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Previous thread: >>84372001

>What is /awg/?
A thread to talk about minis and games which fall between the cracks, or peoples' homebrew wargames. The >>>/tg/hwg thread doesn't entertain fantasy (for good reason) and the other threads are locked to very specific games.
This thread isn't tied to a game, a publisher, or a genre, let's just talk about fun wargames. Any scale, any genre, any company, any minis. Skirmishers welcome. Rules designers welcome.

>Examples of games that qualify
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miniature_wargames
OnePageRules, Warzone, Mighty Armies, Warmachine & Hordes, Dragon Rampant, Oathamark, Mortal Gods, Kings of War, Deadzone, Warpath, Frost/Stargrave, Hordes of the Things, Conquest, Songs of Blades and Heroes, Dark Age, Beyond the Gates of Antares. Malifaux and anything else that doesn't necessarily have a dedicated thread.

>Places to get minis
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D2DbNJ2mYAUxh5P9Pq9NZqS5tXHGn0i2JhZchEwbA2I/edit
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/373197.page
Updates to the minis trove welcome.

>The Novice Troves
https://pastebin.com/MjtsC8AX
https://mega.nz/#F!zSYW0I4a!vXh8-UPi_tWXpJES_-p4zg

>Thread Question:
What is your favourite rule, type of rule or other form of wargaming system?

>Thread Theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpI2XHUDH9Y&ab_channel=TennesseeErnieFord-Topic
>>
Does anyone has the Horde of Things pdf?
>>
>>84441639
>What is your favourite rule, type of rule or other form of wargaming system?
Woah, there, I didn't expect a spanish Inquisition!
>>
>>84441639
TQ: Games with simple rules but that manage to emulate the thing represented be it a battle, a skirmish, a rescue mission, a treasure hunt or wathever.

Like, ASoIaF is a very very tigh and good game, but it's exactly that. It feels extremely gamey and not at all like a real battle.
Bloodbowl, for lack of a better example coming to my mind, with all its issues, really feels like a stupidly brutal football game is happening under my eyes.
>>
>>84442553
Yeah, there's something special about the feel of blood bowl.
>>
>Kev White is going to start working for GW doing sculpts for Forge World/specialist games

Well, there's a mixed blessing. It will almost surely make actually getting his models easier, as you won't need to worry about Sally or Artemis's various health problems, or the absolute dogshit of nonsubsidized international shipping, but the kind of weird "whatever the fuck I want" sculpts are gonna be replaced with Horus Heresy dipshits and Bloodbowl mercenaries.

The fact that they apparently (and obviously from Kev's sculpting blogs) have over a year of backlog to release in Hasslefree product kind of makes the move make sense.
>>
>>84441639
Do you guys have a recommendation for a good ol' dungeon crawler with character progression? Only ever played old HQ eons ago.
>>
>>84443513
Rangers of Shadow Deep has the eponymous rangers who can level up and progress pretty well. And despite the name and general tone it gives, they can be built as pretty much any sort of generic dungeon crawling adventurer, not just sneaky bow users.
It also has "companions", but they don't progress very much.
>>
>>84443809
Ah yeah forgot about this one, I have the pdf somewhere. Thanks.
>>
>>84441776
You mean like the one that is in the Mega?
>>
>>84442832
Sure sounds like ordering from Hasslefree is a hassle
>>
>>84442832
>>84444604
I love their minis, but I think the way the guy handling the store has been either been unable to work because of health issues or hopelessly behind seriously damaged their reputation and growth potential. I mean if the guy selling the minis can barely keep up with the demand he should have just hired some help, even a student job or temp replacemnet something for the time he's dealing with his health issues.

Kind of hard to say from the outside, but I think they kind of fucked themselves. Not to mention I feel like the guy who is chronically "overworked" or "ill" cheerfully talking about the latest netflix shows he's been binging while routinely mentioning he's months behind in the same newsletter doesn't help their credibility.
>>
>>84441639
>What is your favourite rule, type of rule or other form of wargaming system?
I'm trying to remember what it was called, but there was a scheme and malifaux that involves getting your own models killed. It was really fun to play with because you had to weigh whether they had misplayed and over stretched or whether they were trying to get a model killed. Or if it was a double bluff. Or whether it was just worth giving them victory points to remove an annoying model.
>>
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Giving a friend a startgrave demo the other day
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>>84446075
that's awesome
i want to get into sci fi skirmish games (Stargrave/Five Parsecs/Reality's Edge). if i have no minis or terrain right now but i do have a 3d printer, where should i start? i'm overwhelmed
>>
Some anon was gloating about how cheap tehnolog sprues were..

Where does an american get tehnolog plastic for so cheap? The bits are cool and I'm particularly after some tank treads.
>>
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>>84446188
Thanks brother.
Well if you want to have anything like what's in my pics the first step is terrain and lots of it.
Skirmish games like these really want packed boards, generally there shouldn't be 24" of clear sight line without something obscuring it.
First off from a project standpoint I would pick a general kind of theme or atmosphere for your sci-fi skirmish games.
Do you want a Gothic totally not 40K theme, do you want brutalist concrete or anime sci-fi whatever it is, pick a theme.
One of the things I do in this process is I take screenshots of a video game or I look images from movies or different media that have inspired me save these and use them for construction, printing and painting ideas.

Get yourself enough buildings or major terrain objects that you can completely fill a 3x3 then you can work your way up to a 4x4.
You have a 3D printer so I'm presuming you have the capabilities to search for files of buildings, there's always crafting them yourself or buying MDF or plastic kits.

Then almost just as important as large pieces of terrain is scatter terrain.
This is all dependent on the kind of theme and tables you want to create urban vs forest or desert.
Your priority may vary depending on the kind of tables you want to set up or terrain you may already have but things like barricades, boxes, cars, trash cans, shipping containers, tables, chairs and of course my favorite bushes simply buying bags of lichen.
A note on scatter terrain you're probably going to need more of it than you think, you want copious amounts.
Then you pick whatever models you want the kind of games you listed are miniature agnostic so that's the beauty of it if you have old passion project models or whatever, go wild you have a 3D printer the world is at your fingertips.

Quick break down
>1 pick a theme
>2 Large terrain features buildings, hills/bluffs, rivers, tree patches
>3 Scatter terrain and copious amounts
>4 Whatever models you want
>>
>>84446188
I think sci-fi is the easiest to build a table for. Like converted garbage is an easy go to. Add in some cheap toys and printed gribbles you're set.
>>
Any tips, tricks, and/or recommendations for Gasland (75 can) lists?
>>
Could any anon share some OPR scenarios? Thanks!
>>
>>84448587
You didn't even say which game. Duel is all you need anyway, but here are the core 6 scenarios from the rulebook.
>>
>>84447841
>Rio de Janeiro, 2077
>>
Finally got a game of Black Seas in after all the work of rigging the ships I am relieved that its fun and pretty simple.
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>>84444604
>>84444894
They did hire more people last year, and so far the only people I've seen bitching in the last six months are the ones who have refused help and are sitting in their corners fuming. That said, most people also don't read the updates or do dumb shit like ordering 5 pre-orders and then wondering why shipping for them takes three months when the caster is on a once-per-quarter schedule.
Personally I've never had a problem with HF or Heresy. .

>>84441639
>What is your favourite rule, type of rule or other form of wargaming system?
Ones that provide counterintuitive penalties/bonuses to guide playstyles to be either more aggressive or more genre-appropriate. Like the Femme Fatale in 7TV giving its owner victory points if you actually kill it. So the game with an FF becomes either seducing her in a critical turn, constantly burning AP to undo her status effect spam, or Capturing her and effectively letting her take out one of your models in exchange for letting her target work unhindered. It really makes for a different play style when handled well.

>>84447941
Pick some fun shit. Try to keep it to 3 cars. sinking all that into 2 cars is asking for trouble and overstretching means the Disco Inferno Mishkin truck is gonna rape you.
>>
>>84444262

I am retarded and must need new glasses, thank you anon for your patience.
>>
>>84446188
>if i have no minis or terrain right now but i do have a 3d printer, where should i start?
In addition to what the other Anon put out there: Look at your table. If you want a 4x4 space, you want the bases of your terrain to cover around half the table. Around half of it should block Line of Sight, and the rest should be stuff that fucks with movement. There can be overlap there. The easiest way to take up a lot of table is to get some cheap MDF/3DP kits like the TTCombat Brownstone apartments, or modular buildings like Burn In and Death Ray do. It can also be fun to plan out a park; 18" by 18" usually works well. Give it a fence, gates, a couple paths and a fountain plus some hedges and it'll look great in the middle of a more techo-city. I'm currently drawing up a little shrine to go with my Corregidor terrain set, and my trailer park table has some fenced-in potato and wheat fields.

Next, about a quarter of the table should be "scatter" terrain and mobility aids. Mobility aids are stuff like road sections, ladders, bridges, fire escapes, and the like. Scatter is your usual city garbage, and some of it can fall in the "messes with movement" category like piles of Amazon boxes or a car on blocks. It's also useful to have hacking targets as potential objectives in cyberpunk games - data terminals, billboards, bus stops, vending machines, whaveter. Don't go overboard on these.

