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What went so horribly wrong?
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>>86815267
For one they changed the introduction blurb at the start of each novel. It went from evocative to bland.
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3E.
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The same thing thats gone wrong with every edition since 7th. GW just kept heaping more and more rules onto it. I've never seen any other wargame company try to fix broken factions by just giving an entire new faction wide rule rather than just adjusting the rules already in place.
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>>86815286
What did they change it to?
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>>86815267
codexes made without thinking about the greater whole, drastic reactionary changes after single events

40k codexes are never particularly well balanced but this edition has felt completely schizophrenic thanks to the way they've handled errata. The much greater emphasis on balancing the rules makes the typical GW ineptitude more of a problem than it was in older times where it was presented as more of a sideshow.
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>>86815267
You samefagged too much ben.
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Do people actually doctrines and similar rules? Seems like annoying bloat and just more shit to keep track of.
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>>86815334
actually like*
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Dumbed-down rules and dumbed-down lore for dumbed-down customers.
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>>86815267
powercreep
rules bloat
not enough squatting of marines
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>>86815267
Constant 'leaks', simply shit marketing shenanigans.

Those cunts on tabletop titans channel revealing they work at Google.

Every codex more powerful than the last, for exactly 1 month. Then nerf.

Slopchop being the single gayest forced meme youtube 40k community has ever produced.

Squidmar revealing he's never played a GW game and then immediately release gaming vids becuase his media advisors told him to.

The most expensive forgeworld knights getting ignored as a fuck you to forgeworld.

Imperial firsts. Bolters.

A new 'check my prideflag themed marine' on reddit EVERY FUCKING WEEK.

9TH edition is fucking gay and I'm going to play 6th Ed fantasy for the rest of my life. Fuck everyother edition of anything.
>>
Points are dumb. Games should be decided by who destroys the other army.
Armour of Contempt.
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>>86815378
>Squidmar revealing he's never played a GW game
Did he actually admit that?
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>>86815381
>Games should be decided by who destroys the other army.
>The chaos forces have successfully implanted scrapcode into all of this planet's central computers but we killed all of their cultists so let's chalk this up to a win
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>>86815384
He's basically an instagram model that learnt to paint so he could get clicks.
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>>86815267
Frankly I don't mind it. I don't find it worse than 8th and 7th. Then again to me it's all just a vehicle for me to play with the little plastic soldiers I've painted.
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...
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>>86815381
Do you mean objectives? You need important things to take and hold in the middle of the table so melee armies are actually effective and you can't just sit on the backline shooting all game. Leave your deployment zone, bitch.
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>>86815418

Mission cards have been in the game since the 90s. Newfags going to newfag.
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>>86815267
This game is no longer for stupid people
Way too many rules and too constant of changes
Only those who actually ’get’ the game will win 99% of the time
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>>86815444
I get what you're saying, but two of those include nothing but killing enemy forces, killing certain enemy forces, or being in a certain area while also killing enemy forces. And honestly, that's perfect. The combat score should be number 1, with various take and hold elements sprinkled through. The current game has armies taking the lead with points on the first and second turns from staying in their deployment zone and doing nothing. Army specific objectives should just be suggestions for alternate game modes, not additions to the current generic scoring system.
Nurgle trying to poison the well should be an entire themed match.
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>>86815267
The codexes.
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>>86815392
>The Orks have won because they've been completely wiped out but they raised a banner
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>>86815446
The game isn't for smart people either. Its for pseuds who think complexity is the same as depth.
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>>86815500
Double dubs of truth. The game plays itself.
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>>86815378
>lists barely 2 things that have anything to do with 9th edition
>the rest is ecelebs and twitter drama
>in the end picks 6th edition of all things, the start of the decline of the old ruleset that led into the actual worst edition of 7th, as his retro edition

This post is concentrated cancer.
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>>86815500
True pseuds play MTG with complex synergy decisions. They like to explain how complex the synergy is while your waiting for your next turn.
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>>86815529
All of those things took place during 9th edition.

An edition isn't the written content, it's the zeitgeist of hat edition.
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>>86815316
Since 5th*
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>>86815541
You don't need to explain your rationale to me, I understood it from the beginning and am still dismissing it as cancer.
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Strategames were a mistake.
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>>86815529
The old edition declined after 4th. Honestly the 3rd edition rules should not have been iterated on after that.
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The game should defnitely be WAY less complicated. Number creep needs to be pulled back significantly. Why do half the units in the game have ap-1 BARE MINIMUM?

Give me a mix of 6th edition and 3e AOS.
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>>86815267
Same problems as eighth just worse.
>stratagems
>knee jerk reactions when writing errata
>poor rules writing
>poor QC in publications
40k peaked in 5th edition, it's been downhill since then.
The fact GW has yet to implement a more interesting turn sequence shows they are complete retards.
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>>86815737
>Why do half the units in the game have ap-1 BARE MINIMUM?
>Me with Armour of Contempt
They have ap?
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>>86815740
>40k peaked in 5th edition
Based. Bring back Looted Wagons and boomguns
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>>86815529
He's talking about WHF 6e, though it too is horribly overrated trash.
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Unfortunately unless 40K takes like a 5 year break between releases to write, design, and test each codex against each other before releasing them all at once, the game will never be balanced.
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>>86815761
Yeah... Those were the days.
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>>86815267
The big things are the massive rules bloat and blatant codex creep.
New model design has taken a step back, but unless you're a Guard player that's a way smaller issue than the rules bloat.
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>>86815500
What is someone who is bad at the game then?
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>>86815698
Having an entire deck of them was a mistake. You should have a handful of generic ones likes CP reroll and Overwatch, and be allowed to pick 4 army specific ones based on your faction and playstyle.
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The R pokes outside the logo, and the A isn't centered.
If they can't be bothered to fix that, why should I expect any care to be put into the game?
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>>86815761
no those were fun and awesome
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They changed the way they wrote codices halfway through the edition which resulted in some armies being completely left behind in the powercreep. The edition was also bloated from the very start and has only gotten more bloated. Way too many bandaids that complicate things further. Way too much of an emphasis on competitive play to the point where the entire wargame feels more like an abstracted board game than anything else. Some stratagems are okay but they're way too overbearing.
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>>86815267
Stat and dice inflation. Everything has to get buffed stats/increased damage output with every new release to the point where it's just ridiculous.
Played horus heresy last weekend and it was refreshing how much better it felt.

Simple fix would be by and large returning to the way things worked in earlier editions, meaning
>roughly halve the wound count of all models/generic troups get 1W, even muh primaris
>halve the attack count of everything as well
>make re-rolls and FnP-style saves the exception rather than basically everything having one
>do away entirely with the damage characteristic, everything does 1 damage by default
>reduce reactions to one per phase
>optional but personal preference: give vehicles armour values/hull points etc again rather than them being essentially big monsters
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>>86816554
*troops

Also arguably get rid of the vast majority of stratagems and the whole CP system.
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>>86816554
I also don't like how armies have gotten way more methods for rerolls whether it's on 1's or failures in addition to ways of automatically getting results without having to roll for them such as Born Soldiers or the nerfed Votann ability.
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>>86815378
>Slopchop being the single gayest forced meme youtube 40k community has ever produced.
Explain how this is specific to 40k instead of a marketing scheme for a line of paints that isn't even GW.

Ignoring that the method existed for years, I remember a tutorial from the old Warmachine forum, except nobody who wanted to save time bothered to mix their own glaze-alikes then.
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>>86815481
If they're dead they're dead and that don't count as losing. If they ran away they can always come back for another go.
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>>86816554
>do away entirely with the damage characteristic, everything does 1 damage by default
..Then you're not doing away with it entirely in any capacity, ya fuckin' brainlet
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>>86815378

>Squidmar revealing he's never played a GW game and then immediately release gaming vids becuase his media advisors told him to.

"This dude with a nice workshop, successful YouTube career, house in the woods, wife, and 3 kids focuses more on making videos and painting than going to the LGS to play with smelly neckbeards, we have to expose him!"
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This thread is barely about the edition itself why are warhammer fans like this.

