features the fact that such a theocratic oligarchy already existed and turned into a decadent hellscape and the people who made it were hunted down and slaughtered in the end.
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>>87521185
>It also features the fact that such a theocratic oligarchy already existed and turned into a decadent hellscape and the people who made it were hunted down and slaughtered in the end.
And then replaced by another theocratic oligarchy, who are also necessary to defend Creation and ensure human prosperity. At no point does exalted ever posit the idea that mortals are capable of managing on their own.
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>>87521198
>And then replaced by another theocratic oligarchy, who are also necessary to defend Creation and ensure human prosperity.
The Shogunate was not a theocracy nor an oligarchy. And the only thing they defend it from ... was the remnant of the dudes they slaughtered for being such dicks in the first place.
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>>87521126
Its amazing how one can read the underage retard out of your post. You really have absolutely no clue.
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>>87521185
1e was the most hardcore in portraying the Realm as utterly evil. Grabrowski himself even complained about the authors leaning too hard into the Immaculates-as-Christians oppressing the innocent Hundred Gods Heretic pagans. And the old oligarchy was ruined by the great curse. Your fresh new ideas will do fine once you cure that.
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>>87521207
Being an autocracy isn't much better than being an oligarchy.

>And the only thing they defend it from
A Fair Folk invasion.
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>>87521218
The Great Curse is interesting because it's perhaps the strongest support for the idea that the writers support authoritarian dictatorship/oligarchy. If centralization of power in the hands of the few was supposed to be portrayed as a bad thing...why would the writers make it so that it only failed because of a supernatural curse and not because of human nature?
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>>87521219
Actually read the setting books once before continuing to discuss the setting. Balors invasion didn't just randomly happen, it was because of the Contagion and two Deathlords inviting him.
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>>87521244
And if those deathlords hadn't existed as solars once, humanity would still be slaves under the Dragon-Kings.
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>>87521235
Because they have a hard-on for mechanically enforcing angsting over your terrible cursed nature. See: the Beast, Rage and Paradox.
Its a statement of them being angsty dipshits.
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>>87521249
Okay and where does it portray that as better or worse? The war against the primordials kickstarted a downward spiral that leaves Creation explicitly lesser and lesser over time.
Thats literally the whole point about the constant "overthrow, get overthrown" theme of Exalted, that its destroying the world.
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>>87521266
Are you honestly going to suggest that White Wolf thinks mass enslavement and human sacrifice is a good thing?
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>>87521118
Having something be necessary for human society to survive and prosper in a fantasy setting carved out of raw chaos, where an infinite number of things want to rip it apart is quite different from implying its the same way in reality.

TRPGs exist to be played. If people wanted to role-play reality, they'd go outside.
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>>87521293
That's nice and all but it ignores the Great Curse. The writers deliberately chose to put in the Great Curse even though it wasn't even necessary, it would've been completely believable for a large section of the population that a handful of unelected oligarchs ruling all of Creation would become corrupt and abusive with their power, but they didn't want to say that, so instead they put in the Great Curse to push the blame onto something else. "Oh, the unelected power in the hands of the few is great, it's only this Great Curse that fucked everything up".
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>>87521290
I'm saying the setting having stuff in it, which is the logical consequences of other stuff, is not a political endorsement or statement. Its supposed to make you explore a concept.
You suffer the brainrot of the tumblrites where you think everything needs to be a statment and a singular intended answer.
Exalted is a world in an age of glories that is becoming lesser and lesser over time. That is the original intend as it was supposed to ultimately lead into the WoD. The age of the primordials was a greater and more perfect creation. That has nothing to do with it being better for everyone in it and that, in itself, is a point worth thinking about.
But of course you can't think about shit.
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>>87521045
Havesh was before the lorecreep, and one night was exalted just before being gang raped by pirates
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>>87521219
>Being an autocracy isn't much better than being an oligarchy.

What's going to satisfy you? A full democratic republic, complete with an expy US-constitution and redneck shouting "Murica. Fuck yeah!"?

