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Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to TSR-era D&D, derived systems, and compatible content.

Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons as played in the game's first decade—less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agency.

If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about. We'll be happy to help you get started on this play style.

>Resources, Blogs, etc:
http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128 (embed) (embed)

>Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86342023/#q86358321

>Previous Thread:
>>86808073

>Thread Question:
Have you tried a non-standard setting for your campaign yet? Space Fantasy? Cavemen and Dinosaurs? Modern? Play The Monsters?
>>
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Wait two more pages ya git
>>
>>86834501
last thread:
>why did you wait so long?
this thread:
>why didn't you wait longer?
making new threads:
>hard
>>
>>86834450
Want to contribute to the thread but don't know where to start? Roll 1d10 (dice+1d10 in the "options" field) on the table below!
Tag your post with [OC] if you want it archived at osrgcontent.blogspot.com.

>1. Make a spell
>2. Make a monster
>3. Make a dungeon setpiece
>4. Make a wilderness setpiece
>5. Make a city setpiece
>6. Make a magic item
>7. Make a class, race, or race-as-class
>8. Make a 4-10 room dungeon
>9. Make a trap or dungeon hazard
>10. Roll 2d10 and combine
>>
>>86834670
Waiting until page 10 or whatever is an invitation to break the "next thread" chain. Pay the haters no mind.
>>
How tedious of a process should I make constructing permanent portals?
>>
>>86835289
very, your setting ends when they become commonplace
>>
>>86835337
Yeah, I figured I could require them to be built on intersecting ley lines or some bullshit like that to prevent them from being too close too eachother. Basically only one per setting map.
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>>86835289
By portals do you mean something like the Passwall or Teleport spells?
Is this something that your players want to do? Why do you want to make it tedious? Make it expensive, make it require a list of exotic ingredients, etc., but make constructing them lead to game-able fun for gosh-sakes.
>>
>>86835289
twice as hard as destroying them is.
>>
>>86835372
Not necessarily something they want. Im just overplanning. Got caught on this train of thought while wondering to myself how much an npc wizard should charge for teleportation services.
>>
>>86835407
Ah. I can't remember where at the moment but I think I have seen guidelines for this--NPC spellcaster rates--somewhere for 1e. DMG or Dragon mag? Maybe some other TSR-era D&D? Maybe those could be a starting point.
A permanent portal seems like something a head of state or other powerful figure would have something to say about. The setting in the old game Element Masters featured a known network of portals--you could take a look at how they were handled there. Harnworld has them also but in that case they are lost, hidden, isolated, or otherwise little-known.
>>
>>86831858
>Then declare yourself NTA
If persistent identities are more important to you than the free flow of ideas, you can go to reddit. NTA is only important when you need to clarify that you can not be expected to be in complete agreement with prior posts.
>>
>>86835289
>How tedious of a process should I make constructing permanent portals?

Extremely tedious.

4E honestly had the right idea here - to set up a permanent teleportation transceiver, you have to perform the same (expensive) "Make this magic circle a transceiver" ritual in the same location every day for a a year and a day.

And that didn't open a gate, that just made the location a permanent beacon you could use to port from/to for a reduced cost (or something like that, it's been a while since I abandoned 4E)

Especially the requirement that you do it EACH DAY. It's not something that takes a years worth of work that you can do every other day and finish in two years, somebody has to be in that exact location every day and cast Linked Portal.
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>>86835407
>Actual functional portal that only goes to one location with or without return portal
High cost magic item and installation fee into your dungeon; but not THAT expensive. After all, tons of dungeons have them.

>Portal that can go to multiple locations such as by swapping out gemstones or flipping a lever and/or show the location of where it goes before you step in
This is an expensive, potentially high-magic type of magic item or installation. If it can be reused an infinite number of times its probably a campaign-defining magic item, should be worth at least one wish spell per location it can go to, if not more.

>Players try to haggle and get a second rate sorcerer to do the portals for them
Totally fine and gives a 10% discount but also you have a 1 in 100 chance every time you use the portal to end up in some random place on this or another plane of existence.
>>
>>86834450
>TQ
Yes, for one of my solo games. I only played one session though because honestly I can't stand solo play.
Setting was Egypt + on a different planet + Swords&Computers. Well, khopeshes and computers I guess.
>>
>>86834501
>>86834670
>>86835133
Its not the end of the world if there isn't a general thread for a few hours or a day even. If its just acting as a constant stimulus response instead of discussing actual gameplay its not a great thing, it just encourages shitposting to be part of a 'community' that becomes less and less about games.
>>
>>86835289
Better to make it impossible rather than try and discourage players by making something tedious. There will likely be 1 player who does not give a fuck and wants the goal, but it will still make everything unfun for the group as its tedious, and it will still fuck up your game. If you don't want them to have a thing just tell them no, your the dm.
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I recently remembered I have a geomoprph folder. Has anyone used these or similar for generating dungeons compared to rolling or freehand or downloading a map? Been doing this for ages and never used them. They seem almost like a good base for when someone asks the thread about generating dungeons 'on the fly'.
>image resolution is too large
>damnit dyson fine I'll post one of these
>>86834450
>TQ
Ran a sword & planet kitchen sink + classics game that was a lot of fun.
Current setting and game is late renaissance/early modernismish.
Have done a more traditional fantasy but even then it was likely not standard, more towards mythical woods and faeries.
>>
>>86836225
You can generate some good looking stuff with it.
>>
>>86834450
>Modern
Meet you most of the way.
1850-80s setting and tech, mix of american and europeon expansionist era, gods and magic are very real but losing ground to man's strength, new alignment needle and pantheon being born from that, essentially no friendly demihumans left, major push out into wild lands, lawful societies are now "hamletizing" savage humanoids instead of endless purging them.
These bastards keep wanting cannons though, now I gotta figure out how that stuff works and convert them.
>>
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Although Brothers' War is mostly SOVLLESS, it reminds me of how SOVLFVL older depictions of it were

How do/can/should artificers fit into OSR play? I'm feeling like they should be a gold sink class that can do anything clerics or m-us can, but it costs a lot more money and takes time to prepare/invent
>>
What is the best OSR game to play in the current day and age? Have been looking at adnd 2e and BFRPG so far.
>>
>>86834450
>Have you tried a non-standard setting for your campaign yet?
I feel like steampunk floating islands sort of world could be interesting. Mostly because it'd be interesting to have the characters own an airship and have to buy and sell commodities with some sort of investment system, and they can gain their monthly profits as XP each month. It'd be slow and there'd be risk of flying monsters and pirates, but they could also fly to different islands and explore dungeons there.

Also a pirates game would be interesting. I mean it would work perfectly with gold for XP. I wish I knew more about sailing ships. I know a small bit from books and museums but I wish I was a ships autist the way I was a guns autist and I'd be able to write up an actually decent sourcebook for it.
>>
>>86836442
Why though? What about osr suits what you want to do with 19-21st century world?
>>
>>86836436
Imho there shouldn't be a class for it. Either you're allowed to make magic items anyway, or you aren't.

