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At first in the early editions of 40k they portrayed the Emperor as this tragic figure, someone who truly cared for and wanted to save humanity but was forced into enacting extreme measures and had everything fall apart around him. Turns out he's a retarded bastard who deserved everything that happened to him.
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>>86815619
Tyrants are seldom good fathers. Look at Vlad and Stalin
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>>86815657
then why did the loyal primarchs (except maybe Khan) love him so much?
if he was a terrible father and a tyrant, they all would've turned against him
it also doesn't make sense that Horus, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Lorgar and Magnus would be so desperate for his love and approval if he was so terrible
the only ones who outright hated him were Angron, Mortarion (because he wronged them) and Konrad (because he's a paranoid schizo)
something doesn't make sense here
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>>86815693
Sang was terrified of him.
Roboute was resentful of the Emperor for making him wrong Lorgar. Roboute's resentment only grew to 40K.
READ the material.
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>>86815746
>read the new, shitty retcons
no thanks
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>>86815528
>Turns out he's a retarded bastard who deserved everything that happened to him.
We need actual details.
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>>86815528
>At first in the early editions of 40k they portrayed the Emperor as this tragic figure
They didn't portray him as anything but dead you liar
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>>86815528
>n the early editions of 40k they portrayed the Emperor as
A rotting corpse on a chair, a testament to folly and pride and the death of grand ambitions.
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>>86815528
>emperor pre-HH books: enigmatic ruler who cared about humanity and now psychically protects them because he was extremely gifted with power
>>even older emperor: either a child brought up by super star senseis in one version or an actual disciple of Jesus in another

>HH emperor and beyond: fedoratipping manchild who got give powers by chaos for lulz and hates everyone and got cucked by his wife, also according to one writer it's his dad fuck you dad i hate you
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>>86817696
Pre HH books the Emperor was a corpse who served as a lighthouse.
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Arch fanboys seething right now the emperor is an asshole only chuds looked up to
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>>86817696
>>86815528
It's crazy to me that you DoW secondaries haven't even read The Last Church. You develop all these le heckin wholesome HFY headcanons without even having absorbed the foundational literature.
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>>86815693
>Mortarion
The Emperor tried to help him, offered to kill the tyrant with him, father and son. Morty told him to fuck off, got clapped, and the Emperor stepped in to save him. If that's wronging him, I'd love to know what doing right by him looks like.
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>>86817735
>you haven't even read literal atheist fanfiction
>>86817710
A lighthouse that gave psychic powers to his followers and repelled Chaos.
>>
Emperor was always planning to become a god everything he did lead to him on the golden throne and he knew it from the very beginning and now he has Chaos in a Check mate.
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>>86817839
doing right is letting both Angron and Mortarion die for their stupidity
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>>86817923
but then the rebellion wouldn't make it to
Terra and he wouldn't complete his precog destiny of ascending to a god.
If Conrad saw it from the start them so did big E
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>>86817943
Didn't Conrad always see the worst possible outcome and then subconsciously try to make it happen to justify his own edginess?
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>>86817971
yeah but he wasnt wrong about the outcomes.
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>>86817943
>the emperor told everyone he wasn't a god and destroyed his webway project and got all his children killed and his empire destroyed because it was all part of his plan to sit in the chair he had access to this whole time
The cope from people who think the Emperor is their real dad is mind boggling
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>>86818283
Webway project was a meme to get Chaos to invade.
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>>86817735
The last church is the opposite of foundational
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>>86815528
It’s because the Black Library authors (especially ADB) have a pathological hatred for their fathers.
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>>86818233
His visions were always right because he actively went out of his way to affirm them and bring them about? Do you not understand how retarded it is to think that? It's like saying "I said you would get shot soon, and here we are half an hour after I said that, having shot you. My prediction was correct".
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>>86815528
good thing the Horus Heresy novels aren't canon
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>>86818488
What was he wrong about and why do you think it was him trying to affirm his visions and not what big E planned all along.
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>>86815528
No he fucking wasnt' dude, I read and play rogue trader 40k, emperor being incompetent prick whom lucked his way into power is literary first lore of his actions we get.
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>>86815887
Not telling Horus and his most trusted Sons about the Webway Project for one. It's very easy, the Emperor and Horus could just go into a secluded room and say something like "Son, I'm going to have to leave the Imperium to you because I'm going to invent a better way of Faster-than-Light Travel that won't depend on the Warp anymore. I'll be very busy so I'm going to trust you with this, but I promise at the end of this we'll have a Father's Day megaparty." Horus was trustable at keeping his friends' secrets, heck he didn't rat out that Sanguinius euthanised Blood Angels who succumbed to the Red Thirst. That would have secured his unending loyalty instead of leaving him doubtful-and hence vulnerable to corruption.

Or generally making Horus Warmaster. He's too insecure. Even he himself wanted Sanguinius for the position.

And generally being that much a bastard of a father to begin with. Just ask Angron for example. Seriously, is for a supposed pinnacle of humanity with an intimate knowledge of psychology and human relationships at its deepest extent he's a total moron when it came to that. Even the loyalist Guilliman, after he woke up 10,000 years later, was disappointed on what his father had become.
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Too many people are speaking heresy. Ours is not the place to question The Emperor, beloved by all.
>Dont ask about the Thunder Warriors
>Dont ask why some people say there were 18 primarchs instead of 9
>Dont ask why other people say there were 20
>Dont ask what happened to the other perpetuals
>Dont ask about the Emperor's views on theology
>If you must ask anything, instead ask what more you can do for the Imperium
The small mind is easily filled with faith. The Emperor Protects.
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>>86817735
That's because Last Church is garbage. The Emperor uses some of the weakest arguments against religion. The kind of arguments that a 15-year old who just discovered /r/atheism would use.

>Religion gives my people peace
>But think of all the harm it has done. It's only a matter of time before you turn into violent crusaders.
>Now join me. My atheist army need to go on a violent crusade against religion.

When he should have said
>Divine claims require evidence on your behalf. Making these claims without evidence is no different than claiming to be a doctor and selling regular water as a healing tonic.
>And also, belief in our universe empowers emotions within the realm we use for space travel. If those become powerful enough, they can cause physical harm to our reality. That is what caused Old Night. To prevent these powers from growing, I am launching a crusade to eliminate alien religions that might cause a second Old Night.
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>>86818864
Your answer implies the Emperor gives a shit about human life. He does not care about what people think. However, people believing in religion can empower his rivals in the Great Game. He should have just leveled with the dude.
>Look asshole, religions all more or less lead to powering these rape entities in another dimension. If you dont cut the shit out, some pink hermaphrodite with crab claws is going to impale you on its 3 foot member. You dont want that right?
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>>86815528
The crucifixion of the Emperor was horrible. The worst though was how every idiot describes him as a "bad father" when he did no meet any of his kids until they were at least in their 30s. He didn't raise them but when he found them he brought them into his plan and game them some of the most important jobs in the Empire. Not only that but even as the Horus Heresy novels try to make the Emperor seem like a horrible person...he only caused one Primarch directly to fall to Chaos.
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>>86819482
He was just elon musk in space that was pawn to both chaos gods and malkador. Dude was another barbarian from terra, that had delusion of grandure.
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>>86818555
Because one assumes malice on the part of the Emperor, and the other is just reliant on Kurze being the fatalist he was.
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>>86819578
No Malice he was right that this is the only path for Humanity otherwise the warpgods would have corrupted it all, now they are trapped in a stalemate Kruz was just to Emo to understand.
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>>86819597
So what was the point of the Webway Project then?
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>>86819612
Bait.
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>>86815746
Sanguinius was only terrified because he worried that his legion might be purged because of the Thirst.

Papa Smurf is a bit different, because he never saw the Emperor as a parent. He only ever saw Konor as his father. And he was far, far too forgiving of Lorgar’s Monarchia fault and too willing to blame the Emperor for it, he is thinking differently in 40K era about it. Of course, that’s also after Calth, which definitely soured him on Lorgar.

>>86815693
Most of the loyal ones didn’t love him so much as respect him. They acknowledged him as a father, but had actual family who raised them well before meeting him.

>Dorn always slept with his Inwit parent’s furs
>Russ was raised by wolves and then a chieftain parent
>Ferrus unknown to be fair
>Vulkan raised by family and taught Promethean Creed
>Lion “loyalty is its own reward” also spent childhood being tempted by Chaos and refused to break
>Guilliman had Konor, and a mother
>Sanguinius adopted by parents
>Khan had an adoptive father (and avenged his death too)
>Corax raised by loving adoptive parents/family

Then you have the traitors:

>Horus a street rat orphan gang chief
>Fulgrim actually okay (until “lol daemon blade”)
>Magnus never had a parent or peer figure
>Pert just used like a tool
>Morty and his seethe against his adoptive father
>Lorgar unironically beaten repeatedly as a child and adult, genuine abuse
>Curze was fucked up and an orphan
>Angron a gladiator slave

The key seems to be that the Primarchs who were raised “reasonably well” or better, with kindness and love, turned out more emotionally stable. There are a exceptions on either side, but the general rule seems to prevail: a “stable” family and childhood with a mother and father is better than the other option.
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>>86818864
>The Emperor uses some of the weakest arguments against religion.