The number of qualifying nations before the renaissance in our world is around zero. Even the Greeks and Romans were more oligarch than true democracy.
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>>87521318
>The writers deliberately chose to put in the Great Curse even though it wasn't even necessary
It was necessary because it emulates the melancholy of Achilles and the rage of Hercules. The epic heroes exalted is trying to evoke.
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>>87521339
>It was necessary because it emulates the melancholy of Achilles and the rage of Hercules
We already have something for that. It's called "roleplaying your character". Furthermore, they didn't need to make it an in-setting thing, if they really wanted to force it on the players they could've implemented it in the mechanics only but then said it was merely representative of those sorts of things. Instead they deliberately made it an actual curse in the setting and then made it the cause of the Solar's downfall.
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>>87521338
There are parts of exalted that are in full-on renaissance tech mode, complete with steam power and airships.
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>>87521318

Other anon already answered this. They were ripping off WoD hard when they made Exalted. oWoD's Hunger became Exalted's Limit.

But you're right, it's a completely unnecessary mechanic, added only for feature-parity with their other gamelines.
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>>87521372
>We already have something for that. It's called "roleplaying your character".
And yet, D&D would be greatly improved by the addition of the Great Curse mechanics we currently have, trash as they are. Creating or roleplaying flawed characters is not something players will always naturally do across all skill levels.
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>>87521105
That's not even remotely the point of the Exalted.

>>87521169
I remember that epic backstory thing as more 2E than 1E thing, because it wasn't really emphasized in the 1E core and was obviously not a thing at all by tge time Caste Books were written.

>>87521235
The Great Curse is there so you won't have fun wrong, not for any other reason. If it's tge strongest support for the writers supporting authoritarianisn, then that idea is unsupported indeed.
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>>87521387
That's called "getting better players"
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>>87521393
>The Great Curse is there so you won't have fun wrong, not for any other reason.
If that were true it'd be a purely mechanical thing. It's not though, it's in the lore as well.

>That's not even remotely the point of the Exalted
Unless you like the idea of being a primitive slave to the dragon-kings then it is the point of exalted.
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>>87521397
Players can't start great and bad players improve, or have varying levels in various ttrpg-relevant skills.

Also, we're already doing that. Exalted's single intended setting and hefty lore backing it, plus it's often arcane mechanics and janky 'thou must create flawed characters' ideals intended to create better players, filter out a lot of weaker players.
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>>87521372
Yes, Great Curse was indeed a clumsy, heavy-handed and unnecessary attempt at enforcing a specific way of playing your character. The reasoning behind it being bad and dumb doesn't mean we should make up stories where that reasoning doesn't exist.
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>>87521430
You are once again ignoring that the Great Curse exists in the lore too. If it was solely to make the players act a certain way it would only exist mechanically.
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>>87521447
And you're acting like the Exalted writers had some grand plan about using a TTRPG as a canvas on which to make some point about the human condition, instead of just randomly slapping together ideas they thought sounded good.

Cursed by the deposed creators of the world to go mad and destroy the world? Sounds epic, chuck it the pot.
>>
Funny how, despite claiming to incentive role-playing instead of roll-playing, WW will put numbers/mechanics on player/ST interactions.

