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Has anyone ever actually dual classed? Not only is it extremely impractical due to the requirements, it seems straight up useless. You miss out on experience by using any value of your original class, so what exactly is the point?
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>>81709897
dual classing is for after youve reached a sufficient level in one class and want to shore up your skills where youre lacking. Its very much like multiclassing in 3.x in that regard, and it's a common tactic to level in thief and switch to mage
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>>81710394
This.
Thief -> Mage or Fighter -> Mage was pretty common
The biggest downside was only if your DM actually used the rules saying you need to seek out training and/or the one that says all excess XP after leveling is lost.
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>>81710394
But your experience is docked if you use anything from your previous class, even saves and THAC0.
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>>81710541
so you have to kill some more fuckers to level, so what? You're in it for the long haul, right?
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>>81709897
Dual classing existed in the context of oD&D and 2e, where even in story-driven campaigns you could say "Ok, my character will now dual-class, due to practical or personal in-character reasons, let's tackle small local problems and fight orcs and kobolds for a while."
And the party would be OK with it because it's a nice change of pace and it means their Thief will become a Fighter-Thief and actually be able to contribute more meaningfully before they're even halfway through to their next level.
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>>81709897
The problem with dual-classing has nothing to do with the mechanics being bad. The problem with it has always been that the restrictions and mechanics make no intuitive sense at all.
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>>81711011
Sounds like the fantasy of a nogame.
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I don't think my friends have even fully wrapped their heads around what Dual Class is and when you would use it.
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>>81711544
Meds. Now.
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>>81709897
>so what exactly is the point?
Preventing the kind munchkinry of that 3e's "fixed" dualclassing allows for

>>81711528
>the restrictions and mechanics make no intuitive sense at all
Whoa it's almost like you need to think about shit instead of using your feelings all the time like some WOTCuck
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>>81711544
Newfags always in a hurry to out themselves.
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>>81711758
>think about shit instead of using your feelings all the time
I can tell you're too young to have met the average 2e era player.
5e is just a return to the dark age of 2e except without any of the good stuff 2e had.
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>>81712501
>>81711735
>yeah we'll spend the next 20 sessions babysitting you while you level up on endless trash mobs so we can go on real adventures
>the DM is totally into that too, he'll just spawn some kobolds for us to kill in the wilderness
You've never played a game in your life.
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>>81712552
Way to out yourself even more, newfag. XP in early D&D gained from killing is negligible. You wouldn't be grinding "trash mobs" as you put it because that'd be pointless.
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>>81712627
7 xp per kobold kill.
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>>81712627
Keep outing yourself as an ignorant nogame retard.
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>>81712639
Yeah, so fucking negligible since it's split among the party. If you're playing with gold for xp why would you waste time grinding
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>>81712695
Gold for xp is the biggest fucking meme spouted by nogame shitters masquerading as grognards. Even if you were autistic enough to use that stupid rule, treasure is still guarded by monsters that you have no choice but to kill 99%, so it's completely meaningless. Also
>yeah we'll spend the next 20 sessions going through level 1 dungeons which the DM totally made plenty of while you safely get enough gold to get back to our level
None of your justifications make a lick of sense to anyone who's played a game even once in their life.
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>>81712748
Even when I was a kid, looking at xp values and then at xp tables made it clear they don't add up. To "grind" xp, you'd need to be hunting down and farming monsters with innate wizard abilities, level, and stat drain. Not the way the game is designed to be played and extremely hazardous.
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>>81712639
>What are individual class XP
I think early dnd is actually not a good game at all and I would say that's not how you actually gained levels, AND it is actually a horrible idea to go out grinding instead of just having the party baby sit a character because the XP from high level encounters is quadratic instead of linear.
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>>81712748
>treasure is still guarded by monsters that you have no choice but to kill 99%
Or it could be guarded by traps. Or, if it is guarded by a monster, you could send the thief to steal it. Early D&D needed you to play it safe, since there was no way to tell if a fight was winnable beyond eyeballing it.
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>>81709897
so what exactly is the point?

