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Why do casters hate it so much?
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>>85021035
Why do you ask loaded questions?
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>>85021035
casters?
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>>85021038
In a DnD thread on /v/ people were talking about the best edition, which turned into a martials vs casters flame war and it was brought up
So I was wondering what is it about this book that casting classes seem to despise so greatly
>>
>>85021056
People who play classes that primarily cast spells
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>>85021073
I know what casters are.
as far as I know, everyone hate that book, not only casters
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>>85021128
what are you talking about? none of my groups hated it
yes the lore behind it was silly and very weeb, but we quickly realized the warblade was just a more fun fighter to play

nothing about power mind you, yes it's stronger, but that didn't matter much, but it just gave you a ton of options to choose from in combat compared to most full BaB melee
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>>85021061
>>
Martial players hate it because one player using the book means they have to use it as well. Casters hate it because it means they can't effortlessly flex on martials
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>>85021035
because it levels the playing field
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>>85021191
not exactly, a well built full caster is still leagues ahead in versatility
but at least the ToB classes could output more damage in melee than a self-buffing cleric which was a win
>>
>>85021035
Because it's reasonably balanced
>>
There's two answers:
>They abide by the same retarded logic 5e inherited that Linear Fighters/Quadratic Wizards was a good thing
>They're genuinely upset about the book's fluff and how it essentially usurped all existing martial content
Either way people bitching about it ensured that they were loud enough they were heard last when 4e came along and drowned the discourse.
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>>85021035
>why do players that primarily play casters hate a book that makes them no longer unreasonably superior to martials in every way

Because they're metagaming faggots who spank it to the idea of wizard supremacy. Anyone who fits the mold of 'primarily plays casters' but who doesn't feel this way probably just enjoys the idea of being a wizard, instead of being a metagame-obsessed whiterooming faggot who must have the most optimal build of all builds and then wave it over his fellow players like a giant fake dick stuck on the end of his real, tiny dick.
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Because they are the same faggots who act like the fighter can't have anything cool because then they'd be just another wizard, as they play !a wizard number 5 and have 20 pages of spells at their disposal.
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>>85021061
In that case, it's probably because they feel threatened by martials having any sort of "magic," as they feel that it's their exclusive domain. But I'm sure that everyone on /v/ is some sort of munchkin, so of course they want to be the strongest and bestest character at the table.
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>>85021627
As much as people make fun of it, it really was. Didn't they originally plan on having Maneuvers be base Fighter in 5e? They should have stuck with that.
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>>85021035
If you rebranded this shit as greek fantasy style superheros, people probably would have eaten it up at the time. But it came out during a time when anime was getting really popular primarily with a crowd that was considered undesirable.

Nowadays anime fans might still sometimes be the butt of the joke, but nowadays I think a lot more people associate anime with dudebro streamers and Egirls.

I truly believe if they drop ToB for 5.5 and play up the anime angle like Pathfinder did, it'll be extremely well received. Maybe not by /tg/ wizards, but but the majority of brainless 5e players.
>>
>>85021128
Weaboo Fightan Magic is pretty tongue in cheek because the Fighter solution to quadratic growth was vaguely asian looking powers. That doesnb't mean people don't use it.
>>
>>85022899
who is this cutey?
>>
Casters don’t hate it, martialfags hate it because instead of letting them play good martials, it introduces more animu magic swordsman garbage into the game, making martials even worse since now it’s not just gandalf shitting on them, they get mogged by goku too
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>>85026607
Just play a warblade or a crusader, you maroon.
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>>85021035
Because it makes martials useful, and the whole POINT of playing a caster is to lord your superiority and usefulness over the useless martial players. If martials can be useful too, what's even the point?
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>>85026607
How the fuck is a Martial supposed to compete *without* over-the-top nonsense? The casters are too *comprehensively* unconstrained by reality by level 9 at the *highest*. Because that's when the Cleric can go to Heaven *in person* to chat with your dead grandfather.

This is why e6 exists, because 4th level spells are throwing too much of Normal Person Things in the bin for the Martial model 3.5 uses to keep up *at all*.
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>>85029023
Say what you will, but AD&D had the right idea with fighters and stuff like exceptional strength and constitution bonuses. No, they weren’t balanced and they got outclassed by casters eventually, but instead of building on top of the idea that fighters and casters are fundamentally different archetypes and letting them use their physical prowess etc in a way not available to nerds who wiggle their fingers to make things explode, turn invisible etc, they compounded the issue by homogenising stats, thus making fighters weaker, while making casters more powerful at every level and their power infinitely more available from the start.
Probably doesn’t help that most people seem to eschew material components.
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>>85021035
because they usually have zero swords and at most two or three.
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>>85026607
Only people who didn't try playing with the supplement think that, because of how fun and balanced it is they quickly change their tune within 1-3 games.
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>>85021158
>>85021176
>>85021191
>>85021627
>>85022607
>>85022708
>>85022899
>>85023150
>>85029023
cringe
>>85026607
based
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>>85021061
The caster vs marital thing is a recent evolution.
Historically and in similar discussions the conflict was more about it being to anime for most peoples tastes which it is and that aspect of the discussion has multiple augments throughout dnd discussion since the beginning of the western anime boom. And I agree its to much like anime for the western inspire fantasy mindset that these games were born from.
As for this variant of the discussion its generally tied up in the concept that Casters have way more utility than Martials in general and to balance these martials must be made more verstile.
This argument is also tied up in the 4e debates which as an edition has very aggressive fans on account to being critically panned in its time but on review has some solid ideas and some that are controversial in nature but nevertheless validate 4e fans who in turn become obnoxious spergs about it who should just shut the fuck up and deal with it and just accept that people don't like their game.(kind of like the Dark Souls 2 posters on /v/)

This is a slight derail but for this conflict to me the way to solve the problem is not to buff martials into gods or make them also spellcasters like in TBoNS or 4e but to make martial combat reliable and casters less so. If a caster can still cast fly but there is always a chance for some kind of issue or blowback (and if certain actions can be taken to lower the risk like reagents, sacrifices, or rituals) while the fighter climbing the cliff takes longer but will not risk causing the party to blow up it would be better.
That way casters can still do their cool shit like cause earthquakes and such but a ripped dued with training can accomplish many of the more menial tasks with minimal risk or resource use.
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>>85031975
Mass repliers need to be chained to a ford truck's trailer hitch by the neck and driven down the backroads until the muffled screams audible inside of the cab stop.
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>>85032181
mad because he called you cringe and didn't even take the time to insult you personally?
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>>85032152
>The caster vs marital thing is a recent evolution.
only because in 3.5 the fact that casters were so overwhelmingly stronger than classes without spells was simply acknowledged as a fact of life. When the Druid's animal companion tiger can make more attacks for more damage with more accuracy on each one of them than the two-weapon fighting rogue or fighter, or when the wizard can literally summon a demon or angel with a greatsword that has better feats and abilities for martial combat than the party's fighter does, you don't have "caster vs martial" arguing like you see today.
In 5e, there are enough newfags and enough people new to tabletop games in general that have never played any other edition or any other game, and so you see situations where they get into arguments trying to say "WELL, THE WIZARD CAN SEND ENEMIES TO BURN TO DEATH IN THE PLANE OF FIRE OR TELEPORT A DEMON INTO THE HALLS OF HEAVEN WHERE HE GETS DOGPILED BY 30 SOLARS, BUT A FIGHTER CAN ATTACK THREE TIMES A TURN SO IT'S OKAY!"

"martials vs casters" implies something approaching a fair fight, and that's simply untrue. You either have spells or you don't, there's no reason to play a fighter/rogue/monk/barbarian party over a paladin/ranger/cleric/wizard one (just like in 3.5/pf1e)
>>
>>85021056
People with pointy hats and wands. I happen to be one. Any day now the succubus will appear.
>>
It made martial classes marginally stronger, elevating them to high T4 low T3 class.

Casters can't take it when their T1 throne can hear people making sound in the other room.
>>
>>85021035
But casters liked it, since it closed some of the gap in utility, combat power, and combat variety between them and 3.5

If anyone bitched about it, it was martialfags who thought that maneuvers and stances betrayed the essence of a martial class.
>>
>>85032953
This. Casterfags loved it because it made martial not automatically Timmy-tier classes. Martial just saw a mechanic slightly more convoluted than roll to hit and pissed themselves.
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>>85032848
This was true even in 1e and 2e. Especially since they advance faster than fighters from 6-10. No Concentration hurts them somewhat, but the things that have always been good are still good.
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>>85032848
casting classes have always been kind of busted, it's just that they aren't as infuriatingly frail at the first few levels in the newer games.
If anything my main criticism of 5e is that being a caster (or anything really) is kind of boring, and as a GM you can't really have any really jank ass monsters to throw at your players too as it's been so casualfied that you cant' do anything that threatens your players without outright cheating.
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>>85033000
It's weird, since it's not like there weren't gishes before. The Paladin and Ranger are (poor) ones. The Psychic Warrior came ~1 year into 3.5's run.
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>>85031975
„Im a chad for beeing garbage“
No youre a drain on the party.
Also a useful idiot for casterfags
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>>85021035
I've actually seen a lot more martialfags complain about it more than casterfags, likely because it doesn't concern casterfags at all. And martialfags often dislike it because it turns them into magical beings with poorly rationalized abilities.

