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In Christian medieval folklore, did the fey and other supernatural folk recognize God the Father? The supernatural creatures weren't really seen as demonic.
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Christian medieval folkore is a category so broad that it's meaningless for questions like that. For every sea bishop you'll have just as many if not more trolls who are repelled by the ringing of church bells.
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>>82979112
>In Christian medieval folklore,
Define what you think this means.
>the fey and other supernatural folk
Also define what you think this means
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>>82979112
As far as Nordic folklore goes, there isn't really a lot of overlap. We have the Trolls throwing rocks at the churches or running away from them, and some stories say that if you marry a Huldra in a Christian church her cow tail falls off. Most other tales of mythological creatures don't feature the Christianity.
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So far as I know it really depended on a regional basis, it may be that they saw fey just as your average christian sees aliens, just another part of creation with their own particular rules and alignments. Of course there will always be some people who see them as hoax from the devil and whatnot, I guess you better ask /x/ on this one.
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>>82979875
>some stories say that if you marry a Huldra in a Christian church her cow tail falls off
Why would you want that?
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>>82979112
Sometimes. Occasionally, the weaknesses of things like Vampires and Werewolves are entirely based on them being unholy, and the things they're weak to being holy. Once in a while, there's a story about one of them finding God and suddenly being a kickass superhero with no weaknesses because they aren't unholy anymore. Some versions of Kresnik, for example, where he himself is a vampire, but he's also a good Christian and can therefore turn his vampire powers on other, morally impure vampires.
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>>82979112
For the most part, nope.

Supernatural creatures were holdovers from the pagan days and basically folklore handed down and readapted to their modern stories. Hollywood is not the only creatively defunct group of storytellers in history.

There were exceptions that were often attempts by the church to co-opt an old folklore to increase the popularity of the church. So yeah, Yes, populism and idea theft are ancient.
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>>82980047
I didn't write the story dude. Don't fucking ask.
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>>82979112
There's an old belief that that faeries and the like are the 1/3rd of angels that at the time of Lucifer's fall didn't pick a side and so got stuck on Earth. Don't know if it's medieval, certainly not doctrine though.
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>>82980110
readapting=!co-opting. Your anti-church sentiments are too obvious,
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>>82979112
>The supernatural creatures weren't really seen as demonic.
Depend on what part of Christiandom we are talking about, England and German were very tolerant of paganism and superstition, while Latin Christianity was far more orthodox.
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>>82979112
Depends on what nation you are talking about

Ireland considered them to be Eve's other children that were hidden away by God. and also considered them to be fallen angels that were not quite evil enough to be sent to hell, but would be sent there after the final judgment at the end of the world.

Spanish considered them to be the children of demons and humans, still not quite evil enough to be sent to hell immediately, but an actual problem worth rebuking and exorcising

French considered them to be demons, or something related to the Devil even when they are being mischievous and not as much pure evil.

Germans considered them to be either demons, or some unnatural creature that lacked a soul and therefore not quite on the level of a person. Possibly the offspring of witches and demons.

Dains never gave them much of a biblical origin, but also considered supernatural creatures to not have a soul unless they married a human in a church.
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>>82980613
Yeah, as a Catholic my opinion of the Church depends on the wisdom provided at the time by gauging it's effects on society as a whole. So I can be judgmental, as the Creator intended.

But as far as your feebleminded attempts to paint me an atheist, you fail because you have the reading comprehension of a 2nd grader.

The folk readapted old lore to new lore because they, as common folk, did not want to give up their old stories to the new God. So they simply adapted them and turn then into stories about fair folk and the like rather than their gods.

The Church on the other hand found the folklore that they could approve of and co-opt and did so. Individual priests, bishops, and congregations are to blame as they did it for the local popularity boost it would give. The Bishopric of Rome rarely approved such common appropriation of pagan beliefs feeling it base and foolish.

