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People always comment on how fighters in D&D 3.5e and 5e scale linnearly vs magic users that scale quadratically do to an inceease in spells slots per level in additoon to acaling spell effects. Is there a way to make a game where fighters scale aggressively as well? Is there a game that does this already?

I had this thought while watching a bolywood film recently. Western watchers looking at a bollywood film might ask "why can their heroes do such ridiculous things with no explanation?". I think we have it backwards. They may look at our movies and say "why do you need to explain why a hero does superhuman things, he's a hero so he just does".

With that in mind why not have fighters that at higher levels can wrestle a titan, not with magic, but shear heroism? Why not have fighters evolve into warriors that can single handedly destroy entire armies with a fruit knife by force of will alone? Can you do this without just having magic but different? Vidya games like divinity that treat martial abilities as another type of magic abilities are fun but somehow its not quite what I'm imagining.
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>>85022960
The question is how would it differ from magic, mechanically? Do fighters get a “wrestle a giant” move that’s limited to once per day? Must they retrain their muscles at the end of the day in order to use that move again tomorrow?
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DnD 4e
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>>85022960
if this is a problem you wish to fix, you should absolutely try 4e dnd. the game has its flaws, however they did great in solving that issue.
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>>85022991
No, i think the open ended mighty deed system from DCC is a good starting place. You get a bonus die to roll woth your attacks and the result adds to your d20 roll and the bonus die also shows how successful any mighty deed you declare is. A mighty dead can be a disarm, a trip, a flip of a table, a shove etc.. its not defined in the book and the game encourages player to be creative.
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>>85022960
Spheres of might for pathfinder 1e sort of does this - the martial abilities scale pretty solidly and you can do all sorts of crazy shit that ranges from "not magic just sort of superhuman" to "okay dude that's just magic but with a sword".
It lets you do the shit you're talking about to some extent, wrestle way bigger things than usual and even get bonuses to it for doing so, shoot a bunch of arrows into a wall and run along them, jump through the air a ridiculous distance, all that good shit.
If I wanted to make a bollywood style character or campaign it's probably what I'd use, but mostly because I'm used to it and pathfinder.
There might be something better suited out there that I'm not aware of but if you just want to look at how quadratic martials could work in d20 it's probably a pretty good place to start.
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>>85023038
I just want to stay away from systems where those abilities are essentially just magic but with a different name. I haven't played 4e but it seems like its a lot of tight well defined abilities that combo and im sort feeling like the opposite of that. I dont really aee it as a function of queueing up specific actions but more open. Like imagine that your character wants to leap into the dragons mouth, use his shield to prop open the jaw and then thrust his broadsword into the roof of the dragons mouth without getting bogged down in a series of skill rolls.
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Wizards should not automatically add new spells to their spellbook, it's that simple. Sorcerers, warlocks and all half-casters are already fairly well restricted in scope but wizards should only be able to add spells found on scrolls (with a not insignificant fail chance) or take possession of other wizards' spellbooks.
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Just give maritals bullshit anime abilities.
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>>85022960
Why not just... increase the numbers? They get more bonuses to hit, more bonuses to damage, speed, etc. until they hit the advancement you want them to have?
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>>85023140
OP here. I completely agree and its worth mentioning that i dont play games where you get automatic spells. I mostly play DCC for my fantasy and wizards in that are impossible to balance anyway.
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>>85022960
You can actually resolve most of the problem by simply adding another die to their weapon for each extra attack they're granted.
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>>85022960
Book of Nine Swords, basically. Or Exalted's Charms. Whatever the fuck is going on with Exalted.
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>>85023229
This is the best answer so far. Focused unlockable abilities belong in vidya games. Still im interested in seeing more of what peiple think on the topic.
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>>85022960
It's impossible to make a quadratic fighter because the capabilities of the fighter, by definition, only ever involve fighting things. No matter how much over the top anime power you give the fighter, it will always be about combat. The magician can do things that have nothing to do with fighting, and as his level grows both the quality and quantity of things he can do improves. The myth that D&D is a game about killing monsters exacerbates this because it creates the perceived need to balance the combat capabilities of the classes. The more intricate rules you make for combat the worse this misperception will be. In an actually 'balanced' game a fighter should always kill a magician in a fight, but the magician should be able to do other weird things that can only be done with magic. Spells that imitate the core functions of other classes should be severely limited in number, or done away with entirely.
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>>85023468
Yeah we are on the same page in a lot of ways. But Im not approaching the issue from a balance perspective, but from a desire to see warriors in a more fun, engaging and heroic way. Its not to tear down casters but to raise up warriors.
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>>85023375
>>85023229
Increasing stats does not work. I'll assume you're playing something similar to 5e because I dont know how DCC works. In combat, there's basically 2 options:

>DC treadmill
Oh wow you rolled a 45 great job. Thing is, this guy has mega super uber armor and his AC is 50. Try again!
>No risk
Yes, your 45 rends the plate armor. Just dont even roll dude, you always hit.

Worse, the fighter is still less interesting. A 5e wizard can cast Black Tentacles and grapple 10 people in 1 action. The fighter can grapple one person per round.

>okay, but with 45 strength, the fighter can jump in the air and catch a volley of arrows and throw them back
Can he? These no system to let GMs ajucate this. What is the DC for catching arrows? Does it need 30, dex 45 str? More? Less?

