Why is Warhammer's fluff/lore/canon all so dumb? Across all of its settings it feels like there was/is a competition to write the stupidest shit possible.yes i know it's all meant to sell you toys
>>86827034Post your models.
>>86827034You clearly haven't read anything written by any major or minor comic company, anything to do with old star wars, anything to do with doctor who or anything to do with DnD, warhammer is joyfully boring and consistent and mudane by comparison.
>>86827044x being stupid doesn't excuse y being stupid
>>86827034Why do you care so much about the lore of a game you don't play
>>86827034Sci-fi and fantasy has to be stupid It’s the rulesIf it wasn’t dumb, it would be boring
>>86827034It all went to shit when HE left. GW should unironically bring HIM back.
>>86827067Fantasy is unironically better boring. It doesn't need to be a bunch of woooOOOoooWWWhhhOOOO waaaaAAAAaaacky gonzo crap.
>>86827034The actual worldbuilding and lore set down in the first 2-3 editions of the game is god tier. The problem is you're reading the newfag shit added on after all the real writers left.
>>86827249Ahh, see someone whom hasn't actually read neither early nor modern stuff, fun.
>>86827249FB and 40k were pretty stupid from the getgo, and weren't very different from what they are now. 40k's changed more dramatically than FB but still, neither made much sense at all at any point. It was always the people in the setting doing the dumbest possible things against their own self interests in order to justify everyone being at war, set to a backdrop of broody teen angst where everything sucks and everyone's fucked.
>>86827034Do you have an opinion you didn't copy paste from embarrassing internet forums? You reek of a pretentious faggot in his 20s.
>>86827327Yeah, and it was based. Early 40k and the rogue trader products were influenced by actual science fiction novels and a healthy dose of 2000 AD, and while the writers were clearly not at the same level they at least got the joke and figured out what the point of all the satire was. So when they copy-pasted all that shit and threw it into a blender, it still came out with the same kind of ridiculous fun that was the whole point. Now they're afraid of all this copyright bullshit or making sense or somehow contradicting anything that's happened in 40 years of shitty writing which means everything just accelerates into being complete shit.
>>86827047It makes your claim that Warhammer is the "stupidest shit possible" look stupider than anything GW have written.>>86827327>It was always the people in the setting doing the dumbest possible things against their own self interestsSounds like you don't understand that people in the setting don't have access to the same information about the setting that you do. I don't know how you can process any kind of fiction with that level of idiocy.
It 40k removed all the grimderp shit or the dumb obsession with melee, it would be fineNobody cares if shuriken catapults would not actually work but if you have a bareheaded guy swinging a dysfunctional piece of metal at railguns, someone has clearly been retarded
>>86827542Yeah, you for not appreciating it.
>>86827034Bring back CS Goto
>>86827518>Sounds like you don't understand that people in the setting don't have access to the same information about the setting that you doPeople don't need metaknowledge to know that putting their hand on a lit stove will burn, they need braincells, which every character in every Warhammer setting completely lacks.
>>86827090as much of a faggot he was, he now seems to have been the only faggot countering faggotry of adb or gav thorpe
DON'T CAREBE SURE TO BUY MY NEXT ELDAR NOVEL WHERE I'M GONNA MAKE THE ELDAR SUCK ASS AND DO THE MOST RETARDED SHIT -GAV THORPE
>>86827034It's not meant to sell toys (that's the fluff in the Codexes, Campaign and Rulebooks). It's there to sell more schlock to autists who often don't even play the game. The problem is that it effects the settings tone as a whole. BL schlock is the worst thing to have happened to this hobby. Just a bunch of bald guys with glasses wanting to leave their mark on a beloved setting
>>86827997People complain about chaoswank, but I think the eldar antiwank might be worse. Warhammer does absolutely everything it can to fuck over, spite, and otherwise make every elf/eldar eat shit and act retarded as much as humanly possible, except for deldar/delves who get wanked off because evul iz kewl.
>>86828048I think humans who don't identify as eldar simply get butthurt at the natural superiority of the eldar. It's the same reason why autistics get no pity from otherwise virtue signaling neurotypicals. They fear superior intellect.
