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Yesterday, there was a thread about the Russian Civil War, and it got me interested in running a homebrew campaign on it. The basic idea was having to roleplay characters in a somewhat post-apocalyptic sense, in that players need to manage resources like food, bullets and other essentials for their village, and deal with other militias from the various factions that sprung up after October Revolution. I was hoping for the combat to have a heavy emphasis on strategy but I'm afraid of making a game too complicated for any of my friends to learn and play. So, my question is two-old:

1.Is there a strategy-focused military-sim that also has character creation and roleplay elements, not to mention diplomacy for the other factions?

2.If there are none and I'm making this myself, what kind of system or systems would be best for the aforementioned list that I gave?
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>>84336188
I would advise you make the setting a fantasy rather than IRL one, because it allows for creative freedom. After all- IRL the Russian Civil War ended a specific way.

My idea for it (cause I've thought on it in the past) is flipping the script- OTL the Reds held the major cities, while the Whites held the country side, so instead the Whites or a fantastic equivalent (who I'd make sort of proto-fascists because in Russia there are no good guys) hold the major cities while the Reds hold the countryside (which I think would be more fitting for a peasant militia theme).

You'd start in a central capital city, and the players home base is an armored train that they can upgrade through the campaign (they can get some nicer living quarters, some space to hold vehicles, hot-air-balloon for recon before missions- and a railway gun. This is historically accurate btw- the Russians made great use of Armored Trains in WW2, and Trotsky himself used an Armored Train as the Soviet Minister of War during the Russian Civil War). So you'd have a 'pick a mission from the map' sort of deal and work your way out from there.

Making it fantastical also lets you introduce some monsters to fight, and lets you play around with more elements- like both sides could have tanks they use while OTL the Russians lacked a major tank program that either side could have used.

Also a part of the 'diplomatic' elements could be the handling of foriegn volunteers- as both the Allied and Central powers orchestrated military operations to try to halt the successes of the Red Army.
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>>84336260
>I would advise you make the setting a fantasy rather than IRL one, because it allows for creative freedom.
You're probably right about making it set in a fantasy world, instead of the real world. but I kind of wanted it to be down to earth. Maybe a world that's low fantasy mixed with gunpowder fantasy would be best to go about it?

>My idea for it (cause I've thought on it in the past) is flipping the script- OTL the Reds held the major cities, while the Whites held the country side, so instead the Whites or a fantastic equivalent (who I'd make sort of proto-fascists because in Russia there are no good guys) hold the major cities while the Reds hold the countryside (which I think would be more fitting for a peasant militia theme).
What about the other factions? I don't want this to be solely a Red vs White thing. I also want to include the Greens, Blacks and various independence/nationalist factions as well. But you're right about flipping the script.

>You'd start in a central capital city, and the players home base is an armored train that they can upgrade through the campaign (they can get some nicer living quarters, some space to hold vehicles, hot-air-balloon for recon before missions- and a railway gun.
Ah, but that's where the problem starts, since I wanted the game to be viewed in a post-apocalyptic after the collapse of the Russian Empire in which the players would have to navigate themselves to survive. Starting in the capital, or already being in a faction would negate that, though maybe that could be optional if that's what they want since I don't want to railroad them.

>Making it fantastical also lets you introduce some monsters to fight, and lets you play around with more elements- like both sides could have tanks they use while OTL the Russians lacked a major tank program that either side could have used.
I can see that, maybe even have a ceasefire to the local forces can fight monsters together.
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>>84336516
By fantasy I just mean 'clearly not earth'. So yeah, you have as many elves and stuff as you feel comfortable with. Personally I would go for a mix where there are some elves and monsters, and maybe some ancient enchanted artifacts, but all of the drama and plot are drivien by mundane people with political agenda's. Which I personally view as low-fantasy, but not everyone will automatically know that's what I mean when I say that.

Obvious both of the two major factions here would be rife with factionalism- not much point in doing something akin to the Russian Civil War otherwise. Places to go would be the Reds having disparate factions between idealist and authoritarian communists, intelligentsia and idiot-rednecks who just want land redistribution, and some anarchists. Of course- they'd have some sort of Commissar type figures that ensure they are cohesive enough to present a serious threat- and again no such thing as good guys in Russia. Whites would be a mix of the Professional military (those who didn't side with the Reds, decide to sit on the fence, or fuck off to some other country), what remains of the monarchy, as well as proto-fascists/authoritarians, technocrats, business elites, and anti-communist reactionaries.

And then add in to the mix independent armies who want to break away to form their own states which would make them enemies of both the whites and reds, and international 'volunteers' not sure who you'd want them to back but it could be a free-for-all with different foriegners backing different factions- or trying to play both the whites and reds against each-other for continued anarchy.
(cont.)
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>>84336516
>>84336981
Solution to that problem- the Capital has been recently rested after several riots- probably starting from the pre-civil war days. Or perhaps a foriegn invasion (with the preceding conflict being similar to WW1) leveled the city before they peaced out- having bombed it to crap, with most civilians taking shelter in the Metro (like in WW2 and for some Metro 2033 inspirations) Resources and food are scarce, and all but a few government buildings are essentially in ruins. So the first few misisons could be stabilizing the capital region (maybe from some monsters prowling the streets) and from there focusing on retaking the rest of the country, or linking up with other factions of the White movement.

Also an idea since you want a bit of a post-apocalyptic battle. Perhaps the preceding conflict resulted in 'magical tears' across the country that are still fucking with reality. I'm thinking like a magical version of Metro/Stalker. Regions where men go mad, ghosts are frequent, magical mutants/monsters abound. You could borrow the term 'Exclusion Zones'. Obvious ways to make instant dungeons. Now of course the trick would just be balancing how things are super fucky-wucky while both major factions still have enough resources to be actively waging war (outside of the occasional ceasefires).
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>>84336260
>so instead the Whites or a fantastic equivalent (who I'd make sort of proto-fascists because in Russia there are no good guys) hold the major cities while the Reds hold the countryside (which I think would be more fitting for a peasant militia theme)
It's more of a Mao and China Civil War theme and there was some cultural and historic reasons why it did't exactly work in Russia. Russian reds power-base was specifically city factory proletariat and Lenin's crew was for the most part forced to make compromises with rural population who just wanted to be left alone. They did it better than Whites but it was still a struggle.
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There should be a supernatural faction trying to fuck over the non-supernatural factions.
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>>84337201
Did you miss the part where I said I was consciously reversing what happened in real life? It's like me saying-
>so instead in this fantasy setting the slave-holders are the industrialized north, and the freedom-lovers are the agrarian south
>actually, in the American Civil War the slave-holders were in the south, and the people who opposed slavery were in the industrialized north
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>>84336188
As long as you make the Bolsheviks the good guys since they were trying to bring stability and economic prosperity to the people and establish a people’s republic.
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>>84337468
>As long as you make the Bolsheviks the good guys
We'll just memory hole the cheka and all the atrocities they committed.
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>>84337609
Anon that's clearly part of the joke. Any endorsement of the communists as unironic good guys is going to involve copious ammounts of historical revisionism for the good of the party.
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>>84337626
>Anon that's clearly part of the joke.
If it's just jesting then forgive the reply, gets difficult to tell the difference nowadays.
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>>84336188
>what kind of system or systems would be best for the aforementioned list that I gave?
Ops & Tactics, Twilight 2000, and Battle Strikers all have different strengths, depending on what kind of session you want to run. There's also Exodus, if you want to use a specifically post-apocalyptic system.

>>84336516
>I also want to include the Greens, Blacks and various independence/nationalist factions as well.
Neat, people always forget that there were other factions other than the Monarchist and Bolsheviks. Still side with the Bolsheviks
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>>84337895
Even if someone is an unironic communist, they aren't going to go 'yeah go do it zero nuance' unless your leaning into the joke of utopian communist propaganda. Which yeah can be pretty fun.
>>84337897
There weren't really that many Monarchists, because people tend not to know that the Bolsheviks weren't overthrowing the Imperial Government, but the Republican Government that had overthrew the Monarchy earlier in the year. There was so little support for the Monarchy by that point (though not nonexistant) that when the Reds did capture the Tsar and his family, they just kept them under house arrest for a few months because they didn't know what to do with them as they were already private citizens- until later they decided to just hedge their bets and kill them all in case there was ever an upsurge in monarchist sentiment in the future.
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>>84336188
>various factions that sprung up after October Revolution.
That's going to be a long list, anon.
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>>84338558
>27 different factions
Jesus Christ, I knew the Russian Civil war was apocalyptic since it was the collapse of an Empire, but fucking hell. I mean, how would someone even make a game of this?
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>>84336260
>>84336516
>I would advise you make the setting a fantasy rather than IRL one
Personally, I quite liked Valkyria Chronicles' design and aesthetics in this regard. It's a nice mix of fantasy and more modern elements.
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>>84337201
The Leninists were actually the more aristocratic of the two leftist factions, which meant that they had many more officers and generals than the competing Social Democrat mensheviks who were composed of middle managers. This is a large part of why they were mad at the kulaks - many of the Leninists were of aristocratic descent, but left poor from Tsarist land reforms which gave land to peasants when technological advances in agriculture made those lands much more profitable.
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>>84336260
>I would advise you make the setting a fantasy rather than IRL one
>>84339802
>Personally, I quite liked Valkyria Chronicles' design and aesthetics in this regard.
I can see using Valkyria Chronicles being as a basis, or at the very least, an inspiration for a Russian Civil War expy. Though I don't know how well it could work out considering nothing is known about the world other than not!Europe.
>>84336981
>Obvious both of the two major factions here would be rife with factionalism.
Not him, but the beauty of the Russian civil war is that there was a plethora of factions that were coming out. Just limiting it to the Reds and Whites seems counterintuitive not to mention boring.
>>84339909
>The Leninists were actually the more aristocratic of the two leftist factions,
You better have sources to back up this revisionist claim, because the closest thing this ever came to fruition was Lenin advocating for a vanguard party, and even then it for a necessary evil.
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>>84336260
>I would advise you make the setting a fantasy rather than IRL one, because it allows for creative freedom. After all- IRL the Russian Civil War ended a specific way.
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>>84336188
Have you tried consulting /hwg/?
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I wanted to make a game like this too where you manage a little force which has to keep track of equipment, supplies, manpower (e.g., what specialists do you have?) and so on as they adventure in some lawless land to retrieve some occult artefact or supernatural power. I was reading a book called Beasts, Men, Gods by this guy who allegedly escaped the red army during the civil war through Mongolia and got pressed into service with Baron Roman von Ungern Sternberg and it has great bits where he's foraging alone in the forest, hunts and kills a bear, travels with other white refugees through bandit-infested territory, meets lamas and all sorts of crazy shit happens, etc. I think there's a lot of potential - think Lovecraftian ruins to explore and Indiana Jones-esque Nazi expeditions seeking out the ark of the covenant or the entrance to the hollow earth or something.

