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Dead game best game edition

>Previous:
>>84928439

Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game, Warcry, Epic, Warmaster, Underworlds, Aeronautica, Mordheim, Titanicus, Battlefleet Gothic, Man-o-War, Warhammer Quest, and any other GW system and boardgame are welcome.

Please limit MESBG discussion to the games only and take discussion of lore and the books in general to /lit/

There is currently a Kill Team General >>>/tg/ktg. Discussions for the Kill Team should go there.

>We are working on a mega archive with the rulebooks for the boxed and specialist games (don't share).
rebrand<dot>ly/gwsg-repo
>Drop any missing files you might have here:
rebrand<dot>ly/dropofpolish
>Current MESBG rules:
>you know what to put
/folder/yDBmCRRK#kI26Bcw-9vgxOnQICVbpsA
>Old links:
https://pastebin.com/dk8SFxht

Missing anything? Simply request.


>TQ
Post your terrain!!!
>>
Starting to run Isildur in a Last Alliance type list - what situations should I put the Ring on?
>>
>>84987075
Run him solo up front or wait till battleline is formed, put it on before "engaging" and wreck problematic shit. SImple as.
>>
More like dead general best general amirite
>>
MESBG mega updated to include defense of the north pdf. Thanks for the help PDFanon!


>>84987075
any time you'd normally heroic strike or want to cheekily pop through the lines, basically.
with base F6 isildur doesn't need much help killing stuff normally so keeping him on a horse is great for chopping up warriors and a lot of heroes. but if he's going to fight a big enemy hero it's good to throw it on and invisibly kick their teeth in.
the best use of the ring is being sneaky- wait for an enemy hero to charge some of your troops, pop on the ring,
>*teleports behind u"
and chop them to bits. it's incredibly easy to trap them this way, and particularly when two-handing you'll easily cut down pretty much everyone- and there's really nothing they can do about it.
>>
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Reposting this from last thread, hoping for some feedback.
>>
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So what's next for MESBG?

Wehns Khazad-Dum Update?
>>
>>84987449
Balin already tried anon.
>>
>>84987502
I want an updated sourcebook. Gondor got one. Rohan got one. Hobbits got one. Khazad-Dum gets one. It's only fair. New Khazad-Dum heroes. Dwarven Legendary Legions. Gimmie already. :(
>>
>>84987603
It’s gonna be the Fall of Angmar
>>
>>84987835
Fuck and suck my muck.
>>
>>84987952
Yep. The LLs will be something like

>Hillmen of Rhuadar
>Beasts in the Mountains (trolls/wargs/etc)
>Carn Dum
>Rivendell/Lothlorien reinforcements
>Earnur’s Gondor Army
>Defenders of Fornost
>>
>>84988031
I think they'd rather do Ruins of Arnor revamp. Angmar update, (hopefuly) Arnor's big update. Since GW wants to grab your money I'm fairly certain that they'll add Lossoths at some point and pretend they were always friends with Northern Kingdom for alliance purposes.
>>
>>84988174
Who the fuck are Lossoths?
>>
>>84986928
what new rules have come out for Necromunda the past year? I haven't been looking into it for a while. Or painting my models.
>>
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>>84988189
Men that live in the coastline north of Arnor and west of the Forodwaith. See pic. They provided shelter for Arnor's last king iirc.
>>
>TQ
Post your terrain!!!

Posting some pics my opponent took of our game yesterday. Was the first game in a Law and Misrule campaign my FLGS is running, although I seem to be the one doing most of the organisation.
>>
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>>84988262
Buy your toy truck, you scum.
>>
>>84988351

All of the terrain is mine, some of it is from the Shadow War Armageddon box and the rest is from the new Ash Wates box. I am playing Redemptionists and my opponent was Cawdor. We ended up rolling 'The Trap' and I was the defender.
>>
>>84988351
I feel like the heavy rust effects waste the detail of GW's terrain, but I'll be damned if that isn't one of the best-looking boards I've seen.
>>
>>84988378
The game started very badly for me, with his crossbow guy up on some elevated terrain and his other mooks managing to set every single member of my gang on fire. In the classic necromunda fashion though, the game ended with my completely wiping the board of all his guys and winning the scenario. I got the Redemptionist Backers intrigue, 50 credits and 4 reputation and still need to consider a trip to the Black Market to see if I can find any goodies.

Personally I put it down to having painted my minis while some of his weren't even primed.

>>84988391
Cheers, originally it was an experiment in using pastel chalks as weathering powders but then I just said fuck it and went mad. I like the insane rust but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea.
>>
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>>84988360
>posting au prices
Please post from relevant countries for now on.
Price is still fucked though. I'm very glad I invested in a 3D printer.
>>
>>84988189
Tolkien's eskimos/ide people. Read LotR's appendix you peasant.
>>
>>84988484
*eskimo/ice people
>>
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>>84988444
28 bucks. Can't beat it.
>>
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>>84988547
sauce?
>>
>>84988189
Sami, basically. Arvedui sheltered with them for a while after fleeing the fall of Arnor.
>>
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Finished the aforementioned dice tray.
>>
>play Necromunda
>manage to get within a single objective without taking a single hit
>shoot enemy leader
>goes down in one hit due to enforcer bolter
>shoot another guy also goes out of action
>opponent bottles
>still only in range to one objective so
>enemy runs away
Mother fucker I technically won but gain nothing out of it.
>>
>>84989738
Not losing anything out of it is a gain.
>>
>>84989738
>enemy team crippled by loss of leader
>continue gunning down the others instead of playing smart and secuting the objectives
you only have yourself to blame
>>
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requesting this. Missing from Ops links. There is original content not found in the Spike magazines it collects.
>>
>>84989871
I just shot a random dude on my way.
Really did not expect for everyone to die in a single round
>>
>>84989900
>not found in the spike magazines
Spike Journals, Magazines are an older thing.
>>
>>84989919
Never change, you beautiful loner. Appreciated.
>>
Here's the question.
Grima cannot be attacked including shooting. However Legolas' 2+ shot allows him to pick any target regardless of basicaly anything. Can he declare Grima's horse as a target or does it count as attacking Grima?
>>
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>>84988351
My modular Sump Sea board
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>>84988351
And my modular Zone Mortalis board.

The ZM board just breaks down into easy 12" square panels and you add scatter terrain. The AS is the same but you add the upper platforms onto the columns and then add scatter like crates, bridges, stairs etc
>>
>>84991702
>>84991730

Great stuff, I'm sure you've had lots of great games on it. Ever considered making some rafts or boats for the Sump Sea board? Could be a cool scenario where you have to jump from boat to boat to avoid a tidal wave caused by a hivequake.
>>
>>84987355
Mite be fun. Reminds me of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43ItX_bPR1o
Seems like having a turn-clock would work well for this format and really enforcing calling each other for illegal procedure causing a turnover. Not sure about bribes and inducements but might have to have them so goblins can play.
>>
>>84987355
Oh right and limiting big guys is probably a good idea.
>>
>>84991754
Cheers buddy and yeah, that's on the list! At some point I'm going to make a sort of sea wall type of thing so I can mix the boards up to have a partially flooded section of each board and some ZM unflooded bits. Got enough to be getting on with.
>>
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I picked up some battle systems terrain for a hopeful future Mordheim game, and I wanted to get opinions on it. It's cheap and looks good, but it feels like I'm trying to assemble a lego set without all the pieces with the one kit. I assume it gets better as I get more, right?
>>
>>84989567
That looks really fucking cool, anon.
>>
>>84989567
Good shit
>>
>>84991785
That's in the positional limit, the negatraits are extra bad in 1v1 and 2v2 scenarios I think, but that bears playtesting.
>>84991757
I skipped illegal procedure because I imagined this as back-alley under-the-table pit fighting but as with above bears playtesting, also the biggest part of the reason is I didn't want a limit on turns as IIRC boxing goes until the fight is over.
>>
>>84991785
Oh also big guys is the only thing stunties have going for them which is why I didn't exclude throwing team-mates.
>>
>>84994273
>IIRC boxing goes until the fight is over

