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Recently discovered Wick's Play Dirty and I gotta say, that's some Warren Ellis-tier passive agressive garbage. What's some of the best/worst GM advice you ever got or gave out?
>>
Best advice for general prep and adventure design I've ever read was from the Alexandrian blog.
>https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4147/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots
"Don't prep plots. Prep situations."
>>
Few people deserve second chance, but you should give it not to miss on those few who do.
Nobody deserves third.
>>
>>82312994
My best advice is learn to bullshit. Learn to bullshit and make it seem like it was the plan the whole time. Your players wont' be able to tell, and they'll think you're some 4d chess playing genius, but they'll also have more fun because they threw your a curveball and you knocked it out of the park.
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>>82312994
John Wick is based and has people lining up to play at his table. You'll never hold a candle to him.
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>>82313028
Alexandrian's prep suggestions are pretty based. My favorite part is how he keeps things concise without rambling on forever.

>>82313034
I think that goes for everything, to be honest.

>>82313063
Based. Not sure aboutt he "genius" part, but people will have a lot of fun with it anyway.

>>82313716
Low effort bait. Try harder
>>
>>82313859
Exaggeration for effect, the point is they won't realize you did it and will pay the fuck attention because you just pulled something out of your ass and made it seem planned.
>>
>>82313028
that's extremely good advice though
>>
>>82313028
>>82314216
damn it well i'm only 2 beers in and i can't even properly read the OP it seems
>>
>>82312994
Haven't read much Warren Ellis. What's he guilty of?
>>
>>82314347
He's really ugly
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>>82314216
The thread title is best/worst advice which I interpret to mean examples of the best and the worst, not the best OF the
worst. So post some good advice if you have it.

>>82314227
You sound like some agreeable fag I could convince to suck my dick even though you aren't a shred homosexual. Tape your body to a brromhandle until your spine grows in
>>
>>82312994
>best/worst GM advice
Rape is just a tool for your character, just like it is for you as a player, DM giving you some lip, then spread theirs.
>>
>>82312994
>Worst
"If you want to run a warrior-only game in D&D 3.5, remember to not give out healing potions because they're magic too," courtesy of Complete Warrior.
>>
>>82312994
Good advice:
>World building
-General design of landmass and major cities (main inhabitants, customs, etc) everything else is vague but filled in as explored with gradual transitions from major city to another.
>Combat
-Learn mob rules and use them. Thematically fighting 50 goblins is great. Making it take hours to accomplish is boring and tedious for everyone involved.
-Humanoids should have enough sense to recognize they are losing and retreat.
>Exploration
-If the players think to check something you didn't account for, random low tier treasure tables are your friend.
-Traps should either be frequent and low damage so the party is wary of exploring OR infrequent but lethal so the party is wary of exploring.
>General Rule
-Let your players try anything they wish, no matter how absurd it is, and don't be afraid to let natural reactions occur as a result.

Bad advice:
>World building
-Be very detailed
>Combat
-Allow rests after every encounter
>Exploration
-Use riddles
>General rule
-Crit fail and success means something incredible happens.
>>
>>82313028
>Don't prep plots. Prep situations
Came to state something along that line.
I guess this leaves me with "Don't be a dick", which is especially poignant given Play Dirty is in the OP - a collection of edge combined with cluelessness, all done for the sake of it, rather than actual point or goal.
>>
>>82313063
I'm on the fence with this. There is a massive difference - at least for me - between "being good at improv", "having a fall-back(s) pre-planned" (akin to first post) and "fuck, I'm completely lost, let's now pretend it was always part of the plan"
But then again, pre-covid I've used to play a lot of Call of Cthulhu, where all three of those approaches significantly affect how the game even rolls out. And you don't want it to roll into bullshit territory.
>>
>>82312994
The worst part about Wick is the way he writes. It's fine to be shit, but when you're shit AND high off your farts, you become unbearable.
>>
This is a summary of an entire chapter of "How to GM" from The Witcher - Game of Imagination. The whole chapter is great, even if it throws dated cringe at you at times (like the Polish 90s obsession with candles at the table), but all in all, I wish more games actually explained you how to BE a GM, rather than how to resolve mechanical issues

1. It is much greater pleasure in this job from having happy players than from a short-lived satisfaction of being the lord of their fate
2. Players came to you to have fun, not to get their PCs slaughtered. It's their choice to die
>This makes sense in the context of subchapter on lethal scenarios
3. Crunch can be sometimes used
>This ties with an entire subchapter of "don't make people roll on everything, non-stop, you dummy"
4. It's best to run for 3 people, with a single game lasting 2-5 hours
5. Never be overbearing with your descriptions
6. Player can declare during play just about anything. You can't deny them that. Your job it solely to declare consequences
7. If you have a shy player in a group, pay/remember to give them extra attention
8. Not using crunch at a moment doesn't mean ignoring the char sheet. Quite the opposite - it's very important tool and especially for you
9. Skill on which player spend the most of his points is a signal for you to make them most proficient in that field
10. It's not important what words you will use, players will feel the emotional tone if you have one
>the only one I disagree with
11. Your NPCs must be varied idividuals.
12. You are not a judge of someone's acting skills, you are not to decide what character suits given player best. It is after all a fun game, not a commercial theatre. Award efforts.
13. Think about problem, in which the characters will get tangled, and not what they should do
14. Each fairy tale has it's tragic underlining.
15. Story teller always learns (something new).

I find 12 to be the most important one - too many people create hell by not getting this memo
>>
>>82314917
>Allow rests after every encounter
You realise this only makes sense if you are playing D&D and its clones and literally doesn't apply to any other game... right?

Also
>Having traps at all
That's one of the worst advices imaginable, because you put a game into a crawl. Everyone will be now touching everything with a yardstick.
Which is weird, because you are aware that mob rules and speed should be of an essence, but in the same time gleefully suggest having the biggest game-stopper of them all, traps. If it's non-lethal, it serves no real purpose other than stopping the game. If it's lethal, it slows the game and then is additionally annoying, because you just killed a player over nothing in particular, literally "rock falls, you die".
Traps are gay.
>>
>>82314917
Do not play with this man. He is a cuck.
>>
>>82313716
Not a huge surprise, there are always people out there with poor judgment. And masochists.
>>
There's a reason you can find the phrase "John Wick is an Asshole" written in kanji on an old Legend of the Five Rings card, a Bayushi Kachiko maybe?
>>
>>82312994
I really don't understand this whole industry around GM advice. Anyone who has GMed any game regularly for a year or so really should know everything they need to know about how to be an effective GM.
Every time I read any piece of "GM advice" it's always the most obvious shit that should come naturally to any experienced GM.
>>
>>82315171
I didn't expect actual advice, and i'm not surprised half of it is what /tg/ says you shouldn't do.
>>
>>82313716
>Neopets
>Houses of the bloodied
>Mason
Tell you the truth I stopped at Houses of the Bloodied.
>>
>>82315356
/tg/ is like a cesspool when it comes to running games, so there is that. You can find here people who both ironically and unironically consider Wick to be the best GM that ever walked on Earth, for fuck's sake
>>
>>82315171
>Player can declare during play just about anything. You can't deny them that. Your job it solely to declare consequences
this is probably the most important takeaway. once you get into the proper mindset for GMing, everything else falls into place and it becomes much more rewarding
>>
>>82312994
Best
>Skill based exploration encounters should be just as engaging as combat ones. Try to make meaningful environmental hazards and skill challenges part of the game.
Worst
>Every session should have a 30% chance of a TPK
No that last one wasn’t a OSR grog or CoC player, otherwise I might say they had a point.
>>
>>82315343
You would THINK this kinda shit should come naturally to experienced GMs, but I've seen some absolutely SHIT GMs that have "been GMing for years" and deprive me of agency to tell me their pipe-dream story. Or GMs that Magical Realm, etc etc
>>
>>82315195
Traps have their place. They encourage interaction with the environment without the DMs prompting, providing an opportunity for give them useful information about the location, history or local monsters. A trap can be a situation as well, rolling boulders, closing walls, deep pits filled with creatures or other threats, it lets them solve a non-combat encounter and puts pressure on resources. It could also be an alarm system for the monsters, a trigger for a timer or, if they discover it, a tool for the characters to make use of. If they want to go ultra cautious, that's fine, you can have it cost in game time while accelerating real time, i.e;
>You spend an hour checking each foot of the hall and make it to the door, what do you do?
>We check the door
>You spend ten minutes checking it and find nothing, your torchlight is getting low, what now?
Traps were around when there were dungeon turns as well and taking too long had other risks, checking for traps or not was a trade-off against in-game time.
>>
>>82314428
You sound like a motherless sack of shit
>>
Learn how to solve plot problems by either working backwards or forwards.
Forwards: what do my NPCs want to do, with what resources they have?
Backwards: I want the party to have a fun car chase, how can events lead to that?
>>
>>82313028
Alexandrian can write good advice when he copies what others have said.
>>
>>82312994
Running a game is all about balancing extremes, both within the game, and without.