I've always liked the idea, but I also think that there needs to be a more clear demarchation between the various "power levels", and that the logic behind the powers need to be explained better from a non-magic-fueled perspective, or else all it does is shatter the core appeal of many martials and turn them all into Marvel-style wuxia heroes.
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>>85033061
Most campaigns die on the grapevine before Paladins and rangers get spells. Psychic Warrior is psionic, which is another "you eove it or hate" type thing .
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>>85032152
The caster martial debate always misses one key aspect
>fights good
Is a different class from
>opens locks and sneaks
Is a different class from
>shoot arrow and us good with animals
Is a different class from
>fights good by getting very angry
While
>makes shields
>opens locks
>turhs invisible
>flies
>explodes things with fireball
>creates items
>stops time
>banishes people
>summons hordes of monsters
>communicates with the dead
Us one class.

Casters need to be waaaaay more broken down in their specializations.
Why is „wizard“ a class. A necromancer is a wizard, so is a pyromancer.
And dont tell me about muh magic schools they barely restrict you.
In an ideal world martials would get maneuvers and wizards would get broken into 8 different classes. And thrn it would be fine.
Its a fucking team game.
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>>85032848
The problem is class identiy.
Theres just no real options other than paladin if you dont want to be a nerd wearing a dress.
Pathfinder at least „solves“ the problem by having a gorillion caster classes that are themed around melee combat.
>>
>>85032953
>>85033000
>>85033061
Because what martial players want is to be a guy with just a sword and shield who knows how to swing it good and they want that to be viable.
No jumps to the moon, no shattering stone with your fists, no weeb bullshit.
Just a nice standard dude who is at the highest from a knightly background who with wit, willpower, and skill born from lived battle experience and at best some magic items to supplement it can challenge the dragon and stand a chance.
Its not much on the surface but in order to make it viable you got to lower the power level on everything else which should be fine unless your a weeb who deserves to get their skull caved in on those grounds.
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>>85032848
>only because in 3.5 the fact that casters were so overwhelmingly stronger than classes without spells was simply acknowledged as a fact of life
This is simply untrue. For most of 3.X's run, it was barely discussed outside of whiteroom theorycrafting autism memes online, in specific subset areas/forums, and was rarely a "problem" in any game played in earnest, with all the natural limitations that come with a living world.

I can't comment on 5e because I don't give a shit.
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>>85021035
not my problem
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>>85033165
The assumption was always that you'd play to type, not cherry-pick and min/max in an environment where you had access to everything all at once and infinite rest at all times everywhere.
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>>85033226
Speak for yourself nigger.
I look towards character like cu chullain, Rolans, Heracles, sigfried, achilles and beowulf for inspiration.
Diverting rivers? Transforming into a hulking beast? Killing a dragon by throwung trees at hin and lighting him on fire? Beeing literally invincible safe for one caveat?
Yeah thats high level martials for me.
Ii bet you never played a game past level five.
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>>85033267
Theyve had long enaugh to figure out „playing to type“ doesnt happen.
And if thats true: why doesnt the fighter get animal companion and sneak attack and rage and is trusted to „play to type „
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>>85026607
This
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>>85033151
>magical beings
Most manuvers are Ex though. Blatantly supernatural/disciplines maneuvers were the exception.
>>85033226
Conan himself was way more than a guy "who just knew how to sword good" and so were most pulp heroes. If John Carter was written in 2022, people would think it was written as self insert overpowered MC isekai bullshit with cheat powers
>>
Reminder that martialfags don't want or deserve anything good. Let them wallow in mediocrity.
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>>85033391
Good point on consn desu. Dude keeps outsmarting people, beeing a leader of men and dunking on wizards.
Using him as an example of „just low level fighter, just ignore high level play“ is missing the point.
Conan goes up against high level wizards and wins
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>>85032181
Why a Ford specifically?
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>>85033299
Yes which are the domain of demigods and inspirational myth something to aspire to but never actually be. If you do reach that point then there is no struggle anymore shit is lame and loses al tension and anyone who wants to is a self inserter who has to rely on games for their sense of self worth.
>>85033391
I have read through all of early and most of the middle period Conan stories and at best he is just a really athletic dude with a cunning mind and fine tended senses/instincts having do to his savage background. So unless at some point between his adventures in the north and him becoming king he gets an anime type powerup I feel like you and I have very different ideas on what :Guy who swords good entails"
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>>85033459
Conan is fucking terrified of wizards and survives by the skin of his teeth most of the time in REH stories, and he casually genocides giants and giant adjacents. A single Conan wizard is basically an undisputed regional god, D&D basically lowers both fighters and wizards down a tier compared to Conan.
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>>85033231
believe me, plenty of people in "games played in earnest" realized how retarded it was for the 9th level caster Druid with 3/4 BAB and good fort and will saves who could also access his entire spell list every day and cast in armor to ALSO have a fucking animal companion with more strength than the fighter (a level 7 druid's tiger has 23 strength) and more attacks than the fighter (it's got claw/claw/bite/rake natural attacks), fighter has 2 iteratives only with one at -5, AND the tiger has POUNCE which allows it to move and full attack the same turn and is the single strongest ability for any melee martial to have because without it you're forced to only make one attack regardless of how many iteratives you have, because full attacking is normally a full round action. Most martial optimization in 3.pf revolves around finding ways to pounce or full attack and move some other way, the tiger gets it for free as a single class ability of the druid who ALSO had wildshape and ALSO has 9th level spellcasting and just as good BAB as the rogue or monk.

You didn't need to be a whiteroom theorycrafter to go "huh that seems a little unfair" when your druid's animal companion was a better martial than you were playing as a fighter, nevermind all the bullshit druids could do with wildshape, natural spell, and their extensive spell list
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>>85033493
Inspirational myth is what high level characters are. Either thst or you gotts merf a level 20 wizard down to level 6 powerlevel.
And honestly how are those stories boring? Achilles, Siegfried, Roland and Cu Chullain die by the end of their stories. They still got tough battles to fight
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>>85033493
>cunning mind and fine survival skills
Thats what a Tome of Battle character is. Literally just don't use Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Devoted Spirit.
>With a moment’s thought, you instantly perceive the deadliest place to strike your enemy as you study her defenses, note gaps in her armor, and read subtle but important clues in how she carries herself or maintains her fighting stance
What is weeb or anime about this?
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>>85033267
The most of the busted/OP magic is in Core, and does not require stretching semantics to be busted (like Pun-Pun). They are busted in their plain-text, as-intended reading.

>>85033226
>Just a nice standard dude who is at the highest from a knightly background who with wit, willpower, and skill born from lived battle experience and at best some magic items to supplement it can challenge the dragon and stand a chance.
Martialfags in 3e had that. It was called Power Attack. You then spent the next decade bitching about how boring it was to have the only real decisions you got to make in combat be how much BAB you put into your PA, or if you're tripping with your spiked chain.

WOTC says "okay, geez, here's some stuff to give you options besides power attacking and trip attempts, and explicitly magical stuff like the Duskblade doesn't float your boat either, we'll make it mundane." They put out ToB, and then you bitch up a storm, after spending the last near-decade bitching about how WOTC is neglecting martials and how martials have boring class design.
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>>85033591
And high level play is a boring slog fest where all of the most interesting challenges were overcome by like Lv10 man and the higher you go the more the game devolves into "I shoot you with my ray gun" "Nuh huh I have a force shield.
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>>85033533
Most problems with OP casters in 3.pf can be fixed with DM fiat. Druid wants a tiger companion? We're not in the jungle bitch, fuck off. Here's a chipmunk.
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>>85033657
weren’t badgers or wolverines little furry death machines?
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>>85033591
it's unironically a special snowflake self insert mentality for these kind of people. They want to have their cake and eat it too, they want to be a normal completely mundane average guy with a sword who is simultaneously capable of going toe to toe with dragons and demon lords and giants, and they want to be able to win without using any superhuman feats of strength or "anime shit" when doing so.
It's literally the "I'm just an average japanese high school student" equivalent of tabletop gaming. BY DEFINITION being able to stand against a dragon or demon lord or whatever means your character is ridiculously exceptional and superhuman, you can't jerk off the "mundane" fantasy when you're regularly dunking on immortals. It's unironically more of a self insert power fantasy to want to be the guy who defeats a dragon with zero magical powers, zero divine blessings, zero anything other than "me sword gud" and still somehow survive direct hits from breath weapons and six claw, bite, wing, and tail attacks than it is to play something like a druid who turns into a fucking wooly mammoth before stomping on the dragon's face. If you can accomplish what the other people need magic to do without magic, you're still fucking superman by comparison.