Finally, every fighter becomes the same if stats are the only thing that matters for them. All fighters will increase the same stats (str, dex, con)
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>>85022960
I need to know what movie that is from, it's very important.
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>>85023647
D+D resolution of roll 1 die and hope is dogshit. Any decent system will have an obvious floor and ceiling, so the gauge is obvious and doesn't move frivolously with "levels", and it will include ways to increase your odds of success through aiming or styling.
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>>85023733
Even all wing for the perfect dice system, you need to bend the initiative order for fighters. In 5e, fighter cannot act outside their turn. You have not described how stat based advancement would allow a fighter to catch an axe volley and throw it back.
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>>85022960
Literally just take your pick of any superhero system and you can do literally all of that already. Prowlers and Paragons, Mutants and Masterminds, Valor, BESM fuck, even Maeista if you don't mind all the pregnancy.
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>>85022960

This sounds a lot like Exalted, OP
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>>85023363
>just add another chance to roll a 1
Numbskull.
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>>85022960
>Is there a way to make a game where fighters scale aggressively as well?
Yes. PF2e achieved this.
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>>85022960
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>>85022960
The issue is that your fighting against centuries of western culture and myth that form the basis of most systems instead of flowing with it.
If you flow with it at best a fighter unless they are like a demigod should be able to develop their Strength to the point where they can kill a man in a single solid blow but not past that, skilled enough with his weapons to be a master with it but not to cleave the air or split the ground with it (unless the weapon itself is magic), and have the endurance to be a arrow pincushion with his guts hanging out and to keep on trucking off of rage and adrenaline till the fights over.
With these parameter's you give them a bunch of health or the power to deny getting downed, Heavy bonuses to weapons they have trained with, and boosts to whatever their punching skills are plus a temporary adrenaline boost that buffs their physical stats when they fly into a rage.
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>>85023221
What are these abilities from?
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>>85023007
This.

>>85025685
game called Fellowship. the perfect game for if your group of players is the type obsessed with 'recruiting' Boblin the Goblin and 'redeeming' your equivalent of Avatar's Zuko, especially if you get the 'Fellowship in Rebellion' supplement which explicit has a character type for repeatedly joining and betraying the group.
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>>85025702
This art style is cringey as hell
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>>85022991
Think more Kratos or Bayonetta, who have absurd finishing moves they use against their foes but they only pull them off once they've beaten the shit out of it enough to have a moment to use it.
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>>85023221
This is basically Creative Mode Minecraft Steve.
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>>85025663
This man gets it. The Western canon present knights and warriors that are far more grounded than you might see in India or E Asia. This is fine for fiction because friendly mages tend to take more of a backseat role while enemy mages do most of their magic in the form of rituals or shit that is otherwise not going to stop the hero carving through his skull with a sharp sword (especially not if he's gone out and collected the Macguffin or discovered the evil necromancer's secret weakness). It's less fine in for a game where the wizard player may not want to take a backseat role.

Now the obvious solution is to draw on the sorts of feats heroes accomplish in Bollywood etc unfortunately this leaves a game feeling disconnected from classic fantasy, hence the common accusation that these sort of solutions "feel too anime" or whatever. Even if you keep the core tropes of knights/wizards/dragonslaying/etc it won't feel quite right when the knight starts running across raindrops or punching the earth to knock an enemy off their feet.

>>85023468
That's hardly a solution though. Ideally everyone should be able to make a meaningful contribution in most domains of the game whether combat or non-combat. Otherwise you just end up with 3/4 of the players sitting around bored af at any given time as their character fades into the background. Look at Shadowrun for example, one of the most common complaints about the system is how boring it is for everyone else to sit around while the hacker does their thing.
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>>85025833
You could *theoretically* build a character with all those abilities in Fellowship but you can only take moves either from your own playbook or from others in your party, and those moves are from at least three or four different playbooks, not all in the same one.
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Exalted is a fun system to play for this kind of fighting
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>>85023101
then theres probably an ability you can fluff as that.
But given, its not that. 4e isnt that freeform. its the opposit of freeform.
Its an extremeley tight well thought out combat engine, but you can refluff almost anything with frightening ease.
So realy it comes down to how much youre willing to refluff, roleplay and suspend your disbelief.
IT realy depends on how you imagine a move called somethig like "Dragon Avalanche strike" would actually play out
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>>85023229
that doesnt solve the issue at all my dude.
To give you a basic example thats iirc true in 5e. no matter how big your bonus is, you cannot grapple someone bigger than yourself.
Flat out cannot do it.
in 5e you also cannot charge anyone without a feat.
Meanwhile wizards get to fly.
In most systems no matter how big your damage is you cannot destroy a stone wall.
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>>85023468
>the name is fighter so it can only fight!
Why can a thief lockpick then?
A fighter comes from "Fighting man"; read a soldier, a mercenary, a man at arms, a noble.
That doesnt mean his capeabilities are "Fight"
Hercules would be a fighter and he rearranged rivers.
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>>85023468
>>85026295
If you wanna go further down your logic, and perhaps you should.
Then you at least should be fair with it.
A wizard is a "magic user", or a "spell caster"
he casts spells. He casts a spell to fly, he casts a spell to make a fireball.
The fither is a fighter, he fights. The thief is a thief, he steals.
Good.
THe problem is a mountain range in front of the party? The fighter fights the mountain range, destroying it.
The party is falling to their doom? The fighter fights gravity itself and wins. dragging it up towards them.
The Kingdom is falling due to inflation? Fighter fights the decreasing value of fiat currency.
The party needs to infiltrate the evil barons cottage but the moon is too bright? The thief steals the moonlight.
The party needs to find a way into a Palace but need a password? The thief steals the password from the dream of the evill baron.
If you wanna be like that, go all the way. Give everything stats, and give the fighter good enaugh stats to fight it.
If you wanna play it that way.
Which you shouldnt because "one spotlight per scene" leads to boring sessions. See the dark eye if you wanna know what that leads to.
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>>85024973
Its actually worse than that. I started a thread solving a D&D problen while not actually being a D&D player. Ive dabbled in it but its not for me reasons other than fighters sucking.
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>>85022960
What's the difference between doing a billion points of damage with a sword swing and doing that with a fireball?

The issue is that D&D's fighter is built on the idea that you go down into a dungeon with segmented rooms where you fight X encounters per day to get the treasure at the end of the dungeon.