So short version: The table is sixteen square feet. 20-40% of the table (3-4 square feet) should be taken up by building or other large LoS-blocker footprints. Another ~1-2 square feet of large blocking terrain like containers or head-height barricades. ~4 square feet of movement hazards like barricades, trash piles, etc. ~2-4 square feet of bridges, road sections, parking lots, and ladders -- these will mostly be off the ground or separating things. ~1-2 square feet of small scatter terrain items like railings, motorcycles, and air conditioning units.
>>
Anyone got recommendations for zombies/rad ghouls for Zona Alfa apart from the LAF ones?
>>
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>>84450121
Hasslefree (Witch, some funny shit for "characters"). You can get parts for generic ones from Warlord and use them to doll up hazmatters and Troopers form Spectre or Hasslefree. Rubicon has some good plastic Vietcong sets that are full of good Warsaw Pact weapons -- like 4 models and 14 guns per sprue. You could also splash out for zed heads and some WP guns to put on WGA Afghans depending on where you want your Zone to be.
Anvil has a line of Moderns with zombie parts as an option.
>>
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>>84450121
https://www.studiominiatures.com/
They make many horror and action movie themed miniatures.
They have plastic zombies too at reasonable price ( £35.00 for 60 minis!)
>>
Has anyone here played Marvel Crisis Protocol? Thoughts? Considering trying it as my nephews are big into Marvel.
>>
>>84449690
I see the Australian navy is at it again
>>
Has anyone here tried out Elder Scrolls: Call to arms? It seems interesting and I can get it for cheap but a lot of reviews say its needlessly complex and the PvP mode isnt good.
>>
>>84449711
>Personally I've never had a problem with HF or Heresy. .
I wrote the thing about the newsletter. I've had some issues before, but it got sorted and I've defended them before. There's just something about the way Arty writes the newsletters that is grating to me. If they guy has so much time to watch TV why the hell doesn't he set up a working email account or check his spam folder. That blurb about contacting one email and not the other has been in that newsletter for years, why the hell didn't he try to address this on the backend on his side if it's such a big deal?

Just seems like a lack of professionalism or lazyness.
>>
>>84443905
>I have the pdf somewhere
czech out the /ospgamii trove, there's an updated one, loads of new campaigns and a beastiary pdf
>>
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>>84450923
>propriatary dice
>>84441639
>What is your favourite rule
civilians in boardgames. Gangs of rome had some, and I recall some sci-fi game had stands of civilians but that's not exactly my jam.
mercs: recon also comes to mind, but that's a board game or a grid-based wargame
>>
>>84452489
>and I recall some sci-fi game had stands of civilians but that's not exactly my jam.
Reality's Edge has 4 inch crowd bases of civilians.
Wild West Exodus also had rules for civilians.
>>
>>84452489
Hey im sorry man, I like having funky dice for games. Or atleast, i dont hate it when its unique.
>>
>>84450437
Hell, it even had a general for a while.
I dont know anything about it other then it being too expensive for me, sorry.
>>
>>84450437
I looked at it a few times. The price per mini is just to high for me.
>>
>>84450394
why is ronalds boner so huge
>>
>>84453485
He sees dead people
>>
>finaly played gaslands for the first time

that was fun
it took too long though, maybe playing it with 5 people each having 2 vehicles was a bad idea
and i couldnt remember the colision rules very well
but it was fun
>>
>>84453485
they supersized him
>>
Good small scale fantasy game? I'm thinking either KoW played with 3d printed 10mm?
Maybe Seb games little game? battle havoc
looks simple.

I want something I can pack in a box and make cool terrain for. Braindead friends so easy to learn is a +
>>
>>84457034
Warmaster
Warmaster
Warmaster
>>
>>84457085
Is it easy to learn? I'd love a pic of a table for it
>>
Anyone have any experience with Core Space? The cardstock terrain looks neat and I'm wondering if the game is worth bothering with or if it solely exists to use for Necromunda.
>>
>>84457034
10mm kow sounds fun.
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saw these cool things
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>>84441639
Do you guys have an idea why a lot of modern "regiment" sized fantasy games choose to separate units at the end a melee round rather than keeping them engaged?
What are the downside of keeping units engaged?
Examples: Oathmark, Dragon Rampant, OPR Regiments, SAGA...
>>
>>84457547
That is neat.
>>
>>84450437
I've played about six games of it now. Malifaux is my main game but MCP is a good side-game and the similarities between them make it easy to switch between.
The anons before were right, the cost is high, but you only need a roster of ten (and most games will only have about five on the table). However, the rules are simple, each model feels important, games finish relatively quickly and there's an excellent comeback mechanic. Basically, getting damaged gives you power which you can spend to do cool shit. Your character also gets temporarily invulnerable when they're first brought to 0 health. So if you fuck up and one of your models is put through the wringer then you have a chance to make a crazy revenge move.
If I can think of any major flaw, it's that there are some combos out there that are OP on certain missions. Not a dealbreaker but annoying.
>>
>>84457759
Keeping the units engaged allows players to use chaffs to bog things down. Nobody wants to see their backline support unit get tagged by something stupid and gets taken out of the game.
>>
>>84450150
Oh shit are these out yet?
>>
>>84457759
For the sake of simplicity really.
>>
>MESBG
>Empire of the Dead
>Legends of the old west/high seas
>Heroic!
The core LOTR rules sure are flexible
>>
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>>84450121
I've had a good time with pig iron's zombies and greenstuff/bits for zombies. Every I am filled with regret about green rag on head lady.
>>
>>84457547
Ah, Lazy Forger stuff
>>
>>84457034
hordes of the things is very popular but very difficult to read. I'd love a modernized rewrite, the rules only really require a 2 page document but they're so hard to parse.
>>
>>84452619
where can I buy these? cant seem to find them.
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Anyone played Zona Alfa and have recommendations on how to put a crew together? What equipment, skills and items go well together?
I'm starting a game where I have 12K.
>>
>>84459626
Oh that picture is taken from a hobby blog. They're 0 scale railroad models (you can get piles of cheapo modelling supplies from china via ebay) mounted on mdf bases iirc.
Hey just painted them with a black and white spray can too because they're NPCs.

So with a couple of bucks for the figures, mdf bases and some rattle cans you can DIY the same thing. If you reverse image search the pic the blog should pop up.

Here's a pic from a different blog using the 0 scale figures to populate an infinity table.
>>
Is a skirmish wargame (boo-hiss) about short range pistol shootouts with a focus on target identification and preparation-beating-reaction something people might be interested?

I'm trying to create something where you can game out the club shootout in Collateral or John Wick or the final gunfight in Thief
>>
>>84457238
No experience with the game but I have a few pairs of the terrain which is v nice. It comes flat packed but aside from walls and roof/floor tiles you keep it assembled once you put it together so you will need storage for it.
>>
>>84459626
Iirc they're cheap Rail Road model minis. They're just zenithal shaded and put in group bases.
>>
If you can find one, World's End made these acrylic civilians standees. I'm not sure they've been in stock anywhere though.
>>
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>>84461814
>Is a skirmish wargame (boo-hiss)
We do like skirmish games around here though.
>out short range pistol shootouts with a focus on target identification and preparation-beating-reaction something people might be interested?
Yeah I would play it. Its a small niche thats not really satisfied by anything on the market. Except maybe for Dead Mans Hand. Pic related, great sprues, I think they outsourced them to Northstar.
>>84460946
It is quite popular in here. I have not played it but from what I gathered do not worry too much about being optimal stalker. The game s easy to break and you can end with virtually immortal rambo, and that is not very fun for other players. Just go with what feels right.
>>84462518
These are great as a concept.
>>
>>84462677
Good-looking sprue.
>>
>>84462711
You're a good-looking sprue.
>>
>>84446188
No Terrain or not Sci-Fi Terrain? Because sci-fi planets have nature too.

Get a box of Stargrave Crew built 2 10man teams for stargrave, maybe make one a bit humany and one more alieny to have. Get a box of Frostrgrave Cultists, take the rest of the arms from stargrave crew to make some sci-fi low life.

If you don't want to play with gray tide or only want to trial print some paper minis from onemonk (http://onemonk.com/).

Books and shit are fine for terrain. Get a block of XPS foam, carve rock spires and hills, paint them rocky/earthy (https://terrainforhippos.blogspot.com/2020/01/ishoo-wun-fifteen-rock-spires.html)

For alien flora get some aquarium plants (just look at amazon or a local store or something).

Meanwhile start up the 3d printer for some sci-fi terrain / plants, lots of free stuff on thingiverse:

- https://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=alien+plants&page=1&type=things&sort=relevant
- https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5258164
- https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4939360
- https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5258164
- https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2441276
- https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4546993
- https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5182191
- https://www.thingiverse.com/sablebadger/collections/badgerss-star-wars-legion-collection
- https://www.thingiverse.com/forbiddenprints/designs

and so on.

Paper is also a possibility for terrain:
http://www.toposolitario.com/workshop/index_papermodels.html

Somewhere along the way make (https://skarlocs.wordpress.com/2018/03/02/make-your-own-gaming-mat/) or buy a gaming mat. Paper also an option, but would not advice. Alternatively build a board from xps foam sheets, they are usually 2x4 so use duct tape for hinges and put two together for a 4x4.
>>
I wish the official ASOIAF game had plastic miniatures and it was 20mm instead and each game consisted of around 500 miniatures per side
As a fan of the book the official game doesn't appeal to me at all
>>
>>84463064
20mm or even 15mm. I don't disagree, it's odd that they chose the size that they did - too small for armies but too large (and with too many big characters) for patrols/scouting parties. Either full armies or a dozen men please.
>>
>>84457034
Warband by pendragon is apprently really good. Otherwise just scale down a 28mm game inches to cm and go. Kow is a fun game where manouverings is super important. If you want a bit more freeform RNF go with oathmark.