There's a set amount of rounds and if the fight doesn't end before then it's decided by the judges' score.
>>
>>84994348
Oh, I am not surprised I am wrong, that's never been my sport.
So Blood Boxing will have about as much in common with Boxing as Blood Bowl does with Football?
>>
how fucked up would shadow war armageddon become if it was switched to an alternating activation system?
>>
I'm looking for Dave Graffam's paper terrain, his ruins set for Mordheim and his sci-fi buildings for a cyberpunk settings, thank you !
>>
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The new corpse grinder cult car for ash wastes looks sweet.
>>
>reading Defense of the North
>fluff is max garbage
Let them make the rules but fuck, reading all this drivel is painful.
>>
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Anons who do you think is the best Hired Sword in Mordheim? I mean official ones as per the errata.
>>
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Are Rhunish War Drakes worth it? D5 but they seem to be amazing anyway and are the only source of S4 in Easterling armies but that 20pts is quite a lot.
Also what are people's thoughts on Easterling LL?
>>
>>85000326
Drakes depends entirely on their base size. If they're on 25mm bases they wiĺl be amazing. 40mm its pretty mediocre, might see limited use. 60mm total trash.
>>
>>85000368
Damn it. Somehow I automatically assumed they'll be on 25mm ones because in my mind they are just big lizard doggos.
>>
>>84998980
>Elf Ranger
beats them all, that +/-1 can make you very rich and he also has (very) long range quality attack. I'm a WH player and he's always my go to HS choice.
>>
>>85000326
>Also what are people's thoughts on Easterling LL?
It's kinda meh.
>>
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>>84989567
>>
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>>84996775
I've got one of them I've been meaning to convert into a tank for Gaslands.
>>
>>84995573
Probably not at all? SW:A was essentially the Kill Team reboot and Necromunda reboot in one game the GW released and then immediately killed by also releasing KT and Nucromunda. It's a shame because I actually really like SW:A and prefer it to both alternatives. Alternating activations would probably make it even better.
>>
MESBG question:
If some ability/spell shuts down "active" does it mean that a model with an "active" weapon cannot use it or it counts as a normal wepaon but without X "active" quality?
>>
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>>85002677
>>
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>>85003254
I know that but that's a ruling about Floi not a general one.
>>
>>85004400
And the ruling shows that when a weapon has it's abilities shut down that it still remains a weapon.
FFS anon I am a third party to this discussion, a Blood Bowl player that does not play MESBG and even I can see that is why other anon shared a picture of that particular ruling.
>>
>>85004556
Ok anon but there are people in my group who claim that shit like immobilize or whatever shuts down everything after ACTIVE (the way rules are written "Active" or "Passive" is often the first word after the item's name). For me it's pretty obvious but I sometimes play with Warmachine ex-player and he won't accept anything that doesn't directly answer specific problem even though 2 other players tell him how it works.
>>
>>85004673
>tell him
Show him said FAQ's and if arguing continues then you and others refuse to play with him.
Simple as.
>>
>>84992086
Probably. Something that really enhances papercraft terrain is to take a black marker and run it on the edges.
>>
>>85004964
Do something about those grey clips too.
>>
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>>85004673
reading isn't just fun, it's fundamental
>>
>>85004143
I like Necro boards like this, very classic feeling. If this is yours, good job anon.
>>
>>84991702
>>84991730
Rad as hell, I really want to make a sump board using resin pour for ""water"" and a bunch of rickety boardwalks.
>>
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Which is the best of the skirmish games to try?
>>
>>85005753
the one that people in your region play
>>
>>85005772
I'm in the midwest less than 100 miles from Chicago, so --- everything. I just need to ask.
>>
>>85005818
personally: Mordheim>Oldcromunda>Newcromunda>Coreheim
(and Warmaster above them all, but it's not skirmish)
never touched Gorkamorka
>>
Did someone try to house rule Battle Companies so they are actualy playable? It has so much potential and idea is fun nontheless. Also for those who actualy played it - what are the main issues you've experienced?
>>
>>85006019
I have never played it because after reading the battle companies section it became glaringly obvious that this game is fucked. Starting warbands are trash in terms of balance and advance system is just a comedy.
>>
>>84987449
>So what's next for MESBG?
War of the Last Alliance; as a tie-in for the RoP.
>>
>>84988360
No thanks, I'm not Kiroth...
>>
>>85006268
>advance system is just a comedy
Elaborate please.
>>
If I cast Channelled Bladewrath on the Dragon Emperor and fight, does his Black Dragon attenders carrying the palaquin hit at S10? They do right? Same with Channelled Enchanted Blades?
>>
>>85000326
>Also what are people's thoughts on Easterling LL?
I mean you'd need a really good reason to not include the Dragon Emperor in even a low point-level Easterling list now, and if you're including the Emperor then unless you really want Khamul you have no reason not to run the Legion.
>>
>>85007659
>Bladewrath
I see that not even MESBG could survive unscathed by the stain of modern GW 'creativity'
>>
I want to get into Necromunda and I've been thinking between Orlocks and Squats, but gravitate closer to Orlocks, because they are a standard gang with no fancy rules like Enforcers or how Squats are probably going to be.
But I'm also not very interested in fights outside and don't care much for the starter's terrain or vehicles.
>>
>>84998755
A few of the errata HS are brokenly OP, so sticking to the core book I'd say Elf Ranger and Ogre Mercenary. It also depends on the warband you're using: an Ogre is incredible if you're running Sisters or Witch Hunters and get Healing Hand on your caster, while an Elf Ranger's already-excellent skill gets even better in a WH warband where three heroes have Wyrdstone Hunter.
Halfling Scouts are also great when you hit the warband member cap and want to expand.
>>
>>85008388
Bladewrath has been around for years.
>>
>>85008448
Modern GW has been a trashfire at the very least since WHFB 8th, and the plague of horrible nouncombo names was already raging by Endtime.
>>
>>85008400
Orlocks are rock-solid, and House of Iron gives them fun tools to play with. Wreckers and names are both really fun.
>>
>>84989738
It has always bugged me when games pull this; having on-the-board objectives or assets, and not getting them if you completely wipe the enemy/remove all threats.

I understand why from a balance perspective, but it just irritates the shit out of me.
>>
>>84988351
My diet. The thumbnail looks like donuts
>>
>>85005868
How does Coreheim differ from Mordheim?
>>
>>85008783
Not really, you must be hungrier than you realize.

(Hold strong and persevere, anon, I believe in you)
>>
>>85008805
pretty much a texbook case of
>Soulless vs Soul
Coreheim is radically simplified and "rebalanced"
>>
>>85008805
Coreheim is what you get when imageboard dorks want to play Mordheim but are completely unable to accept that at some point their guys might lose to women with hammers.
>>
>>85008814
Thanks anon. My dying wish is more gorkamorka although from what I can figure out without an lgs there's a sort of gorka-munda?
>>
How do you read the house-affiliated outcast gangs? Who can take equipment from the house lists, and which list? Can they make use of any of the special rules (like legendary names, or genesmithing)? Hangers-on?

My reading is that the outcast leader of such a gang can take the leader equipment of their affiliation, champions from champion lists, and gangers from the ganger or juve list.
>>
I recall reading back in the day that in Mordheim armor was super expensive and generally not worth it. Players pitched around fixes to make things worthwhile like halving the cost of armor or bumping the save increase up by 1 (some propose only allowing that if armor + shield) and I’m curious how you guys feel about mordheims armor balance?
I’d like to play an orc warband with some badass black orc larpers at the top.
>>
>>85010030
Armour, as is, in the Mordheim game is just trash. Only house-rule I've ever played with that made it worth taking and gave an interesting addition to the mechanics was a two part change;
>1. The armour save gets used if the character gets taken out of action, as a last-chance save vs. rolling on the injury chart.
>2. No armour save in game, but armour gets added straight to toughness. (So T3 with a shield and light armour becomes T5).
>>
>>85010073
Stacking toughness seems like it would get out of hand very fast and make the game into heroheim when you have T6 invincible lords with parry
>>
>>85010089
The go-to counter was always the Youngblood w/spear and Champion with Great Weapon. We never had an issue with it, but your experiences may differ.
>>
>>84988360
I think I'll wait for a proper recaster.
Still waiting on some good armored wheels that look like they can take a bolter round.
>>
Anyone have the 477 White Dwarf? Specifically looking for the Palanite Enforcers new rules.
>>
>Bought the Mordheim starter when it came out
>Over hyped kid theorycrafting warbands all day long
>Too socially insecure to actually show up to the LGS to play
>Fast forward 20 years
>Living abroad, finally able to have social interactions without melting in sweat
>LGS have players for a Polish version of Mordheim
>Don't speak the language and no one wants to play vanilla Mordheim

Will I die without being able to play a Mordheim campaign at least once /tg/ ?
>>
>>85011626
if you live in poland make and effort to learn the language. What is wrong with you?
>>
>>85010030
It's more a taste thing than a balance thing. Mordheim is designed as a setting where lightly equipped nobodies run around clubbing each other to death for scraps of gold, while the more organised military types stay well away from the madness. This means that armour is designed as a bling/vanity item: you can buy it if you want, and it's maybe worthwhile on your swaggering captain to go with his feathered hat and colourful cloak, but it's really not worth equipping all your guys.

If your group doesn't like that, then go ahead and make changes. Some popular ones are:
• Armour penetration starts at S5, rather than S4
• Armour costs are halved (boring IMO)
• Shields grant an additional +1 save when used alongside a hand weapon
• Nerf dual-wielding, as an indirect buff to carrying shields. The best option is a -2 to-hit penalty on the extra offhand attack when wielding two weapons.
>>
How does one get into Necromunda? It's not just a skirmish game from what I gather but a RPG-lite?
Do you pretty much need a group of people to play their campaign games? How many people do you need, and how does that work if everyone has one crew?
>>
>>85011529
I posted a link to my own scan of 477 last thread, here: >>84980753

If you're looking for the Necromunda stuff specifically I extracted that to its own PDF too.
>>
>>85011643
The rules are 636 pages long. I'm gonna give you a version in fucking dutch, containing words you don't hear everyday and complicated rules, then you tell you how fun it was
>>
>>85011626
Wtf is Polish Mordheim? How is it different? Can't you get someone to explain to you the major differences?
>>
>>85011657
Works best with at least four.
>>
>>85001585
How can it not put a smile on your face?
>>
>>85011722
>The rules are 636 pages long.
Based autistic poles.
>>
>>85011741
It's called Warheim and quoting the guy behind it :
>Overall, Warheim FS is Mordheim + part of the rules from the 7th edition of the WFB. Companies have more units to choose from, including chariots and war machines. There is also magic from the 7th edition of the WFB.

I saw a game as well and basically each piece of terrain gets some specific rules (they put cards on them). Also, the warbands spread from page 56 to 270 for a total of 54 warbands
>>
>>85011722
I don't live in the netherlands so why would I bother reading a bunch of dutch rules?