This system has been shoe horned to try and squeeze narrative where it didn't exist outside of the players talking to each other or the GM. My fighter is a dumb slab of meat because investing in the other stats does nothing for his primary role. Going further, being a Fighter doesn't mean you couldn't and didn't learn how to pick locks, being a silver tongue manipulator, or a scholar, it's just the system doesn't inherently support this or support it well, because it's not that imperative to dungeon crawling.
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>>85025953
Not only that, they're from the Destiny playbooks, which is even harder to get. That ability where you can run on water droplets requires you to become the perfect elf, that move where you dig though dreams requires you to be the platonic ideal of a dwarf, etc.
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>>85028119
>What's the difference between doing a billion points of damage with a sword swing and doing that with a fireball?
The problem is that's not the only difference between the fighter and the wizard in 5e. The wizard has all kinds of "I win" buttons. The wizard can: charm people to solve social encounters, teleport across gaps, fall huge distances without taking damage, see in the dark, read people's minds, float though the air, turn invisible, grapple people without touching them, give themselves gills, magically open locked doors, read peoples thoughts and bind dragons to the ground.... with a SECOND level spell slot. At higher levels, wizards can pull even more bullshit.

Meanwhile fighters can ... punch things hard.
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>>85028441
That's what I'm saying. The fighter has no utility aside from hitting things and the tool kit of the spellcaster has only been expanded exponentially.

More so, the spells completely bypass the need for any specific sort of stats or even the neat of skills so spellcasters are nearly far removed from the systems the other classes have to use and rely on.

How vastly different would the wizard be if the use of a spell required a skill check?
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>>85026274
Those seem like problems with 5e

Even 3.5e had none of those issues
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I've played systems like that, they can be quite fun. Note that on a 6 or lower not only does the spell fail, the GM can do anything they think works in the world to twist the knife. Also note the Ritual ability, which lets the wizard do literally anything with some GM drawback. The penalty clears on a long rest.

I prefer this system to 5e, but not because of the wizard ability rolls, I like its whole philosophy where it simplifies out tactical combat for a more narrative focus.
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>>85028604
meant for >>85028506
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>>85028604
Oh and also note that they roll 2d6, not a d20 in this system.
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>>85026274
> To give you a basic example thats iirc true in 5e. no matter how big your bonus is, you cannot grapple someone bigger than yourself.
this is... not true of 5e
you can grapple two sizes larger
you're right about the lack of charging though
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>>85028665
One size larger*
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>>85025775
You’re right. Do you have any ideas on how to implement this mechanically? All I can think of is giving fighters a free maneuver when the enemy’s HP is in single digit.
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>>85022991
This isn't 4e where you can only do specific sword swings a limited amount of times a day.
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>>85028508
youre wrong in anyhting but charging which is the only thing you can do without feats in 3.5 that i mentioned.
and 3.5 INVENTED feat tax holy shit, its one of the most common criticisms of 3.5
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>>85028974
like any ohter edition where the barbarian can only get angry X ammount of times a day.
And no, the powers in 4e specifically arenrt "i swing my sword in this way"
Theyre called exploits for a reason.
Theres only so many times a day that a situation arises where some outlandish move actually has a c hance to happen.
Its deliberatley a narrative abstraction.
Same as HP beeing a narrative abstraction.
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>>85029113
SO why is it impossible for those situations to happen only exactly once a day?
>"Wow Grognar, that move you you grabbed a goblin and bashed another goblin over the head with him was cool! DO it again!"
>"Nope, sorry, I already did it once today, I can do it again once I take a nap though."
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>>85029199
you can do it again, as an improvised action just like any other edition.
Exploits are mroe like "The goblin has his defense low so grognard uses the opportunity to grab the goblin and could leverage the surprise to easily strike another goblin with him"
If yu wanna do it again, you gotta roll for grapple and roll for an improvised weapon attack.
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>>85029466
But the GM never said the Goblin's defenses are low, why would you just assume they are?
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>>85029530
because its a narrative abstraction.
You give the players some control over the narrative this way.
Thats why its an exploit.
Simmilar how you give wizards control over the narrative in other editions by stuff like false life or in a more extreme case wish.
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>>85029593
Oh cool. I just declare the goblin I'm fighting trips and drops his weapons and armor and I slit his throat with zero resistance. Man playing 4e is fucking easy.
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>>85029599
i guess if youre a retard and misrepresent the argument then maybe it is
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>>85022960
If I am playing fighter I like being confined to the limits of pseudo-realism. The gif in your pic OP interests me in no way.
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>>85029661
Then your opinion is wrong, because the gif illustrates the absolute *minimum* level of abilities which martials require to stay relevant to the game at all past about 7th level. What you want doesn't matter. What fighters need is what matters.
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>>85024218
>doesn't know that to-hit and damage are different things
You are truly the single most massive idiot I've encountered this week.
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>>85029599
With what power? Is it a rogue daily?
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>>85032723
Narrative abstraction bro. I'm just playing 4e.
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>>85022960
If talking about D&D. Find the class with the highest number of spells and abilities and give fighters feats/abilities equal to that. For example in 3rd edition the Druid gets 64 abilities/spells by 20th level a fighter that got 64 feats by 20th level with the ability to take epic feats, even before epic level, that are on the fighter bonus epic feat list would be quite powerful.
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>>85022960

Have A bigger focus on increasing the damage they deal in addition to an increase in the number of attacks.
Such as your proficiency bonus also increases the damage, so the extra attacks are exponential with the increase in damage.

The problem here is that this makes your weapon die damage virtually meaningless since the majority of your damage is coming from class.
It also runs into the problem of being brittle, in that all your damage still comes from your basic attack, so shutting you down is pretty easy even if you can do absurd damage.


Basically, if you want your melee people to be caster level, you have to basically make them casters ala the tome of battle, as now you both scale like a caster and are no longer brittle in what you can do like a caster.
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>>85023229
You're sort of on to something here. Honestly what really limits martials isn't abilities or anything like that. It's that their stats don't constrain or condition their upper limit in any way.

In OP's example, a level 1 fighter is struggling to throw an axe, but the level 15 fighter is fast and strong enough to catch multiple axes and then throw them all back at once with startling accuracy and faster than the level 1 fighter can hope to react, killing them all instantly.

In an anime, the lvl20 fighter is good and able to keep up with the lvl40 boss character, but then the boss suddenly catches the lvl20 fighter's fist, revealing "heh...I was only using 5% of my power," then proceeds to beat him.