Dragon Rampant, erehwon might also be options if you are of with warband skirmish.

>>84457238
I like the terrain for wargames too, the game looks solid but did not have a chance to play it yet.
>>
Any AusAnons dealt with Reaper or Aetherworks before? I ordered some scifi minis for Zona Alfa and ended up with someone elses package of mouslings and other RPG minis. I've sent an email about it but I've heard Aetherworks (who do the local fulfillment) were kind of shit.
>>
Does anyone here has Relicblade pdfs? I want to try it out with pals.
>>
MOSHI MOSHI NORTHSTAR DESU?
NANI WA ORC DESU NE?
>>
>>84457034
>Good small scale fantasy game? I'm thinking either KoW played with 3d printed 10mm?
So, KoW is essentially a skirmish game with about 8-12 models. You can get away with running it using 25x50mm, 50x50, and 15mm square bases. It's extremely simple and you'll have some issues marking unit damage at that scale, but it's perfectly workable. Especially since it requires a roughly 30"x20" board when you play it at a scale of 1" = 1cm. The original problems with KoW remain - low interactivity pure IGYG, weird statline choices, that sort of thing. But it definitely works.

>>84457214
Warmaster is a better game overall, it's just less-flexible for shit that ain't set in the GW world. I've taught people to play it in an afternoon. It also has an IGYG turn structure, but with a gambling element like Epic 40k or Battlefleet Gothic, where your commander lets you reroll failed activations instead of passing the turn. Overall balance is pretty good and the game is a lot of fun. It also has a hack for playing historicals and a couple of fan armies kicking around.

>>84457759
Short version: to keep units from getting snarled up and having to adjudicate multiple melee combats. A couple of games (like Kensei) have good reasons for keeping units engaged. Kensei's got excellent interpenetration and pinning mechanics.

>>84459167
Maines are sold out, VC are still available. It's $50 for 32 models, although I suspect some of the sites are gonna have it for cheaper.
https://www.rubiconmodelsusa.com/collections/rubicon-1-56th-vietnam-products

>>84463948
Obaka daze? Ooku, ooku da.
You want "itsu ni"
Also you said HELLO THIS IS NORTH STAR SPEAKING. WHAT AM OLUKU ISN'T IT?"
>>
>>84457034
Honestly, Dragon Rampant is ideal if you wannna draw in new people. It's easy to understand what the individual units do and there's not a lot of them. (Use the Leader command range for activation by default).
Base either 2x6 for infantry and use small dice to count down to base removal, or in 3s, 2s and 1s so you can make change.
>>
>>84464254
I'm not a fan of the activation roll as it normally works, i.e. want to do thing > roll dice to see if the game lets you, whereas other games like saga as well as sword and spear I think are more about rolling a pool of dice to see what you CAN do; its effectively the same system but the former feels like the game getting in the way to stop you Vs giving you options and decisions.
>>
>>84464771
Yeah that's the ludological argument. It's a sound argument. Despite that, to me in a game like Dragon Rampant this cursed mechanic adds to the enjoyment rather detracting from it.
In this case I think it is because the roll to activate is so central to everything, making for a lean game otoneh. On the other, being so strongly tied to the unit profile, it gives the player wiggle room to work the stat line, in having a decision which stat to gamble on.

>Sword and Spear
Have you played it?
I became aware of it only recently. Yeah, the activation process stood out. Been using a very similar one in my games - just without the dice draw phasing.
I have a feeling it might be the ONE ancient/fantasy mass combat game for me. Still need to get it/play it.
>>
>>84462677
What do you think is the best way to handle nightclub crowds? I was thinking as an area terrain that disappears when a certain panic level is reached, and players can manipulate the panic level, and at different panic levels missed shots hit civilians, which can impact VP.
>>
>>84465192
>Sword and Spear
>Have you played it?

No, but I heard about it because it seems to be in the same design philosophy as Saga and avoids a lot of the issues I had with the aforementioned activation mechanic, as well as having a shared ancient/fantasy core meaning only having to learn one game, fundamentally. Its one book with free army calculators so might pick it up and go the megapleb route of cutting out rectangles of cardboard and putting a handful of 28mm guys on them to visually represent each unit type, I don't think I have the physical or mental space for yet another model scale.
>>
>>84465648
>nightclub crowds
Random dice roll to determine effect with panic level as a modifier (each panic level adds +1 modifier for example).
>1-3 crowds staying put, simulating panic/taking cover/normal club.
>4-5 they might move towards nearest exit, as violence breaking out.
>6 causes stampede of people towards exit, double movement speed, damaging people on their way.
>Can track line of sight through crowds but it is slightly more difficult and failed rolls hit them increasing panic/losing VP
>Or can purposefully target crowds to try and cause stampede sooner.
>>
>>84466210
And this makes hand-to-hand skills useful as a way to take out targets in a crowd while minimizing effects on the panic level. I like it.

For the Collateral scenario, I think Vincent's player should be able to deploy decoy tokens in the crowd as long as the panic level is below Team Nightclub Security has to get in base contact to turn over the token.
>>
>>84466281
I would also say including a stealth mechanic would also benefit melee, where the NPCs would be neutral, moving randomly UNTIL violence erupts, and melee has a chance to not escalate things. So you could have a few turns of using the crowd as mobile cover as you try to get into position.
>>
>>84466552
One of the problems I think you run into is time scale. The Collateral nightclub shootout takes about 4 minutes, and the irl Pule Nightclub shooting also took about 5 minutes. You can easily be shot dead in the 6-10 seconds. that many games set the turns to be. However, most wargames tend to fall apart if a game takes dozens of turns to run a scenario.

Maybe shooting deserves its own minigame to simulate every second mattering, and a regular turn is ~30 seconds.
>>
What makes so many skirmish games feel same-y?
>>
>>84469173
Most are half-baked poorly tested pet projects of people thinking they're reinventing the wheel by putting all the things they liked in other games into one place.
>>
>>84469173
I think because the rules have to adjudicate the same situations? Move, shoot, melee, cover, I go you go or something different in terms of model activation. Most of these rules are designed to be simple to remember so they turn out samey.
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>>84464771
I like it when it's a roll to see how much you can get away with, and there are mechanics to minimize or ignore a few blown rolls a game/turn. TNT does it very well. Dragon Rampant does it very poorly. Not only are the penalties for failure extremely harsh, but rather absolute. The numbers required to fail make it unlikely that you'll ever get to use more than 4 units per turn, and often end it at the first attempt. Which is infinitely more frustrating than passing the dice between strings of activations on a normal "turn".

Epic/Warmaster is an imperfect system, but the minimization options you have make it feel more like pushing an envelope than getting kicked in the nuts by the dice.
>>
>>84469534
I want to like the Rampant games, but they feel half-baked to me when I try them.
>>
For a roll-under system, is it more legible for situational modifiers to change the roll or change the TN?
>>
>>84471978
Six of one half dozen or the other.
>>
>>84444894
It gets so old when they have long stretches of radio silence only to be broken up by an update saying "Here's why I couldn't do my job this year."
>>
>>84465648
Instead of measuring crowd markers, I would just assume that the crowd is always present in an area, until they're gone.
After the first turn, roll 2d6. On a certain result, the crowd has run away. Every extra turn adds one to the roll, using more damaging weapons or panic-inducing weapons adds one or more.
As long as the crowd is present, there is a certain chance on every ranged attack that a random crowd member has been caught in the crossfire and absorbed the shot.
When the crowd is present, using extremely damaging weaponry like explosives or automatic weapons will automatically kill or injure the crowd, creating areas of difficult terrain where the weapon fired.
If the crowd is already fleeing, then primary exits for them can be jammed and be completely inaccessible while the crowd is fleeing.
While someone is in the crowd, they can use the crowd as cover or opportunities for stealth, perhaps even grabbing someone as a human shield to absorb bullets.
And of course, depending on how well armed the local community is, sometimes the crowd can produce new combatants that whip out a firearm and join the fight, probably just shooting at anyone else with a gun.
>>
>>84463064
I personally enjoy it visually.
The small and the details would suck, currently I enjoy having a look at the army while still fielding around 50 man.
>>84463156
Really doesn't seem that odd, when you want an army repensentation while still carrying around a reasonable amount.
On the kickstarter they wanted to have toughly x2 the amount of units, luckily they didn't go that route as the table and just carrying 100 figures would be too much.
>>
>>84471978
It depends on the number of dice used. If it is a d20 system then either way works. The more dice used then modifying the TN becomes easier. For example in a 2d6 system it is the difference of TN+(M * x) or X+Y-(M * Z). It is not a big difference in most roll under systems but if you are using larger dice pools for some reason the TN becomes simpler. The math isn't going to be hard either way but my 2 cents.
>>
>>84473951
A four-party nightclub shootout is probably the ultimate stress test of a skirmish wargame's rules.

I think something like this could also benefit from a deployment minigame to represent the attackers carefully working their way through the crowd, like Chain of Command, and the game proper starts as soon as shots are fired or a defender realizes that there's a threat. Although I don't necessarily know how much it would be to play "sneaking up behind someone, sucker punching them, and taking their wallet."

