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Which kind of orc do you prefer: evil monster or noble savage?
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>>87482353
Regular living being who can make his own choices but is from a very war-like culture
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>>87482353
Neither, I make them the Feudal Japan expy.
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>>87482353
Decadent latter era Rome expy.
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A noble monster
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blah blah racism blah blah imperialism blah blah

It's still fun to have an evil race. Some people want to think about ethical considerations and the other side of every conflict. Some people just want to kill bad guys without worrying too much about it.
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>>87482436
You can kill bad people without caring perfectly fine people do it irl
But an entire race being evil for no reason is dumb
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>>87482353
I choose a different answer than the two offered ones, because I am a special boy and need 4chan to know it.
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>>87482353
Dead
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>>87482453
>But an entire race being evil for no reason is dumb

Sure, but it's fun. We do stupider things in games.
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>>87482453
talk to Tolkien
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>>87482538
I guess but then they should be cartoonishly evil or at least have some reason!
Like the drow, they are smart, do intrigue, live in a ton of places, but you wanna tell me they're all evil? They got an evil gene or something
Meanwhile the Dark Eldar I get, they're evil because of slaanesh and they live in a single society, makes sense
Ya feel me
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None at all, I find orcs utterly boring in design and general traits.
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>>87482453
Tolkien, Robert E Howard, H G Wells, David Gemmel, Micheal Morcock and William Forstchen disagree with you. Try to read more dude, it might give you.a wider experience of the nature of things outside of 21st century politics.
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An evil savage usually, I like the enemies I put in to be dangerously competent, even if technologically backwards sometimes.
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I like them as nomads and northern raiders both. Whether they are noble or evil depends on if they are raiding you, or your enemies.
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>>87482559
Tolkein pretty notoriously had multiple reasons why the orcs were evil, and I think only one of them was 'they just are', which he notably disliked as a reason.
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Orcs are big burly humanoids that live in abandoned dilapidated houses and eat those who pass too close. They're not green, they don't breed like rabbits, they're not inherently evil and they are not noble savages. Picrel is what i roughly envision them as
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Cockney fungal destructive dullards

They’re obviously Scot-English white trash so I don’t have to hear from SJWs about them being black, they’re fungal so I don’t have to hear about it being racist to make them inherently evil, players can beat on them with a clear conscience, and I have a funny voice to do that makes them clear what they are when they’re talking
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>>87482774
>my orcs are ogres
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>>87482353
Noble savage I guess. I pull from warcraft. The vast majority of them want to go ungabunga like Warsong or Blackrock but there's some that are more chill like Frostwolves.
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>>87482802
to be fair if you’re trying to de-Tolkienfy your mythos orcs weren’t really distinct from ogres prior to him, as the Italian word for ogre is “orco” and that’s probably where they come from as a concept
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>>87482353
Evil monster
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>>87482453
There are savage animals. Why can't there be humanoids? Cannibal tribes exist irl
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>>87482353
Just because a savage monster considers itself noble, does not make it noble or any less of a monster.
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>>87482618
>but then they should be cartoonishly evil
But that's retarded? Why can't they just be xenophobic?
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>>87482353
I prefer them with pig faces.
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>>87482453
>You can kill bad people without caring perfectly fine people do it irl
Define bad people, objectively, without any subjectivity. If you can't do that, then you're just as bad as a serial killer.
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>>87482559
Tolkien is the faggot retard who poisoned the fantasy genre and sapped any and all originality out of it for all time.
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>>87482941
NTA but I'm absolutely confident you are a bad person.
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>>87482453
It's fantasy, theiy're evil because reasons (genetically hardwired to behave in a specific manner, cursed, spawned by demons, etc... Make your pick)
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>>87482946
extremely (perhaps even dangerously) based opinion
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>>87482353
Both. They're the Mongol horde. Cunning, practical, and undeniably skilled as anyone who spends their entire life fighting would be. If you impress them, you might be treated as an equal. If you make a good point, they might listen to you. If you tick off one of their superstitious boxes, they might be wary of you. If you show weakness, they will exploit it ruthlessly. But they know what they want, and you're not going to trick them out of that belief. And what they want is undeniably evil, because they want to conquer the world and kill their enemies in horrible ways, for fun. They might slaughter a city because they consider it the practical thing to do, or because the inhabitants were too defiant.
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>>87482960
Again, define bad. If you can't define a word without using your subjective opinion, then you can't go around using it as a judge of character.
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>>87482559
Tolkien actually opposed the “evil race is evil because it’s just their nature” schtick.
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>>87482363
>humans but like the violent kind of humans
They have to be more savage than that. Something innate that push them to be exceptionally violent.
Why would you make races different physically but not mentally?
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>>87482363
FPBP and based.