Be honest with player, but keep a sense of mystery. Don't fudge rolls, but be willing to change difficulty on the fly if players have particularly good/bad approaches. Build challenges with the party's abilities in mind, avoid using pregenerated material unless your system has a very high floor and very low ceiling. Nothing ruins an encounter like a player realizing it is literally impossible to pass or fail. Except, of course, if that's the feeling they are looking for, like trying to fight a Great Old One in Call of Cthulhu, or a single mortal as a Solar in Exalted.

Keep overarching plots to the barest bones until the players start making progress towards them. Be willing to change the ideas you came up with when you fist sat down if you come up with better ones or if the tone of the game shifts. Keep a list, mental or physical, of character names and one-line backstories in case some the players start asking questions. Give agency, but uphold consequences. Unironically the gay rights revolution lich greetext is a great example.

Make sure everyone is on the same page, like it or not, being gm means being team dad. Manage ooc drama and keep it to a minimum, don't let things fester and address problem players as soon as they appear. A lot of shit can be avoided by nipping it in the bud. Make sure you and the players are on the same page in terms of tone and rules, don't pull a houserule halfway through a game without giving the players an opportunity to rebuild if it changes their character. Give players an idea of what the optimization threshold should be, be upfront about bans or restrictions. And don't punish out of game decisions in game, or vice-versa.

Give each major npc an agenda, what they would do if the players never showed up. Try to make every combat feel important, even in games where it is the norm. Avoid random charts.

Don't play with fat people.
>>
>>82315195
>REEEEEEE TRAPS
Nigga, make a check. It eats time in game but not IRL. The idea is to keep the players on edge so they never feel safe exploring an area with hostile enemies AND to make them choose between being safe and arriving too late to prevent something important from happening or be reckless and take some scrapes or a big hit before time runs out.

Your players should have a sense of urgency in their adventures and punishments should be doled out for them not being risky a bit as well as punishments for them being risky. The life of an adventurer is a SHIT life and adventures should reflect this.
>>
>>82315195
>D&D
That is the game 99% of rpg groups will have on the table. Suck it up, nogames.
>>
>>82312994
>>82313063
The key is to have a curated selection of useful tables. I was running recently and I didn't have any mechanics for this moose-human forest warden's magic windchimes, so I just used my personal spell tables to generate one and the players didn't notice. The moose-thing itself was generated using Maze Rats. Cuts down on like 80% of prep time and it's way more fun to run when you have good tables.

>>82315411
It is key DM advice. Straight up number 1. Any DM that rejects what the players are honestly trying to do just because they don't like it is a terrible to play with, and any GM who answers HONEST requests with a TONE-FITTING answer is a God-tier GM to play under.
I run sword-and-sorcery, kind of mythic style games, and I once had a player looking to just be Gilgamesh from FATE, with the gates that summon weapons or whatever (haven't seen it). Totally out of tone, so I just said no, which is fine. But it may have been better for me to say "Okay, where did your character hear this legend about these gates?" The simple desire to be a stupid anime boy could have been leveraged as the start of a quest if I'd just stepped back a bit and realigned.
Obviously it depends on good will though. If your players aren't willing to meet you halfway they're just assholes. The flipside to "The GM should help the players do what they're trying to do" is "The players should trust that when the GM says something happens, that IS what would have happened". If the GM is reasonable but the players whine whenever it doesn't go their way, it's not the GM's fault.

>Worst
Matt Mercer once said that you shouldn't do wilderness survival adventures because there aren't any NPC's or plots around, so there's not really a game. I can understand the sentiment, but he's also wrong as fuck and I keep hearing it parroted back to me by mouthbreathers
>>
>>82316135
fuck I said the same shit twice. tired.
>>82315604 traps are just fun. I don't know why people whine, everyone loves Indiana Jones
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>>82312994
>What's some of the best/worst GM advice you ever got or gave out?
I'm a huge supporter of the whole 'prep situations' approach. Taking this a step further, I've stopped trying to figure out how players are meant to solve specific problems. I just introduce situations and often I have no idea myself how things are supposed to play out. I mostly play Call of Cthulhu and there are few clear-cut answers when it comes to fighting supernatural horrors but I just feed off of player ideas. For example, I'm running Masks of Nyarlathotep currently and I have no fucking idea how players are meant to survive the Egypt chapter at all. There's so much insane and violent shit going on that will immediately kill Investigators. The thing is, figuring out how to solve the problem is literally the PCs job. My job is to just present the situation and engage with player ideas.

I think it's a big problem in games like D&D where certain situations have a very fixed solution. If players cannot see the solution, or if they don't roll the required DC15 check or whatever, then things just get messy and boring.

Another piece of GM advice that might be controversial: I think newbies should run premade adventures. Many intro scenarios are great and they showcase possible structures that can be re-used when a GM then creates their own stuff.
>>
>>82315868
>don't punish out of game decisions in game
Fuck that. If a player doesn't give enough notice that they won't attend, next time the important NPCs are going fishing without telling anybody. If you sit there not saying anything 95% of the time, the party will have no luck getting information out of anyone. If you keep going for the min-max character options, the encounters will scale up drastically with monster-exclusive dirty tricks.
>>
>>82316135
The only correct thing Mercer has ever said is that people shouldn't copy him, because every GM should have their own style suitable for their own table.
Of course it's the one piece of advice his fans always ignore.
>>
>>82316203
>I just introduce situations and often I have no idea myself how things are supposed to play out
This. It makes GMing that much fun, and it weeds out the players that need to be spoon-fed entertainment.

I have mixed feelings on premade adventures. I had no idea what an adventure was supposed to actually look like for the first few months of GMing since I didn't make use of any modules, so my first games were very messy, but I believe it also helped me develop my own style.
>>
>>82314917
>>Exploration
>-Use riddles
But that is absolute kinofilm advice?
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>>82315171
>1. It is much greater pleasure in this job from having happy players than from a short-lived satisfaction of being the lord of their fate

Just opening up with an absolute banger. Isn't this a Polack game? The autumn tales memes had me thinking Polack gm s love lording their mastery over the pleb characters.
>>
>>82315171
Polish kino advice
At first, I thought this is from "Oko Yrrhedesa" by Andrzej Sapkowski himself :D
>>
>>82316894
if the timer was for in-game time, this could have been more fun than bullshitting
>>
>>82316945
in-universe, I mean.
sorry I fuck up my sentences sometime
>>
>>82316894
>Last game of campaign
>start out by doing nothing, letting my pc's flounder aimlessly bored out of their mind
>then kill one of them at random

Either this never happened or he never played with those people again after this. Holy shit what a stupid asshole.
>>
>>82314917
>>World building
>-Be very detailed
This depends a lot on self-control. If you can be very detailed in your worldbuilding without IMMEDIATELY telling all the information to your players, it can be a helpful tool in shaping and resolving story beats. The problem is that too many people will fall into either
>And now you will all sit there for half an hour while I tell you about the particular flora and fauna of this region and the exact structure of the government
or
>You didn't perform the traditional greeting of this nation? Did you not read the brief (50 page) setting notes? Well, the guards kill you.
Make common information available, but not required. Be charitable in your interpretations of how your players describe their actions. You don't need to show it all off today, you have years to explore everything you've written. It's a lot like seasoning--you can have a very well-stocked spice rack, but you're still only going to use a little bit of any given spice in any given dish. Don't serve anyone a plate of pepper with a sad little steak somewhere underneath it.
>>
>>82313716
Go to bed John, you are drunk.
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>>82316926
My twelve year old cousin is unironically a better GM than this idiot. Also, what did captcha mean by JWGAY?
>>
>>82315843
Explain? is this not his work?
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>>82316135
>Matt Mercer once said that you shouldn't do wilderness survival adventures because there aren't any NPC's or plots around, so there's not really a game