That's the problem with most games. There's no definition of what a Max level martial should be or should not be doing that matches with mythic status, an example of a level 1 human former and what he's doing, and then no gradiant of scale between the two. There's no "Okay, you level up, so you can jump 5 more feet, catch one more blade, and be able to catch attacks of this strength and speed or lower". It's just you level up, level up, level up DING Now you get a new feat and then maybe it might look impressive, but usually not.

I think that's where you need to start to get mythic martial status.
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>>85023221
Can you call it game rules/features if it's just "my character does whatever he wants"?
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just dnd problems.
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>>85022960
Depending on game (but here I'll use 2e as an example), this LWQW meme is very like to be false:
>while it factors in lvl, it never factors in cost and duration
>a powerful high-end wiz must spend a literal fortune just to learn those spells, compared to a fighter who's deadly even with mundane weapons
>while the fighter never runs out of hits, the wiz can easily run out of spells
>so they have completely different functions in a party: fighter is always front, always available, wiz is always back, and more often than not, he runs out of actions well before the fighter gets fatigued
>if you dress up a fighter with magical gear for the same amount of gold you spend on wiz spells, you would get an almost unstoppable war machine with various immunities and extra powers
>people also often forget, that the fighter (in an ideal case) only ever has to hit a wiz once, while wiz spells are rarely fatal on one hit (if they are, they have rare material components)
>as a fighter, in any campaign basically, you're already fighting impossible monsters, kinda like in bollywood movies (if we're being real, a nonmagical swordsman should never have any chance against e.g. a dragon)
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>>85029661
That gif is pseudo-realism.
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>>85038176
>giving martials predefined bullshit abilities is game breaking
>yet giving wizards predefined bullshit abilities is just standard spell casting
curious

for any one of those abilities, a 5e wizard has a spell that does it better.
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>>85034353
Yeah but uh. What power? It should have a name
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>>85042960
to be fair here, half the point of martials is they're explicitly NOT using magic and are just skilled: the things that OP is asking for is basically asking for martial characters to be magic as well in a DBZ kind of way.
The actions undertaken by the gif are not normal or rational by any account, and are very much something that would be impossible for a human to accomplish in the same way Master roshi grabbing bullets out of the air are.

Allowing Martials to utilize spell like fighting capabilities isn't bad, but it just turns your melee characters into mages who are just muscle wizards with swords.
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>>85047078
How many times does it has to be repeated that "physically possible for humans" is not remotely enough to compare with high-level casters?

Fundamentally, you *have to* have Martials go ridiculous like that, or they become narratively marginal meatsacks attending the Wizard.

This obsession with not-even-Captain-America as a peer to Doctor Strange with *less* breaks just does not work. It never has worked, and it never will work, because they are just too wildly disparate in narrative impact.
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>>85022960
Literally just play 4e
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>>85025775
I like the idea of a "momentum" system. Maybe martial get points every time they do (and take) damage. So once he's done 30 damage, he unleashes "Ancestor's Call:Bladestorm" to do a bunch of damage. This could even flip the utility of magic vs martial (ie, magics are powerful early in the day when they have slots, martials are strong late in the day, after building up momentum).

I think the main point is to stop pretending martials are limited to merely human fears. If you have 100 HP, you should have cool superhero abilities
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>>85029599
Why are 5e drones like this?
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The problem with martials is not that they don't have super anime fighting powers. It's that their only means of solving problems is by fighting it and any options aside from that is limited to a skill system the casters can readily ignore with spells that can do things they could not do with skills.

So if the Fighter can only solve a problem by fighting, what good are they when the problem can resist their only means of solving a problem? How long before I can't bash down the door? Kill the guards, swim my way under the well, climb the wall, etc where the caster can teleport, charm the guards, use magic to force the door open and use magic to bypass immunity to physical damage and their only recourse is to be cucked by the spell caster to give them magic items that are still limited but act as a means for them to do things their class can never do naturally?
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>>85053978
The problem then is that you have to structure the game around a longer combat length to get use out of them and set in safeguards against keeping the resource between fights because otherwise you see parties dragging out a fight to let the martials beat them up for points. Iron Heroes did something similar and it did not work at fucking all if your party didn't suck hard and make fights take forever.
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>>85055826
if you get hit multiple times consecutively by someone weaker than you it should start to eat your cool guy points as does taking too long to kill someone weak
bigger threats should be inherently too big to do this fuckery
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>>85055797
seems like the answer is to allow the skill system to achieve unnatural feats. I'm reminded of that 4e rogue epic destiny where they were able to steal aspects of reality
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>>85055869
I would agree with that. The other half would be the make all PCs use the same systems. They don't have to approach that system the same way but casters shouldn't be able to ignore 90% of the game's mechanics.
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>>85055892
this is why I like PF1e's Spheres expansion
everybody gets weird shit at higher levels (or you can block off the explicitly superpowered shit for everyone)
both magic and martial/skill bastard types get all-day abilities but have to put more into using other stuff
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>>85055913
I think I would also go a step further. If stats are to have any meaning or importance why shouldn't spells have stat requirements? Why should magic be single stat dependent? If you are a user of enchantment magic why shouldn't you then spec for charisma? Similarly, why wouldn't or shouldn't you have to make wisdom checks when using magic that lets you divine or look for things?
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>>85056002
yeah that's pretty reasonable
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>>85022960
The key starting point is declaring when the mundane does not compete. You *have to* leave even Captain America behind if the Wizard gets to become Doctor Strange, because in a TTRPG there's no editorial department crowbarring the plot in a shape where both matter. And GMs doing the same is generally considered Railroading Dickery.

Beyond this, the Fighter cannot be a part of the same "world" as the Wizard. It's the worst legacy code because it's the last *truly* single-function class concept, and the design has declared *everyone else* needs to be able to handle a fight well. Though this is a simple matter of replacing "Fighter" with "Knight" or "Warrior" or some other not-literally-named-for-one-function name for the same "niche".

