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What went wrong?
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>>81720369
Probably somewhere around the point when some dudes read Neuromancer and said "yeah this is alright but it'd be waaaay cooler if it had elves in it."
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>>81720369
Personally the book read like a Choose Your Own Adventure Novel.
>>
-Company only shits out product to capitalize on tie ins and keep the license
-Shit editing
-Writer pet characters
~Overabundance of gear with only minor differences
>>
>>81720473
Pretty much this for me. Like, imagine watching Ghost in the Shell and going 'yeah this should have orcs in it'. Terrible.

That said, the enduring popularity of Shadowrun even in the face of gross mismanagement tells me that a huge chunk people actually liked its aesthetic.
>>
>>81720473
fpbp
>>
>>81720369

Too much chummer, not enough choombatta.
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>>81720369
Like pretty much every "medium popularity" rpg system they gave up trying to reach a mass market and decided to their milk their extreme fanboys, so the system now is too outdated and inbreed to be fun for anyone else
>>
>>81720473
He asked what went wrong, not what went right.
>>
>>81720473
>>81720637
Imagine being so souless that you look at an elf with a submachinegun firing at an orc with a huge cannon and thinking "this is cringe"
>>
>>81720369
Porchbux
>>
>>81720897
Imagine having such a severe case of brainworms that you can't enjoy a dystopian future without it having hobbits and trolls.
>>
>>81721027
But it made playing a klansman way more justifiable. I cant hate on black people but i can hate on trolls and elves and be perfectly fine.
>>
Bunch of slack jawed faggots around here.
Shadowrun 2nd edition will make a god damn gaming sexual tyrannosaurs.

Seriously, some of my fondest gaming memories where with shadowrun.

Maybe you just had to be there.
>>
>>81720369
- Bloat thanks to the "more is more" school of game development.
- A line dev with a total contempt for errata and playtesting that prefers to just keep making new (broken) editions rather than seriously iterating an old one.

Until SR gets a new lead dev, it's never going to anything more than different flavours of shit.
>>
>>81721402
>gaming sexual tyrannosaurs.
>Maybe you just had to be there.
Yeah.
>>
>>81720369
Orcs and elves in a cyberpunk never had and never will make sense.
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>>81721793
they need to make netdecks easier to use so orcs in the community can get ahead
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>>81720369
>Overt change from Punk characters fighting the corps to Super Mercenaries getting souped-up magic, tech, and hacking at start.
>Magic is broke as fuck, taking over the cyberpunk portion, without a workable counter.
>DMPCs, OCs, most obviously Jackpoint being the only Shadowrunner lens we got, and they're all basically some shitter's Discord friends.
>Ares Alpha becoming the be-all-end-all gun at start

Among other things.
>>
>>81721027
>tfw dragons don't have military trained Kobold swat teams at the ready
Who the fuck wanted bug spirits again when we coulda had this?
>>
>>81722226
Honestly I think one of Shadowrun's biggest non-mechanical flaws is it's reluctance to mix the fantastic and the technological. I don't give a shit if magic and tech are opposed, give me golems with heavy weapons that reform their clay bodies like the liquid metal Terminator, cybernetic dragons with plasma-breath, and spirit-possessed tanks. I want enchanted monofilament wires that are controlled by thought, I want spirits used as a pseudo-AI to drive spidertanks, with homing missiles ritually enchanted to cause lightning to strike from the skies when they reach their target.
Necrocybermancy is the coolest shit in the lore but cyberzombies are criminally un-fleshed out.
>>
>>81722364
The problem with all of that is having a Shadowrun without destroying Seattle.
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>>81720369
Definitely the lack of dragon sex, at this point in Shadowrun Dragons have become such an important subject that the lack of interacial or just plain mating dragon porn is inexcusable.
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>>81722438
It's a big city, you can flatten a couple blocks.
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>>81722508
I don't know if you've seen the explosives rules in 2e but you'll be there till doomsday flattening anything.
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>>81720369
Anonymous posting on the 'net.
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>>81722529
I'm a 5e babby but the explosive rules are pretty hellish there too.
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>>81720473
>>81720637
>>81721793
This actually makes the setting viable. Cyberpunk as a genre is already silly and outdated. Parts of it happen and nobody cares because it's not that bad and noticeable, parts will never happen the way it described. So it lingers in retrofuturistic limbo.
Radically changing something, e.g. introducing awakening, shifts the setting from somewhat realistic predictions to pure fantasy and allows it to be coherent and nonconflicting with real world, because they don't clash.
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>>81723186
>coherent and nonconflicting with real world
wrong hobby for that newfren
go windowshop for meaning elsewhere
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>>81723186
The thing for me is that the Awakening is such a conflicting flavour. If it was cyberpunk plus vampires, or plus psychics, or Doom-style hell stuff I could get behind it. "Plus D&D" is such a specific and jarring inclusion I can't get my brain to accept it.
It's the same sort of feeling that makes me laugh at Kingdom Hearts.
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>>81720369
Mormons
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>>81723186
>thing is outdated
>parts of thing happen but they aren't that bad
These things don't go together. If anything, the fact that things are happening means we should probably not just go along with shit just because it's "not that bad" before they become "it's bad but you deserve it."
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>>81723186
>it's not that bad and noticeable
You feel that way because you never were a fighter, you're the willing underclass.
>>
>>81720369
The same thing that went wrong with every role playing game ever. A second edition was published, when all that was ever needed was reprints of the first.