>>84474321
I was thinking d20+step die roll under, with standard tasks having a roll-under TN of 17, and difficult tasks having a TN of 12.
>>
>>84474453
In that situation I would go with modifying the TN so that the person rolling doesn't need to try and calculate their odds of d20+dX-Y<TN instead of d20+dx<TN-Y (in practice the modified TN just becomes TN and anyone trying to do the mental math for the dice result modification would just convert the TN to the modified TN anyway, so you might as well skip that step for them). The math isn't all that different but I do think that modifying the TN makes it easier to explain to new players as well since it breaks the rolling process down to two simple steps instead of one complex one. Again just my 2 cents.
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Does anybody have an update on the Bridge Miniatures guy?
His website, Twitter and Facebook are all stuck in 2018 with a "subscribe to your newsletter" post.
Blackhat (who owned Cobalt-1 before) say on their website not to order from Bridge Miniatures due to illness.

Is the guy even still alive? Nobody seems to know.
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>>84477344

I've mentioned this before but I work a few streets away from where they supposedly cast in Hull, it's like a "small business centre" companies can rent rooms out in, will give the place a ring today.
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>>84478021
That would be awesome.
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>>84463064
I was hoping that the kickstarter craze around that Jeanne d'arc game a couple years ago would lead to other companies/developers at least considering smaller scales, but apparently that never happened.

Been some time since the 15mm scifi renaissance (mostly driven by blogspots I think) too.
Smol should be the default mainstream option for platoon+ sized games, instead it never seems to get out of its weirdo corner.
>>
>>84478071
I'd hoped Adeptus Titanicus would take off so we'd get the overflow of players seeking cheaper games. But now I'm convinced no one actually plays that game.

Other "mainstream" diversion into small scales like that Halo game seem to have been DOA too.
>>
>>84478071
>I was hoping that the kickstarter craze around that Jeanne d'arc game
I think that was probably 90% the dragon which was advertised as looking good next to 28mm as well. I occasionally see the monsters on ebay. They do look good and would work in different scales as well.

>>84478094
>Adeptus Titanicus
>cheaper games.
I don't think I've ever heard someone call that game cheap. If you like big stompy robots you could play BattleTech or CAV and each model for that game costs about ~7 bucks depending on how big they are.
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>>84478206
>I don't think I've ever heard someone call that game cheap.
I didn't. I said I'd hoped we'd get refugees from GW pricing.

I remember the original AT and Epic being relatively popular and that supported a whole industry of 3rd party manufacturers. Now I'm convinced that Epic 2nd probably has more players than nu AT.
>>
>>84478206
>90% the dragon
I remember shill platforms like Beasts of War declaring the small scale attractive and "only making sense".
A year or two later that never happened.
Of course I understand that you can't build your hobby on shill platforms...
>>
Anybody remember the company that sold the old starship troopers light infantry models?
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>>84478537
Rebel Minis
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>>84442832
why does anyone give these jokers the time of day. Recall they attacked a company for making lewd minis while thats all they do themselves.
Blatant hypocritical morons.
>>
>>84478647
>>84442832

What's the gossip? I'm always interested
>>
>>84452489
Ever heard of killwager
>>
>>84457085
Does Warmaster even count as an alternative wargame if it was produced by games workshop?
Is there a 10mm fantasy game that essentially is the spiritual successor to Warmaster?

>>84457034
>>84457245
>10mm KoW
A lot of Mantic's identity is a bit like early Dreamworks being a middle finger to Disney. In Mantic's case it is a middle finger to GW. They already made KoW an alternative that has a good following to WHFB and Man O' War (did anyone play that?)
I can see them making another jab at GW by releasing either a PDF for 10mm KoW games or outright announcing another KoW game spinoff with 10mm scale minis.

It wouldn't be out of character for Mantic to do that.
>>
>>84478071
North Star is doing the 18/20mm Wiglaf Age of Penda Dark Ages stuff.
Victrix have started doing WW2 in 1:144 or 12mm.
Warlord started doing tiny Napoleonics.
>>
>>84478071
>15mm SF
Ah yes, yet another Space Nam Stargrunt """inspired""" project
>>
>>84478668
Artemis went on a virtue signalling rant attacking Prodos games for making some tame sexy minis.
I guess he forgot that Hasslefree produces smut minis.
Really have to wonder sometimes.
>>
>>84474547
What do you think is a better way of handling gunshot effects?

In either case, after rolling to hit, the attacker rolls an Effect Die d20, which depending on handgun cartridge class (small, standard, magnum) can either kill, stop (psychologically, they quit after getting shot), or do damage.

Should body armor be a bonus to the saving throw? Or should modify the effect die into a less-dangerous result?
>>
>>84479301
Could you describe what you mean by gunshot effects?

Based on the Effect Die system you have there body armor should probably just be a bonus to the saving throw. The qualifier I would put on that is you might want heavier armor to reduce the Effect Die result, especially if you have damage scaling tied to the Effect Die.
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>>84479999
So for a pistol, which does 2 HP of damage (with most characters having 4HP), if you hit, you roll a d20 with the following example outcomes and threat ranges:
>1-6 Con save or Die
>7-12 Willpower save or Downed
>17-20 Con save or Damage.

Should armor be a bonus on the saving throw, or be added to the effect roll to bias it towards less dangerous results? I'm kinda trying to reverse engineer the statistics found here, where most handgun rounds seem to stop assailants instantly 30-50% of the time, which basically seems to hold true to the folk wisdom of "3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 yards"

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
>>
>>84480181
>roll to hit
>roll for threat type
>roll to resist threat
Isn't that a bit too many steps to resolve an attack for a miniature game?
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>>84480181
I don't know how intricate you want the system to be but based on the Con save vs X system then I would apply body armor to the effect roll and add a line to the effect table:
>21+ No effect

Based on my reading each cartridge class has its own table or applies its own modifiers to the table, either way this allows the armor to fully stop the bullet (prevent any significant damage) that also takes cartridge class into consideration (good against small but comparably negligible against standard or magnum, etc.). You might also want to consider having higher quality armor provide bonuses to CON (either across the board or just in relation to effect die results).
>>
>>84480296
I thought that "roll-to-hit, roll-to-wound, roll saves" was pretty standard. I wouldn't want to go more than a three-step procedure to resolve shooting.

>>84480325
I was thinking of grouping effects into "small handgun, standard handgun, magnum handgun, rifle, shotgun" which have their own 1-20 table to approximate some of the data I'm trying to base this off of.

Armor would basically follow the NIJ classification system, and either you get the armor bonus or you don't - since based on youtube videos of armor testing, it seems like rounds are either stopped in their tracks or blow through lower-rated armor.
>>
>>84479301
I think I'd make it a modifier to the results table, and but the more deadly/injury focused stuff higher.

I think that also provides some design room for other abilities. Like you could add stuff like:
Fearless- This model ignores pinned results
Drug Crazed- This model may choose to change pinned results to minor injuries
Cowardly- This model treats flinch results as pinned results
ect.
>>
Speaking of 15mm, what are some cheap as shit miniatures in this scale? Are there ny plastics?
Looking for fantasy and historical stuff but everything is fine.
>>
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>>84480410
>three steps
That's the GW legacy. Most nowadays do it with two steps. 1: to hit 2: hit effect
And that's enough to allow for all sorts of modifiers to affect the resolution. Cover in step 1, armour, morale in step 2 etc.
>>
>>84481245
Plastic Soldier Company does some plastic historicals.
Otherwise they tend to be a lot cheaper than 28mm anyway.
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>>84480410
Not to get to lost in the weeds but are the effect tables different enough that a modifier for each weapon type wouldn't cover it? The idea would be that while technically body armor would provide bonuses against more powerful weapon groups (unless you want to use an AP system a la 4e-5e 40k, essential tacking that on to the weapon stat along with damage) it would be quicker and easier on the player, instead of having to reference 5 different damage charts with minimal differences (again if these charts are fairly similar) while still conveying that certain weapon groups are more lethal/have greater stopping power/etc. To explain away why the targeted model is taking damage despite them wearing armor, unless they are head to toe in armor they can still get hit in the thigh/arm/other unarmored area, it just decreases the odds of a fatal injury or harm. Again this is just my 2 cents.
>>
>>84479052
There's always the Ion Age at Alternative Armies. And even with GZG there's plenty of character minis among the plain Stargrunts.
Rebel minis and Khurasan aren't known for spacegrunt armies either. There's all sorts of figures out there. Still. Thanks to the 15mm scifi boom back in the day.
>>
>>84481411
It's not exactly linear, as there's a big jump between handguns and centerfire rifles & shotguns. I'll have to playtest it, but my instinct that pre-computing the modifiers into the weapon statline or as a table in the one-page rules would be easier to understand.

>>84481204
I'm not sure how important pinning should be. If guns are appropriately lethal, with most units dying in 2 hits, even if they make saves, staying in cover is going to be heavily incentivized.