That's the whole point. McNeill spells it out verbatim.
>"I wanted to end the story in a way that, while Uriah might have been wrong, he was the one you liked better and who came out with the apparent moral high ground. The Emperor was right, yet he came across as the arrogant, short-sighted tyrant – the very kind he rails against in the story."
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>>86818233
>>86817971
Curze was unable to realise that he only saw possible futures. His mistake was thinking it was deterministic, when it wasn’t. Sanguinius proves to him that it’s possible to view, and thus work to bring about, other futures than what Curze insisted on, and the realisation horrifies him. The Emperor later forgives him and apologised, right before he dies.
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>>86819850
McNeil is a shit writer and it's hilarious that he's legitimately one of the better BL authors.
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>>86819846
>Pert just used like a tool
Perturabo was taken in and given literally everything he wanted, encouraged to pursue his passion for architecture and engineering, and groomed to rule when his adoptive father died. He chose to focus in on an inconsequential detail, that Dammekos was using him to better his city, and ignore all the benefits he enjoyed because that didn't suit his narrative that he was the victim of cruelty and abuse. He was given a legion of soldiers who adored him the moment they met him, and he forced them to beat each other to death. He then used them in a fashion less intelligent than fucking Angron and blamed that on everyone else too. He deliberately behaved like an utter cunt to his brothers, like the time he invented something for Magnus that would have invalidated navigators entirely, only to destroy it in front of Magnus solely to maximize the cuntishness of the action which he justified by saying "it was the only way you'd understand".
Fuck him, he's a spoiled trust fund kid whining that he had to do things that helped other people just as much as they did himself. If he was abused then I wish my father had done the same to me.
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>>86815528
anybody that isn't the profoundly retarded target market for BL novellas could see what was going to happen when their stable of piss-poor writers took to character driven fiction
even if GW hired editors that actually edited instead of seemingly being used as sit-down money for relatives of higher-ups (because they sure as shit don't edit the steaming turds BL pumps out) there's really only a small fraction of works that would be salvageable
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>>86819621
So the Imperium degenerating into a backwards totalitarian dystopia that makes 1984 look like a nursery and where he was worshipped as a God (the future Horus ironically tried to prevent) was all part of his plan all along? That he lied about promising to bring a utopia of science and reason, and free humanity from the Warp through the Webway? That humanity's 10,000 years of suffering was all to feed himself to become a God? In this context I can say the Emperor is, in fact, the biggest villain of the 40k universe.
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>>86815528
nigga what?
did you unironically fall for the ecclesiarchy propaganda as the reader?
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>>86818936
>If you dont cut the shit out, some pink hermaphrodite with crab claws is going to impale you on its 3 foot member. You dont want that right?
Hold on there bucko, that would be a transphobic argument and that's not allowed in CURRENT YEAR!
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>>86819923
>, like the time he invented something for Magnus that would have invalidated navigators entirely, only to destroy it in front of Magnus solely to maximize the cuntishness of the action which he justified by saying "it was the only way you'd understand".
when was this and what device was it?
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>>86821274
> No, bruh, you don't understand, he was sure had no choice, even though everyone he trusted around him told him he was making bad choices but he was right because trust me bruh
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>>86819923
This is basically hate Perturabo but love the idea of loyalist Iron Warriors who turned their back on cause he’s such a dick head. It doesn’t help he’s inconsistently written to be somewhere between “total cunt” and “he just wanted to build not destroy.”
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>>86821274
>(the future Horus ironically tried to prevent)
If 40k was the Emperor's plan all along that actually makes Horus' fall even dumber, there's tragedy in bringing about the future you are trying to avert, having both the Chaos Gods and the Emperor plan for exactly that is trash writing of the worst sort.
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>>86819923
Peter Turbo’s dad manipulated him for socioeconomic gain. One of my friends had a dad who did that, and you know what he did? Bought a house far away and started attending swinger parties. You know what he’s never done? Snapped anyone’s neck. I don’t recall precisely the point I was trying to make, but the gist is that Perturabo is a cunt
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>>86821345
Prior to the Horus Heresy novels the Emperor was always portrayed as this tragic Messiah Archetype who loved humanity and loved his sons, but was laid low by his most beloved son and had to sacrifice himself for the survival of humanity. The very climax of the Horus Heresy itself, was that the Emperor loved Horus too much that he can't kill him, and so accepted being beaten and humiliated by him, and it's only when an ordbniary man named Ollanius Pius was flayed alive that galvanised him that Horus had to be euthanised.

But the HH novels reveal everything to be pretty much his own fault. The Emperor treated everyone, even his own sons, to be nothing more than tools. No shit Emprah, no wonder your sons betrayed you, you were a colossal, hypocritical, selfish dick. Guilliman summed it up: even if you were a God you do not deserve worship.

>>86821444
Yeah the HH novels changed the perception of Emperor from "tragic figure with good intentions" to "narcissistic hypocrite". Even the other Perpetuals (immortals manipulating human civilization for millenia) hated him and in the end it's only his best bro Malcador and his waifu Erda who supported him. And even then, Erda got pissed off with the Emperor's plans for the Primarchs and let the Chaos gods in.
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>>86821514
>having both the Chaos Gods and the Emperor plan for exactly that is trash writing of the worst sort.
Luckily this isn't the case and it's only headcanon from a schizoid who thinks the Emperor represents Christ
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>>86821523
>ordbniary
I mean ordinary
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>>86821523
>Prior to the Horus Heresy novels the Emperor was always portrayed as this tragic Messiah Archetype who loved humanity and loved his sons, but was laid low by his most beloved son and had to sacrifice himself for the survival of humanity. The very climax of the Horus Heresy itself, was that the Emperor loved Horus too much that he can't kill him, and so accepted being beaten and humiliated by him, and it's only when an ordbniary man named Ollanius Pius was flayed alive that galvanised him that Horus had to be euthanised.à
This is good writing, especially the bit about Horusè pointless, and it really was pointless, cruelty making him come to his senses.
>But the HH novels reveal everything to be pretty much his own fault. The Emperor treated everyone, even his own sons, to be nothing more than tools. No shit Emprah, no wonder your sons betrayed you, you were a colossal, hypocritical, selfish dick. Guilliman summed it up: even if you were a God you do not deserve worship.
This is garbage. I never cared for the HH series that much, but it seems BL just can't handle a genuinely Good character. Which is a shame, because having a genuinely Good character like the original Emperor fail spectacularly despite everything he was trying to achieve is actually a better story than having him just be a dick that got what he deserved and it may just by chance happen to work out 10,000 years later in his favour for unrelated reasons.
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>>86819850
I really love how this franchise's lore is in now largely in the hands of a man who thinks it proves atheism and makes Daddy Dawkins happy, and another man who sees the Imperium as his dad and wants Chaos to kill the Emperor because he hates his dad, with both being pronouning woketists to top it all off.
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>>86821592
And if they do write Good characters, they inevitably end up being Mary Sues. See also: Ultramarines and Tau.

The problem with BL's portrayal of the Emperor is that, they say He "cares about humanity", but do not show examples of Emprah actually caring about humanity. Show, don't Tell. Emprah is always hyped as this kind and wise parental figure who wants to save humanity, but all scenes about him just show him being a frigid uncaring narcissistic asshole to anyone who can even manage to talk with him. He treats everyone like an experiment.

The fan interpretations of the Emperor seem to be better. Even the fan animation of the Last Church ( https://youtu.be/jSEVCs8o0H8 ) at least shows him caring for a puny human like Uriah, even personally giving him a coat to comfort him.

Personally if I was a writer I'd reimagine the Emperor to be like Lelouch. Yes, he still adheres to the motto of "The Ends Justify the Means." But at least, despite being a terroristic villiain who paved a road of blood to become Emperor of the World, Lelouch still had people he intimately and genuinely cared about, like his sister and his friends. And in the end, he sacrificed himself, staining his name forever as the world's greatest tyrant, so that all hatred be focused on him, all because he wanted to protect not only his family and friends, but also the future of humanity.
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>>86815528
>my space-daddy isn't noblebright enough
god I hate loyalfags, they get to be the main characters and always win yet "distant and all-knowing space tyrant who only cares about meta-humanity" isn't good enough for them. unironically read dune and then appreciate what interesting ""good-guy"" fluff you fucks have
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>>86822175
>god I hate loyalfags, they get to be the main characters and always win yet "distant and all-knowing space tyrant who only cares about meta-humanity" isn't good enough for them. unironically read dune and then appreciate what interesting ""good-guy"" fluff you fucks have
t. I hate space marines, but I play the spikey kind so it doesn't count!
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>>86821274
>In this context I can say the Emperor is, in fact, the biggest villain of the 40k universe.
No it's because of the Chaos gods, the imperium is just the best outcome of shitty outcomes. Everything that was done was to provoke them into acting too soon rather than the slow rot that humanity was going through after their fall.
Stop pretending Chaos was just a benign tumor on the galaxy up until the HH.
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>>86822200
40k is a setting about insane armies fighting over a doomed galaxy, it isn't a story about your stand in father figure is epic and smart and every single thing thats ever happened in the entire universe was his plan
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>>86821444
>Chaos was a good boi who din du nuffin
Truly the worst kind of blind retard.
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>>86822219
>father figure
Nothing to do with a father figure, Chaos isn't a benign entity that din du nuffin wrong.
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>>86822200
And yet the Imperium itself became the biggest fuel for Chaos. the constant warfare fuels Khorne, the despair fuels Nurgle, the suffering fuels Slaanesh and the Machiavellian corruption fuels Tzeentch. If the Emperor really intended for the Imperium to be this then he's arguably the greatest villain in 40k.
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>>86822259
All of this was already happening before the Imperium came along there was even giant tear in reality.
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>>86822221
>>86822234
Who are you quoting?
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>>86822280
No, not really. There is no reason to believe any other societies were as big of a chaos fuel as the Imperium. The Interex just... fucking told its citizens that Chaos was a danger and how it worked.
The Imperium, meanwhile, thinks that covering your ears and going LALALALAL CAN'T HEAR YOU will protect it against the evils of the cosmos.
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>>86815528
Because ADB is a retard
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>>86822297
>W-who are you q-quoting
Not an argument
>>
>the emperor sure did a lot of evil things
>the ends justify the means!
>but the emperor's plan ended in massive failure
>...
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>>86822451
If his plan was to become a god all along like the traitors had suspected then it wasn't a massive failure.
Lorgar wasn't punished not for being wrong but for hitting too close to the truth of things.
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>>86822473
>If his plan was to become a god all along
They just published a 60 book series saying the opposite, and the lore for the thirty years before that said the opposite, so that'd be quite a twist for GW to say everything they'd written before was pointless and a lie
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>>86822489
Nah, i just think Lorgar din du nuffin wrong and had the emperor dead to rights and that is why the Emperor tard raged at him and destroyed Monarchia.
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>>86822510
If he was really annoyed with Lorgar that much then he should have given him the treatment of the 2nd and 11nth Legion.