In terms of mechanics, the "magic but different" criticism for Tome of Battle arises from "unreasonable" usage constraints alongside a specific list one learns limited options from, even independently of the most off-the-wall options. This leads me to believe the function needs to tie directly to physical exertion, while the limit of how many one character has is of *improving* them to "extremes" rather than access.

So stamina system with "gambits" or "exertions" that cost it with *some* prerequisites to try them but automatically available when you hit them, then the "really crazy" stuff is "Mastering" them to become on par with the likes of Tome of Battle Maneuvers, with Martial classes having extra stamina and automatic Mastery choices. Then a bit about more stamina for more effect, bounded by risk of self-harm from overexertion.

It may scale to Complete Nonsense, but it's very specifically Normal Person Things scaled to that "range". You leap tall buildings in a single bound by literally Jumping Good, how tall of a building is a direct function of the basic jumping rules. Combine with implausible balance that lets you stand on air and you can simulate high-speed flight.
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>>85056245
Tome of Battle's restrictions weren't unreasonable and it dodged the problem of spamming a single thing infinitely that you see in nearly every other stamina system.
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>>85022960
Balancers are a boring menace.
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>>85022960
Make martials and casters gain new abilities at the same rate. If a fighter gets a new feat every two levels, a wizard learns one new spell every two levels.
Then, make these abilities more equivalent. Instead of the 3.x approach of feats being +1 to jacking off on a tuesday and spells being "delete target encounter type", surely there exists a midpoint at which both are fun to play.
Don't try to put low fantasy fighters and high fantasy wizards in the game as present them both as player options, basically.

>>85055913 mentions Spheres, which is a good step towards that. The world-fucking wizard abilities and the animu martial skills are both put behind 'advanced talents' that the GM must explicitly permit. Martial abilities also extend to things like mundane alchemy and leadership and other non-combat applications, which is an important step.
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>>85056460
There is no actual logic to its restriction of one instance of a Maneuver before refresh. Over in Bladecraft (on MinMaxForum), the reason you can't spam the same effect is that it *directly* models a Soul Caliber-like stance situation, where you can't chain them freely because it takes time to take back on the required stance to start back up the same move, so you're supposed to use other moves that leave you in the appropriate stance for the first one.

Repeating things endlessly lets you have the same abilities turn into strategic impact *because* you can spam them. If you have things stopping you from spamming fast movement for as long as your Stamina holds out, then you're going to need some other specific rule to give a good ultramarathon pace to be *at all* competing with Teleport, or possibly even just Mount if it's bad enough.

Yes, your combat routine being nearly static gets boring, but people *like* straightforward mechanics. They *want* to be doing about the same thing 1-20, but the game demands *some* change in kind. Having this be emergent from change in scale is the nearest compromise capable of coping with the Wizard casting Gate to pinpoint teleport you to the Devil of the week.
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>>85056770
Feats should only augment the class not be a class feature. Besides, feats and spells are not nearly as comparable because feats can't be swapped out on a whim like spells can.
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>>85056807
*laffs in Chameleon*

Though I feel it important to note that you don't need to change up your toolbox if appropriate use of it can impact about as many situations as the caster's personal repertoire. And if the switchup with spells deals with *everything*, then that's grounds for a nerf, at least in party-based games.

It's the reason AD&D Wizards had a chance to be *unable* to learn spells until they raised their Intelligence, because it *locked them out* of doing something.
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>>85056770
honestly I should've mentioned leadership and warleader abilities right out of the gate, it really places the fighty lads in the front line in a more sensible way
although it can require careful management as-is to avoid fucking the balance the idea of a higher level fighter becoming a captain type over time makes a lot of sense in principle

> Don't try to put low fantasy fighters and high fantasy wizards in the game as present them both as player options, basically.
this, they should both be from the same genre
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>>85056797
>There is no actual logic to its restriction of one instance of a Maneuver before refresh
"It's better for gameplay and prevents combat from turning into spamming a single option." All the logic it needs.
>Yes, your combat routine being nearly static gets boring
And that's bad.
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>>85056807
I'm saying that they should be comparable, if they're each the core feature of "fighting man" or "magic man".
Feats should be actual feats of strength or skill, like being able to wrestle and ogre to the ground or hold your breath for long enough to kill Grendel underwater or whatever.

On the same token, wizards should have smaller, thematic repertoires of spells. I don't have a problem with "the teleportation wizard" being able to cross continents in a matter of minutes, if that's his thing, but any wizard being able to do so, essentially for free, is sort of the root of the quadratic wizard problem.
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>>85056881
>"It's better for gameplay and prevents combat from turning into spamming a single option." All the logic it needs
Based
>>
malazan book of the fallen does it
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>>85056797
>There is no actual logic to its restriction of one instance of a Maneuver before refresh
There's no need to apply "actual logic" to game mechanics. That's how you end up with HP meat points controversy.
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>>85056875
This would require the DM to not be a cuck who allows anything and everything to be used simply because its there and to allow "builds" like it's some kind of video game. Regardless, if the AD&D systems were still relevant we would still be using them several editions later. I still argue that casters should be forced to use mechanics that everyone else has to so having or using spells that make use of other stats would be start or make the mental/social stats more integral for spell casters so t hey don't have to dump everything into Int and only int

>>85056900
I don't think you can make a feat that makes you into beowulf but having a solid chassis of class skills that can be augmented and not forcing certain classes to stay in a particular lane would help. Why should the barbarian be a stupid wall of meat and not an eloquent speaker and thinker who can rip your head from your shoulders. Kharn is a good example because he's the epitome of a barbarian and can still talk and act normally when he's not killing everything.
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>>85056881
...*You, personally* not liking monotonous combat does not erase the legions of Fighter players in 5e. Even if they pretty much all take Battlemaster or Eldritch Knight, that's still quite a shallow and fixed set of options compared to 3.5 Warblades.

And again, allowing intense repetition allows for answering the *actual* problem that ToB didn't, the issue of spellcasters having a mountain of strategic nonsense. There's a lot of ways to translate sensible momentary escalations into similar large-scale nonsense by just doing it bigger a lot of times.

