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I guess I'll make the thread again: Edition

>Previous: >>82846856

Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game, Warcry, Epic, Warmaster, Underworlds, Aeronautica, Mordheim, Titanicus, Battlefleet Gothic, Man-o-War, Warhammer Quest, and any other GW system and boardgame are welcome.

There is currently a Kill Team General >>>/tg/ktg. Highly recommend to discuss Kill Team there until the dust settles.

>We are working on a mega archive with the rulebooks for the boxed and specialist games (don't share).
rebrand<dot>ly/gwsg
>Drop any missing files you might have here:
rebrand<dot>ly/gwsg-drop
>Current MESBG rules:
>you know what to put
/folder/yDBmCRRK#kI26Bcw-9vgxOnQICVbpsA
>Old links:
https://pastebin.com/dk8SFxht (embed)

Missing anything? Simply request.

>TQ
What is the single simplest rules change you'd make to improve your game of choice?
>>
>tq
Two blitzes per turn in BB.
>>
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>>82943047
I'd remove heroic strike, it invalidates all heroes that do not have it without having any redeeming quality
>>
Cant open the rebrand<dot>ly/gwsg link, just says requesting folder data?
>>
>>82943047
Bros... we've gone to long without a primaris release... our faction is dying... our game is dying... I can't h-hold on...
>>
>>82943255
No way, heroic strike creates lots of interesting plays.
>>
>>82943047
>What is the single simplest rules change you'd make to improve your game of choice?
Pikes +1 to wound against charging cavalry. Just for flavor.
>>
>>82944105
Not him, something to consider is that Strike delineates the three types of heroes in MESBG.
And delineating three types of heroes is no small feat considering how simplistic the stat block system is.
>bad stats + no strike, this hero stays out of any and all combat, probably a caster
>good stats + no strike, this hero is for engaging enemy warriors, maybe casting
>good stats + strike, this hero is for dueling other heroes/monsters

I'm willing to accept that Strike is overly simplistic, that a good combat hero w/ no strike is unfairly gimped by essentially a rules team oversight, but that Strike enables three classes of hero is inclination enough to keep it.
The only alternative I see is a significant increase in the complexity of stat blocks, and MESBG has enough moving parts that while more complex stat blocks might save a few good stats + no strike heroes, it would certainly slow the game down.
That's a bad trade any day.
>>
>>82943459
Help?
>>
nnnnnnnnnnnnNNNYYYYYYOOOOOOOOooooommm
>>
>>82944761
I want to see it next to the Phoenix
>>
If I buy the warhammer underworlds starter set, can I just play the game with the grymwatch and crimson court or do I need to get anything else to use other warbands?
Got them for AoS but I'm curious about underworlds
>>
>>82943047
that's only got a handful of ships in it, 0/10 for tiny ass space "hulk".
>>
>>82944255
>>82943255
What's Heroic Strike?

Are there any bad stat+strike heroes?
>>
>>82946522

+D6 to your fight value. Which is only used to work out who wins draws in combat.
Buuuuut, being able to beat draws actually means more than you think when you have 3 attacks apiece. At that point you're looking at around a 50/50 chance of rolling a six. So now who wins draws becomes super important.
Hell, even if the highest you roll is a 5, you can still use an extra point of might to make that a 6 as well. So we're back to working out who wins in a draw.

It's also why Batswarms with their ability to halve Fight scores are REALLY nasty as back-up for Hero-Killer Characters that can take those: Moira for definite, and I think Mirkwood and Mordor can as well. I think Angmar get something similar in a spooky flavour too.
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Some of my wargaming buddies told me they heard a rumor about GW making a new edition of Mordheim. While I don't believe it personally, it made me wonder: if they brought back Mordheim in 2022, how would it be like?
>keep the original setting and release LIMITED TIME ONLY made to order old minis so that fomo people buy them?
>keep the old setting but release the rules with new army starter boxes like the new Kill Team boxes?
>update the setting to AoS time line and just use those minis instead?
>release it alongside The Old World and use those minis to further drive their sales?
>>
>>82946522
>bad stat+strike heroes
The thing about heroic strike is that the worse your stat block is, you get exponentially worse value out of it. Gandalf the grey has a pretty bad stat block with poor defence and one attack, and has strike. Even if he strikes, he only rolls one dice to try and beat his opponent, so unless he happens to roll a 6 your strike is essentially meaningless, because now you are forced to burn more might to up your roll, and you still only have one dice to wound with. Another bad profile could be Durbûrz, who has Strike, 2 attacks, but has F4 - if he strikes against a F7 monster, he only has a 50% chance of actually getting to a higher value and as such for the spent point of might to have any effect.
The annoying problem with strike is how random it is in that F5 2A hero sphere of characters like Faramir, where some of the time your strike whiffs against a F7 opponent, sometimes you get nice strike but roll three threes, and sometimes you get through your enemy and just don't wound, making the win feel meaningless (even if it may have actually saved you from taking hits).
>>
>>82947078
As much as I'd like a return to old world Mordheim I feel like they'd probably do a AoS version of it, but with Underworlds and Warcry I don't see them doing it anytime soon
>>
>>82944255
>>82943255
Easiest fix to strike is to make it +D3 to fight value rather than D6, as it still gives a very solid boost to fighting power that can mean a big difference between similar heroes, but now no longer lets F4-5 shitter heroes suddenly automatically outjump virtually every hero in the game.
But this would have to be balanced by changing some profiles (balrog) and tuning down some crazy fight values.

>>82946522
>Are there any bad stat+strike heroes?
not really, as strike alone is pretty big bump to fighting power. There’s a good amount of F4/S4/2A/foot striking heroes running around (mostly men and orcs) and that’s about as generic as you can get before just reaching actually bad shaman-tier stats.

The biggest disadvantage heroes like that have is that their profile and cost tells you to pitch them into melee, but F4 heroes have an absolutely abysmal time in melee facing a 50/50 chance against F4 troops and straight outfought by elves.

>>82943255
Idk, I could see pikes getting a +1 to wound when charged rule like the dale knights, but one of the things I like about MESBG is that it incentivizes you to play in historically accurate ways without forcing the rules to make you play that way. The fact a well-ordered pike block is rolling 3-7 dice versus a cavalry charge’s 2-3 per fight is incentive enough, sticking a phalanx in the middle of unflankable terrain pieces is basically already a suicide charge for cavalry.
>>
>>82947078
I don't think that they'll do a new version of Mordheim, but instead do it with a new version of Warcry which we are due for soon. Or do an Age of Sigmar version of Necromunda, which Mordheim pretty much is, with such a big narrative focus.

I think the Age of Sigmar setting lends itself better towards a game like Mordheim. There can be some crazy giant abandoned haunted cursed city the size of a continent somewhere and there are motivations and means for every faction to be there. The Cursed City boardgame shows that there can still be a space for grimdark in the setting.
>>
>>82943047
Mordheim: dual-wielding CC weapons gives a -2 to-hit on the bonus offhand attack.

Epic: Armageddon: engaged formations may countercharge toward the closest enemy unit *or* the closest directly engaged enemy unit, ending unintuitive clipping attacks.
>>
>>82948494
>-2 to-hit on the bonus offhand attack.
Every instance of dual wielding in gaming seems to penalize the off-hand weapon.
Training to use two weapons means you can use two weapons effectively, if you train and can't use two weapons effectively then noone would use two weapons!
>>
>>82948524
Why do you think that every no-skill henchman in Mordheim has trained to wield two weapons effectively? Add a Combat skill to remove the penalty, by all means, but it's both silly and bad balance to assume that everyone dual-wields effortlessly regardless of their skill level.
>>
>>82948563
A silly assumption is that someone ina battle doesn't know how to use their weapon.
>>
>>82948589
Their weapon, sure, but maybe not two at the same time.
>>
>>82943047
>>TQ
>What is the single simplest rules change you'd make to improve your game of choice?
I want to fix 2H weapons in MESBG. Currently the -1 to duel rolls is way too harsh and no one wants to touch these things. I think 2H weapons are already punished enough by denying you a shield.

Maybe change the -1 on duel rolls into losing ties instead?
>>
>>82948653
So if you see someone holding a gun, you first assume they don't know how to shoot you?
>>
>>82946296
Yes, totally possible, assuming you've got at least Direchasm (S4) for Crimson Court, on account of their Hunger mechanic.
>>
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>>82948834
If I saw a man holding two guns then yes, I would assume he's not a very good shot.
>>
>>82948792
Idk losing ties punishes heroes and higher fight models but means low fight hordes are just getting a straight +1 to wound with no punishment
It fits with the way GW traditionally has traditionally done 2h weapons but frankly it just isn’t close to how they work and the benefits they provide in reality, where the big advantage of a longer sword is, as the name implies, that you have better reach and are more likely to win the duel

Maybe make it a choice between “better duelist from longer reach” giving +1 to duel rolls/fight value OR “hitting a lot harder” and give +1 strength
Make it more of a choice between it and a shield that provide inverted benefits

You can them make super zweihander stuff with guys like clansmen of lamedon or knights of the white tower and play around with making them +1 to wound but lower fight or something
>>
>>82947218
>that it incentivizes you to play in historically accurate ways without forcing the rules to make you play that way.
This is a really good point
>>
>>82947018
Fun fact: Blinding Swarm halves fight rounding down while the One Ring halves fight rounding up, meaning an F3 swarm would win ties against an F3 ringbearer
>>
>>82948524
>Training to use two weapons means you can use two weapons effectively
That's wrong. It's pretty much universally accepted that learning to dual wield in real life is more difficult and takes longer than learning how to fight with sane weapon choices. Worse, even if you do, a dual-wielding combatant has pretty poor chances against a combatant of equal skill with conventional weapons.

>If you train and can't use two weapons effectively then noone would use two weapons!
Yes, that's exactly why nobody in history fought with two weapons. In prepared battlefield circumstances, anyway.
>>
>>82948589
>A silly assumption is that someone ina battle doesn't know how to use their weapon.
This is Fantasy Chernobyl, City of the Damned, where religious fanatics and ill-advised mercenaries clash with literal ratmen and those who mutate themselves deliberately, actively trying to get possessed. God said "leave this place" and your warband ran towards it. Everyone in the ruins is, by definition, a fuckup. Of course some of them don't know how to use their weapons properly.

>Yes, that's exactly why nobody in history fought with two weapons. In prepared battlefield circumstances, anyway.
The real reason is that shields are really, really helpful. You dual wield weapons, but one of them is really wide.
Second to that, long and/or two-handed weapons are really, really helpful. If you have two weapons but I can hit you first with a weapon with greater leverage, you're fucked.
There are situations where two hand weapons are superior, but that's when a) the other guy only has one one-handed weapon or b) you're outnumbered and need to threaten or protect more areas at once.
Therr's nothing all that inherently complicated about using two weapons; even with a single one-handed weapon you need to be mindful of your other hand and ready to grapple with it, and if you're using a shield as was done for the majority of history you're actively using both arms anyway. It's just that you're rarely served best by putting a small weapon in the offhand.
>>
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Took too long but here it is. I'm not like that guy that pussy out of buying ruffians.
>>
>>82952975

IT BEGINS.
>>
>>82952975
Neat, though if the first item there is the Evil men Nazgul I'd suggest you just scour ebay for a bit for the betrayer only.
>>
>>82953112
First item is dwarf team for BB.
>>
>>82953126
>dwarfs in BB
Not based, not based at all
>>
>>82952975
Based
>>
>>82948838
It would be the latest starter set, I assume that has all the post-direchasm rules?
>>
>>82952975
Absolutely, unfathomably based

If you really want to make the golden king work, he actuallly synergizes brilliantly with the Mordor catapult. Take him, the betrayer (or any nazgul) out of Mordor, then a Mordor catapult with severed heads.
The combo of
>courage test or automatically removed from play + nazgul -1 courage + nazgul casting drain courage/sap will + golden king reducing test by up to 6
means you can easily zap a stunning amount of heroes right off the board in a single turn before they even hit combat
>>
K lads dubs decides my next MESBG faction

I have a bit of everything plus a big ass

>Mordor/BaradDur
>Moria dorf

collection.

