Is it just me or is America not producing wargames like it used to? GW, Warlord, Corvus Belli, TTCombat, 2FL a variety of smaller manufacturers - it seems like the center of gravity for wargaming is in Europe. What has the US done lately? Warmahordes and X-Wing? It seems like wargaming might just be dying in the US, or at least not in as healthy a state as Europe.
>US is creatively dead
>>82977064We collectively shifted to more profitable endeavors like video games and mukbanging.
>>82977064dunno about US but up here in canuckistan BattleTech is the only wargame I've seen played and nobody uses any new contentguess all the good shit has already been made in people's minds
>>82977140It's just rather strange when you consider the long history of American companies like Avalon Hill pushing forward the genre for many years.
>>82977158This too. Creative endeavors seem to flourish in times of economic boom, but the US seems to have been in one long recession for more than a decade. Right now the only wargaming companies that are doing well are the ones that have been doing it for 20+ years.
>>82977197Pretty sure the UK has been in the same stagflation, if not worse than the US, for the last decade.
>>82977064Some of us are trying, but we can't get specific feedback on what we're doing right or wrong besides "too complex" or "keep up the good work."
>>82977158>nobody uses any new contentBecause anything past the clan invasion is crap and anything not succession wars is worthless trash.
>>82977217>stagflationToday I learned that there's a word for that. It's nice to learn that I'm not the only person noticing this.
>>82977290No offense, but how young are you? People have been using that term since the mid-00s
>>82977324I'm 30I don't keep up with economic terms
>>82977064I have a big local Warmachine meta and the game is getting positive updates and new models continuously. As fast if not faster than 40K. There is Marvel Crisis Protocol that some PP guys designed. Also Star Wars Legion. Will Humgerford just left some other war game I can’t remember the name of but it’s not out yet. Beyond that kings of war and the game of thrones thing?Also America’s doing a ton of shit this board is just stuffed full of GW fags who don’t even play that game let alone something like Warmachine.
>>82977324Try the '60s with the collapse of the post-war boom of the late '40s and '50s
>>82978167>this board is just stuffed full of GWMuch like the shelves and tables of American game shops
I think a lot of the US wargaming creation comes more on the hobbyist level. Stuff like Zone Raiders, Spectre Ops, or TNT. Unfortunately the American tabletop gamer tends to gravitate more towards whatever the largest mass of smelly nerds plays nearby because putting effort into starting new games is hard. (It really isn't, you just need to actually make friends with the other people and if they actually like games they'll at least try it.)
>>82978442>It really isn't,It really is; most RPG campaigns fall apart for scheduling reasons - and those demand far less commitment, time and financially, than a wargame army and terrain.
>>82977270>succession wars>no word of blakemay blake strike you down for you insolence
>>82978614Come and get me comstar
>>82978614Wasn't BT basically on life support by the time the Jihad happened? In addition to suffering from Coleman-induced financial difficulties?
>>82978769It was happening at the same time Wizkids clicky tech Dark Age shenanigans were going on
>>82977064US wargaming is boardgames, and good wargames are being made every year, just look into GMT's catalog. >>82977186Avalon Hill was never really about miniature wargaming though, it was hex and chit type games, and those are still being made today.
>>82978800Sounds like a Dark Age in more than one way. BT never really recovered from FASA going under, did it?
>>82978844Battletech is going through a type of Renaissance currently, they sell that stuff at Barnes & Noble.
>>82978844It's finally coming back, as shit as Catalyst is as book layout, they are getting new player into the game.
>>82978570RPG campaigns are a completely different breed, you need multiple people to all show up on time every time while smaller wargames need 5 to 20 models and can use terrain that you either already have or is at the club/store already. Unless you're some absolute degenerate who preys on children at a Warhammer store there's nothing stopping you calling up a friend and coming in any given available business hours to roll some dice and move some mans. You don't succeed by treating smaller games like long-running RPG campaigns or weekly pick up games of [insert preferred brand here], you get in touch with your friends, find times you can meet up, and play a few games. Then you do it again when you all feel like it. It's great man, even a nurse with a newborn was able to fit it in his schedule.