I think there is a lot to play with in terms of strategy, logistics, RP, etc all in a fun setting but it runs the risk of becoming overcomplicated.

I would have it so that you have your nameless goons representing soldiers and officers and named characters who you obtain from promoting goons or recruit via some other method who are specialised and have their own abilities and even motivations. In my head this is really a Weird War strategy campaign system where you would fight tabletop battles using a mutated existing system (so you can have shamans and witches and shit with their weird powers), like Battlegroup or Chain of Command or something (I have to admit I've not yet played a game with either system so I'm speaking from a place of ignorance) and then deal with a campaign map where supplies, attrition, movement, recruiting etc happen. The nations could have their own occult character added where Soviets have an early version of their cold-war psychic research program, the British have Crowley-type magicians and sanctioned witches and shit, Germans have their crazy SS ancient aryan vril stuff...
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>>84341674
Really, I just want an excuse to entertain my "History Channel after dark" tastes and fight battles over Shangri La, the Lance of Longinus, Die Glocke, UFO launch sites, Antarctic pyramids, and so on, and Konflikt 47 is a bit too camp for me (and I don't collect 28mm ww2).

Fantasy elements aside the base concept of fighting a disjoint war effort with a smaller force of Your Dudes in a semi-historical setting, and having to manage the supply and logistics of your force, overlaps completely with a less fantastical game. Do you see your idea as playing out like this, i.e., as a campaign system for tabletop battles, or do you think the tabletop battles are unnecessary/bloat or just not part of your concept?

I don't yet have enough experience with the systems that do exist to go off and design my own; I'm only just putting together and painting my 15mm Soviets. But I'd very much like to try and bash together something homebrew like this and I see the fantasy elements as totally optional addons.
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>>84341430
The fuck is this?

>>84339802
>Personally, I quite liked Valkyria Chronicles
My man, Valkyria Chronicles would be a perfect example since it mixes fantasy and realism well.

>>84341628
>Have you tried consulting /hwg/?
Like they would know anything.

>>84341674
>>84341707
My man, how do you go from the Russian Civil War to the German SS?

But yeah, I'm interested in a Russian Civil War Homebrew Game. Hopefully, Y'all support the reds.
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>>84342467
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I see the fundamental campaign mechanics of a russian civil war game and a weird-historical occult expedition game as overlapping. Supply management, living off the land to whatever extent you can, keeping track of how many machine guns you have and how many people that can use them, will you freeze to death, can you find a tank, etc.

The setting overlaps too, see my first example of Ungern Sternberg weirdness. You should really find the book about it online. Here's the guy in question: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdynand_Antoni_Ossendowski

>After the outbreak of the February Revolution of 1917, Ossendowski moved yet again, to Siberia, this time to Omsk, where he started giving lectures at the local university. After the October Revolution and the outbreak of the Russian Civil War, he also got involved in the counterrevolutionary Russian government led by Supreme Governor Admiral Aleksandr Kolchak.

>After Kolchak's defeat in 1920, Ossendowski joined a group of Poles and White Russians trying to escape from communist-controlled Siberia to India through Mongolia, China and Tibet.[3] After a journey of several thousand miles, the group reached Chinese-controlled Mongolia, only to be stopped there by the takeover of the country led by mysterious Baron Roman Ungern von Sternberg.

>Ossendowski joined the baron's army as a commanding officer of one of the self-defense troops. He also briefly became Ungern's political advisor and chief of intelligence. Little is known of his service at the latter post, which adds to Ossendowski's legend as a mysterious person. In late 1920, he was sent with a diplomatic mission to Japan and then the US, never to return to Mongolia. Some writers believe that Ossendowski was one of the people who hid the semimythical treasures of Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg.
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>>84340871
>You better have sources to back up this revisionist claim
nta, but considering the first leader of the Cheka was a Polish nobleman it wouldn't be surprising if there were more literal aristocrats in high party positions like that.
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>>84338558
Damn, seems pretty wild.
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>>84343998
Just because one dude was of noble descent doesn’t mean the rest were. Besides, he realize his evil ways and reform.
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>>84339621
I would say boil it down to a few major factions-
>Whites - Basically everyone who is a dedicated anti-communist
>Reds - Everyone that's further left than monarchism
>Independants - Factions without much ideology simply seeing an independant state
>Foriegn Volunteers - Outside influencers looking to sway the conflict to their own end
>Miscellaneous - Any faction that doesn't broadly align with the others

Meanwhile every faction has intense sectarian divides within them that means they fight almost as much with them selves as everyone else.
>>84339802
Valkyria Chronicles is a good way to go about it. I'd almost advise setting it there, except Germany and Russia are combined into one super evil country.
>>84340871
Broadly we know that there's a US country in the Republic of Vinland, and some sort of Imperial Japan hinted to be doing it's own stuff.

Also map there is incorrect- that 'northern wasteland' is meant to be scandinavia- one of your party members is said to be from basically norway.

Anyway I'd love to see the Valkyria Chronicles version of the Chinese Civil War but they are too cowardly to do it.
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>>84346304
>except Germany and Russia are combined into one super evil country.
Based.
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>>84346256
>Besides, he realize his evil ways and reform.
What evil ways are you referring to?
Evil ways as a nobleman or evil ways as the head of a brutal secret police force?
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>>84346318
It does lead to the weird moment where Valkyria Chronicles 4 is essentially about doing Operation Barbarossa but you're the allies. Complete with 'oh shit we got in too far and winter came and all our troops froze to death'.
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>>84336188
Why not just make it a post-apocalyptic America with various groups trying to form their own nation instead of using the Russian civil war? Would make things much easier not to mention it’ll be more free-range. Also, nice Verniy, she’s cute.
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>>84348512
Because we have actual factionalism to draw from for the Russian Civil War, whlie the US civil war really only had two factions?
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>>84348562
Then start being creative.
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>>84348562
>whlie the US civil war really only had two factions?
Who said anything about a US civil war? He said make a game in post-apocalyptic America with various groups forming their own mini states, if you can't be imaginative enough to make a game about that, then I don't know how you can make a homebrew game based on Russian Civil War
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>>84336188
I'm going to side with the first post and say it's better for you to set it in a fantasy than in irl. Hell, I'll even go even further beyond and agree with what this >>84348512 anon said and set it in a post-apocalyptic America for simplicity's sake. As for what system, then I'll recommend Twilight 2000 since its already a post-apocalyptic military action tabletop.

>>84339802
>>84347574
>Valkyria Chronicles
Still mad that they botch that series up. Holy hell, it had a lot of potential.

>>84343998
>Felix Dzerzhinsky
Pretty sure Felix was one of the few good, reformed nobles who fought to establish a worker's paradise.

>>84348512
Also, Hibiki a cute.
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>>84350587
>Pretty sure Felix was one of the few good, reformed nobles who fought to establish a worker's paradise.
I'm certain the practice of letting rats chew through men's guts is just one hallmarks of the worker's paradise he helped established.
I feel like I'm getting mixed signals, are you just memeing?
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>>84336260
Make a fantasy Russian Civil War with rat folk or some other animal folk.
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/77230644
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>>84350848
>I'm certain the practice of letting rats chew through men's guts is just one hallmarks of the worker's paradise he helped established.
Not him, but you got to break a few eggs to make an Omelette, and besides, the end results speak for themselves. So overall, it was a net good for the proletariat workers.
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>>84351499
>unironic tankie
LMAO
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>>84348512
>Would make things much easier not to mention it’ll be more free-range.
Honestly, given how there were ton of factions within factions during the Russian Civil War, I wonder how a tabletop U.S post-apocalypse would play out and handle that many factions. Wouldn't it just be one huge clusterfuck?

>>84337387
>There should be a supernatural faction trying to fuck over the non-supernatural factions.
Like a S.T.A.L.K.E.R. situation?
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>>84350852
>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/77230644
I just read this, and God damn, why can't we have more thread like that on this board? Seems to encapsulate what /tg/ was made for.

>>84336188
Honestly, just bumping this thread since its interesting and at the very least, is /tg/ related.
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>>84351525
How is he a tankie?
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>>84351525
Damn bro, do you need /s to understand sarcasm? Do you wait for other people to laugh at jokes so you can tell if they're funny or not?
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>>84353955
>>84353976
Why are you being offended from such a simple observation?
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>>84342793
>The setting overlaps too, see my first example of Ungern Sternberg weirdness. You should really find the book about it online. Here's the guy in question: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdynand_Antoni_Ossendowski
Shit is wild. I’ve always wondered if using pst events for one-off sessions would be alright without being frown upon.
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>>84339621
Don't forget about all the sub-factions. Even the two major ones weren't always completely unified.
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>>84336188
I'm Russian. Ask me about our civil war.
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>>84355354
Are people as autistic about it as Americans are about theirs?
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>>84355399
Actually much more autistic. Russian history nerds are generally much more autistic and hold more radical opinions.
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>>84336981
>By fantasy I just mean 'clearly not earth'. So yeah, you have as many elves and stuff as you feel comfortable with. Personally I would go for a mix where there are some elves and monsters, and maybe some ancient enchanted artifacts, but all of the drama and plot are drivien by mundane people with political agenda's. Which I personally view as low-fantasy, but not everyone will automatically know that's what I mean when I say that.

Im not super in the know of war oriented systems besides surface knowledge of Ops & Tactics, but you might actually enjoy using the Shadowrun 5e system for gunplay and magic, its fairly lower magic oriented and much more focused on tactic and gunplay if you DM it properly. Also homebrew or straight up disregard vague/shitty rules from the official rule book.
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>>84355435
I'd also imagine that whlie there was propaganda in the lost-cuase myth in the US- that was done largely by private people butthurt that black people weren't slaves. But in Russia, propaganda about the Russian Civil War was built into the foundational myth of the USSR- a country very happy to shoot people for contradicting the narrative.
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>>84356108
Nobody was shot for contradicting this narrative after Stalin died in a puddle of his own piss. Movies were filmed depicting the White Guard sympathetically, if not entirely positively.
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>>84356235
Maybe not shot, but certainly people were sent into the Gulag for contradicting narratives post-stalin.
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>>84336260
>in Russia there are no good guys
>>84336981
>no such thing as good guys in Russia
Why do you keep repeating this shit?
>Whites would be a mix of the Professional military (those who didn't side with the Reds, decide to sit on the fence, or fuck off to some other country), what remains of the monarchy, as well as proto-fascists/authoritarians, technocrats, business elites, and anti-communist reactionaries.
Yes, let us summarily ignore all the moderates, social democrats and constitutional assembly supporters (the most die-hard of Whites) because it doesn't fit into your "all Russians are evil" narrative.
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>>84356480
If they were imprisoned, they definitely did more than just vocally support the White Guard. Political dissidents were ostracised, persecuted and fired from their jobs, but rarely imprisoned after Stalin's time. In Brezhnev's era the preferred way of dealing with them was to commit them to mental asylums on trumped up diagnoses.
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>>84356504
Russian stories are often characterized by a sense of nihilism. Things go from bad to worse, often for arbitrary reasons, and nobody, not even the main characters are flawless. Good example would be the Metro series- in the first game you are post-apocalyptic survivors trying to survive incursions by mutants. As you progress through the game you fight bandits, communists, literal nazis, but you're aided by an elite military band called the Spartans. But you get to the end and call down a bunch of missiles on the mutants threatening to destroy your station, and you find out that they were just trying to talk and make peace with the humans but their psychic powers were overwhelming them.