I accept meme lists, Im already building arbalest spam corsair list.
>>
>>82952975

Ruffians are unironically not bad.

This guy has unironically done good with 1k points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfCioN5u9ew
>>
>>82954575
700pts of ruffians
>>
>>82954588
You fucker, stole my glorious ruffian dubs
>>
>>82954575
350 pts of ruffians and 350 pts of hobbits for comfy Shire games
>>
>>82954575

Smaug
>>
>>82954747

...double 47's don't count as dubs right?
>>
>>82954588
does two "unironically"s make an irony?
>>
>>82948524
>if you train and can't use two weapons effectively then noone would use two weapons!
I mean appeal to RL and all that, but that's pretty much the case. Dual wielding effectively in most cases is just masters showing off. There's some precedent for (renaissance dueling, in particular) using a sword and dagger or sword and buckler. and of course sword and pistol would become a thing a little later. But that's definitely the exception to the rule. You look at the history of weapons used in hand-to-hand through the ages and it's *overwhelmingly* either a single weapon at a time, or a weapon + shield.
And I mean, there's a reason for it. You can hook up with your local HEMA nerds and try it yourself if you want. It's awkward as hell. It looks cool, but I think the main reason it looks cool is that anyone who can plausibly get away with it is already an expert.
>>
>>82948494
>Epic: Armageddon: engaged formations may countercharge toward the closest enemy unit *or* the closest directly engaged enemy unit, ending unintuitive clipping attacks.
either this, or I'd overhaul half of aerospace. that's the only part of that rulebook where it felt like the writers let the little crunch-devil on their shoulders get the better of them.
>>
>>82954575
Hope you like Crebain anon. You're building a whole flock of them.
>>
>>82954575
fangorn
have fun crushing your local scene
>>
>>82954575
beorn and friends, radagast and eagles galore

though I'm not sure the top-table hyper competitive arbalest spam counts as a "meme" list in the traditional sense
>>
>>82954575
Moria with no Blarof, focus on Goblin spam backed up by lots of drummers.
>>
>>82954575
Theodred's Guard with an infantry contingent led by Grimbold.
>>
>>82954575
Denethor + WoMT list, but half your points have to be spent on trebuchets.
>>
>>82954884
>It's awkward as hell. It looks cool, but I think the main reason it looks cool is that anyone who can plausibly get away with it is already an expert.
Fucking not the case.
There's a reason the renaissance sword and dagger were used; if you're using a weapon designed to be used only in one hand, it is not "awkward as hell" to have a knife in the other hand to guard and shank someone.
Similarly and from hema, it is not "awkward as hell" to have a shield or buckler which is a weapon and is used the same way as you would a weapon; parrying, striking and blocking off angles of attack.
It's awkward once you try to use two identical weapons, or two weapons that should rightly be used with two hands each, or when the other guy's second weapon is a shield and yours isn't. But by the same argument sword and shield is shit because it's "awkward as hell" when the other guy has a spear and shield. You've just been outckassed in terms of kit.
>>
>>82954575
all spiders, only spiders
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>>82955298
>Similarly and from hema, it is not "awkward as hell" to have a shield or buckler which is a weapon and is used the same way as you would a weapon; parrying, striking and blocking off angles of attack.
This. In european tradition, I think people forget that shields are very much for clubbing people if you can.
>>
>>82954575
Angmar with dead marsh spectre spam.
>>
>>82954575
Angmar warg spam
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>>82954575
khand
>>
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>>82955655
LMFAO, rip to anon's wallet
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>>82955662
Ivan has chariots for 12-15$, it's not that bad.
>>
>>82954589
>>82954721
>>82954747
>>82954943
>>82955376
>>82955584
has anyone ever played as or against these meme lists?
>>82954978
>>82955023
>>82955032
>>82955551
these sound mean
>>82955041
is it lore friendly? I never remember Rohan names.
>>82955158
Is this even a legal list? One siege engine per hero of fortitude, cheapest hero of fortitude (Captain) is 50pts, Denethor is 35, White Tower Boromir is 160 or ally Fellowship Boromir for 95, and trebuchet is 80 per.
I guess we can do Denethor + Fellowship Boromir, two Trebs at 500pts, with 210pts left for WoTM which gives us 30 of them.

That sounds horrible.
>>
>>82955655

Ayyyy can you believe this is my least favourite option between all rolls. Oh well.

Just Khand or something in particular?
>>
>>82955703
All foot Khand lul
>>
>>82955662
>>82955677
Victrix sells plastic chariots too, three for $35
throw some Perry Koreans or Warlord Samurai in there and you're still affordable without needing to know any Ivans.
>>
>>82955697

Actually anon all gobling Moria with bats and the occasional monster is a very competitive list. Ruffians arent bad by sheer numbers and spiders also work altough I personally hate it (playing just animals with bases attached in a lotr minis game with some of the best sculpts in the industry).
>>
>>82955703
It's okay anon. Chariots can plug into any Evil army, even as impossible allies. You actually get the cute interaction of calling March with your chariots and it won't affect another March called from the other army contingent.

I still want to try Chariots with either Morgul Knights and their lances, or Harad Camels and their Impaler hits.
>>
>>82955703
whatever you want, but only khand, and actual khand, no proxies like >>82955726 suggested (but yes use ivan, shit's expensive)

best advice:
>don't bother with chieftains, 2 kings will do you fine
>horsemen are actually pretty solid, just remember to piercing strike and accept they're glass cannons
>a few footmen are sneakily handy for grabbing objectives or being speedbumps for your chariots (enemy charges footmen, run over your own footmen with chariot, charge enemy and enjoy)
>regular chariots aren't great, but a few can be pretty solid
I have a few khand models (king, 2 chariots, 4 horsemen) and have played a couple games proxying rohan for the rest of my warriors, they're actually very good.
I'd buy the chariots legit- the models are fantastic, the foot king is one of my favorite models ever- and then go to ivan for your horsemen. wouldn't do 3rd party, the khand look is very distinct and interesting, just getting some shitty mongols would be lame
>>
>>82952959
>the other guy only has one one-handed weapon
But there's no excuse for empty hands on the battlefield in the first place, unless you're standing by to fill them. You're right but it's also a trivial case.

>Therr's nothing all that inherently complicated about using two weapons
Positioning an additional actively moving component that sticks out in many directions is inherently more complicated than keeping a hand at the ready for opportunistic movement, and also than moving a shield which is _relatively_ consistent in shape and positioning. I have no idea how anyone could even argue otherwise, but this is 4chan after all.
>>
>>82955697
>has anyone ever played as or against these meme lists?
I have played hobbits, it is fun. Games rarely have good guy swarm armies.
>>
>>82955976
What is Laketown?
>>
>>82943047
>TQ
Don't have Overwatch use the unit's activation for the turn if they shoot before they move - it makes overwatch basically useless.
>>
>>82956028
Less swarmy than hobbits, as far as I'm aware
>>
>>82955853

Yeah I'm seeing potential, so maybe fate wasnt so cruel with me. I'll pimp the fuck out of models and I see they have no bow limit for horses, which gives me meme ideas.
>>
>>82955298
read the whole post. I addressed the couple cases where dual wielding was actually used. your examples of the few practical two weapon pairs are literally the same ones I cited. moreover they're kind of bad reference points for "gamey" dual wielding which is generally treated as if you're attacking with two weapons. when practically speaking if you're using a dagger or a buckler it is primarily to enable attacks with your main weapon and give you options.

>>82955502
nobody is forgetting that you can strike with a shield, it just wasn't relevant to the discussion. the shield was a constant through most of military history for a variety of reasons, but when people talk about "dual wielding" they are never referring to pairing a weapon with a shield.
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>>82956028
I mean, it's a horde but not on the same number level as hobbits, moria, goblin-town, maybe ruffians and woses if anybody ever brought them.
lake-town isn't really that much hordier than most armies, the big difference is that it's just really good, borderline or maybe even outright overpowered

in terms of actual stats, you get virtually the exact same horde potential out of regular orcs, the difference is that the master has an insane buff ability, braga is retardedly cheap for what he brings, and alfrid is basically a 5pt warband slot. add in bard being insane and it's a recipe for best army, and coincidentally never nerfed (despite other top armies routinely being nerfed after a win) and also super coincidentally being jay clare's favorite army that he always plays, and coincidentally keeps winning tournaments with
>>
>>82956300
>moreover they're kind of bad reference points for "gamey" dual wielding which is generally treated as if you're attacking with two weapons. when practically speaking if you're using a dagger or a buckler it is primarily to enable attacks with your main weapon and give you options.
I'm not talking about 'gamey' duel wielding though. I'm talking about any occasion where you have a one-handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, where it is always beneficial to fill that second fist with another one-handed weapon or preferably a shield. There is no occasion where I, holding a hatchet, would feel more confident seeing you pick up two hatchets instead of leaving one on the ground.
Yeah, it may not result in a video-game style of fighting where you attempt precisely as many attacks with one weapon as you do the other, but I don't think anyone in the thread is stupid enough to even refer to that.

Bringing the discussion back to /gwsg/ and Mordheim as per >>82948494, I'd suggest that the 'solution' lies less in nerfing two-handed weapons and more in buffing shields. If you want to be historical about it, shields shouldn't just give you a save, they should help you win fights and do damage just as they were used in real life. That said, the designers were bound by the rules of Warhammer Fantasy as per management mandate so probably couldn't change the shield effect, and I like the feeling that Mordheim has of throwing sanity to the winds.
>>
>>82956721
>There is no occasion where I, holding a hatchet, would feel more confident seeing you pick up two hatchets instead of leaving one on the ground.
no, but you also generally wouldn't bring along a second hatchet to fight with. and a hatchet is quite a bit smaller than most mordheim weapons, which would get far more benefit from simply using a second hand on the weapon or to grapple than from waving around something else.
>>
>>82956841
>no, but you also generally wouldn't bring along a second hatchet to fight with.
Why not, if I've already brought one and there's nothing else about?
>which would get far more benefit from simply using a second hand on the weapon
Knives, hatchets and truly one-handed swords aside (all of which appear in Mordheim), shouldn't then you get a bonus for having two hands on your one-handed weapon?
>or to grapple than from waving around something else.
No. If you each grapple range and there's nothing in your hand, you can restrict a joint or redirect me or maybe punch me. If you reach grapple range and there's a knife in your hand, you can simply kill me. Unless it's a heavily-armoured opponent (rare in Mordheim), you want your hand to be full of something sharp.
>>
>>82956618
I thought he keeps winning with survivors?
>>
>>82957277
He plays both.
>>
>>82956618
Just look at the top lists of the last Ardacon. 58 and 51 models at 600 points is definitely very much a horde.
>>
>>82943047
I FUCKING LOVE SPACE HULK.
>>
>>82956944
>Why not, if I've already brought one and there's nothing else about?
because then you have to carry it with you, and it's not useful. if you have room on your person to carry two hatchets, then you could have brought something more dangerous instead.