>>86836442
LotFP since my rules aren't released yet, but BFRPG works pretty well too.
>>
>>86836442
ACKS
>>86836436
ACKS has a nice take on it in one of its Axioms.
>>
>>86836458
I prefer the more lethal style of gameplay compared to the only other edition I’ve played (5e).
>>
>>86836442
Basically, take B/X, mod in some AD&D stuff for advanced things, but not race different from classes nor the autistic super 18.42 ability scores.
Add ACKS domain management, take Books of Wars mass combat rules.
Add and subtract as you see fit.
Now you are starting to OSR.
>>
>>86836442
LBB
>>
>>86836479
If that's it, osr is not necessarily the best fit. Trying to staple XYZ onto it doesn't always work well. The gameplay design around dungeon exploration, gold for xp and levelling are possible to convert over to modern world gameplay but there might be better options if all you want is dangerous combat.
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>>86836590
I think he meant it as a figure of speech, not as an actual game setting
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>>86836442
- Skyscrapers and Sorcery White Box
- Ancient Mysteries & Lost Treasures (by Simon "Barbarians of Lemuria" Washbourne)
They actually work pretty well mashed together, because S&SWB has six very generic character classes that remind one of the d20 Modern "ability score" based classes (Strong Hero, Fast Hero, etc.) but no scientist type, and AM&LT has just one class, the Adventuring Scientist. Mix the games and you cover all your bases.
>>
>>86836780
There's also White Lies for espionage action and Esoteric Enterprises for urban horror white wolf dreck
>>
>kickstarter for new edition of 'Troika!'
Their listed Appendix N makes the game and setting seem really appealing, but every review of adventures for the game are really negative and say it's basically just good graphic design without any substance (aka artpunk)
>>
>>86837604
Troika and the NotOSR in general are proof that whatever your influences, they don't necessarily translate into a meaningful artistic creation.
>>
>>86836436
Magic swords are made by great blacksmiths, and magic baskets are made by great basketweavers. There's no designated magic item guy, that would be fuckin stupid.
>>
>>86836728
Too bad, because all statements here must be taken literally, or, if there is any room for interpretation, in the worst possible light.
>>
>>86836436
>How do/can/should artificers fit into OSR play?

They don't even fit into newer editions, you'll never make them fit into OSR.
>>
>>86836492
>Books of Wars mass combat rules
Is this from ACKS or is it in Da Archive?
>>
>>86836442
>>86836479
I'd agree with the other guy, modern era will be a very poor fit for OSR. Maybe try Cepheus Modern, it's simple and lethal, and gun-based combat in that engine is excellent.
>>
>>86838793
Delta's Book of War should be in the /O-S-R archive, Delta's stuff is generally for OD&D although BoW is edition independent.
>>
>>86837604
It's a dirt-simple system, but I don't know if it's any better than any given dirt-simple system.
The aesthetics are fun, but kinda walks that razor edge of sometimes being up its own ass.
That leaves the adventures - which, for all the fun inspiration they claim, basically all feel like an episode of Teen Titans Go - when push comes to shove, all they can think to do is scream 'lolrandom' at the top of their lungs and call it a day.
>>
>>86838206
I love this idea, it's what I'm doing for the game I'm currently running, the one problem I have is what am I supposed to do if my players end up just passing up a bunch of magic loot? Because the way I'd like to handle magic items in general is fairly low fantasy, so no glaringly obvious auras or energy radiating off weapons for the plane eye to see.
They're all level 1 still so it's not a problem yet. If they start complaining about not finding magic items should I just tell them they're passing them up?
I'm not really sure what kinda hints to drop about it other than maybe remarking on an item's excellent condition.
>>
>>86839511
Just holding a masterwork weapon in your hand is enough to know that it is something special. The balance just seems... perfect. It swipes through the air with barely any effort, and the metal is so finely-wrought that if it's kept sharp, it will reliably cut what you want it to.

That's all you really need to justify the mechanical effect of a +1 weapon. It may not be magical, but it may as well be with how well it is made.
>>
>>86839511
My party has literally walked past every single major magic item I've put before them.
>>
>>86839039
Nonsense. All you need for OSR to work is a wilderness with minimal organized authority and some dungeons to explore. The coat of paint you slather over that can be ancient, medieval, modern, or futuristic -- it's superficial, it doesn't matter to the core gameplay loop.
>>
>>86840029
Modern gun combat is horrible when placed into the OSR combat system. It sort of works okay for flintlock era stuff, but that's the upper limit.
Horses for courses, and OSR is a premodern fantasy dungeon crawler by design.
>>
>>86839511
>>86839511
If they miss it, You let them miss it. If they ask where the magic at, you tell them they keep ignoring it. As a DM, the most you can do is put the magic weapon in the treasure horde and describe the sword as the work of a master artisan, your players should take the hint. If they don't, fuck em.
If they see a pile of gold and chests and a
>Oh look at that sword, it's the finest blade your peasant ass has ever beheld, it almost looks sharp enough to cut the torchlight.
if they just ignore it because it's not shooting fire or glowing, then they're really shit adventurers. If you're lucky they'll take it and they won't immediately try to sell it as an art object.
Bare minimum magic weapons should be apparent they are masterworks with all the bells and whistles that go with that.

It's up to them to realize casting 'Detect Magic' on a treasure horde is a REALLY GOOD idea.
You could even go so far as to hint at this by putting a single magic gold coin in the next treasure.
What does the coin do? Well it's a gold siphon coin. It absorbs other coins and transports them somewhere else.
When their purses keep getting lighter and lighter, maybe they'll develop some caution.
Could even throw in a little adventure to figure out who made the coin and figure out where all their money is being transported to.
>>
>>86839511
>other than maybe remarking on an item's excellent condition.
That in contrast to the garbage weapons new players often try to pick up off of monsters should be enough.
Magic weapons don't have a speck of dust, dirt or rust on them. They're still razor sharp and adorned with ancient symbols, gems and intricate designs.
Also what this >>86839991 Anon said.
At the very least players should pick them up simply because they're more valuable than the average weapons they carry.
If you describe them right they should get the hint.
>>
>>86840060
Nah. Machine guns, blasters, phasers, doesn't matter. Roll to hit an AC, one or two dice of damage, shit just works.
>>
All right let me ask you guys something
How important is system vs setting and theme when running OSR?

>What does a system NEED to do?
>What does the DM NEED to do?

Let me hear your opinions
>>
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>>86840161
Gross.
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>>86840271
>How important is system vs setting and theme when running OSR?
I started my game by having a dungeon I was generating literally as we played and no setting beyond that, with rules that originally started as B/X but later became "what I could remember from B/X plus any house rules I thought would be fun". So I'd say theme > setting > rules as far as game goes.
(if you change it too much it may not be OSR anymore, but that's okay too.)

>What does a system NEED to do?
Mostly get out of the way as much as possible while still allowing a sensible set of rules.

>What does the DM NEED to do?
Set up a world with options for the players to interact with and allow them relatively free reign to do what they want and receive appropriate consequences for it. Adjudicate fairly. Breathe life into the world.
>>
>>86840374
>free reign
*free rein
Unless somebody's just handing out kingdoms to rule over
>>
>>86840399
Oh, whoops. Typing on autopilot.
I'd be tempted though. It feels like it's taking forever for the party to get to name level, and I want to test out domain rules.
>>
Anyone gotten their hands on Wightchester yet? Its Grim Jim’s 500 page Mordheim and Defoe 1666 (a AD 2000 comicbook) ruined city crawl full of zombies.
>>
>>86840364
As if D&D combat isn't already abstracted to an absurd degree. Even if you use variable weapon damage, even if you use a specific weapon vs AC table, D&D melee still ignores so many factors that matter a lot in realistic close combat, not least the weapon the defender carries. But we don't bother with that shit because d20 rolls and simple hit points and Armor Classes are easy, intuitive, and fun.
>>
>>86840161
Unironically this. Even if your guns only have a d6 for damage, it will still kill a normal 1/2 HD human in one shot more than half of the time.
>>
>>86840921
>>86841044
If I'm gonna have a game about gunfights, I'll use something like Classic Traveller, because it's actually good for that, instead of mangling it into D&D and saying "lol good enough."
>>
Thinking about homebrewing a kobold mother. I want it to be more sad than it is dangerous though.