I'm also not trying to be make a system for miltary scifi/modern skirmish; I'm trying to do something for handgun gunfights, things like carjackings and self-defense scenarios, police shootouts, and emulating a couple movies scenes from 'Collateral' or 'End of Watch'; because it's not a design space that I think is served well by either RPGs or wargames currently.
>>
>>84463026
Excellent guide anon.
Cuts through the usual roadblocks people hit when trying to get started.
>>
>>84457034
I'm not a fan of Warmaster.
You could look at Fantastic Battles.
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>>84478825
Yeah I thought of Victrix and Warlord. All examples in their own "proprietary" scale. Wonder how long those lines will stick around? Leaving their players stranded on the exclusive scale island.
Wasn't aware of the Wiglaf minis. "Sculpted by Mark Copplestone". So instead of filling out his existing 15mm range, yet another scale. I think they're on to a winner there.
>>
>>84482227
Well, both Victrix and Warlord have the advantage of being historicals, so I don't think it is as much of an issue (also 1:144 isn't really proprietary, while not a common scale it is one that has had miniatures and models made for it relatively frequently). Also, once Warlord has another one or two Waterloo kits out they'll be mostly feature complete, and can survive solely on all the grognards needing to recreate yet another 30 minute engagement that happened as part of Waterloo. That's one of the advantages of going for a specific war/battle as they did with ACW and Waterloo, you don't need five different factions, each with a several units deep roster, and when you squeeze in three-four different units on each sprue you get "done" pretty quick.
>>
>>84482227
Victrix isn't doing 1:144 for proprietary reasons, it's for the purpose of usability with 1:144 scale models, which is a fairly common scale, notably being the standard for Bandai's HG models (which, tbf, are not WW2), which makes buying scenery a bit easier. It's also really close to N-Scale railroads.
>>
My wife knows Pathfinder/D&D but not skirmish games. She was excited to run a PF one-shot and was prepping it but we don't have the people to do it anymore. I'm thinking she can take a lot of her ideas and transfer them to a skirmish game for 1 or 2 players like Frostgrave/Five Parsecs from Home.

Is this a good idea, and if so, how would you sell the idea to her?
Can you give me a sentence or 2 answer of how the rules of a skirmish game differ from a D&D style game?
>>
>>84482513
Fine, there are 1:144 kits out there. However that's mostly an a/c kit scale. Most WW2 tanks come in 1:72, 1:100 and 1:35.
Being close to N-scale isn't much of an argument, as N-scale is a pretty decent fit for 10mm already.
>>
How does OPR's age of fantasy compare to aos, what are the pros and cons of the systems with the exclusion of the size of the playerbase?
>>
>>84482898
Have you ever played one of those board games like Heroquest or Descent? They're like that, but a little less rigid, with measured distances instead of squares and scenarios and game pieces (characters, terrain, wandering monsters, etc) that are custom selected/built/painted by the players. Sometimes they're more slapdash and don't have super high production value, but there's charm in homemade terrain, and being able to hand pick your dudes is nice.
>>
>>84481875
Those were just examples. You could use the same chart for physical damage and morale, is I guess what I was getting at.

Might work well with stuff like covering an area. Like a model covers an area, and people moving though it skip getting shot at and just move to the resolution step. Some resolutions push the model back into cover.

idk, I'm just spitballing.
>>
Is there a pdf for Silver Bayonet floating about anywhere or am I just blind?

Want to read it through before buying it, to see if it's something my group would play or if it'll just be another £20 on my shelf.
>>
>>84483631
Go to the share thread.
Follow instructions.
Look for the publisher, Osprey.
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>>84483760
Many thanks anon, hasn't ever used the share thread before, had no idea about it.
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>>84483866
It has to be obfuscated since there are a significant number of copyright bots and unpaid legal department interns trawling for pirate links, anything posted in the open tends to get nuked within the hour.
>>
>>84482898
Example: Five Parsecs. This one is close to an Rpg model. Rpg lite campaign game. Random tables for character generation, random tables for opponent, patron and job generation. The jobs will be the combat scenarios you play out on the table.
If your wife wants to bring her own narration, she can do that up to a point. But it will be more a filling out the blanks narration, trying to make sense of the random tables.
Beyond that there will be a story that the tabletop battle itself brings forth. You'll get the unlikely hero/the unlikely coward, a leader that can't seem to motivate his troops, plans and strategies that don't pan out, not much different from an rpg encounter really. What will be different is a higher lethality of these encounters and less options to mitigate that lethality.

Don't limit yourself to solo/coop games. Song of Blades and Heroes for example is an easy to start fantasy game with little rules overhead that allows you to build a small warband with traits/special rules as you see fit. Your wife might enjoy seeing how her little band holds its own against yours. Play little 2 or 3 battle campaigns.

Or Pulp Alley. This one again closer to an rpg one-shot (has ready made campaigns too). A bit more narrative focused as the scenarios have you working through a string of plot points, which can represent any sort of encounter or task and don't need to be combat centric at all. In fact you could play the game entirely as a social combat affair.
>>
>>84482898
Is your wife single?
>>
Anyone played Havoc dwarves in OPR recently. I'm looking at building a 1K list using the Lost Kingdom legally distinct "not" Chaos Dwarves. I just want to know if they are in a good place or not. I mean OPR I hear is rather well balanced so I hope it's not an issue.

My list for anyone who cares

Iron Champion 1hand weapon with standard attached to 10 warriors with just a sgt and spears.
5 berserkers
Iron Champion with one hand weapon and Pain Forger attached to 5X immortals with full command
Abyssal leader with 2 hand weapons and hex caster, attached to 10X shooters with one full command.
3 golems
2 Heavy artillery with one rocket and one heavy mortar.
>>
>>84486232
>if they're in a good place or not
If you take a hypercompetitive "buy a new army every codex release" mindset to a game built for fun and ease, you're going to have a bad time. Good luck though anon.
>>
>>84486353
nah it's more so, I gave up 40k due to them literally throwing some factions into the shitter for like a year, and I just wanted to know if chaos dwarfs were decent or in a problematic state.
I would build the army anyways, if you have seen the lost kingdom sculpts for their various factions, it's impossible to not want to get and print something of theirs. Also I've been a chaos dwarf fan since they got squatted so my faction is already decided, good or otherwise.
I don't think my list is too 'competitive' either. I hope.
>>
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WTF is this

I was expecting better from the authors of Infinity
>>
>>84483545
I appreciate the feedback. I'm sorta flying on the seat of my pants from a stray thought about "RPG gunfights get bogged down in irrelevant detail, I should hack a wargame" to "Modern self-defense and police shootouts aren't really covered by existing skirmish rules"
>>
>>84488680
what the fuck
>>
>>84486232

From what I've gathered they have a well-rounded roster. Not really sure if there are enough Opr players to create a meta the way it exists in 40k and aos.
>>
>>84489264
That's good. My buddy and I are going to try out a few armies, I think he's printed the davinci guys and the "not" lizardmen. So we will start from there, getting all the chaos dwarfs from Long Kingdom will be like 120 euros so I think I will space it out over a few months, get stuff printed and painted, then order more.
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>>84490090

So have you actually played the game?
>>
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>>84488680
Thanks anon. That image is all I need to see about Warcrow and makes me absolutely disregard CorvusBelli as a company able to deliver a satisfying Fantasy range.
That's it.
Their 20 years of making Infinity mean nothing now.
>>
>>84488680
new WoW figure?
>>
Are there any games focused on submarine warfare?
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>>84491462
yes
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>>84491485
cool
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>>84491462
/hwg/ might be a better place to ask.
>>
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>>84490725
It's better than some Infinity models tho, innit?
>>
How much does making molds for plastic minis even cost? Whats the process?
>>
>>84492653
It depends. Generally speaking, though, it'll be at least in the tens of thousands of dollars to have the molds fabricated to be used (outsourced) in Chinese factories.

SioCast is apparently providing a lower cost solution, but it uses proprietary plastics and has mixes reviews of the final results as they dial in on an ideal formula.
>>
>>84488680
I unironically like this for some reason
>>
>>84492735
The real selling point to people in the industry is that Siocast is a Spanish, not Chinese, company. You're dealing with a company that actually works to Western standards and isn't blatantly trying to extort you.
>>
>>84478071
>>84478206
The problem with the Joan of Arc game is that the miniatures, other than the big monsters, are in 'true' 15mm scale, so they look small compared to most other 15mm scale minis. The dragon works great for 28mm, and would probably even work for larger scale games.
It's real big.
>>
>>84494069
>Mad westerner who hasn't seen the light of President Xi
Why even live?
>>
>>84494069
It isn't just that- Siocast will essentially lease you an ATM sized casting machine that you can use to do in house production, which allows more exacting QC, less wait time on multi-purpose factories, no international shipping issues, and a better fit for mid scale production.
That's a lot of points I could see being very attractive to the small business scale most of the hobby games market operates at.
>>
>>84488680
Misses a beard
>>
>>84494359
Yeah, only the biggest operators in business can afford in-house injection plastics, everyone else have to outsource, mostly to China, but there are some UK and USA options. Regardless, you have to be able to sell product in hundreds if not thousands of sprues to justify the costs.
>>
>>84490090
get the v2.50 lists, don't underestimate the power of fucking with people's morale tests for havoc dwarfs, have fun
>>
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>>84488680
Getting my PopCorn to enjoy this shitshow.
>>
>>84495786
It will still make more money than 90% of games posted in /awg/
:/
>>
>>84447018
>>84447841
>>84449814
>>84463026
>>84483150
>>84484162
appreciate the help and thoughtful responses, thanks
>>
>>84494111
I own them and they work fine next to demonworld stuff
>>
>>84490507
Going to play this friday, assuming the armies are all printed. Worst case we will try the skirmish level game I, with unpainted figures I guess.
>>
>>84496280
Also check out battle systems. They do our made modular terrain on heavy card stock at a reasonable price. Main sets come with a good quality mat too
>>
>>84491939
VGH... the very first Infinity mini ever sculpted...
>>
>>84492735
Why is siocast only being shilled in the last 2 month?
>>
>>84495786
I'm getting memories. Do any of you remember this fucking card game where you scratched out some parts of a card then you mailed them to the manufacturer to get more? The name eludes me but the art and icon placement reminds me of it.
>>
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Anyone have suggestions for 28mm scale nobles and other poncy looking types with powdered wigs?
>>
>>84503414
Carnevale's Patrician faction are poncy, but there are only a few wigs of the powdered variety. They sell individual models though, so you don't have to get a bunch of non-wigged ponces if it's a dealbreaker.
>>
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>>84503301
Like lottery scratch offs?
>>84503414
I can only think of pic related. I'm sure there are more though.
>>
>>84503414
Eureka has a lot of them, from Bach to Frederick the Great and his court.

https://www.eurekaminuk.com/collections/civilians-abd-vignettes
>>
>>84503414
Foundry too:

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/18th-century-civilians
>>
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>>84503904
Yes.
Google says it's battle cards.
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>>84504197
What the fuck
>>
>>84494359
>>84492735
Siocast isn't just lower-cost. Siocast provides all the production advantages to a company that metal does with no hazmat. Including recycling blown casts, allegedly, as well as using the same molds and masters as you maintained for pewter. Note that I'm not saying anything about product quality here, just production efficiencies.
But Sio is looking like a magic bullet for companies that have seen their mats costs literally quadruple in the last five years while shipping costs tear and fuck them a >third< new asshole. I genuinely don't know how long it's going to be before/if Iron Wind will make the switch, but unless something gives in the tin market they're going to be in really bad shape soon.