Youtubers? Lore? What the fuck is with you people now you are fight eachother over nonsense
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>>86817062
/tg/ is like 10% people who actually play/hobby thr other 90% is lore only and people who hearsay over 9th
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I hate this edition because no matter how hard i try, I cant get better at the game, always forgetting the million rules or trying to play objectives only for my shit to just fucking die instantly
this gay ass game is a fucking waste of time
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>>86817100
I think /tg/ has more people engaging with the hobby side than 40kfans on average
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>grogs say 9th is too simple
>9th is also too hard to remeber

I keep seeing this if you guys think strats are hard by god the old AP table must have been abstract
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I like 9th on a bigger table and more terrain thats your issue buddy boys
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>>86816216
I think the idea of what a stratagem is needs to be re-worked. No more do X but do it better strategems; move special rules back onto the unit. Strategems should be something where the resource allocation between them makes sense. For instance I think the webway strike and orbital bombardment make good strategems.

But the notion of picking a few as part of list building is cool too.
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>>86817174
The only thing I didn't have memorized way back when was the WS hit table. I think it changed between 3rd and 4th or something right?
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>>86816991
No, the damage characteristic would be no longer listed, because an unsaved wound leads to the loss of one wound. No need for semantics
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>>86815267
nothing? its great and the best the game has ever been?
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>>86817174
9th is a little hard to remember but I guess it depends on the army you're playing with. When it comes to my ad mech army there's a stupid amount of things to remember compared to earlier editions.
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One of the big issues was inherited from 8e. The "bespoke" shit. Every time I play with anyone who started prior to 8e, we all do the same shit. "This unit has fleet, this one has FnP, this other unit is Stubborn." The rules meanwhile has Iron Body, Hideous Biology and Blartiblart's Bubonic Blessing all being the same fucking rule, but the rules team got hooked *bespoke rules*. Bespoke my arse. Fancy names aren't bespoke, it's just tedious bullshit.
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>>86815267
>Stratagems
>reroll auras
>reroll abilities
>reroll faction abilities
>My rule nullifies your rule
>Constant codex creep again and again and again
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>>86815378
>Those cunts on tabletop titans channel revealing they work at Google.
One of them... (out of 5) used to he headed the Stadia division (before he left). Tabletop Titans was his passion project.
What's the problem? Genuine question.
For the record, used to watch em, don't anymore. Adrian is a cheating, sore-loser, cry-baby.
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>>86815267
Would it be easier to state what went right? The core rules are simple and easy to learn. That's all I can think of....everything else is what went horrible wrong, and 10th edition is just going to repeat this trash without any meaningful change.
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>>86815267
It’s not fun.
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>>86817174
AP table is the same for all factions. Just print it out or have it in your phone. Now, remembering all stratagems and doctrines for each faction/sub faction is just too much work for me
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Old grogs should go the way of the dodo. Make way for the new wave faggots and stop complaining.
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>>86815267
Strats went out of control.
Blatant power creep (and certain codices that got left behind, like SM, GSC, etc)
Inability to balance secondaries.
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>>86815378
Sir the CORRECT answer is 7th edition with 6th edition books.
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>>86815444
Those were removed in 3rd onward you disingenuous faggot
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>>86815529
7th edition was bad because of the books, not the core rules. It refined some of the more tedious shit from 6th
Then Matt Ward literally broke the game with Chaos Daemons.
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>>86816554
>Everything does 1 damage by default

And then everyone spams the weapons that do 2 or 3 damage
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>>86815761
Take me back anon
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>>86817151
>I can't get better at 40k
Have you tried buying new shit and copying lists off the internet, do you even know how to argue over a rule for 2 hours until they get frustrated and let you use it how you want?
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>>86815384
I thought he played when he was a teenager?
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9th is an autistic card game where it’s all about combos and spending meta currency to activate trap cards and other shit. It can barely be called a wargame
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>>86818628
>It’s not fun.
I used to collect and play a little when I was a teenager. I tried the newest edition recently with Indomitus and you are right, the game just isn't fun.
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>>86815481
>Despite destroying the Ork Vanguard, the guard regiments see the banners of Orkz flying over a key part of the battleground. Morale plummets as the mortals believe the Orkz triumphant, and begin to retreat, allowing the Orkz to route them.
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>>86816216
This. When there's a million stratagems, I remember the core ones: reroll a die, auto-pass morale.
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>>86816554
HH jumps through hoops with special rules to functionally add multiple damage back in with rules like Brutal and Exoshock. The damage characteristic isn't a problem, and removing it both doesn't do anything to actually address power creep and also crrates the problem of requiring special exceptions to enable weapons to do multiple damage, recreating the 6th/7th edition problem of USR spam.
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>>86818927
I like calling it an abstracted boardgame because it doesn't really feel like a board game where your models interact with the table or anything like that.
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I miss him
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>>86818321
>he headed the Stadia division
Oh boy.
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>>86819485
He wasn't that bad at writing rules, his codexes were generally balanced against one another. He shouldn't be allowed to write fluff though.
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>>86819689
I found it funny how he got an avalanche of hate for how he wrote Ultramarines when on closer inspection like 75% of it is straight-up copy/pasted from 2E's Codex: Ultramarines.
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>>86815267

You could just play OPR, you know.
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>>86819946
>homebrew
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>>86817174
The move to 8th saw us lose a lot of variety in terms of how different types of units operate (chiefly vehicles and morale) and what's more we lost USRs. As a result the base game became much simpler with fewer in-game options and less variety in interactions between unit types.
James instead introduced complexity with traits, stratagems and doctrines. Trouble is most of these don't affect in-game decisions; they're always on or no-brainers which make you better at what you were going to do anyway. The "depth" they offer rewards remembering every faction's unique kit so you can mitigate it instead of rewarding mastery of the base rules. However, solid in-game tactical decisions can easily fall victim to a niche stratagem you didn't account for because you didn't study enough for the exam (the "gotcha" moments people complain about) and that just ain't fun. 9th exacerbated the problem by bloating unique faction rules even more.
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>>86819984
or homebrew if you want, that's an option too
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>>86820032
A lot of it really is no-brainer stuff. Do I take the good subfaction or the bad one? Do I take the unit that benefits from stratagems more or the one that doesn't? Do I take the cool weapon relic for a guy that can't be kitted for close combat at all or do I take the relic that gives full rerolls for all my dudes within 6"? It sucks.
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>>86817053
>I paid Losers on Fiverr to White Knight me on 4chan
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>>86815481
Are you really using the aliens that explode into spores when they die as your example of winning by just killing everyone
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>>86816216
that's kinda how AoS does it with commands
you have a few universal commands and then certain leader models have unique ones
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>>86819735
I remember more hate for Grey Knights than Ultras.
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>>86820642
>>86816216

There's also the 30k version where there's more generic ones and each faction gets an army specific one usable once per game.
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>>86815267
rules bloat finally hitting the breaking point, stat inflation, schizophrenic balancing, the continued existence of numarines, and, worst of all, the new logo.
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>>86817174
i have tested stratagems one time, it is impossible to remember all that junk but it still haunts you constantly by being an option
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>>86815316
*Since Rogue Trader.
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>>86815444
Seeing these makes me almost miss 2nd. Almost.
>>
They should have stick to indexes with armies of renown/new units updates every month if they wanted to add variety, the idea of balance update is ok, but it's working on a heavily flawed model where you can see heavy balance creep every new release.
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>>86820642
AoS issue is that the universal command abilities are so good that you must use them, being buffs like +1 save, +1 to hit, etc. that it is not a decision or tool, it is something you are forced to use or else you'll be at a major disadvantage. I think the core concept is fine but they made them way too key to the game's design and balance that it still comes off as card game tier
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>>86815267
What went wrong with every IP in the past 10 years?
Magic, DnD, Blizzard, Sony, and Warhammer all took a serious nosedive, to name a few.
Completely unrelated: A glowie became head of Blizz in recent years.
ESG's its ESG's
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>>86815267
too many rules, spread over too many sources.

scoring mechanics too complicated

strategems out of hand and bloated

codex balance on release so bad they get day zero patches that invalidate half the books.
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>>86815267
When they turned it into a Live Service business model instead of a tabletop miniatures game.