Im running kobolds as wretched marsupial men, whose females grow fat and vegetative. As they are too large to move on their own they must rely on the males to hand feed them and are unable to do anything except nurse their many young. Kobold mothers birth many times more young than they have teats, and so the vast majority of kobolds either suffer from stunted growth or starve outright while the few who manage to not be pried away from the mother's precious milk will inevevitably grow into the leaders of their generation as the strongest of their kind. The kobold mother is indeed powerless to stop even her own children from mating with her, let alone defend herself from adventurers or predators. This results in an ever increasingly grotesque kobold species.

Should I even bother giving her stats? Any ideas for hazardous effects to give her to be more than just a natural tragedy for my players to encounter?
>>
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>kobold mother
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>>86841237
If it's not going to be something to fight, I wouldn't bother with stats. HP at most if they decide to kill it.
I like the idea though.
>>
Anyone done high level OSR

How did it go?

was it fun?
>>
>>86841868
Technically played a high level Adnd game when my group was starting out, it lasted for years, all the original characters started at 1st level, by the end everyone was on at least their second character. Our DM was actually more of a 3e-3.5e player though, so there was a lot of influence from that. Overall it was great, that could just be nostalgia though.
>>
>>86841237
This is literally the female skaven from Warhammer.
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>>86842252
Im sorry, Ive not played warhammer.
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>>86836442
ADnD easily
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>>86836492
>Race as class
Eww
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>>86836442
You already know what it is.
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>>86842493
Godbound?
>>
>>86841868
Not really but I have a level 7 magic user in my BX game
>>
>>86837604
Troika is literally Fighting Fantasy for hipsters
This is not a meme
Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2e is in-print and readily available

>>86840271
Yes
>>
>>86840271
System and themes are key and necessarily support eaxh other when dine well.
>system has gp for xp and themes of attaining greatness by unearthing treasures
>system has reaction rolls and themes of a fragmented underworld with scheming powers
Setting as a workable frame rather than overly concrete is good too.
>>
What's so special about ACKS?
>>
>>86843482
It pioneered the multiple-racial-class system and it has excellent ground-up domain rules.
>>
>>86843533
>It pioneered the multiple-racial-class system
Doubtful. BECMI got in on that through the Gazetteers, and I'd be surprised if that were the first.
>>
>>86843567
Maybe there were, maybe there weren't, but the major reason people know about it today is ACKS. It was influential in a way that the Gazetteers were not.
>>
>>86843053

how was it ?
>>
>>86843590
>ACKS
>Inflluential
>>
>>86843639
Mate if you're gonna willfully misunderstand everything I say you're gonna have a hard time communicating.
>>
>>86843646
nta
I’d say the ACKS domain system gets referenced more than any other OSR product and is on equal footing with AD&D.
ACKS’s greatest achievement is synthesizing BX and the better parts of 2e. Too bad about the stupid anti-THACO mechanic. I don’t know what he was thinking with that shit. It’s unprecedented in a bad way.
>>
ACKS 2e will be ludo, mark me
>>
>>86843663
>the ACKS domain system gets referenced more than any other OSR product
Nah, I don't think it's even in the top 5.
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>>86843693
Name them
>>
>>86843482
The autism is commendable, and it has spurred my own autism to further heights.
>>
>>86843716
LotFP, DCC, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, probably a tossup between Blueholme and C&C as #5

Shit, I don't even think ACKS ranks above Godbound.
>>
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>>86834867
Taurcen
no. appearing: 10-120
armor class: 8
move in inches: 6
hit dice: 2
% in liar: 95%
treasure type D
number of attacks: 1
points of damage per attack: 1-3
>>
>>86843773
Don't forget OSE, which gets a huge amount of OSR discussion. And that's lines rather than individual products.
And that's only if you don't count actual TSR stuff, B2 alone probably gets more discussion than all of those put together.
>>
>>86843773
Did you misread my post? I said DOMAIN system.
LotFP does property and trade part of a domain system.
DCC doesn’t do domains to any appreciable level in the core book. Not sure about any supplements.
OSRIC is a 1e reformat so it would be the AD&D system anyway, sort of.
Labyrinth Lord is reformatted B/X
Can’t speak to Blueholme, never bothered
C&C hardly ever gets referenced since it’s the malformed child of TSR D&D and 3e. Can’t comment on it’s domain system since I’ve never read it.

Whenever anyone asks about domain management ACKS inevitably enters the conversation.
>>
>>86843875
Sure, but you said
>the ACKS domain system gets referenced more than any other OSR product
not
>the ACKS domain system gets referenced more than any other OSR domain system

Also Labyrinth Lord's An Echo Resounding gets mentioned about as often as ACKS.
>>
>>86843900
That is a pedantic assertion regarding the statement of intent.
However, I will concede An Echo Resounding. Crawford’s design is exceptional.
>>
>>86843934
It might be "pedantic" but the claim you meant to assert is in a whole other category from the claim you actually made. Nobody would have found fault if you'd picked your words more carefully.
>>
>>86843482
A special kind of gamer loves ACKs largely because it supports their views -- imagine if 2E had been written by some of the worst people on the internet.

Otherwise it's a mid aughts retro-clone. It once had a minor reputation for having a good domain system, but generally it's needlessly complex while also being bland.
>>
>>86841044
B-but a 9mm handgun instakills everybody much harder than a halberd ever could!?!
>>
>>86844002
So you finding fault in a minor transgression of my hastily written text is some kind of win against my primary assertion that the ACKS domain system is ascendant in the discussion of OSR domain systems?
Enjoy your big fat W, I guess.
>>
>>86844074
It's a win against your grasp of the English language, and apparently against your ability to not act like a douche.
All I said was, you accidentally made a much broader claim than what you now say you intended, which is the only reason everybody jumped on you about it, and if you had been careful to say what you actually mean you might have avoided that.
>>
>>86844104
>everybody
You

We’re done here
>>
>>86844104
>apparently against your ability to not act like a douche.
He said while acting like a douche.
>>
>>86844131
I came in after like two or three other posts, faggot
>>86844139
I didn't start the douchefest. If you mean to say "I love pie" but you actually say "I love Hitler" you don't get to then act surprised if people thought you loved Hitler. We can only engage with the things people say here, not the shit they thought inside their head and failed to put on screen, so being pissy about it just makes you a dick, and if you're a dick, we'll be dicks in return.
>>
>>86844264
Pie=Hitler
>>
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>>86844271
>Pie=Hitler
mfw
>>
ACKS and AER are both good but drastically different.

AER says "you get 2 wealth and who cares if that's in ored minerals or farmed harvest or taxes or whatever, you don't need to keep track of it and any excess of your costs go to waste"

ACKS says "you have 12 peasant families, 5 of them are producing 10 bushels of wheat worth 10gp each and 4 of them work in the local iron mine providing you with 10gp worth of iron each and 1 of them is a smith who turns iron into steel etc"
>>
>>86843805
Shouldn’t a reverse centaur have the entire body of a human and the upper body of a horse? 6 limbs. 2 human legs, 2 human arms and 2 horse forelegs.
>>
Shilling Saturday comes again!

Today on the blog, expanding dice pool roll under to encompass a customizable, but compatible, "skill system" for the LBBs:
https://clericswearringmail.blogspot.com/2022/11/proficiency-dice-for-0e.html
>>
>>86844957
Did you diablerize KLOWN?
>>
>>86845353
I don't think so. Talked to him on Thanksgiving though - so he's still alive and kickin', if you were worried.
>>
We trying LotFP as our first OSR game and I'm a little confused on how modifiers affect saving throws.

It says that Intelligence affect magic user's spells and wisdom affect all other saving throws, is this right or am I misinterpreting it?

Also, how other does systems deal with these modifiers, it seems like OSE only wisdom modifies saves and it only affects the magic saving throw.
>>
>>86845620
>LotFP as our first OSR game
>our first OSR game
just play a TSR game or something from THAT era. because all the clones and Nu-SR shit are someone else's shitbrew based on the old originals. and OSR is all about that, so why don't you play the original and make your own shitbrew as you play?
>>
>>86843934
>>86844294
AER was abysmal, imho. Basically unusable.
People bring it up when the concept of domain rules come up, but it's not a usable solution.