One new Sidereal charm is literally, "ask the ST to skip a boring scene".
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>>87521500
We’re talking about White Wolf, one of the more activist RPG devs out there, it’s safe to say they probably were deliberate with their choices on how to portray power.
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>>87521510
Say what you will about Facebook, it has a good thing going with the laugh react.
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>>87521447
The Beast and all the others also exist in the lore. The lore exists to justify the mechanic and the mechanic is a enforcement of the idea the writers had of how the characters "should" be played.
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>>87521542
>The lore exists to justify the mechanic
So people go around talking about dots then? One person might talk to another person about how he has 5 dots of willpower, explicitly using the term “dots” to explain it? Because otherwise that reasoning is absolutely retarded. You can have mechanical systems for abstract ideas. The Limit mechanic could’ve just been a mechanical system for the abstract idea of exalted emotions. It didn’t have to be an in-lore actual curse, but they deliberately put it in the game so it’s safe to assume it’s in the fucking game for a reason.
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>>87521502
I absolute loathe this "new" trend where RPG writers feel like they have the right to blatantly interfere on behalf of the player against the ST in the rulesbooks.
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>>87521592
I genuinly can't tell if these retard takes are you being butthurt and grasping for straws or if you have an actual mental handicap.
The actual mechanics of the Great Curse, the limit points etc. are also not in the lore. So your comparison doesn't even begin to make sense.
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>>87521609
>The actual mechanics of the Great Curse, the limit points etc. are also not in the lore
Yes retard, it’s a mechanical system to show an abstract idea. That idea being an explicit curse which they put into the setting. It’s not a representation of exalted emotional states or just a way to make Achilles in his tent moments happen. They made it a curse within the lore for a reason.
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>>87521502
>"But you've been crippled, dismembered, paralysed and punched a hundred miles away by a Hekatonkhiere! You're falling into the Mouth of Oblivion! You're blind, broken in will and spirit, curse to never heal your wounds by the curses of the Ebon Dragon!"
>"It doesn't matter, ST. As I breathe I WILL catch a big fish"
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>>87521447
No, explaining mechanics with lore reasons doesn't imply that thee's some greater statement behind it all. We know why the Great Cyrse exists, and the reason isn't what you imagine.
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>>87521654
You were the pne who came with the mechanical system comparison you mongo.
>or just a way to make Achilles in his tent moments happen
That is literally the reason the writers of 1e gave for what the great curse is there for.
>They made it a curse within the lore for a reason.
Its a curse because its obviously a bad thing and they did it for the numerously mentioned reason of "enforced roleplay" being a WW staple. They wanted people to act out achilles in his tent, so they put the curse in to make people avt that way and to explain why all the Solars get achilles in his tent moments, since its something that happens IC. That is literally, by the writers own statement, the exact and only reason it exists.
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>>87521709
See you have things completely backwards. You don’t explain mechanics with lore, you explain lore with mechanics. Nobody needs to be told what willpower is, you don’t need a lore dump for why willpower exists, all you need is a mechanical system that explains how willpower is measured through dots using the rules of the game.
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>>87521723
>That is literally the reason the writers of 1e gave for what the great curse is there for.
For the mechanics yes, but not for the lore. They could’ve implemented limit without the Great Curse and nobody would’ve questioned it. They deliberately put the Great Curse in there for a reason. It’s utterly redundant otherwise.
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>>87521750
>They could’ve implemented limit without the Great Curse and nobody would’ve questioned
Of course they would have fucking questioned how to explain IC why characters go randomly sulk once in a while.
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>>87521759
>Of course they would have fucking questioned how to explain IC why characters go randomly sulk once in a while.
Put in a one sentence side blurb by the mechanic that says “this is to represent Achilles in his tent moments”. The end. Super easy, saves everyone time, but nope, they instead deliberately chose the long and complicated route with the Great Curse for a reason.
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>>87521750
>itt no-gametards struggling with the idea that actions in a rpg are not just dice rolls
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>>87521769
This does not explain why it happens IC, why is your reading comprehension so abysmal?
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>>87521776
I am aware of this, hence why the Great Curse exists in lore and not just as mechanics. It’s there to represent more than just Achilles in his tent moments.
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>>87521782
Yes it does, idiot. But since you’re a moron I’ll extend it to two whole sentences. “This mechanic represents the emotional state of the exalt. It is there to play out Achilles in his tent moments.”

You don’t need a supernatural curse to explain that, unless you apply that logic to fucking everything else.
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>>87521786
No, its literally there for exactly that and because the characters need a reason why they act that way.
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>>87521811
>because the characters need a reason why they act that way.
What was the Great Curse that caused Achilles to mope in his tent?
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>>87521797
>makkng a whole mechanic to simulate emotional states is somejow easier than the simple limit system
I realise you are completly retarded but come on. The favt that it is THE EXACT SAME as WoD mechanics should clue you in why it exists. Hint: Not your retarded headcanon
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>>87521819
Achilles is one dude, there is difference if you make every character prone to moping.
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>>87521826
The limit system IS the mechanic you fucking idiot. The lore explanation FOR that mechanic can be simplified down to two sentences.
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>>87521836
>there is difference if you make every character prone to moping.
You’re not supposed to RP every single example of limit break being moping.
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>>87521837
The limit system doesn't track emotional states, that explanation wouldn't work and more importantly would be a different kind of mechanic that doesn't allow for "oh no, I'm suffering because of my intrinsic nature" ala, aforementioned Beast or Paradox.
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>>87521769
Yes, they did overcomplicate it. I don't think anyone here disagrees with you on that. Trying to find some great insights in WW writers going with an overcomplicated explanation instead of the simpler one is pretty silly, though. Sometimes mistakes are just mistakes and bad choices just bad choices.