If any regular retard with a crossbow could kill dragons without being special in some way like these mudcore faggots fantasize about, then the world and gamewouldn't need heroes and adventurers to begin with and LE LOCAL LORD with his men in full harness would just go kill all the dragons themselves.
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>>85033657
And when they inevitably go to the jungle just to get one?
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>>85033657
I suppose most "issues" can be fixed if you ignore the rules and shit on everyone.
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>>85033692
The Wolf is the Cadillac of PHB animal companions.
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>>85033692
yes, a first level druid can get a badger which enters a Barbarian rage when damaged in combat with three attacks
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>>85028550
>what's even the point?
To do wizard shit. Make magical chimeras, fuck with the timestream, create an army of golems to show the jocks whose boss. Hmm. The last one might be to lord it over martials.
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>>85033645
You can always not play high level. But thsts not an argument for there beeing this hard an imbalance
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>>85033608
Because its not about making the martials stronger its about bringing everything else down to their level for a more grounded game that lets them use more options that are physical.
>>85033601
Because it makes it into a special called out power it when instead all in needs to be is bonuses to called shots, saving throws, and perception. No special techniques or any of that shit just engaging with the body and mind and making a strike.
Done make them named powers just let the basic 1 on 1 martial combat be satisfying and then go from there.
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>>85033533
>>85033657
Nah, the problems are actually fixed by making casters track and pay for spell components, scrolls, wands etc.
The tiger is a better fighter than the actual fighter if the fighter doesn't have some magical sword and magical armor and strength enhancing ring or whatever
Spellcasting by RAW is actually fairly expensive, especially at higher levels when you need diamond dust and other pricey components every time you want to cast certain spells. By actually enforcing this, the DM takes the caster's budget down a little and thus in comparison gives the martials a larger budget
With the right magic items, a martial will be able to at least be a better martial than most casters
Also in low levels martials are king, but that doesn't really matter
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>>85031975
My brother is Christ, this cope is awful
You've been brainwashed into accepting caster superiority
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>>85033694
Because the dragon is meant o be a lesser threat also.
The Myth of Saint George is the ideal way of handling it.
George himself takes multiple attempts to kill the dragon relying on external aid (God, Poison resistant fruit, ect) Its not him alone but he is the acting force and eventually overcomes.
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>>85033771
>the problems are actually fixed by making casters track and pay for spell components, scrolls, wands etc.
this doesn't apply to divine casters in 3.5 which is why cleric and druid are so oppressive, on top of having good fort and will saves (which are the best two saves to have) and being wisdom-based classes (when will saves are the ones you most want to pass and spot/listen and noticing enemies is super important to avoid being surprised) and they also get armor and shields and have 3/4 BAB which is just as good as the rogue and monk do.
>Spellcasting by RAW is actually fairly expensive, especially at higher levels when you need diamond dust and other pricey components every time you want to cast certain spells
the cost of spell components is trivial relative to your wealth by level by the time you can actually cast them.
>Also in low levels martials are king, but that doesn't really matter
no, in low levels the druid is king because his animal companion makes 3 attacks while the fighter is still making 1 and nobody has any iteratives, when he gets Wildshape he turns into a fucking better martial than the fighter because he's wildshaping into any medium-sized animal in the game which includes a bunch of shit with 4+ attacks. A 5th level druid can shapeshift into something with 17 strength, 2 claws, a bite, a tail attack, poison on hit, and pounce WHILE still being able to cast all his spells while wildshaped thanks to Natural Spell

wizard theorycrafting is mostly whiteroom bullshit but CoDZilla is totally true and both classes are oppressive from level 1 onwards unless you deliberately sandbag every step of the way
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>>85033892
Cleric and Druids who fight in melee are honorary martials
Wizards and other classes who hide in the back are just casterfag nerds
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>>85033771
>Nah, the problems are actually fixed by making casters track and pay for spell components, scrolls, wands etc.
If casters are getting anywhere near WBL adventuring, these are non-issues. I guess "give full-casters an X-thousand GP handicap" could work, but this is firmly in whiteroom shit land since most tables split loot evenly.
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>>85033771
Spell Components being a balancing mechanism is pure cope, no DM drags the party into a Wizard solo session and sabotages the party's material progression so that they can gate power from SOME spellcasters behind mild inconvenience.
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>>85033753
Only if you want a rules lite game.
Sometimes spelled out powers unlock more tactical depth rathr than less
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>>85033226
>jumping to the moon
>shattering stone with your fists
>weeb bullshit
Imagine never reading any mythology ever.
Lancelot literally stopped Camelot from being destroyed by being a pretty french bisexual boyknight.
Zhang Fei killed hundreds by screaming so loud they died of panic.
Beowulf fighting a dragon single handedly and doing a bunch of wild shit in his stories.
Thor wrestling death to standstill and drinking almost all the oceans dry.
Heracles in general.
Go read some fucking traditional fantasy and myth.
>>
>>85033997
what session?
>I want to get x
>you find some for y gold / there isn’t any
sprinkle the better components here and there naturally so they can use their shit, if they go all out and rest after every encounter, they can fuck off
>>
>>85033771
This is such a stupid cope
„Lets turn every second session into a caster shopping session! Thatll show those wizards.“
Itll work just aswell as „we should balance casters with spell slots, surely they would never be so audacious as making the party rest everytime they run out“
Not to mention the ridiculous bookkeeping strain on the DM
>>
>>85033493
>domain of demigods
>Beowulf
>Roland
>Sigurd
>Demigods
Imagine being retarded.
>>
>>85034022
>what session?
>>I want to get x
>>there isn’t any

"then where can I get some?"
>>
>>85034021
>lancelot
not a power of any sort, fuck off
>ching chong
ding dong
>beowulf
100% physical, nothing anime about it
>thor
corssdressing tranny
>hercules
a literal janitor
>>
>>85034055
>roll a lore check
>yeah, there isn’t any anywhere near
>>
>>85033701
And why would a tiger from the jungle join some squirrel-tending dweeb druid from a boreal forest?
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>>85021035
Do you think wizards and sorcerers exist in real life?
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>>85034065
>just develop the game yourself
Thats always what it comes down to innit?
>>
>>85034061
>100% physical, nothing anime about it
What differentiates 100% physical from anime?
>>
>>85034121
So what about the shit Sigurd, Roland and Lancelot did, all non-demigod strictly martials?
Besides.
Merlin is only a wizard because he's a demi-god, or rather demi-devil yet he's the basis for all non-demigod wizards. Why does that get to count but not using demigod martials for non-demigod martials?
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>>85034216
if it’s conceivable that a fantastically strong human can do it, it’s not anime
eg wrestling a lion, forcing open a giant snake’s mouth, etc
anything involving mystical inner energy, pew pew rays, being sonic the hedgehog, localised bullshit not congruent with general ability (eg being able to jump 10m vertically but not extending that leg power and bone density to other facets of physical ability, being able to cut an arrow in flight with a sword but not having that speed, reaction time and precision in normal combat, etc) and so on
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>>85034341
Beowulf swims for several days straight in raging storms and then wrestles sea monsters
Thats not a thing any human could ever do in real life
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>>85034180
You don't need to develop the game yourself, you sperg. You just need to play the game as provided. Saying "No, you can't be X, because Y" or making the universe around the players make sense is not "developing the game yourself". The entire function of the GM is to moderate and adjudicate, for fucks sake.

>>85034250
>but whatabout
Don't fucking care. What some character in some other story did is completely irrelevant to the appeal of given archetypes in another. It's like saying that because Beowulf fought a dragon, Lancelot should be able to or can be assumed to. It's fucking stupid.

That being said, those latter mentions are very different from the literal demigods and actual gods. Sigurd, Roland, and Lancelot were all exceptional, but in most stories that aren't doing what today would be called weebshit. Even fighting a dragon single-handedly isn't the same as turning invisible by your own power and teleporting behind opponents, or do flying backflips.
>muh Merlin
>Why does X get to count??
It fucking doesn't. That's the fucking point. I was illustrating a point by your own logic, the point being that it's horseshit.
>>
>>85021035
We love it, it lets martials have fun in our game.
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>>85034403
>BUT MUH BEOWULF?!??
Are you actually autistic and genuinely retarded? Legitimate question at this point.
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>>85034403
>fantastical
>real life
read, nigger
>>
>>85033078
>>85033789
congrats you're the virgin in the meme
>>
>>85033771
>The tiger is a better fighter than the actual fighter if the fighter doesn't have some magical sword and magical armor and strength enhancing ring or whatever
You know the tiger can get versions of all of those and the Druid can supply them by themself, right?
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>>85035506
Sure but it costs an absurd amount of money
You want armor for your tiger? That's barding for a large creature so 4 times regular cost, plus it's an exotic creature so another times 2. Your mundane plate barding is now 12000 gold. You want an amulet for your tiger? Sure, it needs to be resized to fit a large creature, times 4 cost to create it but maybe the DM is generous and just makes you pay 2 times normal price for it to be refitted
So yes it's an option if you have a ton of gold, but if you have a ton of gold then so does the fighter and he doesn't have to split his gold two ways or pay a ton of extra gold for one of those two
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>>85035708
No, non-humanoid body type is 2x and Large is 2x, so Full Plate is 6,000 GP, and that's an utterly retarded choice for *numerous* reasons. You'd actually toss on a Chain Shirt, which is only 800 GP.