>>86844002
>>86844104
Don't be autistic. The meaning of his sentence was 100% clear in context. If you can't understand normal human communication that's on you, not the other guy.

>>86845620
Intelligence affects YOUR saving throw against Save vs. Spells. Wisdom affects YOUR saving throw for the other four. You could make an argument that Intelligence also affects Save vs. Device but that isn't as-written.

Intelligence affects ENEMY saves against MU spells. Wisdom affects ENEMY saves against Cleric spells.
>>
>>86846090
Thank you very much for the clarification!
>>
>>86844029
Were you not slapped down hard enough in the last thread?
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Has anyone done an OSR game yet where you play those kind of small talking animals that were very popular before THEY ruined everything?
And regardless how would I design a reward system that doesn't revolve around treasure? The likes of Redwall and Wind in the Willows doesn't really revolve around treasure hunting and personal greed/ambition, though what I'm planning doesn't have to strictly adhere to that I do think that such a critter would have other priorities. Would be funny though.
>Butterbun look, it's an entire ivory button! We could get a whole gold pennyweight for that!
>>
>>86846429
Mausritter is just what you're looking for and it's non-furry (and fucking free with tons of free supplemental content).
https://losing-games.itch.io/mausritter
>>
>>86846429
see
>>86846624
I also had a player who would always play companion animal PCs like raven, dogs or bears in D&D. He was good enough to pull it off, but I wouldn't have let some of my other players even try it.
>>
No matter much I make use of custom rules, or use other OSR systems that try to tweak or innovate, all roads lead to back to raw B/X. What a great system.
>>
>>86846624
>card based inventory
>non-vancian casting
>classless
>armor is damage resist
Not remotely OSR. Fuck off.
>>
>>86847570
>fighting is discouraged where trickery is encouraged
>death comes quickly
>no skills, only ability checks on very dire situations
>can hire mercs
>can build stronghold
Seems OSR enough to me, more than MANY, MANY artpunk shit things.
>>
>>86847617
>ability checks
Add that to the list. OSR is not a "play philosophy" it's a type of ruleset, FOE.
>>
>>86847633
NTA.
I agree that for a game to be OSR it must be mechanically compatible with the old games.
I disagree that any discussion or recommendation of OSR-inspired games is offtopic to the /osrg/ thread.

As stated many, many many many times before. OSR is two things, playing games like they were played in the past. And, understanding why games were better in the past, and applying that to potential new games, or shitbrews of current ones. What I'm saying is that OSR isn't just a "genre" or very strict category, of games, it's a philosophy too. And since we're intrested in the philosophy of OSR, games that are OSR-inspired are very much intresting to our niche.
>>
>>86846302
“Have you tried FATE?”
>>
>>86846624
Nice, should be at least something to work off of.
>>
>>86847570
Agreed.
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>>86834867
I make little spell
shut up I know 5e sucks but I make it work
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>>86848050
>shut up I know 5e sucks but I make it work
My dude you are working harder for worse results.
>>
>>86848050
You can't put a shit between two buns and say you're making it work, anon.
>>
>>86848681
But shit comes from between two buns
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>>86844038
That's not what we're talking about

Where's the rules for indirect mortar fire dispersion? How does machine gun suppression interact with the morale system? A flamethrower rarely kills by fire, mainly by toxic smoke inhalation, does D&D model that, and if so, how? Tracking hireling ammunition is easy when they volley arrows, but when you have modern warfare (that is, dispersed independent command) how quickly do they go through bullets? A system that is good for modern combat must in fact consider modern combat.

> You're an idiot if you think D&D isn't perfect for modern combat
hey go fuck yourself
>>
>>86849332
>A flamethrower rarely kills by fire, mainly by toxic smoke inhalation, does D&D model that, and if so, how?
With abstract "hit points" which are dissociated from physical harm!
>but how do you track weapons?
My thief has a glock 40. It does d6 damage. It's also really loud. He has 10 shots. This isn't rocket science.
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>>86849501
>My thief has a glock 40
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>>86849332
Yeah, a big part of the OSR is founded on the understanding that rules are important, and you need rules that back up what the game is about. Change the rules, get a different game with different outcomes and emphasis.
D&D was not designed to do this sort of thing, and it does it badly. Some people are okay with rules that do things badly, but that's not very OSR if you ask me. That's "I want to run OSR in 5e" kind of shit.
>>
While modern firefight tactics do not translate well to OSR, I've found that Napoleonic and American Revolution style warfare work fine.
>>
>>86849717
Times that Fry Men's Souls is a neat hexcrawl that demonstrates this.
>>
>>86849501
>My thief has a glock 40. It does d6 damage. It's also really loud. He has 10 shots. This isn't rocket science.
Cool, how many do your hirelings have and how fast do they fire them when you're not looking?

(You can respond to the actual point or you can KYS yourself, just pick one)
>>
>>86849717
Yeah, like someone said upthread, flintlock era works fine, it's just past that it starts to play like ass compared to a proper modern-gun-combat system.
>>
>>86849717
>While modern firefight tactics do not translate well to OSR, I've found that Napoleonic and American Revolution style warfare work fine.

Any time before the death of cavalry really, I'd say (which, yes, had its final glory days ca. American Revolution).

The machinegun's role in destroying the viability of cavalry did in turn destroy cavalry's ability to destroy the viability of small independent commands. So long as small independent commands are doomed to failure (because they can't stand off cavalry), battles are still understandable in large terms and fairly easy to run.
>>
>>86849501
>With abstract "hit points" which are dissociated from physical harm!
How far into the bunker complex do people lose hit points when a flame thrower is used to clear out the entrance?
>>
>>86849873
>how fast do they fire them when you're not looking?
My point is you can fix a fire rate and price tag and all the stats and mechanics you need to make it happen. That isn't actually hard. The real question is whether you should bother.
>>
>>86848050
>image used for spell
CREDO!
>>
>>86849553
That’s not a Glock.
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>>86850411
Yes, that's why the image is funny.
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>>86847084
>raw B/X
erm...? I'm noob pls explain.
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>>86850512
Basic D&D second edition, comprised of Moldvay's Basic and Cook's Expert sets. Basic/eXpert or B/X.
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>>86849913
I dunno, maybe a cone of fire 9" long with a 3" base diameter? Modeled after a Red Dragon's breath?
And if you want to produce your Distinguished Service Medal earned during the Pacific campaign, I'll be happy to bow to your experience about how that's not what would really happen.
>>
>>86850687
I was just gonna say model it off of Burning Hands. Spells are a good template for weapon effects since mages were literally a replacement for artillery pieces in wargaming.
>>
>>86850567
Question: I got the impression that the red box was the iconic and most popular edition of classic D&D, why was the OSR so structured around the much earlier edition?
>>
>>86847687
>i disagree that discussing not osr in the /osrg/ is totally worth shitting the thread up about when a different thread coyld be made about it
NTAYRT
It is the philosophy AND the rules, not just one or the other.
>>
>>86850934
OSR began around AD&D, not basic. But after the first wave, people started exploring OD&D and Basic, and B/X in particular became the star of the show, as the general conclusion was that it was the clearest, least cluttered, most effective expression of the original game that TSR produced. Like if you want people to really get what OSR is and how it's run and played, it's the best place to start, and its rules hang together beautifully, and are easily modified and extended.
>>
>>86850768
Hopefully not 1e Burning Hands. Range measured in hands on that one.