Also quit clutching your pearls.
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>>84356732
Whoa. I've never seen anyone misunderstand Metro 2033 so badly. The main message isn't that everyone is a bad guy, it's that everyone is a good guy, evil is born from communication failures. It's a really common theme in Russian literature, going at least all the way back to Tolstoy. Incidentally, it's how the Civil War is currently seen officially - there were no bad guys, just competing factions with different visions.
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>>84356891
Note that I never said 'everyone in Russia is evil' you seem to have gotten that from somewhere else, probably the recesses of your brain. I said 'there are no good guys'. Because you know, life is complicated, nobody is wholly good, and even the 'less bad' folks are going to fuck up and do something horrible in pursuit of their goals.

The Nazis and Communists are pretty explicitly evil in Metro though. Not without some ameliorating factors, but quite clearly the wrong direction for the Metro to go.
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>>84356891
put that straw down, anon.
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>>84357035
I disagree with this defeatist view as well. If there are no good guys, no side is worth fighting for and you might as well drown the country in mustard gas. What's the point of choosing a lesser evil when evil still wins after all, albeit a lesser one. I think you're an American? General Sherman committed truly horrific atrocities in the name of victory, in my opinion, these atrocities are indefensible. And the other side literally treated human beings as animals. Would you now say that there were no good guys in the American Civil War?
>The Nazis and Communists are pretty explicitly evil in Metro
The gommies were assholes rather than outright evil, and the Nazis were pathetic, a parody more than anything.
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>>84357400
I mean I believe this is something the author of the Metro series points out with his tagline 'fear the future'. Whereas in the US everyone expects life to improve with each-generation, in Russia everyone fully expects things to get worse with every generation.

I'd also point out that there's a difference between 'good guys will occasionally do horrible things, but the end result is still good (which is not the same as saying the ends justify the means)', and 'there are no good guys, there's your guys and there's the other guys, and occasionally there are guys who are flat-out bad'

Anyway to put it with the example of WW2- I wouldn't be flat out and nihilistic and say 'oh both were equally evil' especially from a russian perspective. Nazis were flat out evil, and while the soviets were bastards, they were also what was standing in the way of the nazis bent on the complete extermination of Russia. But it's also a good sentiment of what I mean, the communists weren't good guys. Just the obviously lesser evil.
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>>84358028
>Whereas in the US everyone expects life to improve with each-generation, in Russia everyone fully expects things to get worse with every generation.
Are you even aware of the thread you're posting in? The Civil War was driven by unprecedented optimism. On both sides people were fighting for reforms that they've been dreaming of for generations. They thought that if only they won, their grandchildren would live in paradise. This optimism is well-reflected in the revolutionary art of the era. It was crushed in the Stalin era, when people were forced to believe that they already lived in paradise. But it came back with a vengeance after the first space flight and the great liberalisation that accompanied it. For a while, the Soviet economy grew faster than the American economy, and the people, particularly the intellectuals, sincerely bought into communism. It was an ideology that constantly required people to be optimistic, and when in Brezhnev era optimism died its final death, so did the USSR, even if the actual process of dying stretched over a decade.
Now, suppose you have this blind hatred of communism and conviction that nothing good can never come of it, which I just don't want to argue with. What do you have against the parliamentarism, federalism and constitutionalism that many leaders of the white movement espoused, even the key figures? It all boils down to your wish to paint all of Russians black. There's no other explanation.
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>>84358303
Dude get your panties unknotted. I'm actually not some rabid-anticommunist. I just recognize that you know, the USSR was fucked up. It's not some 'hatred of all russians'. I love Russian culture, I think it's awesome. I just also know the Russians go through a lot of hardcore shit.

Anyway- sure if you wanted you could have there be unironic good guys then yeah go ahead. I just think it kind of defeats sort of the russian spirit. I mean as you said- the communists were super optimistic. We see that optimism didn't translate to a liberal non-authoritarian state. I'm not saying 'automatically if russian republicans took power that they'd become evil dictators', just that if they took power with no complications (as in OTL they didn't peace out the Central Powers and failed to improve the economic situation leading to the civil war in the first place) it'd rather defeat the spirit of the age.

Like if you did the American Civil War but refused to have any mention of slavery.
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>>84356235
>Movies were filmed depicting the White Guard sympathetically, if not entirely positively.
Any recommendations?
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>>84358478
Not that anon. But there’s one called “The Admiral” from a few years ago. It’s not very good though.
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>>84355354
Do you guys have any tabletops of the Russian Civil War? Also, what's your opinion on Verniy?
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>>84358478
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flight_(film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adjutant_of_His_Excellency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Home_Among_Strangers

>>84359162
The Admiral is not a Soviet movie, it's also really bad and one sided. It's basically a hagiography of admiral Kolchak, the one white officer who really wasn't a good guy by any stretch.

>>84360447
Yes, we do - Red Earth. I've been waiting to post it, though it's not exactly what OP wanted. I believe an English translation exists. I have no idea what Verniy is beyond meaning "faithful" in Russian, but anime is shit.
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>>84361607
>but anime is shit.
The kancolle anime was great.
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>>84355177
>>84339621
>>84338558
These maps don't come anywhere close to doing it justice. The real number of different factions, according to Wikipedia, is 140.
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>>84363711
how many of those are goony nobodies operating out of a handful of buildings?
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>>84363727
0. Only major soviet republic and white movements. All the "goony nobodies" are lumped together as the "green movement" (which is not doing in justice. Whereas some greens were regular bandits, others were well-organised and posed a greater threat to the reds than the local whites)
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>>84358459
>I mean as you said- the communists were super optimistic. We see that optimism didn't translate to a liberal non-authoritarian state.
How could it? From the very beginning the Bolshevik goal was a "dictatorship of the proletariat". Why would that ever result in a liberal non-authoritarian state?
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>>84364534
My point exactly. Lots of optimism =/= an actually good for of governance.

Though it is noteworthy that the Bolsheviks were a minority within the communist movement (the name means Majority, but that's just a very unclever messaging and propaganda), they were just also the most ruthless and successful at seizing all power within the red movement (when they had an actual election, the left of center Social Democrats won the majority, the Bolsheviks declared the election results clearly fraud and just seized power).
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>>84363763
What about the Black Army?
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>>84361607
>Red Earth. I've been waiting to post it,
Post it, or at the very least, share what's it about.
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>>84364584
It's pretty funny. The Social Democrats were the the bankers, middle-managers, underemployed lawyers of their day and they actually tried to do a banking interdict on Lenin and the Bolsheviks. They got shot lol.
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>>84365466
>Black Army?
Weren't they just anarchist? What about them?
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>>84366478
Pretty sure they were more than that.
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>>84361607
>It's basically a hagiography of admiral Kolchak, the one white officer who really wasn't a good guy by any stretch
So, it’s true. He’s the only one that’s unsympathetic throughout the entire civil war. Why? What did he do to be the only one.
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>>84364584
Well, they thought it was good. Dictatorship of the proletariat is supposed to be the best scenario for every class in the long run, as it's the driving force of social progress. It's all taken straight from Marx.

>>84365571
Few of them got shot, most fled the country or were allowed to leave it later. Some converted to Bolshevism. Lenin's preferred ways of dealing with political dissenters were exile and forced disavowal of their views, not murder.

>>84365466
>>84366478
>>84367528
Yes, they simply were anarchists, plain and simple. They're counted as several different movements, though, because (shockingly!) anarchists didn't have any centralised command or strategy. Nestor Machno was the most important one, when people talk about the Black Guard, they usually mean him and his boys.

>>84368243
I implied no such thing, ESL. As for the reasons why he's so profoundly unsympathetic, how about his unlawful coup against the democratic Directorate that coordinated the White movement and unilateral seizure of power. This further fractured the White Guard that was already straining under ideological differences, and doomed the entire movement because of his personal ambitions. He was extremely unsympathetic as a person too, he despised democracy and wanted to save Russia by installing a totalitarian dictatorship with him at its head. He made the Bolsheviks seem like a preferable option.
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>>84368892
>Nestor Machno
Better known as Willem Dafoe
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>>84368892
Keyword is supposed to. And it's a pointless sentiment in regards to my argument. The communists were very optimistic even in the time of Stalin. They knew their lives sucked but the wholly believed they were creating a utopia for their children. That didn't then make the communists the good guys, far from it, the communists were horrible, it's just a lot of them did have good intentions (and then a lot were just opportunists and plain horrible).
>>
Is OP still here? I feel like he hasn't posted anything about the game he wants to run.
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>>84355177
I find it weirdly funny that in both world wars russia and the uk decided to split iran between themselves just because
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>>84369507
What the fuck is he supposed to post when the "game" is an idea in his head?
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>>84369845
A part of Iran actually wanted to enter the USSR and joined the Civil War on the Red side, but they were put down by their own Persian authorities before anything came of it.
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>>84369850
More ideas.
>>84369860
Iran used to be largely secular back in the day. The Shah was relatively secular, and so was the republic that later overthrew him. The CIA went and overthrew the republic and reinstated the Shah who again was still relatively secular until he got overthrown by the theocratic Ayatollah.
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>>84369490
>That didn't then make the communists the good guys, far from it, the communists were horrible
Again with this non-argument. You know what? I'm tired, I don't get paid to be your lecturer in objectivity. Keep living in your bubble for all I care.
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>>84369507
Still here, and I'm thinking of doing a mix of supernatural and IRL using post-apocalyptic America ala Neo-scavenger as my basis for the Russian Civil War expy.
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>>84336260
>there are no good guys in Russia
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>>84337609
actually, repression of reactionaries is a good thing
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>>84370471
I'm not making any argument for subjective morality here.
>>84371133
Again I'd advise a spoke in a wheel sort of map- players start in central hub with a railway to take them to different locales with different stuff in them. Unless you want to start off with a tutorial area as I advised earlier.

Also ideas for different locales? You obviously don't want it to be barren tundra the entire time.
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>>84372522
Yes. While repression of everyone in addition to the reactionaries are not.