And magic enhancement does not care about size, it's going to be 2,000 for a +1 whether you're talking Fine or Medium or Colossal.

Furthermore, a Druid relying on Wild Shape *literally can't* use a lot of items without extensive resource allocation, so spending it on the Animal Companion is usually better return-on-investment. Seriously, they are fine with *just* a Wisdom enhancer and *maybe* a Constitution bump.

Which is nothing compared to what the Fighter is putting into their sword that the Druid can replace with one to three spells per fight.
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>>85033471
Not worthy of a better brand.
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>>85035708
>Sure but it costs an absurd amount of money
No it doesn't. Not really. Keep in mind. The druid is probably not buying weapons for himself and amulet of mighty fists are more efficient if the companion has multiple attacks than a big fancy weapon.

Like a big issue 3.X monks had was that their "buff my unarmed" treasure was priced for the druid benefiting from it.
>Lancelot were all exceptional, but in most stories that aren't doing what today would be called weebshit.
Lancelot beat the shit of an armed warriors/a giant with a fucking stick, sometimes disguised as a nobody. And I forgot which one but someone on king arthurs court straight up had fucking laser eyes I'm pretty sure and another knight in one of the stories could straight up turn fucking invisible.
>Roland
>blows on a horn so fucking hard to kill sevefral dudes and bring down a temple
>Sigurd
>I won a bet with a dwarf and got a super special cheat items and married a valkyrie!?
>or my douche bag uncle tried to kill me with a dragon, but drakn it's blood and gained the [STEEL SKIN] skill and went on adventures!
>>
>>85026607
I agree. Martial players are usually the ones to complain about ToB because they think it turns martials into casters (it does)
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>>85036492
>it does
Except it doesn't. Having a resource mechanic is not the same as spellcasting.
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>>85035708
That's why you use leather, studded leather, or one of the more exotic light armor materials. Plate is a mistake.
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>>85036492
Spellcasting does not mean discrete consumable abilities.
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>>85034410
Youd think if its a well documented problem maybe it ISNT what the game provides.
I hate fucking armchair DMs like you acting like youre hot shit.
>>
>>85034431
>muh direct inspiration for a class why is it even relevant
I dunno, genious
>>
>>85034433
>fantastical
>in my fantasy playing pretend game
Oh no
>>85034473
>Heh,now that ive picked out the perfect basedjack for you, youre finished kid
Nothing personell
>>
>>85036274
Sorry I play Pathfinder which at least attempts balance, I forgot 3.5 barely even makes you spend anything on your giant killer pets
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>>85034341
Cu Chulainn could turn into a giant hulked out monster version of himself, never missed a spearthrust to the heart, was nigh-invulnerable, super strong, super fast, could throw giant stone pillars at age 7, killed giant lake monsters with his bare hands, could literally jump onto the tips of tiny darts while they were in mid air being thrown at him, ignored being stabbed through the chest with a sword, fucked 51 women at once, is able to boil water or melt snow just by getting angry, and could turn himself invisible
The only time I know of that he ever got an anime adaptation was the anime Fate, where he is significantly nerfed to fit into anime
>>
>>85034403
People can swim. An exceptional dude who manages to do a thing within human capabilities, but longer than what is normal, is exactly the sort of thing most martials want. People want to survive getting crushed by a dragon's tail, but they want to be seriously fucked up by it. They WANT to be able to jump a 10m long chasm, but barely catch themselves on the edge. They WANT to survive jumping off 3 story building into an enemy below, but be shook from the impact. The problem is when you go from inconceivable to blatantly absurd is when martials roll their eyes.
>>
>>85037685
In early to mid game sure
By late-mid game I want to be Guts from Berserk, and by level 20 I want to be Hercules or >>85037605
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>>85037685
And they wanna do all that at level 15 too? And still be on the same level of performance as self-mutating perfect being wannabes, diabolic sorcerers bending reality, barbarian-kings the size of a hill giant and monks who run up the walls?
Bullshit
You either accept that everyone has to be on roughly the same page, or you stop whining that your totally mundane regular human being underperforms in a highly fantastical system made for highly fantastical settings.
Or, you know
>have you tried not playing dnd
and pick up a mundane, grounded and realistic game system that actually supports what you are describing
>>
>>85021035

Have you played in a table with other people using that book? Not you but other people.

I have, and the uptake on the difficulty of combat was huge. Casters generally have a huge gap of what they could be doing and what they are really doing in play. BoNS classes generally have a small gap of what they could be doing versus what they are doing in play.

Every time that I played at table with other PCs using BoNS they were the MVP save for once. I was playing a barbarian and the other guy was doing a charge build...in a high level Planescape thus monsters were big and have reach. His build traded AC for extra damage on the charge, up to his BAB for 4 times that in damage.

All of that was the player being dum and from a non BoNS prestige class that he would of been much better not take.
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>>85037770
Yeah then you either accept that most martials drop off in the linear vs quadratic mindset, invest in magic items to supplement your martial prowess, or you seek to bring all the other classes inline so they are all on that same general level of power like what many people in this thread and the other one about a similar threads have brought up.
This was much less of a problem in the early days because getting to be a high level wizard was a reward for keeping one alive through the early levels.
This also made more sense when you understand that the original intention for DnD was to have a clubs worth of players and DM's running multiple campaigns in the same world with each player having multiple PC's for different adventures based on who showed up that day. Which would solve this problem if not explicitly would solve it implicitly with the needs required by a stat rolling system and many PCs.
But I digress https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBsxmHs070
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>>85037885
>Not you but other people.
I have, twice, one being right now
One was a midlevel planescape campaign (we got to like level 11 ) and it was fine, I was overperforming the BoNSfag friend in damabe but maybe not exactly DPR since I was a slow moving powerhouse while he had lotsa mobility, but I also had some out of combat utility
Currently in a low-ish level campaign, playing a totemist and another friend is playing a BoNS-equivalent from PF1, I can't say his performance is really out of the loop either. It's good, but doesn't feel overpowered
I'd play BoNS myself but I like my freakshit too much, or don't wanna "repeat" and take another BoNS martial when someone in group is already playing one
>BoNS classes generally have a small gap of what they could be doing versus what they are doing in play.
I'd say that for switching stances and regaining maneuvers there might've been bit more difficult prerequisites, at times it feels like a total freebie and non-factor, but I haven't had the chance to play the classes myself so I can't quite elaborate on that
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>>85037961
>This was much less of a problem in the early days because getting to be a high level wizard was a reward for keeping one alive through the early levels.
wow im gonna play a meat shield to carry my butt buddy so he can carry me through lategame shit
and that might sound fun in actuality since it involves a degree of teamwork but maybe only the first couple of times
it really is not an interesting basis for a class balance focus, in fact it sounds terrible as a baseline with replayability taken in mind
>>
>>85036490
at no point in any of that however were his eyes the size of apples and his mouth a small line and his nose the faintest hash, nor did colort line go a'flyin' just before he shouted "now you've unleashed me! hirogon flame spirt lvl4 go now!", nor again did the pavement beneath his feat crumble into deep furrows as this unleashed power forced him bodily backwards, nor i say NOR, sir! NOR did he in general, mistake cringe for cool, and shove not just the whole jar but the whole delivery truck of jars of cringe directly up his ass and dial the fag factor to 90teen.
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>>85031045
>doesn’t help that most people seem to eschew material components

IT's a bad mechanic and adds another level of resource management on top of another system of resource management that is more immediate and important yo your caster (spell slots). Doesn't help that you can bypass any component without a price with an Arcane focus, which why wouldn't you use one?

It'd probably be better if you had to dip into your other resources to make the cost of higher level spells heavier and more mechanically apparent, such as sacrificing health, or taking on a level exhaustion, etc. Glass up that cannon a bit more.
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>>85038443
It's meant to lower caster funds and options so that A casters can't just sleep after every battle and B casters have less money then martials so martials can make up the power gap a bit with more magic items
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>>85037885
Yes. I played a Sorceror and I absolutely destroyed the party's Crusader in contribution even at low levels. I wasn't even particularly trying hard.
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>>85038457

Yeah and no one remembers to do it because it's not an immediate consequence, and mist of the time, by how the Adventures are written, you're usually either making enough money from the quests or from finding loot (loot that might have those 50GP worth of Sapphires you need anyway) that it's not much of a hinderance.