>Knives, hatchets and truly one-handed swords aside (all of which appear in Mordheim), shouldn't then you get a bonus for having two hands on your one-handed weapon?
because it's not crunchy enough? I'd consider this to be the "default" state, your regular to-hit roll represents your guy using a weapon normally.

>>82956944
>If you each grapple range and there's nothing in your hand, you can restrict a joint or redirect me or maybe punch me.
yes. which, when it works, all but guarantees a kill with my regular weapon. again, usually you'd rather probably have a shield. but there are damn good reasons that nearly all historical weapons have been either used with a shield or alone. and that the couple exceptions are things like bucklers and daggers that are used with techniques similar to a small shield. the level of mastery required to coherently attack with two weapons at the same time without compromising either is very, very high.

like really if you wanted to implement 2H weapons properly, I'd probably lump off-hand weapons in with small shields. make them less useful (or not at all useful) than regular or large shields against shooting, but in exchange make them better for defense in hand-to-hand. skip the idea of using them for bonus attacks at all. or perhaps do what some games have tried and simply let them give you a small bonus to hit with your main weapon.
>>
>>82957713
Everyone does Anon, that's why GW must keep it under lock and key and manufactured scarcity. The Disney Vault policy.
>>
>>82958326
>>82957713
You just know the next iteration will be with Gravis armors.
>>
Currently if you take dain and thorin stonehelm the erebor bonus is useless.

Do you think they will change it, or have a basically mandatory legendary legion?
>>
>>82958824
I almost think it would be more offensive if we got the exact old models with the newer more thinner cardboard stock from say Cursed City. It would give signals that the models were all printed in 2014 and have been collecting dust and they just printed new cardboard in China and called it a day for a print run of 600 world wide.
>>
>>82952825
Have you ever Heard of Kali /eskrima/kombatan? Its an amazing philipino Martial art that uses a 2 weapon style of fighting, with knives and sticks. Its badass and highly effective
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How is the new season of WHU? I've spent a few dozens of hours playing Underworlds Online and fell in love with the game. I finally have my own place big enough to set up a proper hobby room so I thought I might start small with Harrowdeep even though I'm not a huge fan of the warbands included desu.
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>>82959333
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>>82957713
They made the perfect system and ported it to digital. Then the studio that made it spent the next 10 years making it worse and worse and worse.

Space Hulk Ascension was objectively worse than Space Hulk.
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>>82959368
The new warbands are both kinda shit (though for different reasons), but mechanically the new season looks pretty solid so far. With some luck season 5 will avoid leaning on stupid gimmick shit too much, like Crimson Court
We'll get Gorlok's warband next week, so we're gonna see how the new standalone warbands shake out, but with Moolog and Hrothgorn being my favorite two warbands I have high hopes.
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Question for Mordheim players, is there a blank template for the Town Cryer page? I'm setting up a campaign and want to make my own.
>>82943047
>tq
I use the BFG updates, seems to help make attack craft spam less of a thing but its been a few years since I've played.
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Doing custom skills for the YCE (a revised fanmade Necromunda rulebook). What do you think?

[Leadership]
>Commanding Presence: Group activation of this fighter can activate fighters within 6" instead of 3" and can activate 1 additional fighter.
>Mentor: Get 3XP after mentor survives the fight (they did not receive Memorable death and were not captured). Distribute it between any other fighters who took part, 1XP per fighter.
>Inspirational: Use Simple action to test LD; on success make another visible pinned fighter stand up.
>Regroup: Test LD at the start of the end phase; on success fighters within 6" lose broken, insanity and can assist on recovery while pinned.
>Cover me!: Test LD when hit with non-template. On success swap with fighter within 3", they get hit instead.
>Battle plan: Once per fight may reroll priority roll after all players have rolled their priority dice.
>Tactical Deployment: When deployed can either Move(Simple) or Take Cover(Simple) as a free action. Up to two other fighters deployed this turn can do the same. Works when deployed as reinforcements.
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>>82961255
[Fanatism, a custom made skill table for Cawdor, Helot Cults, Genestealer Cults and Corpse Grinders]
>Tide of faithful: If this fighter takes part in the battle, their starting crew can include one additional available fighter with the lowest cost (above scenario's limit). If the entire gang is deployed at the start of scenario, you may reroll a failed bottle check once per battle.
>Martydrom: When another friendly fighter within 3" becomes OOA, they may test willpower. On success, do not remove them, instead they become active (or engaged if within 1" of the enemy). They are removed either at the end of their next activation or if they receive any unsaved damage.
>Protected by the flock: If this fighter is targetted by a ranged attack, each friendly fighter who is an eligible target and is not harder to hit during the target priority test gives an additional -2 penalty to it.
>Unshakable Conviction: When this fighter is selected by the Coup de Grace action, give them 1 flesh wound instead of removing them from the battlefield.
>Crucible of Devotion: once per round pass LD when an injured friendly fighter activates within 9". On success, that fighter stands up for free and activates as normal, but becomes Seriously Injured at the end of their activation. This does not trigger nerve tests.
>Zealot: Whenever this fighter sends an enemy OOA via close combat attacks or Coup de Grace, they restore 1 wound (up to their max on profile) or remove 1 flesh wound from themselves. In addition, they receive +1LD and +1CL until the end of battle.
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>>82961255
Mentor is a bad skill IMO, like just bad design. Regroup isn't powerful enough to be its own skill. Battle Plan is fine but is definitely going to lead to Battle Plan wars. Tactical Deployment seems very strong, but maybe still OK. I think maybe just 1 other fighter is fine.
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>>82961274
Are you taking all of Cawdor's cool unique stuff away from them? Why?
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>>82961274
>Vox Threat: an active or engaged fighter can do this action once per activation: select visible enemy and pass CL. On success, that enemy has to activate last and can't initiate nor be a part of group activations as if he was a part of reinforcements.
>Restraint protocols: when this fighter takes an enemy ooa via CC attacks or Coup de Grace, enemies within 9" have to pass nerve checks and enemies within 3" do so with additional penalty of -1.
>Non-verbal communication: Once per round when another visible friendly fighter within 6" gets hit by non-template ranged attack test LD. On success, but fighter is pinned and the attack misses if he was behind cover.
>Teamwork: this fighter can never be hit by friendly ranged attacks. Ignore him when randomising hits after shooting into CC.
>Breach & Clear: This fighter can Shoot as a free action while using a hand grenade with range of Sx3".
>Threat Response: Can spend Ready marker if to countercharge/counterfight if an enemy finishes a charge or initiates a fight within 6".
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The >>82961394 skilltable is a Palanite Drill.

[Shooting]
>Fast Shot: Shoot as simple with non-template, but any shoot actions after the first are at -1 to hit.
>Gunfighter: Unchanged, but can carry 1 additional Sidearm in addition to 3 weapons
>Fire Discipline: This fighter ignores Unstable on weapons. In addition, if the fighter's non-template ranged attack misses, they can ignore rolled ammo symbols on firepower dice.
>Marksman: If rolled a natural 6, can swap 1 Flesh wound into Serious injury and vice versa.
>Power Shot: If aimed, weapon gains an additional Knockback trait. If it had it, knockbacks up to 2" instead of 1".
>Tactical Reload: Once per activation can Reload as a free action. Successful reload gives +1 to hit to the next Shoot action with that weapon during current activation.
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>>82961310
Imagine this skilltable replacing Pious skilltable and that's it. Its dedicated to all religious gangs, not just Cawdor.
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>>82954897
What would you do with aerospace? It's pretty clean, IMO, with the entirely inconsequential exception of pointlessly talking about using minis for spacecraft when all they do is resolve a template attack.
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Played my first BB game of 2022 and what a blood bath it was! 1250 Exbition with Chaos vs humans, Grashnak and Mighty Zug present.

First half the Chaos received and from the first block there was complete carnage. The humans were being diced so hard, losing almost half their team within turn 5 from blocks and failed dodges. Grashnak immediately asserted dominance against Zug by 3d knocking him over which saw the humans left flank completely implode as the Warriors, goats and goat carrier tore it and mid field asunder. After a quick stall, humans continued nuffling and lightning first half, the Chaos scored 1-0.

Second half the massacre continued with the Chaos brutalising the humans, removing them down to 6 players! Zug fought valiantly in the middle and Grashnak failing a 1/9 trying to eliminate him, was battered into the cas box! Enraged at seeing their star wounded, the Chaos aggressively pulled Zug down and started to gang foul him. Unfortunately their bloodthirst got the better of them and the humans managed to run through with their catcher out of range of the chaos. A third foul splattered Zug into the cas box, avenging Grashnak but the humans scored to make it 1-1!

The human coach really, really took the abysmal dice and obscene casualty and armour rolls of chaos so well and kept his composure even when surrounded to exploit a gap to tie the game. Was an amazing game to start off 2022.

The Chaos team never stopped rolling hot block, armour and injury dice and the humans only really got their act together in the middle of the second half.

Both Grashnak and Zug performed incredibly, Grashnak essentially collapsing the humans flank immediately and brutalising Zug first half and Zug valiantly leading and holding the humans offensive line up till the very end.
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>>82956300
>they are never referring to pairing a weapon with a shield.
>never
I can cite a Matt Easton video where he does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuQ3dvw0oJ8&t=46s

Don't say "never", there's always an exception.
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>>82962255
Exception that proves the rule.
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>>82958188
>the level of mastery required to coherently attack with two weapons at the same time without compromising either is very, very high.
Why do I have to attack with my left hand at the same time as my right in order to be "dual wielding"? If I'm boxing and I don't punch with my left hand every time I do with my right, is that one-handed boxing now?
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>>82961394
You're honestly just repeating Necromunda's existing skill imbalances & lack of clarity in new ways. I don't see the point. Who ever takes Teamwork over Threat Response/Breach & Clear here? What kind of action is Vox Threat?
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>>82962830
Likewise, Fast Shot is still drastically better than almost everything else here >>82961464
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>>82962830
>>82962837
The goal of posting these drafts here is to find which ones are duds and which ones are too good.

Vox Threat is a basic action. I think that Vox Threat and Restraint protocols are kinda neat for crowd control, although I do agree that Teamwork might be crap. In general it is fine if some skills are favored (not fine if they are always go-to's). As for Fast Shot what do you think could be done? I'd prefer for Shooting skills to be generally weak, because shooting is a strong thing by itself already.

I plan to disallow picking a skill that someone else in your gang already has (but you can random into it). So you won't have Nerves of Steel everywhere.
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>>82962289
That saying means the opposite of what you think it does when used correctly.
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>>82952975
this is fucking great.
is it me or is LOTR the colorful game GW makes?
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>>82964061
LOTR is by far the best GW game
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>>82958862
The latter
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Necromunda should not exist.

Necromunda fans are ultra cringe.