>>84502780
It's maturing as a technology, and companies are starting to learn how to part the molds correctly. It's still horrible fraying cheese-soft trash that reminds me of the vinyl dogshit Ral Partha was peddling in the 1980s and Catalyst in the 2000s. But some of the companies are getting harder mixes and placing mold lines in cuttable locations, which means models that don't look like complete shit are starting to filter. out. It doesn't hurt that there are now multiple major gaming companies using Sio mixes (Reaper and CB) plus several licenses that people have been looking forward to like Warzone and Confrontation 4: Electrickest Boogadoodoo being rumored to pick it up. And at the end of the fucking day it still holds detail better than PVC or vinyl.

>>84495159
Yeah. WGA now has a US-based, relatively cheap contract HIPS-injection casting service. Labor costs are looking to kick up prices by about 70c a mini. Printing costs will kick it up a little more, of course. There was already a contractor in the Great Lakes area working with Dream Pod Nine, but their work was.. not great. They're still making plastic models to ~1995 standards, while WGA is currently making stuff that rivals mid-2000s GW and absolutely wipes the walls with Warlord.
>>
>>84505443
My Sio test minis from Monster whatever. The Cyberpunk guys. Persistent flash, some very slight bubbling around deep folds, and a very "grainy" surface texture. Feels kinda like resin that's been cast with a talcum powder release. Much of the detail is very soft. The material itself is (as I said above) about the same hardness as a cheddar cheese... and just as prone to crumbling.
>>
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>>84505479
Same minis after cleaning. Required extensive, extremely dextrous slice cuts to pull off the mold lines and reshape some deformed parts. It's very easy to overrun a cut and accidentally take off a chunk of detail as well. Scraping = fraying, without exception. I've experimented with a heat gun and so far I haven't see slumping in an assembled model before the point the surface starts to shine-up and get melty, at around 200 F or ~95 C. They do start to get very flexible and soft at around 150-160F, they just hold their shape for a bit.
The texture holds paint nicely but seems to shed particulates into the paint even when the model is scrubbed well. This is a sign that the plastic runs a risk of depolymerizing over time, which means you're looking at minis that crumble or turn into glues over the years. Whether that's "5" or "25" is going to largely dictate the long-term success of the technique over large resin plate-printers. and/or finding a better source of uncontaminated tin. Or going back to lead.
>>
>>84505479
That guy with the moldline should be on the stretcher instead of the chick.
>>
>>84505479
>>84505518
I wouldn't bother with these minis if they were free.

Christ.
>>
>>84478094
I play AT.
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>>84478206
But battletech robots are fucking tiny.
I want BIG tiny big robots.
Plus I like the AT background. And it's not as daunting a system to learn as fucking battletech
>>
>>84506042
Post battle report.
>>
The farther Rumbleslam gets from generic elves in speedos, the more fun it seems.
>>
>>84506391
And one for the furry braapfags.
>>
>>84503962
>>84503952
>>84503904
>>84503682
Thanks anons, going to get my fop on.
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>>84506407
my man
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>>84506391
>tin khan
lolol
I'm going to have to steal that one.
>>
Man, I need to stop buying coomer models until I find somewhere I can use them. I have a vague idea of an all-female stargrave crew that's a space princess, the last of her royal guards/servants, and an all-female merc crew her advisor hired because the princess can't be trusted to keep it in her suspiciously skimpy pants with men around. Then for some of the fantasy or generic sluts, maybe a harem to add as details for a Mystic Skies tower? But I don't have anything specific planned for that game yet and don't even have a tower to test it with.
>>
>>84508989
Post the minis you've got and we can help with ideas.
>>
>>84506050
They made Battletech: Alpha Strike so it's easy to learn.
If you want bigger battlemechs, either 3d print them or look on ebay for Mechwarrior: Dark Age/clickytech mechs.
The existing tripod mechs are about as large as large AT titans.
Heck, some twitch show printed mechs to be 1ft tall. That's a BIG tiny big robot.
>>
>>84509021
Most of them aren't even assembled yet. I've got most of the sci-fi girls from Bombshell and some from Reaper, then some naked girls in various saucy poses, and some dancers/harem girls.

The ones I really have no idea for are the bunny girls sculpted by Brother Vinni. Classic bunny leotard, ears, tail, a few of them have modern guns and the rest are mostly just standing or lounging around.
>>
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>>84450121
These are Mantic plague zombies painted with glow in the dark green pigments.
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>>84509064
>Bunny girls
Space travelling magician/casino owner assistants/bodyguards
>>
>>84506391
>>84506407
>not posting my man Djinn Diesel
>>
>>84509064
I'm going to say: rogue sexbots for all of them.
Maybe convert a few with robot bits or metallic paint jobs.
>>
>>84509064
Female bodyguards of a deranged dictator.
>>
this is quite possibly the most boomer video I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u4WBu5fvr0

interested in the system though
>>
>>84505518
try 600 grit sand paper. it can smooth out some of the edge fraying you've got on them
>>
>>84511043
What the fuck is this
>>
>>84512598
>>84511043
I love how the music isn't edited in it's just his literal Boombox playing in the background.
I wouldn't be surprised if he waited to film the sections until his preferred song came on the classic rock radio station
>>
Anyone else think One Page Rules is fucking up their Grimdark Future ruleset? It seems like they are making all the armies too generic and none of them really have unique play styles anymore.
>>
>get some TT combat trolls on sale cos I think they're neat
>send picture of box to friend
>immediate response
>GW TROLLS ARE SO MUCH BETTER
>literally can't even know what the models look like as the photo sucks and there's basically zero online
>look up gw equivalent
>Literally 5 times the price
>models are 50% torsos with abs that look like something a 12 year old girl that just discovered anime would scribble in her notebook
>third pose so fucking boring and uninspired they don't even give it a 3d view on their site

oh my fucking god why are people like this
>>
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Anyone of /tg/ play Dystopian Wars?
>>
>>84513754
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>>84513786
yeah come to think of it the law states you can't use music without permission UNLESS it's from some old boombox in the background of a boomer video. Yeah that'll fly in court.
>>
>>84513599
because GW sculpts are always more detailed and dynamic looking, even if the art /designs are bad
>>
>>84513826
Youtube has an automatic claim system that checks any uploaded video's audio. Playing it via a boombox might actually be enough to bypass the check.
>>
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>>84513864
Do you think that background audio in a video isn't part of the actual videos audio?
>>
>>84513826
Finally someone that actually reads the law all these idiots don't know this
>>
>>84513885
Since the automatic check is done via a hash chain, sufficiently altering the audio/video can bypass the system. It's why you'll sometimes see copyrighted videos in frames or audio that has its base levels raised, just to get past the autocheck.
Since the audio is being distorted using an analog method, it might actually work.
>>
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>>84513930
If you think that audio is altered enough to bypass anything then you're a dumbdumb doodoo head.
>>
>>84513930
if we knew how the hash computation works exactly there could be a way to alter the audio so that peceived quality changes just slightly but the hash is completely off
>>
>>84513848
Lol this is some paypig cope.
>>
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>>84513770
>>
>>84513433
Do you have any examples? The main thing I can think of that might be relevant is the reduction in the number of units with 2+ or 6+ saves
>>
>>84514462
I mostly play a Human Defense Force army and they largely eliminated the ability for commanders to issue orders to buff infantry. It used to be they could issue one order per activation and choose one order from a list of orders to issue (similar to the Imperial Guard in 40k). Now though, commanders have to pick a trait that costs points and can only issue the single order associated with that trait. And they also limited the number of heros you can have to 1 per every 500 points of your army, so it's not like you can just add a bunch of commanders to have all the traits covered.

That's one example. And looking at the army books, it seems like the only real difference between armies are their quality and defense stats. There don't seem to be any unique mechanics that make each army truly different from one another. I get that the point of Grimdark Future is to get rid of the rules bloat of 40k, but I think OPR is going too far in the opposite direction and almost doesn't have enough rules (if that makes any sense).
>>
>>84506050
>But battletech robots are fucking tiny.
>I want BIG tiny big robots.
I'm a fan of the CAV models for that. 1:144 but chunkier and some of the big ones are fuckhueg. You can also poke around in 15mm/1:100 lines. I'd normally suggest Dream Pod Nine but at this point they're actually WORSE than GW with a lot of their pricing.