>>86827034Zoomer writing and narrative injection.Warhammer wasn't dumb originally. It started shifting focus and became progressively dumber along the way.They should have stopped at 3.5 lore, if not earlier.
>>86827997>DON'T CARE>BE SURE TO BUY MY NEXT ELDAR NOVEL WHERE I'M GONNA MAKE THE ELDAR SUCK ASS AND DO THE MOST RETARDED SHIT>-GAV THORPEIt's strange: back in the day I hated Eldar because of tabletop shenanigans and their fluff always being "oh no you stopped our just as planned now shit will be even worse for you!" fluff, but the current state of them constantly getting shit on in the most retarded ways possible really pisses me off way more.
>>86828137Eldar were always like that. You just never noticed until it accumulated to Nurgle-sized pile.
>>86827966To be honest it seems obvious to me that, with the 5e Marines Codex in particular, someone fucked him about and he ended up taking the fall for a studio fuckup.
We need to wind it back
>>86827034Because if you're trying to seriously engage with the fluff, understanding character motivations or trying to find some meaningful undertone, you're already putting in more thought into warhammer ""lore"' than the vast majority of warhammer writers and designers over the years. It's literally all a giant machine to sell you plastic toys, it's not here to get you to think or whatever but to give you light entertainment that makes you think about their products.
>>86828843What the fuck is that image. That's the most contrived bullshit ever
>>86828925Are you stupid? How is it contrived that GW clearly named a bunch of shit in references to other works?
>>86827034Can 40k beat a dalek and flumph though? That's the real question the lore needs to address
>>86829021Dalek? easilyFlumph tho? Not so much
I just want to add that all of the posts saying that warhammer lore used to be soooo much better are either "old good nu bad" contrarians or grogs with rose-tinted glasses mixing up nostalgia for their youth with good writing.I was searching for some obscure tidbits of fluff yesterday and had to read through the entire Perilous Quest expansion for WFB 5th ed (1997). Now I'm not saying that I'm expecting campaign expansions, which are in essence just a vehicle for new game scenarios and mechanics to have deep and meaningful narratives worthy of actual novels. Indeed I'm perfectly happy with a lot of expansions that provide you with at most paragraphs of fluff, quickly explaining why army A and B are here and want to beat the shit out of each other.The problem with PQ is that Stillman really thought he had something there and bulked the book with pages and pages of the blandest writing known to man. It features the most bowlderized arthurian style tale with the absolutely milquetoast progression of "brave and honourable knight bravely and honourably fights until he becomes a GK, end of story". If this wasn't warhammer branded I don't think it'd ever even make it onto the back of a cereal box, nevermind a whole 50 page bound paperback.The whole thing was clearly written for an audience of under 12 yo boys, can we please stop pretending ye olde 90s WFB was some sort of work of artistic genius?
>>86829060We need to bring back inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Closeau. GW needs to regain its SOVL
>>86829060This. If you think Warhammer lore was any better in Ye Olde Days, you're mistaken. Assuming you hate Warhammer today for specific reasons, all of the most common ones (MCU-tier characters, grimderp, chaoswank, general factionwank, pop culture memes, political inserts) were no different back then. It was all there, to varying degrees but still present.
>>86829098"MCU characters" were no where near as prevalent back then as they are now.But I grant you the rest, its always been poorly written scifi shlock.
>>86829177>"MCU characters" were no where near as prevalent back then as they are now.I agree there. You didn't have whole novels focused on them.
>>86829098>It was all there, to varying degrees but still present.This is one of the dumbest things I've read in a while.How exactly do you manage to write out a post saying that people can't claim there's any notable difference between new and old lore, then finish your asshattery off by claiming that it was to varying degrees?Do you not think the degree of chaoswank or political inserts might have a notable impact on the palatability of things?