If you just want to complain like a bitch write in a diary. If you are in poland and the polish guys play in polish then you'll have to suck it up if you want to play with them.
>>
>>85011983
Meaning we are not in the same situation so anything you would tell me is basically shit as you can't (try to) relate
>>
>>85012127
Meaning
>"You fucking retard, I wouldn't move to a country AND NOT LEARN THE PRIMARY LANGUAGE OF THAT COUNTRY"
>>
>>85011672
Hey PDFAnon - have you converted the Defence of the North into a PDF at any point?
>>
>>85007820
>a really good reason to not include the Dragon Emperor
Amdur is cooler
>>
>>85011626
>LGS have players for a Polish version of Mordheim
If you mean Warheim I'd steer away from it anwyay, it's an equivalent of Warhammer vs WAP. Did you end up in the south?
>Don't speak the language
But people here do speak english anon - unless you're talking about Warheim players, wouldn't expext much of them anyway.
>>
>>85012127
nobody is in the same situation as you. Why did you even post it then?
>>
>>85010030
>half price
>Armour is not reduced by S (armour piercing does)
>max armour save is 4+
This combo works the best Imho. Armour is still not an autotake but at least it's attractive enough to consider.
>>
>>84986928
Is it fair to sell the good side of the Pelennor fields box for 65 USD? I wanna use the money to bulk up the Evil side with heroes.
>>
>>85013204
I'd check ebay for prices. If you put it up and someone buys it...good for you. I see things that are still in production go routinely above the prices that GW sells them for directly. I have no idea who buys it (unless the mob is using miniatures to launder money now instead of nail salons), but apparently there are people who buy it.
>>
>>85011626
It's not "polish version of Mordheim" you retard, it's some localized abominatation made by a fat retard played only becasue OG Mordheim group of the region dissolved and left a power gap.
>>
Reminder that Morannon orcs are a crutch for playlets and powergamers and are both crunch and fluff obomination.
>>
it seems the 40k rpg general is dead so i'll have to ask here

mini session of dark heresy (1st ed, no expansions) went tits up and now 3 PCs have been arrested and detained, one of which wounded on the impact damage table (reduced to 0 wounds, took 3 damage on the table for some broken ribs etc) (which is my PC)
there are 4 other PCs that may do a rescue mission, but the 3 captured PCs may be interrogated

any tips for getting out of a situation like this or to resist interrogation?
I've thought of a good cover story, and the wounded PC has the interrogate skill, so the GM may allow a bonus to resisting interrogation, but hes wounded and may not recieve medical attention

im actually mad because I had a fucking power sword and now I lost it
>>
>>85013771
note im not asking for an exact plan with meta knowledge, just some tips or "yeah thats a good idea and could work"
>>
>>84998980
I fucking love the Warlock. Two rolls on the Lesser Magic chart adds a lot of reach and options for any warband who can take him, and since the guy's a Hired Sword you can rehire and reroll if you don't like the results.
>>
>>85012315
yeah and it's already in the mega
>>
>>85013769
Based
>>
>>85013769
I agree. Orcs should be a ragtag swarm, and Mordor Uruk-hai are a much cooler and sexier option to sprinkle in some elite troops. Morannon orcs make no sense and are a weird redundancy that overall ruins the army's theme.
>>
>>85013771
>any tips
Don't play a tabletop session with seven fucking players in it

>for getting out of a situation like this or to resist interrogation?
No you're pretty much fucked unless the GM pulls his punches
>>
>>85013769
>>85014259

I think if they wanted to represent the army that attacks Minas Tirith in the movie, they should've simply included the option for D6 orcs, and left S4 for Uruks. That would be more interesting, as Uruks would have their own niche (they would be the only basic S4 troops in the army, while also providing F4 that other troops can also provide).

But as is, I think it's just a unit that's product of powercreep, it's too efficient, and it feels bad not to include them because of that.

Also, I think that the regular Mordor Orcs box is much better looking in terms of sculpt quality (even if it's really outdated now)
>>
>>85013769
I'm new to MESBG - care to explain why?
>>
>>84988360
300 dollaridoos for that fucking thing? holy shit.
>>
>>85014346
>I think if they wanted to represent the army that attacks Minas Tirith in the movie
I think they should steer away from movie representation as much as possible, not to mention that "morannon" orcs are just GW's invention and there's nothing like them in the movies. Unless we assume that movie portrayal of soldiers of gondor, that is: incompetent, unskilled, dumb fucks who's armour counts for nothing is accurate but then we go back to square one. Also from gaming perspective Mordor didn't fucking need them, I can't even comprehend why those idiots at GW felt an urge to introduce them.
>>
>>85014346
>they would be the only basic S4 troops in the army, while also providing F4 that other troops can also provide
You forget that Black Guard exists anon.
>>
>>85014346
Honestly I think D6 would have already been too much. In the movies the orcs at Minas Tirith are still cannon fodder that dies in droves and uses numbers as their main weapon against the better-armed soldiers of Gondor.
I don't think there's a point in having a separate profile at all from the basic mordor orcs, but if anything, they could have had Courage 3, or maybe Courage 3 when within 6'' of a hero, since they were fairly steady and disciplined during the siege compared to their usual fare.
And, I dunno, maybe some models with spear and shield.

>Also, I think that the regular Mordor Orcs box is much better looking in terms of sculpt quality (even if it's really outdated now)
Same. Mordors are charming, Morannons are just derpy.
>>
>>85014364
They are essentialy a "perfect" warrior - moderate price, highs S, high armour, access to spears, choose whatever one handed weapon type you like. They are a no brainer take for Mordor because except for F (which is not an issue considering how they're used) they are essentialy a gold standard of warriors.
>>
>>85014600
>I think they should steer away from movie representation as much as possible
100% this. And it's not like WETA/TolkienEstate lawyers would storm into designer's studio and contest profiles and rules, no matter what some retards would claim. Actually games should soft "retcon" some of Jackson's retardations and no one would suffer.
>>
>>84988444
Like 182 bucks is in any way better.
>>
>>85013769
Morannon Orcs are based because they filter shit lists. Everyone needs to build their army while keeping the question in mind of "how will I beat a Morannon spam?"
This results in absolute kino models being picked more.
Cant afford to be a bog standard S3 D6 line with no tricks. You need F4, D7 and/or bonuses to wound.
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>>85014815
>Actually games should soft "retcon" some of Jackson's retardations and no one would suffer.
>>
>>85014600
>>85014815
I for one am angry
ANGRY ABOUT ARMY OF THE DEAD
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>>85014861
Damn anon you've morbed it
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>>85014600
>>85014815
I do think that (in the movie) they are different from other orcs, if you look at their armor and discipline. But I agree with both of you that they should steer away from that.
In any case, I think it would make sense to represent better armed and equipped orcs, but I think there should be a single profile with different upgrades according to the group where that orc belongs in. Those upgrades should never be combined into the Morannon Orc profile that we got, since it's too efficient and it makes Uruks worthless.

>>85014634
Always forget about those. But S5 is mostly worthless, isn't it? It's just good for trapping heroes. I bought six Black Guards but I have never used them, since I haven't painted them. I'll get to them, one day.

>>85014645
Yeah, Courage increase would make sense to represent better discipline, but I don't know if Mordor players would be willing to pay for that upgrade, since once your force is broken you're relying on other tools than the courage of individual warriors.

>Same. Mordors are charming, Morannons are just derpy.
I simply can't understand why somebody would sculpt pic related.
>>
>>85014815
>Actually games should soft "retcon" some of Jackson's retardations and no one would suffer.
Imagine trusting GW to be less retarded with the source material than Jackson
>>
>>85014884
This. Elves arriving at helm's deep was the most beautiful moment in the entire trilogy. Also them dying en masse and impaling themselves deliberately on uruk-hai pikes was actually a pretty deep metaphor of Firstborn passing into history. On the other hand it's balanced by absolutely masterful show of Legolas single handedly killing a Mumak.
>>
>>85014861
>>85014911
And if you want examples of kino models here's a few:
>non bannermir gondor has to have either rangers or fountain court
>corsair reavers with axeswaps who wound morannons on 4s with two dice
>rivendell must ally in based numenoreans for the classic last alliance battleline
>khazad guard
>axemen of lossnarch
>weird helmingas foot rohan

These kinds of fabulous models would be far less common is a basic bitch S3 D6 line was sufficient. But since everyone has Morannons it is mandatory to have a plan for them.
>>
>>85015034
Don't forget the Army of the Dead coming and pretty much invalidating every sacrifice of human lives that has been made up to that point in the battle
>>
>killed 3 of my opponents heroes horses in turn 1 of shooting