Play 40k.
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Proceed back to your containment thread.
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>>82961997
>Blood bowl game rep, this should be fun!
>STAR PLAYERS STAR PLAYERS STAR PLAYERS STAR PLAYERS STAR PLAYERS blood and CAS, STAR PLAYERS blood and CAS
I'm starting to think the 2020 was a mistake.
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>>82967849
Its probably just a single bugman soi chugging shitposter who loves marvel movies.
Nobody with a functional brain likes star player garbage.
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>>82947078
There's an English version of Warheim ? I've seen some people play it in my lgs, in Poland, but the thing is I don't speak the language well enough to go through hundreds of pages of it...
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>>82967914
They are being pushed by GW as a DLC to keep the numbers up. I can understand the financial perspect but I hate when business goes before the game design and balance. Good thing is we have the rules, community and 3rd party mini manufacturers so GW can go suck a fat one.
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>>82967849
Star Players are pretty fun to use. It only really gets bad if you use the 1 man armies like Morg, Griff and Hakflem.

>>82967914
Their extreme popularity would say otherwise. It sucks being on the receiving end of the more powerful ones but the more "normal" ones are pretty cool.

>>82968192
Star Players were specifically buffed this edition sure but they're still an extreme amount of ingame money to hire.
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>>82968386
>Their extreme popularity
Citation needed
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>>82959368
Too damn expensive. And as other anon said, nothing groundbreaking yet - the best part of the season is the new fixed deck format, which might save the game from being bogged down in cardboard.
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>>82968386
They made the money in better as well and built more systems for the disparate team values (prayers) while making holding on to your money a bit more lenient as it doesn't bloat your TV but you might lose it so might as well use it on those nice and shiny star players.
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>>82963155
I actually really like the design of Vox Threat and Breach & Clear. They're both powerful skills which have limitations and I can see using them. Vox Threat's range simply being visible might be a little strong, but I like being able to shut down a sniper with it too.

You can't really fix a skill like Fast Shot if it's unconditional. Shoot twice is just too often going to be the best thing you can do. Limiting skills to 1/gang will help.
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>>82947078
I am working on my own Mordheim ruleset incorporating elements I like from Necromunda 17 and Blood Bowl. I will call it NECROBLOODHEIM and it will be to some extent setting agnostic.
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Preparing for the release of the Dragon Emperor and his sons. Still can't decide if the emperor should be copper or golden.

Who else hopes that the emperor will have some actually cool ability and not some +1F to all easterlings around him bs
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>Bring me my fuzzy mittens!
Kidding aside, 'Illusion' cards might be interesting.
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Why is Warmaster Revolution so much fun?!
Even when I'm getting my ass handed I'm enjoying the game.
Might actually invest in proper models
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>>82968941
> might as well use it on those nice and shiny star players.

I like that though. I get that a lot of people don't like the increased availability of Stars. I got Morg'd in FUMBBL and the BB3 beta and it was the eptiome of anti fun. But I think it is, outside of the big 3, fairly alright to use Star Players as they're either bashy support like Zug and Grash or just a useful asset like Glorial the uber passing elf girl.
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>>82962771

>striking with one weapon is the same as striking with two if both your hands are occupied with partnered weapons.

Anon, seriously stop and use your brain. Have you ever seen a boxer or any martial artist strike with both hands at the same time? How often has this happened?
"Dual wielding" is a convenient means of increasing your own personal defense rather than raising your lethality. Even when a boxer strikes he still has one hand up protecting his head. Almost every real world example of some one wielding two weapons is in fact a man carrying atleast one weapon for the purpose of parry or block. Sure he might be able to score a hit with his defensive weapon, but he's not using with the intention of preforming some kind of double strike with his main weapon.

The idea that landing a strike with a 3ft long razor blade is any worse than landing two strikes with a 3ft razor blade is silly. Ones more than enough to end a fight.
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>>82955655
Cut the torsos off the khand warriors and glue them onto fireforge games mongol horsemen and you can make the horsemen way cheaper.
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>>82971136
Here is one I did that way
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>>82969383
What if fast shot could only be done at -1 if the first shot missed?
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>>82971122
>Anon, seriously stop and use your brain. Have you ever seen a boxer or any martial artist strike with both hands at the same time? How often has this happened?
It doesn't happen, which is why I think it's retarded to insist that this is what dual wielding must represent on the tabletop.

>Almost every real world example of some one wielding two weapons is in fact a man carrying atleast one weapon for the purpose of parry or block. Sure he might be able to score a hit with his defensive weapon, but he's not using with the intention of preforming some kind of double strike with his main weapon
If I have two weapons and the opponent has one, engaging their one weapon with one of mine lets me strike with the other weapon. Likewise, I can cut with one weapon while using the other weapon (or shield) to make myself safe in a way that's much more difficult and timing-dependent with a single weapon. I have more opportunities to strike safely, so I'll be able to attack more often.
Overall I think that the problem stems from Mordheim's clunky attack system; it's weighed far too strongly towards whoever gets to strike first, and it doesn't account for how a shield is just as effective or more than a second weapon to help you get more strikes in within a given time period. I'm not saying that Mordheim's combat system is 100% accurate to how holding two weapons plays out. I am saying that it's a myth that using two short or light weapons at a time is particularly difficult or that it's somehow a disadvantage compared to holding only one of those weapons.
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>>82971968
>I am saying that it's a myth that using two short or light weapons at a time is particularly difficult
It is, for reasons already stated earlier in the thread.

>or that it's somehow a disadvantage compared to holding only one of those weapons.
That's a moot point, for reasons already stated earlier in the thread.

If you want to spout nonsense at least discuss the arguments given against it instead of baselessly repeating it.
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Thoughts on this Enforcer list? Dominion Campaign, no specific meta. Semi-competitive I guess?

Subjugator Cap - Shock Stave, Enforcer, Shotgun, Hardened Flak - Threat Response - 265
Subjugator Sarg - Shock Stave, Vigilence Shield, Photon Grenades - True Grit - 190
Subjugator Sarg - Subjugator Grenade Launcher, Photon Grenades - Fast Shot - 175
Subjugator Patrolman - Enforcer Boltgun - 130
Subjugator Patrolman - Enforcer Shotgun - 160
Enofrcer Patrolman - Concussion Carbine - 100

Alliance with the Guild of Coin

Typically played as two fireteams. Photons in each team for control. Ideally add another Shield so each team can have a nice tank up front.

Campaign strategy is to lean into capturing and selling gangers to make up for the lack of income. To me that looks like Webbers and Cyber-Mastiffs (for the Shock), but I'm open to suggestion. Getting a full 10 gangers will probably be my top priority.
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>>82971968

I agree with you on most of this, but your refusal to accept that "dual wielding" as anything more than fiction is cope.

The only reason you might use a dagger with a sword is a direct result of convenience. Any where you can bring a sword, you can take a dagger. Shields are heavy, large, and not always socially acceptable.

If you're the kind of combatant who values a defensive tool, your options are pretty much limited to arming yourself with a second weapon.

>If I have two weapons and the opponent has one, engaging their one weapon with one of mine lets me strike with the other weapon

It sounds like you are trying to promote the use of two smaller weapons over something like a spear.

The guy with the spear, or any weapon intended for use in war is not at a disadvantage fighting against some one using a gentlemans weapon.

In fact a guy with a shield and a one handed weapon is going to crush a guy armed with two weapons.

Fighting with two weapons is at the bottom of the tier list. Its just not a thing you want to be doing, its a style born out of necessity.

The Daisho wasn't the samurai go to weapon for a reason.

>Mordheim's clunky attack system; it's weighed far too strongly towards whoever gets to strike first, and it doesn't account for how a shield is just as effective or more than a second weapon to help you get more strikes in within a given time period. I'm not saying that Mordheim's combat system is 100% accurate to how holding two weapons plays out. I am saying that it's a myth that using two short or light weapons at a time is particularly difficult or that it's somehow a disadvantage compared to holding only one of those weapons.

I rarely did 1v1 fights in mordheim, fair fights were not where I wanted to be. I do agree that shields were kinda poopy, though I dont remeber why. I remeber the sword parry being really strong.
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>>82972401
>"dual wielding" as anything more than fiction is cope.
I think you might be dumb.
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>>82943047
That all rulings are to be interpreted literally as read with no errata. You want to write vague rules, you get to deal with the buillshit results.
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>>82969458
nice models anon, love the NMM scheme
I'd wait to see the model before I decided on a scheme, but probably golden just cause he is the big leader.

>Who else hopes that the emperor will have some actually cool ability and not some +1F to all easterlings around him bs
kinda, though I do really welcome that buff. personally, I'm hoping they use him as a chance to basically get the golden king done right. I imagine something along the lines of;
>hero of legend
>F5, S4, D6-7, C5-6, 3/3/2(?)
>4A and 4W, maybe 6
>possibly +1 to wound off his spear/glaive thingy
>strike, strength, and resolve for heroic, possibly march and defense
>maybe banner effect, courage buff/fearless bubble, or fury-type save based off eye on top of litter
>probably a +1F bubble along with above rule, but could easily be something more creative
>probably a fuckload of rules as per easterling standard; blood and glory, unyielding combat stance (though model may not act like a normal infantry model based off size), maybe phalanx/gleaming horde, possibly even master of battle if they're going with wise eastern general approach
also kinda depends what niches they make for the two new other heroes, one's a shaman so maybe they'll leave the courage buffs to him, and the other looks like a regular captain so maybe a F5 striking-style named hero. or just new captain/war priest sculpts to fuck with easterling players

the easterling meta is looking at a rather large change with this release, not only are they getting 3 new heroes, they're getting a legendary legion, which combined are probably going to fundamentally change the way, and (hopefully) improve them a good deal.
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>>82969458
Those look awesome
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>>82971186
Very nice!!
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>>82972244
You’re right in that this is getting repetitive, so I’ll lay out my summary below and leave it at that.

Fighting with a weapon in either hand isn’t particularly difficult or complicated and it was done historically, with the most famous European example being the sword and dagger.

>but that doesn’t count as dual-wielding! Mostly you’re just using a weapon to block and one to attack!

It’s fighting with two weapons, even if you’re not striking with both at the precise same moment in time. Any turn in a tabletop game represents a few seconds at least, time for characters to feint, feel one another out and exchange a blow or two; in real life people aren’t forced to swing with two arms at once like robots.

>but it shouldn’t let you attack more often than a person with a single weapon, since you’re mostly attacking with your primary weapon anyway!

Having a second weapon allows you to engage an enemy’s weapon or block off an avenue of attack while having the other weapon free to attack with at the same moment. This gives you more opportunities to attack safely than if you just had your primary weapon, hence letting you attack more often.

>but you’d be better served putting both hands on a single weapon than by having two weapons at once!

This is true of longer weapons, however some weapons don’t allow for two-handed use (sideswords, knives, hatchets, machetes) and as stated above, a one-handed weapon still has a harder time defending and attacking simultaneously than two. The Book of Five Rings names a number of situations where it’s better to have two weapons at once, and although I’m ashamed to bring up such a weeb text, Musashi was a better fighter than either of us and should be listened to.

Cont.
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>>82972748
>>82972244
>>82972401

>but you’d be better served having an empty hand to grapple with!

No, I’d rather have something sharp in it so that I could cut your wrist’s tendons rather than holding onto it, or stab you rather than punch you. If for some reason I desperately need an empty hand, it’s the work of a moment to drop a weapon.

>but it’s complicated!

So’s playing the piano with two hands, but a professional piano player isn’t going to keep their job if they simply don’t train to use either hand.

>but it’s always better to have a shield than a second weapon!