>>86850687
This is probably the best bet!
>>
>>86844564
But that would leave centaurs with just two horse legs and they wouldn't be able to walk even.
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>>86851781
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>>86852555
jesus christ
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>>86851330
B/X was just made for children aka lowest common denominator. Its the 5e of OSR, popular because of how simple it is because it barely requires any brain cells or efforts
>>
>>86852970
> turd hobbit history lesson
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>>86852970
So then even you should be able to understand it, provided you get a 9 year old to help you, right?
>>
>>86851330

The first of the commonly accepted "OSR" titles is Basic Fantasy RPG (it came out BEFORE Osric) and it's clearly based on B/X.

I'm not sure what "wave" your talking about because the first four OSR games that most people can agree on would be:

BFRPG - B/X
OSRIC - AD&D
S&W - OD&D
LL - B/X

And considering there have been essentially no further development on the AD&D side of the OSR since then....
>>
>>86853203
The whole OSR movement started off in forums devoted to AD&D. Basic Fantasy was virtually unknown when I came in. I didn't hear much about it until around the time Labyrinth Lord got big, because that's around the same time when people started talking about Basic D&D a lot, and BFRPG started to get noticed.
>>
>>86853203
When was C&C desu
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>>86853285

don't care C&C isn't OSR, it's a game inspired by old games - but it's not an OSR game.
>>
>>86853294
C&C was part of the early OSR whether you like it or not
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>>86852555
I would very much like to not fight that
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>>86853245

I don't care when "you" came in - BFRPG was there before OSRIC and existed in the same forums and circles chief.

Again the OSR (as we know it) was born in an 18-month window, and of the four games that kicked it all off only one was AD&D based - and in the years since it's the one that gets touched or referenced the least.

Nothing wrong with OSRIC or AD&D but to say that the OSR was built on AD&D is just factually incorrect.
>>
>>86853300

No it was part of a D20 craze - but it's not an OSR game, changed too much, it fails compatibility it's out.

Doesn't mean it's not good or not fun, just not OSR.
>>
Oh good, it’s purity test time is /osrg/. God willing this one can be more insipid than the last one.
>>
>>86853300
C&C predates the OSR movement, and lies outside it. C&C was part of the OGL "let's take 3e and try to make it ''''feel'''' like old TSR stuff" era that predated the OSR and the first retroclones. When retroclones appeared people realized they could literally play with TSR D&D rules again, instead of using hacky 3e workarounds, and C&C and most of its brethren faded into obscurity. Only DCC really makes any ripples anymore.
>>
>>86850934
that impression is wrong, Mentzer's money grab bullshit tanked dnd sales
>>
>>86853356
C&C is proto-OSR. Unlike HackMaster 4e or Mazes & Monsters, C&C really was trying to cater to the "dissatisfied grognard" market; its failure to do so (despite even having Gary Gygax on board) directly precipitated OSRIC, and thus undergirds one of the two foundational pillars of the OSR (the other being BFRPG).
>>86850934
In the real world, the red box is damn iconic. This thread is just populated with an older Gen X cohort of sneering sub-edition partisans.
>>
>>86853608
>proto-OSR
You can make up snowflake terms all you want, but they're still bullshit. "Undergirds" my ass, it just happened before.
>>
>>86853608
>Monsters
* Minotaurs.
>>
>>86852555
Yeah but I’d make it bipedal reverse centaur. If you want the horse part to be closer to full horse scale the human body is going to have to be ogre sized.
>>
>>86853620
>Nuh-uh!

Looks like you need to do some light reading:
http://osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com/2021/02/a-historical-look-at-osr-part-i.html
>>
>>86853629
Already read it; just because x comes before y doesn't mean y owes jack shit to x.
Also thanks for outing yourself as a basedjak-posting dipshit, it's a succinct way to surrender any credibility you might have had.
>>
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>>86853203
>>86853307
OSRIC was released in 2006.
BFRPG was released first in 2007.
Gonnerman did do a _preview_ in '06, the game wasn't released first - though, that's not the point you're making. I think what I heard - and what I agree with - is that Basic was always part of the landscape.

But >>86853331 is right. Why are we arguing about this when we could be rolling on the content table, sharing WIPs, and actually playing the game?

Content tax - here's a hex map I was playing with that may or may not see the light of day.
>>
>>86853587
Any decent writeups on how?
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>>86854939
No because it's bullshit
>>
Rolled 3 (1d10)

>>86834867
>>
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>>86853005
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86736716/#q86754622
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86736716/#q86754622
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86535407/#q86569329
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86535407/#q86560783
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86535407/#q86559261
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86535407/#q86558999
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86535407/#q86548663
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86736716/#q86754622
>>
>>86855978
What "evil?" Adults playing with their toys the wrong way?

Fuck off back to /pol/.
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>>86844957
We need osr people who don’t play solely to shill their products
>>
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>>86856387
>>
>>86834450
been reading The Lord of the Rings.

a gimmick I think might be neat that I think lead a lot of credence to that world that could be applied to others is that characters might know 2d4 rhymes/tales/poems from their lands. some may be true, others not but fairy tales, some are half truths. some about local things, some about far off and long distant tales. like sam’s rhyme about olephants, Roherim songs about ents or the forest enchantress.

its kinda like a personal rumor table for each pc. might also be good conversation fodder too. gives a bit of mystery as well.
>”I dont know if this is true, but in old milltown they say ____”

what do you think? maybe 2d4 is a bit much, kinda want to say 2d3, but depends on the game I suppose.
>>
>>86856387
Keep fighting the good fight, anon
>>
>>86856744
I think making a background world rumour table or at least a list is useful. Not sure if 2d4 is a table I'd use specifically. I have a running list of all the various things going on in the world and apply it to a variation of this table. Starting characters get a free roll.
You could do some foe stuff and ask the player to come up with how the character knows the rumour from their origins or homeland or something similar, otherwise it seems like you'd have to make a table for each cultural grouping, make the table varied enough it doesn't overlap results too often, etc.
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>>86856907
I wasnt saying to use a 2d4 rumor table but that characters know 2d4 tales (4-5 average). since that seems like a managable number to know.
>>
Rolled 8 (1d10)

>>86834867
>>
>>86856957
An average of 4 tales, per character, seems like a lot of background work for a character that could easily die in the first level or two of gameplay. If a player makes 2 characters from the same area that's 8 of however many tales you've made, likely the majority unless you're making a bunch of them per region.
Not sure what the gimmick adds at this point, seems just like a gimmick.
>>
>>86856907
nice table! i yhink it could be a bit more ad hoc rather than making pre established rumors for every culture. unless you already have a really develop world and you feel like doing that work.
>>86857190
thats why I said “maybe 2d3, but depends on the game”.
in reference to greater or less character life expectancy.

Granted that a character survives, I think its a good method of framing a character in the world and engagement. not that its a must have or anything.
>>
>>86857469
>it could be a bit more ad hoc
That's how I use it. I have a running list of things happening in the world I can draw on for rolls, and the dungeon write-up for dungeon rumours. The party gets a free roll every time they return to civilization or encounter a group they can parley with, people like to gossip. They can spend time and money gathering further rumours in town or bribing dungeon locals. Its been working really well.
>I think its a good method of framing a character in the world and engagement.
I'm with you on that one, just trying to think of how to include it meaningfully without it taking up a lot of time & space.
>>
>>86857664
>I'm with you on that one, just trying to think of how to include it meaningfully without it taking up a lot of time & space.
thats a granted possible time sink that could spiral into a pain. but for a first session thing you could kind of think of the various possible things a given character might have heard. not a hard and fast rule, but a few local info points by their point of origin. one or two outland tales thats justified by whatever traveler, and a failry tail.

like for sailors of the starless seas various pc’s might have heard different rumors about the dark lord of the local castle.