Does he not think that players can interact with each other in character? Does he not think that plot hooks can arise from the players discovering things in the environment that tell a story?
>>
>>82315868
>gay rights revolution lich greetext is a great example.
do you have it at hand somewhere ?
>>
>>82317401
Not sure if this one is for ants, but the summary is...
>Party is hunting dark lichnomancer planning to raise an army of the dead
>Come to kingdom, find it has no gay marriage
>Full-blown civil war, replace the king, legalize gay marriage
>Get absolutely wrecked by massive army of the dead they ignored for marital rights.
>>
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>>82312994
>>
>>82316936
this is so funny to me. i cant imagine hearing jw telling me "great. you made a combat monster" and staying serious. this is a fucking superhero game you tard. are you familiar with the concept of superheroes?
>>82316916
and this is even funnier. like, it seems to work on some next level pettyness; are we supposed to find him smart when he counters the disease immunity power with "well i have a infinity+1 disease!!!"? why is he so angry about players picking such a shitty, meaningless perk? if he wanted to make it useless in a non retarded way, he could just... not include diseases and poisons at all. why does it seems that he just... hate players for making character in general?
>>82316926
is this the inception of "only villains can kill pcs" in that shitty narrative game of his? you are an unstoppable mary sue for most of the game until you run into HIS mary sue?
>>
>>82317546
What a cunt.
>>
>>82317546
Possibly the worst DM action ever taken that didn't involve violent shitting or molestation.
>>
I greatly enjoy this thread as im building my first campaign and don't want it to be shit
Now i just need to make a list of do's and don'ts
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>>82317889
You need experience more than anything else. Just run a game, keep it very simple, and learn to react to what your players say and do. I get the feeling that some people freak themselves out in the prepping stage when they're new to running games.
>>
>>82315171
>Your NPCs must be varied idividuals.
No they musn't
>>
>>82315044
Hey, as long as what you come up with makes sense and the players are having fun what's the harm? I've seen some really good shit come from me making shit up on the spot.
>>
>>82317924
yes, i'm also freaking out over the system (infinity RPG, i liked the universe and want to run it vanilla-ish before changing stuff) cause its very contextual, and the way it works is a bit esoteric to me.
The story will be fairly simple (double crossing and betrayal stuff) and at this point i'm just gonna see how they go along (if they do).
Currently writing a template of situations and encounters so i have stuff to throw at them in any case.
>>
Fill each scenario with world objects that foreshadow interaction, eg in a scifi game, a conveyor belt leading into a furnace waiting to be switched on, in a medieval setting, a church bell that could be swung from / dropped on enemies / rung as a warning etc. Push the players relentlessly into desperate situations so that they will be forced to examine their environment and make use of these.
Depending on how much gm experience you have, fill the world with factions and allegiances. If the players want to murder everyone, let them, but adjust their reputations and faction influences accordingly to show that their actions have consequences. Killing an important npc may gain them favour amongst one faction and hostility amongst others etc.
In fact the best advice might just be "always prepare a meaningful consequence for every player action"
>>
>>82315343
Odd, how a help/advice book is written and geared towards newbie GMs. If you pick it up and read it, and then think "Ii already know this", then that book wasn't for you in the first place. If you had just stopped and listened to yourself railing against the world before hitting 'post', you would have understood, you literally stated the answer in your last sentence. But, alas, you are too self important to even hope to see the world around you from any other perspective. Which is a trait of terrible GMs.
>>
>>82317546
is this satire? The pic looks like it's a screenshot from a book
>>
>>82316321
uh oh, dan missed this week, so i guess next week we all get shit to do, may as well all take the day off. bill won't talk, so now every npc has a case of "go the fuck away" and "leave me the fuck alone". guess we can call this session done. try again next week. oh wait, we are gonna have to skip that one too, cause the gm won't playing, again. ted want to be bad ass this time around. why is every monster full of special tricks and abilities that are signifigantly over leveled for the rest of us. ahh, the gm is being a punk ass bitch again. see you guys next week maybe.
>>
>>82318212
It's from Legend of The Five Rings 4e.
>>
>>82314710
Based. If your players are willingly all picking warrior classes in 3.x, they're probably into that shit. And anyway, it only takes a few days of rest to restore all your HP.
>>
>>82316901
has he never seen a photocopier, or a pencil before. i mean i know he is retarded, but really?
>>
>>82316926
>not once did i mention hit points, but neither did i use the games actual combat rules. surprised. i'll bet you thought we were playing a game with rules. hah, you fool. you are doubly disqualified from my game.

wick is the epitome of "dumb as the day is long", and petty to boot.
>>
Anything that uses the D20 shape in part of it's logo is instant cringe, appealing to nu-gaymers and D&D fans.

>>82315171
Good content there
>>
>>82316203
introducing a situation without a predefined solution is just the best.
You need a certain amount of improv capabilities, but only d&dlets get stuck when you can have literally anything happen after a players action.
>Went from trying to discover what was taking children from the village, to a fae castle made of meat, to fight man made of butter, losing a soul, having to earn it back through guile and a logical way, trading another willing soul.
what a ride that session was, and I came completely unprepared.
>>
>>82316936
funny how wicks advice is to cheat. not just to bend or stretch rules, but to outright disregard, break and ignore them. and then to do so in order to win and make a point. that isn't playing a game. that is abusing people. it is the opposite a what a gm does. and the worst part is he is too retarded to understand, let alone care.
>>
>>82316923
this retard is exactly why I don't play with lgs nerds.
>>
I find Seth Skorkowsky offers excellent GM and general RPG advice. Plus his scenario reviews are fantastic and offer excellent advice for running the scenario yourself. So if you GM Call of Cthulhu or Traveller he has a lot of great content.
>>
>>82318214
That's being willfully obtuse. Dan only messaged me an hour after the scheduled start time to say "oh whoops I went to have drinks". Ted doesn't want to RP as a badass, he wants to rape the game mechanics so he gets a monk's armor bonus and speed with no intention of being monk-like.
All of them will go on to make a thread about how there aren't enough GMs to accommodate immaculate players such as them. Bill is suddenly extremely chatty when whining.
>>
>>82317546
"what goes around comes around" isn't even true of real life, why would you insert it into your game unless it's one of the themes or it has an active karma system of some sort?
>>
>>82316940
This rule is there, and there as a No. 1, because the game came out when Autumn Tale was all in vogue. It was basically people from MAG Publishing House saying "Fuck you, Trzewiczek, for your retarded advice that are making this hobby a horrible experience for everyone involved".
In fact, grand majority of that whole chapter, not just the summary rules, is one big "Fuck you" to the style promoted with Autumn Tale bullshit.

>>82317939
The actual subchapter about it is more in tune "Make sure you actually gave names to characters and have some fallback list" and has a nice walkthrough on how to do little details that make them stand out and be memorable with close to no effort.
Which was also a counter to Autumn Tale, which insisted that NPCs should be overengineered to absurdity when they are plot-important and literal no-names if they aren't, for it was entire school of GMing based on Wick-tier extremes and edgelordism
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>>82312994
Best has probably been "BE A FAN OF THE PLAYER-CHARACTERS". I've tried to live by it, and not only have my players appreciated it immensely, but my games have been much better and more coherent as a result.

Obviously, this should not be taken as an unbending rule, but as a broad admonition. By being a fan of the PCs, you avoid being an antagonistic dick like John Wick. You learn about the PCs and what motivates them, what scares them, and thus how to better fit them to the story and vice-versa.
>>
>>82316008
>. It eats time in game but not IRL
It eats time in BOTH, which is the actual problem.
It slows the game for no real gain. You aren't keeping anyone on edge, you are playing up paranoia (small-letter one) that eventually deflates the whole game, because it takes no time to make it a habit for players to just go room to room and repeat the same moves and waste MONSTRUAL amount of time on fucking nothing.
>should have a sense of urgency
Traps literally kill that, because instead of urgency, you end up with a situation where they are taking their time.
And something chasing them? Then they will end up either trying to fight that (and since they were running away, probably perish) OR ignore the traps and get wasted by those.
Oh my, what a fun any variation of traps is! And how useful!