Unless your DM is letting you long rest after every encounter, having to conserve your spell slots is a bigger deterrent towards your caster just unloading their entire spellbook in battle/casting knock or other utility spells to make your Rogue useless. Unless that player is really spiteful and doesn't mind hindering the party to stunt on other classes by doing what they do, but magic.
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>>85036797
It's not hot shit, anon. It's been like this since 3.0. 3.0 was formulated with a lot of assumptions carried over from AD&D, and it was aimed at an existing audience with pre-existing behaviors and assumptions and modes of play. The intent was never for autists to run the game like an uncritical reality simulator by the numbers. They tried to lean into this later by tryong to make things more clear, but the formulaic rules-writing that was born as an intended fix to autistic readings ended up making it much, much worse, ultimately birthing a generation of brainlets such as yourself that follow things slavishly whether it makes sense or not, with no regard for adjudicating narrative-mechanical interactions or upholding the principles of verisimilitude that acts as a natural counter to potential abuse - which in turn rewards degenerate gameplay behavior in players.

You and your ilk brought this on yourselves, chasing ghosts, fearing boogeymen, tilting at windmills.
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>>85038540
>wordswordswords
I accept your concession
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>>85038540
Shut up, retard.
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>>85033165
>Its a fucking team game.
LOL
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>>85037531
If PF attempts "muh balance", it fziled spectacularly. It tends to lean even farther into powerwanking. I especially hate the narrative implications of infinite cantrips and how magic works for any class having been seemingly decided by the roll of a dice.
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>>85038548
>>85038550
>Unironic autist is also literally illiterate *and* a too-obvious samefag.
Predictable but still sad.
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>>85038593
>samefag
>post timers
Shut up, retard.
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>>85038679
The fact that you're autistic enough to use two devices just to sperg out just adds to the sadness of how pathetic you are.
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>>85038749
I already accepted your concession, you don't need to keep conceding
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>>85038777
>no u
Pitiful.
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>>85038512
>how the Adventures are written
anon…
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>>85021035
casterfags hate good game systems like 4e in favor of unbalanced literal shit which is why most of them are 3aboos or even worse that that, dare i say it, 5e trannies
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>>85038841
>good game systems
>like 4e
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>>85037531
Ah, yes, PF, where they set out to balance the classes by making even more caster classes that are even better than the regular ones.
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>>85038906
Yeah but martials get access to the archetype system and stamina feats and variant multiclassing
Stamina feats especially help them a lot
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>>85033694
They hated him because he told the truth.
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>>85037770
>And they wanna do all that at level 15 too?
Yes, but at that point, magic items should be the thing that pushes the martials over the edge into demi-humans. The problem with that is this turns character building/agency into a game of, "DM, may I?" where players now have to rely on the DM to provide said items, and it's completely out of the players hands what is provided in the first place. If there was a system built in for martials to create their own magic items codified in the class features where the player knew for certain they would get it, it'd go a long way to making martials more appealing.
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>>85038923
quite a few DM's ban them though
>>
Hah hah. Post TSR-type D&D sure is fucking stupid.
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>>85038803

Or how the DMG was written, whatever. The treasure generation in the base game is going to keep you pretty wealthy is the point, especially at higher levels, not to mention, most tables I've played at, players tend to pool resources to make sure everyone is properly equipped unless someone is playing a Bard in a Bardly way, then they're a drain on the party resources. Either way, the cost for the spells aren't really a detriment to your spellcasters unless your DM is stingy and actually tracks what you and your party have in terms of treasure. A thing most DMs don't do because they're already running the rest of the game.
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>>85037531
...You mean the third-party revision that decided having your own actual HP pool attached to statblock taking was the problem to nerf into the ground while leaving Conjuration's bullshit 90% untouched?

When we were talking about Druids specifically in the context of "Wild Shape is outright bullshit and makes you better at in-your-face combat than most Fighters, *and* they get a Fighter-superior pet on top"?

In a thread dedicated to one of the last official sourcebooks *for 3.5* who's 3rd-party ripoff for PF1e was *drastically more powerful* because it had eyes on coming to blows with the full casters?
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>>85021035
Casters don't hate it, grognards do. It gave fantastic options for the gish or martial fantasy but literal incels like this>>85026607
hate it because it's '''''''anime'''''''
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>>85037531
>Pathfinder... attempts balance
There are multiple archetypes in the game that straight up give full casters full martial class features and VMC makes it easier to poach features at the cost of feats that most spellcasters don't need to do their job. If anything it's worse because so many of them don't have to wait to start shitting on the martials at their own job.
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>>85021035
>Why do casters hate it so much?
>d&d is created and get famous
>its the first rpg so (since its famous) you have all those extreme amount of rpg players with different point of view of how a rpg should be, playing the exact same rpg
>after some amount of time playing some players discover some stuff they think are flaws, while discover some rules they think are really awesome
>because they have very different views on what a rpg should be (despise playing the exact same rpg), what some guy think is a good idea wont be considered a good idea by the other player, what some consider a shitty idea will be considered a good idea by other rpg player
>new system is made based at this enviroment, and create a mess of a rpg system.
>many of those players quickly jump into the new system, expecting fixes to what they think are flaws
>because the players have very different opinions on what rpg should be (despise playing the same exact system), what is a flaw to some is a fix to another, and what is a fix to another is a flaw to someone. So the system CAN'T be fixed.
>all those extreme amount of players quickly jumping to this new system, bring new (to rpg) players to the new d&d system
>this make the game have an extreme amount of rpg players with different point of view of how a rpg should be, playing the exact same rpg
>because they have very different views on what a rpg should be (despise playing the exact same rpg), what some guy think is a good idea wont be considered a good idea by the other player, what some consider a shitty idea will be considered a good idea by other rpg
>new system is made based at this enviroment, and create a mess of a rpg system. No one knows what the system/d&d is suposed to be, because it was created based on a mess.
>the story continue ad infinitum
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>>85046033
I have seen this copypasta a lot and I have the solution to it.
All you need to do is let all the different TTRPG players be allowed to kill each other. And then push them to do so. Then by the end one group remains victorious and all other ideals on how a game should be player are purged.
Then you restructure the game into a mystery cult and allow those who deviate from its confines to be killed.
Then you will have one game and everyone who likes that game will play it and those who kind of like it and try and change it will be killed.
Really for all cultural problem people should just be allowed to kill each other and the side that's strongest can make the rules.
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>>85034019
Literally no. You do have a valid argument that it makes the game far more complicated when not everyone will be able to effectively use those rules, but spelled out ability runs risk of creating a thematic clash.

Conan, for example, when he gets a good stab in, it’s usually from a combination of luck and muscle memory. The stories often point out how he gets out of situations through either cunning (cheating) or luck.
>>
i am entitled to pet tiger and free healthcare.
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>>85047511
But are you entitled to fuck the tiger
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>>85021128
No? OSR purists hate the book, as well as caster supremacists, but most players don't actively hate it.
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>>85036492
It doesn't.
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>>85023306
I would love to see the 5e playtest material that had this, apparently it was removed from the final product because WotC wanted Fighter to be a basic entry class for beginners, not something actually intended to be viable at high levels. They didn't exactly accomplish that, but they sure tried.
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>>85022607
ToB is directly responsible for 4e
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>>85023150
Martials shouldn't have any kind of magic, they should be able to be superhuman without it.
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>>85033471
To make sure this faggot gets dragged over the worst roads for the longest time.
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>>85026457
Penthesilea from the F/GO Agartha manga.
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>>85033000
Casters liked it because it made martials more similar to casters, because if every playable class is a caster, then casters win, they removed non-magic classes from the game.
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>>85033000
>lol martials are dumb
Fuck you
>>
>>85033165
That's why I tell wizard players they're limited to one school, and universal spells only. Sorcerers can pick from any school.
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>>85033226
Stop trying to play Batman in a fucking fantasy game, retard. FUCK BATMAN, and fuck you.
>no weeb bullshit
The fact you think something that means weeb, says a lot for your pathetically limited imagination.
>>
>>85033299
Mah negro
>>
>>85033591
>Achilles, Siegfried,
Those two were both blessed to be magically invulnerable to attacks except those directed at a specific weak point. They can't really be called mundane when their greatness stems from a supernatural boon.
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>>85033694
>It's literally the "I'm just an average japanese high school student" equivalent of tabletop gaming
It's Batman. They want to play Batman.
>>
>>85037685
>An exceptional dude who manages to do a thing within human capabilities, but longer than what is normal, is exactly the sort of thing most martials want.
Fuck right off, I want martials to be super human, not exceptional human. I just also don't want ANY kind of magic to be required to do it.
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>>85047843
>Noooo your knight or warrior or whatever can't be supernatural in a supernatural setting you have to be a dude with a sword and nothing else and that's all you are allowed to be!!!!
>>
>>85047920
Then don't take the Shadow or Flaming whatsit schools.