I'm not an absolutist on freedom- 'you gotta let the fascist fuckwits make their case as to why you should overthrow democracy' but that doesn't then make stalinist (or leninist) repression good.
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>>84372529
>You obviously don't want it to be barren tundra the entire time.
Of course not because no fighting took place in the tundra where no one lives.
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>>84372505
Holy based
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>>84336260
>so instead the Whites or a fantastic equivalent (who I'd make sort of proto-fascists because in Russia there are no good guys)
That makes no fucking sense. The whole point of the Russian civil war is that it's about socialism vs an uncomfortable alliance of hard monarchists, soft monarchists and republicans. The internal division of the whites (which were only unified because the socialists were such a huge threat) was a big reason why they failed in the end.
If OP wanted a socialist vs socialist thing then he would base his setting on the Great Patriotic war, not on the civil war.
>while the Reds hold the countryside (which I think would be more fitting for a peasant militia theme).
There was a peasant militia type faction in the Russian civil war, the green army (unorganized, ad hoc, not really an army) and the black army (more organized and with a leader in Makhno, though not as much as the reds and whites). The reds being a movement based in the cities was integral to their ideology.

If OP wanted a game specifically based on the Russian civil war then I don't think that fundamentally changing the core dynamics of the Russian civil war is the goal.
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>>84372805
I mean it'd be a good backdrop for a tank battle, but my point is variety is good.
>>84372912
>buying into the nationalist-socialst meme
Anon, you realize the phrase 'nationalist-socialist' has the same connotations as 'conservative-liberal' or 'republican-democrat' right? The Nazis weren't actually socialist, nor did they try to present themselves as such- in fact if anything they tried to pose themselves as radical centrists- a viable alternative to both communism and democracy.

Anyway OP liked my idea, so you don't have to bring him into it, just say you don't like it.
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>>84373403
>tank battle
Only if you use the Tsar Tank.
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>>84373688
We already said this is a fantasy version of the conflict. One major reason being because as you point out, the Russians didn't really have tanks.

Instead each faction (or at least most) should have access to tanks leftover from the Great War because that'd be more interesting for fighting. Also if we are taking inspiration from real-world geography the great plains of Russia are better tank country than the western front was.

Maybe you could split it between light tanks that are the most similar to the real-world WW1 era tanks, and super-heavy tanks that are somewhat closer to the Tsar Tank (I could imagine if you tried to make the design somewhat more coherent, you keep the giant spoke wheels but reincorporate them into the tank-treads, and the turret could probably be incorported too).
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>>84373815
No, boring. Better to use the actual Russian tank programs that got stalled because of the civil war.
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>>84373911
I mean unironically share more I'd be interested.

To my knowledge the Russians only produced the Tsar, and when it's prototype sank in the mud and proved itself obviously unviable they scrapped the whole concept. Whereas to my knowledge most actual tanks used in the Russian Civil War were foreign surplus from WW1 (which could also be used as a plot point for this theoretical campaign).
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>>84373941
No, there were like 10 different projects, from perfectly functional to shit that was MORE ridiculous than the Tsar Tank. None were ready for mass production at the time when the Civil War started. Also, the tsar's asslickers hated innovation, so that also played a role.
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>>84373815
>(I could imagine if you tried to make the design somewhat more coherent, you keep the giant spoke wheels but reincorporate them into the tank-treads, and the turret could probably be incorported too).
jak

>let's use the tsar tank
>but actually, let's not use them

This is you.
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>>84374004
Share what you know. I didn't think it would be possible to be MORE unrealistic than the Tsar, which looks like something that could never manifest itself in reality.

The tank in question there though seems to have the obvious problem where it comes to aiming, the main gun seems fixed. Now a fixed gun in itself isn't necessarily a dead end. The Swedes and Finn's use fixed-gun tanks to deal with their heavily forested terrain (not a lot of room to swing a turret), but they build their tanks to be able to lean forward and back to compensate.

The design might be able to work if you give the main gun he ability to move up and down. The box design though has obvious problems though- it both weakens structural integrity and is more expensive, and it's ironic given soviet tanks were famed for their sloped armor.
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>>84374040
I mean I literally never said that? I said there were design elements you could reincorporate into a fantasy tank. You know, so it'd evoke the idea of a WW1 era russian tank that didn't exist?
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>>84374099
So why don't you want to use one that did exist, let alone something as awesome as this?
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>>84374121
You mean aside from the obvious?
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>>84372522
Anon the cheka got so excessively violent that psychopathy became an occupational hazard for its members.
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>>84355435
>Russian history nerds are generally much more autistic and hold more radical opinions.
How radical are we talking here?
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>>84373941
Okay, I'll tell what I know. We start with the what appears to be the best in the bunch, a tank called "Land Rover" by its creator, engineer Porohovshikov. It had a set of wheels for driving on roads and tracks for off-road driving, 8-mm think armour plating and three machine guns. It was fully operational and successfully tested, but didn't enter mass production.

>>84374216
The obvious being your soul-crushing lack of imagination?

>>84375067
Psychopathy can't be developed. You're either born with it or not.
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>>84376497
Next up we have a much more awesome brainchild of Porohovshikov called "Land Ironclad". If you can't tell from the picture and the name, it's patterned on warships, but supposed to drive on land. It was 35 metres long, had ten engines, 40 machine guns, two cannons, ten howitzers and a crew of 70 people. Sadly, it wasn't prototyped.
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>>84376547
Remember when I said that how some of this shit was more ridiculous than the Tsar Tank? This is it. Meet the "Oboy" of engineer Semchishin, better known as the mobile fortress. One kilometre long and half a kilometre tall, it can safely be named the largest tank ever conceptualised. Aside from warfare-related quarters, it had workshops, a block of flats for the crew and even shops for them. Its maximum speed was a whopping 321 km/h and it was supposed to smash enemy fortifications simply by driving into them. I wonder why this one wasn't prototyped?
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>>84376497
Combining wheels and treads I think is an idea some other tanks worked with so not the most outlandish. Probably the craziest thing is the boxy design and the mono-tread.
>>84376547
Oh god, what the hell was the idea here? I know at least why the Tsar Tank was supposed to be good on paper, what was the thought-process behind this?

I think if you were going to use this you'd be better off remaking it as an armored train (which were used during the Russian Civil War, most notably by Trotsky).
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>>84376615
Okay, seriously what was the concept here? Where is it even supposed to shoot from?
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>>84376615
We now go back to reasonable tanks. I have already posted this one, a project by engineer Mendeleev - a son of the famous Dmitry Mendeleev, the father of modern chemistry. This one had a crew of 8 people, drove with the average speed of 14 km/h, was equipped with a machine gun and a cannon. The machine gun tower could be both turned and raised, by the way. It's another tank that was built and successfully tested, but not produced for the army in time for the civil war.
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>>84376704
Another one I have already posted, a 20-ton tank with 12-mm thick armour plating, a cannon and a machine gun, average speed 7 km/h. Prototyped, tested and fully operational, wasn't adopted in time for the war. Are you starting to see a pattern?

>>84376632
>Oh god, what the hell was the idea here?
Can't you tell? It's used like a warship, only on land. It's even named that, for Christ's sake.
>which were used during the Russian Civil War, most notably by Trotsky
Everybody who could capture a train could retrofit it as an armour train. Armour trains were a neat way of getting your artillery around in a country with enormous distances such as Russia. Trotsky wasn't the only one who rode them, he was just the most prominent passenger as the Soviet war minister.
>>84376646
I admit that I don't know where it shoots from (maybe it has some portholes not seen in the picture), but shooting isn't its intended combat role. It uses a system of pendulums and industrial steam engines to roll around, while gyroscopes keep the interior quarters stable in relation to the ground. It's meant to roll into enemy fortresses and crush them.
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>>84376825
That sounds like the kind of stupid thing an army would come up with if it was run by Patrick Star.
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>>84376825
Next up we have a tank fittingly called "Turtle" by engineer Navrotsky. It's essentially an armoured steamroller with gun! Namely, two howitzers, two cannons and ten machine guns. Unfortunately, it was never prototyped, I wish it was tested and found to be operational.

>>84376896
What exactly?
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>>84377053
Deciding to defeat an enemy fortress by rolling it over with an overly-complicated steel ball.
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>>84377292
It's an egg. And it's awesome. You don't get dieselpunk, go back to /his/ or (more likely) /k/ or wherever you came from.
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>>84355435
>Actually much more autistic. Russian history nerds are generally much more autistic and hold more radical opinions.
I believe it, someone once said that Russia and Russians are mad and looking at their history, you can't deny it. Just something about the land.
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>>84375594
Depending on what period they like, they all are either commies of tankie flavor or monarchists.
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>>84365523
Red Earth is basically deadlands meets russian civil war with the theme of players slowly going insane turning into a living embodiment of Movements (collectivist fanaticism for reds, arrogance and hypocricy for whites, etc).
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>>84380273
Seems interesting. Does it lean heavily on the psychological aspect for the rest of the game?
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>>84380273
>>84381030
It's not just Deadlands, it's more of WoD 3th ed try to pass as Deadlands in Russian Civil War thematically with far more "loss of humanity" and impending end of the world with basically zero chanses for player to do something in grand scheme of things beside just join one of already established apocalyptic forces.
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>>84381030
Don't have pdf now, so have to rely on memory. Basically all movement edges (and they give access to powers) come with inbuilt specific flaws.
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>>84381231
>It's not just Deadlands, it's more of WoD 3th ed try to pass as Deadlands
Disappointing desu
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>>84372912
>>84363763

A video about the greens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl4wmk2H_JE
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>>84381233
Ah, thanks anyways. It’s been interesting.
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>>84358303
I'm surprised no one actually did any exhausting criticism of capitalism, communism and other ideologies just to categorize flaws and understand what went wrong, everyone just wants to point fingers in contempt without actually fixing anything.
>optimism
Ever read Illyushenko's Cosmology of Spirit?
Now that was something.
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>>84376497
>Psychopathy can't be developed. You're either born with it or not.
You sound so sure.
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>>84384308
if you want to get shit done, as communists were determined to, first you need to resign yourself to ignoring the finer philosophical implications of what you're doing and just focus on the basics. you're either doing shit done or you're doing "exhausting critiques"
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>>84384429
I meant these days, after all that has happened.
At any rate, while political and logistical contemporary minutiae concerns are obviously important and naturally get in the way of any ideological infrastructure implementations, the amount of focus they take away doesn't actually excuse avoidance of researching those philosophical implications in the long term, because nothing would actually work if people don't understand a damn thing about the many systems they're dealing with.
While the people who can and did predict what was going to occur just waited until they collapsed.
Flailing around isn't going to create a golden age of prosperity.
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>>84381231
>it's more of WoD 3th ed try to pass as Deadlands in Russian Civil War thematically with far more "loss of humanity" and impending end of the world with basically zero chanses for player to do something in grand scheme of things beside just join one of already established apocalyptic forces.
Sounds boring not to mention disappointing.
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>>84375067
>>84384387
Psychopathy is the gateway to success in a capitalist society. In the US, the prevalence of psychopathy is 2% amongst the middle class and 5% amongst the upper class.
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>>84387458
Well, it's only natural that morally unscrupulous and uninhibited wouldn't hesitate to walk on heads of others.
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>>84336188
>Russian Civil War Homebrew Game
Why make a Russian Civil war game when you can easily make a game about the great patriotic war? Far more interesting.
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>>84336188
Neat the Russian civil war is an interesting period of history a- >>84336260

Dropped
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>>84379259
Part of the problem is that the wide-open planes of Eastern Europe offer little natural barriers to enemy invasion, about the only defense is just letting the vast space of the country act as it's defense.