Don't get me started on numbers greater than two.
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>>81720369
CGL
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>>81720473
Nah, its how Shadowrun got to stand out of the crowd of cyberpunk RPG's, by mixing the fantasy elements
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>>81724093
FATAL also "stands out".
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>>81724246
FATAL is not comparable, you might as well bring up Racial Holy War
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>>81720897
The cringe part is when it's regarded a cyberpunk system and recommended as such. That's like recommending D&D as a historical medieval game.
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>>81722364
>cyberzombies are criminally un-fleshed out
Wouldn't that make them cyber-skeletons?
>>
What if elves and orcs n shit were the product of popular transhuman bodymodifications?
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>>81721402
>>81721511
>>
>>81720369
Wireless tech?
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>>81724759
Agreed. Any time they try to "modernize" the tech, its been a mistake. Weird retrofutristic fantasy alt-history doesn't need to go to great lengths to justify no wifi.
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>>81720369
The fantasy part is it's greatest strength but ironically it's greatest weakness as well. That's why although less popular, Earthdawn is by far a better setting.
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>>81720955
This.
Also the dicepool system and having a decking and metaphysical system is dumping a lot of shit on the gm.
And our current irl dystopia is a real thing so cyberpunk dystopias from the 80s don't really cut it anymore.
>>
>>81720369
publishing the 6th edition.
okay, okay, also the matrix rules.
>>
Drekposting should be banned.
>>
>>81723186
>Parts of it happen and nobody cares because it's not that bad

It's like I'm literally reading from any of the cyberpunk sourcebooks, holy shit.
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>>81724293
They have those too (at least for elves). Elf posers are pathetic and sad, but continue to exist.
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>>81720569
Yeah, basically once Catalyst took over.
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>>81722364
In that case you want GURPS Technomancer. Even if you dislike the system, the setting is great.
>>
Magic is over powered, being wired and augmented actually sucks and takes away too much essence, weird autistic rules and the inconsistent lore.
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>>81720637
Fuck you I love bebop and the fortune tellers were universally accurate and they summoned a FENG SHUI PORTAL.
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>>81725284
>And our current irl dystopia is a real thing so cyberpunk dystopias from the 80s don't really cut it anymore
Yeah, because the modern dystopia is boring.
Can you imagine a modern cyberpunk setting? It would just be
>eat the bugs
>live in the pod
>drink the corn syrup
>take the meds
>and be (actually) happy (or at least content)

In the real future nobody will even go outside.
>>
>>81720637
You can always find some usable equivalent, like outlaw bikers or a gang of clowns.
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>>81730801
Sounds more like a failure of imagination on your part
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>>81720369
Unironic lack of 90s anime artstyle.
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>>81720369
This >>81720885. Eslfag speaks the truth.
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>>81732174
Looks like the japs get some really nice artwork.
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>>81732243
I'm still wishing some kind souls translates Shadowrun CD. Even if its a shitty game.
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>>81732283
Me too. Seems like a team was trying to do it back in the ancient age of the 2010's but looks like they never finished.
You could try machine translation, I've found a couple of examples of people doing so, or you could have some balls and learn the nipponese hieroglyphics.
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>>81723186
Cyberpunk is very silly, but so is fantasy crap appearing apropos to nothing. Shadowrun is a silly game and it is as crude as its high concept of fantasy cyberpunk. "Viability" and anything that nebulous doesn't matter to the game’s enjoyment or mechanics at all.
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>>81732755
It's just a "magic returning to the world" plot, but the world in question was on the verge of a cyberpunk era. It's not a fantasy world that's progressed to cyberpunk, it's a cyberpunk Earth that suddenly had kids born with elf ears and voice hearing schizos turn out to *actually* be hearing voices.
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>>81720369
3e was released.