I think a good rule of thumb is to encorperate some aspects of the world already made into some tail. the. some fluff stuff that goes towards the tone more than anything.
>>
>>86857777
>I think a good rule of thumb is to encorperate some aspects of the world already made into some tail. the. some fluff stuff that goes towards the tone more than anything.
Oh shit do people not expand on how the character came across the rumour when they're telling the players the information? I'm not nearly enough of a poet or linguist to have poems on hand I can stitch together but it seems like you could add a table for new characters with
>how you heard the rumour
>1. Village Festival Song
>2. Old aunt's warning tale
>3. Wandering Gnome told you while passing through.
>4. Travelling theatre troupe play
>5. Posted edict of the land
>6. Sermon from local religious leader
>7. Overheard in the agora
>8. Whispered about by family
etc.
Beyond the Wall might have something sort of like this for the village generation or how rumours are incorporated into character generation stuff now that I think of it.
>>
>>86857842
>Beyond the Wall might have something sort of like this for the village generation or how rumours are incorporated into character generation stuff now that I think of it.
If someone meshes Beyond the Wall with ACKS and adds in Mighty Deeds of Arms we will have the ultimate system.
>>
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>>86858246
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>>86858246
…I must believe you are in league with the baiter.
>>
>>86857931
NTAYRT
Not very familiar with ACKS but BtW has a series of race-as-class playbooks that might mesh up with ACKS' class setup.
>>
I've got an incomplete B/X hack lying around that is more or less just regular B/X with some minor tweaks but I cannot be assed to go over B/X to complete it. What are your thoughts on Black Hack as a source of material to fill the gaps of my stuff?
>>
>>86855978
It would help your cause if you stopped conflating the death of a historical method of playing elfgames with a great all encompassing evil, anon
>>
>>86859756
I rolled a d4 to see how much OSR was in the Black Hack, but it came up 1, so the OSR was extinguished.
>>
>>86859825
Black Hack is the 'based on a true story' of OSR
>>
>>86834450
I’ve already read through Basic Set. How much does Expert differ? Should I read both at once before playing?
>>
>>86861423
>How much does Expert differ?
it covers later character levels for the most part. You can start without it and have no problems, but it will give you more options.
>>
>>86861423
Expert is for characters level 4-14 so it details there advancement, including higher level spells. The DM information is for wilderness adventures, treasures, and creatures. There’s also more information on hirelings and domain level play.
You could theoretically run adventures for characters over 3rd level with Expert but there would be some vital information missing.
>>
>>86855785
This one is the best, so it's good that you linked it 3 times:
>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86736716/#q86754622
>>
>>86849000
TRIPS OF TRUTH
>>
Is a trap that consists of
>engage tripwire in middle of long hallway and mechanism drops the stone ceiling on your head
unsporting?
>>
>>86861717
nah, unsporting would be to have the stone fall 10' back from the tripwire
>>
>>86861717
Less unsporting than it is impractical for the builders. Even if they know how to avoid the trap, they'd have to rebuild the ceiling every time someone else trips it.
>>
Would it be too cliche to just have the mega dungeon be the gods' funhouse?
>Risk life and limb to entertain the gods above and make it big
>>
>>86862654
I saw a game where the megadungeon was a run by Hades and had game show/competition elements. Looked really fun.

Admittedly a part of that is because I think the Greek cthonic deities are really cool. Especially Kore.
>>
>>86862844
Speaking of greek deities, Ive been thinking it'd be cool to run a setting in a pseudo bactria with the hodge podge indo-greek bullshit.
>>
>>86859756
>I have this thing I think is based on something I can't be bothered to read to check even though it was made for 10 year olds, am I part of the cool kids club yet?
Please be bait.
>>
>>86862654
>too cliche
...where have you seen this before?
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>>86862874
...anime
>>
>>86862654
Lean into it. Frame it as a game show. Competing NPC parties, a demon or some other outer entity as the host, dummy prizes, the floor is lava, etc.
I’m being a bit glib but even if it is cliche who cares as long as it’s fun. Just make sure it doesn’t destroy the tone of your game.
Searching my memory I can only remember a few adventures that do anything like ‘entertainment for the gods’ as a theme. One is an old Stormbringer adventure and the other was something for 3e that tabletopified something from one of the Blizzard games. There’s probably some stuff in like old Role-Aids supplements or something.
>>
>>86862883
Don't play with weebs and it'll be fine. In all cases really not just this one.
>>
>>86862998
Cant be done. I am one. There is no cure, it is terminal.
>>
I love rolling up random dungeons. What is the best dungeon generating tanke?
>>
>>86852970
If you think simplicity is what’s wrong with 5e, you’re about as smart as a retard shoving batteries up his ass to get super-charged.
>>
>>86863330
>tanke
I don't know what a tanke is but the 1st editon DMG is the best I've tried.
>>
>>86844002
>cannot into principle of charity
>wastes time on grounds of uber-correctness
Y are you like this
>>
>>86863361
I assume it's related to the reason you respond to garbage posts from two days ago.
>>
>>86863381
I'm using microsofts dead browser don't hate me
>>
>>86863361
That's "principle of generosity", doofus. And I was not the guy who took the other anon to task, I was telling him that it was dumb to get mad at the earlier posters.
Also, that principle only applies when there are multiple possible interpretations of your argument, it doesn't apply if you say something with one clear interpretation. (Especially if you then you get buttflustered.)
In that case, you ought to just say "okay, I mis-spoke, here's what I meant to say." Own up to the misstatement like an adult, and proceed calmly from there.
>>
>>86863356
It means I'm a cocksucking esl phoneposter whose phone autocorrects table.
>>
>>86863333
No one said that simplicity was wrong, only that it attracts the lowest common denominator :^)
>>
I need 5 wandering monsters appropriate for a 3rd-level party that have the following qualities:
>lives underground, particularly in caverns
>can move through water-flooded tunnels
>preferably found in/originating from the Underdark
>weird, freaky and bizarre is good
>>
>>86843900
I have no dog in this race but you're either awfully retarded or willfully misunderstanding that anon
>>
>>86864537
Monster Manual, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual 2 have what you need
>>
>>86863213
My condolences. Committing sudoku or running 1 of many rarely discussed weeb osr options.
The megadungon sounds goofy but fine. Might get to be a bit much after a while with the premise but ymmv.
>>
>>86864537
>>
>>86863418
>Own up to the misstatement like an adult
An adult would not bring it up irrelevancies, but ignore them.
>>
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>pcs just attack everything they see
>put three factions in this dungeon so people can choose to ally, there's little mini quests in the dungeon
>pcs just attack everything they see
>one of these is basically a warhammer chaos warrior wandering around and he wants you to find him some Apostates
>"we attack him"

Jesus christ, we might as well be playing Warhammer Quest or something these fucking retards just literally attack everyone and everything they encounter with no chill at all.

>anondm i ran out spells, guess i'll bring my switch for the next time I fire all of my spells off

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
>>
>>86865938

what are you running anon
>>
>>86865938
It sounds like you made the mistake of making "balanced" enemies
>>
>>86865938
Have all the dungeon factions ally against them, at great cost
>>
>>86865938
If they're powerful enough to kill everything in your dungeon then why are you complaining?

If you actually wanted them to make allies, throw an obstacle in their path that requires allies or some greater force.
>>
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>>86865938
They didn't get their shit kicked in yet?
>guess i'll bring my switch for the next time
How stupid is that, I hope it was in jest
>>
>>86856744
In reference to others saying the OC could die, have the rhymes be 'remembered' at a rate of one per level.
>>
A fine choice for the new cover of Labyrinth Lord 2nd Ed. Mr. Daniel Proctor!
>>
>>86867518
Very early 2000’s webcomic vibe
>>
>>86867518
So Dan is exploiting artists from poor countries who have never played D&D to make shitty cheap art for LL 2E on Fiverr.
>>
>>86867590
>exploiting
You mean "paying him what he asked for in exchange for services voluntarily rendered?" The dude's not chained to a desk in a sweatshop.
Also he's pretty talented, pic related
>>
>>86867590
>Paying someone what they ask for a product is "exploitation"
Leave 4chan.
>>
>>86867590
>exploited

I hope this was a failed joke.
>>
>>86867590
$65 dollar Fiverr job looks like a $65 Fiverr job. It’s quite bad.
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>>86867622
>The dude's not chained to a desk in a sweatshop.
Most people working in sweatshops voluntarily sign the contract to work there. The idea that you're not exploited because you agreed to the deal is very, very silly. Anyways, this has nothing to do with OSR play.
>>
>>86867825
Sort of true, as most exploitation involves systemic pressure. Like people worked in the "dark, satanic mills" of the Industrial Revolution not because they liked it, but because enclosure laws and vagrancy laws and etc had basically destroyed the self-sufficiency and barter economy that had once existed, leaving people no other choice.