Start as a fighter and get to 6th level. have 40 hp or more. Switch to Thief or magic user. Level up there. Still have 40 hit points as a 1st level mu. level up to 7th level, can now use shit like bows and swords freely as a magic user, and can now use all magic items both fighters and mages can fight as a fighter with the better table. Dual class characters in 1e were not meant to be OP they are supposed to be difficult.

Also, they're supposed to be the gateway to the REAL bard class used in 1e. You start as a fighter, then become a thief, than become a kickass bard. Bard in 1e was a super awesome character, far more so than the 2e and later version. It was meant to be a skald or celtic type lore master, not some minstrel or court fool type character.
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>>81712748
> you have no choice but to kill 99%
what is sneaking by them?
what is intimidating or befriending the enemy into letting you pass (this shit was even built into the goldbox vidya)?
and this is embedded in the core rules, even in 0e. Bully your way into the enemy lair and take their stuff. You're not medieval themed superheroes, you're Arsene Lupin or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. You're Mission Impossible or the Swamp Fox (I know, I know, no one besides me remembers the Swamp Fox. It was on Disney channel one night). You're the first half of the first Conan movie. Fight only when you have to, lest you have to make use of that 5 minute character creation process
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>>81714910
>what is sneaking by them?
Something that's almost completely up to the DM's fiat and factors outside of your control.
>what is intimidating or befriending the enemy into letting you pass (this shit was even built into the goldbox vidya)?
Something that doesn't even apply to the overwhelming majority of enemies.
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>>81714015
AND THE DICE BETRAY!
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>>81714946
>Something that doesn't even apply to the overwhelming majority of enemies.

0e, Book III The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures, page 12:
Random Actions by Monsters: Other than in pursuit situations, the more intelligent monsters will act randomly according to the results of the score rolled on two
(six-sided) dice:
2–5 negative reaction
6–8 uncertain reaction
9–12 positive reaction
The dice score is to be modified by additions and subtractions for such things as
bribes offered, fear, alignment of the parties concerned, etc.

1e, DMG, page 63:
similar table to above with more granularity

BX/BECMI:
short version: every enemy has a morale value (ML). Roll 2d6 and try to get above ML to make them cower or flee. Usually you do this on first kill and when half the enemy force are slain

shit's built in, your DM is a shitter if he doesn't use this in OSR games

>>81714972
yes. Yes they do. There's no game if you can do anything with 100% certainty. Once in awhile you must make like a circus and flee
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>>81712552
Just using the word 'trash mobs' outs you zoombaby
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>>81712748
sounds like you're either nogames, had a bad DM, or were a bad DM yourself
as other anons pointed out, you can always resort to stealth, manipulation, bartering, or breaking their ranks and forcing them to rout if they fail morale
treasure might also be found by the use of maps or rumors, along with an expedition to get to it
maybe it's not guarded by monsters but by traps and puzzles
gold for XP actually encourages players to interact with the world the way characters in old school pulpy fiction would
you don't HAVE to go through level 1 dungeons either, we would always just bring low level characters with us and have them play the backline, with the way xp progression is structured in early D&D a level 1 character in a party of mid to high level adventurers catches up fast
and most OD&D/1e games I've ran or played in had at least one megadungeon somewhere in the world that players could continuously delve into if they didn't feel like doing anything else, if they needed extra gold, or just felt like exploring some new floors/branches/passages. The DM would always have at least a floor or two of 30-50 rooms ahead of time. There's rules for dungeon generation so it's minimal effort on their part
your posts reek of theory crafting from someone who briefly glanced at the old books without playing them and thought up a narrative of how they go in your mind
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>>81715284
>we would always just bring low level characters with us and have them play the backline,
this
worst case scenario, it's another 5 minute character creation, best case it's a quick 5 levels
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>>81715284
>we would always just bring low level characters with us and have them play the backline
>go ahead dude, be useless while we tackle dangerous monsters and leech our experience, we don't mind
The closest you've ever come to playing a game is reading made up stories on the internet.
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>>81714946
also,
>Something that's almost completely up to the DM's fiat and factors outside of your control.
This is a dumb fucking argument if we're talking about early D&D. Literally everything can be handwaved with DM fiat in any game you play because you're the DM but that doesn't make the mechanics of a game good or bad inherently
If your DM doesn't allow you to interact with the world beyond
>here are some monsters, go swing your swords at them for 6 hours
then your DM is hot garbage, but that doesn't make the game bad. you're just playing it differently from how the designers intended
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>>81715349
so your solution when players die or dual class is to kick them out of the group, so that XP can't be leeched? everyone progresses faster taking low level characters along with high level ones instead of detouring to focus on the low level ones specifically. and they can be useful in non combat scenarios- carrying extra supplies/gold/equipment, carrying torches/lanterns so the fighting men in front of them can have hands free for shields, etc. if you're playing D&D where all characters are solely in the party for combat reasons you're playing D&D wrong
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>>81715432
My solution is to tell players not to dual class because it's a retarded trap.
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>>81715437
so what do you do when characters die then? or do you handhold them through every "trap" scenario where their precious power fantasies standins risk biting the dust or not playing by peak effeciency?
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>>81710541
Only until you equal your previous level. The entire dual class system depended on the way the exp tables were set. Take a look at them.