Also the minigames of rigging and decking were badly integrated, they didn't work well in a group framework.
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>>81720369
There's quite a lot that went wrong, but I think technomancers are fucking stupid and ruin a lot about the setting. Technology and magic are supposed to be diametrically opposed, so having a bunch of idiots who are able to do both with no drawbacks running around is antithetical to the setting.
The Matrix going largely wireless also is not great - needing physical access to that shit is core to the setting, and removing that requirement throws a wrench in a lot of potential adventures
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>>81732953
Yeah, most systems bake that in with magic being hindered by armor or other energy sources on gear.
It seems not only in-line thematically but also a natural mechanical progression in a meta sense, that tech would be magically stifling.
Could even provide reflections of that in-game like being in an area/setting where where one was dominant, the other would be barely functional.
I never was able to find a group for it because of my era, but the game fascinates me as an observer and casual genesis/xbox/pc game enjoyer.
It makes a lot of VERY strange choices.
>>
>>81733008
The thing is, SR actually has all of that, and the vast majority of casters are kinda weak and have all sorts of limitations on their magic, including stuff like time of day restrictions, glaringly obvious somatic and verbal components, etc. But nothing says PC casters have to have any of that, so they get to be the 1 in a million caster with very strong and very open magic, who can cast silently with just a thought and never need to ask if they have enough juice to do anything.
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>>81732953
Technomancers aren't technically magic.
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>>81720369
FASA died and ultimately the game's chances were destroyed.
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>>81720369
3rd edition.
1st was good and 2nd was an excellent refinement.
3rd went to being a self parody instead of playing a farcical situation completely straight, which ruins the joke.

It's the difference between Police Squad and Scary Movie. None of the characters in Police Squad act like they are in a comedy and their straight responses to the absurdity are where the comedy lies. In Scary Movie everyone acts like they are in a comedy and know it so it loses the entertainment value.

Shadowrun was absurd, the style, the art, the world, but no one in the world (except maybe Harlequin and Dunkelzahn) knew this.

It led to this vibe where you had these serious action hero or neonoir characters in a Kafkaesque dystopia surrounded by Tolkien's acid trip that was the comedy.

Once it stopped treating this as serious business in a faerie nightmare, it lost what made it great. It became a slog of stupidity and forced comedy.
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>>81733220
They're just fucking wizards dude.
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>>81733998
Technos and mages play very different roles in the group.
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>>81734009
You're missing the point, which is that they're a paradox lore-wise. Technology and magic oppose each other, and yet Technomancers are just Technology Wizards.
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>>81734065
no they're not. It's explicity stated in core the resonance is not magic.
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>>81734093
You're right. It's something totally different and special, because the entire concept is so fucking special snowflake mary sue shit it hurts.
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>>81734162
Don't care lmao. I only play SR to be an austistic minmaxer.
>>
I made a playlist for my Shadowrun game and it's bad to the bone
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>>81724093
When it first came out there was literally one other Cyberpunk RPG.

Gurps Cyberpunk might have been competition but got delayed for years.
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>>81734241
>technomancy is magic and contradicts the core theme of the game
>w-well no it isn't, the book says so
>but it functions identically to magic
>y-yeah well they serve different roles in a party
>great, but this is a lore discussion
>HAHA I FOOLED YOU, I WAS MAKING A GAMEPLAY ARGUMENT AND I'M ONLY PRETENDING TO BE RETARDED
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>>81734969
>played GURPS
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>>81720369
The cyberpunk aspect
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>>81720369
I couldn't tell you, I thought it was a stupid premise.
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>>81730613
So I'm supposed to not take Shadowrun seriously but the cong throwing thunder to a dragon while the americans assault the base in flying carpets is totally gritty and realistic.
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>>81720369
Dope world, shitty rules with multiple subsystems.
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>>81737983
I didn't say that, I recommended Technomancer because it allows magitech to exist and despite lots of weirdness like the Communist Penguin Hivemind, it treats them with intelligence and seriousness.