I agree! I believe that in a GW-style game like Mordheim, shields should also offer you more attacks as you can use them to create openings and attack more freely with your primary weapon than if you didn’t have them. That said, a shield or buckler is a held object designed and used to harm others or deflect objects meant to harm me, which to my mind makes it a type of weapon. It is also not used passively; changing the angle, striking with it and consciously blocking off angles of attack are all important (unless you’re a reenactor who’s told not to use it to its potential for safety reasons). If fighting with sword and knife is complicated, so’s fighting with sword and shield.

t. 4th dan kendo (a game where it really is better to just have one sword due to scoring zones etc) and ex prison officer (who’d always prefer to be holding a second baton if one’s needed, but the law recognises that that would be excessive force as it would be overly harmful to the recipient. And who knows what it’s like to have someone trying to nick your riot shield).

Thanks for reading my blog, like and subscribe, have a nice day.
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>>82972764
>all that writing and I still cock it up
I don't mean that I'd rather have two batons than a riot shield; I mean that if I don't have a shield to hand, gimme two batons, not one.
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>>82968745
>the best part of the season is the new fixed deck format, which might save the game from being bogged down in cardboard
Isn't the format DAO thanks to old bands coming with not enough cards in their decks?
>>82960889
Mollog and his mates make my favourite warband on WHUO lately. Shame it's pretty much impossible to get a sealed box now.
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>>82972592
I did not know they are getting a legion! Are we also getting a new handbook?
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>>82973588
Defence of the north. sometime soonish
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>>82971237
If it's just 'reroll a miss' you probably don't need the -1. That's strong, even very strong, but it can only actually be one shot.
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>>82973588
yes, defence of the north will be covering the fighting going on in rhovanion during the war of the ring.

it's going to include six legendary legions and the armies within are confirmed to include dale, erebor reclaimed, lothlorien, thranduil's halls, easterlings, and dol guldur- though dol guldur will be some kind of mordor list rather than the hobbit-era stuff. maybe khand too, it'd be odd if the highlighted faction in the appendices isn't in it
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>>82944761
>That'll be 70 USD plus shipping
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>>82972764
I can accept all of this, but none of it really support your original point: that the original MH mechanics were correct to say that a minimally trained mook with 2 swords is twice as killy as they would be with 1 sword, and that it's unfair to nerf the offhand attack to be somewhat less effective.

It's also the simplest way to fix Mordheim's internal balance and make shields and bucklers at all worthwhile (as-written they're a trap option with no utility whatsoever). Losing half your attacks for a minor bump in survivability is never a worthwhile trade, but making offhand attacks less effective reduces the opportunity cost of taking a shield or buckler (or any two-handed weapon) to the point that it actually makes some sense to take them in-game. Could you also fix that internal balancing by increasing the stats or adding special rules to bump halberds, 2HWs, spears, then add some sort of (historically accurate) offensive utility to shield and bucklers? Sure, I guess, but starting from OG Mordheim as a base that's a far more complicated suite of changes to make than simply adding a -2 mod to offhand attacks.
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>>82975537
>but none of it really support your original point
>that it's unfair to nerf the offhand attack to be somewhat less effective.
except he didn't make the original point, I did, and I have been plenty happy the past two or three days to watch that other anon do a better job of arguing than I would have.
>fix balance
Life isn't fair, get over it.
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>>82976070
>'ate 'istorical accuracy
>'ate good game design
>'ate makin me own arguments
>love being wrong on /tg/
>simple as
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>>82976134
>livin rent free in your head
>eatin popcorn
>enjoying show
simple as.
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>>82972748
>Fighting with a weapon in either hand isn’t particularly difficult or complicated
If you only plan on using your off-hand weapon as a worse buckler with less surface area, then yes. Which, granted, has its use cases but also limits the effectiveness of an already poorly performing loadout. If you're properly fighting ambidextrously you need to be able to "switch functions" of your weapons inbetween and during moves, to a much greater degree than is required for shields and bucklers.

I hope any of that makes sense because I don't really know English swordplay terminology.

>Having a second weapon allows you to engage an enemy’s weapon or block off an avenue of attack while having the other weapon free to attack with at the same moment. This gives you more opportunities to attack safely than if you just had your primary weapon, hence letting you attack more often.
Theoretically yes, but that's only really so in the trivial case where you're up against an opponent with even worse weaponry. If you get to the abstraction level where you're accounting for increased attack opportunities in a game it's only fair to include factors to balance it out, like reach and strength.

>The Book of Five Rings names a number of situations where it’s better to have two weapons at once, and although I’m ashamed to bring up such a weeb text
Please don't, I want to know more.
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>>82976907
>Please don't, I want to know more.
Ah fuck, alright.
Man called Musashi was very good at killing people with swords, and he wrote a book about it. I'm hoping you can find it online for your language, but here's his thoughts on fighting with a Japanese katana. Bear in mind that "sword" or "long sword" are here used interchangeably for a "normal length" sword, while "companion sword" is referring to the second short sword. He's not talking about extra-long swords, nodachi or the like; those are discussed elsewhere in the book.
>If you hold a sword with both hands, it is difficult to wield it freely to left and right,
so my method is to carry the sword in one hand. This does not apply to large weapons such as the spear or halberd, but swords and companion swords can be carried in one hand. It is encumbering to hold a sword in both hands when you are on horseback, when running on uneven roads, on swampy ground, muddy rice fields, stony ground, or in a crowd of people. To hold the long sword in both hands is not the true Way, for if you carry
a bow or spear or other arms in your left hand you have only one hand free for the long sword. However, when it is difficult to cut an enemy down with one hand, you must use both hands. It is not difficult to wield a sword in one hand; the Way to learn this is to train with two long swords, one in each hand. It will seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first. Bows are difficult to draw, halberds are difficult to wield; as you become
accustomed to the bow so your pull will become stronger. When you become used to wielding the long sword, you will gain the power of the Way and wield the sword well.
>>
>>82977931
>It is not difficult to wield a sword in one hand; the Way to learn this is to train with two long swords, one in each hand.
Anon who derided nerfing duel weilding in the first place here.
It sounds to me like Musashi is saying to train this way specifically, not that he intended to fight with both, more that by training with one in each hand you would prevent yourself from two handing reflexively during training.
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>>82978131
Yeah, that's my interpretation too, however the guy was known for using a short and long sword at once; there's kind of an entire sword tradition named after him.
In any case, a capable and very influential (in the region) historical figure advocating for training with two full-sized weapons tells me that fighting with a sword and dagger against someone with a sword (say) is hardly an insane feat that would require incredible training like some would suggest. It's very doable and opens up your options for more attacks in the way I've previously mentioned; by letting you engage their weapon or keeping yourself safe while attacking with your other weapon.
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>>82974196
Interested to see Dol Guldur get an update. Imagine it might play like Angmar with wights & wraiths? Castellans were always interesting.
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>>82980928
I hadn't even thought of castellans, man they would pair really fantastically with the list we have so far

so far it's
>razgush, hero of valor orc with 3's in all the right places except F1, basically shittier shagrat that really doesn't like elves
>muzgur, kinda neat caster with OK offensive powers that gets will each time he kills a model, which at F4 2A isn't impossible
>preview of what legion will likely include in razgush's profile, can only take regular orcs, fell wargs, both flavors of spider, and warg riders
>most importantly, can take bat swarms too, and orc captains in an army with him can do all the same (without restriction to other stuff)
a bat swarm + castellan with morgul blade dropped inside a big orc horde actually has a lot of potential
>>
Who here is ready for titanicus to get squatted this summer?
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>>82981214
this is what they get for falling for the inflation meme
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i dont know if you guys play cursed city but theres something i dont get from this guy. with tomes of death that hostile targets another hostile and attacks, so does it have to be adjacent to that hostile? because it only says that glimscry has to be able to see both, idk maybe im wrong
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I live in a place where gang violence is normal and noone is running around with 2 bats/knives/machetes
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>>82961296
Why do you find Mentor skill's design bad? Its kinda like fixer but for XP.
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>>82981214
If we are lucky
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Anyone here who play either fyreslayers or kruleboyz in warcry?
I wanna start one of 'em but I am clueless to the game in general, would like something fun but fair
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is this the worst terrain kit GW has ever released?
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>>82981572
Depends on the weapon action of the puppet.
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>>82983534
I'd buy several if it was like 10-15€
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>>82977931
>>82978131
musashi's a cool guy and all, but it's hardly relevant.
the whole discussion was about mooks being able to pick up and dual wield any weapon combo and attack twice at with no real downside. one of the first posters in the chain straight up said you could have a skill that eliminates it for characters that are supposed to be highly trained in dual wielding. which in my mind applies to any examples of fencers with daggers, eskrima fighters, and certainly to musashi. yes, if you dedicate your life to learning a 2-weapon fighting style, you can do it. It's just not easy or common.

the criticisms were all leveled against the anons saying you unambiguously want something in your second hand if you're fighting with a one-handed weapon. which is just blatantly false. if it was actually that good, everybody would do it. it wouldn't be just this narrow subset of fencing that uses a second weapon, it would be all schools of fencing. world militaries would be equipping and training with 2 knives, or knife and convenient ad-hoc weapons, and their training would tell you to pick up a 2nd weapon if it was available. military history would be full of examples of dual-wielding, instead of them being relatively sparse.
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>>82983534
>It could be cool
>60
Da fuq? If I was feeling like wasting money I would have payed 20. The hell is the pricing on that thing
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>>82983534
60 dollars for something even a half retarded enthusiast could make with sprues.
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Gorkamorka orks swimming in tuna oil. :)
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>>82984455
Btw whats how to remove super glue? Seems the guy who owned these before superglied the sand to the bases.
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>>82984468
Nail polish remover fixes superglue, but I seem to recall that it can soften certain plastics too and while I've not had trouble with mini plastics I have experienced bases going soft. I'd recommend going in with a knife and peeling the sand off as a whole; job doesn't need to be perfect if you intend to rebase anyway
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>>82977931
Cool, thanks

>>82978305
Well I agree learning how to fight ambidextrously isn't
>an insane feat
By any strech of the imagination, but I don't see how it makes sense to you that learning dual-wielding has no inherent additional difficulty at all.

What part of learning, say, sword&board, compensates for having to learn how to parry with either weapon? How to change which weapon is attacking mid-move? The footwork required to keep both weapons as viable options for attack instead of locking yourself into one offensive and one defensive tool?

>>82983853
>the whole discussion was about mooks being able to pick up and dual wield any weapon combo and attack twice at with no real downside
No not really, that's a very shallow reading of the conversation to be frank

>>82983853
>you unambiguously want something in your second hand if you're fighting with a one-handed weapon. which is just blatantly false.
It's true, actually. Going from one one-handed weapon means going from the second-worst loadout on a battlefield (the worst being unarmed) to the third-worst loadout on a battlefield. Fighting with two one-handers puts you at a significant advantage compared to fighting with one one-hander. The reason you don't see it done very often in history is simply because the third-worst option is still not very good.

A single one-handed weapon is a fallback option. People who fight with one-handed weapons are messengers, banner bearers, doctors, etc. forced into combat through desperation. In modern terms, too, knife-fighting is a back-up option for when things have already gone to shit.

