What's your favorite armor system for tabletop gaming?I've never been a big fan of D&D styled baseline armor, since I like the paradigms of big armor bros getting hit alot but soaking it up while ninja-ey bros are flipping out and dodging stuff instead, and it generally doesn't model it well (And static DR slingshots very quickly from "Uber powerful" to "basically useless")
>>85516504cringe youtubezoomer manchild picture.even references the worst channels on the topic. the most trendfollower ones too.But onto your question. I always liked the idea of an active armor system. where you have a pool of resources you can actively spend to do things. like soak/negate damage, increase your innitiative (since you dont have to foxus so much on active defence), or increase your saving throws. I think making it something you actively spend makes you more consious of armor as a proactive aspect of combat.
>>85516504>Chad>watches Skall and ShadHorseshit. Anyone who actually watches that shit doesn't know anything.
>>85516641>>85516540I just googled "Armor chad" and saved the first image that looked decent. I have literally no clue what the fuck channel you guys are talking about.I just wanted an image of a dude in full armor to represent a thread on armor.
>>85516504I like the Riddle of Steel.Armor is the least layer of defense, along with Toughness.Everybody basically has 5 hps, and after the first 2 or 3 things death spiral pretty fast.But you can use active defenses to avoid or minimize the coming hits.
>>85516662Then do your goddamn research next time.
>>85516662maybe read your captioned image and recognize cringe before posting it next time.
>>85516504>using armor>not trading all your armor and taking 100% more damage for doubling your speed>not trading all of your health but one for additional damage>not trading all of your ability to avoid hits for the chance to hit firstYou cowards disgust me, and will never go fast.
>>85516504>>85516662>The virgin pseudointellectual>Pretends he's actually read anything medieval when all he's watched is Shadiversity>Gets wrecked at HEMA tournaments thanks to his morbid obesity >Deeply ashamed of his chuuni phase so he compensates with a feigned understanding of the middle ages>Gets kicked out of conventions for sperging out at cosplayers for being historically inaccurate>Thinks that being smarter than 14 year olds who make mary sue OCs online makes him a genius>Has never read a history book nor anything else for that matter since high school>Half Filipino, "his ancestors" my ass
>>85516711>>85516735That's literally one part of the image, and the rest is calling out anime protagonists for not wearing armor and using impractical weapons.I have no shame here. As I said before, I have no idea who the fuck skallagrim is, but the rest of it, shitting on impractical gear, is something I'm not ashamed of.
>>85516770What I find most pathetic is the little psuedo-intellectual nerd fuckboys who think they're smart and totally perceptive for pointing out design flaws in stupid gaudy armour. Like you want to make it clear to all your peers "I'm the smart one. I am the intellectual one. I understand combat and value logic above all" and you go on nitpicking this stupid shit that is made purely for the fuck of it. The overwhelming irony of it all is that you're the biggest motherfucking retard alive for actually believing you're the only one who can perceive the strategic faults of these designs and thinking other people aren't as perceptive as you. Here's a reality check you fucking cock wrangler. Everyone is aware of these things. They don't spend hours whining about it on image boards and forums and fucking youtube comment sections. Not because they're stupid, uneducated or unperceptive. It's because it's insignificant shit, and they aren't insecure enough to go whine about trivial realism bullshit in cheap, flashy entertainment. You're like the fuckwit that whines about people not knowing how bad fast food is for them because they continue to eat it. They know it's bad. They don't give a shit. You whiny little faggot.
>>85516770Might have been poinient 4 years ago bucko. but you are kicking a dead horse in 2022, you recognize this correct? you hardly see ninjafags anymore. stop pretending like its 2012.
>>85516828Seriously, this is totally unrelated to the topic at hand: Which is: WHAT. ARMOR. SYSTEM. DO. YOU. THINK. IS. BEST.
>>85516892I already said what I liked in my first post. But OP got defensive instead of adressing the topic at hand. I simply continued what he decided to focus on.
>>85516504>"best" in subject>"what's your favorite" in the postI fucking hate this. You're fucking retarded. Kill yourself with a knife to the gut.
>>85517004OP is indeed retarded, but what you choose to focus on in terms of his grammar is also retarded. you still understand his meaning.
>>85516641Text obviously belongs to the left picture
>>85516504Idk but I like JRPGs for this reason and I am really autistic about dodge chance, I always sperg out and maximize dodge chance in every game that has it, even if it isn't viable. D&D doesn't really feel like that.
>>85517028It's not a matter of grammar, it's about what words mean.
>>85516504This picture looks like shit, your post reads like shit, and you smell like shit.
>>85517424no its about what words are intended to mean in context. it can be ascertained pretty easily that op wanted systems that people find personally enjoyable and/or work the best. an armor system that is exceptial in some way, weather in opinion or in a more practical terms.
>>85516504Song of Swords is the best example I can think of, but it's literally just Riddle of Steel's system.
>>85516504D&Ds AC isn’t a hit or miss representation. It’s meant to model how easy or challenging it is to land a decisive blow which actually deals significant damage. A PC with high AC may get “hit” dozens of times during a fight, but only one or two blows actually land with enough accuracy or force to actually hurt them and reduce HP (which itself is only representative of not just health, but also luck, stamina etc, things that wear out in a fight). Likewise a lesser armoured PC with low AC is easier to land a significant blow against, since attacks which only skim or are partially deflected (in a narrative sense) will still transfer enough energy to hurt.Failing on your Attack Roll isn’t necessarily a miss, you can really fluff it how you want, all that matters is that you didn’t hurt the thing you attacked, whether that was due to you missing, them dodging, their armour or scales being too thick to penetrate, them artfully parrying your attack, or whatever.