>The life of an adventurer is a SHIT life
[Citation needed]
No, but seriously, who are you quoting and what's the point, even? "Nu-uh, this adventure ends, because there was a spiked pit #42 and you died there, for you didn't make a check/described your action/wahtever else"
Fun! And creative! And how immersive!
But really - what a waste of fucking time for everyone.
The only people who ever advice to use traps either didn't get a memo the game in question isn't suitable for it (for you aren't really doing any sort of equipment management in ANY game) OR straigh-out never played anything with traps for longer time than a one shot in some dungeon crawler.

tl;dr traps are still gay
>>
>>82316035
>hat is the game 99% of rpg groups will have on the table
This isn't even true in States, but hey, you tried.
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>>82318918
>tl;dr traps are still gay
That's why I like them.
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>>82318939
Not THOSE traps
>>
best
>if a player is so insecure they need to occasionally cheat, just let them do it

worst
>try not playing d&d
>>
>>82317546
All the people angry at this are that rogue, the murderhobos who justify mindless killing like it's Skyrim because "IT"S WHAT MY CHARACTER WOULD DO!!!!11". Good on whoever wrote this.
>>
>>82319043
Why is "HYTNPDD" considered a bad advice? Is this some sort of cope?
>Dude, this game is shit, because X, which means it won't work out in your scenario no matter what
>I'm not hearing you! You are just spiteful
D&D has a wide range of issues that also happen to be D&D specific and usually pop their head up the second people try to use D&D for something else than it is designed for. Which is literally every scenario that leads to people saying "HYTNPDD", because really, that's the solution 9 out of 10 times to a "problem" at hand.
Alternatively, stop doing the action that cause the problem with the system itself, but that's kind of defeating the purpose when someone says something in tune of "How do I run X using D&D"
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>>82319076
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>>82319090
The fact you have to abbreviate the phrase is cringe by itself.

All roleplay games are d&d, because d&d laid the groundwork for everything else. just like strawberry ice cream, chocolate ice cream, and mocha chip are all different flavors, they're still ice cream.

>"but i'm playing pathfinder!"
No, you're playing d&d
>"but i'm playing CoC!"
No, you're playing d&d
>"but i'm playing my homebrew system!"
No, you're playing d&d

you're playing d&d whether you like it or not. the one coping is you by fooling yourself into thinking you're not.
>>
>>82319100
Yes that literally describes the people defending the rogue in that situation, all edge and no point.

Fuck players who play chaotic stupid murderhobos, kicking them isn't good enough, their character must suffer in their place.
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>>82319190
That character isn't suffering though, they just disappear.
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>>82319160
>>82319190
Sorry, a discount today due to Black Friday, just a single post
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>>82319076
It's lame that he doesn't get an explanation. It should be that a good portion of the city guard was in on whacking the guy and he should have fucking been told the only thing he could make out before a silencing bag was thrown over his head was the familiar helmet of the law..
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>>82319160
I am playing gurps though
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>>82319160
I don't think this is how you are supposed to do the whole baiting thing.
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>>82316936
>>82316926
>>82316923
sounds to me that what John Wick truly wants is not to be a GM, but to be the Dom in a BDSM relationship.
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>He’s in the rest room and he stumbles across an envelope somebody dropped. He opens the envelope and discovers its filled with thousand dollar bills. Get you get any more lucky? Of course, the money belongs to a crime syndicate or something even more diabolical, and they’re going to be looking for that money and who “found” it (of course, they believe the hero stole it). And all of this trouble because the character was Lucky.
What the fuck?
>>
>>82317939
What, everyone they meet is a gruff, big-talking tough guy? Even when their investigations take them to a theatre, a whorehouse, and the town hall?
He's saying sometimes the players meet a very political fellow, or a grieving widow, or a mischievous child, or you know, something different from the last.
I don't know if you're hearing "They gotta be black" or not. If you do, you need to start charging rent.
>>
>>82312994

Is this book satire, or actually serious? I don't keep up with RPG creators.

Because if it's serious, Jesus tapdancing christ this guy's a grade A+ Cuntfart.
>>
>>82317320
He's kind of THE guy newbies to the hobby listen to, and for them, that's good advice. Hell, I play with really experienced players, but they're wallflowers, so I know for a fact I would by pulling my hair out in a wilderness survival campaign.
And an environmental-clue based thing really depends on the gm to just keep talking at the players. Sounds boring as hell.
>>
>>82317320
The actual joke is that he thinks you genuinely can't have NPCs in a wilderness game, period. For you can't find other people, for some unspeakable reason.

>>82319555
>Keep up
It's 20+ years old.
And it's 100% honest to god genuine stuff, for Wick was in his "all edge, no point" phase. I mean he kinda still is, but just not so hard.
>>
>>82317320
I would agree that you shouldn't do wilderness survival in D&D, but not for his reason, but instead because D&D only has the most bare-bones rules for it, and tons of spells designed to trivialize it from level one.
>>
>>82318894
At least like your player's characters more than your NPCs. I've encountered that too often where the NPCs are obviously favored by the DM, even/especially in combat
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>>82319411
That sounds like a great it hook to me- if the player doesn't want to take the risk just leave the money where they found it.
>>
>>82315843
Link the original thx
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>>82319043
>if a player is so insecure they need to occasionally cheat, just let them do it
Fuck no
What horrible advice
>>
>>82319043
It's the reverse order, faglord
>>
>>82317289
They are just a brainlet.
"Don't prep plots" isn't something that you can attribute to any one person. It is an older idea that has floated around.
The Alexandrian explains it very well in a detail article that actually teaches you how to do it. It is probably the single best series of articles available on the topic.
The real value is communicating these things and giving you useful GM tools, something which the Alexandrian excels at.
Node based design analyses Masks of Nyarlathotep and teaches people how to use its design principles to build better adventures and campaigns. The three clue rule analyses the good mysteries and gives you a way to make your own good mysteries.

Sometimes the Alexandrian's game tastes get a little weird, but his advice on running the game is top tier.
>>
>>82318524
not really. unless in the example given, you meant the entire group did each of those things. then you have bigger problems, and acting like a passive-aggressive manchild isn't going to help resolve them. otherwise you are simply punishing everybody for one guys failure/rudeness. you make it sound like social activities are not really for you.
>>
>>82318894
>BE A FAN OF THE PLAYER-CHARACTERS
I find this very easy when I fuck the character with my NPCs
>>
>>82319004
Thanks for reminding me to watch more Astolfo and Master Chief.
>>
>>82319387
no, that requires trust, and wick is incapable of earning, let alone keeping it. he actually does not understand the concept.

what he wants, is to be the guy keeping a sex slave prisoner kidnap victim in the secret basement of his garage.
>>
>>82320193
if it's risky, then it ain't lucky.
do you now see the problem.
wick turns advantages into disadvantages, on purpose. because he is a petty fucking bitch, who gets outplayed by children.
>>
>>82320933
I still think that his infamous "This is how to run supers games" was a straight satire and a self-parody.
I refuse to believe that was sincere. It just couldn't be.
And I will be forever confused how the FUCK that guy made a big name in TTRPG out of himself and his petty, passive-aggressive shit
>>
>>82320966
>refuse to believe that was sincere. It just couldn't be.
Never underestimate people.
>>
>>82320896
>no, that requires trust
Do people really trust a hooker they pay to dom them? What's hot about trust anyway?
>>
>>82321073
>t. kissless faggot
>>
>>82320827
>you are simply punishing everybody for one guys failure/rudeness
Which makes the players force the one misbehaving into line, or ask to boot him. The problem solves itself.
>>
>>82321222
Nta, but why are you acting purposefully retarded? What's the end game of being taken for complete moron?
>>
>>82313716
>John Wick is based and has people lining up to play at his table.
People are free to have shit taste, and many do. His book is still full of passive aggressive bullshit also some actually useful advice, but you still have to sift through said shit to get to the good bits
>>
>>82321097
I'm genuinely asking. Two people I know are interested into doing BDSM stuff and it's tough to understand what's so appealing.
>>
>>82321438
>I don't understand a thing
>This means the thing is bad
Must be tough living a life while being mentally stunted at the age of 7
>>
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>Essentially, all players want their characters to be John McClane. You know, the guy Bruce Willis plays in the Die Hard films. They want to be knocked down, punched out, bloody, battered and beaten.