I believe the reasons militaries don't teach you to dual-wield are purely practical: limits to equipment weight, limits to training time, the legal thing mr. policeman mentioned. Not because fighting with one knife is somehow more powerful than fighting with two. After all it takes a split-second to yeet one of your knives at your opponent's face and then you have one knife again.
>>
Do we know when war in the north will be released?
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>>82983534
No, it's actually really fucking good. Especially when mixing it in with other walls and structures
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>>82984598
>What part of learning, say, sword&board, compensates for having to learn how to parry with either weapon? How to change which weapon is attacking mid-move? The footwork required to keep both weapons as viable options for attack instead of locking yourself into one offensive and one defensive tool?
I'd argue two points; first of all, I'm not defining "dual wielding" as "fighting completely ambidextrously with two weapons at once, both used equally for attack and defense and able to switch at any moment". My definition of dual-wielding is "engaging in a fight with a weapon held in both hands", which encompasses using one weapon mainly for defense and mainly for offense. If the former is your definition, then I'd argue that the concept is ahistorical superhero ninja nonsense and you can rest assured that I've never argued for it. It would be like saying "it's not a japanese sword unless it can cut cleanly through an enemy sword and body in one stroke".

>sword&board
A shield isn't a passive piece of armour, it's a handheld defensive weapon that needs manipulation. To use a shield effectively involves constantly evaluating how much you want to limit your primary weapon vs how much you want to limit your opponent's, how much you want to limit your visibility vs how much you want to protect your head, whether you should have your shield side forward (when it's time to defend) or your sword/axe/spear side forward (when you need the reach) and the corresponding footwork, whether your shield is damaged and where the damage is, how to adjust if something gets stuck in the shield (a common historical occurrance that can't be simulated in HEMA), when it's time to strike with the shield vs when it's time to strike with the primary weapon etc. I'm not saying that it's as complex as trying to handle a sword and dagger and a shield is certainly a huge advantage for winning a fight, but it's not like fighting holding two weapons at once is magic by comparison.
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>>82983853
>the whole discussion was about mooks being able to pick up and dual wield any weapon combo and attack twice at with no real downside.
Nah, it was about someone on a battlefield who chooses to use two weapons can be assumed to know what the fuck they are doing.
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>>82983534
lol
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>>82984881
>I'm not saying that it's as complex as trying to handle a sword and dagger and a shield is certainly a huge advantage for winning a fight, but it's not like fighting holding two weapons at once is magic by comparison.
That's what I've been saying this entire time. Dual wielding is not magic, but it's more complex and therefore more difficult to learn.

>using one weapon mainly for defense and mainly for offense
That's fair and I agree: if you're using the off-hand weapon mainly defensively, it's about as easy to learn as using a buckler by definition. However, what you end up with if you do that is a worse buckler.

It just comes across as claiming "Learning to use a sword is no more difficult than learning to use a club if you define a sword as a sharp club". It's true, but it also misses the point. I believe there's a massive amount of nuance between "the dagger is used primarily for defense" and "both weapons are used exactly as much for attack as for defense", and exactly in that nuance is where the strengths of dual-wielding are found.

But I think we mostly agree and are arguing semantics. Which is fun, but probably tiresome for everyone else, so I'll stop here.
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>>82984884
>Nah, it was about someone on a battlefield who chooses to use two weapons can be assumed to know what the fuck they are doing.
if it's a very high XP character, sure. that's easy enough to represent mechanically.

>>82984598
>Fighting with two one-handers puts you at a significant advantage compared to fighting with one one-hander.
stop it. get help.

>A single one-handed weapon is a fallback option. People who fight with one-handed weapons are messengers, banner bearers, doctors, etc. forced into combat through desperation.
all I'm hearing here is that every single thing you know you learned from videogames
just look at swords. swords are ubiquitous up to the modern period, and most of them are designed primarily to be used in one hand. most of them are also designed with warfare in mind. some are two handers, or flexibly used in one or both hands, some would have been used mainly with a shield, some were backup weapons, and a very very rare few were designed to be used as a pair or with a dagger. and then you've got this huge number of one handed swords that were intended to be used in one hand, alone. why do you think that is? you think all these generations of people were just putting themselves at a disadvantage for the hell of it? why wouldn't they bring a 2nd weapon if it is unambiguously better to do so?
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>>82985839
not him. I do want to see his answer since he seems like a tard. But your post isn't airtight either.

>and then you've got this huge number of one handed swords that were intended to be used in one hand, alone. why do you think that is? you think all these generations of people were just putting themselves at a disadvantage for the hell of it? why wouldn't they bring a 2nd weapon if it is unambiguously better to do so?
plenty of answers to this, from the movie you've posted too
>the cavalry sabers they also duel with are meant for one hand because well, the other hand must hold the reins
>the small swords in that specific duel are frequently paired with dagger/main gauche/buckler for exactly a reason the movie shows: anything in the off-hand is better than literally catching your opponent's blade with your bare hand
>officers swords in the gunpowder era don't have a backup because either horse reins as before, or a pistol

It's worth noting that Cossacks of the same era would often carry both saber and knife. Predictably, there's plenty of one weapon cossack saber fencing, and two weapon cossack saber fencing.
>>
>>82985839
Are you the kind of person that thinks cowboys always fought with revolvers and modern soldiers run around with only glocks?

There's a million and one reasons to use a specific weapon or weapon pairing other than to maximize deadliness. Money, weight, time, easier storage at home, easier carry, less protruding parts when carried, better concealment, legal reasons, fashion reasons, signaling social status.

The discussion was always implied to be, if not explicitly made so, about _battlefield conditions_ where someone _chose to be_ in a _prepared state_. A single one-handed weapon is perfectly fine for day-to-day carrying. A single one-handed weapon is not perfectly fine if you're knowingly about to walk into a life-or-death situation where you're all but guaranteed to end up in hand to hand combat. Dual-wielding might be absolutely shit, but one-handing is slightly shittier than even that. If you genuinely think medieval battlefields were populated by armies of people carrying a single one-handed sword in one hand and nothing in the other, you're the one whose world runs on videogame logic.
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>>82986247
>The discussion was always implied to be, if not explicitly made so, about _battlefield conditions_ where someone _chose to be_ in a _prepared state
That's not what Mordheim is, retard.

Don't force your fake rules on this discussion.
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>>82986256
A skirmish still takes place on a battlefield, fuckwit. The whole fluff is "your band of lowlifes decides to walk into a city where everyone else wants to murder you to get magic uranium".
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>>82986286
in your dumb brain, does a glorified tavernbrawl also take place on a battlefield?
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>>82986293
Anywhere men fight is a battlefield. Checkmate asshole.
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>>82985839
>and then you've got this huge number of one handed swords that were intended to be used in one hand, alone.
Please show me any weapon you believe was "designed to be used in one hand, alone". As in having something in the other hand or holding it with two hands would somehow render it less effective. Because the fact that you think that this is a thing indicates to me that you've had no kind of weapons experience, even on the most superficial level.
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>>82986293
No, because Mordheim refers to the table as a battlefield but Brewhouse Bash doesn't. Checkmate, atheists.
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It's a bit small but the start is there. I don't think it's big enough for full gangs but at least i can play a small game.
>>
Anyone played the Corsairs vs. Far Harad matchup? Seems that if the Harad player invests in blowpipes, the Corsair player's warriors are all going to get murdered.
>>
>>82988615
Corsairs have crossbows and mass throwing weapons?
>>
>arrived with no bases
>>arrived before the white council MTO from 3 months ago
Still cool models tho
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>>82989018
also, now that I have razgush and muzgur, I'm trying to make some cool lists that center around them. razgush is pretty straightforward, but how do you think you build an army to get the most out of new lil death-huffing shaman?

I was thinking black numenoreans and a ringwraith probably pair best; draining courage or withering a hero a few times, hell even once, can totally take their value out of the game, and moreover burns a lot of their will to make the wraiths more effective.
or is there some other even better pairing I'm not seeing?
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>>82986256
>mordheim doesn't have battles
This is some insane levels of mental gymnastics to not admit you were wrong.
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>>82954588
Absolute legend
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>>82985839
I'm so happy my one shitpost caused a week long argument =D
Down with offhand nerfs!
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>>82991702
It was my shitpost, and these hands typed it.
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>>82992051
That's sad that you need to steal credit for a 4chan argument.
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>>82991702
I just really fucking love swords mate you have no idea, thanks for the opportunity
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>>82988094
2x2 is just fine for Necromunda. Good board.
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>>82943047
I'd give the vengeance grand cruiser 14 gun batteries instead of 10. It costs the same as a Repulsive grand cruiser, has no torpedo's, and less guns and lances. Literally the only thing it has over that ship is 1 extra shield, all it needs is a few more shots to be worth it.
>>
>>82992652
A change to one ship? Tell me about this. Is the ship a pet favorite of yours, or does one ship being bad have larger balance ramifications for BFG?
>>
>>82984455
Metholated spirits can work depending on the type of super glue.
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>>82992838
BFG is just that perfect.

Anon is right though, some GC profiles could help out their tendency to sit mothballed in storage.
>>
Redpill me on BFG. I have a friend that is hellbent on learning and playing it and I am skeptical.
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>>82993358
What's there to say? It's a ship game. Either you love ships or hate them.
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>>82957713
> insert soïjack
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>>82993499
>Either you love ships or hate them.
Not so, one can have a love for real physics ships and a distaste for artificial gravity cathedral boats.
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>>82993919
posted like someone who shouldn't play BFG
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>>82993967
My distaste for not-spaceships has no impact on my ability to play a tabletop game.
But collecting would certainly be lost on me.
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>>82993967
No one should play BFG.
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>>82994124
Are you autistic? Be honest.
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>>82994129
Are the rules shit or what
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>>82993919
>Not so, one can have a love for real physics ships
The ones that can't even get a crew to our nearest neighboring planet? What's to love?
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>>82994141
Your sense of humour is broken.
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>>82994152
Realism > wrong fiction
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>>82994152
I said real physics, not real ships.
Stuff that obeys our understanding of the laws of the universe, not our current economic limitations.
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>>82994154
You're claiming that your posts are jokes now?
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>>82994172
This one >>82994124 absolutely was.
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>>82994165
you know you're in a Games Workshop thread right?
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>>82994181
Blood Bowl has no conflict with my love for physics accurate spaceships =)
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>>82994179
That's the post that convinced me you're autistic.
>>
guys I think he's german
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>>82994193
Which is what convinced me that your sense of humour is broken.
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>>82994210
I get people accusing me of autism.
But why the hell do people keep accusing me of being german?!
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>>82993919
>a distaste for artificial gravity cathedral boats.
I'm afraid your case of bad taste is terminal. I'm so sorry anon.
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>>82994144
Nah, they're pretty good. Anon said he doesn't like giant cathedral boats on principle.
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>>82994605
Peak spaceship aesthetic is stuff like a perfect sphere or a blob of nanomaterial that can form weapons/thrusters/sensors as needed
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>>82994636
>perfect sphere
Cylinder is better. Means you have a thin side to face towards incoming and minimize hits.
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My BFG Oribtal Dock arrived in the mail today and it is odd. There's four lances pointed upwards from the disc you can see one in picture. I think this is the only Gothic model that acknowledges 3d space combat.
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>>82994651
I had one of these in mind
>https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/480a48b000f5b
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>>82994707
>utterly non-reflective black sphere of what may be exotic matter
Stopped reading. Unknown exotic materials are a no-go for my sci-fi settings.
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>>82966703
the exact opposite is true
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>>82994746
why would you respond to that
are you new?
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>>82994179
Jokes are typically clear and amusing to other anon, rather than just a thing you think is funny to write. I get you have a hard time with this due to being an autistic german complaining about space cathedrals in a thread about games workshop games, one of which specifically focuses on space cathedrals.
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>>82994732
That is on the stupidly high end and late history of that setting.
>https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/45eb1ea444972
this is more down to earth.
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>>82994824
If the ending is as silly as the thing you posted, I'm just going to save my time and skip all of it.
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>>82992838
I like the fluff of the ship, though it's not competitive in the game. Other Grand Cruiser and even battlecruiser patterns are much more woth it. Fluffwise it's supposed to be an older pattern, stradling between older heresy era designs and modern Imperial builds. It's super rare to see anyone use it, in fact I'm the only person I've ever seen use it and I have a pair of them lol.
>>
How does bow limit work in case of Riders of Rohan?
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>>82943047
Did we not used to have the Rogue Trader TTRPG books in the Mega? I've went and accidently deleted my set.
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>>82995184
They don't count for or against, so you could have 6 riders with bow (which don't affect the limit), 8 warriors with shield, 2 outriders and 2 warriors with bow, making you 33% bows + any riders.
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Haven't kept up with GW releases lately, was there a Warcry annual 2021?
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>>82996945
That's wrong actually, you don't count the riders at all. Your example has 50% bows and would be illegal.
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>>82997275
>You don't count riders at all
That's right, so my example had 8 warriors without bow, and 4 with bow?
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>>82997428
I'm retarded and can't count, sorry
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Have anyone tried BFG 2020 altenating activations with Eldar in around here?