>>85517699I always did apreciate DnD's AC as an elegant system to a potentially (and often) tumultuous process of damage calculation. I dont play it much anymore, but im not some edgy who cant appreciate the targeted simplicity of rolling all factors that would effect the likelihood of inflicting significant damage all into one role. covering things from evasiveness, to cover, to armor, to defensiveness.
>>85517699Fluffing something meaningless is deeply unsatisfying.
>>85517699>>85517746>this [insert game mechanic name] system is perfect because it's a vague blob of nothingness that can I reflavor as anything!Wow pack your things we solved TTRPGs.
>>85517699Pathfinder and 3.5 at higher levels you either completely ignore AC or pump it as high as you can.
>>85517797And both of those are shit games that nobody with taste should play anyway, so who cares?
>>85517781Your mileage may vary I suppose. I’ve come full circle from hating AC, to playing nitty-gritty nickel and dime DR and Dodge systems, to writing my own fixes, to just embracing the simplicity of AC.
>>85517784Didn’t claim it to be perfect, just that it is often misunderstood and more elegant than it’s given credit for.
>>85517806I don't know. Could it be because those games and their derivatives represent more than 80% of the players?
>>85517797I’ve never played any of the Pathfinder games so I’ll have to take your word for it.
>>85517820>>85517827You sound like you suffer from Stockholm syndrome. Or you couldn't figure out better fixes which is impressive in itself.
>>85517784I never said this. I said I appreciated it. I can appreciate something without saying its the pinnacle of everything. do you enjoy shoving your words into other peoples mouths?I can also apreciate dr, or degree based damage systems.I am just saying after playing something like savage worlds, you can apreciate some things in retrospect.
>>85517841I guess I just don’t perceive it to be broken. It simply is, and it suits what it’s trying to do just fine. I’m okay with that. If I don’t like it for some reason I can play another game with different rules.
>>85517820The "simplicity" of AC comes at the cost of basic combat being complete dogshit that is unfit for service without other parts of the game covering its ass. It only ever works if the combat is extremely lethal, ala AD&D, or if the basic unit of combat isn't "I do damage" but is instead "I do damage and also inflict status effects at the same time" ala 4E. Anything inbetween is complete garbage.
>>85517844>>85517849Poor puppy, kicked one too many times.
>>85516504I like GURPS’s variant “Armor as Dice” system. By default, you roll damage (all d6), total them, and subtract DR; it’s functional but not worth writing home about. AaD converts static DR into dice, but instead of rolling them (which would make this stupidly swingy) you subtract dice directly. For example, in the default rules, a 5d rifle shot vs a DR 14 assault vest sans plates can have anywhere from 0 to 16 damage penetrate; with AaD, it’s always going to be 1 to 6 (barring criticals, grazes, targeting chinks, etc.).The result is that DR matters a lot even if you only have a little, combat is less swingy, players are disincentivized to attack mindlessly hoping for a good damage roll, and everyone can easily tell at a glance if an attack can reasonably penetrate a defense.
>>85517862Well, again, your mileage may vary. I’m okay with those parameters you’ve set out. I can always play another game which does it differently if I don’t like it anymore.
>>85517881Yet here you are in a bot thread I intentionally provoked by making a different thread that triggered a response.
>>85517806They're prime examples of why the AC hit/miss mechanic is shit. Its completely binary.If you're not going full bore defense, then slapping on that full plate is completely worthless, you're going to be just as hittable as the dude with nothing on with nothing to gain.
>>85517929That’s not strictly true, though.First there’s nothing inherently wrong with a binary outcome if that is what you’re seeking to model e.g. you (a) suffer damage or, (b) you don’t.Secondly, there is a reason to wear armour with higher AC: it’s less likely you’ll suffer damage given it makes the attack roll against you less likely to succeed.
>>85517929why do you have to think is such a 0 or 100 way. something is shit or it isnt. maybe things can have their advantages and disadvantages.
>>85517889"Bot thread"?Do you seriously think this thread was made by a bot?
>>85518029>Secondly, there is a reason to wear armour with higher AC: it’s less likely you’ll suffer damage given it makes the attack roll against you less likely to succeed.That's true at low levels. Once you get to 10th level or so, with bonuses to hit and BAB, you might as well be wearing nothing, because in order to be able to hit your AC 40ish to 50ish tank all the enemies are going to be having insane to hit, meaning your guy that didn't invest balls to the wall with AC and only has about a 25ish or so will only really be missed on a 2 or 3 or so. Meaning your armor is basically worthless.ON THE OTHER HAND, magical defenses with static defenses (like mirror image and other magical buffs) stay strong the ENTIRE game with no getting around it, so if you're not buffing AC all in you just ignore it and rely on low investment/cost defensive spells.Now, this was meant to be mitigated in 3rd by having Full attacks go in a 20/15/10/5 manner, so that AC would properly give slight benefits for small investments, as while the FIRST hit would hit, the next few would miss. Unfortunately, nobody stayed still in combat, and monsters/animals full attacked no matter what with things like pounce/ect, so the system fell completely apart.5th tried to rectify this by drastically gutting BAB and number buffing, but failed to make a meaningful impact, AND it got rid of 3.5/pathfinder's full attack reduction on full attacking, so all your attacks are at full BAB anyways.Its a hot mess, and it doesn't give any meaningful benefit in practice, leading to, as I said, All in or nothing.
It'd be cumbersome to translate to a tabletop game, but Armello does combat and armor wonderfully.Combat functions in an opposed dice system, where a D6 has 5 options: Explode (Hits and then reroll), 2 "Swords" (Hit), 1 shield, miss and critical miss (That only really matters in a couple of situations, its mostly just "miss").Additionally, gear can give you swords (Automatic "hits" before you even roll dice) or Shields (Automatic defenses before rolling).This adds in a nice caveat that swords are ALWAYS useful, since you can always hit your enemy. on the other hand, extra shields are more or less dead weight, as when you roll well enough to negate all the attacks you can't go lower than 0--- At the same time, its MUCH harder to roll a shield than a sword (3 swords chance to ONE shield chance), so you want to stock up on lots of shields anyways.Unfortunately, while good for a simple board and card game, this would be cumbersome for a tabletop.