>>82978844There's a 40k exodus right now due to GW becoming a bleed-people-dry-while-iterating-on-a-half-finished-game company. BT is around, has been complete for a long time, and Catalyst literally cannot keep up. Certain items are unobtainium right now.
>>82978925>There's a 40k exodus right nowlol lmao - it's bigger than everThat may have been the case in the dark age of 6e and 7e, but its biggest competition - Flames of War and Warmahordes shot themselves in the foot prior to reaching a critical mass to actually put GW on the back foot.
>>82978441I mean kinda. 40K will always be the game that pulls in the dude who doesn’t know anyone or anything and wants to wargame. It’s sorta shit though still and plenty of other games are selling and being played. 40K is like the old girlfriend you keep hooking up with even though you know how it’s going to end up.
>>82978993GW has in house hard plastic and is publically traded with a 4.5b market cap. They are always going to be the constant that keeps shit on the shelves. Privateer press really can’t get a decent box set together to compete with 40K stocking though they would like to go that route. They are just too much at the mercy of distributors. Really they missed their go public window. Flames of war I know dudes that play but have never seen someone actively stock it.
>>82979254>Flames of war I know dudes that play but have never seen someone actively stock it.I remember seeing more of it, and more of it being actively played than 40k back in like 2013-14, but that's also about when I dropped out of mini wargaming.
>>82977064I feel like American by disposition prefer competitive tournament games, which by nature of network effects will solidify into a handful of systems with the playerbase to satisfy this.
>>82977064Crisis Protocol is pretty big in my area. Obviously it's not GW big but it has a regular playerbase. ASOIAF tried to take off here but I think people didn't wanna go down the rabbit hole of painting and fielding an entire army again, even if ASOIAF armies are smaller than AOS or 40k. The big thing for most people is just availability for games. Other games are cool and all but if all anyone in the area plays is 40k then it's kind of a moot point.
>>82978570RPGs are shit because most of the people involved and those who were too socially awkward to make it as a drama club faggot, of course they fall apart because of flakiness and everyone being self absorbed. The only good RPG campaigns I've ever run have been exclusively filled with fellow wargamers met through wargaming.Which is really the point, you should be trying to find other wargamers to make friends with. Not people who play 40K, not people who hang around an FLGS, the people who collect multiple factions for their favourite games so they can run demos for other people, the sort who play more than one system and from more than one company. Befriend people like that and, so long as you're willing to indulge *their* pet system now and again, they'll happily game with yours as well, and most of the time you'll find you have at least one favourite system in common that can serve as a nice baseline.I was going to say "stop being an autist" but, no, unironically be *more* of an autist and stop trying to hang out with normies and wannabe normies.
>>82978167I thought Mantic was British.
Mageknight and Heroclix is american
The USA is creatively dead. They survive and remaking past glories or adapting existing works.What happens when your entire creative sector gets turned into a rent free foreverculturewar in peoples heads and they are too busy in an imaginary trench fighting other apes over brands and ideas to make anything of merit instead.Theres a reason the countries biggest exports are bad movies and weapons for brown people countries and nothing else.
>>82984169Not just bad movies, bad remakes/reboots and new and terrible entries in beloved franchises. Star Wars, The Matrix, Ghostbusters etc.I wonder what's taking Indiana Jones 5 so long.
>>82985375>I wonder what's taking Indiana Jones 5 so long.Securing the rights to Harrison Ford's likeness so they can CG his face on a body double because I'm sure he would refuse to be in it.
>>82985437either a joke's going over my head or you're forgetting that he did the new Star Wars movies and Crystal Skull
>>82985455He agreed to do the new Star Wars move only if they killed his character because he didn't want to be in it anymore and I'm pretty sure he's retired now.
>>82985437He's already in it. There were set photos.It must be fenomenally bad.I forgot to add in my previous post that the remake/reboot culture further cements the lack of creativity argument. They can't even make their bad movies original.
>>82977064UK has kind of always been the world hub for minis wargames so that's hardly news. but there's a decent number of US companies. I suspect they're 2nd place behind UK in terms of number/size of minis games. privateer press, wyrd, reaper, fantasy flight. dream pod is canada. probably a few others.>>82983920mantic is in the UK, yeah
>>82977064Wargames Atlantic is making new minis, and are allegedly working on their "Death Fields" skirmish game.