>Kr'Zxt: My Lord, welcome to the future. I, Kr'Zxt, your humble machine servant, stand ready to serve. I will now make my report. Your escucitation was a complete success. Engram integrity at 96.97%. We can replace what little was lost with simulacrum circuitry. The attunement process will take but a few hundred cycles. Stasis chamb->Lord Khimrhotep: I have an itch on the inside of my metal skull.>Kr'Zxt: *sigh* not again...>*Lord blows his head off and gets rebuilt again*
>>86828048>>86828137It's really irritating because it involves consistently putting contradictory attitudes next to each other>our dwindling population is precious and we cannot afford to risk eldar lives outside of the most dire of circumstances>anyways let's all run directly at the enemyLike someone high up is mandating that "empire in decline" actually mean "empire actively flinging itself down the stairs"
>>86827034Wrong and also you're not qualified to call anything shit or dumb you bottom of the barrel pleb. >"yes i know it's all meant to sell you toys" Low IQ take from seething morons, no wonder you're so dumb.
>>86831330>in a skirmish in a particular placeyou ever play epic son?
>>86827040If you buy or own plastic crap, you're a decadent subhuman and deserve humiliation and swift death.
>>86828009I have a built army and want to play the game, but I'm focused on painting for now. To fill out my Battle Honours book I need to find some Black Library stuff. Anything on the list you'd consider worthwhile? I'm tempted to look into the Caiphas Cain books because the idea of a bit of more comedy driven stuff in regards to the Imperium could be fun. You may find it ironic for me to ask someone who hates BL, but that means that if you do like anything, it'd have to be good enough to get through that initial bias.
>>86827034We should bring back Ian Watson
>>86827034Do you have a preferred response to an oblique line? How many skirmishing units do you use? What traditional games do you play, anon?
The lore is trash because it now caters to ultra soft pansies who want female space marines.
Matt ward wasn't that bad
>>86827034GW's suits have largely driven out its better writers/creatives, leaving them with secondaries and tertiaries drawn from the fanbase; sometimes even quaternaries. The most valued characteristic of a modern GW writer is that they'll write a few lines about whatever $350 Tau battlesuit they want to sell. Much like how the only trait they value in artists is "will draw a picture of a model kid for $5 and won't expect to get their signature on it," this results in lower-quality material.
>>86836037Matt Ward is better in Fantasy than 40k, and he's better at character stuff than event stuff. You look at the rat-pat games and he did a solid job with the writing there.
>>86827034because it a fucking mass product intended for kids and teenagers, solid 80% of lore is ripoff of other popular sci-fi/fantasy IPs. why care? want some actually good sci fi stuff then you have dozens of good novels outside wh40k universum
>>86828925>>8682884340k and Fantasy used to do pop culture and historical referential gags with EVERYTHING.
Grimederp Dune with starship troopers can only get you so far. As the setting grew it became more and more grimderp and as a result more retarded. Just chaos and orks are laughably one dimensional antagonists.
>>86836084not an argument
>>86836084>everything i dont like is shill
>>86827034It isn't any dumber than other popular science fantasy settings like Star Wars and Trek.
>>86827034They hired mouthbreathers as writers.
>>86827374>Yeah, and it was basedIt was cringe and it is cringe still even now.Teenage angst shit is always bad, only people who like it are teenagers or people who are mentally stunted at a level of a angsty 15 year old.
>>86828009>It's not meant to sell toys (that's the fluff in the Codexes, Campaign and Rulebooks).No one would play or care about 40k if no one cared about the fluff.40k's rules have always been dog shit.Only thing that keeps people going is the setting and BL is the one that matters in that regard.And acting like it doesn't and bitching that BL isn't canon, is just you acting like a 9 year old child that shoves his thumbs in his ears and goes "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"
It is what it is
>>86827542Single most faggot opinion in the thread
>>86843041He is still right tho. Except for the melee part, melee is cool.Grimderp is just cringly bad shit that only appeals to mentally stunted tards who never grew out of their edgelord teenager phase.
>>86827034People like you deserved being gatekeep
>>86827060Retard woman argument.
>>86827034>yes i know it's all meant to sell you toysThen I don't understand why you started the thread.You've got the reason right there.Bad form, OP.
>>86844834They are consistent, space marines are just big knightly dudes in power armor with big guns.Primaris didn't change that.
>>86845718>Imperium is technologically stagnant or regressive>BTW, here's a whole bunch of improved marines along with their improved gear and vehicles
thats what you get when you have a setting building on itself for 30+ years
>>86841423Then what are you doing in Warhammer, turd?Fuck off from our hobby and don't come back.