>>85518123>and monsters/animals full attacked no matter what with things like pounce/ectAnd also attacked with a different mechanic to humanoids. Full attack bonus for your primary natural weapon, -5 for all other natural weapons. Pathfinder made it even worse.
>>85518123I think we’re talking about very different games if you’ve got PCs with AC40-50. Generally I’ve found (ascending) AC caps out around 25 unless the GM is just handing out +20 magical armour.
>>85518164ac stuff goes much higher in the edition i think hes talking about.
>>855181643.0/pathfinder:+5 ring of deflection, +5 enhancement to your armor, +5 bonus to shield, Tower shield (4), Full plate (9), +2 bonus from dex (Which can go much higher in pathfinder), +5 natural armor bonus, Plus the base 10This brings us to 45.combat expertise to bring us to 50.Now add in feats such as Dodge, armor mastery, shield mastery, ect. and you'll quickly soar over 45 (Even before going into things like size bonues to AC and the like) or even 50.Admittedly, these stacking magical bonuses are going to be near level 20. But they'll still start kicking into gear around level 10 when the party begins to collect magical gear.5th edition tried to fix this by MASSIVELY throttling all those bonuses away and limiting magical items, which has had a noticeable effect on mitigating it, but it still slams into problems at higher levels due to magic creep and all the shenanigans (like shapeshifting) that it brings.
>>85518198Must do. My experiences lay mostly with B/X and its derivatives.I’m not au fait with Pathfinder and 3.5 etc. I could see how AC gets stupid once your numbers get really really big, but I don’t think that’s necessarily a knock on AC as I feel it wasn’t designed to do that.
>>85518212Fair enough. I know next to nothing about PF so I’ll take your word for it. For what it’s worth I don’t feel AC was designed with those numbers in mind so I can see why you’d find it lacking or frustrating.
>>85518212I should note, the bonus to armor and natural armor will benefit the non-ac person too.But the Tower shield (9 total with magical enhancement) plus combat expertise will lead to a 14 difference out of the box, which will quickly increase to 20 when feats start being added in.Which leads to the situation of, in order for an enemy to be able to hit a tank on anything but a 20, he'll have to never miss your non-tanks on anything but a 1 unless they invest heavily into defense as well.Either way, its 3 and I'm heading to sleep.
>>85518224alright. Yeah, Its most noticeable in those games, like I said, 5th does mitigate it by trying to gut number stacking and focusing on Advantage/disadvantage.
>>85518241Adv/Dis wasn’t a terrible solution to the problem, but I feel it was a solution to a problem that they themselves created. The gutting of magic items was really felt early on in 5e release cycle. Felt like you were just adventuring for Exp to go on more adventures for more Exp, like some kind of race to Lvl20.
>>85516504The Dark Eye and WFRPG got it right.All armor does irl is soak damage that would've hurt the wearer and so any system that gives armors a soak value instead of decreasing the chance to get hit does it right.The Dark Eye even gives warhammers (and a few other weapons) the option to use the spikey end to ignore some of the damage soak on some armors, just like both armor and warhammers interact with each other.>>85516540>>85516641>>85516711>>85516735>>85516762>>85516808holy cope
>>85516504>2022>Virgin vs. Chad memery>Chad side is actually the 200% Virgin on high dose of copiumPlot armor, like in Hollow Earth Expedition. Mooks can daze you, dangerous opponents can harm you, big danger will kill you. The trick is to know when to fold
>>85519068>The Dark Eye and WFRPG got it right.>All armor does irl is soak damage that would've hurt the wearer and so any system that gives armors a soak value instead of decreasing the chance to get hit does it right.Is it possible to be such a fucking moron to assume that DnD "armor decreases chance of being hit" is some sort of dominant mechanics and the industrial standard of "armor decreases damage" is special to just two systems, both of which infamous for their very poorly thought out armor systems, no less.It's like you've spend your life eating shit that you consider eating vomit a pleasant change of pace, rather than realising both are inedible and disgusting.
>>85517632What "is the best" and what an individual likes the most almost always aren't the same thing; that's why we have the word "favorite" in our language.Learn how to type, learn what words mean, and learn how to read. Don't respond to me if you still don't understand.
>>85517699It's still a shitty stagnation of status quo, regardless of how you fluff it, and it's still a wasted turn and wasted time, no matter how you fluff it.Look at things the way they are, instead of coping.
>>85516540>>85516641The virgin vs Chad meme is meant to be stupid. You aren't supposed to agree with Chad. If you did you'd strip naked and piss all over yourself in public toilets.
>>85516762Now describe Chad
>>85516828Stop letting pictures hurt you
>>85520854You don't understand the meme. Virgin is supposed to be sane, relatable, pathetic, lukewarm and milquetoast. Chad goes beyond human limits and impresses with his exaggerated acts. Skall and Shad are pathetic trending youtubers.
>>85517699>HP (which itself is only representative of not just health, but also luck, stamina etc, things that wear out in a fight)That always felt like a cop out to me. Like you have to shoot somebody in the face 5 times to get through their luck and kill them with the 6th shot. Or if somebody falls from a 10 storey building and they're fine, but there's luck everywhere
>>85516504Honestly, armor class works pretty well with edged weapons, where it either does nothing, or your get a weak or unarmored point and it does something.
>>85520993It's a total cop out. How can it be luck points if Lady Luck is famously unreliable? Yes today your 12d12 hp are 144 luck points and you can tank falling boulders with your chin. Next day it should be 12 luck points because Luck is fickle.