I'm very tempted to bring the system in but I'm very confused as to how it would work with MSM or MMS.
>>
>>82984559
>Nail polish remover fixes superglue
It's acetone-based and while acetone turns superglue into jelly that's easy to pick off, it needs to soak for an hour or two at which point your plastic minis are heavily damaged to unusable.
>>
>>82968571
Before the nerf, Hakflem and Morg were tearing apart tournaments and still have a pronounced presence among stunty teams. Lord Borak was brought 8 times to the same tournament. Griff is now a staple for Dwarfs.

It's a big enough problem that the biggest Blood Bowl chat group had posts upon posts complaining about them in tournaments.
>>
>>82968192
>Good thing is we have the rules, community and 3rd party mini manufacturers so GW can go suck a fat one.
I honestly don't know why anyone is even bothering with GW newest rules release.
Our game is old enough and went unsupported long enough that the players should know better.
I'm still playing the CRP and refuse to buy or play this obvious money grab.
"but we'll miss out on black orcs and the khorne team!!" nah, the secret league exists and it's where GW is ripping off ideas from anyway.
>>
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Has any new Warbands been spoiled with the Blackpowder's Buccaneers and Illusory Might Deck? I checked a few review videos but found no artworks of new warbands which fucking sucks.
>>
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Shit sucks, it's just 'Hrothgorn 2.0: Now with less Fun'

>>82999119
Haven't seen anything, either. But the blurb for the Harrowdeep novel drops some hints.
>"But there are those whose fate has already been sealed. A band of Stormcast-errant on a mission to discover the whereabouts of missing fleets; two pirate captains, vying for power on the seas; and a pair of priests on the hunt for a potent weapon."
>>
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>MESBG normal humans, elves, orcs, hobbits, etc. are all base D3
>heroes get +1D, to D4
>dwarves start at base D4, heroes get +1D to D5
>dwarf armor = heavy armor, +2D
>heavy dwarf armor gives +3D

>moria balin, dwarf king, thrain, grim hammer captains, dain (iron hills and KUTM), thorin KUTM and the champions version of fili, kili, balin, dwalin, bifur, bofur, dori, and gloin are all D8 with heavy dwarf armor, following this schema
>shieldbearer, murin, and iron hills captains are D8 with dwarf armor (though IH cap oddly has regular heavy amor) and shield, makes sense
>mardin, dwarf captains, thorin (young and regular), captains of erebor, and drar are D7 with just dwarf armor, checks out
>durin's D9 with heavy mithril armor (presumably +4 compared to bilbo's mithril) makes perfect sense
>thror's D9 with heavy drawf armor and shield also totally checks

>fili, kili, balin, bifur, bofur, nori, and dori are all D5 with armor, meaning D4 base, with the unarmored members also D4 base
>dwalin is D6 with dwarf armor, meaning he too is D4 base (while gloin is D7 with dwarf armor meaning HE is D5 base)
>young balin is D5 with dwarf armor, meaning in his "prime" he was only D3
>while most of the champions of erebor jump to D5 base, bombur, ori, nori, and oin all stay base D4
>king's champion is D7 with heavy dwarf armor, and the heralds with dwarf armor+shield too, meaning they're D4 base
>floi is D6 with heavy dwarf armor, meaning he's D3 base
>>thorin II for some reason doesn't even have dwarven armor, just regular old heavy armor
>>iron hills dwarves as a whole also wear regular heavy non-dwarven armor

>every other race plainly has D3 base, D4 warriors, a few D5 base for the blood of numenor or most powerful elves
why are dwarves like this
>>
>>83000126
Vampire coast inc
Plague priests inc
>>
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Which team is better and in general more enjoyable: Imperial Nobility or Khorne? I am really split on which of these two I should focus on.
>>
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>>83000126
Comparing Gorlok to Hrothgorn is just sad. And the hunter's warband is also strictly better.
>>
Does anyone have a pdf of White Dwarf 275? I’m looking for the Masterclass guide to Haldir’s Elves.
>>
>>82998981
>honestly don't know why anyone is even bothering with GW newest rules release.

People like new things and their favourite game being supported rather than being on life support. The BB1 game brought BB back to life, there was 100 people in the BB world tournament before that. Not everyone is stupid and bitter over a fantasy football franchise. CRP is garbage and the majority of people have converted to the new ruleset

>Inb4 MUH NU RULESET IS BAD
>OLD IS GOOD

Fuck throw a rock, old blitz and CLAWPOMB and fuck MUH CRP NAF retards
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>>83003373
>People like new things and their favourite game being supported rather than being on life support.
Depends on which people we're talking about. If I'm a FLGS owner or GW shareholder, I prefer the games GW is actively supporting because the money's better. If I'm a player or TO, I prefer the dead GW games because the rules are better balanced and more polished, you have more choice and availability of minis, events are easier to run and get support for, and the community is better organized and has far fewer bad apples.
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First guy down to tabletop quality, now on to ‘totally not meant for aos’ shaman
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>>83004549
>sideways
Nice, I’m retarded, forgot why phones are shit
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>>83003373
>People like new things
People have been making and playing with new things, long before GW got involved. The new things that people made were so good that GW decided to pick them up, tweak them and then try to charge money for them.

>and their favourite game being supported rather than being on life support.
Support as in readily-available team boxes and attractively printed pitches and rules? 100%.
Support as in clarifying edge cases, making stats more readable, and tweaking rules in ways that have been playtested thoroughly by many people over a period of months, maybe a year? Awesome.
"Support" as in upending the Passing system, XP system and all teams simultaneously, then proceeding to release a constant stream of unplaytested shite shoved in beside new team rules taken off Fumbbl and given a couple of tweaks? Nah, don't want it.

>The BB1 game brought BB back to life
>CRP is garbage
what
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>>83003017
Khorne's got shit loads of frenzy which can be fun to watch your guys go buck wild on the board and then dealing with potential over extensions. I just really love the look of imperial nobility so I have a soft spot for them
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>>83001227
hobbit shit is fucked, as usual
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Got some additional reworked skill tables for Necromunda done.
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>>83008040
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>>83008047
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>>83008062
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>>83001227
Wouldn't any armor a dwarf wears be dwarven armor, and if it isn't the rules writers messed up?
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Just ordered 800 points of harad. Defense 4 sounds insane though, I'm going to get shot to pieces.

The models are great though.
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>>83006128
it's not just hobbit, quite a few of the regular lotr dwarf range is nonsensically statted too.

>>83008576
>Wouldn't any armor a dwarf wears be dwarven armor
not really, since armor/heavy armor and dwarf armor/heavy dwarf armor are all distinct items with different benefits (though heavy armor and dwarf armor are effectively the same)

I think what most likely happened is that they looked at the iron hills models and, compared to erebor and khazad-dum, they're obviously far more heavily armored, even moreso than the khazad guard/grim hammers in heavy dwarf amor. so just giving them regular dwarf armor might look silly (though I don't think anyone would care) but giving them heavy dwarf armor would be broken, particularly as they have shieldwall. why they gave thorin III heavy armor I don't get though, it's obviously heavy dwarf armor and I don't think D9 would be broken on him, especially if you compare his profile to other similarly priced dwarves

the real reason for all the silliness, though, is obvious; a lot of models should be hitting D8 or even D9 by the system set up and they want to avoid that, as it's getting so high that a lot of models will just bounce off. though the places they've chosen to do it are honestly moronic, none of the arbitrarily gimped ones would shift from useless or average or whatever just off a point or two defense. it'd be a nice thing to touch up, thorin III especially
>desu, I think if iron hills dropped to S3, lost shieldwall, and got heavy dwarf armor they'd be 10000x more interesting as a faction. maybe even throw in C5 base or something, but it'd not only give some use to the mattock guys, it'd turn them from very good at everything to more of a dedicated super tanky faction

>>83008592
absolutely based
what all you get?
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>>83005170
I have been flip flopping back and forth and cannot decide on which I prefer. I am a big lover of chaos, red is my favourite colour and Khorne has what it says on the tin: Kill everything. But they lack starting skills for safety and shockingly fragile.

In contrast I like the humorous imperial nobility fluff of posh nobles buying teams to become BB stars, to themselves at least and the far less cruel and sadistic slant than the bretonnians. Gameplay wise they are also squishy but they have a unique, aggressive defense style to them and start with 6 safety skills with block and wrestle.

They are also mega squishy however and super expensive. What do?
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>>83004979
>The BB1 game brought BB back to life
>CRP is garbage
>what

Lots of NAF fanatics insist it was what kept BB going for years and act as martyrs as though they are saviours or something when in truth BB1 is what blew the doors open for BB to have the closest thing to mass appeal.

The CRP comment was said out of frustration but I do not miss broken wood elves, awful winnings and ridiculous kick off results.
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>>83009486
>BB1 is what blew the doors open for BB to have the closest thing to mass appeal.
I agree, but would point out that the Blood Bowl vidya used the CRP ruleset.
I would also point out that Cyanide initially asked GW for permission to develop the game, then when they were rejected they made Chaos League, then they got fucking sued and had their title transferred to GW before being told to make Blood Bowl essentially in bondage.
This is how GW "supports" Blood Bowl; they wait until the community puts a lot of effort in, then they find a way to monetise someone else's passion and put their own spin on it. They don't have the skill in game curation to manage Blood Bowl in a reasonable fashion; it's "let it die " or "fuck my shit up" with no middle ground.
>Wood Elves, winnings etc
I agree with you. Imagine if GW had taken the time to tweak those things in a reasonable manner before completely overhauling multiple major systems simultaneously?
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>>83010469
>I agree, but would point out that the Blood Bowl vidya used the CRP ruleset.
AKHTUALLY it used LRB5. BB1 Chaos Edition used the CRP which came out a year later. You got the history of Cyanide sorted out with GW but

>They don't have the skill in game curation to manage Blood Bowl in a reasonable fashion; it's "let it die " or "fuck my shit up" with no middle ground.