>>86845736They aren't new tho.They are pre-existing techonology that Cawl at best made longer.Or bolted together like an ork. He invented about as much new shit as an ork mek does.
>>86845809It's not yours either.You just have shit taste and that you've also gaslighted yourself into liking.But what would you expect from mentally stunted children.
>>86844824Grimderp helps the overblown aesthetic. The only good and unique thing about warhammer is its aesthetic. Trying to turn it into normal, sensible sci fi is beyond retarded.
>>86845950Grimderp doesn't help it.Grimdark is good, grimderp is always retarded no mattet how you spin it.It's why it is called grimderp in the first place newfag.
>>86845887But it is. I know what I like, I call out what went wrong, I don't get lost in the shit like you do.>calls something shit>comes back to eat it and scream at others about shit tastesIt's very simple, it's not shit, and you are mentally ill degenerate, envying the hobbyists genuine interest, and so trying to tarnish it.Begone and gorge yourself on shit that is your taste somewhere else.
>>86845880>grav tanks>"pre-existing techonology that Cawl at best made longer"
>>86846212Exactly. Cawl sat on his ass on Terra, exactly where all the good stuff could be hoarded in one place.Custodians had grav-rhinos, remember?
>>86846212Yeah.He literally just took the bolt gun and gave it a longer barrel.This is like saying I invented something new if I took an AK-47 and slapped a longer barrel on it.I didn't invent shit, I literally just put a longer barrel on an AK.And Cawl then just took anti-grav tech that already existed, and decided to bolt it onto a landraider and a rhino. Does it look good? Hell no. But it isn't anything new.like Imperium literally bolts shit onto servo-skulls of all things, it is not rare in the slightest.
>>86846038Grimdark isn't good either imo. "Oh man, everything sucks and nothing you do matters because it's all pointless and shit" comes off as juvenile whining and has the unsurprising side effect of making everything seem pointless. One of Warhammer's biggest flaws as a setting is that the forces of Law/Order are all hapless schmucks who are doomed to die against Chaos, and Chaos doesn't even break a sweat in the process. It paints the picture that fighting for anything but Chaos is a fool's endeavor.
>>86829060You're right until you bashed Stillman. Literally the only good GW fluffwriter there ever was. Generic Arthurian knights is better than Bretonnia being a bunch of inbred cowardly retards, and his fantasy art ideas were better than just "haha skulls everywhere". May be coincidence, but Stillman apparently didn't like Chaos's lore or models.
>>86847057Tell me why Cawl didn't reinvent Jetbikes then
>>86847135He just doesn't like jetbikes.Or he was lazy, the guy is autistic too.
It began as a parody setting and then the fanboys that were too stupid to get it were the only ones both available and willing to become the next generation of writers and designers at GW. So they started writing it without parody and constantly trying to outdo each other, so now we have this mess that confirms and supports everything it previously mocked and lampooned.
>>86847209>cawl is heckin' lazy and neurodivergent XDDDDDDDDark Age tech is difficult to modify because no one knows how it functions anymore
>>86847246>Dark Age tech is difficult to modifyIt isn't.Arkhan Land modified the Land Raider designs so they can be used by space marines.Also there are tons of dark age tech shit that imperium uses and modifies on the regular, like lasguns.That's the reason why there's like 50 million patterns of the damn things, the gun itself is easy to make and design.Also it's the same reason why there's like 24 variants of the baneblade, all of them are based on the baneblade STC.But it is the battery packs themselves they do not understand, since they hold insane amounts of energy within them while having you being able to charge them using anything, from a wall outlet to body heat to even just throwing that laspack into a campfire for few moments.While also making it so that the battery is safe to handle considering how much energy is inside the battery, if you know anything about what kind of damage of a damaged/ruptured mdoern day lithium battery does you can see why laspacks are a miracle.
>>86847115To each their own but I do really ask you to actually go read through that expansion, because it really is indefensible imho. I don't know who wrote the one page stories in the 5th ed Bret AB, but they're miles ahead of this shlock.