Again, you aren't ever getting Shadow Jaunt to compete with Teleport, whereas 5 ft./Stamina fast movement is going to add 5 ft. per point of Stamina you get each round to your ultramarathon pace, which can translate to at least being better than Mount, even if it doesn't catch up to quite the extremity of schedule shenanigans Teleport offers.

>>85056975
Refer to OP itself complaining about the demand for explanations. Fighter-types have a bone-anchor of verisimilitude that casters do not. Kinda why my first point is making it clear what the point where the mundane gets chucked in a pit never to matter again is.

>>85057006
Wizards using only magic is fine, that magic doing *everything* is the problem. This does not require the magic querying their normal-person skills, it simply requires they specialize in some way so they *aren't* picking exactly and only the bits that matter to them.

The model of prerequisites Maneuvers use does well for this. No one-and-done grab-bags, the Wizard needs to *actually study* the specific area of magic to get the good stuff.
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>>85057156
>...*You, personally* not liking monotonous combat does not erase the legions of Fighter players in 5e.
I'm not paid enough to care about the retarded.
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>>85056460
>>85056881
Yet D&D already has the problem of "i full attack" only fighters. How is this different?
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>>85057454
Neither ToB nor 4E had that problem with its Fighters until Essentials fucked them up.
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>>85057466
>A 4urrie
Opinion discarded
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Another aspect to all of this is how the encounters are designed and how the classes should approach the encounter. Why would it be a bad thing for the martial to innately be able to fight a creature that would be immune to mundane damage? I'd argue after a certain point a PC's fighter is far removed from the highest level captain of the guard and should be able to square up against a threat that doesn't rely on a getting a spell caster's second hand gear unless the encounter specifcally demands you have X item for Y encounter and used in Z way which I imagine most DMs don't go out of their way to do unless they are running pre-built encounters.
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>>85022960
Simple, it's easier to level a fighter than a wizard and casting times.

3E took those things away and broke casters.

>>85022991
Magic isn't entirely controllable or an exact science. There should a risk of spell failure causing corruption or the opposite effect.

See Dungeon Crawl Classics.
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>>85057853
solid points - the fighter should absolutely be able to fight threats that are on-level for the party to be fighting
I've been thinking of messing with immunities and resistances so that enemies don't ignore effects entirely unless they're from lower levels and players can similarly just... stop caring about low level enemies unless part of a mob
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>>85057890
Alternatively, just stretch out *both* and keep them leveling at the same pace. Also, OSR still had caster superiority, there were just *some* things holding the Wizards back from no-questions-asked reshaping of the world and they *needed* the Martials to deal with enemies.

Additionally, things done for the sake of distinction and balance should not be *random* screwovers unless there is *heavy* thematic reasoning for it. What you suggest there is the domain of Horror, not High Fantasy (super) Heroes as is the subject of the thread.
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The ideal philosophy of the martial classes and spell caster is that the magic is a force multiplier while the martial is a linear number that needs to be scaled to get good. The nerds give the jocks tech to fuck shit up with.
The traditional philosophy? Newbs play martial classes and they're meant to be easy, those with system mastery play wizards.

The former ideal never works out because people want varying skill levels for those with various degrees of system mastery. You need something for your little brother and casual friends.
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>>85057915
A high level threat having the ability to resist damage is fine but to be completely immune should be used sparingly and have a way to be removed that doesn't necessitate needing a spellcaster in every instance.

That said, I imagined where Fighter could have special manuevers where they can momentarily remove resistance where it makes sense.

Imagine a manuever where you just stab something so fucking hard you overcome the resistance to piercing damage either by extremly accurate strike in a specific point or just poking it real fucking hard. A high end augment of the ability would be to make the vulnerability persist for a little bit or something.
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>>85047742
The thing is, Fighter's at high levels aren't meant to be fighting mundanely, but are supposed to be using magical ITEMS for their supernatural feats, not themselves.

The purpose of a fighter at high levels isn't that he can evoke magic on his own, but that he's specifically the BEST at utilizing magical weapons/armor/ect. in a fight: A wizard may be needed to provide everything for him, but he's important because his skills allow him to use those supernatural items in a way better than anyone else.
In 1st edition for example fighters were supposed to be the only ones who'd get magical swords or the like as a matter of course.

Think of it this way: Tony stark isn't good just because he has the armor, he's good because he's the BEST at using that armor too, if you give powered armor to other people they won't be able to pull off the stunts he does with it: Same thing is meant to apply to fighters.

Specifically here, have magical gear have requirements to properly utilize them or gain their loyalty: Like an intelligent magical sword that requires a bleach like mental journey where the fighter must defeat it in a mundane sword fight before it will submit to him as being worthy of using it and its abilities, to explain why a wizard or bard can't just pick it up and use it like he can: it yields only to the worthy. Or the like.
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>>85058328
The difference is that a Fighter without his magical gear is complete shit while Tony Stark can at least try to do something. I don't like my martials being 90% gear.
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>>85058397
>The difference is that a Fighter without his magical gear is complete shit while Tony Stark can at least try to do something.

A king needs his kingdom, as the subjects need their ruler's commands to prosper. Neither is an island unto itself.
A fighter may be hampered without gear, but that's the point of the monk class in contrast to the fighter: The monk is meant to be the wuxia class you want, the one who isn't reliant on gear while likewise not being able to utilize gear effectively like the fighter.
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>>85058424
Monk is even worse than the Fighter when both of them are stuck with mundane items.
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>>85058424
Fuck that. The Fighter is not Iron Man. He can't go "oh shit nigga stole my magic items", build a new but lesser set of magic items out of whatever he can scrounge up, then beat the shit out of the guy who stole his suit with experience. Give a level 1 Fighter a level 20 Fighter's gear set and he'll beat a gearless level 20 Fighter's ass. There is literally nothing that would convince me to accept that.
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>>85058427
Monk is a badly designed class, but he's meant to be the "Uses inborn magical abilities to fight" melee archetype. His entire appeal from the start (At least until 4th and fifth edition fleshed him out more) was meant to be automatically powering up without items.