Everything wrong with 40k as a game related to the fact that GW is a miniatures company that uses the game as a marketing tool to shift stock.
And generation after generation of people keep rediscovering this because the sales model is based on churn first to shift miniatures to new customers, and retention only of those willing to keep hopping on the latest new shit, and it's only ever gone harder on that, with an occasional reset on the game system when it being such a mess sufficiently affects sales.
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>>86821599
>codex balance on release so bad they get day zero patches that invalidate half the books.
This seems to have been caused by GW balancing the codex in waves internally, then releasing them one at a time, only to nerf them before the next one comes out.

This could be resolved by actually releasing the army books in the waves they were written in rather than dripping finished products out one at a time as part of a sales strategy. It also won't happen.
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>>86815267
> No coherent vision from first codex to last.
> Gimmicks in build listing over on-the-board gameplay (army rules, stratagems, keywords combos)
> Too much focus on big "main character" models, leaving your dudes in the dust.
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>>86815789
This, why test anything when you can get the playerbase to do it for free?
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>>86818321
And after all that, Brian was the only tolerable one.
>Adrian is a perpetual virtue signaller who can't go 15 seconds without saying "let's do this thing"
>Bridger is a low functioning invalid who can't remember rules more complicated than "charge them turn 2"
>John is the most vanilla human being ever conceived
>Zack is an autistic manchild
And their painting absolutely blows. Laughably bad.

The fact these guys are the most prolific battle report channel is a waste.
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>>86815759
Armour of contempt was a bandaid in response to the AP creep
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>>86819485
It's crazy that the worst things about his lore are basically Shakespeare compared to how bad the 40K era lore got from Gathering Storm onwards. Ohhhh no he said Ultramarines were really cool. He wrote one questionable isolated and ignorable anecdote about grey knights. Gathering Storm and Primaris and Cawl et al literally completely ruined and eliminated everything good and unique about the universe on every level
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>>86815737
cute teddy :)
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>>86815737
Yeah the current state of the game means very few rolls or targets actually use their target numbers. Everything is modified, endlessly modified by AP, AoC, bonuses to charge, minuses to hit or wound, it's an immense amount of overhead to keep track of when looking at the actual stats on the page / on battlescribe only ever tell half the story.
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>>86816554
>Played horus heresy last weekend and it was refreshing how much better it felt.
>2e heresy
>refeshing
dude what drives a man to step into a sewer and say "This is great, i prefer it to my previous home."
>>
Common sense changes for 10th that will never be adopted:

>Cap AP at -3 for the overwhelming majority of weapons. Maybe allow exactly 1 AP-4 weapon per faction. No more AP-5.

>Each faction should have no more than 1 anti-invuln weapon.

>Detachments gone - only keep a troop tax, a heavy support cap, only one lord of war allowed, and only in 2000-point games.
Knights are relegated to Imperium/Chaos support units to accommodate this.

>No fucking wargear stratagems. Each faction has no more than 3 stratagems of each category (3 battle tactics, 3 strategic ploys, etc.)

>Each faction's stratagems are all printed in a single, separate book or available for free online in a single PDF.
Less gotcha moments when everyone can see everyone else's stratagems in one place.
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>>86821111
Wokeness.
Started in late 2010.
>>
>>86823401
>>Cap AP at -3 for the overwhelming majority of weapons. Maybe allow exactly 1 AP-4 weapon per faction. No more AP-5.
How would this work for armies like marines, where AP changes in different turns? Or would you scrap that entirely
I'm not opposed to removing armies "turn based rules" but some of them like chaos knights add a lot to the fluff and help balance out a loss of units for more powerful units
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>>86823452
Never modify AP. AP is already a powerful modifier in its own right. Fucking with it more will create more potential for problems.
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>>86821111
Trannies and lizards are in charge of everything
>>
Feels like your playing a game and the fluff is too fluffy. Oldhammer was mysterious and treated you like a general , it was engrossing.
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>>86815645
yes but 5th was also the edition where infantry stopped mattering completely and Matt Ward began writing.
>>86815722
Why are there no modified 3rd edition fan rules? And why would nobody play them if there where?
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>>86823054
i will take the stagnation over ward era any day. because with that stagnation comes security.
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>>86818741
7th whfb should of been an errata document and a print run amendment. It did not deserve to be an edition on its own. They crapped it out for its own sake to force a round of book churn.
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>>86823519
I think there's a lot of truth to that. Most of these problems with infantry survivability and oneupsmanship stem from GW making everything AP1 or better, then everything needs either an inv or a 2+ to survive meaningfully, and then you have to patch it with stuff like AoC or inv-ignoring stuff which should've been the purview of ctan phase weapons and anti daemon shit only.
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>>86815267
Trannies and liberals, same as everywhere else.
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>>86824666
I think you just have an obsession, Satan.
>>
>>86823519
>>86824570
I think the most egregious is high ROF, high AP weapons like the redemptor plasma cannon. High AP weapons should be a threat to individual models with large squads able to soak it up. The railgun and the votaan breaking the cardinal "no damage spillover" rule was peak idiocy of this edition
>>
>>86815378
>gay forced meme 40k community
Isn't that just the 40k community?
>>
for me is AoS, really hard for me to turn back now
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>>86823304
9th edition does that to a man
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>>86817174
the core rules are too simple while the stratagems/doctrines/armywiderules buffs are too gay to remember yet have no depth, nor do they feel fluffy or interesting.
i'd be happy going back to literally any edition just to get away from the buff bloat of 9th.
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>>86815316
but the addition of powercreeped rules is how they promote the sale of each new model! They just add rules and power ups until the game is unplayable, then reset and start again wirth a new edition. They have done it eight times so far, it's a wonder that more players dont sopt this tactic of theirs.
>>
>>86815267
The core rules they've been building and ""innovating"" upon since second edition are fundamentally mediocre, and that mediocrity is exacerbated into outright badness with all the bloat and band-aid fixes they keep trying to throw onto 40k's heaving corpse. They've been doing it for decades, it's just particularly bad this edition with how fast they're churning out new rules.
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>>86824878
> high ROF, high AP weapons like the redemptor plasma cannon.
>D6 shots that have to roll to hit
Anon are you being retarded on purpose? Devastators used to carry 3" blast plasma cannons that wiped out entire hordes of 2+ save dudes on a 2+ to wound.
Prior to 8th, two command squads with meltaguns and plasma guns/flamers could wipe out any vehicle or deathstar on turn 1 from reserve.
And it didnt matter because the entire game revolved around some form of Eldar faggots on jetbikes zooming across the board or Riptides abusing how absolutely shit the system was without a damage characteristic on weapons.

Remember, when people say they want to go back to pre-8th, they are literally saying they want to get raped by Shadowsun joining a single Riptide to make an unkillable deathstar, and want the game to be completely decided by jetbikes.
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>>86815267
>small boards
>tourneyfag shit
That's it.
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>>86825759
>I started playing in 6th
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>>86816554
>do away entirely with the damage characteristic, everything does 1 damage by default
bad take imo. A lasgun shot should not do the same damage as a quake cannon.
Damage is like AP - the concept isn't bad, it's just been rolled out too high to too many things.
>>
>>86825994
you've been conditioned by bloated wound stats to think damage matters

vehicles shouldn't have wounds and super huge vehicles shouldn't be in the game
>>
>>86815267
pandering to the tournament scene, it's an age old story you can find from magic to wow and beyond. Every company obsesses with their game having a sports scene to bring in Ad revenue and generate hype without needing actual releases/content and it always goes tits up because fun dies on the vine of competition.
>>
>>86825994
a lasgun is vastly different to a quake cannon when templates, instant death and av are a thing
>>
>>86815289
Spbp
>>
>>86815267
>stratagems and command points
>removing options because hobbylets
>new models having too many weapons
>didnt bring back USRs
>primaris