Learn history, gimp. You will look less foolish.
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>>82980774
Not him, but where are you from, anon? Sound like you are from the UK or the US.
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>>82979112
A lot of countries kept the folklore of them and belief around, sometimes trying to find some way of adding in their origin to the biblical origins of humanity etc. While others ignored any pretense of how they came about and just admitted that there happened to be trolls, elves, and fairies roaming around the countryside for some reason.

but almost every single time they are not christian, and are even repulsed by things like crosses and church bells, cannot cross past a church yard fence, or removed by a priest. sometimes they can become human if they marry a human in a church and they gain a soul. The main difference seems to be fairies do not have souls.
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>>82980812
>The main difference seems to be fairies do not have souls.
Same thing with mermaids, melusines, merrows, selkies and some more underwater peoples of varying folklores. For some reason people that live in the ocean do not have a soul but can get one if they get married. This seems to happen more often than almost any other type of fairy.
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>>82980766
Catholic French, English, and Scots also liked to claim they were either the souls of dead unbaptized children that remained on Earth and were not admitted into heaven or hell, or the leftover souls of the prechristian pagans that also were not admitted into heaven or hell and just sort of lingered on Earth causing general trouble for the living.

I think there was a similar belief that they would be eventually sent to hell on the final day of judgment too. Or that Satan demanded a payment of their own to hell and they often kidnapped humans to send them as hostages to hell in their place.
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>>82980047
Because if she catches you noticing the tail, she gets upsets and leaves forever.
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>>82979112
While outside the realm of Christian folklore, didn't Arabic legends have djinn that were jewish, christian, or muslim on occasion?
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>>82981683
iirc, a lot of their folklore treated them similarly to how Europeans saw things like Blemeyes, as just people who weren't human, like Turks or the Irish, and whether they were the right religion or not depended on the same factors as humans.
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>>82979112
Man I actually love this topic, the way the Irish didn't give up their belief in fey folklore, but adapted it into their new belief is so cute. I've seen fairies being described by Irish folklorists/writers as not being loved or hated by God, they are something in between. So I like to think they can be saved, but they are spirits that don't belong in heaven or hell.
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>>82979112
In folklore, the faerie folk weren't necessarily demonic, but they had to pay a tithe to hell, which is why they had a penchant for stealing children. Just google tithe to hell, it's pretty interesting.
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>>82979875
Is that where the song 'Herr Mannelig' comes from? It would explain the song but I don't know how trolls and huldra overlap if at all.
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>>82981247
I'm pretty sure she kills you.
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>>82982902
>but they had to pay a tithe to hell, which is why they had a penchant for stealing children. Just google tithe to hell, it's pretty interesting.
Damn anon that's really interesting, anything else to share with us?
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>>82979112
The game "Black Book" has a shitload of interesting information on the interaction between Russian folklore and Christianity.
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>>82979112
I always liked this particular interpretation.
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>>82980774
as a Catholic, how many children have you molested?
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>>82981683
In Islam jinn are basically a parallel society that live hidden from humans and they are also religious or not and many of them are also jewish, christian or muslim.
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>>82979112
The Christian god himself is a fairy.
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>>82984552
Why’d chariots of iron matter? And why are fairies weak to iron anyway, besides a nature vs civilization metaphor?
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>>82985680
Smiths needed to keep selling you iron knives, in an age where iron knives were cheap to make and vastly inferior. Especially in Britain, where tin, and therefore bronze, was not as expensive as in most of Europe.
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I would assume a good few, but probably not as many as the public school system
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In old Swedish folklore the people underground could steal your strength for labour when you slept if you didn't say your bedtime prayer, and the nourishment of your food if you didn't say your mealtime prayers. Reciting the Lord's Prayer would get rid of them in a hurry on the other hand, they simply couldn't stand hearing it. Christening babies protected them from being abducted/swapped out by them or the trolls. So they certainly weren't Christian, but they couldn't deny God's power. Less capricious and overall more benign creatures like the farm tomte and the Lady of the Mine on the other hand likely wouldn't mind, as they would generally reward "proper" behaviour and only punish the rude, lazy, etc. There are also "keep the bears from eating the sheep" songs/spells invoking the Lord so Pooh knows who he'll answer to if he goes for the mutton.
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>>82980774
>Tips indulgence
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>>82980852
>do not have a soul but can get one if they get married
I put this idea from a story and theological perspective.
Kinda wanna do it with robots too. Crazy trad wife robots.
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>>82980774
>The Bishopric of Rome rarely approved such common appropriation of pagan beliefs feeling it base and foolish.
Good thing the Bishopric of Rome existed to prevent people from holding base and foolish beliefs.
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>>82979112
>In Christian medieval folklore
>did the fey and other supernatural folk
>supernatural creatures weren't really seen as demonic
But they were seen as explicitly pagan, you absolute Yankoid.
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>>82986108
No, see semitic = good, European = bad.
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>>82979112
Demons but in the same kinda of demons you could've summoned and used to do random shit for you
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>>82979112
Is this an anime setting thread?
Because I can't think about any other alternative where what you are saying is true.
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>>82983083
I meant overlap between Christianity and mythological creatures in general, not specifically Huldra & Trolls. I don't know too much about Swedish folk songs, I'm afraid.
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>>82980774
lol catholic cuck
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>>82986985
He's asking a question not making a statement
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>>82980774
Imagine still being a filthy papist in current year.
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>>82983149
They were spirits that God mostly ignored since they fell into the category of not good enough for heaven but not evil enough to be instantly sent to hell. Either unbaptized people, old pagans who were not actually evil enough for a judgment etc. But since they were not protected by the church then Satan held power over them and demanded that every year they giver over their smartest, most beautiful and most capable to him. Sometimes it's just the single greatest one of them, or seven of them. But they kidnapped human children to send them over as hostages in their place, which is why it was considered bad luck to comment on how beautiful a baby was since the fairies might want to consider stealing it to be a part of Satan's annual teind.