>But (and this is an important “but”, folks), every time they get knocked down, they want to be able to get back up.
>>
>>82321222
Except you're punishing them with passive aggressive bullshit that they're not going to connect to their "misbehaviour" without reading your mind.
>>
>>82321472
>This means the thing is bad
Quote me where I said that. Are you slow? What's hard to understand about "I'm genuinely asking"?
>>
>>82314917
>the virgin D&D-only GM vs. the chad master of all games
>>
3.x was a mistake.
>>
>>82313028
Normally I hate "RPG theory" blogs but The Alexandrian is top tier and this article is one of the best. Changed my games.

>wait Anon we can just do ____?
>hang on you mean you didn't prep that?
etc. when I did LESS work lol.

Anyone know what published adventure he's talking about though?
>>
>>82321222
no, it forces the players to face the fact that the gm is a passive aggressive puss weeping dickhole.
>>
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>>82321686
The part where you literally can't wrap your head around the sheer idea that different people can like and/or enjoy different things, expecting to be given instead reason why.
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>>82322239
So that's a "yes" then. "Giving up control while knowing you'll be safe in their hands is exhilarating" is a good answer some people give, but you can't even conjure up a single sentence.
>>
>>82322297
>Isn't answered
>Answers himself and dance about it
Seek help. Seriously, do so. Early diagnosis is the key.
>>
>>82322343
Are you actually insane? You still haven't explained how I implied it was bad.
>>
>>82315171
>Disagree with 10
>Most important is 12
I think (and I am reading your translation of a passage from a book I haven't read) that they're the inverse of each other.
"Don't sweat the words, people will get your vibe" is the counterpart of "Get the player's vibe, don't fuck them over on the execution."
>>
>>82320891
Two gay icons together at last.
>>
>>82316321
>>82318524
>>82321222
Original anon, here. I think you missed the part where I started off by saying you need to jump on any ooc problems immediately and not let them get into your game. You're not in an arms race with the players, like John Wick likes to pretend to be, they are at your table. If someone shows up late because they were drinking, or builds a radically optimized character, or never roleplays: just bring it up to them.
>Anon, you have to stop being late/missing sessions, or I'm going to have to find someone else.
>Anon, I told you the power level of this game, either play within it, or find someone else to play with
>Anon, you're not really talking to any of the npcs, or doing much character work, if you're not enjoying the game or your character let me know. Otherwise, try to take the initiative if you want a say in how the story develops
not
>Anon was late this session, therefor he will incur the traditional -1 per fifteen minute penalty on all rolls this session. Also I've sabotaged this session's plot so everyone can feel as upset as I do
>Anon, because you have a +20 to hit and everyone else has +15, the monsters must all have at least +25 to teach them-I mean you a lesson
>Anon, since you aren't initiating anything, this is going to be a dead session and we will all waste our time together, no, don't try to roll, after all you don't want anything to happen, right?

You're sacrificing the game for the benefit of petty revenge, all you will achieve is teaching players that you're a petty tyrant who is willing to ruin everyone's time for your own catharsis.
>>
>>82323196
They won't learn unless they experience their own bullshit. It's not revenge. It's a hell of a lot more effective than "HURR DURR PLEASE STOP BEING QUIET JUST BE ASSERTIVE"

>>82321534
Not everyone is as obtuse as you
>>
>>82323538
I've got a new example for "worst GM advice":
>instead of talking to people about problems like an adult, just be a petty cunt and punish everyone else for things they don't control and possibly aren't even aware of
>>
>>82323538
You chose the weakest example. If I have a boring player, I try to encourage them if they are new, otherwise I just ignore them or kick them. Your "solution" doesn't teach new players how to act, keeps losers in the group, and forces everyone else to put up with it all.

I can't believe a sane group wouldn't just kick you.
>>
>>82319160
>"but i'm playing pathfinder!"
>No, you're playing d&d
>"but i'm playing my homebrew system!"
>No, you're playing d&d
In these two case you are right even though over all you are a fucing retard. Pathfinder is just D&D anyway and there is a good 95% chance any homebrew system is some d20 monstrosity that is pretty much just D&D but even worse.
>>
>>82323891
To be fair most people have experience being a cunt and not everyone has or likes talking about problems like a woman.
>>
>>82324180
>men are bad at communicating
Kinda sexist but you do you hon
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>>82323891
>punish everyone else for things they don't control
That's exactly how it feels when GMs don't do anything drastic and let bad behavior persist. The shitty players keep ruining the game, the GM just pretends everything is fine during sessions. When the game inevitably dies because of it, the committed and engaged players get robbed of the experience they enjoyed.
Stop being so lenient with shitters.
>>
>>82324316
>the GM just pretends everything is fine during sessions
Sounds like a personal problem.
>>
>>82324278
>most people
>Men
You might want to check your pad you appear to freeflowing down there girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl.
>>
>>82324466
>disingenuous backpedaling
Well you're certainly proving your initial point, I'll give you that.
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>>82324352
It's only a problem if you follow anon's shitty advice and don't address the issues in-game :)
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>>82319411
I mean at least it's funny, compared to the pure passive agressive horseshit about "being immune to the cure" and "your character just disappears" that makes up the rest of the book.
>>
>>82315195
There should be traps in places it would make sense for there to be traps. The pharoah's tomb can have them, a house where someone lives probably shouldn't.
>>
>>82313028
I hate this dude's name but I see his links from time to time. Are his takes any decent?
>>
>>82325513
Read a few of his articles.
They're pretty good but do require a bit of prior knowledge, and require games to be run in a particular style. Very analytic approach to the hobby.

If you want the traditional DnD Adventure: Excellent.
If you're running a module or a sandbox game: You might get some tips out of it.
>>
>>82322297
>>82321438
why would you genuinely be asking, if you already have the answer. you just go about being a dick and then outing yourself as a shitposter posting bait, and purposely looking retarded.
>>
>>82323196
>>Anon, because you have a +20 to hit and everyone else has +15, the monsters must all have at least +25 to teach them-I mean you a lesson
I've never understood this reaction. A combat encounter is low hanging fruit, the real tests of character are plot driven.
>>
Worst Advice I had was to use insight checks.
Now no one cares to remember plot hooks and deception rolls usually end up being "so, we don't know either way so lets just go with indifference".

Roll Insight if you're not sure what a character means or if you're suspecting a deceptive NPC, not as panacea for bad roleplaying.
>>
>>82316945 >>82316988
Hate to out myself as nogames, but I'm curious what the difference is.
>>
>>82318236
Lots of serial killers keep trophies.
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>>82326157
I don't think there is a difference, both refer to the time taken in the game universe
maybe anon fucked up twice, or he has a different explanation
>>
>>82320148
This is why the Powered by the Apocalypse games which use the "Be A Fan" rule as one of the GM's principles also usually say "treat your NPCs as disposable". They aren't there to steal the spotlight, you should be ready and willing to just chuck them in the bin, or at least put them out of the story when needed, or if it would make the PCs do more interesting things.
>>
>>82318918
Traps should be used when it makes sense in in-game logic. Should the underground cultist temple have a crossbow rigged to a pressure plate in front of the altar? Probably not. Should the goblins have pit traps in front of the only large-sized door into their hideout? Absolutely, and they'd probably already be dead if they didn't. Internal logic makes for better engagement and pacing than any metagame bullshit.
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>>82312994
>dude just be an asshole at all times
wow great insight there, wick
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>>82312994
Isn't this the guy that thinks minmaxing is cheating
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>>82326157
>>82327133
ok, let me explain
>REAL game time
The time you are playing in real life, the meta-time. You may spend two minutes planning a turn, but it's only about five or six seconds, in...
>in-universe game time
The time your characters spend doing things. They may travel for months, but your GM will narrate it for only a minute, if not seconds.
>my point
Wick could have said "you spend 1 hour shilling around" or something, and when combat started, subtracting time every turn instead of having a real-time timer just to fuck everyone. That wasn't even his only mistake (like not foreshadowing that a player will die instantly, what a dick), but it could have been done better atleast
>>
>>82327423
He's the guy who views pretty much any action done by the players as an opportunity to express his dominance, control and superiority.
A character optimally designed for combat? His lack of social grace offends the local lord, he gets executed.
A character optimally designed for social interactions? His lack of combat expertise gets him killed instantly by a neck-snapping ronin.
A character that is well-balanced? He gets his ass handed to him by a more specialized NPC, as punishment for not specializing.
A poorly designed character that's ineffective? He dies for being a useless piece of shit.
Play along with the narrative? You fool, you fell into his trap and now your character is dead, you simple plebeian.
Try to think outside of the box? You idiot, how dare you think you can outsmart the DM, your character is now dead.