Don't know if that explains the deal with the governments.
>>84389600
The Russian Civil War was a clusterfuck of competing interests and factionalism.

WW2 was a comparitively simpler affair where both the Nazis and Soviets had their own guys on lock, and a pretty conventional frontline.
>>
Sounds interesting, will be lurking for more info.
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>>84336188
What about crafting? With the collapse of the Empire, wouldn't it be hard to maintain a supply chain, let alone keep up the war effort?
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>>84356504
you shut the fuck up DFD. shut your stupid god damn vatnik mouth you motherfucker
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>>84387203
>>84381231
I tried to memoryhole all this WoD 3.0 shit i guess, but mudcore (or manurepunk as we call it) is pretty big in russian community.
Also 2nd edition of red earth has been released recently. Uses FATE.
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>>84394354
Still surprised the reds won.
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>>84399839
>better supplies
>more support from the army
>key locations controlled from the start
>most importantly, unified command
Wow, shocking.
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>>84389600
Because it's been done to death and then some.
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>>84399839
There were serious people there, what's so surprising about that?
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>>84399839
Remember a lot of those independant republics achieved their independance. Not all of them, but some big ones like Poland and Finland.

Also most of the allied intervention was pretty limited, what with it being just after WW1 and war-fatigue set in hardcore amongst the central and entente powers.

I'm more surprised the Japanese who did mobilize their entire army practically into Russia, didn't win more territorial concessions- if nothing besides the practically empty north sakhalin.
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>>84401397
The Russian territory in the far east is absolute, total shit. The Chinese were actually glad to be rid of it when they conceded it in the first place. They can't even fix their own northern provinces, and nether can Japan.
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>>84394354
You gotta give the bolsheviks their dues. They won the war despite having every nation against them.
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>>84389600
>not 1939-1945
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>>84401674
Yeah, but Japan was pretty expansionist at this time, and felt gypped out of the German colonies in China from WW1, and had clashed over Sakahlin in the Russo-Japanese war. Also I don't know if oil reserves on the island had been found yet or not, but oil was a concern for the Japanese.
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>>84402597
What’s wrong? The great patriotic war happened in 1941.
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>>84404768
But the invasion of Poland happened in 1939.
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>>84405704
WW2 started in 1939 by some accounts. Personally I would say it started in 1937 with the Japanese invasion of China, given WW2 didn't stop with the surrender of Germany but the surrender of Japan.

But from the Russian perspective, they remember WW2 as the 'Great Patriotic War', which starts with Operation Barbarossa in 1941. I mean not helping things is that the soviets HELPED the Nazi's invade Poland in 1939, and in the intervening years they would also invade Finland and the Baltic nations thanks to WW2 going on meaning no side was able to do any serious intervention.

Also from the Russian perspective- Russians lost the most men in the war, and were the ones to capture Berlin, so they like the idea that WW2 really only started with the invason of Russia, and ended with soviet-victory over the Nazis.

Just like every other nation does of course- we're taught in the US that WW2 didn't REALLY start (or at least didn't become a proper World War) until the US entered things with the bombing of pearl harbor- the allies until then didn't accomplish anything other than the UK not dying before the US got into things (we're taught).
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>>84402741
They weren't. They are a very recent find.
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>>84405756
>the allies until then didn't accomplish anything other than the UK not dying before the US got into things (we're taught)
The British take on WWII is the funniest by far, field marshal Montgomery single-handedly won the war by denying the Nazis the only source of oil on the planet. Oh, and Rommel was better than the rest of the Nazi generals combined.
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>>84406125
The brits certainly overplay the role of the African campaign, but I do think the rest of the world severely underplays it. Seizing the Suez canal would have crippled Allied presence in the Pacific, as well as contribute a lot to the submarine embargo against britain as supplies must now go around Africa- which in turn would certainly make things much more easier for the Japanese. And locking down the Mediterranean would certainly make Axis logistics a lot easier, as the British not having bases to strike at their supply in the region. Plus taking what oil-reserves the British did have in the region wouldn't have hurt.

Add on to that that the African campaign did still lock down axis troops and supply, and help give the Allies valuable experience fighting a land war against them allowing them to refine their teactics and equipment.

That said it is of course still minor in scope compared to the massive operations that would follow.
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>>84405756
>I mean not helping things is that the soviets HELPED the Nazi's invade Poland in 1939, and in the intervening years they would also invade Finland and the Baltic nations thanks to WW2 going on meaning no side was able to do any serious intervention.
Revisionist claims. The Soviets were trying to help the polish proletariat.
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>>84405756
Interesting. Anymore? It’s not often that I get read on how other nations treat ww2.
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>>84410257
Do you even believe in half the shit you say.
>>
>>84411203
Well the Japanese remember WW2 as two seperate wars, one being the China Incident, which was an unfortunate event that was nobodies fault in which nothing really important happened, and the other as the Pacific War, which was a war of honor, in which no warcrimes were committed, but Japan was unfortunately outgunned and out-tech'd by the Americans, resulting in the unfortunate loss of the Empire. WW2 was when Germany invaded Poland, while Japan just happened to be involved in two seperate wars around the same time.

Meanwhile the Chinese remember it as the '8 Years War of Resistance' against the Japanese, but the war is often forgotton about in the public consciousness by both mainland China and Taiwan. This is a shame, because the Chinese theater is fucking bonkers and marked by so much incompetence that it somehow warps it's way back to being epic. The thing is, is China's involvement in WW2 is sandwhiched between the Chinese Civil War against the Commmunists and Nationalists, and as such gets really politicized by the two descendants, communist China and Taiwan. Chiang Kai-Shek was forced to at gunpoint by his own generals make peace with the Communists to form the United Front against Japan. However, really both sides continued to fight each-other DURING WW2, and when peace-came there was only a one-year armistice before fighting resumed in 1946. Both sides claimed they did all the real fighting against the Japanese, as the other side hoarded guns to fight the Civil War with (which both sides did). In truth the Nationalists did all the conventional warfare with the tanks, planes, boats, and frontline (not that they had a lot of them), while the Communists ended up doing most of the partisan warfare behind enemy lines which thanks to terrible Japanese supply, they could basically run things out in the open in some areas.
(cont.)
>>
>>84413620
Meanwhile the eastern-european nations remember WW2 as seeing the rise of autocrats- many were under illiberal regimes to start with, but you saw the rise of Fascism in the west, overtaking Hungary and Romania, and of course expansion by the Italians and Germans, but to the east you saw the expansion of communism with the USSR, and when the war ended, the Soviet Bloc had been established where the nations caught in the middle were now under the thumb of soviet communism. Whereas the war is remembered as terrible in most parts of the world, but ultimately ends in stability (japan gets a new government but they didn't go extinct as they feared, China would continue a civil war but at least they were largely unified as a single government afterwards, Germany and Italy again new governments but at least the war is over), eastern european nations remember WW2 as both terrible, and something that ends with them being subjugated by communism.
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>>84412498
> The Soviet government announced it was acting to protect the Ukrainians and Belarusians who lived in the eastern part of Poland, because the Polish state had collapsed and could no longer guarantee the security of its own citizens.
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>>84413696
>Russians
>Protecting Ukrainians
top
kek
>>
>>84413715
It's easy for you to laugh right now, but back then Lviv had public benches with signs saying "for Poles only" and such wonderful folk celebrations as "strike a Ukrainian day". The hyena isn't any better than the bear.
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>>84413970
That's just being tossed out of the frying pan and into the fire. Every Soviet death was deserved, and thankfully we will live to see what's left of the Russian state collapse even further.
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>>84413620
>Japanese remember WW2 as two seperate wars, one being the China Incident, which was an unfortunate event that was nobodies fault in which nothing really important happened, and the other as the Pacific War, which was a war of honor, in which no warcrimes were committed,
I mean, they're right. Japanese were rather benevolent to those they occupied. Not to mention liberating Asia for Asians.
>>
>>84417663
I mean if you ignore all the massive warcrimes, such as the Rape of Nanking (which I should inform you is called the Rape of Nanking), which the Japanese do, then correct.

If the Japanese had meant even a quarter of their rhetoric about the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, they would have won the war hands down. As it was, the similarly fascist Thailand was practically forced to ally Japan while they wanted to stay neutral like Spain (and as a result they were given a very lenient peace-deal by the Allies) the Vietnamese and Indonesians went very quickly from welcoming the Japanese to fighting with the Allies to fight them off (with Sukarno who would eventually succeed in getting Indonesia's independence starting off by fighting the Japanese). There's also the fact that the Japanese Casus Belli against China was supposedly the Chinese had kidnapped a Japanese private, when later that same day he wandered back across the border having gotten drunk and visiting a chinese brothel.
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>>84417663
Using enslaved children as sex relief, human guinea pigs, and live combat practice is anything but benevolent.
>>
>>84417663
>liberating Asia for Asians.
Ask literally any non-Jap what they think of Japanese, starting with their closes neighbours
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>>84336188
ctrl f >Corto Maltese
>0 results
A shame, since Corto's adventures in Siberia are a pretty good piece of inspiration, including an encounter with Baron von Ungern-Sternberg.
>>
Get the fuck out of here, WWII shits! WWII lovers are the absolute cancer. This thread has nothing to do with it, this topic is not welcome.
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>>84418286
Von Ungern has got to be one of the most overblown historical figures ever. People outside of Russia are more likely to know about him than any other White leader, yet he was a glorified bandit with a small gang of locals, who largely sat out the war in Mongolia.
>>
>>84419389
The one I don't get is why everyone seems hyped up about Huey Long when he seems to me a very typical new-deal southern democrat in his era.
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>>84417663
What is it with Japan making propaganda in their manga?
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>>84421230
It's a working approach.
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>>84421230
It's not like the Japanese government mandate it. It's that a lot of Mangaka think 'unironically Japan did nothing wrong in the war'.

Part of the problem is they don't teach their own history. I had a Korean-Japanese professor in college who explained that in Japan history is an elective, and it ends with the Meiji restoration. So actual history on WW2 is unknown to most Japanese outside of 'we were in China, we bombed pearl harbor, and then we got nuked'.