>>87482669
Tolkien himself had an issue with the idea of orcs being irredeemably evil. It’s possible that if he’d lived longer he might have done something to show a, if not heroic Orc, then at least one who wasn’t evil.

Howard would have probably been the first to tell you that his stories were dumb fun. Although even then I struggle to think of any “evil race” in his works, or at least in the Conan stories he wrote. He has the occasional evil society, but for example he doesn’t call every Stygian evil or every Pict evil or anything.
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>>87483893
Depends entirely on whether players think they're cool and want to play as or relate to characters of that race. Like a lot of typical Fantasy races Orcs have undergone a shift from pure monster race to part-time player race, and perception of them has mellowed along with it. They have become more anthropomorphized.

Except for WH40K Orks. Because everyone who likes them likes them because they are unapologetically violent yobs. But it bears mentioning they are only that because they were based on a real social subgroup to begin with.
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>>87482353
1/2

Orcs are the product of a generations-long war against the other races. Unfortunately, they haven’t realized that they’ve lost this war. Why the war starts is simple: orcs are, as a race, stupid, ugly, and weak willed, but very strong. Being stupid, ugly and weak willed means that other races tend to always get the upper hand on them and tend to always get the better end of any deal, and other races also tend to not want Orcs around. Orc goods are always a little worse than goods produced by other races, and orcs are generally a little rowdier and less pleasant to be around.

At some point the orcs realize that they are much better in battle than other races, and they decide to fight for a little respect and fair treatment. Then the war is on. The only problem is that orcs win battles, but lose wars. Other races have natural advantages or just greater intelligence, so any war tends to go badly for the orcs in the long run. Powerful melee combat ability doesn’t mean much when elves attack from the bushes with longbows and then run way and all the races have superior battle plans and ability to lead their troops.

Once the war has been decisively won, the orcs are driven out of their lands and pushed into some badland, hinterland, or some other undesirable terrain far away from trade routes and civilization and usually full of monsters. The other races then go back to their lives, but here’s the trick: the orcs don’t. As far as the orcs are concerned, the war is still on because the orcs are still stuck in the worst land in their area, scraping by in the wilderness with minimal natural resources and almost no access to the products of civilization like arable farmlands, centuries-old cities, and trade goods like the products of skilled craftsmen from other lands (which can include magic items).
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>>87483956
2/2

All of orc culture comes back to this issue. Orcs are constantly warring on other races not out of need for violence or evil inclinations, but because they are fighting for their survival as a race in lands considered undesirable by every other major race. Orc raids are not only for food and booty, but for all the things that orc culture cannot produce like tools and weapons. Without these things they cannot survive in the wilderness, and they cannot produce them in the wilderness living as nomads who hunt and gather.

Orc hordes are not an indication of warlike racial tendencies, but of population issues. Once the orcish population in the badlands grows too large to be supportable, they must conquer new lands or else face death by famine and disease. Hordes are formed of "excess" young males that are sent off to carve out new lands or die trying... both results ease the burden on the few resources in the badlands.

The fact that orcs are constantly in a war footing means that they easily offend other races with their tactics. Rather than fight elven guerilla fighters who sap their resources and manpower, they’ll burn the forest down, and rather than fight dwarves in their millennia-old and heavily entrenched deepnesses filled with traps, the orcs will collapse the tunnels and dig the booty out of the rubble. The fact that most races fight defensively means that orcs only gain tactical advantage by being extremely offensively-minded. The fact that orcs do not have supplies coming from the badlands means that while they have no supply trains to cut, they must conduct blitzkrieg-style war or face starvation, and they cannot afford to hold troops in reserve. They often just don’t have the resources needed to conduct honorable or civilized war, and their attacks seldom have finesse or timing on their side, meaning that they only win battles through overwhelming force.
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>>87482453
1 - Orcs aren't humans. They aren't an ethnicity of humans. They are alien creatures in a fantasy setting.
2 - An entire race of evil sentient beings is fine because magic, faeries, unicorns, demons, angels, and every other "dumb" fantasy trope is likely existing as well. Otherwise it isn't fantasy.