The winning move is not to play with someone like him. His only real goal is to exert control over the players by killing their characters.
>>
>>82328672
addendum: I made up these terms, I am an ESL
>>
>>82321438
Right, basically the dynamic is this for most BDSM relationships:
>The Dom drives the car, the Sub has their foot on the break pedal
Sure the dom is taking you places, but all power to stop the ride rests on the sub, it's a trust exercise, like doing a backwards fall but with more whips and chains, that intense rush of 'Oh fuck I'm going to fall' followed by someone you know cares about catching you.
On the dom side, there's the rush of basically making someone you care about happy while also getting off on having them serve submissively and exploring their fantasies.
On the sub side, I managed to dig this out: https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/123042352/
Since I vaguely remembered it existed, Pearl poster, midway down the thread, check their view on it.
>>
>>82322531
Nta, but the book (not the summary) has this weird, schizo approach, very typical to that era of Polish scene. Namely: that no matter how you word it and how you play it out, you will get the message across the table to either players or the GM. Which just ins't true, no matter what. And it's often brought up as a key complain about the whole chapter, ironically titled "Voice of Reason", for anyone with even an ounce of reason would know that it does matter how you word things to get the message across.
>>
>>82325375
>There should be traps in places it would make sense for there to be traps
So... nowhere?
No, wait. You might play a milsim simulator as an occupation force. Then traps make sense. As something that will either brutally maim you (retiring a character) or flat-out kill you. Either way, your character is out for good.

>>82327223
>Traps should be used when it makes sense in in-game logic
Thus, again - never.
>Internal logic makes for better engagement and pacing than any metagame bullshit.
Which is why you don't put traps at all.
What are you going to achieve with that pit trap? No, really, what's the point. Let's walk through the options. So there is a pit trap
>players don't do anything to detect it, they walk into it, someone dies on a spot
Boring
>players don't do anything to detect it, they walk into it, someone takes X damage
Super boring
>players make a roll to detect traps, each room, every room
Boring, plus what a fucking waste of time
>players don't make a roll, but are passively informed from skill alone there is a trap
TURBO boring
>players must declare the action and how they search for the trap, for GM is OSR autismo that didn't get a memo, thus turning the single trap into one hour fiddling with everything in the "room" to make sure there is none, then walking into a trap anyway
Not only boring, but wasted third of the session on a single spike pit
>it's some nu-RPG, so it uses fail forward logic, thus walking into a trap not only does nothing, but advances the plot, for it "required" someone to be spiked
Oh wow, what a fun that was! The thrill!
You're free to give me examples that won't play out as above, but I sincerely doubt you actually can. Or that it's even possible in the first place.

Traps are forever gay

And I think the actual issue is the false premise on which traps are still shoveled into games. Namely: that if old games had traps, then it means traps are some sort of RPG staple, rather than realising they never "worked" at all
>>
>>82328928
Why come on a to Hmong play-pretend forum to talk about games that you've obviously never played?
>>
>>82325759
At the core of it, powergamers make the GM (and possibly other players) do more math homework being good at the game than they want to.
Imagine having a casual basketball meet every week and one day your friend Dave has had his legs extended and got cybernetic eyes that let him swish every shot. Now either everyone else has to get surgery, or just let Dave dunk on them constantly like they're toddlers.
>>
>>82316901
Was giving the sheets to the GM ever a thing? I've seen it on TV shows, but never in real play. I wouldn't let anyone touch my sheets with their greasy fingers, let alone take them from me for good. Except if this is a con and we're playing with pregens.
>>
>>82315171
>7. If you have a shy player in a group, pay/remember to give them extra attention
Yes, always bully the shy spergs.
>>
>>82328928
On one hand, this take is too real, so I got to respect that.
On the other hand
>nu-RPG, so it uses fail forward logic, thus walking into a trap not only does nothing, but advances the plot
Gary Gygax used that, as did many older designer. Oh look, the secret door was inside the pit trap all along (since somebody should be able to come in to clean up the bottom), falling in helped you find it.
>>
>>82329126
There is a degree of difference between Dave reading the game we supposedly agreed to play and Dave spending millions on pro-player cybernetics.
>>
>>82318801
>This rule is there, and there as a No. 1, because the game came out when Autumn Tale was all in vogue.
I was surprised too because it seems to pull strongly in the direction contrary to the AT, it makes a lot more sense in that context. I genuinely thought AT came a god few years later though, but I might be remembering some early edition. Was that game originally printed in some magazine before the rulebook was actually published?
>>
>>82321073
>Do people really trust a hooker they pay to dom them?
No, professional doms are a very different category than some random hooker, and trust is precisely the reason.
>What's hot about trust anyway?
The ability to relax by turning off your personal defences for a while in someone's presence.
>>
>>82319411
It makes sense in a comedy game about a lucky character oblivious to all the carnage happening around them.
Too bad a shitty 80s comedy trope is still more advanced than anything Wick is capable of understanding.
>>
>>82317320
>Does he not think that plot hooks can arise from the players discovering things in the environment that tell a story?
Have you seen his games? Have you talked to 5e players?
>>
>>82325728
>the answer
>THE answer
Is it?
>>
>>82319090
>Why is "HYTNPDD" considered a bad advice?
Because it is not advice, it is a bottom barbecue bitch retort that has no actual meaning other than a 'take that'.
Real advice would be asking what you are looking for, and recommending a game based on the questions asked, but that isn't edgy enough for most retards.
>>
>>82329772
Why can't these idiots just start with criteria they're looking for or address specific things they don't like, instead of making broad statements that warrant the acronym answer?
>>
>>82329347
Certainly in scale, but not in kind. It's forcing the others to get more serious than they want to be, or face a drubbing. This can be a dick move in some social circles.
>>82329772
If your OP can be answered with HYTNPD&D you deserve some contempt.
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>>82329772
>to solve your problem, you should stop playing a system that is causing it in the first place
>no actual meaning other than a 'take that'.
Are you brain-damaged, or just trying too hard?
Also
>Real advice would be asking what you are looking for
Which in 9 out of 10 cases happens anyway, so here we are, with you going full retard
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>>82329337
That's not fail forward, thou. Fail forward is "you can never punish players with anything, ever, and no matter what happens, plot advances".
So in this particular case, that means "oh, you get speared by the trap, but hey, yyy... once the goblins captured you, you now have to yyy... I know! We're playing Prison Break now!"
Which by itself isn't all bad, but the way how the most recent games with this design logic handle it is just pure retardation, since their issue is punishment aversion, rather than alternative routes to success
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>>82329085
>Here is my absolute lack of any arguments
Name me at least three games that handle traps differently than how I've listed it. Come on, prove to use that I'm a filthy no-game, and you play all the time.