other than that the base game is basically fine
>>
>>86826742
oh and AP needs to become a hybrid version of the current and pre-8th system i.e. heavy bolter being AP4 -1 - it reduces saves by 1 for units that have 4+ or worse armour save. things like that. then AoC isnt needed
>>
It doubled down on a lot of issues 8th edition created and didn’t offer fixes.
I personally was frustrated by the removal of templates in 8th and the new armor system looked promising but overall sucked. Stratagems were a mess too. For a specific list of 9th issues though:
>rules bloat
>tons of armywide rules that are unnecessary
>armor pen and damage bloat
>armor and damage reduction rules to combat the bloat
>pages of shit stratagems
>removal of iconic wargear, customization, units, turned into fucking stratagems
>book bloat (need 4 books to play one army)
>uninteresting missions and scoring
>insane power creep
>lethality through the roof, units get deleted in one shooting/melee phase now
Overall the game is less customizable, less personal, super high lethality “removing units from the board” with single attack phases, and the stratagems are a mess. Armor rarely matters since everything gains bonus rend and brings your saves to 5/6+, and if you happen to have a 4++ they just use mortal wounds to cut clean through it anyway. The magic system is a joke too. Not so much the method of casting since it harkens back to classic 40k, but the actual spells are the least creative most boring fucking spells I’ve ever seen. MWs we’re a mistake
>>
>>86826821
It's really disappointing that psychic abilities went from interesting abilities (Even if some were overtuned) and bonus shooting attacks to a way to splash stupid numbers of mortal wounds.
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If we went back to 7th/6th and removed templates in favor of the blast system and of course axed formations (but keeping the armies of renown) would it be better than 9th?
Or has the well already been phosphexed?
>>
>>86826821
>Not so much the method of casting since it harkens back to classic 40k
Not really, oldschool 40k used stuff like power points or psychic cards
>>
>>86827168
It'd be a better idea to move back to 4th/5th because those editions have the same systems without the ridiculous amount of bullshit bolted on during 6th/7th.
>>
>>86827168
7th had a lot of problems other than just formations, it was a huge rules clusterfuck. IN fact a lot of its problems are very similar to 9th, just way worse. The problem is that GW's trying to keep 40 years of bloated rules from editions when smaller model counts meant individual goofy abilities was fun, but they want everyone to buy giant armies with big centerpiece models, and they don't have any interns capable of bridging that gap.
>>
When i was a lad a Lasgun could not hurt a Rhino. Now it can. Simple ass
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>>86827168
6th and 7th are rotten at the core
5th isn't much better but it was more cohesive
4th would have been the perfect edition if the whole design team wasn't upended by old hands retiring/leaving and all the codexes being made by the C or E team.

RT, 2e, and 3e are the best handled editions (depending on what you're aiming for) and even then all of them have their quirks and niggles. "We" already play them, alongside 9th every now and then. It's important to mix it up and try things out.
>>
>>86827168
the new blast rule is probably one of the worst and most pointless shit gw ever made. it barely does anything and scales in such a bizarre way.
>>
>>86827233
>IN fact a lot of its problems are very similar to 9th, just way worse
How the hell? It was mostly USRs, which were simple to remember and everyone's were the same. If anything it became too bland because of this.
>>
>Blast: roll as many times to hit as there are models in the target unit, to a maximum of X
>Flamer: this weapon automatically scores a number of hits equal to the number of models in the target unit, to a maximum of X
There, I fixed it.
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>>86827906
There I fixed it.
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>>86827938
>argues for 10 minutes about how many termagants are under a grav template
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>>86828031
And now grogs argue about the big congaline of rules and whether this does that or whatever else. They just replaced template bitching with other forms of bitching.
>>
>>86828031
>>86828041
Have you tried not playing with 40k players?
>>
>>86828100
Fuck man I wish. My LGS is stuffed with hyper-meta players that want to treat 40k as a competitive tournament game and little else. Even the crusade league here is just people pitting meta lists against other meta lists.

Most I can do is wait and see if there's anyone to form a group with.
>>
>>86827386
Not only that, but lasguns can autowound it on a 6 to hit and nobody can fire out of those bigass rhino hatches. The entire AP and wounding system is borked and they'll never admit to it. Just look at the absolute state of bolters, shit is laughable now. Described as armor pricing gyrojets and everything in the game gets a full save against them, they wound orks on 5s and they still save on 6s wearing leather and scrap (or nothing at all), it's a joke.
>>86827736
The problem is USRs actually didn't go away, we just have an acre of "new" rules that all do the same things. Every book wastes ink reiterating that your troops have objective secured when that could be in the core book once, or some stratagem that gives you feel no pain in longhand, or hammer of wrath, or relentless. Hell, people still refer to these effects as their USR names in discussions, even the new ones like transhuman physiology.
>>86828117
This is why I dropped my local crusade. If they want to play tournaments they should do that, but we can get seven people for crusade and can't get four for a tournament and they can't put two and two together. Now I play Bolt Action, Stargrave, and Gaslands with people who feel the same way, shits great.
>>
>>86828160
I tried Bolt Action and really enjoyed it at first until more people started showing up for it. One of my opponents said that he's using the rules from this supplement book which gave all of his Soviet fanatcism and he gamed the rules so fucking hard that it was like playing 40k all over again.

I think the only choice I have is to find likeminded people. I enjoy playing competently but I hate the ultra competitive mindset, it's the death of joy.
>>
I find 9th boring and formulaic, the missions are more or less the same but different deployment, stuff is either it just kinda works or its super specific, nothing feels consequential, especially compared to aos. It feels very formulaic and predictable. And aoc sucks and the imperium as a whole sucks
>>
>>86819946
Opr is the fucking beta option. Half the fun of games is flavor. So taking the flavor out for an uninspired "WOAH TOTALLY NOT HECKING 40K BROS ITS SO DIFFERENT TRUST ME" is grating.
>>
>>86828193
That's the Stalingrad book, Fanatic is fine unless it's a free blanket rule, see Japan bamboo spearman spam.
Some people conflate the purpose of a game with the objective, and those people should stick to videogames. Fortunately I live in a college town so those types eventually graduate and become someone else's problem somewhere else. We've started telling them we meet on Thursdays and then play each other on a different day as a containment procedure, since we do it in person and not online they don't notice. If it's not on their phone it's basically not real, so we take advantage. They don't drop in any other days (as they play no other games, not even MTG) and buy all their stuff online, so the chance our ruse is discovered is very low. Since they'll fuck off in four years it won't matter if it is. They get what they want and so do we.
>>
>>86828389
I think it's fine but pulling together all kinds of rules combined with the most optimized list possible and the best weapons you can get makes for a boring slog of a game not that I'm trying to argue against you or anything. I think it's great that you've been able to alleviate the issue anon.
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>>86822962
>And their painting absolutely blows.
Adrian's armies being the vast majority of what's on stream is gross. He zenethals and then airbrush squirts a couple of colors and is then done. How can you put that on stream.
>picrel
>>
>>86828446
>I think it's fine but pulling together all kinds of rules combined with the most optimized list possible and the best weapons you can get makes for a boring slog of a game
We're in total agreement. Look no further than the 8th Castellan lists with the loyal 32 and triple smash captain torpedoes, or the absolute state of "competitive" EDH.
Best wishes on finding like-minded locals anon, hopefully you don't have to use my deceptive honeypot system.
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>>86828542
Man don't even remind me. Returning for 8th edition was the biggest case of whiplash ever. I took a break at the end of 5th only to come back to people running three baneblades plus loyal 32 in a regular game or entire armies of knights.