All that said, I'm fine with "evil thugs" and "noble savages" both, depending on the setting. What I want is a clear distinction as to what orcs offer that other humans don't, even if it's just "you can kill these guys and not feel bad about it, because they're all tainted by demons and shit".
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>>87482559
Even Tolkien didn't believe that orcs were incapable of being good.
There were no good orcs, but it's not something that he considered out of the question.
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>>87482941
>Define bad people, objectively, without any subjectivity.
Fascists and Christian-coded religious zealots, clearly. If you want a vision of the future, imagine a Trump Hat being stepped on to the warbling glee of pink-haired blobs. Forever.
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>>87482353
They're a different species from humans.
Their species extremely aggressive and territorial, so they're instinctually quicker to violence. They'll almost always choose fight over flight.
But in the end, they are sentient and still have free will. They can be good and they can be civilized if they choose to be, but they'll still be plagued by their instincts.
Combat sports are very popular in civilized orc societies because they still need an outlet for their aggression.
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>>87482353
Subterranean race of animalistic humanoids that despise the sun and anyone who lives on the surface.
Some say they are unnatural beings spawned from within the Earth itself. Others that they are a race older than the elves and were driven into the darkness when they angered the gods.
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>>87484924
What the hell are you on anon, this sentence isn’t real.
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>>87485072
Anon was asking for what counts as "objectively bad people" to modern American sensibilities, and the answer to that is, "Nazis and Christians." To an American, punching a Nazi or punching a Trans-hating Christian is not just morally correct, it's righteous. That's why the only Designated Bad Guys in American Fantasy are either going to be Nazi-Coded or Christian-Coded.
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>>87485193
Meds.
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>>87485193
>Nazis and Christians

Nazis, sure, obviously, but Christians are still 63% of modern America. Even ultra-liberal California is still about 60% Christian, and ultra-liberal Massachusetts is about 70% Christian.

It's not "Christians" who are the bad guys, it's "Christian extremists".

>or punching a Trans-hating Christian
Well, yeah. That's a Christian extremist.
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>>87482453
>race being evil for no reason
Are sharks evil? Are hungry bears evil?is Black mold evil? Are cats evil when they Play with dying prey?
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>>87482353
A bit of both. It's exciting when you don't know what kind of orc you're dealing with.
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>>87486743
None of those things are sapient, and cats playing with their prey isn't strictly sadism in particular. Cats are fairly delicate creatures when compares to other animals of similar size (say, a small dog). They play with their prey to tire them out so that they can't fight back and won't run the risk of harming the cat when it goes for the kill. But even then the cat can't choose to act differently from what it is because, again, not sapient.
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>>87482838
I'm italian and where i come from orcs and ogres are the same thing
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>>87482363
That's stupid. Orcs, much like elves and dwarfs, should not be treated as a people. They should not have culture in the same way as humans do.
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>>87486871

By that definition, humans aren't sapient either. Whatever you do, you're still acting as a human would
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>>87487018
It makes zero sense for a largely human looking creature to not be human-like in the ways that matter. Alien/bestial shit is what full on beasts/pig monsters are for.
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>>87482353
My favorite is noble savage whose idea of nobility does not preclude looting and pillaging the lands of those weaker than them.
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Both have merit, and I actually prefer either avenue to lean into the corresponding aesthetic. Tolkien, who took the various "unkind" forms of little/hidden people from folklore and produced the goblin and orc in popular culture described these literary creations as bent, smallish, variously sallow or dark or yellow-complected. This, to me, evokes the callous cruelty and bullying nature (which, on its other face, is a creature itself prone to being bullied by callous and cruel forces that are stronger than it) of a creature that can be used as a setpiece enemy, a horde of opponents our heroes can slaughter without much second thought. Tolkien's reservations and second thoughts about the moral status of his orcs and goblins is a fascinating topic, but one we should sideboard in this conversation.
Our big green tusk-hulks a la Metzen (and others) are a great visual representation of a "noble savage", even if Games Workshop's take on the concept (arguably the most prominent example of the green tusker, alongside what Metzen designed for Blizzard) as a whole lands somewhere adjacent to the former "cruel badguy" orc. But you've got to be careful to do "noble savage" right, or it either just becomes something embarrassing and shallow like the aliens from Avatar, or something indistinguishable from a setpiece villain. Our only experience in reality of sentient beings with culture is the diversity of human society around the world and throughout history. With this stock of reference, we can see populations that routinely mount wars of aggression against their neighbours in competition for resources or for more abstract reasons (religious etc), all while loving their families, enjoying the company of friends, engaging in creative pursuits, and all the other things we ourselves within our current cultural milieu feel make life worthwhile.
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>>87487055
wow it's like your the only person here who actually thought "Maybe these human-like people are probably just like fucking people"
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>>87487018
Then you should have sent in Undead.
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>>87482941
Jews
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>>87482946
Tolkien made great works that are well loved for good reason, but their numerous derivatives are unimaginative at best and utter shit in most cases. He's basically the Alan Moore of fantasy.
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>>87482398
>>87482378
Actually worse than either option presented
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>>87482453
I mean that describes Germans
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>>87482353
Boisterously evil.
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>>87482353
Evil monster
>>87482363
Lame wowshit
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>>87487388
>He's basically the Alan Moore of fantasy.
Except that Alan Moore is crap.
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Muscular green women with tusks but otherwise classically attractive feminine faces who have huge tits and asses. Yes even the “male”s.
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>>87487594
The lamest
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>>87486871
If a shark gained sentience, do you think it could function in human society? This is how I think of orcs. Their brains are not wired like human brains. They don't have the same social instincts.