>>85516504cosmetic/fiction onlymaybe heavy/medium/light if your system is detailed enough and you want a mechanical representation
>>85521072some versions you reroll your HP after every long rest, exactly for that reasonalternatively, that's why the damage numbers are random
Guys. When you will realize that realismfags don't care about realism at all, but want only to be the smart person in the room? And they want to present their love/hate for certain weapons as if intellectual. They're the same as katana nerds from ages past. Not only that, any realistic simulation game is boring and long winded, only to end up killing you in one shot. They're not fun most of the time. Just ignore them and enjoy what you do.>>85519068The last one is literally a copy pasta anon.
>>85524141Hello copypasta, meet bait.
>>85518069That's literally what happens in 3E. If you're fighting the Tarrasque, any point of AC below 55 is a complete waste of time.
>>85517888There are many games I refuse to play because they stick with HP and don't do anything to make the combat interesting. I fucking hate games where it expects you to think doing 14 damage per hit out of 200 HP is interesting in any way. No amount of refluffing is going to make it interesting.
>>85517797>Pathfinder and 3.5 at higher levels you either completely ignore AC or pump it as high as you can.random example - first 'high level', CR16https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar>Angel, Planetar>+3 greatsword +23/+18/+13 melee (3d6+13/19-20) or slam +20 melee (2d8+10)Defense which to me seems rather reasonable for someone who might be fighting in melee a CR16 creature. if your level is on par, this is about the baseline for front-liner melee character.Full Plate + 4: 12 Armor bonus. (Max dex bonus 1)Shield, heavy steel + 4: 6 shield bonus.Amulet of Natural Armor + 4: Ring of Deflection +4: Take standard mook at ac 10 + 12 + 6 + 4 + 4: 36 AC.That Angel is hitting on a 13, 19, 20. - meaning about a 40% chance to land a single attack on you per round.I would say this is going all out on pumping the armor up. This is just basic gear by that level and includes no feats like dodge, stances, special materials used in the armor etc.. Seems like the sweet spot to me - at this point taking the basic defensive feat Dodge and raising your dex to 12 with a low level spell buff lowers that angel's chance to hit from 40% to 30%, mitigating a quarter of your current baseline damage.I think a lot of people fall into the trap of wanting too much - like being both highly defensive and lethal at those levels. That of course is going to require a lot more effort.
>>85527117Looking at that will give you the wrong idea. The Planetar is a full level 17 Cleric stapled to a level 14 Fighter. That could easily be a +32 to hit just using the spells they have prepared on the sheet.
>>85517699my only problems with D&D's AC system is that it severely under-represents the defensive value of shields and makes parrying / blocking hits with a weapon into something rare, specific to certain builds.If you are a standard 1 level mook and your chance to land a solid hit on another guy just like you is 50% and than someone hands that guy a large shield, in reality your chances to land another solid hit would down to like 10%.Other than that, its great - I DM a game in pf1/3e right now and I keep a spread sheet for all the PCs and characters with tables for AC to part of the protection that blocked the strike. Saves me time coming up with descriptions of what happened - at a glance I can tell 'this bounced off your armor, this next one got deflected by your magic shield'I also don't describe HP damage as this >>85520993>shoot somebody in the face 5 timesThe point is, you actually don't shoot him 'in the face'. he just barely gets out of the way needing to flex so fast it hurts him... or your arrow gets stuck in his armor and is now tearing up his skin with every move as a non-debilitating but rather annoying wound... or it grazed him and bounced off..Its on the 6th attempt that you actually shoot him in the face.Same for falling - grabbing unto ledges, breaking his fall on every object between him and the ground and doing all kind of action-hero shit to survive that fall. Lucky that it got only got him superficial wounds.One of my few rules at the table is 'if you guys try to exploit the system in a way where I can't come up with a plausible description on the spot, expect to die.'Like you decided that your character leaps off a dragon at 200ft height in middle of a rocky deadlands? I can't think of a way your dude would live so fuck you, I am not even rolling fall damage, your guy just died. You get a badge 'i stumped the DM' - now roll up your next char.That one rule does a lot of work to keep our games sane.
>>85527265okay, but if we now start looking at the full creature template, than its fair to remember that CR 16 Planetar should presumably be fighting a level 16 Cleric and a Level 16 fighter and 2 more level 16 guys which should include an arcane caster. That means that if Solar is getting those buffs (and the time to actually cast them) than keeping things fair - the fighter is also getting active buffs and support from 3 other characters,AC at that point becomes next to irrelevant for the first attack true - mitigation of that damage transfers over to those other defensesbased on buffs that grant DR, concealment (for those rare mobs at that level that don't have true seeing), extra HP from stuff like Stoneskin, regeneration and healing.However AC will remain very relevant for 2nd and 3rd attacks, usually keeping the incoming damage within buffer of the group's healing abilities and also helping those other defenses like Stone Skin last longer. Overall, i think the point of 3e systems is avoiding the game coming down to one factor or one number. AC is relevant but it should never become a one trick-pony kind of game. Enemy's attack+spells should be compared to defense+spells too.
>>85527688>That means that if Solar is getting those buffs (and the time to actually cast them) than keeping things fair - the fighter is also getting active buffs and support from 3 other characters,The best cleric buffs are self-only. The fighter literally can not get them.
I like padded armor, it doesn’t take much to stop cutting damage (a single thread of kevlar will stop a razor blade), and even abrasion/puncture damage (suffice to say you’ll bleed internally… but at least you can survive). Depending on how thick you can certainly endure a bludgeoning hit (think of how cars crumple instead of reflect on a hard surface).Of course modern armor has giant metal plates that solve all of those issues… to an extent. But, intuitively, covering yourself in pillows seems like the smartest way to defend yourself.