The Japanese in general are highly nationalistic, you just don't notice it, since after WW2 there was a real cultural turn against militarization. Whereas denazification in Germany put the blame for WW2 square on the germans and their nazi leadership, in Japan the US (who mostly ran the allied occupation) dismissed a similar program for Japan under the notion that asians are just easily misguided and it was a handful of strongmen responsible for all their warcrimes- therefore we don't really need to address their culture. The Japanese for their part wanting to explain their humilating defeat explained it by saying 'we didn't do anything wrong, it's just militarization is wrong and only done by stupid people like the americans and the russians, which is why we're really smart for not having a military any more (which the allies made it illegal for us to have anyway).

This is also why the Japanese fucking love stories about robots, because while military pursuits are out, they can still take credit for the scientific advancements made in the war, and can stroke their ego's about being really smart sciency people (and to their credit they are world leaders in robotics and computers).
(cont.)
>>
>>84421363
>it's just militarization is wrong and only done by stupid people like the americans and the russians
Now that's just rude.
>>
So most Japanese people on the street don't think they should bring back the old colors and try to set out conquering everyone- pretty much everyone likes being allied to America for the same reason everyone in NATO does- the US has the worlds largest military and being allied to them means you don't have to waste any money on the military yourself. So most manga you'll see where 'japan is #1' is where the Japanese are innately superior at magic or childrens card-games rather than military pursuits, since everyone understands that military pursuits panned out badly last time, and they don't want to try to tussle with the Ameircans like last time. Also why most military nuts in the country will set their works in the US instead to get around the fact that a story about say people shooting zombies (like say the Resident Evil series) wouldn't work in Japan owing to nobody owning guns.

There is an exception to this, in Japan's version of Neo-Nazi's who DO want to restore the old borders, and want Japan to build back up a military and break off the alliance with the US. These are a small minority, but they are not a fringe group like say neo-nazis in western countries, owing to again the lack of any sort of denazification program. They are viewed largely as a nuisance, but not really something that has to be dealt with. These are the kind of folks looking at the US today and going 'yeah, we could fucking take them'.

BTW- most actual japanese veterans of WW2 would tell you that they super don't want the Imperial government back, since the regime was extremely callous towards the comon soldier. I mean don't forget their policy of Kamikaze pilots, which was a tactically fucking stupid idea.
>>
>>84421412
That's quite sad, seeing as Japan could be strong military wise but without actually committing immoral acts, provided they keep themselves in check.
Interactions with the US and the rest of the world perhaps may not have been most damaging, but they do seem to lost something of themselves along the way.
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>>84421441
I'm sure the Japanese could have a military and not do warcrimes. The issue with the imperial regime is that the miltiary had no overseeing civilian government that could reprimand them since the illegal invasion of Manchuria.

However you have to ask: what would be the point of Japan militarizing now? There in no danger of invasion, sure China and Russia aren't great countries but neither expect to invade Japan. North Korea might, but they'd have to get through South Korea first which is also guaranteed by the Americans.

So buying a bunch of tanks and planes and stuff really serves no strategic purpose, and would require a lot more public spending that would come at the expense of either less public welfare, or more taxes. Again, Japan is allied to the US, the most powerful country on the planet, so when you've got that alliance, what would be the point when in essence the US is footing the bill for you?
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>>84421464
It's a matter of properness and doing things your own way.
Things aren't done merely because of immediate concerns, and US behavior on the planet overall is more than insulting at times.
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>>84421492
Look the US fucks up a lot I'll be the first to admit it. The US being the largest military with the largest alliance network is still the best out of any alternative. Said alternatives being 'china rules the world order', 'russia rules the world order' and 'the world order is divided into a series of power blocs in which china and russia maintain parity with the US'.

And like I said, there's no strategic benefit. Plus all of Japan's neighbors prefer this. Japan is an odd duck, in that despite being a democracy, it doesn't really get along with it's democratic neighbors like South Korea or Taiwan. And that's because Japan refuses to acknowledge their warcrimes, and they are super paranoid if they ever militarized they'd try the exact same thing again. So every asian nation, including China, much more prefers that Japan is demilitarized while they maintain an alliance to the US, than if they broke off that alliance and built up their own military. Part of the problem too is that nobody would be willing to ally them. Japan might be invited to SEATO, but they certainly wouldn't if they broke off an alliance with the US, as the US heads SEATO.
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>>84417663
Fubuki is so cute for treating that Dutch foreigner with such kindness.
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>>84421529
I didn't imply that others don't make their fuck ups either, merely that in japanese perspective US is hardly exempt from any judgement to really tolerate them, but I see your point.
>'china rules the world order'
That one's something indeed.
>'russia rules the world order'
Practically no changes I'd say, except with less funded revolution.
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>>84418163
American propaganda. The Japanese sought to end Western imperialism.
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>>84421363
>to their credit they are world leaders in robotics and computers
Not only America has them beaten in this regard, but now China as well, and soon Korea. How does it feel living in the 80's?
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>>84419389
The modern state of Mongolia owes its existence to this "bandit". Also he's officially recognised as a reincarnation of Begtse, the Mongolian god of war.
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>>84424235
with some of their own imperialism but now with twice the racism if that were even possible
>>
Find TNO mode for Hearts of Iron 4, though its alternate history 1964, almost all Russian characters were either direct participants or influential intellectuals and public figures of 1917
Also my boi Morgenshtern got included in foreign agents list in Russia today, rip bro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MUNKJoxyrc
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>>84427040
He escaped to Dubai.
Also, they passed a law according to which you can be declared a "foreign agent" just for showing sympathy towards the West. Stalinism is back in full force.
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>>84424235
I like this.
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>>84350852
Tooth and Tail?
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>>84426949
At the very least, Japan won in this alternate timeline.
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>>84431992
God, they can't even hide their seething.
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>>84431992

Doesn't this doujin continue after this page though?
>>
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>>84431992
>>84435088

thankfully yes
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>>84435781
So, was this made when Kancolle had its first season?
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>>84437797
No, it’s a fan made doujin.
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>>84336260
The Russian Civil war was a IRL battle Royale
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>>84440962
That's not inaccurate, but it glosses over a lot of things.
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>>84431992
>>84435781
This one might be accurate. Japan did have early successes in the Indian Ocean that did seem like they could be decisive in the moment. Much more important was the loss of Singapore, and thus control over the straight of Malacca, which in turn severely hampered british supply lines. Part of these early successes meant a planned invasion of Madagascar, under the ostensibly neutral Vichy French regime, but they had allowed access to axis powers in the past, and had ceded French Indochina to Japan, so the idea the Japanese might base out of Madagascar to target india wasn't outlandish.

However there were big reversals in the Indian ocean not long after that forced a stalemate in the Indian Ocean that forestalled the need for such a plan.
>>
>>84440464
>fan made doujin
I will never understand the Japanese obsession with the Pacific war.
>>
>>84447322
First there's obvious romantic appeal with 'we were a warrior culture and had a badass military that conquered a bunch of shit'.

But the much bigger part is the Japanese refuse to admit any of the massive warcrimes they did, and don't bother teaching the history (and how badly run their military and government were) to the general public.

So it creates a sort of lost-cause narrative, where the Pacific War was a noble war fought against the Americans who won through virtue of outmanning and outgunning them (rather than the fact the Japanese military always considered itself too smart for it's own good and would routinely fall for American traps).

There's also a sentiment not dismilar in America where 'if we just bombed Vietnam harder we would have won!', but instead it's 'if we had just invented this giant overly complicated super-weapon we would have won!'

Also the focus is really just on winning. Nothing really bothers to examine like why the imperial government would be preferable to the current one, or why it'd be better to not be allied to the US (to say nothing of the fact that Japan was allied to Germany, and what their relationship with the USSR would need to be), or what they would do with all that land they conquered (the concept of Autarky having been completely deligitimized in the era of free-trade, something that has benefitted Japan immensely).

Contrast with the Neo-Nazis who know exactly what they want a world where Germany won to look like.
>>
>>84336188
>Is there a strategy-focused military-sim that also has character creation and roleplay elements, not to mention diplomacy for the other factions?
Twilight 2000 is what you're looking for. And I recommend you just homebrew it all the way by using America as a expy for the Russian civil war.

>>84417663
>>84424235
>>84431992
>>84435781
Man, I know the new kancolle anime is all but stated to be about the pacific war, but I didn't think they would go all the way and just make their new manga about the pacific war.
>>
>>84447973
But Americans didn't lose in Vietnam.
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>>84336188
>Yesterday, there was a thread about the Russian Civil War
link?
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>>84448905
Don’t get him started.
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>>84372505
Murderous savage subhuman.
Reminder that Stalin's Red Terror was merely a continuation of Lenin's policy
>>
>>84413674
It's kinda funny. For most of the World WW1 was the pointless slaughter, while here(Baltics at least) it and the Russian Civil War is the Age of Heroes, while it's vice-versa for the 2nd one.

As For OP's question, do remember that there were ethnic units involved, like the Latvian Riflemen and the Czhechoslovak train ride, and could present a cool option. If you are doing a fantasy setting, you could maybe even have one of them playing 4d chess, siding with the communists, knowing that in the future it could collapse the whole country (which they know from figuring it out or revelation), so their smaller one could be free in the very distant future.
>>
>>84450933
>more capable than average
>subhuman
>>
>>84448364
I’ve never heard of twilight 2000 until this thread.
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>>84400102
Man, from the wiki, you have the whole world backing the Whites and they still lost, I would be surprised as well if the reds won.
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>>84456053
The backing wasn't some grand military assistance, nor would westerners go that far to aid their primary opponent.
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>>84456053
The west didn't do jack shit, they supplied just enough ammunition to the whites to make sure they don't have to charge the reds with pitchforks and that was the extent of their """help"""
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>>84456053
British tried to make concentration camps on Russian soil, iirc.
Brits and and their peculiarities, hah.
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>>84336188
Verniy is cuter than Gangut.
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>>84456088
>nor would westerners go that far to aid their primary opponent.
And what would that opponent be?
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>>84458405
Russia existing, obviously.
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>>84431992
Fubuki sure is cute when she swallows Japanese propaganda.
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>>84417663
Lol, Flips are the dumbest people on Earth and they still have enough sense to remember hating you for what you did.
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>>84460279

she's even cuter when getting vaporized by American gunfire off Cape Esperance
pic very much related
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>>84457169
>>84457180

To be fair a lot of that support follows the mold of the ill fated Polar Bear Expedition

>American regiment was sent under equipped for winter to Arkhangelsk, in the far north, to guard supplies sent before the civil war
>the Reds steal the supplies before the Americans even land
>Americans are immediately pressed-ganged into fighting the Reds by British officers alongside even worse equipped French and White Russian forces
>White forces are led by former cult leader
>forced to fight through the freezing winter by the British who wanted to make Petrograd by Christmas
>Detroit's Own die in freezing swamps and from Spanish Flu
>Maxim guns that they brought from home have to be boiled so their cooling water does not freeze
>Americans have to steal food and clothing from the locals to survive, causing them to start helping the Reds
>Even if they wanted to escape, they can't because the White Sea is frozen over for more then half the year
>By the time the spring has rolled around, the French have mutinied, and most of the American units are about to do the same after a year in Russia
>500 casualties before they finally gtfo back to America
>>
>>84357400
>General Sherman committed truly horrific atrocities in the name of victory, in my opinion, these atrocities are indefensible.
>Treating burning empty cities and tearing up railroads like genocide
>>
>>84357400

>General Sherman committed truly horrific atrocities in the name of victory

I do declare, that boy Sherman was a monstah! He burned down my plantation, and stole my property! Yes sir, he stole four score of my slaves, I tell you he's a monstah!