done. Diamond Mind and Iron Heart maneuvers are exactly what you're looking for.
>>
>>85047808
>>85047867
Not Batman but Conan.
Except in Conan stories the big otherworldly being could still be taken down by a dude with good reflexes and strength and the wizards were all nerds who could with a days prep summon a demon but could still get their heads caved in.
Like there is a Conan story where he and a group of pirates who are all just normal guys end up on an island inhabited by a race of giant figures who were distinctly nonhuman with pitch black skin and had weird magic shit. And yet with a coordinated assaults and the loss of half the crew Conan and the pirates were able to succeed against inhuman monsters twice their size.
They want the monsters to bleed when cut with a sword and by having that limit make just being a guy experienced in combat viable.
Magic that is slow but but earthshattering and fighters that are quick and deadly but limited.
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>>85039167
Not really relevant to the game itself. A mechanic exists whether an individual GM uses it or not.
>>
>>85047920
Yeah
Gish aren't martials because they cast spells
Rangers aren't martials because they have a bit of druid magic
Paladins aren't martials because they have divine magic
A fighter with a bunch of UMD holding a wand isn't a martial because he can cast that one spell
A high elf warrior NPC with no other abilities except his racial cantrip isn't a martial because he can use a single pathetic bit of magic
>>
>>85041119
TSR D&D is fucking tripe
>>
>>85032152
I like how forbidden lands does magic for a reason. The necessity of willpower points for sorcerers/druids and the risk of the spell just straight up sending your character to hell on a bad enough roll makes them a bit more balanced.
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>>85033708

Might introduce other new issues, but
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>>85047977
No, Conan was superhuman. Yes, even in the original stories, which I have read. But he's also not relevant to D&D, because in his world a wizard is not a fucking player class to begin with. Conan as a high level character would require a system where magic is almost completely unavailable to the party.
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>>85047974
Still wrong. A character should be able to become strong enough to kick down a castle gate, not using magic, and not using some special maneuver, he should just BE that strong, at all times, passively. Superhuman PASSIVE abilities should be standard, not ACTIVE.
>>
>>85048076
No.
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>>85048038
Conan was superhuman but not on a level beyond what a human body can do without breaking suspension of disbelief look up what people can accomplish with an adrenaline rush or people swimming across the English channel for instance people can pull off Conan level feats if the conditions are right.
As for the DnD point your kind of right DnD is almost universally considered to be a bad game especially on /tg/ so this thread has been 50% people talking about DnD 30% about the general of martial v caster concept and alternate solutions and 20% shitposting and salt.
>>
>>85047679
Which is why it was my favorite book from 3.5
>>
>>85048083
Yes
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>>85047977
Considering that fighterfags generally want to be the normal person who somehow manages to not be dead weight when anything that is even capable of making his superhuman teammates even notice that they've been hit would be capable of reducing him to paste without even trying I'd say Batman is a much better analogy.
>>
>>85034078
Do you think Siberian Tigers live in a tropical jungle?
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>>85034341
>being able to cut an arrow in flight with a sword but not having that speed, reaction time and precision in normal combat, etc
That fat guy from the slow-no channel went 5 for 5 cutting arrows with a sword on his first try. It’s actually less difficult than hitting a 90mph pitch with a baseball bat, at least for arrows that are being fired past you at an ally.
>>
>>85049907
>hitting a smaller, faster target with a smaller cross section area object is easier than hitting a larger, slower object with a larger cross section area object
thanks, very insightful
>>
>>85050005
also
>inb4 but shortbow
longbow arrows are the slowest due to to weight, lighter arrows can hit 300fps
that’s 0.1 second to reach a target 30 feet away
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>>85038841
>4e
>A good system
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>>85036506
>>85036730
>>85047660
Cope. You can see martialfags making that argument this very thread >>85048076
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Did everyone forget that dnd is supposed to be about shared fun with friends?
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>>85050159
this
just don’t be friends with faggots and you won’t have casters at the table anyway, problem solved
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But warriorbros... I thought going from a string bean who could barely survive a few skirmishes to a ultra super deluxe man who could lift huge boulders and chew pieces of steel like bubblegum was the entire point...

I get the whole mundane bit which I also like, but isn't that within the context is you lacking any magical capabilities?
Why would you just wanna stay a mundane normal guy who just reaches the realistic physical human peak and not go beyond to super strength territories? That's just lame and gay.
>>
>>85048120
Canon also does magic.
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>>85033493
>Yes which are the domain of demigods and inspirational myth something to aspire to but never actually be.

Uh-huh but it's okay for casters to have reality-warping powers the gods in real myth didn't have right.
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>>85048076
Shut up retard.
>>
>>85050138
>martialfags
Yeah… obviously
>>
>>85047977
People who use conan as an example don’t understand that magic in consns unicerse is way less precise and way less impactful than high levsl dnd
>>
>>85047843
How is this different from a magic item.
Sigurd literally bathed in the fat of a dragon untill it became like a second skin. Its basically magic armor looted off a dragon
>>
>>85047478
Yeah. Thats exactly how 4e did it. They were called martial exploits. They literally represented a narrative currency so you could decide that now the situation for something like this would arise.
>>
Honestly I hate classic western fantasy tropes and want a character who evokes themes seen in Final Fantasy and related JRPGs, so ToB is awesome.
>>
>>85050138
You tried to argue with my post with another one of my posts. You absolute retard.
>>
>>85050572
Because they want to play Fantasy Batman and they're stupid.
>>
>>85052498
Fuck you, bitch
>>
>>85052831
Ooooh, subtle.
>>
>>85021035
Combat options beyond "Roll 1d20 BAB/5 times" scare and confuse the D&Drone.
>>
>>85026607
Good, if you aren't a caster or a Weaboo fightan magic class you're an NPC. Go home and be a family man with your shitty bonus feats.
>>
>>85053466
>Durrr tome of battle doesn't make martials casters by just giving them a resource to expend
>reeeeeeeeeee active abilities are not martial!

This is you
>>
>>85033078
>a drain on the party.
>in an easy mode powerwank RPG
Fucking lol.
>>
>>85021128
>everyone hates that book
>it's brother, the Tome of War in Pathfinder is so well liked and trod that people are demanding that shit gets a 2e replacement stat

hmm, ok
>>
>>85033226
This is pretending like all maneuvers are "anime super power bullshit", where most of them are "cool flourish that lets you do a weapon trick and then get interesting benefits like a cleave, wind bullets or bleeding damage bonuses"
>>
>>85033151
Most abilities aren't Marvel tier or even Wuxia Tier, some of them are literally just "smash the fucking ground hard" or "do a cool cleave with your sword"
>>
>>85033860
That's like ending every game at level 5, lmao
>>
>>85037961
>he thinks this is unironic good game balance despite it being fixed by letting me just play a Battlemaster and have fun

wake up nigga, lmao
>>
>>85032848
Every time I see shit about 3.5 casters posted I become more convinced that nobody bothered to actually play by the rules except for the martials.

Material costs alone should restrict how much a caster is casting. And rare components should require entire sessions of dangerous RP to gather, if they're available at all.

Casting times are not all "one standard action" and concentration checks are required.

PHB and maybe SC for spell selection. That's it.

Casters as written are balanced, if you make them follow the rules. But caster players don't want to follow rules, they want to do whatever they want and will ruin the experience until they're pandered to or driven away.
>>
>>85056635
Most spells don't have material costs, I don't care about your opinion on rare components, more than enough spells are standard actions, concentration checks are only required in special situations and are incredibly easy to render irrelevant with the simple action of getting yourself the ability to take 10 on them, and spellcasters are fucked enough even with only the PHB. Stop wasting my time with your retarded horseshit.
>>
>>85056379
>Plays a class that relies on a special pool of "superiority dice"
>Relies on Maneuvers for fun gameplay when the same results in the past could be gotten by Called Shots, Grapples, and Charisma Rolls
>Can only disarm an opponent X amount of times per day due to a "Maneuver" and denies that its castershit.
DnDrones have a cucked mentality to rely on a fucking dice pool when reworking aspects that have already existed in their game before into a solid mechanical base for melee combat would solve this problem much better for anyone with 2 braincells to rub together.
You not a brainlet are you anon?
>>
>>85055666
Those two things are not in conflict, retard. Having expendable resources in a 9-tiered structure is not what makes a class a caster. And I didn't say active abilities are "nor martial," I said the ideal physical character doesn't need magic and their power should be expressed through passive abilities rather than active. Your pathetic need for a "gotcha" moment is draining your IQ.
>>
>>85056673
Called shots are fucking dogshit in D&D and you will not be able to make it good the way D&D is built.
>>
>>85022708
Lots of truth here.
>>85026607
And here.