>>82329525
AT came out in 1999 and exploded within about next 6 months.
Witcher is 2001, and by then, the AT-induced craze was already reaching the point of absurdity. And nope, Witcher just came out in full package, first with a "primer" pocket edition, then, month later, a full premiere of a full game and on-going support with expansions and follow-ups for next year or so.
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>>82330077
I'm not saying your descriptions are wrong, it's your conclusions that are wrong, you fucking idiot. You're basically saying "these ways of interacting with the game are objectively boring. Exploration is boring." That's fucking stupid. YOU don't like that, but to say shit like "describing how you're exploring the room is boring autism," is pretty fucking dumb when their are game whose entire point is exploration.
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>>82330031
>you can never punish players with anything, ever

No it isnt. Why even pretend you're having a conversation if you're going to be so fucking disingenuous?
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>>82330108
>Exploration is boring.
Never claimed that, so nice reading comprehension you've got there
>YOU don't like that, but to say shit like "describing how you're exploring the room is boring autism," is pretty fucking dumb when their are game whose entire point is exploration.
I fail to see how "explorations" and "trap detection" are even remotely related, but hey, apparently I called out OSR for being pants-on-heads retarded and that's the real issue here.
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>>82330031
You know very well you are lying to others and yourself anon. Please do not do that.
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>>82328928
>What are you going to achieve with that pit trap?
Immersion. The players are going into a kobold den, a goblin warren, or orc camp. They expect these things to defend their home, and one of the easiest and most basic defenses is a pit with a net and some leaves over it.
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>>82330031
Very wrong definition
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>>82328928
Traps are usually (from a gameplay standpoint) a means of slowing advance or trading speed for cumulative damage. Same principle as other hazardous terrain. From a simulation standpoint they represent the kinds of defences people have used throughout history, and genre conceits from many kinds of adventure fiction. Narratively, they can reflect the effects of overconfidence or incaution, or form part of a literal test of worth from an impartial judge (the penitent man shall pass) or give notice of a foes technological superiority and what they conceive of as dangerous or disgusting.
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>>82330134
>Immersion
Immersion into WHAT exactly?
>They expect these things to defend their home, and one of the easiest and most basic defenses is a pit with a net and some leaves over it.
No, YOU expect this style of defense, and you have this expectations, because games have been doing this since late 70s. And since it's such a staple, you fail to acknowledge the actual problem at hand - that traps put a game into a halt, without any actual gain.
The original concept was simple: traps exist there to shave off part of your HP and/or resources, so you can't explore the whole location, or you will die on your way in. However, the second you introduce just about ANY mechanical solution to it, you deflate the danger of a trap (it's just a skill check). And if you don't it, then the trap is in turn based on specific operation and specific wording - which in turn takes a LOT of time and zero guarantee you will achieve anything at all.
So the end result is an "obstacle" that isn't really an obstacle and serves no actual purpose. Because if you can defeat it with a single check, it does nothing. And if you need specific procedure to be described, you will teach your players to be paranoid fuckwits for no real reason and gain, so they will then proceed to poke every single room in every possible angle, because "oh no, lethal trap" (for you aren't playing a game where characters dying left and right is an accepted norm).

Bottom line is simple: traps aren't immersive, since there is nothing to be immersed into. And the more complex they are, the less they can even claim to achieve, since what's all that complexity of design, when the end result is either people just walking over it (thus nothing happened) or TPK happening, from which the rest of your dungeon and/or scenario won't play out.
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>>82330134
>one of the easiest and most basic defenses is a pit
No one puts booby traps on their front door. Or back door for that matter.
An alarm system makes sense. Traps are absurd.
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>>82330200
And in practice they mean stopping the game to make 2 separate rolls and then move forward as if nothing happened. OR stopping the game to now ponder how, where and why the room is trapped. OR in case of games with disposable PCs, just walking forward, activate the trap, die, and continue with your new character.
The whole "slow the advance" isn't achieved at all, for traps are static and passive, not to mention numerous games can't hande them beyond two skill checks. They don't work as burning resources since... early 80s? When did Tunnels & Trolls came out? It was the first game to acknowledge that traps just don't work as a resource burner
>they represent the kinds of defences people have used throughout history
Which are none. Traps are literally invention of pulp fiction and adventure serials

Which brings I guess another aspect of it:
People failing to grasp what roll traps play in those. They serve two purposes when used in your pulp story: either nameless goons die, to show how dangerous the place is OR the main characters are in a TIMED peril and must figure out how to solve the trap, having full spatial control and understanding of the place they are in and how the situation is playing out.
Let's use an example that everyone can handle: Jones.
In Raiders, traps presented are very simple: they kill the goon who betrayed him AND a timed escape route, with a simple "you fail, you die", but main character can't really die - they at best can be in danger
In Temple, there is a case of a timed trap, that will EVENTUALLY kill, but can and has to be disabled prior to that happening

... now try to translate that into a party going through a dungeon and you realise you can't. It will no longer work. You won't impose a time limit (at least not one that would fit), the players in control of their characters are imagining each the scene differently (and they don't even SEE it in the first place) and the more descriptions are provided, the slower the pace
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>>82330127
How do you explore, if actively describing your character exploring is "osr autism?"
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>>82330408
How do you use 4chan, if you can't read what's written?
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>>82330134
>Immersion
I'd felt 100 times more immersed and in danger if there were sentries with a horn to alarm the rest of the camp, than by a trap. At least in such scenario, if we fuck up, then all hell is let lose (but it doesn't mean instant TPK, either). Trap meanwhile does nothing at all, unless it's also rigged with an alarm.
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>>82330408
How do you call "I detect traps" exploration?
Alternatively, now do you call "I carefully poke the floor 10 feet in front of me with a pole" exploration?
What are you even trying to "explore" here?
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>>82312994
Just read the first few pages, and wow, this is some kind of major bullshit. Fucking with players for the sake of fucking with them, not because it would make a better story, or a more fun experience. This must be worst GM advice.
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>>82330609
That's John Wick in the 90s for you.
And before you ask - no, he didn't improve much since then. But he definitely stopped being such a massive edgelord he used to be.
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>>82316894
I have no idea who this man is and I never read anything he wrote before, but he is a complete and utter idiot and a terrible, awful GM and he has no understanding of other people and their motivations. If he were my GM doing that shit I would not only never play with him again but I'd warn everyone I meet not to do so either.
What a cunt.
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>>82330284
All of this is wrong and I can't begin to approach it.
To summarise:
You admit that traps slow the game and deny it in the same breath.
You assert various baseless statements and don't support them, because they are lies.
You assert that time limits and trap defusal puzzles cannot exist, despite describing them quite well and even anticipating some issues in how to present them.

Basically, your shit's all retarded and you need to go back to Club Penguin.
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>>82330925
>Translation: I have no arguments at all, but came here to have the final one-up
I'm afraid you need something better than that to not come off as desperate
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>>82330925
... are you ESL or something?
Like seriously, what's the cause of your inability to read what's written and instead jumping to conclusions that not only aren't even there, but would require to deliberately miss the point and arguments to come up with those.
Traps slow the game, period. The "as if nothing happen" means that the slow caused by the trap and disarming it was ultimately meaningless. Why I even need to explain something so obvious?
>You assert various baseless statements and don't support them, because they are lies.
Such as...?
>You assert that time limits and trap defusal puzzles cannot exist
Because they can't. You can't expect in a game based on describing actions for people to figure out a solution of something they can't even see in 30 seconds needed to stop the mechanism of the trap. It's that simple. Insisting it's possible paints you at best as someone who played a lot of video games and fails to grasp the difference of medium, because hey, this game allowed me to disarm trap quickly, right?
Let me link you to a specific trap that's impossible to do with people in anything even resembling real time, yet seems like something sooo obvious
https://youtu.be/ElU1uVDdvgI?t=109
If you don't get it, there is a spiked roof coming down. Easy to solve, right?
Try playing it out at the table. Try to do it at time limit, too.
>anticipating some issues in how to present them.
Those issues is what breaks those traps and completely deflate any stakes, for you can't use time limit
>Basically, your shit's all retarded
Said a guy who's entire counterpoint is "No, you're wrong, because I say so" and who either acts obtuse on purpose, or genuinely can't read
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>>82316906
Fuck, I once ran a villain called Undertone in an M&M game who acted as the mastermind for all the villains, always connected to their plans but never actually seen. Eventually the players discovered it was the pseudonym used by Judas Banks, the billionaire philanthropist (and owner of the world's largest news network) who funded the players' team and arranged things like sponsorships, sold action figures of their characters and covered up their more legally questionable activities. Turned out he was just using superhumans for TV ratings and merchandising deals and would 'retire' heroes who were no longer cooperative or profitable. He was almost exactly the same character concept as that Carter guy.