>>87521797
And the reason for Exalts behaving luje this is...? What if a player has a more emotionally stable character in mind? Why do only Exalts behave like this? If mortals also behave like this, how has tge setting been shaped by this widespread emotional and behavioral quirk?
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>>87521850
Exalted isn’t about moping around complaining that you’re an exalt, being an exalt is a straight up upgrade from being a mortal, there’s nothing to mope about. It’s about being awesome and doing god-king shit.
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>>87521797
>You don’t need a supernatural curse to explain that
Possibly true, but thats what they did.
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>>87521860
>What if a player has a more emotionally stable character in mind?
Then maybe the writers shouldn’t feel the need to force the players to RP their characters a certain way.
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>>87521819
Look, anon, Achilles was a tard, and 1E writers wanted a better sounding explanation for Limit than "your character is a tard by the way, that's the rules". There's nothing more to the Great Curse than that.
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>>87521880
Yes, and they did that for a reason. Why would curing the Great Curse even be a thing if there wasn’t the hope that once it is cured you can finally have your benevolent dictatorship?
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>>87521875
Struggling with the great curse and the demands of your virtues etc absolutely is what Exalted is "supposed" to be about. That no one plays it like that is a completly different matter.
Just like Vampire tM is supposed to about the loss of humanity and most played it as Blade or Hellsing anyway.
That the writers failed to accomplish what the tried, doesn't show the didn't try it.
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>>87521908
Then why is the tone so fucking optimistic? “Dare to be badass” is not the sort of shit that encouraged moping.
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>>87521905
>Why would curing the Great Curse even be a thing if there wasn’t the hope that once it is cured you can finally have your benevolent dictatorship?
Its not really a thing beyond ... its a curse and curses can be lifted in theory. Abysalls get that bit in one sentence, but thats just trying to incentive the redemption arc.
The Unconquered Sun doesn't suffer a curse and he is still a useless layabout. There is nothing suggesting everything would be fine without the great curse.
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>>87521923
The Odyssey is also not exactly a depressive tale, but it still has stuff like that in it. Its an element in the story, among many others.
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>>87521923
Why would occassional moping stop you from being a badass? Its just a weakness.
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>>87521926
>The Unconquered Sun doesn't suffer a curse and he is still a useless layabout.
He’s literally only a useless layabout because his exalts suffered from the curse though.
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>>87521950
Not really. He allegedly turned his gaze from Creation because of their degeneracy.. instead of fixing their shit. Its pretty clear Conky isn't involved much because of his addiction to the Games of Divinity.
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>>87521950
Solars are lacking a parental authority figure, because the Unconquered Sun is a crack addict. That they fucked up so much is both partially his fault and doesn't justify why he abandoned creation as a whole.
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>>87521973
Yeah but he still participated in the defense and aid of Creation before the Solars acted evil because of the Great Curse, he only became super addicted to the games after they acted evil because of the curse. The Curse is pretty much the singular thing that’s fucked everything up,
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>>87521986
Most Solars would’ve still had mortal parents to raise them, that’s not why they acted evil, it was because of the great curse.
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>>87521908
The great curse was literally added during a playtest.
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>>87521994
I fail to see how "my chosen have become the punchline of an Aristocrats joke" can plausibly be used as reason for why he abandoned uis duties as creations border patrol. Especially after those guys were dead.
Turning his face from Creation was always an excuse to play more divine Civ3
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>>87522025
>I fail to see how "my chosen have become the punchline of an Aristocrats joke" can plausibly be used as reason for why he abandoned uis duties as creations border patrol. Especially after those guys were dead.
Because he put his very essence into humanity and trusted them with his power to rule over Creation and they betrayed him by acting evil (he didn’t know that they only acted evil cause of a curse) so he wiped his hands of the matter and is leaving humanity to fend for themselves since they didn’t behave in a righteous manner. Again, he assumed that humanity is evil and acted in that manner because of their nature, he had no idea that the curse was the only reason they behaved in that manner.
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>>87522049
A lot more things than humanity live in Creation he is responsible for.
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>>87522067
Like 99% of the Dragon-Kings are dead
>>
Its kinda cute how badly anon wants to belief there is some well thought out plan and reason behind every setting element.
Like a child trying to understand his parents aren't infallible and WW just like their mandated suffering roleplay elements.
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>>87522091
And all the terrestrial gods, who's king he is. And the mountain folk, and the elementals and all the other non-human races.
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>>87522100
Yes, and the great curse kinda doesn't exist in universe.
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>>87522049
>and they
Humanity deserves to die, because 300 dudes he empowered abused and fucked with them?
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>>87522116
He’s the Unconquered SUN. His purview is to make sure the sun remains in the sky. As long as it’s still up there, he’s doing his job.
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>>87522139
>Yes, and the great curse kinda doesn't exist in universe.
It can literally be cured