Or more benevolently, withdraw Lorgar from the front lines and appoint him the head of Imperial propaganda.
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>>86818936
>>Look asshole, religions all more or less lead to powering these rape entities in another dimension. If you dont cut the shit out, some pink hermaphrodite with crab claws is going to impale you on its 3 foot member. You dont want that right?
Did the last church take place before or after the birth of Slaanesh?
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>>86821592
>genuinely Good character

The Emperor was never portrayed as such. All we ever got about him before HH was the propaganda version, and even post-HH they still portray him as such in 40k books.
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>>86822221
What does that even mean? That the Emperor self-destroying action were good because he was against chaos?
You know that putting lead ink up your ass is not a good idea just because you are against tyranny?
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>>86822537
>Or more benevolently, withdraw Lorgar from the front lines and appoint him the head of Imperial propaganda.
That's basically what he should have done, yes.
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>>86819923
>be pert
>in olympian culture boys choose a new name when they reach adulthood
>symbolising the end of childhood
>pert stays pert
>announcing to the galaxy that he is a manchild
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>>86822691
>rulebooks are written as propaganda
This makes zero sense when you read what's actually in them.
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>>86822717
The Emperor is part of the Chaos pantheon, he is a God, he had done deals with them in the past to gain power.
You just smooth brained and can't see that the Emperor doth protest too much.
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>>86822979
It has nothing to do with my point, but cool story, bro.
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>>86823069
>self destroying
>against Chaos
Okay bro stay retarded i guess Nurgle is against chaos too because he fights against the other chaos gods.
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>>86823077
What a surprise, when you stop talking in riddles and actually make a point, people can understand what you mean. I could get behind this fan theory, but unfortunately that's what it is, a fan theory.
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>>86823143
Unfortunately it is a fact and you are just retarded.
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>>86823232
Until i get some quotes of your supposed "facts", if there's one of us who's been making a joke of his mental faculties is definitely not me
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>>86823261
>quotes
Now look who is talking in riddles i can't read your mind, stay mad.
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>>86822337
couldnt agree more.
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>>86822321
seconding this.
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>>86822259
YES. THANK YOU FOR SAYING IT.
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>>86823496
>>86823521
The Imperium also fuels the Emperor not just the chaos gods.
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>>86819482
There's that, and also the fact that everyone forgets to mention how much time he spent with said Primarchs.
Whenever he'd recover another one, he and some of the other primarchs would take a reprieve to brief the new one, teach them, explain shit and form the relationship he never got to have. The only exception was Angron, iirc, because he was quite literally unable to be taught.
But BL only likes bolter porn and edgy shit, so no one bothered to write anything in the way of positive attributes to anything, so suddenly Space Jesus, who's seen everything there is to see and still believes in human potential, is a sociopathic monster who'll beat a population to death because they were taught to pray to him, every cognitive transhuman is really just an autist or a sperg with zero comprehension of social skills, everything is just as shit as 10,000 years later for the common man, and communication and basic social skills are just something that the 21 most powerful creatures in reality just don't do, because either it's that rare a concept, or it's just not cool.
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>>86818864
>>86818936
The chaos gods are a cognitive hazard.
Knowing about them meant your activities would empower them more.
He was absolutely right to keep it from the masses.
Debatably right to keep it from such powerful and galactically influential and spiritually weighty figures as his sons (though practicality would suggest informing them was slightly more sensible).
>>86818792
Horus is another dude who got it bad. He was supposed to be categorically the best of his brothers. Everything Sanguinius, The Lion, Magnus, Russ and Vulkan all were, but also so down to earth the common bloke could have a beer with him in a bar, and not feel daunted or insecure in less than two minutes.
As in, enough qualities to be a genuine alternative Emperor.
Instead, he also becomes an arrogant paranoid egotist and social manipulator. Mostly due to shitty writing.
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>>86821440
Master of Prospero, and it was a device that mimicked the effects of a navigator's third eye, except usable by anyone.

>This will be of interest to you, brother,’ said Perturabo, holding out a complex arrangement of curved metal, winding mechanisms and adjustable lenses. ‘I made a replica of the Antikythera, just like you asked.’ To see so delicate a mechanism in Perturabo’s hands seemed incongruous, as most apparatus bearing the stamp of the Iron Warriors that Atharva had seen – save for those within this chamber – had been brutally functional.

>‘Does it work?’
>‘I am not entirely sure,’ answered Perturabo. ‘You never fully explained its intended purpose or how exactly it was designed to function.’ ‘You’ve built it,’ said Magnus. ‘What do you think it does?’ ‘I believe it to be some form of navigational instrument,’ said Perturabo, lifting the device to look through one of its eyepieces. ‘It has the look of a sextant once used by seafarers, but with infinitely more dimensions to its operation. What manner of ocean would you be navigating to require such a device?’ ‘The Great Ocean,’ said Magnus. ‘It allows even those without our gifts to perceive the realm beyond.’

>Perturabo nodded and set down the Antikythera. ‘I suspected as much,’ he said with a sigh, turning to lift something heavy from another part of his workbench. ‘You remember what our father told us in the Hall of Leng? When he spoke of the warp and the danger of looking too deeply into its heart?’ ‘I do,’ said Magnus, ‘but this has nothing to do with that.’

>‘It has everything to do with that, as well you know, but we will speak of this later.’ Perturabo’s arm swung around and he smashed the delicate mechanisms of the Antikythera with a heavy hammer. The metal of the device buckled and split, the precision-ground lenses shattering into a thousand fragments.

Cont.
>>
>>86821844
You make many good points. We need more texts showing how people cared. The whole thing is supposed to be about passions, not bolter porn.
>The Last Church.
I personally liked it. Big E's just used to being big. He makes straightforward statements, that while kindly and polite, are matter of fact. Which just doesn't translate well when in written form, where the reader (who's established the tone from reddit memes) adds their own paraverbalisations and tones into it.
It's one of his few moments where he sits down with a normal human. He steps away from his grand, brutal work, and not only treats with a human, but the vastly lesser person holds himself up to him as an academic peer.
As a standalone piece, and as an animated short, The Last Church is actually pretty good, with all the different meanings behind exchanges. It's just set in a heap of garbage.
>>
>>86821518
Perturabo's dad raised and groomed him to be his successor running a greek style city-state as its tyrant, and even aside from that indulged his every want and even tried to connect with him on an emotional level.
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>>86822451
>I sabotaged your plan
>this makes your plan bad
>>86822537
Put the guy who has been operating in total defiance of your propaganda and edicts in charge of propaganda. I'm sure that won't end with a metric fuckton of space bibles being on literally every single compliance vessel.
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>>86823786
Cont'd.

>‘Brother, no!’ cried Magnus as the pieces fell to the floor. ‘Why?’ Perturabo replaced the hammer on his workbench and said, ‘Because I will play no part in aiding you in delving into things you have been told to leave well alone. Our father knows more than us. He has seen further than us. If He tells us there are regions of the warp into which even He does not dare look, then we are beholden to accept that.’

>Magnus stared at the ruined device in disbelief. Such a piece was the work of a master, a treasure that ought to have been held up as the epitome of the craftsman’s art.
>Atharva saw Magnus’ aura darken, like blood in the water. ‘Knowing what you suspected, you could have destroyed the Antikythera at any time after its completion,’ said Magnus with cold and controlled anger. ‘But you waited until I was here to see you do it. Why?’

>‘Because you needed to see it destroyed to truly understand.’

TL;DR Perturabo is a massive fucking cunt
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>>86815693
Did any of the loyalists aside from Dorn and Russ actually like him? We can definitively say Guilliman, the Khan didn’t like him. Sanguinius was convinced his Legion was on the chopping block if the red thirst was ever discovered. I’m not even sure the Lion liked him, he might have just accused Guilliman of being a traitor in Unremembered Empire because he’s eternally asspained about Roboute being better at math than he is
>>
Monarchia was plain character assassination.
It's such a gross overreaction and injustice from a being that supposedly is unbelievably wise and masterful in his behind the scene influencing for thousand of years observation of Humanity.