Elves, dwarves, and halflings have the same social instincts. Show a healthy, sane human a child in distress, and their instinct is to help the child. Show the same human child to an elf, dwarf, etc. and their instinct is also to help the child, and the same applies in reverse -- a human finds an elf baby in a basket in the woods, the human thinks "Geez, I should help this baby, it's in danger." This is what unites humans and demihumans, this shared "humanity."

An orc? He sees a snack that makes annoying noises. He's not capable of comprehending that human (and demihuman) urge to protect the weak and vulnerable. He can grasp the *utility* of children and the need to not eat them so they can grow up to be soldiers and workers, but that's not empathy or sympathy, and they can't extend it to other races children. The orc can understand that the human has strange emotions about the baby and doesn't want to eat it or see it eaten, but he can only comprehend that as weakness on the part of the human. Orcs are sociopathic. Sociopaths can have families, raise children, work normal jobs, but they can never empathize with others, and their cultures are always deeply dysfunctional (which is why orcs and other evil humanoids are centuries behind humans and demihumans in development).

That's the divide between humans and humanoids and what distinguishes demihumans from humanoids. The ability to empathize. Humanoids are just sharks that talk.
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>>87482353
I like the sound orc-babies make when you toss them in a bonfire.
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>>87482353
industral bastards
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>>87482879
>But that's retarded? Why can't they just be xenophobic?
Xenophobic isn't "evil"
"Me orc me kill because me orc and orc kill" is stupid unless they are literally born to be that way from a curse or something
In my Dark Eldar example it works because they are an isolated society, you will NOT find a dark eldar raised in any other context other than being a sadistic psychopath
Meanwhile if orcs live in "tribes" and t hey have the capacity for thought, they have the capacity to change and adapt, which would inherently not make them 100% evil 100% of the time
It's that simple
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>>87482353
Whichever one lets me indulge in green muscle girls.
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>>87487945
>Their brains are not wired like human brains.
A simple reason to make them "evil", there
But then they should behave according to that, not just be green humans who are savage and evil, of course
Not the guy you're replying to but my initial post clearly said "for no reason", you have a pretty fine reason right there
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>>87488443
>"Me orc me kill because me orc and orc kill" is stupid
And I'd like to reiterate, this is stupid AS A RULE
It makes perfect sense for orc society as a whole to be like this, that's what culture does, make people act more or less the same, but if 100% of orcs even one born in like a human settlement acts like this and there is no reason for it is when I think it's kinda silly, is all
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>>87482353
Chaotic stupid chads
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>>87488493
I think an orc raised in human society would be like a wolf raised in a human home. It might seem civilized, might give little sign of being a wild animal. And then, one day, another boy in the village mildly taunts him and he savagely beats the boy to death with his bare fists, reveling in his blood lust. And the whole village turns to asshole who tried to raise an orc as a human and says "This is your fault. You should have drowned it as an infant like we told you."
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>>87488636
Suppressing instincts is something we humans do on the daily so that's just a shitty dad
Should have explained to little orc boy that he's an orc and trained him to not chimp out...
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>>87488678
That's the difference between a wolf and a dog. Dog (human) is domesticated, it can be trained. Wolf (orc) is wild, it can't be trained. It's instincts are always stronger than any conditioning.
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>>87488768
>conditioning
That's the difference though
Sentient beings can literally override their instinct of self-preservation, there is no instinct stronger
Sentience pretty much trumps it all, assuming you make an effort to overcome whatever it is you are trying to overcome
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>>87488808
Or perhaps the social instinct is stronger. I mean, there is some truth to what you are saying, but also a lot of caveats. Generally, overcoming the self-preservation instinct is called "committing suicide" and is a result of poor mental health, social ostracization, etc. Sometimes it's heroic self-sacrifice in the name of the collective, in which case it's almost invariably a man sacrificing himself to save women and children.