>>87522140
300 if the best, most worthy humans he could find and exalt…still turned out to be evil (only because of the Great Curse but he doesn’t know that part).
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>>87522142
Isn't his incestuous daughter who does it?
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>>87522142
>His purview is to make sure the sun remains in the sky.
No, his job is to defend Creation from outside threats.
That was the purpose he was made for and thats the task he took on when he declared himself the KING of Gods.
The sun stays afloat just fine without him, in fact.
He isn't even flying it anymore right now.
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>>87522149
>300 if the best, most worthy humans he could find and exalt…still turned out to be evil (only because of the Great Curse but he doesn’t know that part).
Logically that indicates more his error in judgement. And still doesn't tell me why everyone else deserves to burn with them.
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>>87522149
I meant the culpability and other narrative dissonancies.

>300 if the best, most worthy humans he could find and exalt…still turned out to be evil (only because of the Great Curse but he doesn’t know that part).
It is on Conky, he isn't Luna, but he has a really bad taste for chosen.
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>>87522194
>And still doesn't tell me why everyone else deserves to burn with them.
The rest of humanity went along with the Solars atrocities
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>>87522229
Did they have a say?
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>>87522152
I don't remember her being incestous, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was.
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>>87522229
They literally didn't have a choice and were its primary victims. Except for the other exalted, who did do something about it.
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>>87522194
I think he knows something is up if only because he created a mechanism to redeem Abyssals and they no longer suffer from the Great Curse.

How do you cure something you don't even know about? Obviously he's aware of it.
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>>87522242
>>87522266
We never once hear of any mortal uprisings against the Solars. All evidence suggests they were complicit.
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>>87522254
It was a joke, in 2e, Nysela was in love with him.
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>>87522279
Leaving aside the mindrape powers he gave his chosen to prevent that sort of thing, we know rebellions were a concern to the Solar Deliberative from the 1st Age books in 2e.
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>>87522315
>we know rebellions
Explicitly rebellions?
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>>87522315
>>87522321
*Explicitly mortal rebellions?
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>>87521339
>it was necessary for every character to have this even though one instance was a god literally inflicting a Psyche effect and the other is an undesireable limit break in a roleplay setting because you're just sitting around
every time this retarded conversation comes up it just proves to me that no one actually plays the game.
>>
>>87522328
Tbf the Great Curse is very similar to Hercules for that reason. It’s not the exalts fault, it’s literally a Primordial inflicting a mental status effect on them. It absolves the exalts of their guilt,
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>>87522328
What do you mean? No one is saying thats a good reason, but it is the reason for why the Great Curse and Limit are a thing.
>>
I have never had a WW game make players play their characters as “falling” because of a mechanic.

People already playing sociopaths played it up, while people that didn’t want to mainly used the opportunity to act silly.