>>86847998How is it anything super bad or something? The most I see about Stillman's criticism is it's very generic, but like I said some people prefer generic Arthur knights over grimderp skullfuck the 3rd's gigantc chaos warrior regiment.
>>86847057>And Cawl then just took anti-grav tech that already existed, and decided to bolt it onto a landraider and a rhino. Does it look good? Hell no. But it isn't anything new.The absence of earlier grav-tanks indicates that there are weight limits to imperial grav technology. They can make speeders and other light craft, at great enough expense that they are super rare, but add enough weight and it stops working. He would have to have invented something new, because otherwise it would have been done before.
I remember making a joke about how Tsons and Necrons would get along because they're both into Ancient Egypt on the reddit warhammer discord and some guy sperged out. Left the channel immediately they're all fags
>>86834697It doesn't cater to me.
>>86846038They're the same thing. Grimdark is simply an overblown dark setting. Hence why the name is essentially "dark dark". People who want it to be another generic sci fi setting just call anything unique about it grimderp. "Its too dark theres no point, thats silly etc etc" Nigger that is what makes warhammer warhammer. If you don't like it go and consoom literally anything else. Because the stuff you're complaining about is what warhammer was built around to begin with. Its like complaining that star wars is too fantastical and not enough of a gritty military sci fi setting. That is the point, stop missing it just because you don't personally enjoy or like it.
>>86850259>"Its too dark theres no point, thats silly etc etc" Nigger that is what makes warhammer warhammerI seriously don't get why you'd like a setting where the point is everything about it's pointless.>If you don't like it go and consoom literally anything elseWell yeah, but WHY people even like it is the question. And you say that's what Warhammer is and why people like it but that seems to be the #1 criticism, the grimderp. But then 40k and AoS get criticized for not being grimdark enough. Some complain about Imperiumwank, some complain about Chaoswank. It's like the Warhammer fanbase is a hydra where all the heads are yelling at each other and no one can coherently explain why they like the lore.
>>86847101>>86850259The setting isn't even -that- grimdark, in spite of coining the term. Obviously it depends on who's writing, but the galaxy is full of peaceful, relatively normal places. There's plenty of room for real heroes doing meaningful good, even if no one is going to solve every problem in the galaxy.
>>86850467>There's plenty of room for real heroes doing meaningful goodNothing's meaningful when Chaos can obliterate the galaxy any time, and do so eventually and unstoppably per almost every writer. Like I said in >>86847101 the grimdark/grimderp/grimwhatever sucks in any of Warhammer's three settings, because only one side wins and everybody else are suckers for even putting up a fight.
>>86850577Not just suckers, but actively helping Chaos, because the more you fight it the stronger it gets. Killing a bunch of daemons or CSMs just buffs Chaos more, and that's what takes it from a bad scifi take on Lovecraft to just plain faction-favoring stupidity.>if chaos wins, it wins>if chaos loses, it wins>if chaos does nothing, it wins
Pointless settting>go to the warp when you die anyway Every character anyone engaging with this IP ever cared about is going to get anal raped by demons for eternity. Yarrik? Yep. All those chapter masters? Yeah. What is the point in this setting?
>>86852657>What is the point in this setting?To have a laff
>>86831330>Like someone high up is mandating that "empire in decline" actually mean "empire actively flinging itself down the stairs"well yeah, have you looked at where they're based?
>>86836054Ok what the fuck defines a tertiary let alone a quantiary
>>86850259Nigga if my faction literally has 0 chance of atleast settling shit to a draw in lore there is 0 point in playing them in game>thats the whole pointIts not it was only during a period before 8th and after 2nd that GW started wanking chaos to insane levels before it was a goofy parody of more and more rediculous dumb stuff so nothing mattered but then 40k took itself seriously and it was just the dumbest shit ever that made 0 sense and it didnt work like before because everything was played straight. settings like that are the most boring shit ever because nothing interesting can ever happen because it always ends up with the same outcome.
>>86853118>Nigga if my faction literally has 0 chance of atleast settling shit to a draw in lore there is 0 point in playing them in gameHave you tried having fun?