Also, that's just a weird peg to hang sentience on. A lot of clearly sentient humans can't override their instinct for self-preservation and will abandon other humans to their fate and save themselves.

I think sentience is actually much better at creating post-hoc justifications for one's instinctive actions than overriding instinct.
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>>87488897
>A lot of clearly sentient humans can't override their instinct for self-preservation and will abandon other humans to their fate and save themselves.
I did point out the "effort" part
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>>87487945
>do you think it could function in human society?

Probably. Various sharks have been observed to be plenty friendly to humans, and sharks overall typically ignore humans - most shark attacks are caused by sharks thinking we're some other animal and attacking, then letting go as soon as they realize that we're not what they thought we were (and we taste bad).

At a base level the only thing a shark wants is to eat when hungry and not be eaten in turn, so as long as it had reliable access to food and nothing was threatening it, I don't see why its sharky instincts would cause any real problems that overrode its capacity to make choices.
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>>87482353
I like them Noble Monsters
>>
Once proud ancient mayan-adjacent civilization infiltrated by demon worshipers. Nearly wiped out long, long ago in all out war. Their savage descendants now live in tribes high on the mountains where most nights thunder and lightning beats like a drum. Presumably the demon worshiping survived the war.
>>
in my own games I prefer to write them as a race which perceives of the world entirely in two spheres - "those who build" and "those who take" and perceiving the latter to be the entirely superior category
consequently their whole society is built around raiding other races for goods which they do not produce themselves, sacking cities and living in them for a time and then moving on in their great nomadic herds
certainly savage and monstrous, but not without intelligence - just fundamentally different in mindset to most other races
but that's just me, I do very much appreciate a classic evil monster orc who out of malicious instinct follows the will of the dark lord
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>>87482353
Corrupted amalgamation of natural races. This way you can get the faceless hordes of the Big Bad to kill indiscriminately, but also the slight possibility of them overcoming their unfortunate state and earning a great redemption story, because the template which they're made on is inherently good.

Half-orcs can fill the role of the noble savage too, like they're short-tempered and territorial and all that, but still ostensibly human. Having it be that way can also serve as a slight hint at how the Bad One's corruption can't really stand up to the Good One's creation, like just one generation of mixed breeding will spawn a race that may as well be a natural one.
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send all the orcs back to orcfrica. then have the wizards launch fireballs at orcfrica until the boomers say 'glass parking lot'.
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>>87489342
Think more tiger, bull or great white. Man-eaters.

Remember, the shark has no instinct to conform to the herd. It doesn't *care* if the rest of the tribe likes it. It doesn't *care* about its social status. It just cares that it's hungry and humans smell like food.

Yes, it can consciously overcome its instinct to eat people, but why would it? What's it motivation? Humans overcome their killer instincts in regards to other humans because we crave social acceptance and status within the herd. We have socializing instincts that encourage us to think of ourselves as part of a group and to be concerned about other members of the group.