Thanks for the well wishes anon, I have a few friends that play the game but I have to find a way to get some narrative fun going.
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>>86828538
>mould lines
>no details
>no highlights
this is the funniest shit ever, where I can find more?
>>
I just play the OPR games now and I actually have fun playing
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>>86828348
Is there some rule that says you have to discard the entire setting to use a different ruleset?
Just because the rules sheet says Buzz Lightyears doesn't mean you can't keep calling them space marines. Everyone knows what every faction is supposed to be underneath their non-infringing titles
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>>86815761
>5th ed
>Me (Imperial guard) and best friend (Chaos) are playing a 2v2 against two competent eldar players
>He puts almost all of his points into a squad of chaos terminators, Abaddon and Typhus
>Turn one im desperatley holding the line with just platoons of guardsmen against those super OP transport shenanigans Eldar could do
>turn 2 best friend rolls for his deepstrike
>Mishap. They scatter off the table and are all declared dead.
>Best friend's almost entire 1k point army area dead. Its now up to me
That shit was way more interesting than any of the games ive played in 9th
>>
>>86816583
>Guard codex isnt even out yet and theyre already complaining
IVE WAITED YEARS TO FINALLY GET A 9TH EDITION CODEX. IM GOING TO USE BORN SOLDIERS AND THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP ME.
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>>86829313
Go for it anon, ride that wave and have a great time with your dudes. I'm glad that they're going to be usable in this wonky edition.
>>
>>86829320
You too anon, heres hoping 10th is better
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>>86829341
Here's hoping. I think they've done a lot of neat things but also some bad things. I hope that they can work everything out for a more fun game.
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>>86828031
I'm afraid I can't fix WAAC-fags, anon. But I don't think getting rid of templates helps either.
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>>86829390
>I'm afraid I can't fix WAAC-fags, anon
Try bullets.
>>
>>86815286
its rouge trader intro
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>>86830076
>this amazing product cures all mental illnes!
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>>86815267
Strategems.
And holy fucking christ can they get someone that isn't a raging nuclear level autist to write the rules?
>>
>>86828031
Never in my 25 years of templates and guess range weapons was it ever a fraction as bad as you assholes make it out to be. No, GW just decided you simpletons can't be trusted with anything more complicated than reading a D6, and the rest of us suffer just to have you in the audience..
>>
>>86831122
I remember the first time I had an opponent obsess over maximum coherency to mitigate my templates. I wanted to die.
>>
>>86831161
That part is true, it DID require more strategy in placing your hordes.
>>
>>86831174
Measuring 2" is not a strategy.
>>
>>86831272
Preventing scatter onto nearby units by clustering a few as bait is perfectly normal behavior to those of us more suited to playing wargames.
>>
>>86831174
Requiring strategy and thought, instead of just buying more things, is exactly what GW is trying to avoid.
>>
>>86831298
Sounds absolutely thrilling.
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>>86820032
Meanwhile, the end of 7th was
> how much free shit can by detachments gets me
> vehicles are trash its monstrous creatures or bust
> super friends deathstars (on some kind of bike) piling special rule on special rule
> original Ynnari 'I literally get extra shooting phases'
Yeah... fuck 5/6/7.
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>>86829040
No there's not, its just some people are literally mentally retarded and pussy whipped by BRAND
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>>86831541
Why lump 5th in with 6th/7th?
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>>86831423
Hitting other targets besides what you're aiming at, including your own units? Yeah anon, that's a bit more exciting than just hitting a d6 more models instead.
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>>86831423
Better than only taking mimimally sized units because it's a disadvantage to take anything more than that or just outright negating blast weapons through some army of reknown bullshit.
>>
>>86831554
>>86831564
It's not a dichotomy. You get that right?
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>>86831634
nta, but you can shut up about templates now.
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If 9e had AV and Templates I would consider playing it.
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>>86831717
No I can't.
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>>86831548
Yeah, I was wondering the same. For me the shit starts with 6th; 5th is clearly separate.
>>
>>86828031
I had a friend who would field units of 80 grots against another friend who played catachans with a bunch of demo charges.
He made no effort to spread them out, or argue how many got hit. He just trusted the scatter die to protect him.
Too good for this shitty game.
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>>86829292
>Warmaster of Chaos and Herald of Nurgle killed in freak teleporter accident, along with many of their greatest warriors
>Eldar mop up a small force of Imperial Guardsmen who were under the influence of these tyrants with minimal effort and casualties
>end times are kicked another ten millennia down the road as Chaos eats itself and the Imperium focuses on more relevant threats like Tyranids
Kino as fuck game, anon. Glad you had fun.
>>
>>86815267
Bring back the crassus and dominus bombard
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>>86824666
>Trannies and liberals, same as everywhere else.
Rent free
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>>86828031
There have always been clear and concise rules for resolving these disputes
The hits are on anyone wholly under the template and anyone that’s partially kinda there is hit on a 4+
If you don’t play with baby faggot retards who can’t have fun then templates will never be an issue.
>T. Played orks for many editions and never fought over templates
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>>86829313
We had hammer before this codex anon. And our troops cost less points and the sergeants got free wargear
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>>86829292
Yeah I'm sure it was very interesting for your opponent to be essentially tabled on turn 2
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>>86829040
He's not talking about just the backdrop, he's referring to flavourful rules that make armies actually feel different from eachother.
>>
>>86831161
What is legitimately even worse is playing HH and someone shooting a suport squad or myrmidon squad with grab guns and resolving 10+ small blast templates.

Legitimately awful gameplay and you don't even need to be doing anything even slightly unusual for it to happen.
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>>86836316
>If you don’t play with baby faggot retards who can’t have fun
First day?
>>
>>86817174
This argument is almost too retarded to believe.
>lol you can't remember hundreds upon hundreds of stratagems and their different names, costs, effects, phase timings, target keywords, arbitrary variations in unit size cost modifiers, restrictions, precise edge case wordings, and cannot quickly do the math in your head to decide whether it's better to use 2CP to re-roll all wounds of 1 or 1CP to get +1 attack each (or is it 2CP because the unit is 11+ models? or is it 15+ models that makes the cost go up?)
>versus
>one fucking universally applicable table in the core rules
Kill yourself.
>>
>>86816554
>do away entirely with the damage characteristic
No, that's the one thing that's bad about HH
>>
>>86815446
Oh dear
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>>86837118
quad launcher batteries having to roll 12 scatters. I don't mind templates but Forgeworld really is retarded about that shit.
>>
Its just kind of boring. Its age of sigmar with extra steps and less variety.
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>>86823054
>Ohhhh no he said Ultramarines were really cool.
I’m not that bothered about the guy but That’s a massive understatement and you fucking know it. He massively contributed to the kidification of 40k by making UM ‘the goodies’ and by stripping out all the ambiguity and depth in favour of regimented codex shit that led to the same tedious fun policing you see in historic games. Not to mention it made the surrounding and connected media so fucking full for a decade or more because everything was fucking blue marines.
>>
>>86827906
Perfect

>>86827938
>>86828031
>>86828041
>>86828100
>>86829390
>>86831122
>>86834491
>>86836316
You're all wrong. The problem with templates was never about arguments over how many models were in or out.

Flamer templates were a problem, because of the degree of abstraction required in a miniatures game. You can have them originate from the base, or a part of the model, and depending upon which you go with it may require models to be repositioned during Phases other than Shooting, or where a model couldn't be repositioned (fixed turrets or sponsons) you would need to work out where it should originate from. The other issue was that it encouraged units to manoeuvre into the optimal range for one weapon, making units move in strange ways that were not consistent with the fantasy.

Blast templates involved rolling a dice (2, actually) then trying to adjust the location of the template to the new position dictated by the dice, then rolling for models only partially under the template, which needlessly extends and complicates the use of explosive weapons. I'll readily concede that if we treat the models as being in that exact position at the time of the explosion then it serves the simulation better than a random number of hits; but I'll argue that a more detailed simulation, especially on a miniatures game with an already extremely high level of abstraction, doesn't necessarily improve the game. In fact, I would go so far as to say that bringing concerns about the spacing of units into a game with an extremely granular terrain simulation is arbitrarily ratcheting up the degree of simulation in one dimension in a way that is less realistic than having a more evenly distributed level of abstraction.

Cont...
>>
>>86845829
Both of these suffer from the problem of not being able to push templates through terrain, so they must be suspended over terrain, however tall it might be, and then we must determine on which level of the terrain the explosion takes place, which can be complicated by the geometric complexity of terrain, and often squashes the explosion vertically which I would contend actually compromises the simulation more than it enhances it.