It would be one thing if it was miscommunication striking yet again. Emps doesn't appear in person but wants the Shrine World to cease being a gross violation, but Roboute is both misreading his mandate in the worst of ways and actually causing the fall of his brother by his militant atheist biases informing an extremely reckless and cruel decision on his least favourite brother.

As it stands Emps makes a legion kneel, glasses a world with some lady going blind and acts every inch a crazy tyrant just to give Word Bearers every excuse to go Chaos.
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>>86823811
>>this makes your plan bad
Yes idiot. If a general goes to war and gets his ass kicked by the enemy general you don't celebrate how smart your failed general was.
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>>86823697
>He was supposed to be
Where are you getting this from? We've never had any of the characters characterized before, so how are you to say what they are "supposed" to be?
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>>86817735
>It's crazy to me that you DoW secondaries haven't even read The Last Church.
Have YOU read the Last Church?
The man running a violent crusade says:
>‘Can’t I?’ countered Revelation. ‘In the name of your religion, a holy man launched a war with the battle cry of “Deus Vult”, which means “god wills it” in one of the ancient tongues of Old Earth. His warriors were charged with destroying enemies in a far-off kingdom, but first they fell upon those in their own lands who opposed the war. Thousands were dragged from their homes and hacked to death or burned alive. Then, satisfied their homeland was secure, the zealous legions plundered their way thousands of miles to the holy city they were to liberate. Upon reaching it, they killed every inhabitant to “purify” the symbolic city of taint. I remember one of their leaders saying that he rode in blood up to the knees and even to his horse’s bridle, by the just and marvellous judgement of god.’
> ‘If it were one event, I might agree with you,’ replied Revelation, ‘but just a hundred or so years later, another holy man declared war on a sect of his own church. His warriors laid siege to the sect’s stronghold in ancient Franc, and when the city fell his generals asked their leader how they might tell the faithful from the traitor among the captives. This man, who followed your god, ordered the warriors to “Kill them all. God will know His own”. Nearly twenty thousand men, women and children were slaughtered.’
His entire argument boils down to “UUUUUHHH RELIGION IS LE BAD BECAUSE IT CAUSES VIOLENCE” as he wages a massive and destructive global war featuring genetically enhanced child slave soldiers
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>>86823904
>glasses a world with some lady going blind
iirc it was just the city, which was evacuated first.
>>86823918
Okay so say I ask you to cosign a loan with me, and you agree because we're friends and you trust me. Once everything is signed, I vanish into the fucking wind with all the money and leave you with the debt because I'm a grifter and my hustle is betraying people who trust me. Does this make you stupid?
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>>86815653
You can't just call out my schizophrenic boogeyman as a meme and get away with it anon. Stop cringing at me. It is you who is triggered. Not me. You will not get away with this.
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>>86824005
The Emperor was not friends with Chaos, he was at war with them. He knew he was at war with them.
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>>86824005
>>86824060
And to answer your question if put myself on the hook for a loan so big I couldn't afford to pay it back if you bailed that'd make me stupid for not planning around that yes.
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>>86815773
I'm so sick of this tired meme attitude. The entire premise of any narrative in the 40k universe is dependent on divergent stories where the only canon that matters is the story that you create for yourdudes™

Basically, everything is canon, but not all canon is necessarily true. Not even the lead editor for the novels is trying to enforce anything as concrete.

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/heresy-black-legion-chatter-in-the-mail-this-morning/

But hey this is /tg/ where
>what the "writers" do doesn't matter lmao
is said immediately preceding fucking pathetic whinging of
>NO YOU DIDN'T WRITE YARRICK AN EPIC WIN ENDING NOOOO
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>>86822338
You master debaters are both dishonest and reductive niggers, the both of you. I wipe my ass with your "arguments".
>>
Okay so here is another take on The Last Church

The Emperor wasn't getting rid of religion because he was a fedora enthusiast and wanted everyone to be atheist, instead, he was getting rid of his only competition so that humanity would worship him instead.
>>
I don't really understand why /tg/ was so triggered by The Last Church. The Emperor behaved as much of a needless cunt as befitting as the tyrant he's supposed to be and the priest didn't have to be 100% correct in order to be viewed favorably. The fact that anons were so fixated on the religious aspect of the story over the exploration of it being a character piece is (predictable but) baffling.
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>>86824230
if i have to take a guess it's because it claims to be the Emperor, arrogant and unlikeable but in the right, vs a priest, affable and likeable but in the wrong.

But when you hear the Emperor arguments, he comes out as arrogant yes, but also blindsided, hypocritical, stubborn in his simplistic views and all around ignorant in all matters cultural and societal.
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>>86815619
Rent free
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>>86817754
Go back
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>>86824420
>Reddit moment.
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>>86823958
All the older lore always says, when it does, that Horus was da best.
First among his brothers, the greatest of Primarchs, closest to his father and master of all fields of war and generalship. He wasn't old and fuckoff smart, but he had the best of his father and unlike his powerful and magnificent father, Horus was a man of the people. People would drop to their knees at the sight of the Emperor, but with Horus they could have a pint and chat shit. At least until sides were taken.

I will admit, he didn't have much of a personality past this, but imo if they'd stuck to this barebones personality, and taken steps to make sure any potential flaws were balanced out, it would have made the tale more compelling, as Horus in this manner, has genuine precedence for going against his loving and well meaning, but distant father, which beats out magic personality corruption narratively.
"Why should my father wear the crown when I am the one who earned it for him" beats out "well I was stabbed with a ritual knife and resurrected evil, time to gank my daddy and go back on everything I personally committed to."

But again, it's probably less intentional, more just shit writing and meme culture.
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>>86817906
His only fuck up was dying before he got enthroned instead of sometime after.
>>
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but Uriah Olathaire never had any sort of theological education, right?
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>>86821523
Perpetuals are the dumbest shit in the lore. If the Emperor needs peers or rivals they can just be super special psykers or mega geniuses instead
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>>86825393
Don't think he did.
But he was a learned man, and an old, experienced one, who devoted his life to being the one able to help people.
He's probably self-tutored, but he is able to debate with the big man, even if unsuccessfully.
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>>86824095
There's more than enough plausible deniability in the source material to cast doubt on the Black Library as anything other than internal histories of a powerful faction of the Imperium.

Remember the IRL Catholic Church was able to completely retcon the history of the Jesus movement likewise with the Ummayads and Mohommed.
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>>86823697
>Knowing about them meant your activities would empower them more.
they would be empowered whether you know them or not. plus interex told their citizens of chaos but they didnt get corrupted. thats why chaos had to pull that dirty trick at their museum.
>>
Horus heresy isn't canon because I wont read it
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>>86825554
>infect Interex
>>No Horus Heresy

gee I wonder why the God of Keikeku just left that on the table
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>>86825554
You've never seen or heard of scummy groups putting pretty people in the front to bait you in? How sheltered your existence has been.
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>>86825639
And the other gods just went along with Tzeentch's plans and didn't corrupt any Interex citizens at all? Yeah sure bro.
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Daily Reminder that while he might or might not wants to fuck Genestealers, the best portrayal of the Emperor in all of 40k comes from Ian Watson
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>>86817754
It. was called. Cancer. And we cured it. With the surgeon and so much gore. And we will do so again if needed.

And as for op. The narratives way of explaining it was that while everything written is in the universe. It does not make the written things true, Accurate, good or even important.

They get what they get from the narrative and shoot their shot. And in this case, the shot was shit.
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>>86825701
That is a point of the Heresy, the gods of Chaos worked together as a unified whole to make it happen.
Learn to read.
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>>86823984
And the most ironic thing is that the author thinks the Emperor is genuinely correct, and he was so proud of this being real-life proof of atheism's correctness that he literally presented it to fucking Richard Dawkins.
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>>86822691
I hate how some of you people keep saying
>well the emperor being a massive dumbass incel fuckup is totally fine because everything we ever knew about him wasn't objective which means it should be objectively true that he's this way now
Okay. The Hive Mind's manifested form is Jar Jar Binks, and he came from the Star Wars galaxy to eat people's shit in 40k. Nothing objectively says he wasn't, so this is a fine piece of writing.
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>>86823984
based emperor shitting on christcucks
>>
I'm disappointed the Horus Heresy novels exist. I wish we could go back to a better time when the HH was only a few pages of lore at best and each Primarch had a name and maybe one piece of art each. Sometimes it's better to keep things mysterious, which is something GW has no understanding of.
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>>86817696
>emperor pre HH
>a dead guy in a chair

>emperor in HH
>you see why he ends up dead in a chair
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>>86825932
No, see, they understand, they just don't care. Pumping out shit books means more product to sell, means more profits. GW is a for profit corporation previously restrained only by their levels of confidence.
>>
The only GOOD 40k novels are the Infinite and the Divine, Betrayer and whatever insanity Ian Watson felt like writing.
>>
What I don’t honestly understand is why the Emperor raised EVIL legions? Like…why?
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>>86826402
>because uhhhh........ BECAUSE IT'S GRIMDARK OK?? buy the book and stop asking questions
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>>86825993
>emperor pre HH
>a guy in a chair maybe or maybe not alive who may or may not do psychic things