DnD hasn't really meaningfully evolved since the 70s. It's very much a classic, pulp fantasy, dungeon crawler, and attempts to make it anything more than that, whether in narrative or mechanics, tend to have ill-fated, and often outright cringe results, with a few note-worthy exceptions, in the form of subversion (Dark Sun) or taking what everyone love/hates about DnD and turning it up to 11 (Eberron)

5E really knocked it out of the park from the Player's Handbook in giving both core types of people who gravitate towards fighters the type of character they want to play "I roll to attack, all turn, every turn" got the Champion, "500IQ I read Sun Tzu annually" got Battle Master.

I've always said (and this is something I love about Dark Sun) is wizards *should* absolutely mog the guy with a sword and a can-do attitude, but that power should come with a cost and inherent risk.

Perils of the Warp makes magic better.
>>
>>85056776
No, 5E fucked it up. The Battlemaster is dogshit for anyone who really prefers complex martials because it's kneecapped to make sure it doesn't hurt Champion players' feelings too hard.
>>
>>85021035
>>85021061
It's less casters and more your stereotypical mudcore poster. Being utterly uninformed about anything more deeper in western fantasy than the lord of the rings movies, they see any martial techniques more complicated than smashing a sword into fullplate as the domain of anime power-scaling a-la Naruto or Bleach and is to be treated as weeb cultural subversion.
Ironically, there's more of a claim that anime stole from the Book of Nine Swords than the reverse - if you've ever watched an isekai or fantasy show with "warrior's magic" "martial techniques" etc you're probably familiar with the concept already.
The other major complaint was that it replaced regular martials. Anyone who makes this argument is to be written off as a retard. Of course it replaces fighters and so on, that's the point, because 3.5's pure martials were dogshit and anyone grug brained enough to insist on playing them in an initiator game deserves their mechanical irrelevancy.
>>
>>85034410
>but whatabout
If the basis for non-demigod wizards is demi-god wizards then why can't a combined mythos of demi-god and non-demigod mythical martials be used for the basis of martials?
>It fucking doesn't
Merlin, and to a lesser extent Gandalf, are the archetypical wizards, one is a half-demon demigod and the other is a literal angel.
In the same series as Gandalf we have martials being tossed by their allies and even sliding down stairs on shields.
Demi-god martials like Heracles and Cuchulain should be just as much an example as Sigurd and Zhang Fei. They all did super human shit to various degrees and should be the examples of mid-high to high-ascended level martials.
>>
>>85056672
The accessibility of rare components is his opinion, but everything else he said is right, in spirit if not in specifics. Many DMs ignore the drawbacks of spellcasting, that doesn't change what's actually in the books. You can see several people doing it in this very thread. Also a lot of DMs don't try to stick to how encounters were intended to work in 3.5, where a party is expected to have four meaningful conflicts per day. In the last 3.5 general thread I ended up in an argument with someone who over valued per-day abilities because their DM only did 1-2 fights per day, when the game is designed for at least 4. Fewer per-day fights means the value of spells is grossly exaggerated because there's little need to worry about spell slots, but again, that's not how the game is supposed to work.
>>
>>85031975
I watch anime and read Conan
What does that make me?

oh yeah BASED
>>
>>85034341
>localised bullshit not congruent with general ability
So you're saying Saitama, the main character from One-Punch Man, isn't anime tier since all of his shit is factored in and there is never a stupid localized not congruent ability?
>>
>>85056856
I'm perfectly content with Battle Master. I'd prefer we got more maneuvers more often, but I'm also wary of rules bloat.

Champions are very good at (arguably the best at) walking up to something and chopping it until it dies, as they should be. Battle Masters offer utility and answers to problems more complex than "something needs to die."
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>>85057086
>but everything else he said is right, in spirit if not in specifics.
It isn't. I've played spellcasters in 3.5 and it's easy as fuck even if the DM is a stickler for the rules.
>>
>>85057134
I'm not. I fucking hated BM with a passion for being dumbed down trash. Champions are also mathematically inferior at killing to BM.
>>
>>85056673
>he thinks the Cleave feat in 3.5 gets remotely close to a fucking Maneuver in ToB

Here's a hint, drink fucking bleach
>>
>>85056776
>they made it so only BM get maneuvers

No, you're fucking retarded
>>
>>85057154
>mathematically inferior
True, but champion roll big, big numbers!

>>85057176
Maneuvers are kind of their thing. There's other kits with their own things. Some are more original than others.
>>
>>85057140
Yes, it's still easy, but it's vastly easier when the DM lets you slide on the rules, and again, people in this very thread have been saying keeping track of spell components is "pointless."
>>
>>85057245
Because keeping track of components without a listed cost *is* pointless.
>>
>>85057259
It's not, because it's part of what limits spellcasting. Why do you think not having a listed cost matters?
>>
>>85057268
Arcane focus
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>>85057268
Because the component pouch literally tells you it has any component that can both fit in it and has no listed cost.
>>
>>85057274
That's 5e shit, retard. Check the OP, we're talking about 3.5.
>>
>>85057279
But not in infinite quantities, dipshit.
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>>85057292
>A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.
Shut the fuck up.
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>>85057268
The game wouldn't let you replace it with a single feat if it assumed you were supposed to be autistically tracking them.
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>>85057298
Nothing you said actually disagrees with what I said, dipshit. Why does this bother you so much?

>>85057371
So take the feat so you don't have to worry about it. You two dumbasses are literally making my argument for me.
>casters should break the rules because reasons!
If a non caster wanted to use a feat they never took I bet you'd get all pissy and call it cheating.
>>
>>85057453
>you have to track all of your components even though the game tells you you have all components except for specific ones
Autism.
>>
>>85057458
A component pouch means you're assumed to have what you need, but you are arguing it means you have those things in infinite quantities and never need to replenish it, ever. You are a moron.
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>>85057200
Every wizard has access to the entire Wizard spell list, not every fighter has access to Maneuvers. Every Sorcerer has access to the full metamagic list, not every fighter has access to maneuvers. Every Warlock has access to Eldritch Invocations, every Cleric gets Turn Undead along with their unique spells and Channel Divinities.

Every fighter, and this is the bare minimum, should have superiority dice and ways to interact with said dice, including a basic list of a maneuvers. BM would have a longer list, and champion's unique features would look more like the Monster Hunter UA.
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>>85057481
Its written in such a way to make it a mechanical handwave. If you can't understand that then you don't understand efficiency in getting things going.
Basically if an autist like you asks "hey where did you get bat guano" the response would be "its in my component bag" and then if pressed the DM can point to that description and the game can move on.
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>>85057536
>casters should have more leeway because reasons
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>>85057481
You're assumed to replenish it during downtime. You are autistic.
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>>85057481
do you also keep track of how much weapon oil the fighter has to maintain his sword?
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>>85057673
>Casters should have a mechanical conceit that prevents the game from being the wizards mushroom hunt for multiple sessions.
>>
>>85057716
>>85057745
>>85057759
Look at these casterfags all upset that they might not have their cheat codes available at all times.
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>>85057095
the reason OPM got as popular as it did despite looking like something a kindergartener shat out is precisely because it was a novel concept in manga
if your “argument” is that something existing in anime means it’s typical of anime, you are fucking retarded
>>
>>85058162
Look I'm all for limiting the power of casters but not in ways that slow the game down.
I'm much more on the side of letting them do cool magic but also have to deal with actual risks like spell backfires or getting cursed via failed ritual while spellcasting that can be mitigated greatly via complex actions outside of combat such as sacrifices or rituals and within combat to a less extent by actions like bloodletting.
Instead of forcing the wizard to slow down the session looking for bat shit just let them toss the spell with like a 5 in 20 chance of burning instead which can be lowered to a 1 in 20 chance or something by then cutting themselves and taking 10 damage directly.
>>
>>85050930
Nah.
Magic in the Conan-Verse basically means either hypnotism, alchemy, or making pacts with lovecraftian abominations, and the big guy does none of that shit in any of the R.E. Howard stories.
Can't speak for those by later writers, but during the original canon he never so much considers trying to use magic that isn't conveniently prepackaged into a macguffin.
>>
>>85058244
Only „beeing ridiculously strong“ IS a common anime trope.
Meanwhile cu chullains riastrad is exactly what youd call an „active ability „
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>>85059177
just stop, retard
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>>85033004
in OG D&D wizards actually died if something breathed on them though.