Abstracting both of these to a dice roll, or a number of simultaneous dice rolls speeds things up and serves as a workaround to the logistical issues inherent in the use of templates without significantly compromising the simulation; we gain more than we lose by doing so.
>>
>>86845829
>without an extremely granular terrain simulation
Correction
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>>86827906
I vote for this as well.
>>
>>86845829
If you really think flamer templates are the subject of all these retards complaints then you yourself are also a retard
>>
>>86845829
I do agree that template weapons can extend rolls and make things a little complicated but I think we have the same sort of deal going on now. Now we have a big plethora of rules interacting with one another. With my ad mech against a friend's blood angels we have all kinds of time wasters involved in singular rolls including

>Oh I have to reroll these 1's to hit
>These were 6's which means this happens
>I can rerolls these 1's for wounds
>These 6's mean something else happens
>Are those damage 1? If so I get +1 to my armour save and also this ability from my command phase means you can only wound on 4's plus if the attack was ap -1 or -2 I switch it to 0 because of this special aura that stacks on top of the other aura they already have
>Also this doctrina means I get another +1 to my armour save

This sort of thing also applies to the fight phase where a bunch of rules interact with one another, it's a fair amount of bookkeeping.

I think we've both gained and lost things. I like modifying armour saves because it makes weapons feel more punchy but now there's far more going on than before. The difference is that instead of interacting with the table by using a blast template, interacting with models, or positioning models, we're instead modifying results and not much more than that.
>>
I am possibly a retard but even after I read the rulebook cover to cover I still didn't understand how to build an army as a new player.
>>
>>86815267
In order to speed up the game they increas the killing capacity of everything
This has been the root cause of every problem as far as I can see it. It's meant foot troops have had to increase their wounds stat, which meant damage increased, but now you get to reduce damage, but now you get to mortal wound them instead, but now I get to ignore that, but now....

It's just endless circles of creating rules that ignore rules. The upshot is that a game that was supposed to be streamlined ended up more bloated and needing more booking keeping than any edition previous.
>>
>>86845978
You pick the detachment of the army you want to play then fulfill it's requirements, usually 1-2 HQs and 2 troops. Each detachment costs command points (You start with 6 now I think?) unless it's the one your warlord is in - in that case it's free. You can fill add more units up to the detachment but there are some limits (like only having 3 heavy support max). Also you can't have more than three of the same unit unless it's a troop choice or a dedicated transport. Any further detachments cost command points to add to your roster.
>>
>>86846035
I swear to Christ that none of that is in the rulebook.
>>
>>86846073
Check pages 240-251, it's not really explained all that well. Also I think some detachments don't give you your command points unless they changed that in some errata. It's kind of a mess.
>>
>>86846087
Thanks. I've found that Horus Heresy was a million times easier to just get started with but I have wanted to learn how to play 40k.
>>
>>86846097
The earlier editions were a little more easygoing in that way, hope I could help anon.
>>
>>86845978
I have this problem too. Building an army is needlessly convoluted. As anon deftly highlights here;
>>86846035
>>
>>86845934
I covered both types of templates because they both have distinct disadvantages in addition to the overlap between them. I'm aware that most of their complaints revolve around WAACfags trying t game the rules to their advantage, but as explained above that doesn't really happen very often, and I also mentioned that wasn't the most common problem with templates. I don't think you've fully read and comprehended my post.
>>
It didn't end with humanity killing all the icky alien dudes and ascending desu
>>
They secretly made C.S. Goto chief writer
>>
>>86846125
>most of their complaints revolve around WAACfags trying t game the rules to their advantage,
See, here's the things, though. There's no set of rules anymore can male, anywhere, which isn't going to have this problem. All getting rid of templates did was shift the problem to WAACfags fucking the rules in different ways. You cannot solve a player problem with game rules, you can only solve player problems using other players.

It's a funny thing, but templates are all over the place in the historicals community (actual historical wargames, not bastardized GW games like Bolt Action). They get used particularly for canister rounds from artillery, but also get used for bombing attacks, and in naval games like General Quarters for torpedo attacks. They're essentially fine there, because the player problem of WAACfags really doesn't exist in that community. They can't afford to exist, because when they pop up, people refuse to play with them. A player solution to a player problem, which leaves perfectly cromulent rulesets alone.
>>
remember when all the gw drone and fags were sucking the new ceo's dick 24/7?
>MUH BASED ROUNTREE
what happened?
>>
Alright I guess I should just play 3e.
Where can I find the rules?
>>
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>>86846860
You don't. Now pay up, piggy.
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>>86846981
JAMES

TAKE MY CHILDREN AND FAMILY.
>>
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>>86847029
Done! How about a Battleforce Box!? Just $399 for $400 worth of plastic! Isn't that a fucking steal!?
>>
>>86815267
you got older
>tfw same whining and pining for the old good times since 2nd
>>
>>86847098
you have never played the old editions and you never will because you don't have any friends who are actually interested in playing with you
>>
>>86815267
A focus on cash grabbing consoomerism, instead of creating a finely balanced game and model lines with well thought out and consistant rules and lore. It happens to anything that starts to become popular nowadays though.
>>
>>86846860
Wise choice. Share thread has them in an archive.
>>
>>86818682
We are just warning you of what you have to look forward to and trying to save you the wasted time, effort and money we experienced trying to keep up with the Churn in the old days. When 40k is in it's 12th or 13th edition, you too will look at the piles of almost identical sets of outdated and unusable rulebooks, codexes and models you own and think "I have wasted my life", like many of us do today.
>>
>>86820032
The game today isnt really a game anymore. It's just a showpiece used to display GW products.
>>
>>86845829
I didnt like how ALL templates had the same chance of scattering every time you fired them, from Space Marines to Orks, so we used to do it that you rolled to hit to place it on target and rolled scatter dice only if you rolled a miss. It sped up the game marvelously and, as you could get elite crews for tanks in those days, gave you a reason to have more accurate gunners firing your odnance.
>>
>>86847426
I think you took away the BS of the unit from the scatter result which does help things a little bit but there was always the chance that something would fly way off target.
>>
>>86845978
Just use Battlescribe desu, it'll bark at you when you break the rules and tell you how to fix it.
>>
>>86827168
>that pic
at this point why even bother playing miniature wargames?

>>86831762
I want squadrons of guard tanquettes as troops, like those smol WW1 Renault tanks
>>
Objectives suck, killing is where all points should be awarded. Make Warhammer about war again not camping in regions of the map spreading out as thin as possible.
>>
>>86819689
Anon, you don't know what you're talking about and it pisses me off.

Ward wrote orcs and goblins for fantasy, purposely making them near unplayable, arguably one of the worst armies. Ward wrote Daemons for fantasy purposefully making them near unbeatable, arguably one of the most op armies ever made for fantasy warhams.

Ward for 40k writes codex space marines for 3rd. Basically a rip off of the 3rd ed ig codex... okay what ever. Ward writes the 5e space marines codex, it's basically a rip off of the 4e Dark angels codex. Ward writes codex blood angels magical winged flying Dread naughts and NOT SANGUINUS character hit the tables. Ward writes great knights and an entire army of "you get no save, your special character/monsterous creature just immediately dies" hit the table

Every book he 'writes' has the most atrocious fluff to accompany it. Every marine wants to be an ultra marine, necrons and blood angels were total bros for a minute, grey knights murder raped a bunch of soritas for reasons...
>>
>>86823018
And then IG got ap -4 on karsakins.
>>
>>86831174
It was also unfair to players of horde armies. I remember a tournament with an orc player and he basically had to choose between eating a time warning or eating a bunch of frag missiles. Under the circumstances I prefer the 9th ed method.

9e does have issues though for sure, stratagem bloat for instance. I like the concept - stops the need to hose for certain warmer for instance - but it's just too bloated currently.
>>
>>86847856
if the map is in quarters and you can contest those quarters doesn't it give you incentive you kill the other day and take his table quarters?
I don't know how new objectives work, but that's how the old days were
>>
>>86848745
NTA but you are a retard and almost everything you just said is wrong.

>Ward for 40k writes codex space marines for 3rd
He wasn't even working for GW yet, that book was written by Chambers, JJ and Gav.
>Basically a rip off of the 3rd ed ig codex
Interesting how it ripped off a book that was released a year later.

>Ward writes the 5e space marines codex, it's basically a rip off of the 4e Dark angels codex
Wow a Space Marine book was similar to a Space Marine book??? Holy shit stop the presses. Also, this isn't even accurate.

>Ward writes codex blood angels magical winged flying Dread naughts and NOT SANGUINUS character hit the tables.
Writers don't come up with the models. Sanguinor has nothing to do with Matt Ward. Flying dreadnoughts has been a thing since fucking Rogue Trader.