But that's not happening here, guy just lives in Argentina and makes a fantastic wage compared to the cost of living in his region.
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>>86867518
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>>86867948
Doesn’t look like weeb shit so it’s ok.
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>>86867518
>grogs in charge of artwork

At least splurge a bit on the main cover of your product jfc
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>>86868065
anime website (not that the LL cover is even close)
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>>86867518
>cute elf girl, halfling looks exactly like a bro-tier hole dweller, knight looks badass
>dragon is cool
>cave is psychedelic but dark
>font is petty
This must be what people mean by SOVL. It isn't great but it conveys just the right aesthetic anyway.
>>
>>86868343
Reminder that weebs got mocked so often and for so long on this "anime site" that mods got sick and tired of it and implemented the wapanese->weeaboo word filter, which rather than stopping it, became the ubiquitous "weeb."
>>
>>86865057
They really don't though. Which is why I was asking, because I need some deep cuts from weird sources.

>>86865275
Do you guys really think I didn't consult the classic encounter tables first? The problem is most of those creatures don't meet the criteria.

Like would a piercer crawl down to the floor of a cavern, then work its way under a water-filled tunnel, into another cavern? Seems unlikely.

That's why I was asking, because I need actual thought and advice from actual players, not tables I'm already familiar. I already tried the OBVIOUS solutions of googling and checking my own library. What I'm looking for is cool monsters that aren't in the usual sources.

But really, I forgot that /tg/ is useless now and completely taken over by witless fuckstains like your dumb ass who have no desire to help others, no knowledge to share, and no creativity. You're just stupid, ignorant, no-games fucks that waste everyone's time with your memey bullshit and snide snark. The world would genuinely be better off if you locked yourself in the bathroom and then cleaned the tub with a mix of ammonia and bleach.
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>>86868450
Only turd hobbits believe this.
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>>86865938

>I'll just bring my nu-gameboy again once I use all my spells

Anon, this man sounds like he has literally no respect for you as a person
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>>86868579
>You're just stupid, ignorant, no-games fucks that waste everyone's time with your memey bullshit and snide snark
QFT, and pretty funny how the post right after yours provides plain evidence.
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>>86867590
So what I'm hearing is, Dan did more for this artist than you have, and you're mainly trying to get that stopped?

Satan couldn't invent a more destructive devil than the self-righteous western progressive.
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>>86867887
>Sort of true, as most exploitation involves systemic pressure. Like people worked in the "dark, satanic mills" of the Industrial Revolution not because they liked it, but because enclosure laws and vagrancy laws and etc had basically destroyed the self-sufficiency and barter economy that had once existed, leaving people no other choice.

Even so, that's not exactly the factory owner's fault unless he lobbied for enclosure laws. (In which case, castigate him for that, not for owning a factory)
>>
I like OSR but don't like how samey characters of the same class feel. I wish there were some kind of build variety.
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>>86864537
Consider the humble Dark Elf, unless those "water-flooded tunnels" are too long to hold your breath.
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>>86868850
Make more classes. This is unironically the best addition to a game, and the one place it's weird new material doesn't do more. I guess it's because "More than 4 classes plus race-as-class" feels too much like AD&D but there's literally nothing preventing you from adding a psionicist, swashbuckler or ninja.

"But a Ninja is just a thief!" Right and a thief is just a fighting man that doesn't wear armor and gets a bonus to surprise rolls. Come now, we can do better.
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>>86868850
Build variety actively goes against old-school spirit in my humble opinion. What I like about OSR is that I can teach new players about roleplaying games in 10 minutes, create a character in 6 dicerolls, and tell people "your special power is hitting things good with sword" so that they'll think with their human brains and not their character sheet.
Players who come at my table from 3.5 and beyond often focus too much on "character abilities", while new players think up creative strategies and get super involved in their characters.
As >>86868888 said I'd recommend making more classes. I like the way ACKS classes work a lot, especially with the Player's Companion.
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>>86868832
Many of them did. But point is, it's exploitation if you find someone in a desperate situation and get them to agree to a shitty deal they never would otherwise take. It's exploiting their desperation. Like the Roman noble who started the first fire-fighting organization, who would offer to save your life's possessions if you sold him your real estate at literal fire-sale prices, that went down the longer you waited. (Though the solution in that case would have been for someone else to get into the business and compete, ending his monopoly and ruining his ability to squeeze people into predatory deals)

But if someone offers you a deal, and you accept, as in the case of the Argentinian artist above who's asking what he considers a good price, that's not exploitation.
>>
>>86868859
I want to avoid intelligent humanoids other than Troglodytes.

The idea is that there is a dungeon under a castle, and that dungeon connects to a set of natural caves, and those caves connect to the Underdark by a series of natural caves, flooded caverns, and deep chasms. Basically a route impassable by humans (and PCs), but which creepy crawlies can come crawling up.

The issue is, of course, that most standard creepy crawlies of the underdark will be too powerful for a 2nd to 4th level party. So I'm fishing for some obscure creatures I am not aware of.
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>>86868929
Giant chinese salamandra? That seems to fit your bill. Slap 4 to 6HD on this bad boy, a venomous bite, and you should be good for a scary encounter.
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>>86868949
That's a good one. I will use that.
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>>86867518
Looks cool, but did he mention how he plans to take it up against OSE? How will he innovate?
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>>86868850
I know it might be sacrilegious, but I like having a basic feat system in place.
Nothing that comes near the autistic shitfest seen at 3.X, but just a tiny bit of flavor.
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>>86869026
There are also some other collections.
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>>86868908
>Build variety actively goes against old-school spirit in my humble opinion

You can have a thousand classes and no build variety because you don't have any *builds.*

The thing that goes against the spirit of old school is builds - the idea of sitting down and deciding at level 1 what you'll be doing at level 20

2E AD&D had a bit of it with dual classing and kits, and a bit more when Weapon Specialization was expanded in Combat and Tactics into Weapon Mastery, but 3E with Feats and Prestige Classes was where it really took off, where you had to consider where to put your feats and skill points from levels 1 through 5 to qualify for the Fart Master at level 6.

D&D's probably greatest strength is the fact that it's class-based, not point-buy, you just pick a class and you're ready to play with an archetype that slots right into the game. The more additional dross you add to that process in skill selection, thief ability percentage distribution, race/class combination advantages and (spits) Feat requirements, the worse you make it. You might as well play GURPS at that point and actually let people customize their characters entirely.

But just adding campaign-appropriate classes is no problem.
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>>86869112
Lmao I forgot the word I wanted to put in first up top:

"Exactly."
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>>86868999
The short answer is no. Dan has said he will bring all new art, cleaned up layout and generally bring LL 2nd Ed more in line with the original BX game. Though clerics will retain 1st level spells.
In the early days of the OSR, LL was the market leader of BX retro clones. It was Dan Proctor’s market to lose and years of neglect allowed BX Essentials aka OSE to fill the void in the marketplace.
>>
>>86869112
Actually, let me just real quick add something here:

I played in a game that had a feat system added on top and it worked fine.