Get fucked. Nothing Sherman did was outside of the 'norm' for an army on a wartime march through hostile territory. No-one at the time batted an eyelid, or thought it remarkable, especially given how twisted the public rhetoric had become. Southern newspapers & public speeches were routinely calling for an active policy of slash & burn assaults into the North well before the tables had turned.
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>>84462647
Are you forgetting all the southern women who were dishonored?
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>>84461991
Delete this. Fubuki deserves better than that.
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>>84458420
France has lost billions in debt payments because the Whites lost, you dumb fuck, and Britain has lost industrial equipment nationalised by the Reds. I'm sure they fucking celebrated.
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>>84465152
British are still afloat and can get good if they'll pull their weight, the US ultimately made a killing.
>France
Who cares about them? Western world is about anglo-saxons.
>>
>>84465550
I'd love to see the British performance without France in WWI, it might have been even more embarrassing.
>>
>>84464428
Source of Sherman in any way supporting or not punishing rape? Hell do you have any source for rapes conducted by Sherman’s troops?
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>>84465564
British actually performed well all things considered, especially early war when their army was primarily volunteer professionals, the French were only a few steps above the Austrians in terms of competence, they barely held the line and all dedicated offensives varied between being failures to being military disasters.

The Republic’s immense opposition to a professional military crippled any ability to meaningfully conduct military actions against a competent military foe like Germany.
>>
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>>84467629
Ah, it's time to post this timeless picture again.
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>>84467728
Holy shit, and I thought the charge of the light brigade was bad.
British army: not even once.
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>>84467728
>>
>>84467728
This has to be fake.
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>>84469499
Marching towards enemy slowly while returning fire was viable stategy in Napoleonic Wars. Which was the last major confrontation England participated before WW1. They were stuck in the mindset that it still has to work because it worked before without realizing the technology and reality of battlefield advanced dramatically. Sort of like Russia this year relying on tanks because that worked for them in WW2 and Sino-Soviet border skirmishes.
>>
>>84467728
I know I shouldn't be laughing at 20k dead young men, but I can't stop.
>>
>>84462647
Sherman was certainly ruthless by the standards of the Civil War. Now, nowhere near as southern apologists make him out to be. On the other hand, Sherman was one of the most efficient generals of the war, because he understood more than any other general of his age the type of war he was fighting: An industrialized war which will incur massive casualties on your and the other guys end to achieve victory- therefore ruthlessness is the key quality needed to win.
>>84469615
From my dumbass civilian view, the issue doesn't seem to be an issue with the russians using tanks in and of themselves. It's that they are leaving their tanks in the open for ambush runs by the Ukranians, plus they just aren't supporting their troops with supply in general.

Another part of the problem is the Ukranians are wisely avoiding the sort of open conflict the tanks would be useful for.
>>
>>84469615
Is it the classic problem of military leadership preparing for future conflicts based on past experience and past wars?
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>>84469615
>Which was the last major confrontation England participated before WW1.
Seriously? What is the Boer War? Oh, right... an even bigger embarrassment...
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>>84469615
>Sort of like Russia this year relying on tanks
They apparently got somewhat better after the colossal fuckup of those first 2-3 weeks. Now it is artillery all day every day with some raids here and there, mostly a switch to loss-averse defensive land grab tactics.They are still severely underperforming expectations, but in less obviously embarassing way.
>>
>>84338558
Be honest with me, can a tabletop with that many factions be done?
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>>84472838
>can a tabletop with that many factions be done?
Maybe if it was a Historical Wargames, other than that, probably not.
>>
>>84471625
They won the second. However it’s irrelevant because it wasn’t a large scale conventional war from which lessons on massed European wars could be drawn. The real last major war Britain fought was the Crimean War which was a shitshow all around and offered few meaningful lessons.

For comparison the Chechen and Georgian wars might have hardened the Russian soldiery (if they had a professional army and not conscripts) but they wouldn’t have offered meaningful insight into how to fight a conventional war. The last relevant wars for the development of US doctrine was Iraq in 2003 or 1990 for example, Afghanistan gave us veteran soldiers who have seen combat and lessons on small unit tactics can be developed but it didn’t give insight on how to conduct an offensive against a large mechanized army like the Gulf wars did.
>>
>>84471174
>On the other hand, Sherman was one of the most efficient generals of the war, because he understood more than any other general of his age the type of war he was fighting: An industrialized war which will incur massive casualties on your and the other guys end to achieve victory- therefore ruthlessness is the key quality needed to win.
More like he understood what objectives were important to achieving victory. Lee was fighting a war of attrition believing that inflicting losses on the North would defeat it, Sherman was selecting targets that once secured or destroyed would weaken the Southern war effort. Destroy railways and the South has to march soldiers on foot and send food via horse drawn wagon, burn a cotton field and the South’s biggest export is destroyed. Atlanta wasn’t burned because “hurr durr war is hell” It was burned because it was a strategic target, a railway hub and industrial center. Even if Sherman’s army was later annihilated the burning of Atlanta would have ensured the South wouldn’t be able to use the city until the war was over.
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>>84472838
Depends on how you define "be done."
I doubt you can dump all fucking ~200 of them at once, but it could work if the game's scope started off small, only worrying about the dozen or so polities in a region, then expanding from there as the party moved on.

Basically take the same number of kingdoms you keep in your head with any fantasy setting, but you swap them out over time.
>>
>>84475209
In a setting more akin to the Russian civil war I wiuld be inclined fo start over the whole area with major factions and add new ones or subdivide general ones. Eg if the Russian Civil War was fiction my starting factions might be
>Whites
>Reds
>Entente

Then you can add the Blacks and Greens, then divide the entente into individual fronts or nationalities, Czechoslovak Legion, brekaway states, etc. The issue is getting people to care about the little factions enough to support their armies and make it financially viable to maintain full model lines, not to mention making armies seem unique.
>>
>>84467629

The French actually developed excellent tactics for fighting on the western front, and arguably applied the lessons of the early mistakes much better than the Germans or British did.
Won't downplay the mistakes they made however; far too many French infantrymen were sacrificed because of commanders attempting to press attacks which had already failed.
(Unsolicited book recommendation: "The Western Front" by Nick Lloyd is an excellent read on the topic).

>>84467728

This little snippet misses a world of context and detail. By 1916, we'd had two years of experience fighting in trenches, and one of the big problems faced by any attacker was exhaustion and loss of coherence; you'd shell the hell out of the enemy front and send a wave of troops charging across. They'd surge across, take the front line, but in doing so they'd be scattered and exhausted, having clumped up in particular locations (having either converged on a particular strongpoint, or having found refuge from enemy counterfire). Then, the enemy would counter attack with whatever forces were on hand, any potential weakness in their line repaired, and the troops you sent forward then either repulsed or ground down in attritional fighting without easy reinforcement or retreat available.

I've no idea where the 'fact' about the British believing moving slower = harder to hit comes from, but smells of bullshit. If they ordered their men to move forwards slowly, it was based on a belief that their massed artillery fire would breach the Germans lines (cutting the razor wire & destroying their machine gun nests), leaving the infantry only needing to advance and mop up the dazed survivors. The slow movement would also allow the reasonable inexperienced men who enlisted as part of Kitchener's Army (the mass recruitment at the start of the war) to remain organised and under control.
>>
>>84477043

(Continued from above)

However, the British assumptions were flawed. Their attack at the Somme was over too wide a front, meaning that their artillery was too spread out to achieve the desired effect. British shell quality was also not up to snuff, with a high dud rate brought on by the rapid increase in production required to meet the increasing wartime needs (this isn't a problem limited to the UK, the French & Germans also struggled with it).
The Germans were also not passive observers in all this, they'd been constantly refining their defensive tactics & strategies which meant they were well positioned to blunt the British offensive. The true mess came in the later days & weeks as the British attempted to renew the offensive multiple times, but they felt that they had to push in order to relieve pressure on Verdun (every German division sent to reinforce the Somme was one less attacking Verdun).
>>
>>84477043
>>84477105
British sounds like idiots.
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>>84475466
>entente
As it was already explained above a million times, Entente involvement was a pure formality and they supported the Whites anyway. German involvement was actually far more significant, in that they occupied the entire western part of the Russian republic and put the local separatists/nationalists in power wherever they advanced.
>>
>>84478531

They were having to learn a brand new method of war, going from a small professional army to a big continental-style force, while having to deal with French demands to DO SOMETHING (because the French were concerned we were up to our usual tricks of letting everyone else do the dying for us) and political pressures at home to achieve a quick and clean victory (combined with lunatic plans to send substantial forces seemingly everywhere except the Western Front where they were desperately needed).
We were no more idiotic than the French (attack! Our elan will triumph!) or the Germans (no, you can't have the reserves you need to press this offensive despite the success you are having, try harder) were. Once we worked out a reliable offensive strategy (rolling barrage & gas bombardment of enemy artillery and command points, supplemented by aerial spotting) we were thoroughly sensible.
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>>84479794
>we
eternal anglo showing his true colo(u)r
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>>84475466
I'd say start with whites and reds, then there's a third unaligned group, who represent factions that are opposed by both the whites and greens, and probably each-other. These would be breakaway nations, bandits, and some of the more batshit insane ideaologies.