What other MESBG things recreate this feel
>>
>>85015089
Sacrificing a lowly orc against a beastly combat hero, the orc winning the combat and getting a cheeky wound on said hero. Fucking glorious
>>
>>85014964
>if you look at their armor and discipline
Well, (in the movies) at Pellenor they either stood without doing anything or were shown running away and being mowed down by Rohirrim by the hundreds. And let's not even get into "Gothmog's" profile and rules.
>>
>>85015112
>orc
>not goblin
And I don't even mean Moria goblin or, God forbid, Blackshield. No, I mean Goblin Town goblin.
>>
>>85015078
At least let's be thankful that the final version didn't include that Aragorn vs Sauron duel.
>>
>>85015121
That's why they should not get S4 or F4, but they stood in formation while being shot at by artillery, so that could be represented by C3. That is IF you're taking the movie as basis, of course.
Gothmog should've been represented by a Black Numenorean by PJ, and we would've gotten an amazing model.
>>
>>85015161
Maybe give them some kind of orcish shield wall if they’re in formation, not creating like a turbo efficient model
>>
>>85014634
>>85014964
Black Guard does exist, but Morannons are 7 points (8 equipped) with a very efficient profile, while Black guards are 12 pt for something that is often overkill compared to an uruk-hai. You can field a bulky line of morannon orcs, not so much with black guards which are so expensive you can at most field a small group to scare characters.
>>
>>85014964
>But S5 is mostly worthless
No, why would you say that? You wound D5 on 4+ and D7 on 5+. It's pretty awesome.
>>
>>85015199
Its just a retard. Sure, S4 is more points efficient than S5 but one of the big selling points of morannons which people forget is that if need be they can pierce to S5.
>>
>>85015199
Like I said, I've never used them, so I don't really know, but I figured that since most of what I fight is D6, they're only nice for heroes. Like >>85015176 said, they do seem a bit overkill when it comes to stats and price. I might be completely wrong though. In any case, when I get them painted I'll use them either way since I enjoy the concept of an elite guard of orcs.
>>
>>85014286
explain anon
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>complaining about morannons
>again
>complaining about profiles being wrong/bad because movie were shit
>again
>no mention of anything actually terrorizing the game
>>
>>85015348
It's not really a simple comparison but frankly 12pts is not THAT much for an elite profile when you consider 11/12/13 elites that Good side can bring.
>>
>>85015199
>>85015344
>>85015348
It's worth mentioning that black guard has the same Defense as morannons while costing 50% more. They wound with the same rolls against D6, which is the most common kind of defense line you'll want to have an answer against, and against D8, which is the typical bar for really hard to kill heroes; t hey have an edge only against D5 (which is admittedly pretty common, but it's also not something that basic S3 troops would struggle against) and D7. And this is before accounting for the fact that morannons can pierce.
Black guard is amazing if you want a small elite force within your army to dedicate to specific tasks or to sprinkle in your battleline, but you shouldn't get too many of them. Morannons on the other hand are great in any numbers and you can happily make most of your army out of nothing but them.
>>
>>85015528
>"they just work okay?!"
Yeah, was waiting for you to pop up.
>>
>>85015528
>something is bad
>people complain specifically about the thing that is bad
shocking
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>>85015555
>>85015568
>more complaining about how profiles don't work in their head
>never posting models, games, lists, etc., or even consideration of how they play, just sitting doing math on how they're too efficient/inefficient
tooooootally not secondaries, though, of course
>>
>>85015540
>It's worth mentioning that black guard has the same Defense as morannons while costing 50% more
While having F4 and C3 and with S5 basic stat.
>which is the most common kind of defense line you'll want to have an answer against
>and D7
Unless you're playing vs all comers in some tournament then sure, but if you go vs specific opponent (minas Tirith, Dwarves)...
>And this is before accounting for the fact that morannons can pierce
Which means they must be in front line (and you have no F4-spear-backup unless you ally) and if they loose a duel they'll be wounded on 4+/5+ themselves which is a big risk.
>if you want a small elite force
I was never advocating using Black Guards en masse/replacing every warrior, jsut saying that they are specialized warrior choice and that 12pts is not that much for what they bring. In fact I'd call it a fair price.
>>85015528
>pretending not to see that morannon orcs invalidated almost every other warrior choice
>thinks that Mordor palyers losing is a proof enough that they are "akshuly balanced"
ok
yeah,ok. bye.
>>
>>85015528
>no mention of anything actually terrorizing the game
Maybe because the game is pretty well designed and there arent such things?
Ringwraiths are a bit too prevalent but they are iconic figures so you cant complain too much.
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>>85015630
Kek diceless shitters BTFO yet again

Played Gothmogs Legion 800pts (destroy the supplies) a few weeks back for tournament prep, guy had majority Morannons vs my elves. Really didn’t see too much issue with them. Was a retard with Glorfindel though. Ended up drawing on VPs

Just win your dice rolls and you’re fine
>>
>>85015677
>Unless you're playing vs all comers in some tournament then sure, but if you go vs specific opponent (minas Tirith, Dwarves)...
Wait, do people list-tailor against specific matches like that? Even in regular game nights all we know beforehand is just the points level. At most someone might ask to play good vs evil.
>>
>>85015677
>I was never advocating using Black Guards en masse/replacing every warrior, jsut saying that they are specialized warrior choice and that 12pts is not that much for what they bring. In fact I'd call it a fair price.
Well we are in agreement then
>>
>>85015630
Yeah, yeah, all factions are balanced, there is no OP or underpowered stuff, everyone can win or lose etc. if someone disagrees with you he's a secondary, GW doesn't make mistakes and Jay is a demigod of writing good rules. Have anything new?
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>>85015688
>the game is pretty well designed, that's why I'm going to constantly complain about how bad and unbalanced it is

>>85015677
>pretending not to see that morannon orcs invalidated almost every other warrior choice
>>implying black numenoreans don't exist
>>implying regular orcs aren't used constantly
>>implying the problem with the other infantry troops is morannons and not just that they're generally weak
>>not to mention the *totally not secondaires* live in some wonderous torture world where every list from every player, without fail, exclusively uses what they consider to be the most hyper-competitive options

>>85015721
based actual player
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>>85015750
>list-tailor
Are you retarded?
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>>85015767
>im going to mindlessly complain about vacuum stats for a game i admit i've never played, spam retarded takes on everything, and if anyone says "it's really not bad" they're a GW shill, again
>Have anything new?
do you?
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>>85015778
>not to mention the *totally not secondaires* live in some wonderous torture world where every list from every player, without fail, exclusively uses what they consider to be the most hyper-competitive options
Not one of those anons but I exclusively play either at tournaments or we test some lists with friends for tournaments. So uh, yeah all I ever see are very tuned lists in matched play scenarios.
When you can play maybe once a month or less you gotta prioritize.
>>
>>85015798
Probably. I understood your point as knowing you would play against a khazad dum player and only then taking several black guard. Which is kinda odd.
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>>85015806
>for a game i admit i've never played,
I didn't see any such admission in this thread. Are you making up your arguments, anon? But why would you do that? Surely defending your 100% good-faith take doesn't require such desperate, brazenly dishonest measures, right?
>>
>>85015778
>implying black numenoreans don't exist
Lmao faggot, stop.As if you didn't know that BN and Morannons are an obligatory combo. Sorry for not being more specific, I forgot some people here have to be spoonfed.
>implying regular orcs aren't used constantly
nice strawman
>mplying the problem with the other infantry troops is morannons and not just that they're generally weak
Uh, so your idea is that Morannons ara actualy ok but rest of the stuff is weak? Can you get even more brain damaged?
>blah blah
I don't know why are you calling other people secondaries if you unironicaly claim that morannon orcs aren't the most prelevant type of warrior in every Mordor army. Stop cosplaying and go home.
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>>85015806
>I'm gonna greentext my repsonses and accuse other of being a no-games while at the same time having no argument except for "everything's fine"
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>>85015836
>Uh, oh in my club there are dozens of players and you never know who'llbe your opponent!
Take meds faker
>>
>>85015630
>>85015721
It's funny how you two appear exactly at the same time. Almost if...
>>
And to think that we were having such a fine, polite and well-argumented discussion until this cunt >>85015528 arrived.
>>
>>85015943
>we were having such a fun retarded circlejerk (again) until someone called us retarded

>>85015901
yes

>>85015867
>black guard and mordor uruks aren't weak

behold, the playlets out themselves again, and again, and again
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>>84986928
What's good about Mordheim?
Genuine question, I've never read it and I want to know why is it held so high among skirmish games. What does it do well, and how?
>>
>>85015930
Try again dicey
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>>85016172
Given that posting with a different device or a different browser counts as being a different poster, you're proving absolutely nothing.
As a matter of fact, using a phone screenshot only makes you look like even more of a samefag.
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>>85016265
Nice deflection retard. Maybe if you shielded like that on the table (which you never have because you don’t actually play) then you wouldn’t be bitching about orcs
>>
>>85016265
>>>85015930
>everyone that disagrees with me is samefag
lul
>>
>>85016298
yeah, sure, buzzword waa waa no games waa waa. Go whoring for attention somewhere else.
>>
>>85016422
>t. diceless no gamer

Have fun seething over infantry your hypothetical opponent will field in your hypothetical match against your hypothetical Youtube tuned army
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>>85015917
Huh? You'll know the player but people have several armies and a ton of builds for each army.
Its a big difference whether you face a pure minas tirith or if it suddenly has a Fiefdoms detachment or a wild Gwaihir.

Or as a more drastic example a regular Rohan player can pull a riders of theoden or defenders of helms deep or helms guard or eorl the young or whatever.
All have a different nuance to them. Hell, one has zero cav for crying out loud.
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>>85016111
>What's good about Mordheim?
It is absolutely oozing with flavor and is at the very least competing for the title of "most atmospheric GW game". Contributing heavily to this is a wonderfully in-depth campaign system.
It's a game that lives and dies by how willing the players are to embrace the fluffy side of things and roll with the punches though. As far as the actually gameplay is concerned it's passable but not great and requires a decent amount of homebrew balancing, or at the very least some form of gentleman's agreement not to take the most OP stuff.
>>
>>84996653
I’ve posted a duck load in wfb over the years, look within that cursed general friend

>>84998980
Ogre because the. You get to customise an ogre to fit your warband aesthetic.

>>85010030
Made shields combined with bucklers, and give +1 additional save with hand weapon.+ Done. Armour still ludicrously expensive and bypassed by some crite but a heavy armoured guy is now able to defend himself.