His tier aside, he's what you're looking for if you want a class that doesn't need gear to evoke magical fighting. Or, another example, the classes from book of nine swords who use Kung fu magical fighting. (though that's no longer applicable since we've moved on past 3rd).

Fighter has always been meant as a muggle utilizing gear as his role; his class isn't meant to do otherwise in the same way a barbarian is mean to rage.
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>>85058328
>>85058424
Saying they're "gear-dependent" has the two problems that *making* the gear is entirely on the spellcasters, and that them being the best at using it is just "hit slightly harder" or "hit more times per round", not "can do Weird Shit with it that leaves people making it puzzled".

Tony Stark is not good because he's the best at using his armor. He's good because he *made that shit from scratch*, the first model being in a cave with a box of scraps. He doesn't have just the armor, he becomes a one-man military superpower off automating everything involved in and needed by that armor.

In fact, a huge part of why the Wizard in question is so utterly bullshit is that *he* can be an island quite well. He can make what little equipment concerns him, he can research his own spells, he can *literally* live in a pocket-dimension he's blocked all access from short of *gods* and still raze cities with the supernatural legion of his choosing.

>>85058496
The entire point of the thread is "How do we get the Fighter archetype competing with the God-Wizards of 3.5?" Being *downstream* from them by relying on the gear they make is not ever going to work for that. If the "Fighter" is to be gear-dependent, then they need to go from Conan to Batman to Iron Man.
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A more apt comparison would be Captain America because he is the most basic bitch fighter of the group aside from maybe Black Widow who doesn't have the benefit of super-human strength.

He can't make his own gear and has to otherwise rely entirely upon his physical strength to deal with enemies and it isn't until he's given Mjonir along with his typical Vibranium shield that he's able to fight Thanos who wields a shitty double bladed sword only when he feels like it and can otherwise punch down anyone he feels like.
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>>85057915
Maybe a modification of a swarm where lower level enemies collectively act as a single enemy for the purposes of actions.(i.e. A mob of grunts use their action to push you away with your spears but with your attack you cut down 4 of the 20 strong mob with your attack)

This way low level mobs are never useless and can still threaten high level PCs.
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>>85022960
Though I generally prefer more ritualistic or unreliable magic, you can elevate martials.
They can jump further, move faster, hold their breath longer, breach through walls, climb smooth surfaces, hold back hordes of enemies and trip giants, perceive incredibly minute details, react with incredible speed, intimidate and inspire armies.
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There are so many ways to address this issue.

Add danger to casting and casting actually requires some roles, like Warhammer fantasy roleplay.

Make spells cost mana or power points.

Make spellcasters choose from limited disciplines so they only have answers to certain problems, like Shadow of the Demon Lord.

Or, as noted, let fighters have demi-god level powers or eastern Kung Fu master cultivated Qi stuff.
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>>85022960
That's Deflect/Snatch Arrows, a third level monk in 3.5 can do exactly what's in this gif.
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>>85022991
>The question is how would it differ from magic, mechanically?
Passive abilities, rather than active, that use no resource and can be used as many times per day or per encounter as the player wants, and none of it is magic, all Ex, no Sp or Su.
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>>85023647
>These no system to let GMs ajucate this.
Deflect Arrows feat
Snatch Arrows feat
3.5 has covered this from the very beginning, those are PHB feats.
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>>85060512
>There are so many ways to address this issue.
And only one is correct. Let classes that use physical prowess but lack spellcasting ignore the limits of realism. Let the barbarian kick down castle gates, let the fighter disarm an enemy so hard he sends the weapon flying into the face of another enemy. Hit a cave wall with your hammer to cause it to collapse, throw a tree like a spear at a dragon, reflexes fast enough to intercept attacks not aimed at you, during someone else's turn. And all of it P A S S I V E, not active, the character just IS that strong, IS that fast, at all times, even in their sleep, and none of it is magic or even supernatural, it's just how they are. A properly designed D&D fighter should be able to wrestle a lava elemental, naked, and subdue it in a full nelson, because he is stronger and tougher than the 15 foot tall monster made of flaming rocks. He should be able to shear off hydra heads with a headlock, punch a stone block out of a wall so hard it kills the guy on the other side, and his HP is not some pussy-ass "abstracted" shit, it's MEAT POINTS, he literally gets impaled by a spear as thick as his leg and keeps going.
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>>85060512
One thing I've read about older editions is that spellcasters wanted to really conserve their spells, because each spell was prepared by spending hours equal to the spell level.

Lower level spells were more affordable to cast, as a day of downtime will let you prepare a bunch of 1st and 2nd level spells, but a anything above a 5th level spell would take a whole day just for that spell.

Actually making spellcasting components matter would help. Making classes with spellbooks actually have to learn spells rather than the modern "you learn X spells on level up" could make their spells more like an earnt thing.
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>>85061193
Modern editions try to be like that as well, but a lot of DMs just ignore how the game is supposed to work. They don't make casters worry about spell components, they don't have enough encounters per day for spell slots to be an issue, in 5e they allow the party to take a long rest whenever they want without interruptions, and these players get it in their heads that this is the intended default for how casters are supposed to work.
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>>85061210
>They don't make casters worry about spell components
This hasn't been how the game is supposed to work for 22 years.
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>>85029199
Why didn't Legolas climb up every Mumakil in Return of the King to kill them instead of only doing it once?
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>>85028922
You're looking for the Exalted 3e combat system
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>>85057999
this is also a cool way to do it
for me, since this is most relevant to my 5e game I'm going to avoid bolting extra stuff on to a system I mostly play because others do though
>>85060440
this is basically how I've been doing it with the swarm being able to tank way more damage than individual creatures if the PCs are only on-level rather than way higher and the possibility of the swarm breaking and running away from each other if the PCs hit them with fear or some such
in certain areas encounter focus will be intended to be on not letting them form swarms which is a whole other challenge
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>>85022960
I had the EXACT same thought re: Bollywood vs Western movies the other day while watching RRR.
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>>85061426
And the game's gotten worse with every edition so what does that tell you?
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>>85065604
Wait, are you saying that 5e is *actively* worse than 4e and Basic D&D is better than AD&D?
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>>85066001
Yes, I'm saying 5e is worse than 4e. 4e was shit, it was mechanically good but boring as fuck. 5e is neither or those things.
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>>85066001
>Basic D&D is better than AD&D
This is fact.
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>>85066001
Yes both of those are true. B/X and BECMI are better than either iteration of AD&D and 4e is definitely best of the WotC editions.
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>>85066001
Both of these are true.
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>>85066001
Not him but both of those are absolutely true. 4E at its worst is better than 5E at its best.
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>>85022960
It’s not about power, it’s about versatility. Fighters need more versatility to be quadratic, and not just in battles.