Basically you double your xp to go to the next level. So if you need 32k xp to go to 6th level you would need 64k to get to 7th and then 125k to get to 8th. At about 10 level this changed, and became a static amount for each level.

So the deal was that for dual classing if you went to say 6th level you could switch classes, and in the time you would have gone to 7th level in your previous class you would now be 6th level (typically'ish) in your new class. Thus getting around that issue with the xp penalty.

In the end, you end up one level behind everyone else but with all of the abilities of two classes.

Look at it this way. You are part of a party and are a cleric. You go up to 10th level (getting that hit dice, etc) and get those spells. You then switch to mage. By the time your buddy who stayed straight mage in your party hits 11th level you will be a 10th level cleric and a 10th level mage. Yeah, you are behind one level of mage. But you end up with twice as many hit points and the entire cleric range of spells up to 10th level casting.

That is basically why it worked out. Granted, not all classes split like that, but that is a pretty decent generalization. Each class of course was different, and even the example above isn't exactly right - just trying to get the idea across.

But, for example (probably the most common) was a fighter needed 250k xp to make 9th level. He needs 500k to make 10th. If you went 9th fighter and switched to mage, dumping 250k xp into the mage class you ended up 9th level fighter and 10th level mage - the same level as the fighter who stayed straight fighter. It was probably the most common split because it added the most hit points to your total character. I liked cleric/mage because of max spells and spell combo.
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>>81715508
Dual classing is almost certainly not what they "want" to do, multi classing is.
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>>81715540
way to dodge the question- so what do you do when players die? do you kick them so they don't leech XP as low level characters? or you don't let them die?
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>>81715685
I'm a different poster. They roll a new character and no one cares if they "leech", because they are friends playing a table top roleplaying game.
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>>81715508
>>
I did, but it's explicitly with GM's approval where it made narrative sense, ignoring the attribute requirement, because there's no way that in 4d6k3 in order you'll have a 16 in something you don't need. I'd never dual class from thief to fighter by core because if I rolled 16 str 16 dex I'd just play a fighter in the first place.
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>level thief until you max out trap disarming
>dual class into a real class
Literally the only reason to do this shit.
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>>81715839
Move silently so that you can backstab with a greatsword, but yes.
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a lot of nogamers here who haved played OSR

no, i will not explain how this works, because none of you play in my group, so i won't have to worry about you dual-classing

but trust me, it just works
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>>81716096
>>81715349
>>81715284
>>81712748
>>81712653
>>81712552
>>81711544
>Same person posting "nogame"over and over. If he were on /pol or /b his posts would contain nothing but the word "nigger" over and over.