>>84512325
I use a nail polishing pad for them at this point, although I do get some crumbling when I use abrasives on them.
>>
>>84513599
>This troll kit is actually godlike though. It's got a ton of bits, it's not monobuild.
>>
>>84514173
>>
>>84515114
Personally I found that 2.50 made me enjoy most of my armies more but I've only tried it with Tyranids so far. I do have IG though and the lack of multiple orders is a shame, but on the upside it saves you wasting points on orders you might not need. I'm sure there's discussion about it on the Discord though, the dev is pretty active
>>
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Get the fuck in here, STALKERS
https://wargamesatlantic.com/blogs/news/ultra-moderns-near-future-survey
>>
>>84513848
>>84515792
they are multipart, but they kind of functionally end up being monopose because the arms are designed as pairs that are only supposed to be attached one way. with a lot of modern GW kits they do this kinda fake multipart where they've eliminated the poseable joints in favor of these shaped cuts that require a ton of time with the knife or dremel (nevermind patching the gaps later) to repose.
it does have a number of extra heads and some neat accessories. unfortunately you can't get away from the usual flaws. namely that GW overprices everything by 100% or more, and the modern designs are just such uninspired CAD trash. you could take some of the bits and use them as pieces of your own models. heads, arms, etc. I don't think there's anything you can do with the bodies. they look worse in the flesh than they do in the photo and that's saying something.
>>
>>84513599
Send him the Reaper trolls page and tell him they cost even less?
Some people still think that brand names and sunk costs = quality
>>
>>84513599
Those TT trolls looks really cool, how big are they?
>>
>Make mistake building model concrete shacks
>they actually look like a poor slum dweller built them

I'm learning I guess.
>>
>>84517292
You've got the workings of a great Ork scratchbuilder in you.
>>
>>84517292
Lets see! Proudly display your work anon
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>>84517356
Thanks Anon, one of the shacks is supposed to be burned out, is it too grim to recycle a fucked up skeleton with no legs into a burned casualty in the doorway? already took his spear to cut up into window bars
>>
>>84517484
>is it too grim

nah, a new hope was like PG or something and they got away with it
>>
>>84517484
>is it too grim to recycle a fucked up skeleton with no legs into a burned casualty in the doorway?
Nah. Legless burned skeletons is like playschool-tier shit.
>>
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>>84517419
Shack next to a ruined corner test.

Some idiot painted the concrete shack interior before gluing the sub-assemblies together because foamboard doesn't warp right? But looking at the photo I don't think the warping is visible, especially on a tabletop.

>just noticed the guide says to hide the interior with black card in the windows anyway

>>84517504
>>84517497
I think you're right.
>>
>>84513599
Dunno, but the TT Combat guys have 3 toes and 5 fingers. Seems like they were copying someone else's homework without paying attention. Not the worst models I've seen, but I can see why someone wouldn't be impressed. Not a fan of the modern take from GW either. They got it right before with the metal models.
>>
>>84517214

not the biggest trolls in the world but large enough to appropriately look like trolls (for scale the bases are 40mm)

>>84518163
>Seems like they were copying someone else's homework without paying attention

or they were paying very close attention and wanted to release stuff with some oldhammer flavour

the minis themselves actually look pretty great. as usual i think it's hard to judge because of the usual combination of a) lack of images online and b) questionable choice of paintjobs and photos you tend to get from small mini companies.

was thinking of making a start on them so might upload some photos of em unpainted for the 1 people that might be interested
>>
>>84518163
Why does the toe/finger count matter?
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here's how those tt trolls look out of the box btw

just gave em a bath before constructing em so was a good time to get pictures
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>>84518608
>or they were paying very close attention and wanted to release stuff with some oldhammer flavour
the WHFB trolls had four fingers (or three fingers one thumb, if you're pedantic) and four toes, if that is what you are alluding to.

>>84519035
There is not a single animal on the planet afaik that has a different number of fingers than toes. Just stand out as anatomically ...questionable. And sure people will say "it's fantasy though" and I'll say it's bad creature design if you don't follow basic anatomy rules. You may not consciously process these things, but you do know how a muscle and a bone form a joint, if that isn't translated properly in a creature design it stick out.

Not trying to shit on the models, just as I said: I can see why you wouldn't be impressed with an obvious oversight like that.
>>
>>84519103
nice, hope to see WIP updates

didn't realise the TT Combat fantasy range was so big until this thread, albeit most are variants of halflings
>>
>>84519154
Dude, dogs have five digits front, four digits back. It gets even crazier from there.
>>
>>84519417
look up dewclaws on dog breeds. Depending on the breed they'll have a fith digit on both front and black legs and some breeds have the back dewclaw removed to conform to standards.
The point I was making is that you have to know the rules before you break them though. And those models don't look like that is what was going on.
>>
>>84519643
Nta but you're so hyper focused on one aspect you might be on the spectrum buddy
>>
>>84519661
On the contrary. I was just making a throw away comment that I'm not super impressed. But if people take that as a personal slight somehow and respond, I'll answer.
>>
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>>84513599
Troll Soup miniatures are my favorite. I actually grabbed a bunch of their heads to put on other stuff.
>>84519103
Look pretty good. I was real close to buying these. I might when I go to pad out my trolls.
>>84519154
I think it's good creature design honestly. Each one should have a different number of fingers and toes though.
>>
>>84519643
The point is there is no hard rule like you are implying. It's a general tendency. A rule of thumb, if you pardon the pun.
>>
>>84519308
Yeah the last couple Kickstarters padded things out.
>>
>>84519736
>I think it's good creature design honestly. Each one should have a different number of fingers and toes though.
Yeah I could see that being a neat design choice. Especially with the regeneration thing etc, it could be a nod to their body being like a giant tumor, constantly growing.

>>84519744
Sure, the models just look a little unbalanced imo. Three big toes on the feet and five fingers gives you an uneven distribution of detail across the sculpt if that makes sense.
>>
>>84519736
>I think it's good creature design honestly. Each one should have a different number of fingers and toes though.
I like it
Gives me Princess and the Goblin vibes.
>>
>>84519689
Throw away comment(s)*
>>
>>84519801
Wizards
No sense of right and wrong
>>
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I had to admit, when Mantic first introduce Riftforged Orcs I did not care for the lore. But I liked their design. Surprisingly they're designed to be built easier and I think they'll rank up quite nicely for Kings of War or for any rank and file Fantasy game.
>>
I'm trying to find something fun and small that me and some friends can get into. What are your favorite games that are on the smaller side? Preferably some sort of fantasy rather then sci-fi.
>>
>>84521391
KoW:Vanguard play with pretty much standard fantasy stuff. I like the game play.
>>
>>84519154
What about Hemingway cats?
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>>84521597
they're freaky
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>>84520909
I actually really like those sculpts, is mantic selling these armored lads separately or only as part of an army bundle
>>
>>84522442
Yes, but they are an example of naturally occurring animals with more digits on the front than back limbs.
>>
>>84522873
some calfs are born with legs on their heads. That's a mutation and in the case of those cats they're bred because people think it looks cute. Bad argument if you want to make a case for a rule.

Seriously, I just said I'm not in love with the models, didn't even call them bad. Just calm your tits and move on.
>>
>>84522923
Its still a natural consistently occurring mutation without human interference.
>>
played first two games of OPR grimdark firefight today. Really enjoyed them, easy to teach to my buddy who struggles to learn new rules. we had a blast, fast paced, relaxed and lots of death and shooting. looking forward to playing again
>>
>>84524523
How long does firefight take compared to the base game? I want to give it a go but I'm not sure it's meaty enough to replace the base game in one of my regular sessions.
>>
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does anyone know the manufacturer of this miniature?
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>>84524823
Reaper Miniatures
Human Warlock, Leisynn
SKU: 14060
>>
Whats a good more elite style army for KoW? preferably in plastic.
>>
>>84521391
Relicblade has a really small footprint (2x2 is most common), with rules that are quick to learn. Games go pretty quickly, so you can easily fit in a few games regardless of available tablespace or time. Model count is low, and it's pretty common to have each model in your warband being unique (a few exceptions to Bone & Darkness, or Lone Guard, since they have some dirt cheap models that are easy to double up on). Sculpts have a lot of character to them, and the guy behind it (does the sculpting, rules, and packing on his own) is a pretty cool dude - if you order any of the faction starters, he usually writes you a thank you note with an artwork sketch.
>>
>>84524962
thank you very much for your help. hope to make him my next warband leader
>>
>>84522923
They're trolls. Mythical magical creatures. People don't get upset at cyclops having one eye or dragons having the wrong number of limbs.
>>
>>84522677
You can get them separately as a regiment (20 orcs). The kit gives you the option to build Riftforged Legionnaire's (hammer and shield) or Reborn Legionnaire's (two handed maul).
>>
>>84526573
I do. It drives me to madness.
>>
>>84528654
Go home, Lovecraft. You're drunk again.
>>
YOU THOUGHT BEYOND THE GATES OF ANTARES WAS DEAD! DEAD, YOU SAID! BUT THE MADMEN ACTUALLY DID IT!
>>
>>84521391
>What are your favorite games that are on the smaller side? Preferably some sort of fantasy rather then sci-fi.
Seconding Relic Blade as something cheap, fun, and relatively easy to run. It doesn't take extra models or huge amounts of useless cardboard to run (although I don't like the card system), it's got some good-looking models, and it's technically model-agnostic as long as you can find Porcs or whatever. Games run about 3-10 models per side and take ~45-60 minutes to set up, run, and clean up. It doesn't have good long-term campaign options if you want to connect games together.