A powerful mage can cast explosions, summon demons, produce water out of their hat, resurrect the dead, shrink in size, teleport, curse enemies and create a lair with servants 8n a pocket dimension.

What can a powerful fighter do, scare their enemies with their mere presence? That’s okay, they still cannot make a wall into mud to get through while putting an illusion to pretend they are a dreaded ghost going through said wall.

So I think truly quadratic fighters should not only do stuff like punching the ground and sending rocks flying towards their foes or jumping on raindrops, they should also do stuff not related to the battlefield in order to be quadratic.
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>>85038547
The problem is that WotC removed most of the limitations on wizards and spellcasters. Learning spells? You get 2 free spells per level, and additional spells are cheap (relatively speaking, that is). Spells per day? Have some more! Get hit while casting? You no longer automatically lose the spell, you just have to make a concentration check. Etc.
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>>85023221
>>85025702
>>85025735
looks like the usual tumblr university student shit flooding the market right now
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>>85025735
Topright isn't that bad
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I only allow 2 classes - warrior and mage. Mage has access to cleric and wiz spells and now has to heal and buff not just attack thus paradoxically limited them a bit. They only get 5 asi advances and no feats/metamagic or anything other than just casting.

Warriors get 7 asi increases and bonuses at every level - something like this

Level Prof bonus Features
1 +2 Weapon mastery (+1 damage)
2 +2 Ability score increase
3 +2 Superior defense (+1 AC)
4 +2 Ability score increase
5 +3 Extra attacks (2)
6 +3 Improved critical (19)
7 +3 Ability score increase
8 +3 Weapon mastery (+2 damage)
9 +4 Extra saving throw prof (cons or dex)
10 +4 Ability score increase
11 +4 Superior defense (+2 AC)
12 +4 Extra attacks (3)
13 +5 Weapon mastery (+4 damage)
14 +5 Ability score increase
15 +5 Improved critical (18)
16 +5 Extra saving throw prof (wis or cha)
17 +6 Ability score increase
18 +6 Extra attacks (4)
19 +6 Superior defense (+3 AC)
20 +6 Weapon mastery (+6 damage)

So at high levels they crit on 18+, have 4 attacks and +6 damage. Also an extra 2 saving throw profs, +3 ac etc. Combined with a more liberal use of magic resistances can balance things out at higher levels.
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>>85074110
also warriors has these abilities from lvl 1 -

Abilities-

Charge: as a bonus action you can move an extra 15ft towards an enemy. If you reach melee combat you have adv for that round.

Disengage: you can use a bonus action to move out of melee combat without incurring attacks of opportunity.

Goading attack: if you hit an enemy in melee combat you can use a bonus action to give them dis on attacking anyone but you until your next round if they fail a wis saving throw (DC 15).

Shield block: you can use a reaction to give adv on any effects causing you to roll a dex saving throw. Must be using a shield.

Sweeping strike: if you kill an enemy in melee you can use a bonus action to roll 1 attack against another enemy within melee range.
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>I had this thought while watching a bolywood film recently. Western watchers looking at a bollywood film might ask "why can their heroes do such ridiculous things with no explanation?". I think we have it backwards. They may look at our movies and say "why do you need to explain why a hero does superhuman things, he's a hero so he just does".
I wouldn't be surprised if there's some cultural explanation for it that they just expect you to take for granted.
I mean it was the same for wuxia. When something like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon got popular, people were confused and mocked the idea of people being able to jump over buildings and momentarily float in the air. Because no westoid knew much about how chi and control of it is a big standard part of the genre and lore. Same with stuff like hadokens and energy blasts in Dragonball or Street Fighter.
Meanwhile no one is surprised that Harry Potter is full of people riding flying brooms, because we all get it, they're witches, that's just what they do. We all know who Merlin is so we're not confused when they bring him up randomly.
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>>85061723
Thats the one. I fucking loved the dance off and using a motorcycle as a club.
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>>85060486
I try and do this stuff with mighty deeds in DCC. I play two warriors who are brothers and its definitely fun to have one launch the other over a wall into a sea of enemies with no regard for personal safety. Ive been intentionally aggressive, trying to get one killed so the other can become my main character, and despite facechecking everything thats thrown at them they've managed to survive. Playing martials can be fun but you need to play a game that allows some flexibility on how you interact with the world during combat and you need to be really excited about constantly leaping into the fray with no plans for if the fight goes south other than buy enough time for your team mates to escape.
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>>85028441
>Meanwhile fighters can ... punch things hard.
Fighters can, first of all, fight, which is a lot more than punching.
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>>85061723
Bahubali campaign when
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>>85073527
That's why the answer is to let physical classes have superhuman traits, and provide guidelines for what those traits can do, then leave it up to the players how to apply them. That gives Fighters a dynamic pool of abilities they can use, limited only by their maximum strength, and the creativity of the player.
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>>85074207
MCU. Your opinion is out dated.
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>>85073703
Anon, tumblr university was a thing ten years ago.
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>>85086990
Superhero fiction is based on a different set of logic that people retroactively assume to eastern inspired fiction.
Superman flying had the logic of gravity differences between Earth and Krypton, not qigong, energy blasts in superhero fiction have a science fiction basis which I applied to DBZ early on
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>>85085691
>tfw no gf to kill my enemies with through a bollywood dance



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