>Ward writes great knights and an entire army of "you get no save, your special character/monsterous creature just immediately dies" hit the table
Grey Knights didn't do shit like that, you're thinking of Jaws of the World Wolf which was a 5th ed Space Wolf power and Matt Ward didn't write the Wolves codex, that was Phil Kelly.

>Every book he 'writes' has the most atrocious fluff to accompany it. Every marine wants to be an ultra marine
All he did was restate stuff that had been stated since 2nd edition, like 10 years before he even worked for GW, which has always said Ultramarines are canonically and explicitly considered the best and most successful chapter and most other chapters follow the Codex because of their example.

>necrons and blood angels were total bros for a minute
Enemies allying against a greater threat is a staple of 40k lore and has happened with almost every combination of forces on at least one occasion - the writers do this intentionally to justify you playing casual team games with your mates.

>grey knights murder raped a bunch of soritas for reasons...
They didn't rape anyone you fucking retard.

You sound like you've never read anything but 1d4chan.
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>>86849684
>NTA but you are a retard and almost everything you just said is wrong.

Some of it is based on the source i referenced, but most of it is not.

>Wow a Space Marine book was similar to a Space Marine book??? Holy shit stop the presses.

You're definitely right that Marines are the goyslop army for nigger brained consumer cattle, now written so that a marine player can buy anything associated with space marines, but they used to have rules, units, and limitations that defined how they played on the table top which demanded a short supplemental codex in addition to the main codex. They were different enough to warrant extra rules.

>Writers don't come up with the models.

They come up with rules for said models, a box naught having psychic powers, being able to manifest magic wings to take flight is all Matt ward.

>Grey Knights didn't do shit like that
Every single grey knight is equipped with a force weapon. Force weapons ignore armor saves, force weapons cause instant death upon a failed save.

>All he did was restate stuff that had been stated since 2nd edition
Cope

>Enemies allying against a greater threat is a staple of 40k lore
Remember when tau teamed up with necrons to fight tyranids? Remember how the minute the tyranids were defeated the necrons immediately started murdering tau? That's 40k, Crons and Blood Angels respecting each other and going their separate ways is not 40k.

>They didn't rape anyone you fucking retard
Go on, explain what the Grey knights did.
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>>86850995
You're so fucking stupid and new it hurts.

Other Marine codexes with their own unique units still existed in 5th, you literally referenced the BA one in your own post.

Librarian dreadnoughts were not an invention of Matt Ward and a psychic power so they could move like jump infantry is nothing special given that in earlier editions you could literally take jump pack dreadnoughts.

Grey Knights existed since 1st edition and always had Nemesis Force Weapons and there was plenty of invulnerable saves and immunity to instant death in 5th ed.

>cope
So basically you have no argument and know nothing about the history of the game.

>Crons and Blood Angels respecting each other and going their separate ways is not 40k
You literally don't know shit about what is and isn't 40k, newfag. You think Matt Ward invented libby dreads and GK in 5th. You are a clown and your opinions are a joke.

>explain what they did
Kill them and use their holy blood to paint protective wards, which is extremely 40k. Martyrdom and brutal sacrifice is a core theme.

I also like how you didn't address half the points I made in my last post because you had no arguments at all, not even bad ones.
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>>86851091
>Other Marine codexes with their own unique units still existed in 5th, you literally referenced the BA one in your own post.

How is 4e DA different from 5e vanilla, enlighten me anon.

>magic wings are the same as jet turbines
Cope to the fucking max

>you think Matt Ward invented libby dreads and GK in 5th
Matt wards Codex grey knights and Codex Daemon Hunters arent the same concepts.

>Kill them and use their holy blood to paint protective wards, which is extremely 40k.
they never reference this ever again in any future publications, effectively ret conning it. Much like the retard take that Blood Angels wish they could be ultra marines, its a matt ward brain child that doesnt make any fucking sense and so its swept under the rug.
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>>86815267
When they introduced Primaris marines aeons ago. I'd let Krork go, but Primaris is the gayest idea. I'd prefer a total Daemon-Spess Mahreen hybrid.
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>>86825759
A sensible post. 9th ed whiners should bring up old threads in the archive from 6-12 years ago. It's the same exact shit.
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>>86815267
It's a perpetual beta make just to sell the next new model range. The perfect example for the hype sublimation is how they started to talk about new squats rules and how it ended.
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>>86825759
>the game is defined by what the WAAC-fags do
I don't understand why this is what people think.
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>>86853882
they're WAACfags
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>>86853904
Makes sense.
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>>86815378
>A new 'check my prideflag themed marine' on reddit EVERY FUCKING WEEK.

It's reddit, what do you expect
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>>86815267
Having any game mode other than crusade. Games Workshop has spent the last 3 decades proving they aren't interested in writing a balanced ruleset. Validating tournament play by giving it official coverage was a mistake.
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>>86851413
>How is 4e DA different from 5e vanilla, enlighten me anon.
NTA, mostly characters and terminators. For instance Belial who allowed you to take terminators as troops. They might also have been the only ones with apothecarys for their terminator command squad. Other than that they were almost identical.
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>>86825759
And now we've got a game where I can spam abilities that wipe out your squads without having to roll to wound whatsoever, and you will likely not be able to save it either.

>pre-8th
As opposed to 8th where people just brought three riptides surrounded by drones. Or people that spam custodes jetbikes. Or weaver spam.
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>>86815267
For me what killed it was changing points and shit nearly every other week, to the point you buy a codex and that weekend it';s obsolete as some new rules update changes it all up again.
Then there's the superfluous jank added in extra little pre and post game rules to checklist through and the whole thing of changing to needing some Core Troop units to score made some armies really suffer balance-wise.
Though it was the fortnightly changing of my army points and therefore needing to sort out new models is what really fucked my gears the hardest.
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>>86815267
rules bloat
>>86815289
literally the opposite
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>>86847720
you could proxy sentinels with tankettes i guess.
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>>86846005
>It's just endless circles of creating rules that ignore rules.
This. As soon as you get into rules that ignore rules you've gone too far. There should be Core Rules and Special Rules that are exceptions to the Core Rules, but to which there are no exceptions.
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>>86845540
My buddy sold me use his bonedudes for pocketlint since they suck shit. Having the worst army in the minmax nightmare of AoS is still better than playing my Orks in 40k.
Fucking despise 40k since 7th
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>>86847426
not all templates scattered, just the ones that were marked "scatter", which was less than a fifth of them
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>>86828160
>Bolt Action
I want more Italy options, they had a glut of antique garbage that looked really cool.
It is my wargaming sub-hobby to make Italy win every conflict, up to and including the American Civil War.
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>>86848745
Oh man i forgot how retarded that flying dreadnought shit was.

Also Phil kelly was a raging faggot for making space wolves the most OP bullshit, jaws of the world wolf was some gay ass nigger shit.
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>>86858989
Reminder than Ethiopia book is still fan-module tier despite being made by the bolt action staff... and that makes me sad. Really wish for some real official support for Italy vs Ethiopia (and UK).
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>>86815329
My number one favorite onions-take that I hear over and over from the pundits is "The new codex has such good internal balance!"
Yeah, dipshit, glad that it all looks equally overtuned.
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>>86851091
>>86851413
You're gonna hate to hear me say this but you two boys should supply some sources and evidence because I do not know how you both got two completely different views out of Ward's work. I don't even know who is right and who is wrong because you are both so steadfastly firm in beliefs.

t. newfagggggg
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>>86815267
40k went to shit when they simplified the rules so that vehicles were just units with a bunch of wounds, rather than the older rule with armor values and critical hit tables.
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>>86815267
They balance like retards and yet still suck competitive cock
> There's no flat save because our ap system is retarded
Hand out invuls and stupid fucking armor of contempt
> Theres to much invul and ap 1 is useless
Make a gun that ignores invuls and throw out ap 2 everywhere
> Daemons are an army with nothing but invuls so they will have no saves
Daemons get an entirely different invul that's immune to the gun and ap
>>
Make blast actuslly good again
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>>86821111
It's result of companies running out of things to commodify. As the world gets smaller, money is concentrated into monopolies. Groups have to find new sources of revenue in order to maintain growth. Either they've cornered the market themselves or they've been pushed aside by bigger fish. Magic can no longer rely on Standard and Limited as its main cash cows. So, support expanded to other formats, like Modern and EDH. But they got as many players as these formats could support, so new gimmicks are made to get sell packs (planeswalkers, Kaladesh inventions). Or outright power creep of older cards. Then they have to move to other narrow means of increasing growth. Things like FTV, secret lair, universes beyond, etc. are in this category. Eventually, these will stop growing Magic. WotC/Hasbro will look for other ways to monetize the game, like making cards with limited use, allowing more non-MtG IPs into the game, removing the reserve list, etc. When those cease to grow Magic, even if every person on the planet plays, the product will collapse.