>emperor in HH
>a massive retard in a chair who does massively retarded things

Again, the HH novels and 40k lore in general is helmed by a man who's outright stated that to him the Imperium is religion and the Emperor is his dad, and he wants both to be shit and get destroyed because he's a truly militant atheist and he has an extreme hatred of his dad for unknown reasons.
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>>86815528
The writers have all been corrupted by chaos and nothing they write can be taken as Canon, brother. Even those in this very thread will implore you to "read the literature". They are all corrupted by the warp, they are all heretics. An open mind is like a fortress with its gates barred and unguarded brother, it soon belongs to your enemy. Keep faith, the emperor protects.
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>>86823829
Man this just makes me like pert a lot
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>>86822665
Long after, the birth of slaanesh caused the fall of the eldar and the end of humanity's golden age, roughly M25. It took emps almost 5000 years just to drag earth back to civilisation.
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>>86823829
This is probably the only rational thing that pert did. If even he could see what a liability Magnus was becoming then the big red retard had to be put in his place
This is basically letting your dumbass friend or kid hurt themselves so they actually learn a long overdue lesson
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>>86818822
>perpetuals
kys
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>>86818936
>>86818864
Even then the Emperor is wrong, true fanatic belief actually harms daemons whenever they show up. His fedora tipping is weakening humanity against chaos.
>>
why are there so many people desperate to believe in Great Men?
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>>86815528
>I was disappointed in how the Horus Heresy novels portrayed the Emperor
The problem with you and the other people ITT that Emperor in BL stories is stupid is that you haven't read those stories, or only the early ones at best, and you put in a pedestal the original version in the Indexes and Visions without understanding how nonsensical they already were, and how the BL authors try to make sense of them.
Is not entirely your fault, because the Emperor actual intentions and nature are spread over a mix of big novels and easy to miss short stories and their quality is nothing special, but the fact that you types keep whining about Monarchia or Angron outs you as lorelets.
If you had paid attention, you would have noticed the big metaplot between 30k and 40k, with Dan Abnett at the main writer, and others like ADB or Wraight following it.
>S1: There is a grand bargain here.
>S2: I understand it.
>S1: Do you? Already? Good. Very good. What is the bargain?
>S2: [Silentium.] Infinite power cannot be overcome. We are finite, limited by law. So, deception.
>S1: Do you find that unworthy?
>S2: No.
>S1: Because it comes from me.
>S2: Yes.
>S1: Speak freely. For once, speak freely. You are only just awakened – there may be few chances left for you.
>S2: [Silentium.] You will cheat them. You will cheat all of them. And us.
>S1: A risky strategy.
>S2: There are no others.
>S1: You understand it. And, tell me – do you understand the full implication?
>S2: Ruin. Total ruin.
Valdor - Birth of the Imperium
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>>86815528
That’s what happens when a hack with known daddy issues (and a bunch of other even worse hacks) is allowed to write for the greatest patriarchal figure in a setting
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>>86818864
>>86818375
>>86823984
>NOOOO IT DOESN'T COUNT BECAUSE... IT JUST DOESN'T OK???
As always, DoW secondaries miss the point. You see surface-level fedora tipping and think "this is bad writing because it disagrees with my headcanon," when in fact this is what the Emperor's character has been for as long as he's had a character. The heckin wholesome 100 loving HFY daddy Emperor you're envisioning has never existed except in TTS. He has always been an all-powerful pseud.
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>>86827183
Something tells me that if Warhammer followed its own logic, God (capital G) would've been around thanks to humanity's worship, but it's a gRimDaRk setting made by hard atheists, so I'm not particularly surprised.
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>>86824420
I wish I could go back to the 4chan of old, but sadly you election tourists flooded in and now we inevitably must share a site with you, watching you shit your pants whenever you see wrongthink in this place known for its wrongthink.
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>>86815528
Agreed. The writers keep trying to tear down the idea that the original imperium was this forwards thinking utopian state by introducing all this dark shit to it, probably to increase the "grimdark" of the setting, not realizing that it just makes the setting seem overly dark and pointless. The imperium of 40k is a backwards, oppressive, genocidal shithole? Who cares? Apparently it was always like that! The primarchs, the anointed superhuman, larger than life uber-men that were destined to save humanity and lead it into a new golden age have been tragically corrupted into perverse, demonic parodies of themselves? Oh no friend, The primarchs were always petty, idiotic, murderous and pathetic losers! They sold their souls to chaos because daddy didn't love them enough! The emperor of mankind, greatest of all men and savior of humanity was mortally wounded in a deadly battle with his beloved firstborn son, and interred in the golden throne in a deathlike state, suffering eternally just to ensure the continued survival of humanity? Nah bro, the emperor was actually a huge dickhead and narcissist who saw the people around him as nothing but tools! He also was the sworn enemy of chaos, anathema to all the abominations of the warp, but apparently didn't understand how chaos even worked! One of the nobody empires that he destroyed during the great crusade had actually beaten chaos by just telling everyone about the chaos gods and asking them nicely to not worship them! The emperor was apparently just too much of a tyrannical expansionist retard to just copy them! Or come up with the idea himself! In fact, we're probably better off with him stuck on the golden throne! Imagine that.

By shoving all this retarded darkness into the past of the setting, they're undermining the tragedy of the present. The guilliman imperium is arguably better than the emperor's imperium. How does that make sense?
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>>86819846
>Magnus never had a parent or peer figure
What about Amon?
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>>86828814
Grimdark is retarded and should never have been the basis of the setting. It doesn't make it unique or engaging in the slightest.
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>>86829317
Fuck off
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>>86829363
95% of the lore's autism can be traced back to "le grimderk". It has accomplished nothing for the entire franchise in four fucking decades.
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>>86829370
Fuck off.
>wow I really like marvel movies but I wish it wasn't about super heroes
>wow I really like mario kart but I wish it wasn't about driving
>wow I really like god of war but I wish it didn't have so much fighting
If you don't like grimdark you don't like 40k. Go do something else with your time.
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>>86815528
If there are multiple conflicting canon descriptions of a character pick the one you like most or make your own.
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>>86829317
post face.
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>>86829385
There's a difference between grimdark and grimderp
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>>86829485
Backpedaling
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>>86829385
>wow I really like spaghetti but I wish this spaghetti didn't have shit sauce on it
>shit sauce is a vital component if you don't like it gtfo
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>>86829514
Welcome to 40k faggot.
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>>86829514
>I ordered the spicy pasta and I don't like that the sauce is spicy HELP
Fuck off
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>>86829514
>I want a bland flavorless bowl of food and I want 40k to be just as bland and flavorless
Your analogy is bit more accurate than you intended
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>>86829564
I'd rather eat bland dry spaghetti than spaghetti covered in liquid shit you fuckhead. The point is even if the grimdark makes it stand out it doesn't do so in a good way.
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>>86829672
>won't eat shit
Then GTFO, this is what 40k is all about.
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>>86829717
I mean fair enough.
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>>86829317
Grimdark is fine, it's just that too much of it can make the setting seem completely pointless, and therefore, uninteresting. Why do I care what happens to the cadians if it's all pointless anyways?
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>>86829966
I could tolerate the grimdark myself if it didn't make everything pointless yeah. Chaos being a big cloud of emotion that's nigh-impossible to beat and grows with mortal failings, alright. Chaos being inevitable and wiping everyone out with total ease, fuck that shit. It's wank.

I know some anon is gonna say "muh entropy" but last I checked the heat death of the universe isn't kicking down your door with a big armored retard and stealing your actual soul to receive supernatural torment forever.
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>>86830068
Oh it's you again. Don't you have anything better to do on thanksgiving?
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>>86830209
The hell are you talking about?
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>>86821523
Erda got pissy that the Primarchs would be raised to lead armies in the crusade and reunite humanity. Then, believing that they deserved “free will” she literally threw them into the fucking Hell Dimension, as children, casting them away from all the protections that she knew they needed.

She single-handedly caused EVERYTHING. Even the Chaos Gods have no fucking clue why she did what she did, it is incomprehensible to them that she would so completely betray humanity and almost hand victory to them on a silver platter over a fit of pique; that the Emperor managed to claw back what he could to manage a stalemate/draw in the end says a lot about his abilities.

Yes, even the Chaos Gods themselves cannot understand the absolute idiocy behind her action, and think she is a moron.

It says something that other Perpetuals, many of whom hate the Emperor, think she is absolutely, blindingly retarded.
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>>86830267
I thought the chaos gods sent time travelling space marines to the lab to steal the primarchs
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>>86830209
>>86830213
It's gonna be a chaoswank-brainrotted response of
>you die rl so the ending doesn't matter
Because dumbass endings to stories don't matter and you can never bitch about the ending to something because you die anyway, so that justifies Chaos getting sucked off nonstop.
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>>86830288
>Because dumbass endings to stories don't matter
40k isn't a story and doesn't have an ending.
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>>86821844
>but all scenes about him just show him being a frigid uncaring narcissistic asshole to anyone who can even manage to talk with him
Check out the Sons of the Emperor collection of short stories, the Emperor is talking with Vulkan there and is fairly wise sounding. When he shows up in Deliverance Lost, too, as well as in the Alpharius Primarch novel.