A shark in a human society has no such impulse. It doesn't have the same motivations as us and following the rules of society won't make it happy and fulfilled -- quite the opposite. It will feel constrained constantly, never free to act. To the shark, just being a normal person would be massive pain in the ass, making it constantly miserable...and thus more likely to snap.
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Thinly veiled allegory for mongols/british football hooligans or corrupted forms of other races.
Any other answer is wrong.
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>>87489537
>pic related
>barbarian
I’ve rarely seen a Paladin that well groomed, never mind a Fighter. And he says Barbarian. Because it’s half orc.
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>>87482941
Anyone who follows one of the three Monotheistic desert savage gods, anyone who commits the crime of rape, anyone who commits the crime of harming a child, anyone who attempts to impose his will over the freedom of another person. Those things are all evil, ontologically and objectively.
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>>87489792
*tips fedora*
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>>87489710
>Man-eaters
Literally not a thing
There are zero animals with humans as their prey of choice much less preference
Great white sharks will actively avoid humans on most situations, like most animals, since we fucking kill them
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>>87490089
Way to completely miss the point, mr. shark pedant.
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>>87490130
I don't care about a point based on made up facts
What I care about is misinformation in animal behavior!!!
Jaws was catastrophic for sharks image for the general public...
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>>87490149
Dude, nobody fucking cares. We we're having an interesting conversation which you derailed with the equivalent of "But sharks can't breathe air so a shark in a human village would die!"

Here: If a shark was sentient, could it swim with a school of fish that it normally considers prey? Do you get the point now, brainlet?
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>>87490189
>But sharks can't breathe air so a shark in a human village would die!
That wasn't me
>if sharks were sentient, could they
Yes
Yes they could do anything they wanted behavior-wise so long as they willed it, it's how sentience works, the ability to understand and to choose
Would it want to? No
Could it? Yeah
If it was taught not to eat it's prey? Even more so
Since you asked
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hwot awck cwontent
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>>87490249
You seriously don't think presentient hominid social behavior doesn't track at all onto human society/sentience as it stands now?
Sentience isn't just a switch that once it turns on you're completely divorced from your psycho-biological hardwiring. Human sentience would look dramatically different from dolphin sentience or octopus sentience or shark sentience, since their basic biological psychology is so divorced from ours.
Simply having the intelligence to develop a complex society and self-reflect doesn't cancel out all the other shit baked into our animal-hominid brains. Nor would it for something like a shark or dolphin or whatever.
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>>87491149
>Human sentience would look dramatically different from dolphin sentience or octopus sentience or shark sentience, since their basic biological psychology is so divorced from ours.
And?
>doesn't cancel out all the other shit baked into our animal-hominid brains
"I am human and therefore have the psychological need to live in society" is different from "ME EAT DA HUMIE!!!"
When you get a boner do you go rape the nearest person? And I say person because apes rape other males as well
Do you not?
OH WOW sentience lets you choose how to act (ACT, you cannot METAPHYSICALLY CHANGE YOUR BODY like a magician, you can choose how to ACT) woooow crazy
Your example is stupid
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>>87491586
If it turned out sentient sharks (or dolphins or whatever, the specific creature in the example doesn't matter) lacked anything comparable to human empathy they'd probably go around raping despite their sentience.
The human instinctive impulse to rape is curtailed by its equally instinctive impulse to not alienate itself from its social group and by empathy as well.
Something can be sentient but have wildly different emotions and instincts than humans which would cause it to act in ways fundamentally different to human behavior. It could "choose" to act like a human but without the underpinning fundamental aspects of human psychology it might never consider that behavior as something possible or logical.
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>>87490089
Polar bears actively hunt humans.
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>>87491689
>If it turned out sentient sharks (or dolphins or whatever, the specific creature in the example doesn't matter) lacked anything comparable to human empathy
Sociopaths lack that and can still learn to live in society
>they'd probably go around raping despite their sentience.
If they were raised in the middle of the woods maybe, but if they were raised in say, human society, where they learned what is considered "right" and "wrong" and what the consequences to said actions are, they wouldn't
They still could, some might if they could get away with it, but they would know not to
It's, again, a choice on how to act, not some video game trigger that just happens