Writers in the 17th century wrote about fairies actually hate iron because it reminds them of the iron gates of hell and they consider it to be an unholy or unlucky metal that they avoid.
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>>82980774
>Vatican 2 nigger thinks he’s Catholic, but his faggot lies and misrepresentation of history out him as a slave to globohomo and the antichrist instantly
I loved God so much it’s unreal bros.
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>>82987229
And without a proper context or, really, any context, his question is completely meaningless.
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>>82979112
>In Christian medieval folklore, did the fey and other supernatural folk recognize God the Father?

No, because they didn't exist. COULDN'T exist. For fey to exist, they would have to have power not of god, which is impossible. All power can come through god and god alone, to even suggest that anything else could be true is blasphemy because you are suggesting that God is not all powerful.

Thats the official stance by the church, at any rate, though local folklore was more variable. In much the same way that you would occasionally have accusations of witchcraft, to which the church's response was "Witches don't fucking exist, you moron. Satan cannot give mortals magical powers, god wouldn't allow it." Open and shut case. Many 'witchfinders' were actually arrested and executed by the church itself for starting shit.

Its funny, if you go back and read up on the guy who wrote the Malleus Maleficarum (aka, the GO TO book saying witches were real and this was how you found them to punish them) it was written by a guy named Heinrich Kramer, who was a 1400s version of a huge fucking incel. Before he even wrote the book, he tried to get a woman executed on such bullshit charges that the entire town threw out the case because it was just THAT OBVIOUS he was trying to punish her for not sleeping with him. And then he just hated women so much that he wrote a book on why it was totally okay to torture and kill them. What a loon.
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>>82988585
Call us back in 6-8 months
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>>82988795
What's also worth adding is that witch hunting is predominately a Prottie thing to do. As in - Catholic Church was more concerned with people trying to drag it into their petty bullshit and threw the cases, AFTER having a standard procedure how to deal with this shit and extensive record. Protties meanwhile were just content with lynching random people, because they saw "DA SAYTANIC TEMPTATION" in fucking everything.
I will die out of old age one day and I will still not understand the self-punishing framework of Protestantism, where you are fucked, can't do shit about it and that somehow dragged people, random lay people, to it. Because while I can get asshats trying to get away with taking over abbeys or priests that had a grudge with existing hierarchy, I just can't see a reason why a random lay peasant would consider that yep, this whole Reformation thing is great and I would punish myself on every possible step of my life from now on over a threat that is only real in my head.
And that without mentioning the 200 odd years of religious infighting this brought.
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>>82980267
You're basically describing Djinn
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>>82988849
Protestantism makes way more sense when you realize Martin Luther was a Jewish pedophile cambion demon, and the 1600s equivalent of a CIA glownigger quadruple agent starting a coup using dirty money.
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>>82988849
>I will die out of old age one day and I will still not understand the self-punishing framework of Protestantism
Not to derail the thread with politics but it's obviously Proto-Capitalism at play. You're putting the cart before the horse
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>>82980026
Lol I remember this book. A fun short read
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>>82989784
No he isn't. Djinn are in no way related to angels of any kind.
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>>82992592
Bullshit