The art's a bit misleading there, since the Vietcong were utterly outclassed magically - but a picture of US Black Brigade soldiers raising the dead at My Lai to devour guerrillas might not have been allowed...
>>
>>81720955
>Porchbux
Explain?
>>
>>81739050
The CEO of Catalyst apperently embezzled a shitload of money, which, among other things, was used to upgrade his porch
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>>81720369
You got the folks who hated the "magic meets cyberpunk" idea from the getgo. Then you have the people who hated the metaplot. Then there's Earthdawn crossover bits that pissed folks off (cross game metaplot!). Then there's the folks who don't like how Shadowrun's history/tech diverges more and more from our own with each year/edition. Then there's the fluffy bits that people don't like, but don't fit any of the above categories. And -now- we get to the mechanics, and there's even more complaints, with each edition opening a new can of worms.

None of which even touches the poor editing and development the line's gotten under Catalyst.

Personally, I like Shadowrun, but it sucks. The setting is too wrapped up in its own metaplots and evolving storyline. The technology and magic both need more of a character (and player!) driven creativity to them to capture my favorite bits of their source genres (then again, I'm a sucker for systems that actively encourage and support player creativity). And I think the setting really shines when you focus on playing more "street level nobodies living day to day" instead of "verge of famous freelance mercenaries" (like playing private investigators instead of... well.. shadowrunners).

At this point, the current publishers circling of the drain may be a blessing to the IP. Kinda' like how Ars Magica was allowed to have a fixed time period the published gameline didn't really move past (although that was by design).
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>>81720889
Gotta' admit, sometimes it feels like there's folk who think Shadowrun's existence killed Cyberpunk 2020, CyberHERO, CyberSpace, and anything else cyberpunk related, just for the crime of being popular back in the 90s.
>>
>>81723644
Well, it's still outdated. You need to update the predictions of the future so they fit with what we're expecting.
>>
>>81720473
Shadowrun is at its core an urban fantasy about magic returning back to the world changing everyone's lives. The cyberpunk stuff is just because it plays 60 years in the future.
>>
>>81740720
Iirc the furthest the time line goes is the 2050's, with plenty of the plot happening in the 20's and 30's.
>>
>>81742180
The metaplot is at 2082 or so in 6th edition.
>>
>>81723186
I like regular cyberpunk more than SR, but you have a point there. Even one of the most grounded cyberpunk-ish scifi settings, Transhuman Space, feels outdated as hell in parts. It's easier to forget about that if you have outright elves running around
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>>81720369
FASA went belly up.
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>>81720885
>Like pretty much every "medium popularity" rpg system they gave up trying to reach a mass market and decided to their milk their extreme fanboys, so the system now is too outdated and inbreed to be fun for anyone else

Objectively wrong, they tried to appeal to a less hardcore audience and completely fucked it up with 6e, leaving us with something not even the actual play shills can tolerate.
>>
>>81720369
Dev: 'I’ve got this cool 80’s Cyberpunk game called Cyberpunk 2020!'
Player: 'Oh yeah? Sounds fun. When are we gon-'
Dev: 'But I’ve designed my own game and added fantasy stuff into it!'
Player: 'Isn’t fantasy/magic stuff more like wish-fulfillment and less dystopian grime? I just don’t think the two will combine well.’
Dev: 'Shut up and let me teach you the rules!'
Player: 'Okay fine! How long will it take me; a normal person with a moderate IQ to learn?'
Dev: 'About 2 hours and I’ve used terms and nouns that don’t really match what the game mechanics are.'
Player: 'Ah man I dunn-'
Dev: '...and you’ll have to learn a bunch more rules specific to your role.'
Player: 'umm ...'
Dev: 'plus you have to remember what metaphysical state your player is in as to what they can interact with...'
Player: 'you know I-'
Dev: 'and sometimes you know your hacker will be having this 20 min solo game whilst you sit and look at your phone not able to do much.'
Player: 'Why can’t we just play Cyberpunk 2020 again?'
>>
>>81732283
>>81732337
Some dude over at an obscure forum is doing an LP thanks to machine translations.
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/shadowrun-1996-for-sega-cd-シャドウラン.138676/