>Something can be sentient but have wildly different emotions and instincts than humans
Of course it can, but sentience necessarily means whatever being this is can learn, it is not "locked" into acting any which way, it's instincts are it's instincts, but if it has learned how to act in "human society" and what it's taboos are, it can
Do you think japanese people are born with an "instinct" that tells them about the quadrilion things their society finds rude? Of course not
Now would this hypothetical special act like humans? Obviously not, could they actively attempt to fit into human society if they chose, I mean... yeah
>It could "choose" to act like a human
Glad we agree, yes
>it might never consider that behavior as something possible or logical.
Logical sure, an unknowable alien would have no idea why we do some things, just like how we find different cultures silly depending on what they do, but they could mimic it if they so chose, to fit into human society for whatever goal they might have
The whole argument was "could a sentient shark" and yes, it could actually
Now could it have the same instinctive reactions a human does? No, but that is besides the point
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>>87490130
>nah bro i'm talking like man-eating sharks and shit
>that's a myth, sharks are fairly chill
>dude what's your fucking problem?
>>87491689
Unlike humans, the vast majority of animals have heat cycles for females and chemically-triggered responses for males, so the choice of animal really does matter. Rape from dolphins might be an issue if you don't teach them basic human ethics, but rape from a sentient shark wouldn't ever happen
>>87491714
No they don't
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>>87491714
Technically polar bears actively hunt anything because they live in a snow-blasted hellscape where calories are extremely scarce, but yeah you got me there
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>>87491737
You're fixating on specifics. It isn't relevant whether literal sharks would actually rape indiscriminately if sentient, they're standins for the purpose of argument; replace shark with any nonhuman animal or alien and rape with any major social taboo. The original anon brought up sharks because they're apex predators often believed to be especially vicious in their drive for prey, they could all be lovely - but arguing about the actual habits of sharks is just pedantic autism. The thread is about orcs.
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>>87482353
A race of people biologically wired to be drawn to certain forms of stress because it really activates the seratonin so if they can't get it from physical confrontation they find it in high stress environments and situations.

They also tend to have a lot of gambling debt because a lot of them are serially addicted to gambling.
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>>87491919
>Unlike humans, the vast majority of animals have heat cycles for females and chemically-triggered responses for males, so the choice of animal really does matter.
As for the rest of your post, a simple lol will suffice.
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>>87491728
Like you said I don't really think we're in real disagreement for the most part.
But using your example it would be like a complete psychopath/sociopath trying to navigate a society which made no apparent sense to it - it would even be worse since at least sociopaths have human brains. I don't think it would be easy at all for these hypothetical sentient shark/orcs to 'act human.' Them feeling the need to act in such a way might be extremely unlikely too since a species with a solitary evolutionary background might completely fail to grasp the importance of human social dynamics. But it is admittedly hard to gauge considering we have no real sentient non-humans to observe.
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>>87491996
>They also tend to have a lot of gambling debt because a lot of them are serially addicted to gambling.
Very weird and very based trait desu
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>>87492040
Yeah fair
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i don't put orcs and similar demihumans in my games cause i miss being a kid and D&D being weird and mysterious and those kinds of obvious adventurebait monsters suck that out of the game. i take their stats and maybe change them a bit and reskin them as something else. players usually figure it out eventually but for a few minutes they're up against something new and strange and dangerous and that's what i like about D&D
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>>87488444
AYO
WHERE THE GREEN WOMEN AT
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>>87482353
I like to see them as essentially really big carnivorous cavemen that somehow made it to medieval times. Some Neanderthal vs homo-sapiens type of deal that are similar enough that they might want to fuck humans but different enough that creating an offspring that way is so rare it's the stuff of legends and to them eating human meat is essentially the same as eating monkey meat which they kinda enjoy as a nomadic hunter society. They aren't necessarily evil by their own standards but their standards absolutely appear evil from a human point of view
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>>87482353
Neither. They're perfectly civilized, and have their own empire, incorporating goblins, trolls, and ogres.
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>>87487945
For what it's worth, I think I actually understand what you're talking about, unlike that other anon who's mainly just nitpicking.
I think sharks are a bad example, because they actually are social creatures, and a sentient shark probably would at least try to function in human society if it found it necessary.

But what I think you're saying is that we, as humans, are doing the same thing as apes, with our social structures and the like, but we're much better at it because we're smarter.
And that just because a creature is intelligent, that doesn't necessarily mean that its intelligence would be devoted to the same pursuits as ours.
And if one of those pursuits isn't forming social groups, then no matter how smart the creature is, they're not likely to form a society.
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>>87482353
Noble savages who are evil from the point of view of surrounding cultures.
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>>87482353
Evil savage hordes from the east.
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>>87491714
Because there’s no food in the North Pole anon, that just kinda supports his point. A polar bear’s first choice is going to be the old seal or sick caribou. They’re opportunistic like all carnivores.
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>>87482353
There's nothing noble about an orc, so there are no noble savage orcs.
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I prefer them to be Vick Chambersburg
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>>87482353
Orcs are just bigger goblins, and dumber dark elves



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