Mandate mechanics suck.
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>>87522321
Who cares? Again, HE gave his Chosen mindcontrol powers to make people obedient. He hardly can complain if they work.
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>>87522344
But the writing portrays it as being the Exalt fault.
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>>87522376
The Great Curse is mostly there so that if your players do fuck up they can just blame it on the Great Curse. The end game of exalted is pretty much just to fox the curse, once the curse is cured then it’s nothing but smooth sailing for all of Creation from then on.
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>>87522389
Not really. Limit break is something completely out of the exalts control, it’s something that’s inflicted on them, not by them.
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>>87522394
Literally the opposite of truth.
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>>87522377
The Solars don’t have mind control powers, they’re just charismatic and convincing, you can no more use the argument that they mind controlled mortals into obedience than you could use that excuse with Hitler or Stalin.
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>>87522376
I had that plenty in Vampire, because its somewhat more common. But in Exalted 90% of "great curse" moments are player choice. People like the idea of getting to act out with some justification, while frenzy infringed too much on player agency.
The Great Curse is basically dumb and pointless and especially in 3e only around as legacy feature. Essence Fever could wholly incorporate the useful parts.
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>>87522403
>Great Curse is cured
>UCS turns back to Creation
>A second Solar Deliberative is set up but without the Great Curse that caused them to commit atrocities and get overthrow
>Everyone lives happily ever after
>>
>>87522407
Sorcery, Psyche effects.
Also Hitler and Stalin were not blessed by god with the ability to increase their personal charisma and be more convincing at-will with supernatural powers that others don't have.
I get what you are trying to say about how Charms work, but its just untrue that they don't have mindcontrol.
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>>87522413
>>87522399
Exactly, Grabowski accidentally gave Solars, the perfect scapegoat
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>>87522421
Not sure if retarded, or a secondary.
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>>87522442
Explain how I'm wrong then. The First Age was described as a utopia beyond compare that was only ruined because of the Great Curse driving the Solars to madness. No Great Curse = No ruin.
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>>87522410
Vampire is also the most sensitive with craziness inducing effects. It and Werewolf take the most agency away from players on a trigger.
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>>87522399
It’s still your fault that your limit break is Berserk Anger instead of Tears of Compassion.
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>>87522466
Tears of compassion is itself a form of debilitating madness, it doesn’t matter in the end
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>>87522452
It is a retard.
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>>87522470
Many societies hold people accountable for particularly awful crimes we do while involuntarily held in debilitating fits of madness. Absolute Liability is what I think it's called?

Just because a legal loophole means something's not illegal where you live doesn't mean that it's a moral loophole. Yes, a Limit Break is a debilitating psychotic break, no, Limit and madness are not unique to Exalted and yes, often characters are and should be held accountable for what they did while held in the grip of madness.
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>>87523220
>yes, often characters are and should be held accountable for what they did while held in the grip of madness.
Except it’s not just some “grip of madness”, it’s literally a form of mind control imposed upon them by the Primordials
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>>87523322
It's really not. I mean, I guess you could say that they took crazy pills, but it's not mind control. The Primordials don't have any control over what the Great Curse does. They started it, but they aren't mind controlling anybody with it.
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>>87523370
If someone periodically forceful injects you with drugs that turn you into a psychotic animal you’re not culpable for the crimes committed while under such a state. It’s like asking why the people enthralled under a Heart-Eater don’t just say no.
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>>87523392
>If someone periodically forceful injects you with drugs that turn you into a psychotic animal you’re not culpable for the crimes committed while under such a state.
That's not an accurate analogy to what's happening, though. The Primordials/Yozi aren't actively involved in the Great Curse anymore. You could say that they hit the Exalted over the head with a shovel a couple decades ago and the Exalted got brain damage from it that makes them go temporarily crazy when they were going to have a breakdown anyway, but the Primordials aren't doing anything anymore. The way the Exalted are acting in regards to their madness now is all their fault - if you knew you went crazy over time, regardless of whether you knew it was because you'd been hit over the head a decade ago, then it is up to you to have taken precautions against having a psychotic break that has you start killing people. You're still morally culpable for your own actions, especially the ones that are happening when you're not going crazy which could be used to temper your wilder impulses or otherwise seek help, none of which the Exalted reportedly have done.
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>>87523460
>when they were going to have a breakdown anyway
There is no reason to assume the exalts were going to have a breakdown anyways. The Great Curse has always been presented as causing madness, not merely accelerating it.
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>>87523487
We have rules for mortal Limit. They still take Limit, and it blows their minds up into babbling and catatonia instead of making them go sparky-mad.
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>>87523501
That just means that the exalts handle Limit much better
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>>87523549
Yes. Mechanically, the Great Curse is a buff. It's the way people react long-term and to a lesser extent the increased pace Limit accrues that are bad, but the short-term consequences are better, especially when comparing the base effect of limit break to a combat-relevant Limit Break like Red Rage of Compassion in combat situations.

The long-term reactions to Limit, though not Limit itself, were foreseen by the Exalted. That they did not take measures to mitigate their madness prior to or between episodes was a moral failing.
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>>87523664
New thread



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