Not, like, a dragon, like a goblin or something.
>>
>>85057292
fucking retard
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm
>A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.
And then you can spend a single feat at first level to get Eschew Materials which does the same thing as a component pouch if for some reason your DM is fucking retarded and has not read the book like you
>A spell cast with Eschew Materials can be cast with no material components. Spells without material components are not affected. Spells with material components with a gp cost of more than 1 gp are not affected. An eschewed spell uses up a spell slot of the spell's normal level.
non-GP cost components have never, ever been a barrier for casting and the GP cost ones are trivial expenses by the level you can cast them, OR it's a "stupid tax" to punish you for dying by making resurrection/reincarnation expensive
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>>85021035
>Why do casters hate it so much?
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>>85057298
>>85059891
Nowhere does it say that it lasts forever, and it also cannot possibly have components for spells you did not know at the time of acquiring it.
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>>85059891
This is your brain on casters. Too autistic to understand basic logic.
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>>85059177
Being rediculously strong is a trope common in all fiction, including ancient myth. Or does your dumb ass thing anime predates Herakles and Sun Wukong?
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>>85058344
No one's saying you have to stop the session while the wizard hunt for components, just that when your caster RUNS OUT then he cannot cast spells that he lacks components for until he gets a chance to restock during off screen downtime, when he is in a situation where restocking would be possible. Road side camp, no. Town, sure. If casters want to have their cheat codes they should deal with ALL the consequences, rather than get them hand waved because casterfags hate being told no, you can't use that spell, because casterfags are petulant children.
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>>85061025
I take Eschew Materials just to dodge retards like you who are completely incapable of intuiting what an item that exists solely to handwave components means.
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>>85031975
That pic is basically just 3.X onward versus B/X
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>>85061445
that doesn’t even affect components that have a gold value
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>>85060599
>a specific sourcebook
>for a specific system
>with a specific complainant group

What, exactly, are the remaining factors that cause it to have no real resolution?
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>>85061445
Look how pissy the casterfag gets when his cheat codes take actual work.
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>>85061445
Why do you think material components should be avoided?
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>>85061445
>Spells with material components with a gp cost of more than 1 gp are not affected
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>>85067209
Because they're unfunny jokes that don't improve the game in any way and forcing shitty component hunts into the game hurts it.
>>85067314
We aren't talking about components with costs.
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>>85068288
Unfunny jokes? That's...a unique take. I would say they improve the game by putting limits on spellcasting, it's grossly inadequate but it's at least something, 3.5 magic was just out of control and needed far more limitations. Personally I houserule prep casters to choose a single school of magic, plus Universal spells, and everything else is forever cut off from them, save through scrolls and wands. This also serves to uplift spontaneous casters.
>>
>>85069391
A copper coin for Detect Thoughts.
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>>85069506
Well you got me there, I don't remember all the components off the top of my head, but I stand by my argument.
>>
>>85037531
That's how it works in pathfinder too, retard. Magical bonus costs are independent of the size of the weapon, armor, or doohickey you're enhancing.
>>
>>85069580
Deflection is a sheet of rubber dipped in glue (to bounce off me and stick to you), a common component for illusion spells is fleece (to pull the woll over someone's eyes, Passwall uses sesame seeds (Open Sesame), and Gust of Wind uses beans (the magical fruit).

They're mostly an excuse for a quick joke, and there's a reason it's all supposed to be abstracted away into the 5gp component pouch (of which you should buy at least two, since eventually someone gets the good idea to sunder it if you only have the one)
>>
>>85068288
>>85069391
>>85069506
>>85069580
>>85070963
Just make components under 1 GP into a universal "ammunition" that costs 1 component per spell level to cast
20 arrows are 1 GP, a components pouch is 5 GP, so balance it like arrows and make it 20 components per GP with a pouch coming with and holding up to 100 universal components
>>
>>85069506
>>85070963
Oh, look, it's the old "they're JUST JOKES!!", as if they can't do more than one thing. If I'm going to come up with 800+ material components, you bet your fucking ass that 90% of them are going to be cheap gags.
>>
>>85071128
I'm actually with you - plenty of them are cute references, like the components of Flesh to Stone being quicklime, Fireball's guano and sulphur being the components for gunpowder, or silk and amber for Lightning Bolt. But the basic idea is that most components are a reference or gag first, and major source of spell scarcity second.
>>
>>85070963
>They're mostly an excuse for a quick joke
No, they're way to stifle spellcaster power. The dumb jokes are secondary.
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>>85071519
They don't do their job then.
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>>85071592
Nobody enforces spell components or mundane arrows
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>>85071616
Even if they were enforced it wouldn't do shit. Actually look at the components on problem spells or just play a fucking divine caster.
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>>85071592
Yes, I already said they're not exactly great at that, but it is why they exist.
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>>85021035
I believe making martials casters too is great then everyone can be a superior caster. This is why 4e is the best edition of DnD as everyone gets to play as a caster.
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>>85021035
I think it's more like martials not liking it because it turns them into casters, and it's a half assed fix at best. Just like everything else D&D ever did to "fix" itself.
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>>85029023
Perhaps accurately portraying how dangerous a fully armored/armed man is in the system like in real life might be sufficient? For some reason D&D's "abstract" combat belittles how dangerous real world Knights and warriors were/are.
>>
>>85073388
A knight is as dangerous to a Spellcaster who can control the power of reality as they would be to a Machine Gun nest.
>>
>>85021035
"Martials" "whine" a lot more about it than "casters" do. And somewhat rightly so. The moniker "Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic" isn't undeserved. One of the core appeals of martials has to do with archetypes, none of which includes shit like teleportation and pulling elemental powers out of nowhere, as well as the rationales as to why you're limited to a number of uses per day if it's supposed to be all physical.
>>
>>85073388
>>85074319
A level 2 human fighter kitted out to be a knight (spirited charge, lance, horse, plate armor, heavy shield) is still a ubercharger that hits for 3d8 + 3 times whatever their damage bonus is on the charge
At that level it's hard to deal more damage than that in one attack
Throw a cavalry regiment at players on an open field if you ever want a TPK
>>
>>85057075
>Merlin, and to a lesser extent Gandalf, are the archetypical wizards, one is a half-demon demigod and the other is a literal angel.
Amusingly enough, on top of that a regular D&D wizard is leagues stronger than either of them.
>>
>>85038512
>Unless your DM is letting you long rest after every encounter, having to conserve your spell slots is a bigger deterrent towards your caster just unloading their entire spellbook in battle
And even that stops being a thing by level 6-7 or so. By then, 90% of the time we needed to rest was because the noncasters were dying and we needed to stop to heal. The only time we were running out of spells is if we were goin through 10-12 encounters between rests, and even that was a bad idea primarily because by the time we were out of spells, the rest of the party was dead.
>>
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I'm going to keep playing tome of battle classes and there is LITERALLY NOTHING you can do about it!
I'm gonna make anime bullshit ninjas all the while you will be coping and seething!
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>>85056776
The playtest Fighter was way better than the Battlemaster.
>>
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Ok so now that we are close to the bump limit what has everyone learned?
I learned that DnD is a bad system for actually utilizing the full extent of physical combat (targeting certain places with your hits, dynamic changing injuries on opponents, comprehensive rules for doing things like disarming someone) thus inherently making any class that relies on physical capabilities lesser and that it is a good system for spellcasters due to the wide amounts of things they can do without breaking the western cultural consensus of what a spellcaster is actually meant to do.
I also learned about how some groups solve this and how that can work for some and not others.
I also recommend to others as a neutral ground to check out Record of the Lodoss War. Its a really good meeting ground of anime and western fantasy it can be really boring at times but watching the first episode of the original show is in my mind the ideal way of doing a DnD style adventure (it is also based off the creators own DnD game so its more authentic).
>>
>>85061445
If you really want to avoid any and all attempts at stopping your magic just play a psion
There's nothing short of decapitation that stops you
And if you keep the head alive somehow a decapitated psion is still 90% operational
>>
>>85064900
there are LOTS of casters in the same system- so it's so wide a berth for who'd have problems with it to varying degrees [from obvious picks like wizards to niche shit like warlocks in 3.5]

The book is also pretty extensive with the manuvers and their organization and type being "Factors" themselves.
>>
>>85079141
I learned that casters should be banned from all tables including anime weeb casters
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>>85079797
Based
>>
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>>85021035
The core of all of this is simple. In respective situations on their own how can the Fighter and the wizard solve a problem with their given abilities?

The Fighter's ability is to fight and the wizard has spells. The wizard can change their abilities out nearly on a whim to tackle most problems if prepared to do so and doesn't have to rely heavily on things like Feats or skills to accomplish this.

The Fighter really only has skills and feats to rely upon. Worst still, when it comes to combat, the fighter's ability to fight is invalidated by enemies who can regularly invalidate their mode of fighting unless they have a magic weapon. One they can't make use or use innately on their own without someone else providing or making one (or buffing their weapons with spells).

The issue was never about damage but one of utility and the fighter being a competent mechanical character on their own, which they are not..



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