>>85527117Let's look at the CR 16 monsters as a whole.>Old Black Dragon. +25 to hit but also arcane spell levels 1-3. Could easily be higher.>Mature Adult Blue Dragon. +24 to hit, same deal as black dragon.>Mature Adult Copper Dragon: +23 to hit but access to 4th level spells.>Adult Gold Dragon: +23 to hit, 3rd level spells, Bless as an SLA so it's really +24 to hit.>Greater Stone Golem: +42 to hit. You can't reasonably get the AC needed to stop them without going all in on AC.>Mature Adult Green Dragon: +23 to hit, same deal as the other dragons>Horned Devil: +25 to hit plus stun effect plus iteratives, +22 to hit natural attacks after. This is the first that is both affected by normal amounts of AC and guaranteed to be what is listed.>Hound Archon Hero: +25 to hit, but also 1st and 2nd level Paladin spells and Aid as an at-will SLA. With what's on the sheet, it's +29 to hit.>Nightwalker: +24 to hit, permanent +2 to hit on top from an aura for +26 to hit.>Planetar: +24 to hit(the +23 to hit is an error, 14 BAB +7 STR +3 Greatsword), many, many spells. Heroes' Feast + Bull's Strength for longer term buffs and Divine Favor for a short term buff bring it up to +30 and it can go up from there based on spell choice.>Very Young Prismatic Dragon: +28 to hit, 4th level arcane castingI don't think this supports your hypothesis.
>>85527688>Enemy's attack+spells should be compared to defense+spells too.Party defensive spells are either not directly affecting AC or not type compatible. Barkskin and Shield of Faith aren't going to do you much good when you have an amulet of natural armor +4 and a ring of deflection +4. If we were talking about a Psychic Warrior casting Defensive Precognition on themselves, that'd be one thing, but a Cleric won't help you not get hit.
>>85524141>They're the same as katana nerds from ages pastNot really. That was just standard weebery of "Nippon is superior". Realismfags are meanwhile "I am superior"
>>85527876>I don't think this supports your hypothesis.why not? almost everything on that list has attack bonuses that make 36 AC (which again is pretty basic for that level) all very relevant. that is the spot where +1 and -1 effects still matter significantly.Greater Stone Golem is the major exception and clearly this particular monster is just best avoided in melee. if you have to, displacement and mirror image is your only hope.>they have spells, so that Attack Bonus could easily be higherthan PCs have spells too, and that attack bonus could get dispelled back to norm or debuffed to be lower too>>85527791>>85527938The cleric's job would be healing through the damage of that first attack each round that will mostly be getting through. There are some spells Cleric can help with - Prayer debuffs the enemies with no spell resistance or saving through and that -1 adds up on 3 attacks, 2 of which are coming in at parity to AC. If you faced that list above with 36 AC, a Prayer would be significant with almost every one of those.The defensive buffs that would be relevant help: Arcane casters keeping Stone Skin can be a big help. Energy resistances when those apply. Displacement when the monster doesn't have true seeing. Those are not dependent on AC directly but their effect is far more potent on a guy who gets hit once per turn instead of catching all three attacks per turn.
>>85529969>The cleric's job would be healing through the damage of that first attack each round that will mostly be getting through.No, that's a horrible waste of your actions and your resources. You only ever want to spend your action healing if someone is about to die or once you've unlocked Heal and there's an action preventing condition you can stop from eating an action with it. If you're doing anything other than that you will spend more resources than you would acting preventatively.>Arcane casters keeping Stone Skin can be a big help. Energy resistances when those apply. Displacement when the monster doesn't have true seeing.None of those have anything to do with AC and only one of them is available to Clerics. Displacement being vastly more effective than AC at preventing damage is common knowledge and a mark against AC, even.
>>85516504>He relies on armor for protectionYou can't call yourself ascended unless the sole protection you need is the power of your mind.
>>85516504Although I hate the game, Shadowrun's armor is freakishly simple and close to reality: Armor works really well up to a point where it suddenly doesn't, and blood is spilled. It is also especially accutate... the bit where it converts damage to stun when the bullet is stopped.Your organs are safe, but that may still ring you enough to get penalties for a while...Dream Pod 9 also has a neat approach: Due to your character stamina, you have a Flesh Wound Treshold, a Deep Wound Treshold and an Instant kill Treshold at [x] / [2x] / [4x]. When a weapon is shot, the margin of success (how accurately it was shot) determines the damage. Then the wound type is the highest treshold it passes (if any).For instance say you have 15 / 30 /60 and an heavy pistol has a multiplier of x18. A success without margin would deal 18, a fleshwound. But margin of 2 would deal 36, a deep wound. Now let's add armor. It has a value of 10, so your scores are now 25 / 40 / 70. It means a grazing hit is no longer a danger, and even that 2 margins ois only a fleshwound.Against a rocket launcher (multiplier of x100)... so that small flak jacket is useless now
>>85519804I guess I don't have a problem coping with the AC mechanic as it is for specific games. I'm not claiming it's the right choice in all times and in all places.For what it's worth I prefer Active Offence and Defence rolls e.g. PCs roll to Attack vs Enemy Defence Target Number, and PCs roll to Defend against Enemy Attack Target Number. PCs get to roll more, I get to roll less, Enemy numbers are static, it's quick, and gets the job done.
>>85520993Well it's not just or only or exclusively Health, it's however it needs to be for the situation at hand. Exhaustion, glancing blows, fumbling, stamina, robustness, and luck all play a part in the Hit/Get Hit game. To me at least that always made more sense than pure Meat Points, but it is game dependent too. For D&D and its derivatives Hit Points are fine since they tend to scale way upwards at higher levels to the point that it doesn't make sense that a Level 10 Fighter just has more "Health" but instead has more stamina, better skills, and yes perhaps more luck to have gotten so far without dying. But for Dark Heresy most PCs have between 8 and 15 Wounds, and only specific extremely dangerous monsters get more than that since it is trying at least to keep the lethality high and the authenticity intact.