>>86853084Another level of separation. Someone who's only played Dawn of War is a secondary, someone who only knows the DoW memes (SPESS MUHREENS, STEEL REHN, METAL BOXES, etc.) would be a tertiary. I can't think of a good example of a quantiary off the top of my head but you get the idea.
>>86853118> 0 point in playingOff you fuck, then
>>86852718>To have a laffNigga, I ain't laughing.
>>86853118>Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.Literally the intro. If this doesn't sound intriguing, then you're right- you won't get 40K and that's okay.Probably just not British enough to see the humour.
>>86827034Because the lore is just there to promote the sale of the models GW wants to sell from week to week to kiddies and manchildren. It's just a narrative advert, not a cohesive and planned story or a true account of history. Getting upset about WH fluff is like getting upset about Ronald McDonald fluff. Get a life.
>>86829092Dont worry, GW is still parodying current scifi today. Most of their vehicles resemble rediculous LEGO and Palitoy, while the Primaris and NuSquats are parodies of Master Chief and Star Craft.
>>86853796And then you find out about the Primaris with all their new tech. Powercreep goes against the entire original setting. It did help selll a lot of figures though....
lol is this nigga still seething over chaos and grimdark? I see him in almost every warhammer thread I click onliterally go find something you enjoy my man, it's clear 40k is not for you
>>86853856>N-n-no! That's not n-new tech... C-cawl just put old stuff to new u-uses... and mass produced it... a... and made better M...arines... bu..but they already existed...
>>86853856Honestly, when I step back and think about it, Space Marine'd Space Marines fit right in with chainsaw swords and full-auto rocket launchers. The concept of someone who could have fixed the galaxy's problems long ago never doing so because "nobody told me to", the straight man of yesteryear being resurrected to witness the horror and stupidity of the current era and the heroes of a thousand campaigns immediately being usurped by randomers would all make excellent sketches if Monty Python had ever done sci-fi.
>>86853118you are a legitimate brainlet
The lore used to just be a mash up of fiction stitched together some good some bad to explain why your dudes were fighting (or party was adventuring).Now it's a multimedia franchise desperate for Hollywood to run out of comics to ruin and come calling with a blank cheque.
>>86853796Britain isn't a whining nation of turbofatalists, or at least it didn't used to be. There's no humor, it's just angst.
>>86855371>Britain isn't a whining nation of turbofatalists, or at least it didn't used to be.Appreciating black humour isn't being a 'turbofatalist'.Watch Mr Bean, The Office or The Thick Of It. There's humour in observing everyday fuckups and suffering taken to ridiculous extremes, and that's why Gretchin, Guardsmen and the Lamenters exist. No faction in 40K is going to "win", they're all in a constant meatgrinder of fights and fuckups so that we can play endless games of toy soldiers with them.Of course, humour's only one facet of 40K; all good 40K components are somehow funny, scary and cool all at once. If you don't appreciate having one or two of those things appearing in your gane, then 40K will be a waste of your precious time.
>>86852657>Every character anyone engaging with this IP ever cared about is going to get anal raped by demons for eternityWhy do you constantly post your disgusting and perverse headcanon on here? Stop
>>86856666Thanks, Turbo Satan.
>>86856666I guess humor is very subjective.
>>86857409I hear a popular definition is that it's tragedy plus time?
>>86828048Dark Eldar don't get fucked like Eldar because Gav Thorpe isn't writing them
>>86831330Big problem with Warhammer aside from the grimderp and factionwank - but kinda blends them - is that characters of every faction (except Chaos) are constantly making the stupidest possible decisions. They'll do things that are completely suicidal and against their own and everyone else's interests for no reason at all, like a bad horror movie but on a galactic scale (or planetary/solar system scale for FB and AoS). They're just grabbing guns and shooting themselves in the foot and flopping over like fish, and despite what people say it's never played for laughs or as parody, it's taken as deathly serious. At most it claims to satirize religion, but a teenager on reddit would embarassed at how shallow and surface-level the Emperor's arguments are in Last Church are about it, yet by the word of the author he's right - both RL and in-setting - and it's a brilliant and serious discussion. I think GW's writers are a mix of incompetent, delusional, and uncaring.