>>82985641I was going to mention this.Some pretty big companies like WGA and Reaper are moving all production state side.WGA is set to release more sculpts this year than GW. Lol
>>82977064Easier just to shit out games that are a shallow copy of previously successful games (nth edition ad nauseum) or just repackage something based on a recently popular film or book.Creativity is to risky and not that profitable.
>>82978993>lol lmao - it's bigger than everIt can be both bigger than ever, and bleeding customers out. A tiny drop of GW's player base is worth a lot of money to other companies, especially Catalyst who has never ever in its life been able to properly estimate demand for one of its products, and usually defaults on invoices before, during and after shipment. Catalyst spent years publicly denying that there was any demand for plastic miniatures for instance. Then they produced a box set using moulds converted from use for pewter minis, and filled them with recycled shopping bag plastic (Which yes led to tons of delaminations, gaps, air pockets whatever, some people got boxes full of unusable minis and catalyst refused replacements for overseas customers) and still they couldnt keep the product on the shelves. Then they announced a clan box, but never actually produced it, leaving the german rights holder to make its own box set using old citytech plastics and they couldnt keep that on the euro shelves. Fast forward to the kickstarter era and Catalyst is being dragged kicking and screaming into the plastics age, and seem to have caught up with Gee dubs ala 1997.
>>82978844spiritually no.physically it is currently.watch Catalyst pull a warmahordes and blow all that good will down the drain.if BT dies that the fans own it which is also potentially good.
>>82977324Lol, how the fuck young are *you*? Stagflation is a term literally invented for the economic malaise under Carter in the 70s.
>>82987246>It can be both bigger than ever, and bleeding customers outyes. the mistake is thinking that is indicative of any failing on GW's part. they lose bitter old customers every year, and they make more money than ever before every year. you think that's a coincidence?what GW realized, along with some other big games companies like WotC, is that there is really no money to be made in keeping current players, and especially veteran players, happy. New players are where it's at. New players have to buy everything, they're just starting out. They spend a lot of money in a short amount of time, and only really scratch the surface of the game so anything going on under the hood is not important. By contrast existing players are very demanding. They want balance, they want updates for their existing models. But they already have a lot of stuff, so they buy so much. Trying to please them takes a disproportionately large amount of effort but doesn't generate that much revenue. So fuck em.
>>82987589that sounds like fanbase fracking and a good way to ruin their fan environment. Old fans, vets are the ones that that do a lot for the game out of love for it, run events, bring people in teach them to paint and play and often buy armies in excess of what they need. most guys i know have a great many and keep them updated.this is the prioritization of the short term on GW's part, which is basically their aos model, pump out something new and then abandon it for the mostpart. maybe repackage it with a new HQ and a bunch of unsold sprue after 3 years like the new dorf-elf box.GW shouldn't listen to online people generally, that's what killed warmahordes, part of it atleast but when they chase the novel they should know that that well dries up. the honey moon doesn't last forever.anyway it's time to grog up battletech to avoid the GW fate, ree.
I think there are two elements to this.Firstly, the stereotypical American ruleset was appallingly anal and rule-laden, obsessed with minutiae and 'realistic' modelling. Not always the case, I have to say (one of the better rapid-play air combat games I've played was American, Wings of Fury I think it was), perhaps a slightly unfair legacy of Avalon Hill and the like, but still.Secondly, I think the lack of game club culture hurts. If you have to go to a shop to find some random stranger to play, you're going to hedge your bets and go with what's popular, and "hey guys, shall we try this amendment/house rule/something new" is going to be met with extreme suspicion of advantage-seeking. And if you're one of those who play with a set group of friends at each others houses, well you've GOT your own system(s), why bother with something new? Or try to sell it? They may not even think of distribution anyway.
>>82987385no one is a peoples champion forever
>>82988204blame americansgot it got it.