This is the source of boom/bust cycles and can be seen in other sectors as well. YouTube used to play only a few ads. Now, YouTubers themselves have become commodities as they generate revenue by developing parasocial relationships with their audience. Already, other platforms monetize these relationships, such as Twitch, Patreon, or OnlyFans. The difference between a video streaming service and a boardgame, however, is there's more room within the streaming service market to not create a bubble (thus a bust).

Anons who rant about wokeness or whatever the fuck are flat-out wrong. These companies just see the number of potential minority customers exceeds the number of anti-woke man children. If the number of man children exceeds minority customers, they will cater to the man children and end up having the same problems. Except instead of Larry Porter MtG cards, you'd get My Little Pony nazi furry hentai cards.
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>>86863957
The insane obsession with unending growth at all costs is going to be the end of us all.
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>>86815267
What went wrong? 40k has been an awful game system since at least 20 years ago, I don't know what you are talking about. It's not like it's new with the 9th edition.
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>>86863957
>Anons who rant about wokeness or whatever the fuck are flat-out wrong. These companies just see the number of potential minority customers exceeds the number of anti-woke man children. If the number of man children exceeds minority customers, they will cater to the man children and end up having the same problems. Except instead of Larry Porter MtG cards, you'd get My Little Pony nazi furry hentai cards.
Except it doesn't work like this and never did.
Woke scum doesn't pay, unless it liked the setting the way it was before anyway - intolerant gloomblack.
In addition, wokefying any setting poisons it, inevitably reducing it's quality for a net drain.

They don't crossover their shit or bring old world back for nothing.
>>
>>86863957
Its based on ESG investment which all major hedge funds and financial institutions are now pushing.
>>
>>86815334
yeah half my group loves em
every new rule, every new unit has them excitedly going "aww bro I can do a million strength ten hits a turn for only 300 points bro I'm so fucking keen"
I think it's a side effect of playing like 1-6 times a year because the people I know who get games in on the reg are the ones who hate it
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>>86828615
your army case
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>>86823304
HH is based
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>>86834491
based
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>>86815320
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>>86862692

You just know that Grey Knights will get an
> akshyually this gun ignores demonic saves and our modifiers affect malefic attacks :)
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>>86864503
Are Dark Eldar "woke"? They have women and androgynous looks, that's why I collect them for 8 years now. Best faction btw.
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>>86864805
>absolute D-grade Degenerates
>Chaos-tier evil
Not woke.
>>
9th edition went so high on the lethality spectrum that the game is now decided by Turn2. Entire units get fucking swept off the board in one shooting or charge phase, and nobody has staying power without some bullshit cheese like transhuman or some kind of invuln or FNP shenanigans. Saves are worthless and MW's are fucking everywhere.
It's not fun to deploy entire armies and have half of the table removed on turn one.
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>>86865563
Don't forget chaining together bonuses to your armour save through all kinds of insane rules or some other survivability bullshit gained through armies of reknown.
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>>86864448
Correct
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>>86849521
I don't want to hear it, the small blast template is 3" across. Doing 1" coherency will protect all your other models from a direct hit, especially if we're in a modern context with 32mm's. You don't need to sweat and shit and cry trying to get everything perfectly 2" as the clock ticks down, just leave a fucking gap.
Alternatively, clustering them is fine. The advantage is you're more likely the frag entirely whiffs on scatter.
Modern frags hit 1d6 models: you're telling me the small blast template was *ever* hitting 6 models? Horse shit. And who even fucking cares when these new guns shit more dice than Orks in CC ever did, anyway?
The only good argument for the modern approach is that it speeds up the game. The rest is fantasy, including this horde anxiety people put on themselves.
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>>86865781
Incorrect. Most will survive the collapse.
It will simply be the extreme discomfort of us all, then our kid's kid's will have it good before they make the same mistakes.
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>>86864755
Left is not the original, that's the shitty BL secondary one.

THIS is the original.
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>>86815267
I will go against the grain and say it actually went pretty damn right. The books by and large reflect the lore well, most armies have interesting mechanics and more than one valid build, GW is actually reacting to balance issues and keeping the game fresh, Armies of Renown are a far better implementation of the concept than Formations and Specialist Detachments were. There are definitely issues around power creep and rules bloat, and the game desperately needs for codices to be released in batches at least as well as reinstating USRs, but on the whole it's unironically the best edition in over a decade.
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>>86815334
Yeah, they're great. I do think some are overly bookkeepy and many could have used a second pass in order to make them more unique or well-integrated with the datasheets (Custodes ka'tahs, Necron Protocols, Daemon Warp Storms and Ork WAAAGH all spring to mind), but on the whole they add a lot of character and uniqueness to the armies.
>>
>>86815521
I would be interesting in seeing what the VP disparity averages out to in yournament top 4s. When you see a 100-25 win you know it was all ogre at listbuilding, but a 76-75 was obviously won by skill.
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>>86866889
So you're saying anon's macro needs an update with all three versions
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>>86815789
It's a side effect of them still selling rules where every other notable wargame and skirmish game gives them out for free and just sells models and lore. But GW can get away with it because they're the biggest name on the market by an enormous margin, so why wouldn't they?
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>>86863901
It feels like a solution in search of a problem. With all the nixing of large unit sizes, there just doesn't seem to be much of a use case -- the biggest potential problem of large units, that of taking one enormous deathstar and buffing it into an uninteractable-with monstrosity, is most often seen with 8-10 blocks of elite infantry, who don't especially mind Blast.
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>>86865563
Maybe think about your deployment a little bit bud. Everyone has staying power so longas you take advantage of terrain.
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>>86860083
The sad fact is that the weaker a codex is, the more optimization and sharpening is needed to keep up. Variety is a privilege of the strong. With less popular or competitive-minded games you can get a lot of leeway, but current 40k has a lot of people poring over every word of a new codex to find the most optimal strategies and builds. Books like Tyranids or Tau or CSM can get away with experimenting and trying out wackier shit, but the weaker books coverge on a monobuild because everything else just isn't up to snuff.
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>>86862692
The perpetual one-upmanship is the most annoying thing about this edition for sure. It barely took any time after wound caps were introduced for a bunch of abilities that bypass them to spring up, and half the Daemons codex appears to be written around the though of "shit, this just doesn't work in a world with Railguns in it".

>>86864766
There's one of those Legends inquisitors with a rule that says "daemons don't get to make any kind of saves vs this weapon's attacks", but that seems like an unhappy coincidence.
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>>86865563
It kinda depends on the armies. Chaos Knights vs Bile CSM or most Daemons, Orks or Tyranids lists won't frequently result in early tablings. AdMech vs Tau or IG, though? Better hope you get turn 1 and/or have great terrain. Really, terrain rules need to be a lot stronger defensively, shit like forests or non-LOS blocking hills or rubble might as well not exist.
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>>86867158
That's what I'm saying. "Good internal balance" is just weasel words for "everything is busted."
You don't hear these people saying it when the whole codex is weak, even if it's all equally weak.
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>>86815698
This. Yugioh gotcha shit is crap. Active/activatable unit abilities was fine.
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>>86815316
Since before the Big Bang
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>>86868455
If every army is busted, no one is.
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>>86868455
>That's what I'm saying. "Good internal balance" is just weasel words for "everything is busted."
According to who? It means the choices in the codex are all roughly equivalent and says nothing about how good that codex is against anything else.
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>>86823401
>Each faction has ... stratagems
Into the trash this goes.



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