>>85516504A lot of weird conceptual clashing here into nonsense. You can imagine your fighter in either method depicted. Unless the GM has an overriding monopoly on his theater of the mind or is clearly stating otherwise. There is mechanically no difference between an anime fighter with stylized finishers vs an IRL knight executing practical and realistic combat maneuvers. If you were to take the former and place him in a scenario where the latter is clearly superior IE a wannabe combatant in a realistic setting acting like a comic book character, then you'd have your caption makes some sense. But, that's obviously not what you're talking about. You're talking about an actual Anime themed character competing with realistically styled character. In which case the anime superhuman would win hands down. Because he's magical or whatever. If your comparing and contrasting artistic styles, then thematic elements don't reflect gameplay unless you're clearly defining an impossible act by the knight vs the anime character. For example the knight charging on his horse and running a dragon through isn't much different then the anime character killing the dragon with is magical super slice. However, the anime character being able to jump a hundred feet up onto a cliff is different then a fighter using mountain climbing gear or free handing it up a cliff for the better of a day where the fall could kill him. Unless the GM makes both one roll with no failing consequences. TLDR, this thread doesn't make any sense.
>>85527387>my only problems with D&D's AC system is that it severely under-represents the defensive value of shields and makes parrying / blocking hits with a weapon into something rare, specific to certain builds.Fair points. D&D isn't high on verisimilitude given it was adapted from larger wargames with much more binary outcomes.
>>85530983>>85527387Having "Parry" as a reaction that anyone could do (Making an opposed attack roll to your enemy's attack), with shields having a bonus to this action would fix this.The only problem here is that you only get one reaction per turn, so it's generally already spoken for.
>>85530983play ADnD. a standard large shield ( a heater / kite etc) straight up allows you to cancel three attacks to the flank/facings it shields.
>>85517929>binaryThat's how irl body armor often worksEither it stops the attack in its tracks, or it blows through the protection/hits a weak point and inflicts serious damage to the squishy bits.Blunt weapons are basically the only case where "Armor as DR" actually makes sense.
>>85534940Even there it doesn't make sense. When you take a hit to the helmet from a concussive weapon, you're just straight up making a Fort/Con/Wands save against concussion
>>85516504>Pici honestly think that usualy the sweet spot is anywhere between the two, depending on the setting. But usually some knowledge about combat helps describing the actions one takes better than just "I hit it with my weapon" But that is true for most things. the most common offender is "My character feels "emotion""
>>85516504>plate armor>in a Tolkien inspired fantasy setting>not respecting Tolkien's hate of the Normans and their cultural poisoning of England by sticking strictly to chainmail, helmets, and colorful tunics.
>>85516504Take the GURPS pill, or BRP if you're intimidated by high school level math. You want a system with armor as DR and hit locations. Both GURPS and RQ/BRP have combat systems made by HEMAfags and SCAfags, and are supported by /his/ related autism in spades.
>>85516504>bestGiven the abstract nature of games, there's always going to be some level of abstraction when representing armor, so there's no singular best armor system. The best systemS are those which represent armor protecting against the various assaults the setting has to offer, as is armor's purpose in our world.>favoriteI enjoy my own takes on both simplified hit location and improved "defense class" (instead of just armor class).For hit location, each part can be armored (or not), and is worn away by the damage value after applying reduction. How much is reduced (if any) depends on the armor and the attack.Defense class behaves like armor class, but there's a "dodge class" representing evasion on the lowest end of the scale. Whether an attack is dodged or blocked with armor modifies its effect based on the defense "hit" and the attack itself.I like these systems, because the meathead school of thought: "I'm just gonna hit this speedy fuck with muh hammer" is fucking retarded, and I feel both systems represent armor's purpose through its protective properties fairly well.
>>85535270normans also wore chainmail and helmets when they invaded. think plate came way after normandization.>>85534975i like how worlds without number does it. a sort of attack that would cause some damage, even if it didnt do its full effect has “shock” damage. a flat amount of damage that represents shock. like the blunt impact of a halberd that doesnt pierce armor. or a bullet that hits a ballistic plate. though i do like the idea that such stuff has a save for “shock”. I have never been a fan of damage reduction as a flat decrease of damage.
>>85534572ADnD had facings? damn it, why did they remove this?So how would 2 guys with shields fight in that system if they could cancel each other's attacks. (is that 3 per fight or per round?)
>>85516504The Riddle of Steel, of course, has the best armor system. It has also been dead for 20 years and never had much content besides the rules. The base system is solid. For attack character chooses one of the opennings like Cut at the arms or upper legs, there is a lot whole of fun with feints and misdirection. Attacker and defender can trick each other before the dice are rolled. If the defender wins attack misses, if the attack lands it hits one of 6 or fewer areas. For example, Cut at the arm can hit the hand, forearm, elbow, upper arm. Some opennings share overlapping hit locations, many don't. Armor protects certain exact hit locations, shirt sleeved birnie covers the torso, shoulders and upper arms, long sleeved birnie protects everything its little brother does with elbows and forearms on top that. It would annoying to remember but the devs found a good solution: instead of listing dozen silly entries armor has a picture with shadow covering the protected locations and all locations correspond to ones used by the system. On the protected location armor adds its Armor Value to reduce damage and it can make a huge difference. Sturdy clothing, leather, padded armor, Eastern khalats can offer AV 1 or 2, mail grants AV3-5 depending on the cost and weight, the best mail has awesome protective qualities but very expensive, plate armor has AV4-6 as do most metal helmets. Armor can be layered and combined together for extra protection and extra expenses. The damage formula on successful hit is (attacker's Strength + Damage Rating of the weapon + bonus to Armor Penetration if any + bonus successes from attack + extra oomph the attacker can add to Swings or Bashes (not Thrusts)) - (the defender's Toughness + Armor Value on hit location). Even 2 points of Armor can mean the difference between winning and losing so armoring up, picking the opennings and defending them or knowing when to counter-attack is very important.