And yes, I actually named a backstabbing billionaire Judas Banks.
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>>82330600
Stop deflecting. If describing how you investigate a room is osr autism, and rolling for perception is also bad, how do you, personally, engage in exploration?
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>>82331725
>Stop deflecting
>He said, while deflecting three questions
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>>82317546
garbage
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>>82318355
That's cause Wick is a loser. He's not smart enough to out think anyone, so all he can do is cheat. He's a petty douchebag who abuses every ounce of authority he's got to 'get even' with anyone who's smarter than him, which is a lot of people. All of his 'advice' is him trying to get people to accept him being a grubby scumbag, trying to normalize being a massive turd. He'll always be the GM, cause not being able to make up bullshit would leave him wallowing in impotent rage.
>>
>>82320966
>>82321033
Because while he's a petty tyrant when he's got you under his thumb, he's a consummate brown noser to anyone above him. A regular groveling gremlin. No ass left unkissed, no boots left unlicked. A mewling manlet with no spine. Until he's one step above you on the ladder, then all the shit rolls down hill and expect every slight, real and imagined, to be payed back a hundred fold.
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>>82322023
Christ, what pile of dogshit was this from? Who ever wrote that should be beaten with a sack full of metal d4s.
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>>82331598
Did you kill the beloved ones of one of the supes on first fucking session, because they had one as their weakness? Did you brown-beat another player for playing a flying brick and cast them into box of shame for wanting to play a super hero? Did you remember to slaughter everyone still not retired? Did you make in the end a story about it how the point of running super games is breaking spirit of the players and feel all smug about how you "showed them their place"?
No?
Then you are nowhere near as bad as Wick.
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>>82328928
>traps are boring for the adventurers that are coming to kill us, and it might slow them down, guys. Let's not use them.
The point of traps is to gain a tactical advantage. They damage, delay or divert the enemy, or alert the defending force to their presence. They don't install traps because it would be "interesting" for the enemy, they install them because invaders are easier to kill when they're impaled on wall spikes or at the bottom of a pit. Throwing logical decisions from the defenders out just because the players might stop and look for traps removes more tension than the actual investigation ever would.

It's clear that the failing here is you, unable to design interesting or creative traps. Both falling into or defeating a trap is an interesting interaction if the trap is interesting. It adds a complication that turns an otherwise simple combat into a tactical puzzle, or conversely rewards cautious or tactically aware players and making them feel smart. You're finding them boring because you seem to be reducing everything to a dice roll in a vacuum.
>>
>>82313716

You mean how he had to beg and cajole to get back to writing 7th Sea because people kicked him out for being an obnoxious cunt and he had to bend the knee to SJWs?
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>>82333939
>is to gain a tactical advantage
... to a nameless, faceless NPCs that aren't even present, for the traps are "ancient"
>Rest of the post
It's clear to me you flat-out ignored what was the complain about traps and instead go the standard route of "b-but that means your traps aren't creative enough".
Tell me, what difference the creativity will make, when player will resolve it as "I detect traps" and "I disarm/step over the trap"? Or how much fun it's going to be if you forbid them from doing that (or the game simply not having rule detection) and now they will either run into a trap and suffer the consequences (which is fine, but it also tends to lead to TPK) or, worse, refuse to progress ahead, because they need to first find and then disable the trap. For the rest of the evening.
Truly, if only the trap was more complex and more interesting, then the whole concept will surely work!

I'd rather have a fucking land mine than traps. At least that one works as intended - either it blows you into pieces, or it doesn't
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>>82333939
If only anon described other scenarios than rolling dice to overcome traps and why they won't work, too...
If only you could prove him wrong by answering his own request, so clearly worded in his post...
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>>82331139
Do you... Actually think you can't have time pressure in an RPG?
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>>82334159
Is this the founding ancestor of Hayase bloodline?
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>>82334483
Do you... actually bothered to read the post?
Seems to me you didn't, given you completely missed the point once more.
How starved for human attention are you, exactly?
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>>82332864
>I still cannot answer the original question

Okay bud, sure. You play all the games.
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>>82329747
quotes me, then quotes nobody
conflates me with nobody
motherfucker, you're as big a dickbag as john wick.
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>>82334579
Yeah, it describes a timed puzzle in an absolute classic of a video game, but then claims doing it at the tabletop is impossible. Despite the fact that literal timed challenges and in-game time limits are both well known and popular mechanics in board games and RPGs.
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>>82335085
Different anon, but if you are talking clocks, you are genuinely retarded and if you are talking real time, then you never played anything at all.
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>>82335353
Escape the Cursed Temple is a board game with a real timer and fun as fuck. Real life timers in RPGs can be very interesting, especially when you point out combat takes 10x as long but walking/manual labour is the other way around.
"Clocks" in the PBtA sense are just a snappy term for in game time issues. The players have the length of their last torch to find the way out of the catacomb. The ceiling will drop and crush them in 10 rounds (or even descends 1dX feet per round, to add a sense of unpredictability). Then the characters will need to understand the room and choose what to investigate or do in a limited number of actions.
I feel like you guys have absolutely no grasp of pacing if these basic ideas are alien to you.
"But people can't understand box text" then use a prepared drawing or improve your acting. I don't give a shit.
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>>82335439
Most RPGs after early D&D seem to have dropped the concept of strict timekeeping which has been a great loss to the medium. Many mechanics don't make sense outside the context of time pressure which is why you get anons who don't understand the purpose of traps.

>“Game time is of utmost importance. Failure to keep careful track of time expenditure by player characters will result in many anomalies in the game. The stricture of time is what makes recovery of hit points meaningful. Likewise, the time spent adventuring in wilderness areas removes concerned characters from their bases of operations – be they rented chambers or battlemented strongholds. Certainly the most important time strictures pertains to the manufacturing of magic items, for during the period of such activity no adventuring can be done. Time is also considered in gaining levels and learning new languages and more. All of these demands upon game time force choices upon player characters and likewise number their days of game life…YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT.”
-AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide
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>>82335505
I go back and forth on this. I don't think you have to be permanently anal about it, but when it matters it really matters.
I find it disquieting that such a basic thing is apparently the lost and ancient magjicks to these other posters. Especially one crusty enough to pull out TR3 (and not one of the more memorable puzzles) as an example of a simple spiked ceiling.
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>>82331598
>eventually the players discovered
see, thats what makes you different from john wick. for you, that villain is just that, a powerful, smart antagonist but still an antagonist, whose plans are there to be discovered by players. jw's carter instead:
>has no real plans, he just controls everyone because he can
>destroys every super who even just comes closer to unmasking him in bullshit overpowered ways (disease to kill disease-immune supers for example)
>he clearly consider him cooler that any pc and treats him as his character, giving him whatever arbitrary resource he needs to always win
>hes not the antagonist, just a beating stick to break the player's toys when they are having too much fun
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>>82328928
>Then traps make sense. As something that will either brutally maim you (retiring a character) or flat-out kill you. Either way, your character is out for good
lmao.
>everything that has the intent to kill always does so, whithout fail
what fucking games are you playing? this is genuinely so funny.
>the orc swings his sword, *roll* he hits you. you character is dead. it would not make sense for a sword to not kill someone, thats what swords are for.
or wait, is this only about traps? traps trascend both game mechanics and setting expectations and just kill you?
>the goblin throws a bear trap at your feets. it closes around your leg and severs an artery. you pass out and die within minutes
you are an idiot.
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>>82335581
The whole 'if you have immunity, it's only immunity to the cure!" proably came from when Johny boy tried to pull a gotcha on a character with some diseased thing and the player calmly reminded him that they were immune to it. For a petty control freak like him, the public shame and humiliation would not stand. Chants of "Flick the Wick!" rang through his head, the deep scars of too many atomic wedgies began to itch in sympathy. No. He decided. To hell with the rules. He would show them. He would show them all!
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>>82333505
The World's Largest Dungeon.

Funny how it was banking so much on its central gimmick, but the map feels like it was generated by software then keyed (horribly) later. There have been a lot of fantastic, lovingly crafted megadungeons, before and after.
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>>82335880
>we designed a shitty dungeon. bend and alter the rules as you are playing to prevent it from breaking.
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>>82336029
>players beating the dungeon with cleverness instead of rolling dice? that's cheating, fuck them you should cheat back

The weird thing is I still this today. There's a Sly Flourish book that gets a lot of praise but it has a whole chapter on how if the PCs figure out how to kill all the goblins, what you need to do is secretly add more goblins.
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>>82335880
>players fine 19 of the 20 traps in the dungeon
>accidentally trigger the last one, which was written in the dungeon as a simple arrow trap
>roll 20d8 because this was the only trap they experienced and they need to be punished for falling into it
This is so so shit. please stop posting snippets, I need a whole pdf so i know what not to do
>>
>>82334159
God I'd betray humanity in a heartbeat to plow that smug demon to fruition
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>>82336090
OPh here, you can find the entire PDF attached to the first post or just pirate it by searching for it on google by the title
>>
>>82338964
I think he means WLD, not Wick's lame as fuck book.





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