As this guy points out>>84479794
foriegn powers would be aiding one side or another. Though if we view this as a fantasy scenario, there is potential you could do where invading powers are invading DURING the civil-war, as a similar scenario happened in China during WW2 where the communists and nationalists actively shot each-other as both fought against the Japanese.
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>>84479836

Worse, I'm Welsh
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>>84336188
Sounds interesting, I always wanted to play as a Cheka agent.
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>>84483581
>I always wanted to play as a Cheka agent.
Can't wait to kill innocents.
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>>84482266
Can you imagine being such a huge uncle tom as to rush to the defence of the nation that destroyed your country, people and culture. I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry.
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>>84389600
She cute, who is she?
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>>84483581
>not undercover Okhrana agent secretly hiding/protecting remaining tsarists from turmoil of the revolution

>>84484665
that goes without saying
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>>84486452
Why would you side with the tsarists? They lost the war.
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>>84487513
NTA but sometimes it's fun to play the underdog (or else, the underdogs in hindsight.)
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>>84488599
What underdog? The tsarists were just incompetent.
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>>84485607

If I'm going to shit on the English, I'm going to make damn well certain I shit on them for what they've actually done, not some inaccurate (and easily disproven) 'facts'.
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>>84491465
Whatever, welshman. Go take a trip to Chester and get an arrow to the balls, because it's still completely legal to shoot at your kind there.
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>>84487513
Because they still had wealth, and part of russian nobility had relatives in europe, so saving one's hide and getting him out of the country before will of the people catches up is good shot at peaceful retirement somewhere peaceful at the shores of France with a modest lifetime pension.
Or, you know, genuine misguided loyalty to the old regime.
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>>84493634
>Because they still had wealth
No they didn't, what little wasn't seized by the bolsheviks was looted by the rioters. Former Russian noble women became seamstresses in Paris.
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>>84493634
There were Monarchists in the Russian Civil War, though what most people fail to realize is the communists did not overthrow the Tsars, that was the White Republican movement earlier in the same year, which in turn was overthrown in the October Revolution which was done by the communists.

By and large everyone in Russia had lost all faith in the Tsar to lead the country, some whites were split on if the Tsar should only be a private citizen, or could be allowed a figurehead status.

Still there were some unironic Tsarists out there, but they composed a minor faction of the White Movement, who simply sought to keep the communists out of power.

Still- in a fantasy scenario, you could make the Tsarists the leader of the anti-communist movement. In the idea posited earlier on in the thread of making the split more vaguely fascist against vaguely communists, I could see the anti-left reactionaries having monarchists as a key component of their faction.
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>>84336260
>in Russia there are no good guys
But anon, History is just the story of the Russian people fighting the demonic hordes (non-Russians). Most revolutionary leadership wasn't even ethnic Russian (and this isn't a "muh joos" thing, they were mostly Baltoids)
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>>84493794
>everyone in Russia had lost all faith in the Tsar to lead the country
Partially because the last Tsar never had faith in himself.
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>>84494434
Stalin not being Russian doesn't automatically make him a good guy. You guys seem to be trying to take the comment 'there are no good guys in russia' in a weirdly ethnic direction.
>>84494616
Part of the reason probably being he knew he was losing WW1, and had seen enough violent uprisings to decide if he was just made a private citizen with his head still on him then he was getting off easy. Of course then it ended up he didn't get off that easy.
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>>84336260
I have to congratulate this bait, it's still making people mad a week later.
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>>84493794
>Still there were some unironic Tsarists out there, but they composed a minor faction of the White Movement, who simply sought to keep the communists out of power.
Maybe if Michael wasn't a greedy asshole and chickenshit and actually rose up to take the burden of leadership, then monarchists could realistically become a force to be reckoned with. Hell, this might have prevented the October revolution entirely, but for the sake of the thread let's assume that it didn't.
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>>84496244
'taking charge' doesn't automatically make a government well run, nor does it automatically turn the tides of WW1 which was the main problem both the whites and reds had with the Tsars.
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>>84496257
Tyranny was the problem the Whites had with the tsars, the provisional government was just as determined to keep fighting as the tsarist government was.
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>>84495700
>Part of the reason probably being he knew he was losing WW1
That certainly didn't help his case, but Nicholas II felt way out of his depth from the very beginning - he had to take the rule at fairly young age after his father's death and he knew he wasn't ready, he even said it himself.
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>>84496282
Not quite. The Whites didn't like that the Tsar was mismanaging the war, losing badly, which resulted in bad conditions back home in Russia.

The Whites however proved to be no better at managing WW1 themselves, allowing the Reds to win tons of legitimacy by admitting defeat to the Central Powers. The lost all the territory the Germans had already nabbed for themselves, but at the same time they stopped the bleeding which was enough for most people.
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>>84496705
Peter the Great overthrew his sister when he was 17 and seized absolute power at the age of 22. Nicholas the Bloody was just a bitch.
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>>84493738
>Former Russian noble women became seamstresses in Paris.
Seems fitting actually.
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>>84496211
It's not bait.
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>>84336188
Not sure if this is helpful, but here's a campaign map I was putting together for a RCW game.

Fascinating period, imo you should make it historical, as there's so much information, so many interesting characters you can draw inspiration from, and it doesn't matter what the actual outcome was, you can still fool around with the setting. If you make it fantasy, then what's the point? it becomes not!russiancivilwar and all the flavor is lost.

The Osprey "The Russian Civil War" book is great reading
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>>84502622
Thanks. It will help
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>>84502622
>If you make it fantasy, then what's the point?
You can have cool Slavic mythological creatures and magic.
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>>84506953
Yeah, but who wants that?
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>>84508565
Everybody with a taste.
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>>84502622
>Not sure if this is helpful, but here's a campaign map I was putting together for a RCW game.
How did that go?
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>>84502622
I like this map more >>84338558 gives you more details.
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>>84512392
No map will ever due justice to the Russian civil war. It was that much of a cluster fuck at the end of it.
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>>84496770
>The Whites didn't like that the Tsar was mismanaging the war, losing badly, which resulted in bad conditions back home in Russia.
So why did the reds kill them if not for that?
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>>84506953
Honestly, I'm ok with historical + supernatural, in fact those have been some of the most fun campaigns I've played. Once did a historical renaissance setting where we played as vampires - my character was a half spider, half human wizard vampire... quite a combination, but shit was insanely hard when every guard has multiple pistols.

>>84510815
It was for a WW1 wargame I published called Westfront - never actually got around to playing the campaign or testing the RCW units, although I did built a few Tchankas and did plenty of research.

Every game needs machine gun carts...
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>>84375594
Google Ponasenkov. You don't have such epic historians.
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>>84515043
It's not that bad, Chinese Civil War was much worse.

>>84516823
They didn't want to take any risks & the hatred for the royal family was truly epic.
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>>84493794
>>84493794
You are no better.

>that was the White Republican movement earlier in the same year
Whites and "Republicans" are different factions. Whites were in favor of military junta, not republic.

Look up Kornilov coup. Future Whites tried to overthrow "Republicans" in August, long before October revolution.

And it was Whites (Kolchak coup in Nov, 1918) who destroyed the last surviving stronghold of "Republicans" (Komuch), killing or imprisoning its members.
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>>84518416
The hell you're on? Whites were so politically diverse that they had everyone from hardcore monarchists to liberal democrats.
>And it was Whites (Kolchak coup in Nov, 1918) who destroyed the last surviving stronghold of "Republicans" (Komuch), killing or imprisoning its members.
Both Kolchak and Komuch were White, you dumb ass.
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>>84518437
>Both Kolchak and Komuch were White, you dumb ass.
Technically, Komuch had used red banner.

Either way, your definition of "White" is useless. If both were White, then why did they fight with each other as much as with "Reds"?
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>>84518558
Because the reds had single unified leadership and the whites were simply a fragmentary collection of everyone who opposed bolshevism (minus the anarchists).
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>>84518595
>Because the reds had single unified leadership
[hollow laughter]

>and the whites were simply a fragmentary collection of everyone who opposed bolshevism (minus the anarchists).
A movement that couldn't exist BEFORE Bolsheviks took over in October revolution.
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>>84516823
The Reds decided it was better to be safe than sorry. While in principal they loathed monarchies more than anything else, in practice the Tsar was already a private citizen and monarchist sentiment was so low that they seemed to pose no real threat to the communists in Russia. This is why when the Reds captured the Tsar and his family they just kept them under house-arrest for several months. However it was ultimately decided that the possibility that monarchist sentiment could grow at some point in the future and be used by anti-revolutionaries to oppose communism, that it was more prudent to kill them all and nip that potential future problem in the bud, by removing any monarch that they might want to reinstate from the picture.
>>84518658
The Bolsheviks due to their ruthlesslessness were able to effectively maintain leadership over the disparate communist and socialist movementes. Now when they won and had a real election, the people voted for the moderate Social Democrats, but the Bolsheviks then declared the election illegitimate and just named themselves in charge.
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>>84519080
>The Bolsheviks due to their ruthlesslessness were able to effectively maintain leadership over the disparate communist and socialist movementes.
Yep. It was ruthlessness. Totally. Not the Land Decree, or democracy, or sane economic policies, ruthlessness. Everyone was shitless scared of Bolshevik militia that was far away, behind three different anti-Bolshevik armies.

And Bolsheviks controlled ALL socialist movements. Including Left SR that launched coup against them during Foreign Intervention, and Anarchists (that they were fighting since April of 1918), or [insert half a dozen of other minor groups that fought with Bolsheviks].

Gotta love Americans and their "education" (a.k.a. state-approved brainwashing).

> Now when they won and had a real election, the people voted for the moderate Social Democrats
When and where did this happen?

> but the Bolsheviks then declared the election illegitimate and just named themselves in charge.
What fairy tale are you talking about?

If this is (horribly distorted) reference to Constitutinal Assembly, then it got shut down because NEITHER side had won enough votes to have a quorum. Not a single decision could be made, as Right wing refused to discuss anything with Left wing.

Why should anyone be surprised if the only functioning branch of government (Soviets) decided - after giving time to primadonna politicians - to work without Constitutional Assembly?


>This is why when the Reds captured the Tsar and his family
They got "captured" by previous government, ffs.

> possibility that monarchist sentiment could grow
There was no such possibility, and nobody thought that there could be.

Foreign Intervention (Entente) required legitimate anti-Soviet government it could put it in charge of Russia. And former Czar was the only one with any shred of legitimacy outside of Soviet framework.
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>>84519381
>And former Czar was the only one with any shred of legitimacy outside of Soviet framework.
Ahem.
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>>84519947
Nope.

Provisional Government appointed itself and was tolerated (not recognized) only because it promised to - eventually - hold actual elections (Constitutional Assembly) and create legitimate government that would solve everyone's problems.

De jure, Kerensky never had any claim to ruling Russia. And after October he didn't have even de facto claim, as he lost both power and popularity by that point.
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>>84519381
Please ignore him and he doesn't represent all Americans. Your posts have been extremely insightful and thank you for effortposting.
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>>84517977

>On 1 April 2022, Ponasenkov was put on a list of ‘Foreign Agent Media’ by the Russian Ministry of Justice.

???
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>>84519080
Christ almighty, just shut up. You’re making us look ignorant.
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>>84524688
Everybody who doesn't call for murdering Ukrainians is a foreign agent according to the Russian Ministry of Injustice.
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>>84435088
This isn't even the ending of the book, it continues on for another four books in til the last ship was destroyed/retired in the 1980s.
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>>84394354
Actually I 2nd edition of Red Earth. So if anyone interested I can do a lore dump.
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>>84529022
*I have
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>>84529022
>bumplimit
You've chosen a nice time, friend
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>>84529239
Sucks to be me then. Still worth a shot



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