>>85516504I like Hero System. Armor reduces damage. You've got other stats for dodging. Hero System also uses two types of damage. Body as "meat damage" that recovers at a few points a week. And Stun which is the amount of damage/pain you can take before getting knocked out. So shit like a helmet might stop you from taking Body damage from a hammer blow to the head, but it can still ring your bell stunning you for a bit, or even knock somebody unconscious.
>>85516504>he wears armorTrue warriors go naked. Body paint, funny hats and socks optional.
>>85516744The heavier you are, the faster your terminal velocity, you moronArmor lets you travel faster
>>85521846>some versions you reroll your HP after every long rest, exactly for that reasonhuhThat's a really interesting mechanic, I've never heard of someone doing this, could you link or elaborate?I'd imagine in all situations except the most time pressured, this wouldn't work well, since the players would just keep resting until they get good rolls.
Shad is the biggest hack on youtube. Knows fuck all about hema, history or anything aside from what he watches other, better youtubers like Matt Easton say.
>>85516744> not begging and whimpering at the DM's feet for a second chance when your glass cannon shatters
>>85543637I wish I remembered which OSR/version of D&D had it.Basically just long rest for rerolling your HP; because it's an OSR, it is not advisable to do so in a dungeon, and resting in town only counts once, so you can't really game it.
I like the Warmachine/IKRpg system. It's dirt simple, you roll to hit and then roll to damage, and if you're not a giant robot you don't have much in the way of HP.Attacker rolls 2d6 + MAT, if it beats defenders DEF you hit.Attacker rolls 2d6 + STR + Weapon damage, each point above defender's ARM value deals one damage. Idk. Maybe that system is just on my mind lately due to reasons.Fuck Jason Soles.
>>85516504Balancing priorities is always a pain. Does anyone have a system that is fun, realistic and simple AND takes into account different types of armour on different body parts?
>>85516540Shadiversity is a pretty based mormon though.Check out game knights.
I'll risk sounding like a dipshit, but I like the system that I devised myself.It's loosely based on DH2, but without "abstract forcefield" of HP that you need to remove before the damage actually affects the target.Damage roll is D10 + weapon bonus - armor bonus, and you compare the result with a table of effects.:0 or less the attack bounces off.1-5 you chip away a point or two of armor, reducing it until repaired.On 6+ progressively worse stuff happens, up to and including death.So, wearing heavier stuff increases your chances of the armor breaking instead of, say, your arm.Still, if you have 10 armor, and the attacker manages to roll 16 to damage, the hit will punch through and mess you up, so it's never 100% guaranteed protection unless you get your armor somewhere in the high teens (which is approaching armored vehicle territory).You can also glance someone to death by repeatedly rolling the "lose 1 armor" result until they get to 0, a which point almost every hit kills.
>>85549941I said nothing of his personal life being based or not, his content and mannerism is largely cringe regardless.
>>85520961Shad managed to write and publish a decent book, so that's already better than most fa/tg/uys
>>85516504Why yes, i enjoy GURPS of course.
>>85516762What the fuck are you even talking about
>>85536947And on top of that since the Hero System has a power framework you can even give things like high end plate DR 8 and also +1 to your defense to reflect its ability to deflect blows.
>>85550719i don't know who that is.
>>85550495So an injury based system rather than HP/boxes? Could be interesting for a grittier game.In my homebrew I run something closer to DH1: You've got a value to hit, you've got values that reduce damage taken, and then you've got optional active defenses before or after that. Once you hit 0 HP most people go down, but you've got options to stay up until you're Critically Wounded and can't keep fighting or bounce back into fighting condition even if healed. Keep fucking around or get hit especially hard and you take a Fatal Wound with permanent consequences you'll have to buy off at best, or dying at worst.I've found that combat has a nice spread of viability for things like multiple attacks/split damage types and singular, focused hits that penetrate or blow over armor values, with defensive options like blocking with a shield or dodging with leftover actions filling in the blanks.
>>85550495For D&D I have a homebrew armor change that I'm planning on trying to convince my group to test out the next time I DM.Its something different than DR, and it's for 3.0 rather than 5th. Its meant to try and be a bit of a midstage between DR being too lopsided vs. low damage but not vs high.I call it DT for damage threshold, threshold basically being an indication of where the armor stops being any more effective. To explain, I'll give the example of 4/1 DT.Any damage lower than 4 you have resistance against (So if you get hit with 2 damage you take 1). If you get hit for more than 4 damage you do not have 4 resistance, but the damage is still reduced by 1 (the minimum reduction of your armor). the second number (the minimum reduction) is always 1/4 of the first number rounded down (So 9/2, 10/2, 11/2, 12/3, ect).A suit of fullplate would have a DT of 20/5 as an example of DT.This would make it so that the DT is effective at a higher scaling rate than normal DR, while also trying to throttle its effect on lower damage down a bit (Since the ratio of the threshold for resistance being 4 times that of the DR fallback amount)BAB would be halved in this situation (So a good BAB would be 1 every 2 levels), but BAB adds to damage as well as hit (So +10 would be +10 hit/damage).Magical enhancements of +1/+2/ect. would be removed and replaced with enhancements to DT instead, and natural armor would likewise increase DT.I would be heavily altering monsters BAB on a case to case basis since they're designed around the to hit model of armor.