Because we were all Fighters. We played a viking game where the only real magic we saw was in the fantastic monsters we faced and in the NPC skjald who sailed with our ship and chanted for the favor of the gods.

Because we were all Fighters, a few other customization points felt necessary so we weren't completely alike. One guy had Odin's favor, I don't remember exactly what it did for him but it wasn't major, one guy could track real well and my character, a fisherman when we weren't out a-viking, got to re-roll failed rolls for nautical activities.
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>>86869137
Hmmmm. Maybe he'll try to make up for it with elusive 'sovl'.
>>
>>86869189
Do you think this is better done with a feat system, or with tailor-made fighter subclasses?
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>>86868850
Think about this first.

How many character builds in other games are actually "different"? Are they really or are there 95 trap options and 5 "optimal" options?

You'll probably realize that "variety" is not a real thing because nobody really likes characters that have gimmick builds anyway after the first two sessions playing one.
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>>86869369
>Do you think this is better done with a feat system, or with tailor-made fighter subclasses?

I think I don't want to give you an answer because it depends so heavily on what you've got going on. For us, the fisherman/tracker/godbotherer trifecta worked fantastically as just "you all make a fighter and then get A Thing Extra." No idea what'll work for you and your campaign.
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>>86869602
>Are they really or are there 95 trap options and 5 "optimal" options?
This is definitely one of the reasons I hate 3E and all following editions. I've still got the chops to make optimal 3E characters but I sure wish I didn't, what a waste of my twenties that decade was.
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>>86869602
Ivory Tower Design is retarded, yes. It doesn't mean classes and builds HAVE to be that way though.
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>>86869602
You only need class 1, 2, 3 and type A and B
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>>86867328
that sounds like a pretty good idea. in terms of effort to effect rate in terms of possible death. as well as dripfeeding.
>>
It's been fun Kevin, but it's time to abandon this system before it's too late.
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>>86867518
"I roll to detect the dragon's sex."
"We're doing OSR, we don't roll for that."
"I pull up my robe and show my tits"
"...male"
>>
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>>86871589
>Xindai
>Guer
>Runom
I forget the word/phrase to describe this sensation, but it's when a bunch of shit gets thrown at you in quick succession that you have no frame of reference for so your brain just turns off completely. The sentence becomes complete gibberish.
>>
>>86870535
And yet they always are that way.
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>>86871629
noun soup
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>>86869112
>>86868908
agreed.

I think a dirth of classes goes against the purpose. I personally think that actual differentiation should be done through item aquisition, and potentially, if its done well, in-universe skill learning. So you dont say "because im a 12 level x I get the ability y". No, its because you learned y and the gm thinks thats a justifiable thing for you to do.

I
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>>86871649
think you mean word soup.
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>>86862862
http://jrients.blogspot.com/2010/06/imperishable-fame-part-1.html
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>>86862862
I fucking HATE Bactrians.
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>>86871629
From the standpoint of someone who likes to extract stuff from his books and use it elsewhere, Atlas of the Latter Earth has almost nothing to use. I was really hoping there might be a lot of tables for generating weird shit regions. I guess I'll just have to use Silent Legions instead.
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>>86871722
Shit yeah - dromedary for life!

>>86871728
Nice map dude.
Pretty sure I live on Tavat.
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>>86872029
Ah - thats the WWN community map, I think?
Still nice.
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>>86843482
People will never talk about this, but monster entries have a lair % chance which is usually not baked into B/X or most of its clones.
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>>86871589
Godbound had mentions of creating animal-headed humans and Stars Without Number has a legit Anthropomorphs world tag. I have always had a sneaking suspicion Kevin Crawford is a furry.
At the very least, you're totally free to roll up a raiding party from Sarx to kidnap Runomian beastfolk and take them back to sacrifice to your gods. Would probably be fun fighting viet cong furries and aiming their petty squabbles against one another.
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>>86865938
Create two warring factions of gnomes or some other good aligned race so players will be more likely to talk to them.

One faction has access to a mushroom grove in a deeper part of the dungeon where food might be a pain in the ass, the other has access to magical scrolls.

Throw a rumor of a basilisk lair or some other scary monster that they won't be able to power through to maybe get some other response from them.
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>>86872218
>fighting the internet war against furries
>in your tabletop campaign
>in the year of our lord 2022
Looks like SomethingAwful's Rip Van Winkle just woke up from 2006. Hey grandpa, guess what? Nobody gives a shit anymore! Relax!
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>>86872306
>STOP DOING THINGS I DON'T LIKE! STOP IT!
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>>86872306
But anon, I am a furry.
I just think it'd be an interesting campaign premise, given the ideas presented in both nations' writeups in the setting.
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>>86872358
Just saying, that's weirdly obsessive, and you should probably rethink your choices in life.
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>>86872533
>is a furry
>weirdly obsessive
Okay, that checks out. Nevermind
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>>86872549
You're not wrong. It's not a campaign I'd run, myself. I'm instead thinking about a solo campaign as an usagi beastfolk wandering the xindai commanderies.
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>>86867518
SOVL
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>>86872582
sounds like we got a based Usagi Yojimbo enjoyer in here
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Still working on my reimagining of Palace of the Silver Princess, which is now the Cursed Castle. Maps are finished, now begins stocking the dungeon. 102 rooms to detail! Woo hoo!
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>>86873112
Interesting. So what's your approach? Are you just using the map and reinventing everything else from scratch, or is it more tied to the original?
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>>86873249
That's an entirely different map from L1 of PotSP
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>>86873249
It's a completely new map, which is less random and has more thought put into its history and function. Also a very strong emphasis on non-linear exploration -- there's a lot of ways to move through this dungeon. Basically, the only thing I'm really keeping from the original module is the idea of a magical castle that was built for a princess and has been cut off from the world by a magical forcefield, with multiple mysteries to solve within.
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>>86873269
Ah. Okay.

>>86873314
Sounds cool.
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>>86873486
There's also a few key encounters I'm keeping, like the decapus in the room full of columns and the magical garden of vampire roses. The idea is to capture the feel of PotSP but being sufficiently different that someone who has played PotSP will be surprised.
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>>86871655
I mean I said "a thousand classes" but if you actually have a thousand classes in your game, you are fucking up. It's just a different thing you are fucking up.
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>>86867518
Disappointed.
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>>86875612
>>86875612
New thread.
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>>86868579
You were asking for weird sources that could be in underwater rooms. If you don't think
>giant centipedes
>lemurs
>giant toads
>troglodytes
>gelatinous cubes
>ghouls
>ochre jellies
>GIANT TICKS
are weird, you're doing it wrong and that's before we change anything about them or add in ways to have characters, or gas spores floating above the surface or in the water like mines. When was the last time you used a dragon? Likely never, especially a smaller one.
You were asking for content with a leach like prompt, for us to do your thinking for you. If you had posted your obvious solutions you are oh so educated with and brimming with experience in, probably should have mentioned that. Ideally so we could see how much of an entitled bitchboy you are and ignore you entirely.
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>>86875660
>If you don't think [standard MM entries] are weird, you're doing it wrong
lol, okay.

>When was the last time you used a dragon? Likely never, especially a smaller one.
Using small dragons is the lamest thing in the world. If a third level party can defeat a dragon, then the DM has made dragons pansies.

>You were asking for content with a leach like prompt, for us to do your thinking for you.
Fuck you, fuck your awful attitude, and fuck you again, buddy. The whole fucking point of these forums is to crowdsource advice and share. "Entitled bitchboy?" You fucking faggot, your entire worldview is fucked beyond recognition. It's too late for you, you worthless sack of boring dogshit. Go take your "giant centipedes are WEEEEEEIRD" and your 3 HD dragons and shove them both up your ass and then die of rectal cancer, you stupid, pointless fucking waste of time and energy. Kill yourself.



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