Djinn are a member of the third of the host of heaven that Satan managed to turn from God but were not fully on his side either and fell from heaven, but were not condemned to hell. Read the fucking Koran infidel faggot before you spout off shit you know nothing about.
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>>82992592
Djinn are an expression of the same supernatural concept as carries etc, minor dirties associated with mundane everyday shit that in a post-christian/Islamic world got shoved into a category between angel and demon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius_(mythology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igigi#:~:text=Igigi%20are%20the%20mythological%20figures,were%20half%20human%20half%20animals.
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>>82979112
Griffons are fine.
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>>82988521
That's actually such a cool concept, the blog I found looking that up is really cool too, I wish people cared about folklore more
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>>82985680
The Old testament was written in the late bronze age, specifically AROUND the time of the bronze age collapse I think. It's basically saying that the jews couldn't conquer Canaan past a certain point since their foes were more technologically advanced than them.
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>>82988795
>>82988849
For most of the history of witch hunting, the best hope for someone accused of being a witch was to actually go to the church because of this. It's really only after Protestantism became a thing that witch hunting turned into what people believe it was today. Which is especially ironic since in England at least, witch hunts were essentially just a way to get rid of any remaining Catholics in England
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>>82995010
t. victim playing papist
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>>82995167
Interesting information. Not sure how it's supposed to refute anything I said given that it's post-protestantism and also not in england.
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>>82995167
>Protestants did bad things
>Yeah, but Catholics did bad things too!
At some point you should look into using your head for more then a hat rack.
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>>82995192
>>82995231
Papists did far more bad things than Protestants. The Albigensian Crusade, the Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Day, the list goes on and on. And that's not even addressing the 1000 years of boyfucking.
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>>82995763
Not him but
>did more bad things then Protestants
Fifty
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>>82995816
>Fifty
Underestimation.
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>>82979875
>if you marry a Huldra in a Christian church her cow tail falls off
What's even the point then, without the tail she's not even a monster girl just some forest bimbo
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>>82994969
what a weak god.
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>>82995763
>1000 years of boyfucking
wat
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>>82996668
The Catholic church has been literally raping children nonstop for a whole millennium. Here's one of their saints complaining about the boyfucking already in the 11th century:

>The Liber Gomorrhianus (Book of Gomorrah) is a book authored and published by the Benedictine monk St. Peter Damian during the Gregorian Reformation circa AD 1051.[1] It is a treatise regarding various vices of the clergy, and the consequent need for reform.

>Bishops and priests were involved in every kind of immorality, publicly living with concubines or illicit wives, or furtively engaging in homosexual practices, following an example set by the scandalous Pope Benedict IX. "For Damian, the issue of homosexuality within the clergy is deeply related to the dignity of the priesthood."[4] Damian believed that the profligate and licentious behavior of the clergy undermined ecclesiastical authority and was beginning to provoke outbursts of violence from an outraged laity, which threatened civil order.

>He was especially indignant about priests having sexual relationships with adolescent boys. He singles out superiors who, due to excessive and misplaced piety, have been lax in their duty to uphold church discipline. He opposes the ordination of those who engage in homosexual sex and wants those already ordained dismissed from Holy Orders. Those who misuse the sacraments to defile boys are treated with particular contempt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_Gomorrhianus
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>>82979112
>In Christian medieval folklore, did the fey and other supernatural folk recognize God the Father?
In Sweden some of them did, according to some folk tales.
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>>82996703
the pedo church must be dismantled
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>>82979112
All creatures were ultimately subject to God. Most literature about fairies doesn't reference their religion at all, and anyone talking seriously about fairies tried to fit them into the Christian canon. Generally they were seen as a superstition by educated people.
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i hate japan so much it's unreal.
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>>82979426
Could be because those bells are so damn loud.
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>>82980026
That was a pretty prevelant strain of thought by the renaissance. A misunderstanding of Daemon developed that believed them to be beings with light and changeable bodies that lived in the sky with intelligence and power far beyond humans, which could move about with incredible speed, and that generally wanted to be left alone and wanted nothing to do with them. Robert Kirk and Robert Burton (who didn't believe in them but recorded it in his almanac) are my sources for this, and you can see it fuse with the existing concept of fairies to provide a stereotypical foundation in works like Midsummer Night's Dream.
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>>82979426
this image would be better if the artist had cross hatched the scales individually rather than just have the scales give way into cross-hatching.
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>>82979112
>Christian medieval folklore
The Catholic Church's stance during the Middle Ages on folklore was it didn't exist, none of it. Including shit like witches and fairies, it was seen as common superstition by the literate elites of the Church.
>The supernatural creatures weren't really seen as demonic.
They were seen as stupid peasant superstition. Somewhat harmless, but good to discourage.
Calling them demonic gave it too much credit.
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>>82979112
What you're thinking of is a product of no one post-1950 understanding what people in the middle ages actually believed, and forming the Hollywood Interpretation. Skepticism was not the tool for "le ebic natural philosopher fighting against the church," it was THE tool for clerics and monks to understand the works of God, which they considered to be everything. (It's really only after the Enlightenment a "God vs Science" dynamic starts to form, which is still stupid, but not the point of the post.)