My other recommendation would be to check out 7TV fantasy. It's meant to run something more like cheap stop-motion Harryhausen-style fantasy movies than a modern dungeonpunk fantasy vibe. It does take a little more bookkeeping and paper on the table, but it's much, much more flexible at running other stuff and allows for you to use a few more models, customize models, and use some actual small squads or monsters. Functional "army" size is somewhere between 5 and 20 models. It plays best on a card table or larger, ~3'x3' feet

Bushido is cluttered as Hell and does Japanese/Indonesian fantasy on a 24"x24" board. Little room for customization, fixed profiles, but very tight balance and a starter set is most of what you need to actually play.

Frostgrave is another popular option. If you happen to have a couple hundred bucks to spend grabbing some models and a whole shitload of terrain. FG plays best on a 48" wide table with a shitload of terrain and 10-12 models to switch in and out of your warband. You also need a couple dozen bonus wandering monster minis depending on what scenraios you want to run. Fortunatley these are easy to get and the sets total about $100 to $150. It has some customizing, and a solid campaign mode that's easy to understand and quick to run. Very good scenario support

KoW Vanguard makes many crippled profiles and wierd choices but it works okay.
>>
>have stupid number of spare Stargrave arms and headfs

How well do these fit on Anvil industries bodies?
>>
>>84522923
Its okay anon, I think its an interesting point and other anons dog piling you for talking about model sculpt design on a fucking forum for models are retarded.
Consistent digit number is fairly consistent. There are exceptions, its interesting to see. Not really sure what the problem is. If the sculptor made a specific decision to make mutants, cool, if they just didn't know it might work out or just show they don't know. Easy.
This whole bit where anons concernparent about
>YoU HaVe AuTiSM
for noticing things about the world is inane.
>>
>>84528654
Fair cop
>>
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Will Warlord ever do Rogue Trooper minis again? Why'd they stop making them?
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>>84530930
Who knows? They might do a rerun or a wholly new game if they fancy. Or not. Atm they're shilling for Slaine, so AD2000 is clearly on table.
>>
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>>84530930
Have some Copplestone SF mercs painted blue.
>>
>>84524544
Depends on game size and player experience, but I think 30 minutes to 60 minutes is about average.
>>
>>84528951
>>84525250
>>84521391
>>84528951
Thirding Relicblade. Fun game made entirely by one guy. Entire ruleset can be bought digitally, so technically model agnostic but the sculpts have a lot of character to them. Designed for short, 3 to 9 mission long campaigns. Has a 2 player starter set.
Also recommending Deep Wars/Shadow Sea.
Both are 2'x2' sized board, 3-10 model count skirmish games with a lot of flavor, using the Song Of Blades and Heroes ruleset as a base. Deep Wars is the underwater game while Shadow Sea is the ground version. Both have 2-player starter sets and have .stls of most of the range.
There's also Hordes of the Things (HotT), which is absolutely model agnostic and usually played in 15mm, but can be run at any scale. Uses bases instead of individual models, usually 6-15 bases per side.
>>
>>84524523
Have they changed the rules to make it more distinct from Grimdark Future? Last time I played Grimdark Future Firefight, it pretty much just used the same rules as Grimdark Future, just with fewer models and no vehicles.
>>
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Managed to build some more last night. Mantic Riftforged Orcs rank up pretty well surprisingly. I bought some Northern Alliance Clansmen awhile back and they were a pain to rank up since they sit on 20mm bases. Wished Mantic would keep them on 25mm bases.
>>
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Void 2 tactics is here, which would you get? £3.50 for these rules and figure sets.

I want Seb to get a painter because his paintjob on the new model is really bad and isnt good for selling the model (his other models arent as bad but he should keep to original colour schemes too)
>>
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for those interested here's a rough idea of how the TT trolls look after se construction and cleanup

Despite the fairly large amount of supports and random mould stuff they were actually fairly easy to clean up, partially because the resin itself is pretty soft (although still feels somewhat oily even after some aggressive cleaning) and they seemed pretty strategic with where the worst of the mould lines etc would end up (i.e. out of view) so they're pretty damn nice for the money

might paint one up shortly to see how they paint
>>
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Excuse the crappy picture, I don't have a proper set up.

A few weeks back I was looking for recommendations of Soviet cosmonauts and anon here suggested using Wargames Atlantic canon fodder bodies with CP Models heads. I have finally finished the Stargrave crew using their suggestion. The Heads were a bit squished and narrow but I was able to fix it with green stuff. Thanks for the suggestion anon!
>>
what are the best skirmish games?
I checked out frostgrave but it seems like I need 20 'vapor snakes' for the first mission
core space seems alright.

What skirmish games use the least amount of models while still being good? If you have an answer to a better question down this line of thinking please feel free to respond as well
>>
>>84532896
kill team needs 6-12 models and normally come in a single box for the entire team.
Infinity is the same-ish and normally get models individually or in theme boxes.
Thats all I know desu
>>
Some one explain why the players of warmachine let it die horribly instead of keep playing the edition they liked?
>>
>>84532896

you can always just use tokens for mobs but Frostgrave can be a little difficult to get into as it's a pvpve rpg game more than a pvp skirmish game.

Infinity is probably the most popular skirmish size game but the minis are expensive as fuck (although you can still just proxy and nobody will care all that much). it can also be pretty obtuse even though a lot of the core concepts are easy to grasp.

SAGA needs relatively few models that can be obtained pretty/very cheaply and has a number of settings to play in, but getting ahold of official materials can be a) a pain in the ass as it always seems out of stock everywhere and b) expensive for what you get, as ideally you need a core rulebook, a setting book (which has boards for each faction) and faction dice, and they're all pretty expensive for what they ultimately are. there are ways around that of course, but it's mostly a pain in the ass.

kings of war vanguard I think gets the balance right between accessibility, depth and unique mechanics (i.e. exploding 8s). the cost of entry is also pretty low, although the official vanguard sets aren't the same value per model as regular kow.

and on that note regular KoW is kinda the cheapest, easiest and least model heavy game to get into, as you can play it just with cardboard movement trays and zero actual models (although the combat is very much based around streamlined bass battles and pretty simple compared to Vanguard's system)
>>
>>84533059

turbotism

that's kinda what happens when you exclusively cater your game to toxic turbo autists though
>>
>>84533153
It has some amazing models, I remember thinking the way the damage on the mechs worked was really cool. Never got to play it.

I may get some models as a hobby thing. Playing wargames is like some holy quest with how hard it can be to get into a game
>>
>>84533202

yeah the game itself is fucking great, as are the models, but the community completely fucking ruined it so it's only worth playing casually

also pp are a whole other trashfire of their own so getting models is gonna be pretty hard as well (although I don't know how the second hand market is these days with the game collapsing as hard as it did)

as far as I know they force you into using a mobile app these days as well so that might be an issue if you can't get cards/stats
>>
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wow
>>
the pricing for warmachine is madness, fck me
>>
>sprue shop has one of each stargrave sprue for less than a Stargrave box

Much better than buying the boxes. 5 of each box gives you lots of options.
>>
>>84533015
>>84533126
Yeah I was thinking some small model count game with pvpve or pve content since my gamer group probably isn't going to have the chops to just walk into infinity or kill team given the price of kill team and the competitiveness of infinity
>>
>>84533482
>given the price of kill team
one box 2 max isnt that high
>>
>>84533506
I was thinking moreso the rulebook and accessories but eh, I could just print them out.
>>
I feel like its impossible to play /awg/ at this point. Local clubs only play /SWG/ and /GW/
>>
>>84533472
Just make sure they're all in stock and not backordered. I got my Gaslands sprue off him very quick, but held off on the Stargrave offer since that was the case
>>
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I can not shift that melancholic sadness when I see a dead game
>>
what tabletop skirmish game is the most fit and healthy
>>
>>84534128
literally just going outside and participating in street fights
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>>84534145
not that, I mean which one attracts the most healthy and hygienic people. Possibly also the most attractive people
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>>84534156
gaslands.
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>>84529861
Anybody tried it?
>>
>>84533472
Including the new lady sprues?

Because you get four to a box so one of each of the first three should be less than a whole box.
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>>84533472
whats a sprue shop
>>
>>84533304
>nukes their own forum repeatedly for years
>surprised when nothing grows and people go elsewhere.
>>84533347
What are you looking for? Most wargamers have some Warmachine collecting dust somewhere.
>>
>>84457759
Partly it's realism. Historically, large scale infantry engagements couldn't be maintained for very long due to the exhausting nature of the fighting, and units would typically disengage and re-engage numerous times in an attempt to recover as much as possible, re-arm when weapons were damaged, and hopefully grind down their opponents via attrition. It was rare for an infantry formation to fight continuously until one side was a clear victor.
>>
>>84525250
>>84531662
>>84528951


Alright, i'm sold on Relicblade, my only question is how often do they restock? I really want the pig people but they're currently out of stock.
>>
>>84531709
Why don't you check the rules yourself? I haven't played it but I know it has rules for climbing and jumping and taking unique damage to each character.
>>
>>84535917
checkout wok's hogmen, i much prefer them to relicblade's
>>
>>84533059
You cannot fathom how dogshit most of the community was. They were the sweatiest, worst-mannered 40k rejects you could imagine. And PP kept catering to them instead of the RPG crowd that allowed them to launch Warmachine in the first place. Consequently, they drove everyone else away, which worked just fine for a while, because competetivefags are probably the biggest paypigs around.
But once they leave, they are also gone forever.



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