>>85016111
It’s a right laugh with mates and it really nails creating this narrative where johan krumpf -with hunter captain has seen some shit.
He survived the khornates butchers knives,the pits and he survived acid rain albeit with hideous scars, and his crossbow is known throughout mordheim as a dealer of death. Even with one eye.
For 8 months krumpf has been excising mordheim bit by bit and everyone fears him.

One day krumpf climbs to take a shot at some norscans as they run rampant through the outer districts, one of them a barely sentient idiot with a hewn bone now sees him, makes an incredibly long ranged shot which by ranalds ass bypasses his charms, and hits him in the eye(crit, armour pierced, 2 wounds) . Being dangerously close to an edge krumpf manages to roll back from his demise 8 inches below before going out of action.

His warband spurred to action pulp the warband of chaos lads, especially the fuck with the bone bow.

Postgame krumpf died.
I called up the lads in group call to let everyone else know the game results and schedule another big game and as I shared the news everyone else (5 others) cheered and offered alliances/wyrdstone to the marauder player in future games.

The witch hunters never truly recovered, although the warrior priest stood up to become the leader he eventually fell to elves shenanigans a few months later.

This to me is why mordheim kicks ass.
>>
>>85017418
Rip Krumpf, he was too pure for that hellish place.
>>
I can’t bring myself to buy this
>>
>>85017497
>>85017418
Several warband characters literally hated krumpf.not the witch hunters, just krumpf. Another of krumpf stales is when an elvish mage who hated him, abandoned all reason to try and leap across an edge to diving charge him, missed and splatted on the ground, somehow alive but stunned.
The next turn krumpf leaned over the balcony, spat, then critted with his trusty xbow. elf mage died, that player never allied with with hunters again.

In the next multiplayer chaos on the streets following the death of krumpf the elf player even allied without backstabbing the moment victory was secured (a mordheim tradition)
>>
>>85017513
See, that's the beauty of free market - you don't like it, you don't buy it.
>>
>>85017513
I swear i've seen those exact models somewhere else. They look pretty generic.
>>
>>85017668
that's not what free market means you cataclysmic moron
>>
>>85017740
If you've got better definition I'm all ears.
>>
>>85017778
Free market is a market regulated exclusively by demand and offer and not subjected by any intervention from the government or other authority.
It does not mean that "you don't have to buy stuff you don't want". You could choose to not buy plastic toys even if there was a spooky commie commissar deciding what the prices of plastic toys should be.
>>
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So a guy I know that used to play the Lord of the Rings battle game back in the day is selling his minis and offered to let me get them a bit cheaper and I'm wondering what can I do with this:
>complete fellowship from the old Balin's Tomb starter, not the recent boxed game
>goblins from the above, no troll tho
>box of galadhrim warriors
>box of rangers of middle earth
>box of riders of rohan
>loose metal minis from those old lotr magazine: galadriel, haldir with a bow, radagast, saruman, ring wraith

The Fellowship is a no brainer on it's own and I'm only getting goblins since he's selling everything in bulk but I think I could use them as enemies when GMing RPGs. For the rest I think I could get the starter set box and assemble two armies: full blown Rohar army with all those horsemen and a Helm's Deep defense army with Rohan infantry plus Theoden, Haldir and his elves as well as the Three Hunters. Are those viable?

As for the evil half of the starting set I might use them for RPGs or just sell them.
>>
>>85015989
>black guard and mordor uruks aren't weak
>trying this hard
>failing even harder
lmao, please
>>
Lord of the Rings is a game designed for scenario play. Some troops are just objectively better than others.
>>
>>85017418
>Made shields combined with bucklers, and give +1 additional save with hand weapon.+ Done. Armour still ludicrously expensive and bypassed by some crite but a heavy armoured guy is now able to defend himself.
Retard
>>
BB makes me feel like an abused housewife.
Every time after a league I swear I will drop the game for good. Almost every single game I feel awful regardless how the game goes.
And every time without fail after 6 months I come crawling back for another go. Its just a fucking game and we just play with friends but every league gives me more emotions than cutthroat competitive sports do.
>>
>>85018747
That's the nature of BB where a dice roll can radically influence the outcome of the game. Also

>abused housewife

Yeah that's the classic BB experience. But it also helps if you are the "right" team. Are you using a stunty team by any chance? That is an excellent way to spiral someone into depression.
>>
>>85018256
It’s also apparently designed for people to not play and just complain about infantry they’ll never roll against because they’re diceless morons
>>
>>85019057
I've tried all kinds of teams.
Shambling Undead, Pro Elves, Black Orcs, Halflings and Dark Elves.
The team doesnt matter although I enjoyed Shambling Undead the least.
I hate this game so fucking much and yet I keep coming back. Win or lose.
>>
>>85014259
I wish I could find some models for orcs that resemble that picture.
>>
>>85019179
All of those teams can be absurdly brutal as they aren't exactly easy to play out of the box, especially in leagues. Especially the Elf Variants, losing one positional player can ruin your whole season.

Might I suggest a simpler team like Chaos or Orcs? Above average durability, a lot of safety skills and fairly straight forward to play on top of being fun.
>>
>>85019179
Just to clarify >>85019227 the safety skills applies to the Orcs, but the other wo of being fun and above average durability applies to both Orcs and Chaos.
>>
>>85019179
NTA but I suggest lizardmen, they are lightning with the skinks and a brick wall with the saurus'
>>
>>85019227
>>85019268
Huh? You misunderstand. I'm not a bad player by any stretch. I've won a couple of our leagues and usually do pretty well.
Like I said, I hate this game but keep coming back, win or lose.
Some of my least enjoyable games were when I absolutely diced the opponent.
And my least enjoyable games were with Shambling which is the best team of the bunch I've played.
Best games have been with Dark Elves. Nothing quite like cage diving with a Witch Elf who after an incredible dive proceeds to fail the GFI out of there, break her neck and send me into a death spiral. Absolute mayhem.

I cant explain it but I find a way to start seething internally almost every game. I hate this game yet its so addictive it always ropes me back.
>>
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>>85019194
WGA goblins are pretty much based on it, but I'm not completely sure how they scale up next to LOTR orcs.
Warlord orcs are also quite similar.
>>
>>85016111
I would love to play it some day. I've slowly been building a possessed warband over the year. There's no chance I'm gonna convince my mates to double dip in both 40k and Mordheim though, and I have no idea if there's a local scene or not.
>>
>>85019300
Fuck Liggers and fuck Ligger coaches. You subhumans are on the same tier as Dwarf players.
>>
>>85019358
Skill issue.
>>
>>85014259
Oathmark Goblins, and the soon to be released Orcs, are probably best. I do not care for the Wargames Factory/Warlord nor Wargames Atlantic orcs.
>>
>>85019358
>on the same tier as Dwarf players.
You do realize that for many years Dwarfs were counted beside ogres halflings and goblins as the worst of the worst, right? If you go digging in the old Spike! Magazines you can even find an article and letters written in on the topic, Dwarfs take SKILL so go cope and seethe n00b.
Got a problem with lizards? then play lizards against them, suddenly all is fair.
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>>85019470
I prefer Oathmark too but the WGA have that very specific helm style from >>85014259
(Personally I'm planning to buy a box of WGA gobs, WGA spiders, Oathmark gobs and Oathmark wolfriders, and do a big mix and match)
>>
>>85019425
>>85019507
Who is talking about power here? Dwarves are hated because they make the matches unfun. They dont get removed, their skills shut down fun plays and every team has a very clear strategy what to do against them with little player input. Boring as fuck games.
Lizards are marginally more enjoyable both to play and play against, but the margin isnt big.
>>
>>85019557
You when you said that lizardmen coaches are the same as dwarf coaches.
If that is not what you meant then you need to expand upon your implication, the words won't leave your head unless you write them out.
>>
>>85018227
Rohan is decent, full riders isnt meta royal guard spam is but who cares. Defenders is also good. There wont be anything you can do with 24 goblins and some random evil heroes.

>>85019557
you are complaining about their skills so it is indeed a skill issue kek.
>>
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Is Khazad-dum a good army for a beginner? As I understand it their main problem is lack of spears but I love that dorf aestethics and don't want to play Erebor/Hills just becasue they seem to be better crunchwise. Should I start with Minas Tirith and wait till I catch on with experience or go with Durin's folk?
>>
>>85019849
What is unclear here?
Dwarves and lizardmen make for the most boring BB games. They and their coaches belong in the same boat.
>>
>>85019871
>you are complaining about their skills
Mate liggers literally dont have skills from the get go lol
>>
>>85019936
Dwarfs anon, keep it straight.
>>
>>85019885
It is not a good beginner army in the traditional sense, no.
But you seem to realize that its a very difficult and unforgiving specialist army. You'll probably have a good time and learn to understand them so go for it.

They're a problem when idiots recommend them to beginners because they have the most surface level understanding of the game and think that just because dwarves have good fight value and high defence that they're forgiving. Very difficult faction but very engaging and fulfilling to play. You can always just ally in Haldir and some spear elves for example if you want a more traditional battleline to try out.