>>82978167Warmachine has updates, but is basically dead except for pockets where people managed to hold on despite PP's best attempts at ruining their game.But yes, beyond Xwing/MCP and malifaux, there's like, damn little mainstream wargaming stuff, but there's a shitload of boardgames which I imagine are better fit, being more portable and self-contained.
>>82988204Didn't a lot of UK game clubs outside of 5 grogs that meet in each other's houses houses fold because they have trouble reserving spaces>>82987589I dunno. Anecdotally there seem to be as many grogs as ever, but GW seems to be the only company actively trying to sell to kids and bring fresh blood into mini wargaming in North America. I don't think it's a grand conspiracy to ditch the grogs, considering how closely they worked with the ITC guys on 9e missions, and are actively doing balancing for the grogs. This isn't a behavior of a company that wants to jettison them.
>>82988204>Firstly, the stereotypical American ruleset was appallingly anal and rule-laden, obsessed with minutiae and 'realistic' modelling.So, like a Eurogame but not a boardgame?
>>82988548>GW seems to be the only company actively trying to sell to kids and bring fresh blood into mini wargaming in North America.In what world bro?fuck man i was brought during the first DoW push and i can tel lyou there are like no young folks here. except for 30 year old millennials.kids don't have 70 cad to spend on a fucking 5 man squad.the increase in game size and game cost, and honestly model complexity hasn't really helped kids come in.to date i know every game store in Ontario more or less as well as nova scotia and like there are 3 youngins, one of them came in with total warhammer.gw has since late 5e aimed for the collector, with more and more box sets and limited edition craps for those sorts and the WAAC types ironically following a number of PP's fucking trends but being immune to it because they have less community support.
>>82988590Eurogames are typically abstract boardgames.
>>82988643Maybe your retard-run FLGS who's 10k in debt and losing 1k a month has no kids playing wargames, but the last GW store I visited in Texas had quite a few kids.
>>82988289"Blame", no, just how the "play at shop" culture can work against trying something new. Also apologies, I got distracted and missed out part of the first argument; that the not-necessarily-true perception of the gaming culture's complexity hurt at a time when gaming fashion was moving towards simplifying and faster play (viz the rise of DBx, Rapid Fire et al)>>82988548The minor clubs I know of still exist (COVID permitting) but the space availability and cost can hit hard, especially if sometimes people don't turn up in numbers.
>>82987526>Stagflation is a term literally invented for the economic malaise under Carter in the 70s.Incorrect. It originated in the UK and was used in Parliament more than a decade before Carter was elected.
>>82988704>your retard runi know a fucking lot of them, including gw. this isn't a single sample size. 4 gws, 11 independent, only one of which has closed down and (that was pre covid) over the last decade (we always assumed it was a chinese money laundering scheme). so, of those 15 stores i know of only a handful of younger people joining and in one independent store only.this is not unique either i know a number of others in other locations that report the same thing.GW is entertainment, it has an opportunity cost attached as well as a real measurable cost. i think texas might be an outlier.
>>82977064heavy gear is canadian and it would still be played if the devs didn't decide the only way to buy it was from them directly.
>>82988704Imma add some shit onto >>82990902I joined in one of these stores, at that time 4e we had like a cohort of 10 or so teens and tweens.Where did those kids getting interested in the game go? what changed from 4e to 9th ed? Well center piece models, larger armies, higher costs, more model complexity, further interest in targeting the netdicks and WAAC types. 8-9th brought in a lot of people but no young people. seems to me that our hobby is going the model trains way.hell you could level this at the personality of the zoomers themselves but it seems unquestionable that in my area, eastern canada that shit's fucked
>>82991000>seems to me that our hobby is going the model trains wayCould be worse. We could be the North American historicals community.
>>82994392remind me. we consider getting new 30'somethings new blood.
>the most poorly paid workforce in recent history is unable to participate in an expensive hobbyeven hex and chit games are out of reach for a lot of millenials, zoomers, and double-Ashouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that Amerimutts aren't creating or playing much, they're too busy working unpaid overtime and multiple jobs.
>>82995309This is cope. If you can afford a video game console, the subscription, and a couple games -as most zoomers and millennials do- you can afford wargaming. The financial barrier is secondary imo. Besides, most Europeans make less than Mississippians.