Spoiler: I looks like the game kinda sucks!
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>>81743472
>plus you have to remember what metaphysical state your player is in
What the fuck is this? I've never played shadowrun.
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>>81743695
I think it means whether or not they are in meatspace (aka regular ass world), the Matrix, or the Astral
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>>81743472
CP2020 is cool, but also kinda really fuckin' outdated in parts and some rules are very poorly defined. If it had a tighter ruleset it would probably have made #1; Shadowrun was a complicated mess but a comparatively well-defined mess at that.
>>
>>81723186
>Cyberpunk as a genre is already silly and outdated. Parts of it happen and nobody cares because it's not that bad and noticeable,

One of my favorite bits from the Netrunner game was this card that had people playing in a park on a sunny day. Not a VR simulation, not an implanted memory, just a nice park on a sunny day.

And that's what Cyberpunk/Shadowrun forget: the world goes on regardless of stock markets, corporate espionage, or scary new things. The genre gets so wrapped up in its bitter protagonists brooding in the city rain at night, that it never considers people doing anything else with their lives.

Plus, as time has taught us, companies don't want to take on the responsibilities of governments (when they can get governments to do what they want for free), China is the nation to watch and not Japan, VR is a slow and shitty interface for anything besides games, and the new superflu wasn't all that super.
>>
>>81743695
Trying to simplify...

Some magic users can astral project themselves.
Some can only perceive the astral world.
Some can't do either.
Some hackers can only use augmented reality.
Some can also enter the matrix.

There are different rules for all different "states".

For example (if I remember my 5ed 600+ page core rulebook correctly) say you want to hack a mainframe? If you only use AR then you have to use different rules for how you attack and are attacked digitally than if you're in a full virtual reality environment.

>>81743769
I know it out-dated and Red did nothing to help that, but at least it feels more like cyberpunk and I can actually hope to be able to teach the game to the average player.
>>
>>81743769
>>81723186
>>81740672
>>81743808
>>81742871
How the fuck is cyberpunk outdated? What would your gigagenius brains do instead?
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>>81743819
Want something for that butthurt?

Look, I love Cyberpunk 2020 and the Bubblegum Crisis books too.

But it is clunky and a pain to work around.

Like I said I hoped Red would have fixed it but instead it simplified the game soo far that it was a completely different game.

Oh so guns are only different based on their dmg die now? So why would I not always use the one with the highest dmg potential? Like in DnD? Why did you get rid of FNFF cd projekt red?
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>>81743819
Because the sun still shines and we don't have acid rain all the time, unlike Cyberpunk fiction predicted.
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>>81743819
Cyberpunk didn't predict the internet correctly. Of course, neither did anyone irl until the Web 2.0 took off, but older Cyberpunk material is now retrofuturistic instead of actually futuristic.
>>
>>81723186
Cyberpunk as a setting might be outdated, but as an aesthetic it’s more relevant than ever. If people just keep on aping the 80s versions of cyberpunk then its stagnant and that’s never what cyberpunk was about anyways. Cyberpunk is dark future, so look to the future for new places to move the setting.
>>
Shadowrun was always just cyberpunk with a few fantasy elements bolted on. They tried to get into metaplot twenty years ago which included earthdawn.

They peaked with 3rd edition imho, aborted the metaplot and further editions went downhill ruleswise. Specifically they got so bloated that resolution is a pain for anyone who does not mind to memorize a few hundred pages ruleswise.
>>
>>81744643
>>81733463
you two should fight.
I'd say my favorite is shadowrun 4e with ends of the matrix because that matrix system is marginally less ass than the others and playing a decker isn't just a huge money sink.
>>
>>81743892
Oh, you're talking about in terms of gameplay and rules. I thought you were talking about conceptually and saying that corporations don't control our lives.
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>>81720369
With 2e? Nothing, it's perfect.
>>
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>>81720369
d6 dice pools
orks and elves in cyberpunk
nonsensical rules
essence working in reverse to how it should
kitchen sink but in the bad way instead of the fun way like in rifts
>>
>>81720369
SR4e

>>81720473
what happened there was they had a generic cyberpunk RPG that was going to be first of its kind when R Talsorian beat them to the punch, so they went back to the drawing board and added fantasy elements to give it unique flavor
>>
>>81724286
criminally underrated carlos poster
>>
>>81745726
Nah I love the 80's hair-metal vibe.



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