Always take the King's Champion. Always.
>>
>>85019954
Werent we talking about both teams? Sorry I'm not very focused at this hour
>>
>>85020032
>not very focused
Then abstain from participating in the discussion.
>>
>>85019885
dwarves are a brilliant starter army, their playstyle is obvious but not even close to too strong so you wont get into bad habits like spamming might on pointless moves because you learned to play with Rohan. In fact dwarves could not give a shit about spending might most of the time so they are good for teaching you to conserve it. They have a solid variety of troops to let you play around with lists whilst trying different tactics. Biggest issue as a starter force is no cav or magic so youre not properly learning how to deal with those whereas gondor has everything. Though you can convienent ally whoever and your army bonus is gay so theres little penalty for doing so which gives you oppurtunity to test out other mechanics or forces in smaller doses. IMO few spears and low mobility is also good for teaching you to play intelligently as opposed to lol spears everywhere or lol my crebain grabbed this objective. Whereas the high defence shouldnt impact your learning of the game because its obvious in its value, only a retard would after playing dwarves be surprised that their pansy harad or whatever die easily. Khazad Dum are also based and look great with models that are easy to paint and look good in literally any colours. Plus all their range is actually available except for kings (which sucks because the models are ace and so is the profile) and some alt sculpts. Plus it sounds like you really want to play them so fuck Gondor.
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>>84988360
When I see this, I feel like I am reminded about how much of a failure I am as a person. I am a grown man playing with what essentially amounts to toys. I am able to dissuade myself when I put down say, a soldier on the table because I can detach from reality for a moment and picture him as a game piece. However when I see something as silly as this, it shatters the illusion and reminds me that I pay hundreds of dollars for little toy sets that I have to put together and paint myself. All the while I do it while making what is on the line of poverty. Does it bring me joy? Sometimes. However so do drugs but that does not mean it is alright to do them.

I think I need to drop this hobby. I wasted my youth with it and now that I am 25, I am getting older and realize how juvenile I am for literally spending hours consuming material related to this hobby.

Nearly every book I read is warhammer. Every paycheck I put a few more dollars into paint or the sort for my models.

I need to stop.
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>>85020109
>I wasted my youth with it and now that I am 25
>wasted my youth
Shut the fuck up anon, you're still very young. It's good that you have a perspective and see hobby as a part of a whole though, it shows that you're a mentaly healthy individual. however stop that self degrading bullshit about being a "failure" and "grown man who plays with dollies", more important things is if you're having a genuine fun or feel like you're flogging a dead horse hoping it will come to life. You might have: >a hobby burn out
>discover that this particular game is not for you
(since it brings too much disappoinment)
>moment of reevaluation
Anyway - never, NEVER tell yourself that particular hobby (if it brings you joy, that is) is not for you becasue "adult and responsible". You'll discover that the further you go in life the more difficult it is to find things that bring you moments of let-loose-happiness, therefore I'd recommend that you do not depreciate the value of miniatures.
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>>85020109
You need to stop reading schlock. That's all. Having a hobby is fine and having some creative outlet is needed, even if it's basically a more advanced form of filling in a coloring book. It's also a great way to stay in touch with your friends when you get older. Their wives won't let them off for a weekend to binge drink, but playing warhammer 2 days every third month is ok.
t. knower
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>>85020017
>>85020068
Ok anons, so the consensus is that: do it but expect hard times at the beginning? Also I'd rather not ally at the moment - I want to learn the pure faction mechanics nad synergies + being focused on expanding the colloection to the point I can have comfortable 700pts with options. And since you've been generous so far: I want to start with Durin as my big boss leader and was wondering if taking mass (10) of Hearthguard is an idiocy or reasonable approach? I also struggle to figure out how to further equip warriors with dwarf bows - is giving them two handed weapons a mistake? And the last question: If I take a Champion should he stay with the bannerdwrves for max D or can I spread them so others may benefit from rerolls? I guess it depends who I'm playing against because D9 is not always necessary, right?
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>>85020456
Splitting the banner is almost always superior. Paying for two handed weapons is cringe, especially when you have khazads, just dont give the archers anything else they are already D6. Presonally I prefer rangers w/ bows and throwing axes as my shooters but half and half is probably better. Hearthguard are good anymore than 10 at 700 is a bit of a meme but still playable.
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>>85020277
I only collect these models, build and paint them. I have less than 10 games under my belt despite being in this hobby since I was a child.
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>>85016111
What I haven't heard mentioned in the replies yet;
>Exploration
The exploration mechanic is smooth, addictive and gives a huge number of possible results. I recommend downloading the rules from Broheim just to read the exploration rules if nothing else.
>Simplicity of collecting
You need a guy in your group who owns terrain, or a game shop/club with house terrain. Beyond that the only.investment is in 15ish humanoid minis. This is great for beginners or people with existing collections. I am currently building Mercenaries warbands from a box of Perry Miniatures; 40 models for 20 quid means I can run 4-sided demo games out of a single purchase. Or you can go for nostalgia and collect the original metals, costly per mini but it's possible to collect an entire faction this way.
>History
Mordheim's been a major inspiration for other games, most obviously Malifaux and Frostgrave. It can be fun to take some minis and step back in time, and Mordheim makes it convenient if you already have a fantasy figures collection and some books or pizza boxes.
Honestly, grab some books and strips of card for barriers, walkways and ladders. It's well worth trying.
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I'm so ready to paint my squats
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>>85019343
Is it when it's too easy a win for you that makes you hate the game?
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>>85020109
It's possible to wargame healthily as a mature and successful adult.
>DO: focus on the creative side. Take your time painting and modelling, scratch build terrain out of random junk, produce physical items that you're proud of - your non-wargaming friends will have more respect for it than you might expect.
>DON'T: consume mindlessly, only read WH books, neglect creativity by leaving your minis unpainted, waste your life online obsessively netlisting or arguing rules minutiae.
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>>85019915
Wrong, that's Dorfs, Orcs and Chorfs.
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>>85020456
10 hearthguard at 700 sounds exactly right.
Twohanded weapons are trash for regular warriors.
Always split the champ banners. It should be obvious.
Take a few vault warden teams but use them to get spear supports for your heroes, do not use them as "intended" teams. The extra attack for your heroes makes them so much more consistent and the shieldmodels are really solid pieces as solitary roadblocks.
Dont take rangers unlike what the other anon says. You dont want D5 models. Regular warriors with bows are a far superior model for both shooting and combat.

And lastly for 600 or less points, Balin is usually a better choice than Durin. Heroic March is mandatory for dwarves. At 700 you can get Durin, Champ and King but at say 500 all you can afford is Balin & Champ.
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>>85018227
Just adding that in addition to what >>85019871
said, the Three Hunters plus that Rangers of Middle Earth box means you just need to pick up Halbarad somewhere for the banner and you have the Grey Company LL too.
You're also just missing Elrond for the complete Vanquishers of the Necromancer LL if you feel like being absolute cancer.
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>>85024055
>Regular warriors with bows are a far superior model for both shooting and combat
S2 bows with 3+ shoot and longer range are better against even armoured opponents at D6 or D4, such as Morannons with shield (shock and horror) and horses, and D5 is equally sturdy against S2 and S4 bows as D6 is. Rangers can also skirmish the full 5" movement if you take throwing axes, and depending on your local terrain options the movement option can also aid in your poor maneuverability. They are definitely a sidegrade rather than an autopick, but they are in no way always worse than regular warriors.
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>>85024741
Majority of enemies in this game are S3. Even the dreaded morannon lines usually have S3 orcs as spears. Or BNs backed by Morannons which has S3 in front.
D6 is vastly better than D5. Its unquestionable. The melee performance alone is enough to make regular warriors better than rangers. In this game every model is a melee model after all.
In the shooting department you're correct, it doesnt matter nearly as much. Dwarf warriors are super efficient against elves, and that S3 helps against many common enemies like warg riders, uruk crossbows&pikes etc.
But rangers are better against say gondor rangers or corsair crossbows.

Its just the fact that every model will end up in melee. A dwarf warrior with a bow is usually just as efficient as a dwarf warrior with a shield at fighting. A ranger is a massive target and a liability.
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>>85024806
Maybe it's just personal experience, but I can't really agree with your endnote even if most of the above is true. Here is a 600p list I've been running recently. Never ever have the four rangers with bows and throwing axes been a massive target and they've had a relatively easy time moving on the sides of the main battleline. The big targets have always been things like the two Iron guard, the herald who isn't with the champion, Balin with his one fate in scenarios with Leader wound VPs, and the Warden spear. Calling rangers a massive liability feels like you are putting too much emphasis on individual combat statistics rather than the bigger picture.
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>>85024927
Most of my experience about Khazad Dum comes from playing against them.
The rangers are a relatively big target as several models that are 2x more likely to be removed in combat is a big deal for breaking the dwarf army. I dont send my heroes there, but when it comes to regular warriors absolutely I prioritize getting multiple S3 hits on the rangers over others.
I also play factions with S3 shooting whether that's throwing weapons or bows. The rangers are a juicy target. I dread seeing lists without them.
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>>85024978
In the end its probably just us playing in different kinds of local circumstances and as such having different views on specific tech models. Particularly if you play only certain armies against KD and I play them mostly against four to six armies which happen to be better for rangers.
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>>85024927
>>85024978
And I just dont understand what the rangers are supposed to bring into the list. Regular bow warriors are better for splitting to sit on objectives since they're better in combat.
And take it from a corsair player, a couple of throwing weapons are irrelevant. Most games they do nothing and you're pleasantly surprised if once in a blue moon you pop some orc spearman.

They're absolutely kino models though so I certainly dont blame anyone for using them. I always end up taking a few if I happen to play Khazad Dum just because I like the sculpts so much. And while I've bashed the profile its not cripplingly bad or something. Just gotta understand that you pick them for the looks and fun throwing weapons, not for minmaxing list performance.
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>>85025008
>I play them mostly against four to six armies which happen to be better for rangers.
I genuinely cant think of any.
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>>85025057
Not a dwarf player myself, but Alaistair King who typically places on the podiums of GBHL does run a mix of rangers and warriors with bow. I doubt he would do if the models were objectively worse, seeing that he also does things like spams vault wardens and hates the ballista.
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>>85010280
Literally just buy a toy truck and paint it. Slap some plasticard on it. Harness your inner ork.