The Khan’s Primarch novel mentions him in a roundabout way but doesn’t have him on screen, just the mentions about how he and Khan have been yelling at each other in arguments all over the Imperial Palace for weeks.
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>>86830294
>doesn't have an ending
Yes it does. Chaos consumes the universe.
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>>86830343
You're wrong sorry
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>>86823903
Lion liked him, per his Primarchs novel. Guilliman “respected” him. Magnus liked him, Vulkan and Ferrus liked him.
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>>86830283
I'm at book 30 and the scene where primarchs get stolen has been played out like 2 to 4 times. Can't really remember. At this point I just treat it like visions.
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>>86830283
As it turns out, they didn’t. Erebus even confirmed it.
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>>86818792
Emperor told as fee people as possible about the webway project because it would make the Navigators obsolete. If they saw the Emps planning to dispose of them, they could crash the imperium and attempt a coup and there's little anyone could do to stop then. Hence, nobody who is on ships gets told about the project.
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>>86821844
He didn't make himself available to either Malcador or Dorn in most of the Heresy but when Corvus fucking Corax made it clear that he wanted to force his sons into a suicide mission just to appease his bruised ego and emo tendencies, the Emperor himself told Corvus to not throw his life away and gave him something to do instead.
In Deliverance Lost, he's shown to care about the double raven. They share something. He's shown in a pretty good light in that book
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>>86830400
That is an argument, but it's a pretty bad one. It's not like Primarchs and Navigators are very chummy with each other. Horus (as he was before the fall) wouldn't blurt out a secret of the Emperor to a Navigator of all people.
And besides, most Navigators age quickly and hate their jobs. If anything they'd be happy nobody else would get to suffer as they did. The only people who'd actually give a fuck are the Navigator noble houses.
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>>86819850
Except that's a stupid way to portray arrogance in someone who is literally a super-genius and thousands of years old. This overly emotional blame-assignment simply doesn't fit in with how pragmatic and detached the Emps is portrayed anywhere else.
Honestly, he should have argued some sort of gnosticist approach, because being a megabrained autist who doesn't get the human condition is literally how he lost Mortarion and Perturabo
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>>86830493
>with how pragmatic and detached the Emps is portrayed anywhere else
People keep saying the portrayal of the Emperor in HH betrays his previous portrayals but he was literally never portrayed before those books.
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>>86829966
It's worse in fantasy. At least the emperor can kinda do some shit occasionally. Fantasy is just chaos getting fapped over and over again and the writers reminding you how stupid and retarded everyone else is, and how the gods of order are utterly powerless, and how the world's doomed, and how nobles universally must act like drooling severely autistic toddlers in all of their dealings. It all goes back to them apeing all of Moorcock's equally shitty concepts to a T. It's a setting that handles religion and politics with the nuance and knowledge of a 13 year old who just subbed to r/atheism, that thinks characters should act suicidally stupid and make horrendously dumb choices at every turn, and who thinks a race whose one and only motif is Euro hooliganism is hilarious. Because I don't wanna buy overpriced pieces of the plastic, the lore's all that there's for me and it's shit. It's not a dark, gritty fantasy, it's an over the top grimdark/derp bizarro land where giant mexican reptiles punch radioactive hamsterwheels and shitfaced inbreds pray to gods who don't exist while four maniacal edgelords watch and laugh, and I can't for the life of me get why people like it.

If they do more power to them, no shade, but fuck is it annoyingly, persistently stupid to me.
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>>86830516
>Because I don't wanna buy overpriced pieces of the plastic, the lore's all that there's for me and it's shit
So stop entering 40k threads faggot. Nobody gives a shit.
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>>86827624
by it's own logic lots of benevolent deities and demigods should exist, you'd get the super best friends from south park and imaginationland.

The Umbra is just a better version of the Warp honestly because depite being from world of Darkness not horrible things are permitted their plausible existence rather than the artificial slant to horrible 40k leans on.
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>>86830568
>the artificial slant to horrible
That pretty much sums up the whole warhammer setting.
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>>86827624
>>86830568
The War in Heaven permanently changed the Warp to favor negative emotions over positive ones
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>>86830613
its a sub reason I got into OPR, the "as close to the setting as you like" vibes lets people have some freedom with their concepts

>>86830636
Elve's Ruined it all is a minor justification, at the same time you'd think praise of benevolent entities could actually bring some pushback
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>>86830479
Navigators can occasionally read minds, and the Navigator houses are the richest single entity in the pre heresy empire, the paternovae certainly wouldn't enjoy a loss of status. They were rich enough to get a permanent seat in the senatorum later, and at multiple occasions, primarchs had to barter for personnel with them.
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>>86830643
I just go with my own settings. I think it's obviously hard to find a setting that really lines up with everything you want out of it.
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>>86830514
I am talking about how he is portrayed in the HH books as well. Old Lore blurbs never fleshed out his character that much. However, even in the BL books he's a pragmatist above all else, and he's also called a genius again and again by other perpetuals and rivals. Having a single short story portray him as an emotional dumbass making tear-bait arguments is inconsistent if nothing else.
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>>86830643
>at the same time you'd think praise of benevolent entities could actually bring some pushback
The emperor projects a psychic forcefield over the entire galaxy. Ceogorach saves the souls of his followers from slaanesh and has lead a ten thousand year guerilla war against chaos. Isha whispers the cures for diseases in the dreams of human scientists. Khaine is fractured but still leads people into war. Ynnead is fated to kill slaanesh entirely. There are benevolent entities who push back.
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>>86830516
>apeing all of Moorcock's equally shitty concepts to a T
You never read moorcock. Chaos gets dunked on in most of moorcock's plots, they don't win a single plane, and the only one eternally suffering is literally the eternal hero, and even he gets to go to Tanelorn for r&r occasionally. And even though he gets thrown into the grinder, the eternal hero mostly succeeds at cutting back gods and giving mortals more freedom.
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>>86830516
>giant mexican reptiles punch radioactive hamsterwheels
but that part is actually fun
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>>86830737
So they actually make Moorcock even grimdarker and edgier? I also thought it was Moorcock who did the "all gods are evil" thing.
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>>86815528
66 posters have severe issues with their father
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>>86827107
>This is basically letting your dumbass friend or kid hurt themselves so they actually learn a long overdue lesson
Not at all. This is like a kid asking you to take the training wheels off their bike, and instead of explaining that they aren't ready for that yet and why the wheels are important, you take them off and and the moment they start pedaling, you push them onto the ground and pop their tires.
Perturabo could have destroyed the device at any point, shown it to the Emperor to ask if it was really dangerous and use it as proof that Magnus was ignoring his orders. Instead he waited for the moment in which it would be cruelest and most painful to destroy it, then gloated in Magnus' face about having ruined something that would have massively benefited the entire human race more than any compliance action ever would have, and seen him hailed as the greatest craftsman and inventor alive. In that moment he allowed his urge to be a petty cunt to overwhelm him, and sabotaged himself as well as hurting Magnus.
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>>86815657
Or this guy.
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>>86827624
>Something tells me that if Warhammer followed its own logic, God (capital G) would've been around thanks to humanity's worship, but it's a gRimDaRk setting made by hard atheists, so I'm not particularly surprised.
Doesn't He actually exist in the lore too though? There's that bit about Grey Knights guarding the last copy of the most dangerous book in history (implied to be the Bible) and that they're only allowed to smash the glass case holding it if ever there's super duper emergency even the Grey Knights can't handle?
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>>86829317
>>86829370
Grimdark works fine, as long as it's not all pure derp-level Grimdark, you need that 1% of genuine light to contrast how horrible the rest is otherwise it loses meaning.
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>>86829564
>I want a bland flavorless bowl of food and I want 40k to be just as bland and flavorless
>Your analogy is bit more accurate than you intended
NTA, but not really, the most common complaint about ordering spicy food is that it's not spicy enough, 40k on the other hand is basically just a diet of embers with a side of sulphuric acid to wash it down with.
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>>86830267
>Even the Chaos Gods have no fucking clue why she did what she did, it is incomprehensible to them that she would so completely betray humanity and almost hand victory to them on a silver platter over a fit of pique
>Women are so absolutely nonsensical even beings made of pure nonsense can't comprehend them.
Lads, I just think we found Malal's replacement.
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>>86832791
>you need that 1% of genuine light to contrast how horrible the rest is otherwise it loses meaning.
That's the Tau
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>>86830646
If they even thought of starting shit, maybe Valdor could sick some of his golden janitors upon them to get them back in line. Along with a few mute-autist pariahs.
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>>86832871
>That's the Tau
They don't qualify, they're too naïve about the universe, and I don't mean it in a fuck Tau way, it's that they genuinely don't know enough to be legitimately afraid. That genuine light has to know what it's dealing with, and still despite remain that, true to itself to count. The Tau don't fit the bill.
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>>86830646
>>86832955
Also reading the mind of a primarch? That feels like a stretch.
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>>86817735
Isn't he a bit of both collumns? He wanted to be humanity's savior and took extreme measures to ensure its dominance in the universe. He believed his planning flawless and didn't expect his primarchs to be robbed from the cradle. He was a man, a powerful man but a man all the same, a flawed being that thought he knew best and was stubborn to consider otherwise with his fate being the ultimate irony of those who claim loyalty going against everything he tried to do while worshipping him as a God. At least, that's what I always gathered about him
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>>86830636
If the Warp is truly infinitely changeable with no limit, then permanent change is impossible.
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>>86833057
He knew his planning wasn’t flawless. That’s why he had backups, countermoves, and alternates. He’s just managed to, thanks to Horus, burn his way through many of those contingencies by the time of 40K. But he still has moves left to make, and based on Chaos’ reaction, they are pants-shittingly terrified of him.