>>85517781then don't play games about make believe
>>85550495>regular damage rolls>tracking fluctuating armor durabilityYes, it's pretty shit, my dude.
>>85543658But he is a Mormon and so he has a nice Moron defense force on /tg/.
>>85552894Is it really? There's no HP/Wound equivalent, so your current armor value is the only thing you need to track of. I playtested it in a vacuum and I thought it worked pretty neat.
>>85552187Fucking retard. If I play Shadowrun and shoot someone, the game mechanics are going to give me a play by play of what actually happened and can have effects beyond HP go down because hit boxes in Shadowrun actually fucking mean something.
>>85551542That sounds interesting, what will be the DC to hit someone then? Just 10 + Dex + size bonuses? And can I still build my character to be an agile fucker that dodges hits rather than letting the armor protect him?Logically, if most (all) hits deal reduced damage, then the players should get hit more often to compensate. Otherwise the combat will turn into a horrible, horrible slog.In principle though, I like it. No more 40 AC virtually untouchable tanks that you have 5% chance of hitting if you're not a dedicated combat monster.
>>85536226they'd be whaling at each other pretty uselessly cancelling 3 attacks per round. its why speed was such a thing and fighters getting extra attacks per round
>>85536226weapon speed was such an important thing*
>>85536226and in answer to your question, it was a big part of why hirelings and followers were so important, since OG dnd arose from hex and chit wargaming. so your fighter would usually spend a chunk of his loot hiring guys at villages etc to be his personal archery / crossbow / shield wall guys to overwhelm enemy groups
>>85517699>If I use my imagination I can pretend the mechanic isn't badLol okay.
Keep it simple, doesn't need to be in depthAos Soulbound flat armour damage reduction is fine. There are tools to have it lowered, and you can't really excessively stack it, but everyone can in theory get access to it, no bullshit proficiencies or whatever, just spend the gold analog costs and book, you have -3 incoming damage.Just make sure to keep on top of repairing it.How you take damage is usually based on enemy martial characters comparing their attacking stat to your defensive stat, so if you don't invest in your defenses, you're going to be taking a lot of damage anyway.
>>85516504>I've never been a big fan of D&D styled baseline armor,I used to dislike it, but over the decades I've come to appreciate it more and more.(1) soak/damage reduction is fiddly(2) It models partial armor very wellConsider the classical Conquistador armor - a metal breastplate (and maybe a helmet). That is a lot of very good armor in one location, and nothing everywhere else. The best way to model this truly is "Either you do full damage or you don't" (You could, of course, have hit locations AND damage reduction, like e.g. CP2020 does, but that is SUPER fiddly)Of course, in D&D, some of the things you fight can punch STRAIGHT through a steel plate, so it's not exactly perfect, but I really do like it.World of Darkness ca. 2006 (I don't remember what that edition was called, it was the one with Vampire: the Requiem) was also pretty good.
>>85549056Song of Swords Revised
>>85553592armor has deflection (the normal + to AC), DT (The damage threshold), max dex and then a STR requirement.I have it statted out so light armor has very little DT, but the AC is the same as it is now in 3.5 (So a chain shirt would still be a +4 def with +4 max dex, with an 18 AC like normal, and 6/1 DT. So a light armor user would still have the same AC as currently, but their DT would be of very little use, since most hits will be more than 6, so in practice they'll only have DR/1 except against the weakest of foes)At that point Deflection stops increasing, just DT increasing for Medium and heavy armor as max dex decreases, so that medium and heavy armor users are easier to hit but have high DT and can shrug off the blows instead.I know the deflection +bonus to AC not increasing with heavier armors isn't very true to RL, but it keeps the paradigm of Light armor users dodging hits (Since light armor has equal deflection as heavy but higher maximum AC) while heavy armor users get hit easier but just ignore it.
>>85556790>The best way to model this truly is "Either you do full damage or you don't""Okay I snipe hands. You get no AC.""I snipe hands again. No AC.""Snipe hands.""Snipe hands."
>>85564233Dude, that's exactly why in every non-retarded system hitting specific body parts is actually harder than just hitting the body.Of course it doesn't make sense in D&D, for that you'd have to model all armor as DR.
>>85564537>hitting specific body parts is actually harder than just hitting the bodyIt's circular ingame logic, seems hardcore because it's harder but it contradicts reality. Hitting extremities with a swing is often easier in real life than hitting the torso. They're closer, they're often in the way and they're often more exposed. IRL I can snipe hands all day and ignore AC. Armor doesn't restrict my opennings like weapons do, I can attack individual body parts as I wish. Armor reduces the payoff of using protected opennings.
>>85564233Right, you try to hit the body part that isn't covered by armor.Which increases your difficulty by the amount of body covered by armor.Which gives you exactly the D&D AC system.Did you think you were owning me by re-stating my exact argument?
>>85564912>Which increases your difficulty by the amount of body covered by armor.No, I just attack your arms when you start flailing them aimlessly. They're in front of your body and your body in no way covers them. It's easy, very easy against careless person. But you're probably a fat fightlet trolling with retarded posts.
>>85564991>No, I just attack your arms when you start flailing them aimlessly. They're in front of your body and your body in no way covers them. It's easy, very easy against careless person.So hitting someone in full plate but no gauntlets should be as easy in-game as hitting someone wearing nothing?
>>85564991> Conquistador armor didn't help, they just carried all that weight around for the gainzdo you hear yourself?
>>85565083>>85565098I see you're aiming for the same bad faith circular argument we had million times. Take this and fuck off.
>>85565116>implying those are the same anon
>>85516504>this is a "Chad" nowwew lad
>>85517880Thank you for reminding me of this. I very well may use this in my meatspace games. (It'd bork the foundry automation, and since that's already automated, I don't care as much.)We've done other things to smooth out GURPS bizarre damage variance already, but every little bit helps.