As multiple anons have stated, depending on the era, most people didn't really believe in the folk traditions, they just kept them as a cultural thing. More importantly, however, the Church, believing in the primacy of the LORD and skepticism in tandem, would not have any spurious claims of the supernatural. Even if you consider the beliefs of backwoods serfs to be "Christian Medieval folklore", instead of the actual Church's stance, then God and Satan were above and beyond them, and the old spirits and gods and mythological elves and stuff were incredibly irrelevant except in bumfuck where the nearest priest or chapel was a half-days walk away/
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>>82992881
Your prophet is a pedophile and many of your fellow Muslims like to fuck young boys.
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>>82979112
Yo, can people give actual period sources rather than blurting out this or that? like give an example from a chronicle written in 1245 or something.
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>>82988795
>For fey to exist, they would have to have power not of god, which is impossible. All power can come through god and god alone
So how about Satan?
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>>82992881
Koran actually spends time explaining all of this in detail. Djinn were the first experiment in creating a people to live on the Earth. They were made out of smokeless fire and as a result have no specific determinate form. Since they were unruly and wild, God tried again and made Adam out of clay.

Angels were made out of light and have no individual wills of their own at all and cannot rebel against god like in christian theology. There is no rebelling third of the host bullshit in islam. All devils, spirits, and other supernatural things are Djinn fucking with people.
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>>82995010
That's mostly due to the Catholic church having a very large leadership class, lots of people in the bureaucracy and a centuries old study and instructions and procedure for dealing with supernatural things like ghosts, witches, demons etc. Half the time the bureaucracy stamped out the witch hunting mobs, or the local Bishop would put an end to the ignorant villager nonsense before it got too bad.

Protestants did not have the same level of upper crust running things for the local priests to go to for info on dealing with an accused witch. Nor did they have the set in stone procedures for finding, judging and dealing with them. It was all too often up to the individual judgment call of the local village preacher to make on their own without help. So you ended up with a of lot half educated local priests going along with the village mob too and joining in the witch trial.