>>85014513
Wait until you see the price individually. $43 dollars for TWO GUNNERS. HA.
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>>85020109
>When I see this, I feel like I am reminded about how much of a failure I am as a person.
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>>85025113
People run suboptimal things all the time in tournaments just because they're interesting or have nice models. And there's argument of taking a few rangers just to have the threat of a throwing weapon after moving. People have an irrational fear of them and can do stupid moves just because of that. But its a mindgame move and hard to quatify. I play in tournaments quite often and yeah you do want to have such threats even if they're super unlikely to do anything, just because it taxes the opponent a tiny bit more. They might overcommit warriors to go after the rangers because they see the D5. Their hero isnt in the optimal place because they dont want to get dismounted. Etc.
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>>85024806
>>85025057
>>85025236
You can't all be the same person, right? How can dwarf rangers all at once
>Be massive target and a liability.
>Have no clear role in the list.
>Cause psychological strain on your opponent because of the threat they pose.
You'd think that at top level tables players would know how much weight to give to a few throwing weapons without starting to sweat over them. Maybe they are just a good tactical option to add to a list that already has 20% of its warriors with dwarf bows?
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>>84996775
I lold
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>>85019350
I'm in a similar boat, but I decided to go full-hog. I've built an Undead, Reikland, Ostland and Dwarf warband (and planning on making Possessed, Skaven, Sisters and Shadow Elf warbands later), and I'm building a dedicated Mordheim board.

I'm hoping it'll be easier to get my friends into a game of Mordheim if they didn't have to make their own warband right from the get go. Lure them in with some tutorial warbands, then snare them.
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>>85020109
Damn bitch me too! Im 25 and have been doing this shit for my whole life! Its in the family! I rather paint minis and read WHFB and 40k books and listen to Auspex Tactics more than hang out with my objectively hot girlfriend of 2 years. But guess what, we probably both have addictive personalities, so enjoy the plastic crack instead of real crack, get some gaming friends, and enjoy being creative.
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>>85011791
I'll finish my Foodie gang one day.
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>>85025348
What is conflicting here? They're an objectively poor profile with no clear role except for maybe applying a tiny amount of mental tax onto the opponent in a tournament setting. You're basically betting on the opponent being incompetent and making a mistake when they're tired after a few matches and see a throwing weapon.

If the opponent understands this it obviously wont work and you're just playing with a minor liability since the profile is not good.
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>>85017166
>>85017418
>>85019350
>>85021356
Thank you for your answers. I'm definitely gonna check out the rulebook and possibly try it out if I can convince some friends.
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/WIP/ping up some Badzone Enforcers. Thoughts on this guy with the skull of some beastie he's turned into a faceplate? It's all blu-tacked together, plus I'm a big boy, I can take criticism I'm sure. If the concept is good I'll add a couple more just like him.

Fluff-wise these guys operate out of a precinct right near the sump. They're the big game hunters/pest control that track and kill the creatures inhabiting the sewers and dark places of the Hive.
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>>85025832
>If the concept is good I'll add a couple more just like him.

I think he looks good, but I'm not sure if it'd work if you had multiple. Feels nice as an individual bit of customization, not sure how it would look across multiple minis.
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>>85025845
Fair point. Might save this concept for my Captain, or only do his Sergeants with the face plates. Will have a think about it
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>>85017713
Tekhnolog or something?
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>>85025832
Looks great.
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>>85020109
That happens because you just consume new product and get exited for next new product instead of having a hobby.
Paint your shit, build your own shit, convert your shit, scratch build your shit, make poorhammer terrain, monsters and vehicles.
In other words make something.
Also find some religion and avoid joining a cult (this includes cult to the state, ideology, science, personality, some random Christian spin off cult, regular cult, etc) the random budist monk or the Christian church mom are safe enough to interact, if anything you might end with more people to play with or do something else beside mindless consuming.
I say the religion part mostly because in my years working with the mentally ill a lack of "soul" as something to fill in the void of simply existing without mining drive the people insane, specially in the cities without something like a forest or mountain with easy access
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>>85026797
>the buddhist monk plays slaaneshi chaos cultists.
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>>85025864
I suppose it depends on how much character you want your enforcers to have. The skullmask is hecking kino, but if you give one enforcer that level of soul and character, you really need to give all the others a little extra unique flavour. Even small shit like facial tattoos, or adding some extra plates. Just stuff that tells a little bit of a story.
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>>84998980
I like to bring a Tilean Marksman with my SoS warband, along with a halfling scout if i got the extra cash. Just a solid ranged guy all around, and one campaign he became the bane of my enemies by killing off half their leaders.
Elf is generally better, but i have a soft spot for the lad.
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>>85027390
Knew a monk that played GSC.
Didn't had actual models for some religious reason but along with other monks played random games with wood tokens.
The only reason I ended painting my GSC with orange clothing was due to that guy.
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>>85028349
I do believe that actual models are a vanity thing, all you need to play the game is wood tokens anything more is excess, that is if you mean a buddhist monk.
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>>85028383
Correct Buddhist monk.
Since the guys a meet where not preachy about their religion didn't expand much on the subject I was just enthrall with the sight of a bunch of monks playing 40k
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>>85028383
Hell man, I used to play Paperhammer Fantasy 6th edition back when I was a kid and had no money for miniatures. All you needed was dice, a ruler/metric tape, pen & paper, and scissors. We'd mark casualties with an X and that's it.
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>>85028538
>>85028540
If I ever get stranded on an island I will make a rollup Blood Bowl pitch out of flat sticks tied together and use rocks for pieces.
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>>85025410
I know this is very unsolicited advice but I think you should break up with your gf. It seems like you don't greatly value spending time with her and you described her as 'objectively hot'. That sounds to me like her seeming attractive to others is more important than how attractive she is to you. Obviously I don't know all the details but if you want to be happy you should find someone who can share in the things that you love with you or at least someone who you really really like being around.
t. It came to me in a dream
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I hate Riders of Theoden brainlets man. Such a crutch list
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>>85016111
It invented the genre it's in for one.
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>>85017166
>requires a decent amount of homebrew balancing, or at the very least some form of gentleman's agreement not to take the most OP stuff.
It shouldn't be balanced, thats not the point of the game nor has it ever been.
>>
I miss Shadow War so fucking much you wouldn't believe.
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>>85029247
Hence the other suggestion of just avoiding the most OP/broken stuff.
Or does the skaven player spamming slings really enhance the narrative for you?
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>>85030149
Makes perfect sense honestly.
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>>85029247
>It shouldn't be balanced, thats not the point of the game nor has it ever been.
Stop being retarded.
>>85030414
ah so now you're trolling. jsut fuck off.
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>>85030065
>you wouldn't believe
I would because it was the only 40k related project I was willing to participate in and had a genunie enthusiasm for playing and building shit.
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>>85030729
>ah so now you're trolling. jsut fuck off.
>he diagrees with me. He must be trolling!
No I just think you're wrong. And assholes who try to invent rules because they hate WAAC fags are worse then the WAAC fags they try to gatekeep. Just play the fucking game, everybody is gonna try something broken occasionally and it doesn't ruin anything if timmy wins every game for awhile, as long as he's playing the game. He'll grow tired of it eventually and then play something different, or he wont and thats fine, because it's what he enjoys. And if you just want to win then build a broken list aswell, its a fucking game not some tournament of faggots like you clearly want it to be.
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>>85030794
I like Necromunda because I like making fun terrain and cities to fight in. Everybody has their thing.
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>>85030799
I'm not interested in reading your explenation why you decide to double down on being a retard. Game was never supposed to be unbalanced, it's just your cope becasue I'm sure you're that one anon who thinks that house rules are evil!!! even though Tuomas himself encourages/was always encouraging people to adjust the rules to their liking and admitting that OG game had a lot of bugs and ill thought rules mechanics. And that balance was not perfect.
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>>85030848
TL;DR
>>
MESBG people tell me this:
Are full cavalry builds viable in the game? I want to start playing and as a former WH Bretonnia player I have a big hard-on for massed horsemen doing bad things to the infantry (or other horsemen). What are the factions that can pull off cool cavalry shenanigans - I'm definitely not interested in Rohan but I love those Karaphrakts and Gondor/Fiefdom knights. Please enlighten me. BTW I've read the core rules and Armies so I'm not totaly green.
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>>85030921
Kinda but you’re really only limited to Rohan (which you don’t want and thank god we don’t need any more edoras-tards), Azogs Hunters or Rivendell Knights. I guess you could maybe run Sharku’s legendary warg legion but meh.

Point is you’ll be limited. I’m not the best with Gondor/Fiefdoms but maybe you could do a Boromir/Imrahil all mounted list with a mix of Minas Tirith Knights and Dol Amroth? Issue is you have 0 ranged, not even throwing spears.
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>>85030921
Add to the above mentioned lists Far Harad allied with Serpent horde cavalry army, and Khandish chariots and horsemen. Or if you are feeling spicy, you could do a Mordor mounted list with warg riders, Morgul knights, and a Great beast of Gorgoroth.
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>>85031094
Fuck forgot about those. Someone at a tournament recently placed 2nd with an all Morgul Knights list.