Kid, will you just GTFO of here? If you want to learn about dual class and why people do it, fine, if not, go fuck off okay?

People do it so that they can get some skills from a certain class first, like find traps and such, and then class into the class they really wanted. Imagine for example you do thief and then Magic user. Wow, you've not got a fuckton of hp compared to a normal mage, AND can use missile weapons and shit, AND can stealth, AND can do some actual damage via backstab, AND you can detect and disarm traps, AND you have a better combat table. Yeah you have to get to the level above your thief level in mu, but that'll be easy because you have all these extra hp's and then when you're decently leveled up you can also read clerical spell scrolls... holy shit! So yeah, Dual class works.
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>>81715533
You don't get more HD if you multi-class. You only gain your new class' HD when you exceed the level of your old class. For instance if you were a 4th level Fighter and Dual Classed to Mage you would not gain a HD until you gained 5th level as a Mage and would gain a mage's d4. If you were trying to maximize HP you'd start fighter than dual class to Thief at 9 and then gain the Thief's 10th HD. Really that is a lot of bullshit to go though to get an extra 1d6+Con Bonus (max 2) HP.

The only thing I really used it for was to start as a Fighter, Specialize in Weapon, then Dual Class into what I really want to play. You can get that 3/2 attacks/round and a minor bonus to hit/damage.
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>>81716531
>Imagine for example you do thief and then Magic user. Wow, you've not got a fuckton of hp compared to a normal mage
No you don't, you still have diddly dick for HP because thieves are garbage.
>AND can use missile weapons and shit, AND can stealth, AND can do some actual damage via backstab, AND you can detect and disarm traps, AND you have a better combat table
No you can't, not without docking your experience and remaining a level 1 mage forever.
>but that'll be easy because you have all these extra hp'
You've got a couple of level 1 spells per day for what's no longer a level 1 adventure. A fucking thief's HP won't save you.
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>>81716610
>No you don't, you still have diddly dick for HP because thieves are garbage.
You have 50% more hit points. Not a lot, but certainly more.

>No you can't, not without docking your experience and remaining a level 1 mage forever.
I think this has been addressed, you have to wait until after you pass that class previous level. Yeah, it sucks. But it won't take that long.

>You've got a couple of level 1 spells per day for what's no longer a level 1 adventure. A fucking thief's HP won't save you.

Why not? You managed to do it with mage hp, at first level, the first time. Why not this time with a bunch of thief hit dice of hit points? If you are hitting higher level adventures as part of a party, they got your back. If you are playing solo then the DM would adjust the adventure as needed.

I'm not the guy you were replying to, so I got no long term investment in this argument. But it seems pretty obvious you are here just to argue and troll. Go play a game, you will be happier.
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>>81716610
No you fucking dick head. LISTEN! That means you shut your fucking trap for 15 fucking seconds and pay attention and read.

Duel classing for 1e is fucking bone simple. You start as a thief or whatever class. You go to the level you want to stop in that class. Could be you wanna stop at level 3, could be level 9. That's up to you. You get all those hit points.

Now, you fucking duel class into mu or whatever for example. you STILL HAVE ALL THOSE HPs. If you have 40 hp from thieving, you fucking are a 1st level mage with 40 fucking hit points. 50% more than you might have gotten being a 9th level MU. and you get to USE THOSE as your hit point total. do you fucking understand?
Yeah you're 1st level mu, but with a boatload of hp.

NOW, you level up and level up as mu, until you exceed your level as thief. Oh look, now you can freely mix all those skills you acquired as a thief with your mu class. GET IT? Once you surpass your 1st classes level, you get to use all those old skills plus your new one without any penalty. Period. And gee, think about this, you have all the treasure and shit from your first class still, there's a good chance you might have shit like ring of spell storing and scrolls and shit, oh look, that 1st level mu has all sorts of ways to boost their chance for survival in addition to an insane number of hp in comparison to a normal 1st level mu. YA THINK THAT MIGHT HELP SURVIVABILITY? Hmmm I Wonder!