Hilariously, the ones closest to the Emperor in 30k times (Malcador and Valdor) both think his biggest flaw isn’t arrogance or pride, but that he is too idealistic and always sees the good or rosy side of things when he sometimes really should have taken a much harder look at what was going on (see: Lorgar, Magnus). That’s why the Emperor might establish the Imperium, but Malcador is the one who creates the Inquisition and Assassins as a cynic/realist backup. If you believe Alpharius in his Primarchs novel, Alpharius shares up to a point the same opinion of the Emperor: too idealistic and always looking ahead, looking for the best future, while Alpharius prefers to secure what’s happening in the now. Which would make a nice dichotomy with Curze, who always saw the worst.
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>>86832791
The light is individual heroism
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>>86815528
I prefer REAL emperors who actually wield the weapon the games named after
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>>86817874
Has there ever been any proof of the Emperor giving out psychic powers at random to anyone other than the astropaths that stand in front of him and get there eyes burned out. Because that has always seemed to me to be a technological aspect of the golden throne and its functions than it is a power of the Emperor himself.

And the weird shit going on with the sisters of battle always felt like it had nothing to do with the God Emperor empowering the sisters with his psychic might or something like that. And more like the sisters pure and overwhelming faith was fucking with fate and reality its self in weird ways that did not involve the warp or warp gods at all. As the sisters of battle are never described as psychers at all in there fluff.
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>>86833536
>Has there ever been any proof of the Emperor giving out psychic powers at random to anyone other than the astropaths
He does it in Plague War, though it burns the psyker girl to ash to contain the power he puts into her.
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>>86815528
My personal headcannon is that the Emperor somehow helped to create slannesh because humanity could never dominate the galaxy as long as the eldar empire stood
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>>86833536
I think the Sisters getting empowered is less direct intervention and more a matter of faith. In a sense, due to the Emperor's presence, it causes certain levels of manifestation to occur due to having a certain amount of influence over the immaterium. The Sisters' levels of pure hearted devotion and faith to the Emperor are strong enough to essentially create miracles due to the influence the Emperor holds in the immaterium even from life support on the Golden Throne.
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>>86830755
Yes and no. Both Chaos and Order are terrible for mortals if they gain dominance, but the respectively weaker side in your world can genuinely be helpful too. Then there's the "cosmic balance", of which the protagonists are always an agent, which endeavors to keep the two forces balanced and slowly get rid of the gods in all the multiverses because they keep fucking shit up.

For example, in elric of melnebone, the world starts out with a moderate tilt towards Chaos and strong divine influence, end ends up remade more balanced with the gods' powers reduced. The gods of law help bring this about because they hate Chaos.
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>>86817735
>you dawn of war secondaries
kek’d
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>>86828814
The worst part of it I think is that the Emperor's Imperium has nearly the same aesthetics as 40K.

The skulls and purity seals and shit have no place in a Fedoratopia, everything should be roman viking or mongol themed that's it. All the gothic medieval and baroque ranaissance stuff comes latter.
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>>86830267
The Emperor made an undisclosed pact with Chaos to create the Primarchs, he knew it would backfire somehow and I suspect he knew they would be scattered. That's ok bc it lets him claim that he would've been the perfect dad if only he hadn't had this oppsie daisy
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>>86832781
it's the Quran
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>>86815528
>Horus Heresy novels
they are bad novels
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>>86832871
>Tau
Are a pyramid scheme of biologically predetermined castes that exist solely to service the ones at the top with no social mobility and no care for the individual if it would in any way hinder the whole. They use propaganda and brainwashing to expand and maintain an underclass of menial workers and chaff troops that they send to die as coldly and callously as any Imperial commander, but they dress it up with "for the greater good" instead of "for the emperor" when assaulting the worlds that didn't take the propaganda and while herding them into the brainwashing camps, so it's magically made morally good because they have nice tech and their comparatively small society allows them to allocate resources more plentifully than a hive world, which, we must acknowledge, represents a minority of Imperial worlds but is always treated as universally the norm when this argument kicks up.
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>>86835063
Chaos CLAIMS there was a pact. Chaos lies all the fucking time.
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>>86815693
Space Marines are literally programmed to be obedient to their Primarchs, it makes sense the Emperor applied the same thing to the Primarchs themselves.
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>227 replies
>13 images
It's called an imageboard you lazy fucks.
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>>86818936
>Your answer implies the Emperor gives a shit about human life. He does not care about what people think.
This is exaclty the kind of retardation OP made the thread about.
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>>86835945
Okay but by that argument why did any of the primarchs flip on him if they were made to be obedient?
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>>86835919
>with no social mobility
They DO have social mobility
Within their caste
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>>86836103
>Your devotion to the greater good has been noted and you have earned a promotion! From now on you will mine ore with a pick instead of a shovel! Keep up the good work and one day, maybe it will be YOU driving the Excavator!
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>>86836052
the indomitable (super)human spirit
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>>86815528
The Emperor wants to save mankind, but he sees every human and the primarchs as just miniatures/tools to be used. And if you don't get that, just mash ALL the primarchs together and that makes Big E (since all the primarchs are just different traits and skills of him, with Khan being the most like him)
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>>86832871
The tau are fucking gay and just make everyone else look fucking stupid.
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>>86815528
>I was disappointed in how the Horus Heresy novels portrayed the Emperor
Novelising the Horus Heresy was always a mistake, it should have remained as myths and legends
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>>86836236
Literally describing the Imperium
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>>86823903
>We can definitively say Guilliman, the Khan didn’t like him
I don't know, I think Bobby liked him during the HH, it was only after coming back to life that he questioned his loyalties.
Indeed, his whole story arc seems to be about how he once loved the Emperor, but now he hates him and doesn't view him as a father, though maybe big E is secretly actually a God.
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>>86815693
>it also doesn't make sense that Horus, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Lorgar and Magnus would be so desperate for his love and approval if he was so terrible
Mate have you actually ever encountered a bad father? Disregarding 40k, children almost always are desperate to get their attention since they're denied from getting it naturally. Then in their adolescence they rebel against them, but Primarchs are basically pubescent kids with bodies of demigods.
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>>86835063
No longer canon, it was literally all Erda. Nothing would have gone wrong if not for her, and she didn’t do it at the urging of Chaos, they were as confused as anybody else.
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>>86831595
lol
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>>86839116
>literally retconned the Scattering into another "Karen took the kids" moment
What the hell were they thinking
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>>86838535
>Primarchs are basically pubescent kids with bodies of demigods
The worst part of the Horus Heresy
They might as well have called it Manchild Space War
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>>86839286
>Manchild Space War
It was apeing greek myth so that part was fitting
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>>86837970
>Literally describing the Imperium
Nah, in the Imperium the Shovel, Pick and especially the Excavator are all more valuable than the person using them.
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>>86827056
I'm pretty sure the Fall happened in M30, the Warp storms preceding it began in m25
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>>86827268
I barely know the true depths of Wh40k lore but this makes me feel a lot of Emps logic and how this(modern wh40k) was the best outcome of the HH.