Also Catholics were way more concerned with dealing with non-Catholics in their communities and no as much with a parish member that just might be some super secret Satan Worshiper hidden among them.
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>>82979112
Overall, Christianity only recognizes Divine magic as real. Even devils are fallen angels, and therefore get their power through God's will. Witches weren't burnt at the stake for having magic, because Christians didn't believe they actually had magic. They were burned for not being Christian. Some branches of the faith have absorbed fey elements, similar to how Islam absorbed elements of pre-muslim Arabian folklore. Basically fae and djinn are neutral third parties, more like humans that angels or demons. As such they can pick any faith they want, and can choose to sin or be virtuous.
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>>83002032
>Since they were unruly and wild, God tried again and made Adam out of clay.
why is god always so incompetent?
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>>83001527
>Skepticism was not the tool for "le ebic natural philosopher fighting against the church," it was THE tool for clerics and monks to understand the works of God
Well, that ain't true. While the church did indeed dismiss many things as superstition, hubbub, and baseless paganism, the philosophical skepticism would not become the primary means of reaching truth among educated Europeans until after 1562.
>It's really only after the Enlightenment a "God vs Science" dynamic starts to form
Correct, but primarily because the scientific method as we understand it to exist today was not in use at all at that point. At best, you can point to specific individuals who used a similar process in relative isolation - your Roger Bacons and the like.
>most people didn't really believe in the folk traditions, they just kept them as a cultural thing
This is pretty much correct.
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>>83002145
Protestants could only thrive in areas where the fuedal order was already broken down so they also had more of a financial incentive to basically steal land from widows and kick squatters out that wouldn't necessarily be there on a fuedal estate
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>>82996030
Different perspectives. Also, instant devoted wife.
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>>83006149
go fuck yourself bumpfag, I'm not in the mood for you today.
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What do you guys like the most about the fey? Their connection to nature, to life? The mystery surrounding them?
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>>83007061
I like how they are not bumpfaggots that keep a dead and useless thread alive for an extra day. That's pretty cool of them really.
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>>83007868
Thanks for bumping. Why do people complain about bumps anyway? You're not a jannie, why would you care about a threat you don't want to participate in?
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>>83002154
he just hired a poor development team
things will be fixed before the product ships, honest
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>>83007061
Elf titties
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>>82988521
I've wanted to do a setting focused on a cold war between demons and fairies for a while now, and I think you just gave me the detail I needed to make it work.
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>>83009075
What have you come up with so far?
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>>82996668
>>82996703
>>82998862
>>82995763
Reminder that while a problem, it's no more a problem than it is for the general population generally, which is pretty amazing considering that it's a target for those who want access to kids.
Also reminder that before the church existed boyfucking and paedo shit was just seen as "normal" and wasn't illegal. You can say that the Church living up to its own standards (certainly isn't today) but you can't say that it has to be dismantled to preserve those standards
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>>82979112
Depends on who’s telling the story. I like the take from Ancient Magus Bride where they’re basically lesser gods who hate capital G God because they think he’s selfish, call him the conqueror god.
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>>83010597
what about per capita?
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>>83010597
Reminder that your pic:
1) Isn't per capta;
2) Only accounts for *reported* cases of sexual abuse of children by priests;
3) Intentionally misrepresents statistics to protect the church.
The reality is much worse than what Catholic apologists would like us to believe.
>Some 216,000 children - mostly boys - have been sexually abused by clergy in the French Catholic Church since 1950, a damning new inquiry has found.
>The head of the inquiry said there were at least 2,900-3,200 abusers, and accused the Church of showing a "cruel indifference towards the victims".
>The inquiry found the number of children abused in France could rise to 330,000, when taking into account abuses committed by lay members of the Church, such as teachers at Catholic schools.
>The report, which is nearly 2,500 pages long, said the "vast majority" of victims were boys, many of them aged between 10 and 13.
>It said the Church had not only failed to prevent abuse but had also failed to report it, at times knowingly putting children in contact with predators.
>"There was a whole bunch of negligence, of deficiency, of silence, an institutional cover-up," the head of the inquiry, Jean-Marc Sauvé, told reporters on Tuesday.
>He said that until the early 2000s, the Church had shown "deep, total and even cruel indifference" towards victims.
>"The victims are not believed, are not listened to. When they are listened to, they are considered to have perhaps contributed to what they had happen to them," he explained.
>He added that sexual abuse within the Catholic Church continued to be a problem.
>While the commission found evidence of as many as 3,200 abusers - out of a total of 115,000 priests and other clerics - it said this was probably an underestimation.
>"The Catholic Church is, after the circle of family and friends, the environment that has the highest prevalence of sexual violence," the report said.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58801183
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I think I remember something like that in one of shakespeares works, though it's not really folklore.
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>>83010597
>>83010676
>>83010682
If anything the church has been preserving the "standards" from before it existed.
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>>82988849
I don't know if you're a catholic yourself, but religious beliefs are not chosen based on what's more convenient. They're based on what feels more true.
You should know that human beings resonate to narratives that tell them they deserve to be punished. That's why christianity has its original sin in the first place.
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>>83010626
That fits with the church trying to stamp out pagan beliefs. Basically one god deposing his rivals.
Although I like the idea that the old gods have some old world values that would lead mortals themselves to prefer the one god.
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>>83010682
Catholics BTFO.

I wish the creepy ass Protestant sex traffickers in the US got the same kind of coverage.
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>>82995010
the reformation was a time of social upheaval
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>>82983083
Herr Mannelig is about a mountain troll woman proposing to a human. Mountain trolls are typically very wealthy, which is why she's promising him all sorts of riches. The song also calls her a liar, though.
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>>83002154
Bitch, you try to get it right on the first try when you start a new hobby.



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