I never understood this sensationalist view that everything GW does is wrong and if they so much breathe it is wrong. They're a company and while obviously their rules writing sucks and proof reading has hit the toilet, the ruleset itself is very solid in BB2020 and them supporting BB is a good thing. Be thankful it's not the same team who are balancing 40k.

>Imagine if GW had taken the time to tweak those things in a reasonable manner before completely overhauling multiple major systems simultaneously?

But they did? That's what 2020 did and while there are still around....5% of coaches who still adamantly stick to the old rules, the majority are fairly happy with the new changes.
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>>82983534
Yeah thats fucking atrocious. You can pick up those packs of coffee stirrers for less than 5 bucks or go to coffee shops and get them for free then you're paying for PVA glue
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>>83010511
>LRB5
Well nerded, friend.

>But they did? That's what 2020 did
They didn't mate. The changes to the Passing system are far-reaching and impactful while the new SPP system is based in a completely different design philosophy to the old. Either one of those alone could have been a new edition with a couple of years taken to see how they pan out.
I'm not being hyperbolic here; I was really happy with BB2016, being a release of very well-tested rules with some welcome tweaks. It's not like anything GW touches immediately turns to dust. The problem is that they do not resource their rules writers and playtesters like they should; read up on any of the interviews from people who have since left the Specialist Games unit. This means that when they make big changes, those changes have unintended results.

>and while there are still around....5% of coaches who still adamantly stick to the old rules, the majority are fairly happy with the new changes.
Remember what you just said about vidya? I'd suggest that the vast majority of players are actually playing Blood Bowl 2, happily engaging with the old ruleset. I'd also point out that, as you say, people just like shiny new things. This means that they're liable to overlook totally preventable issues that we'll be talking about in five or ten years' time. "Remember when GW decided that player statups just weren't going to be a thing any more?"
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>>83010511
>Discussion about whether GW supporting Blood Bowl is a good thing
>Uses "GW supporting BB is a good thing" as an argument halfway through
Of course you're going to think you're right if you first assume you're right and then start thinking. Don't do that.
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>>83008592
You beter post that haul, son.
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>>83010811
I don't see how GW not supporting BB is in any way a good thing, hence my statement that it is. It's not like they raped the IP or trashed the rules. Were there changes? Yes. Did everyone like them? No. But GW putting money into it has definitely been more of a positive than a negative.

>>83010692
>They didn't mate. The changes to the Passing system are far-reaching and impactful while the new SPP system is based in a completely different design philosophy to the old. Either one of those alone could have been a new edition with a couple of years taken to see how they pan out.

I think that is really over emphasising the nature of the changes in regards to the SPP system and the passing system. The SPP is changed somewhat but it is functionally identical with the notable exception of stat ups as well as removing the random nature of doubles. While obviously this has taken some of the excitement from levelling, I think that assuring getting a double is far better than praying to god that your team is just plain lucky.

>The problem is that they do not resource their rules writers and playtesters like they should; read up on any of the interviews from people who have since left the Specialist Games unit. This means that when they make big changes, those changes have unintended results.

We are on the same page here and I want to emphasise I am not saying that "ANYTHING GW TOUCHES IS A GOOD THING". Fuck no. I am saying however that BB getting support by the official body is good however, not what GW is doing with it in its entirity is good.

>This means that they're liable to overlook totally preventable issues that we'll be talking about in five or ten years' time

See the answer before last but I know what you're indicating in that they implemented a system which may have had great negative consequences in the long run without adequate testing. But I think that's a bit much in the context of BB. Even with the passing changes, WE are crawling back.
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>>82946522
Bilbo, orcs like Golfimbul are some examples
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>>83011227
>I don't see how GW not supporting BB is in any way a good thing, hence my statement that it is.
I genuinely don't know what to tell you. Whether it's a good thing that specialist games are supported or not is one of the most consistently debated things in this thread. If the message "you cannot have a debate if you start by assuming your stance on the thing up for debate is objective fact" is somehow too difficult for you to grasp, unironically please stop posting.
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>>83011227
>The SPP is changed somewhat but it is functionally identical with the notable exception of stat ups as well as removing the random nature of doubles. While obviously this has taken some of the excitement from levelling, I think that assuring getting a double is far better than praying to god that your team is just plain lucky.
I can see how you might consider the systems "functionally identical", but they each reflect a completely different design ethos.
Old Blood Bowl allowed you to plan your players' development in terms of primary skills, needing a set amount of SPP per level up. Every so often though a player would level up and roll a double or a high number. You, as a coach, recognise that this guy's special and can develop better or differently to the average player or how you'd initially expected. Any given team after a certain point will have the opportunity to take a smattering of statups or unusual skills, and how you deal with these unexpected windfalls is up to you.
In BB2020 you don't discover a player with the potential for a special skill; you decide who's allowed to be special or not ahead of time, and you delay their inprovement until they have saved enough SPP to buy that secondary. Bizarrely, there's almost no hope at all of getting a statup; who's going to have a novice player score six touchdowns without improvement for the chance to roll a +AV or MV? The days of Bob the Lineman getting a +ST and becoming a hero are over.
The worst bit for me is that the skills and stats contradict one another. As you say, you can now guarantee a secondary, but with statups you really are "praying to god that your team is just plain lucky" with the added "fun" that you've had to make serious sacrifices just to make the roll in the first place. The design's not coherent, it's slapped together. Imagine if the team had taken the time to polish it rather than overhauling the Passing system etc at the same time? Acted with patience?
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>>83000126
>>83003090
Is it really THIS bad? I love Mollog-like bands with one big dude and a few little shitters around and wanted to get into Underworlds with a band from a recent season to not fuck with secondary market and have all the shit up to date.
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>>83011439
I understood your view and what you said but I am still of that aftermentioned view on support, not that I don't understand. We can just agree to disagree on that point then.

>>83012109
I see, so it is more to do with the hastiness of integrating a new system with a different design philosophy, than taking the time to integrate a system which could mix or satisfy both types. I guess they could have sure. That said I think that both systems focus on planning just the random stat up or double added a surprise element which is now impossible. That is, admittedly, frustrating but I don't miss running into an AG5 wardancer or str5 bull centaur by game 2-4 with my teams. Ultimately though despite some differing views, i think we are mostly on the same page, just one prefers apples over oranges but both are fruit.
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>>83008879
>>83011099
Golden king
Nazgul on fellbeast that I'll convert to betrayer
2 hasharins
36 harad warriors
9 abakaran guard

They look fun.
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>>83012591
Just don't
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>>83008069
Wise words.
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>>83012846
>Ultimately though despite some differing views, i think we are mostly on the same page, just one prefers apples over oranges but both are fruit.
I think the main point that we disagree on is GW's competence to actually deliver effective support. Apples to oranges would be preferring a more random levelup system to a levelup system where you get to plan out your builds. What we've got is a random levelup system and a schizophrenic one where major features are present but near-unusable. I like apples, but I'll still eat an orange; my problem is that this particular orange is going a bit soft and smells weird.

>I don't miss running into an AG5 wardancer or str5 bull centaur by game 2-4 with my teams.
Imagine if they'd worked cautiously and introduced the Leap nerf first, or had adjusted statup TV so that you'd get more inducements against that team with a St5 bull centaur? If the likes of you and I can spot flaws and solutions in the system, is it wrong to expect the professionals to when they design a product to sell to us?
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>>83012591
To me it doesn't look so bad. I mean, yes, he's worse than Mollog, and yes, the ogre is slightly weaker than Hotgon. But in general the whole team looks slightly more defensive, with high dodge across the board, and the light-fingered reactions looks like a nightmare to play against in late game.
More than everything it looks like a "middle of the pack" warband: worse than older troll/ogre warbands, but much better than the latest orcs and stormcasts.
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ebin scale infantry confirmed!
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>>83013359
>If the likes of you and I can spot flaws and solutions in the system, is it wrong to expect the professionals to when they design a product to sell to us?

Maybe I didn't state clear enough before but I am aware entirely that GW's design quality in rules is at best, being very generous, mediocre and just bad or lazy at worst. Look no further than pic related where there was a lazy copy and paste work, on top of the fact for some reason they nerfed his Agi.

I suppose why I find GW's support for BB a good thing, despite the poor management of rules, is that it even puts it in the limelight in the first place. Look at poor Aeronautica or Mordheim. Nothing stopping us from playing them but sort of sucks to play a system you know is dead in the water vs another which you know is getting releases, support and a stable playerbase which a large part os contributed by it bring supported to begin with. Even if said support is meh at best.
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>>82944761
made a minor change by moving the cockpit a bit to the rear. it just bothers me how the falcon part looks like it's a separate part instead of being one with the whole.
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>>82983534
oh look that was easy
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>Bolster your gangs with FOUR extremely expendable Hive Scum or get revenge on the major Houses of the Hive by forming an entire Outcast Gang.
So, are they releasing a 4 guy booster pack PLUS re-releasing the 12 guys box OR IS GW GONNA JEW ME AS A FEARED WITH A SHITTY $20 FOR 4 GUYS KIND OF DEAL?
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>>83013580
>sort of sucks to play a system you know is dead in the water vs another which you know is getting releases, support and a stable playerbase
Well, if I were playing Aeronautica or a game which favours pickup games then maybe I'd agree with you. It's nice to feel that you can just post the local club and simply organise a game for next week if you fancy.
Games like Blood Bowl and Mordheim aren't best played like that though. They shine in long campaigns which need an arbitrator, normally someone who knows most of the players personally and has a real passion for the game. People join such a group for lots of reasons, from social to gameplay, and it can be quite a boon to be able to just give them the free Mordheim PDF and a link to Frostgrave boxes. New releases during such a campaign can actually be disruptive, and rulesets with a steady release cycle and insufficient quality control just heap work on the referee and are a nightmare for newer players to navigate (look at the Nucromunda Yaktribe collated PDF).
Not to mention that if the people playing with you are there because the game is new and shiny, and not for the quality of the rules themselves, they ain't gonna be there in a few months' time.
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I started working on a new board. This time 2x2 with fixed layout. Question is, at this stage do you think that I overdid it with the size of the wall?
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>>83014831
Based Sprue Basher. It's OP for Orks, basically a free terrain that looks good.
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>>82974196
When did they preview this? I guess this is why the Easterling Command is no longer for sale on the GW site.
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>>83017781
about a month ago, with the model showcase for the new defence of the north orcs

also didn't realize easterling command went down, RIP both to the nice models and to the hope of more named characters. really, really glad we're getting new sculpts for shit-tier profiles that already had solid models.
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>>83017976
They're great sculpts but I have them in Finecast and they didn't come out too great. I don't think the banner bearer was ever in metal.
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lotr loreanons, does anyone know what a banner for thranduil would properly look like?

I have a spare banner from rivendell knights I was going to convert onto a palace guard, and also one from lothlorien knights if that works better, but I'm not sure what a lore-proper banner design would look like.
does he have a special sigil?
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>>83016287
Very pretty and doesn't seem too big to me. Good job anon, keep us posted.
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>>83017781
>>83017976
Either he is trolling or just too stupid to read, it's still available on the GW store (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Easterling-Commanders)
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>>83019049
He has a broach at his neck that looks like growing branches around a gem. I would copy that.
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>>83019756
he's not trolling or stupid, for whatever off reason it's available in the UK as normal but it's completely off the site in the US and 404's if you're on the commanders page and change location to the US


wonder why
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when are Black Guard of Barad Dur useful?
And Mordor Uruk-hai are plain trash, right?



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