Now that makes me remember a simple theory I had some time ago. In the novel "Master of Mankind"(I think I am not sure) the Emps shows a custodian how his precognition works by multiple branches and how he sees an ending but no the steps towards it(I think Its been a long time since I read that quote).
My theory was... that the plan was still going and the original outcome he wanted before the HH is still possible and going. Maybe the precognition could be extended and changed some-what by chaos but the emperor is powerful enough to see a fake ending and the precognition still shows him the ending he wanted.
That was pure shitty fanfic level plot so whatever.
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>>86830733
>Isha whispers the cures for diseases in the dreams of human scientists
I didn't know that part.
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>>86843984
Idk about that, some lore stated that there were massive warp storms across the galaxy that precipitated slaanesh, and the craftworld eldar started leaving round about the same time the men of iron were kicking off which was right at the end of the DAoT circa M25. The same warp storms wouldn't dissipate for thousands of years after slaanesh's birth, because the emperor definitely had to wait before he could get the great crusade started.
Or maybe they did happen separately and chaos didn't hit them both at the same time. The lore of that era is deliberately muddy and often contradictory, but chaos' MO for toppling the galaxy is usually hit everything everywhere at the same time.
What we do know is that humanity and the eldar had some kind of alliance so maybe they worked together, but it would explain the eldar's reputation for untrustworthiness if humanity reached out for help and the supposed masters of the psychic arts were too busy getting high on space crack to lift a finger.
>>
Magnus had been repeatedly told not to fuck with the warp. Navigators have lifelong conditioning to resist the warp, an ordinary human with a sextant does not.
Even the emperor, the single most powerful psyker in the galaxy, didn't peer into the deep warp and told Magnus again and again that He didn't have the capability to resist what was in there. He explicitly told Magnus that there were malevolent forces in the warp, but Magnus was too arrogant to listen.
Pert saw that, and he could see the eye of terror from anywhere in the galaxy that nobody else could see. Pert knew intuitively what the emperor had to learn and what Magnus refused to learn.
Magnus' sextant would have doomed humanity by allowing normal unconditioned humans to directly interact with the warp. Eldrad Ulthran probably has night terrors about such a device.
Pert didn't smash the sextant to be a cunt, he smashed it to say "your arrogance is going to kill us all, stop fucking around with powers you don't understand"
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>>86837970
And? It applies to both, does that somehow magically make it better when the blue retards do it?
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>>86844862
>All Navigators have a third eye, commonly called the "Warp eye," on their foreheads, which allows them to perceive the "psychic light" known as the Astronomican, enabling them to fully use their powers in guiding Human starships through the currents of the Warp.
A device which allows you to perceive and track the light of the astronomican for the purpose of creating reliable maps and navigating the tides of the warp, that's what we're talking about.
>Magnus' sextant would have doomed humanity by allowing normal unconditioned humans to directly interact with the warp.
There is no grounds on which to say this, at all. If anything the machine is safer than a navigator, because you can always pluck up some dipshit and teach him to use the device, whereas a navigator who snaps is nowhere near as easily replaced, and if he loses his shit mid warp journey, you're all fucked.
>Pert didn't smash the sextant to be a cunt,
He literally did though. He suspected the device was fucky and, rather than present it to the Emperor as proof positive Magnus was poking things that shouldn't be poked, he waited for the moment in which the destruction of the device would be most painful for Magnus. He deliberately chose to do the cruelest, most cuntish thing he possibly could in that moment in defiance of other, perfectly viable and in some ways better options, because he saw a chance to sink in the knife and twist it.
>he smashed it to say "your arrogance is going to kill us all, stop fucking around with powers you don't understand"
And he chose the worst possible way to do it. If you ask me to chip in to buy a really fancy liquor, and when it arrives I wait for you to get the glasses to smash the bottle on the ground then turn to you and say "alcohol is bad for you, let this be a lesson to you not to drink alcohol" that would make me an enormous douche. Perturabo should have been intelligent enough to know better, but he chose to be cruel, because that's what he does.
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>>86815693
>it also doesn't make sense that Horus, Perturabo, Fulgrim, Lorgar and Magnus would be so desperate for his love and approval if he was so terrible
They were desperate for his love and approval BECAUSE he was terrible. If he would have just expressed his love to his kids, most of them would have turned out fine.
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>>86845833
>If you ask me to chip in to buy a really fancy liquor, and when it arrives I wait for you to get the glasses to smash the bottle on the ground then turn to you and say "alcohol is bad for you, let this be a lesson to you not to drink alcohol" that would make me an enormous douche.
I have literally done that (except I flushed ket down the loo when my brother relapsed) so I'm probably the wrong person to have this convo with
Pert is a cunt, I'm not arguing that, and he's going to deal with problems like a cunt. Magnus' arrogance was a massive, potentially galaxy ending, problem.
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>>86847448
>Magnus' arrogance was a massive, potentially galaxy ending, problem.
Don't think I don't see what you've done. Magnus was arrogant and it did fuck him and everyone else in the end, but you have yet to explain why precisely the Antikythera was such an immense danger. If anything it was less dangerous, as it allowed you to, as a navigator perceives the Astronomican, navigate the tides of the warp and chart out safe courses on maps without the need to directly interact with the warp itself as a navigator has to. It would have made the navigators irrelevant, removing one of the biggest reasons to keep the golden throne and human webway a secret. It was a device that could have changed everything, and Perturabo destroyed it solely to be an asshole. It wasn't even the most effective way for him to deliver his message, that would have been report it to the Emperor or failing that, Malcador, and give them the thing as proof so they could come and personally give Magnus a spanking.
Hell, it's described as being a work of unparalleled craftsmanship, so turning it in would have seen Perturabo hailed as the single greatest inventor in the history of the Imperium. So not only has he in a single instant irreparably damaged any kind of affection his brother had for him, he's sabotaged himself more than anyone ever did in his delusions.
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>>86844836
I think the Warp storms dissipated immediately after the Fall, disappated by the birth screams of Slaanesh
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>>86847544
I agree with you on most account, but is there any way to know that the Antikythera wouldn't expose the mind of someone using it to the warp the same way a navigator has to? Because, again i almost totally agree with you, but from what i've read, we only know what it could do, not how safe it was.
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>>86847955
It's never explained beyond Magnus explaining that it is a technological device capable of of allowing non-psykers to navigate in the warp via the Astronomican. I would, however, point out two things. First, it is mechanical device, admittedly psychic in nature, but still a machine. It is not going to be a simple thing to try and taint or corrupt it like a warp entity theoretically could with a navigator, and the guys working the thing wouldn't exactly be weak willed. Second, consider what I said before. If the navigator dies or flips his shit mid warp jump, you're fucked. With the antikythera, or one of the mass produced copies that all parties involved save the navigators would want to make happen, if the operator dies or goes nuts, you can just teach some other tard to do the same job. It would kill the stranglehold of the navigators and things would have maybe been better.
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>>86846037
Still fucking retarded that he didn't at least fake it. But supposedly he's the most intelligent human being ever or something.
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>>86827175
>perpetuals
>kys
They can't
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>>86849067
John did but he got better
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>>86831595
based
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>>86815528
And I just like it. Emperor is just an asshole with god-level psyker abilities.
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>>86835919
>Hive worlds are a minority
In terms of planets in the imperium, sure. In terms of population, though? I could believe half the imperial population lives in hives, or even more. Non hive worlds tend to top off in population count around where earth is now, call it 10 billion to be generous. Meanwhile hive worlds can go upwards of 100 billion, and 1/10 worlds in the imperium being hive worlds sounds about right. Then there’s all the worlds that don’t come close to that 10 billion mark, the feudal worlds, the death worlds, the mining colonies and industrialized Agri worlds and oceanic pleasure worlds etc etc. Hell, this can be true on lower levels too. That industrialized agri world probably has a small hive on it, and goddamn if that hive doesn’t have as many people in it as the rest of the planet put together.
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>>86818792
All of what you wrote can be explained by two words: bad writing. Don't believe me? Imagine the entire Heresy story being limited to, let's say 3 books all written by one (1) author, a professional who had published science fiction or horror before. Peter Watts, Joe Hill King (Stephen's son), hell fucking Dan Abnett because for the most part he's consistently good. Had GW limited the HH to 3 books and one author it would be worlds better overall.
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>>86850436
But how then would GW milk the Horse Heresy series until its udder falls off?
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>>86850537
>But how then would GW milk the Horse Heresy series until its udder falls off?
Milk it? Why whatever do you mean?
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>>86850643
A forest died for this
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>>86830267
>She single-handedly caused EVERYTHING. Even the Chaos Gods have no fucking clue why she did what she did, it is incomprehensible to them that she would so completely betray humanity and almost hand victory to them on a silver platter over a fit of pique; that the Emperor managed to claw back what he could to manage a stalemate/draw in the end says a lot about his abilities.
It's highly obvious when you think about it, asit all is pertaining to the parameter that affects this story and all other things in reality.
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>>86848236
Different anon here. Just wanted to point out that
>First, it is mechanical device, admittedly psychic in nature, but still a machine. It is not going to be a simple thing to try and taint or corrupt it like a warp entity theoretically could with a navigator
is not a solid argument. Chaos can corrupt machines. I remember a story about a mechanicum robot that was treated as part of a legion for some deeds done in some backwater battlefield (much to its tech priest's chagrin) and how it was starting to do illogical things seemingly on its own.
Also the whole thing with the Vengeful Spirit having a will of its own. Or was it the World Eater's flagship?
Then there's the Dark Mechanicum robots. And finally there's the "scrap code" that infected Calth's orbital defenses. Although you could say all my examples are things that are not "purely" mechanical (meaning they have some sort of embedded computer at least).
Still, it's all just theoretical. Pert should have given the device to Malcador or the Emperor, but that wouldn't be the Perturabo thing to do.
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>>86818488
>Fate is going to move its arms like this...if you get hit its your own fault.
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>>86818792
Given the cynical nature of the writings it's likely they really do see that as a display of humanities potential, a bastard of power and ego the galaxy would be better off without.

The Men of Iron Did nothing Wrong
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>>86827609
The issue is that thr author of the last church has openly stated that he wrote that the emperor was objectively right.
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>>86837957
The books at minimum should have used framing devices and unreliable in universe sources to keep details mysterious. "This is a story as told by Lorgar, how much is true is hard to say"
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>>86849166
Its boring, no drama, no pathos, its just "and he and humanity got everything they deserved, fuck them"
>>
Perturabo did nothing wrong and just wanted to be acknowledged by Papa E and his brothers.

He did not succumb to the temptations of chaos like his weak siblings. Even now, then thousand years later. Chaos is but one of the many tools Perurabo and his chapter use and abuse in order to conquer their enemies.

Iron Within Iron Without brothers.
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>>86819846
fulgrim confirmed worst primarch AGAIN
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>>86856521
>t. IW daemon prince
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>>86815528
it's just degenerative revisionism
new writers using it as a waiting room for bigger opportunities as they pick the carcass
moral relativism, scrubbing of all humor, what was once ironic is played straight, heroes are passe, virtuous good leadership figures are not allowed to be male or white, those that were are retconned killed off or transformed

shits been going on for a decade now in GW, 3 decades everywhere else, it just hits niche hobbies slower (except for comics which got destroyed in a span of 3 years)



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