Fuck dude, we get it, you're a zoomer with no fucking patience or reading comprehension and with no ability to cope with the fact that older D&D is fucking a lot harder and doesn't hold your fucking hand like you're in a fucking nursery, but jesus fucking christ... there are limits.
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>>81716793
Thanks bro (or sis) you were a lot more patient with this dullard than I am. You're saintly.

The poster clearly doesn't get that a dual classed character just doesn't get to use the abilities of the other class. That doesn't mean that you lose non weapon profs or all that nifty treasure or all sorts of other stuff like magic items or scrolls or whatnot gained in that other class. Hmmm, that +3 ring of protection, and the bracers of defense, and the boots of spider climbing, the +2 dagger, the cloak of protection +2 all those might just might give that 1st level mu a hell of a big advantage in survival that jo average 1st level mu likely would not have. Not even counting all the extra hp they start with.
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>>81717068
Something tells me that the OP and his desire to argue have left now that someone who clearly knows something yelled at them. They got what they wanted, and left to start another shitpost.
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>>81710440
This.
As a human mage drop level 1 in fighter, take the HP as well as Fighter Str and Con if you can swing it.

By 4th level the 2k xp hit you took for 3 extra levels of HP.
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>>81716531
the point is to cause fights to keep the thread alive.
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>>81720039
it's derailed already, it doesn't matter
though it's interesting to see hypotheticals of people making dual classing actually work, because it sure as shit never made sense to me
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>>81712639
sneak past the 15 kobolds and steal the treasure. it is worth more xp, and takes less time and effort to get. but even then, if your friends wanaa gut kobolds for you, then ok to that too.

if you dual classes, you have enough hp to go on the big boy adventures and can still contribute a little, but reap big rewards.

it's almost like you have never played.
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>>81720438
a decent GM will also grant monster XP for avoiding them, same as if you'd slain them
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>>81714946
so exactly the same as in every version of the game to date.
super-hyper-mega-no-games-combo
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>>81715697
well, your answer is reasonable, but irrelevant. we want to know what the leech poster has to say about dead characters and letting new characters join and leech xp, or if they go back to the noob dungeon and do something there?
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>>81720495
well yeah, it was xp for overcoming the monsters, not specifically killing them. i mean good morale check rolls could defeat a group of enemies after killing just one of them, and that is if you even had to fight them to start.

the biggest advantage to a fighter finding a +1 sword at low levels was the xp boost for treasure/gold.
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>>81717068
>Why not? You managed to do it with mage hp, at first level, the first time. Why not this time with a bunch of thief hit dice of hit points?
>Now, you fucking duel class into mu or whatever for example. you STILL HAVE ALL THOSE HPs. If you have 40 hp from thieving, you fucking are a 1st level mage with 40 fucking hit points.
And you're still not fighting 1st level threats you fucking retard. Your 40 hp is worth precisely jack shit. There are no convenient dungeons left behind that you can waste everyone's time with on grinding. The party needs you right here and now if they're tackling level appropriate challenges. It's a fucking stupid idea and only complete retards would go for it.
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>>81722040
so those 40 hp are worth jack shit if your a first level mage, but are worth full value awesome sauce if your a 9th level thief... are you retarded, or did your mother fail to smother you in the crib?
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>>81722040
1st level magic user has some of the most broken spells in the game
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>>81722603
Time isn't going to turn back and restore all those level 1 dungeons to accomodate your stupid dual classing gimmick. And you're not using your thief shit again unless you want to stay a 9 thief/1 mage abomination forever.
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>>81722040
>1st level threats
>>81722658
>level 1 dungeons
Don't ask me how I know you've never played anything pre-3e. 'Level appropriate content'? Get real, stop making stupid assumptions on how the game works based upon WOTC crap.
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>>81724617
You're the one suggesting MMORPG grinding as a solution to the level disparity caused by retarded character building choices.
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>>81724637
No, you just responded to my first post in the thread.



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