A serpent rider/raider and camel list would be pretty kino too
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>>85031022
citadel guard can take bows and horses

>>85030921
all mounted is inherently not that viable since the bases are too big and you'll just trip over yourself. You need to to specific things like spam heroes (which is what riders of theoden does) so that your force is concentrated and all getting used instead of body blocked by your own models. Or be an absolute nigger and kite around with cavalry archers. Kataphracts wont work since they suck anyway. Maybe you could do dragon emperor with some kataphracts and dragon knights since the new legion is retarded and gives all the knights 2 re-rolls with the banner and most of your cavalry will get F5 for free. Gondor could also work if you spent most of your points on big heroes but your just playing worse rohan then.

Play whatever you think is cool but especially if you're new dont expect great things from an all cav list.
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>>85031141
Agreed with this anon

All Cav OP if you really want to learn to play the game and not rely on a gimmick then just look at an army that’s cool and build out a relatively diverse list. Don’t worry about meta chasing if you’re just starting and plus the game is more fun if you don’t play like a minmax math hammer dork
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>>85031094
>and a Great beast of Gorgoroth.
anon...
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>>85031205
anon you arent supposed to agree with me about middle earth in /gwsg/. You're supposed to get into the same old arguments about how Ingold doesnt get trapped when he loses a fight to three overpowered morranon orcs that shouldnt be in the game because they arent a thing and then follow that up with some absolutely atrocious take like claiming the Kings Champion is dogshit.
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>>85031281
That would require not playing the game
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Is there any speciliast game other than old editions of KT that lets me run a Haemonculi Coven force? I don't want to start yet another army for 40k but I'm eyeing Wracks and Talos for a long time now and would love to turn them into a small skirmish project.
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>>85031337
buy and paint the models you like, because you like them, not in the hope that you'll get to use them for some terrible broken GW ruleset years down the line

>t. newcromunda player
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>>85031565
What's your issue with Newcromunda?
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>>85031565
I already have too many models I bought because I like them. Painting models just to see them collecting dust feels terrible and kills any joy of it to me.
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>>85031706
Not him, but what's not hate?
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>>85031337
Only really the previous edition of Kill Team. I'm sure you could hack together something for Newcromunda, but it's not something GW is gonna hand out on a platter.

Or, y'know, play 500pts 40k. There is always the temptation to go large in 40k, but the only games I've really enjoyed of that game has been sub 1000p.
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>>85031754
I wouldn't know I've bought my first box this week, because it looked neat.
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>>85031141
>Kataphracts wont work since they suck anyway
Not him but why? They are...servicable, I wouldn't say they suck. I know they lack oomph they still have good-ish stats, survivability + drum, all at quite moderate cost
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>>85032019
They do suck, half the time they wont kill a D6 model and thats when they are winning. Which is fine since they work as a support piece to a phalanx but the anon wants to play an all cavalry army. You arent killing anywhere near enough with all S3 cav and a few captains or knights wont change that.
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>>85032126
>half the time they wont kill a D6 model and thats when they are winning
But that's like easterling speciality
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>>85031022
>which you don’t want and thank god we don’t need any more edoras-tards
Eh?
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>>85031022
>>85031094
>>85031128
>>85031141
>>85031205
Holy shitterino, thaks for all these fast replies anons. So essentialy:
>smol numbers becasue pts$ susceptible to get swarmed
>big bases
>no reliable shooting/and or melee output
???
So how many mounted knights is healthy in a Minas Tirith/Fiefdoms list for example? Is Imrahil+Captain+3-4Knights too much for a cavalry damage dealing force?Or Boromir+Banner+how much? Or should I abandon my cavalry addiction altogether and focus more on infantry?
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>>85031141
>and dragon knights since the new legion is retarded and gives all the knights 2 re-rolls with the banner
They're still trash that needs to be avoided though. DK are apparently a "balancing" aspect of the Legion.
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>>85030879
You just got crit'ed, OoAed and 11-15ed, reatrd
>>
If you could make an errata for your MESBG faction what would you change?
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>>85033255
>Morannon Orcs get F4
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>>85025386
I'm thinking of doing the same. Right now I'm focusing on the fun in making my own dudes, and it's really more of a side project when I feel I need a bit of change from the 40k stuff. I really like collecting OOP stuff when I find it somewhat cheap, but I also got lots of WFB units/sprues from back when I was a kid. There's definitely enought bits there to make a couple of warbands but that will have to wait. Good luck with your friends, hope they swallow the b8.
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>>85032873
Imrahil + 4 Knights works really well for Fiefdoms. Boromir + another cavalry hero + 2 or 3 Minas Tirith Knights works well for Gondor in my experience.

But like others said, unless you're planning on playing in a tourney, you shouldn't worry that much about that kind of efficiency, and you should play what's fun to you. Playing all cav Gondor would be quite boring, but having a very significant cavalry portion of your army might be much more fun, even if it's not exactly optimal.
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>>85001585
Pull a Rouge Trip PS1 and put a lil hockey mask on the front of it.
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>>85033255
Minas Tirith
>citadel guard S4, can have both spears and longbows
>Knight of the White Tower - mastercrafted or burly
>removing osgiliath veterans or giving them hatred:mordor
>King of Men available without restrictions
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>>85030729
>Stop being retarded

Mordheim, like Inquisitor, had a greater focus on being an engine for narrative story telling then it did on being a balanced tournament driven game.

OP sneaks through (fucking Shadow Elves), and you should always try to balance the meta dor your own group with house rules if needed - but Mordheim absolutely was not designed with a priority for balance.
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>>85033255
>Even more unambiguous ruling on Ingold
>Remove bows from the base profile of rangers, give them a 1pt point drop and make bows a 1pt upgrade>>85033255

>Proper rules shooting at warg marauders
>Proper rules for model count and evaluating victory conditions with warg marauders
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>>85031754
Go on
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>>85025386
I did the same thing, and actually found it really easy to sell my friends on Mordheim. If you build a decent board setup with plenty of fun terrain, I'm sure you'll have takers. I'd try to get them building their own warbands from the start, though: if they're not willing to put in the minimal effort to get a dozen guys painted (after you've put in much more effort to organise the terrain and campaign), there's a good chance they're not going to commit the time for a campaign either. Good luck!
>>
does anyone has the Outlands book? I want to take a look at the scenarios
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>>85034761
Same, scan when
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>>85034196
Not that guy, but I'll try to answer for him.
Nucromunda's a collection of books inked with the sweat, tears, mucus and saliva of GW's most virginal designers. The pain of the lashes of the corporate design schedule combined with the writers' growing despair at their lack of resources congeals into a collection of typos, nonfunctioning rules and skills and stats that connect to nothing. Each desperate, jerking attempt to give the game direction becomes a new snaggled tooth jutting from the game's increasingly vapid grimace. Books are either made redundant by later releases, come to rely on later releases to function or are simply left behind as increasingly useless tomes, consulted only because they contain That One Chart that the designers strained to choke out but then never updated. The game moans, bloats and becomes ever more dysfunctional with every increasingly expensive release, and the releases simply will not stop or even slow down. I've played wargames for nigh on two decades and never have I seen a product with so little respect for the time of either its players or its design team.
That said, the gang kits are really nice.
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>>85034462
Cheers. I'm not too stressed - my friends enjoy a good wargame, but they're board gamers at heart. Love playing Bloodbowl with me, or stuff like Kingdom Death - so I know they're cool with campaign play. They're just not miniature hobbyists. Which is fine, 'coz I'm alright tackling that part of the hobby if it means they get to experience the rest of Mordheim.
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>>85036140
With one exception, my Mordheim group are all DnDers that had never played a TT wargame before. Getting them into the painting and modelling side right from the start seemed to get them much more engaged than I think would have happened if I'd just provided all the pieces for an out-of-the-box boardgame experience.
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>>85034761
Yes.
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>>85036420
I'll have to keep that in mind. I'll see if I can start slowly - get them making single minis first and see where that takes them. Still, modelling is only one aspect of the hobby and I'm more than happy to do that if it means they can enjoy the rest of the hobby.
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>>85036420
I agree with this sentiment. I love painting models but if I'm not actively playing they languish which has happened. I need to find an lgs and get a couple games in to get me back on track painting.
One does lead to another
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>>85033671
>citadel guard S4, can have both spears and longbows
S4 fuckno, but able to take both would be nice. I'd like to see their spears made warspears and maybe 3+ shoot
the profile itself is actually not bad, it's more that GotFC are so incredibly underpriced for basically the same role.
>Knight of the White Tower - mastercrafted or burly
is no fun, defeats all the interest with mighty blow
giving him A3 and some reroll effect (maybe when fighting heroes/monsters or something) would be a nice way to buff his fighting power without taking away the nice nuance. if it's an unfixable problem it's with 2h weapons, not him
>removing osgiliath veterans or giving them hatred:mordor
hatred would be a really elegant solution, though they also should get shieldwall back.
>King of Men available without restrictions
awful idea, it'd just mean the captains (you already don't see) get replaced with kings, maybe some of the smaller heroes like ingold too. only restricting MT would be nice

the problem with kings is less his profile itself and more that named characters get so much better treatment than unnamed due to locking so many heroics.
I like the idea of each race having different heroics on basic guys, but I think it should go a step further- the captains get some added heroic, and the kings get a strike/defense on top of that. MT captains with defense might actually be worth considering and kings dropping a warband of durable MT guys plus a pretty nice mid-level fighter would be awesome in a number of lists.
as long as "oh we're giving you a name, here you're 10 points more for +1M, strike, and some gimmick rule" is how it works unnamed heroes are only going to show up because you need a march or something



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