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How does your game handle Spellswords and why does it suck? Why do Spellswords always get ruined by balancefags, who have to make it worse than mages and fighters?
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I take great pleasure in kneecapping characters of gishfags.
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>>81709839
Honestly, if a setting has magic, the "fighters" should all be spellswords anyway.
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The society that separates its mages from its warriors will have its spellcraft done by cowards and its fighting done by fools.
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>>81709839
>half ass two things
>whole ass one thing

Pick one, and live with what you get, homofag.
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>>81709845
It looks like you take great pleasure in making graphs that are inaccurate, too.
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>>81709882
>have peak physical build a mortal can achieve
>mastered many different techniques of my preferred weapon
>study magic and focus on the kind of spells that would enhance my fighting style
>use telekinetic techniques as a form of pseudo-strength
>on top of actual strength buffs
>you are still somehow weaker than a figher

>bullied the nerds in the academy and fucked all of the women there, including teachers
>only write into my spellbooks spells that help me negate the spells of magic users, so I can bully these nerds
>specialize my fighting skill to counter mages
>can even deflect spells thrown at me with my bare hand and a counterspell, if I time it right
>balancefags thinks that to make it fair I have to lose to mages, because it's otherwise "unfair" for me to bully them
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>>81709906
>this is the average gishfag fantasy
lmao
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D&D 4e lets players create some very cool gishes, right from the very low levels. I would like to create a level 2 warlock (hexblade) as an example. We will be using RAW character creation with no freebies, and the book source limitations imposed by Living Forgotten Realms for additional stringency. I am quite certain that this hexblade will have a cooler, more varied, and more effective playstyle than any equivalent 2nd-level gish in D&D 3.5, Pathfinder 1e, 13th Age, D&D 5e, or Pathfinder 2e; and bear in mind that D&D is a 30-level system.

For a class and subclass, we will be choosing warlock (hexblade) with the Gloom Pact, a Dexterity/Charisma-based build.
http://funin.space/compendium/class/Hexblade.html

For a race, we are looking for something likewise Dexterity/Charisma-based, so let us pick dragonborn (kapak draconian). They do exist in the 4e default setting as per the Draconomicon 2, and they were allowed in Living Forgotten Realms. Variant race features are always opt-in, so from the kapak draconian, we will be picking Instinctive Flight and Sinuous Agility. We will also be trading in Dragon Breath for Dragonfear, since it is a better power out-of-the-box.
http://funin.space/compendium/race/Dragonborn.html
http://funin.space/compendium/race/Kapak-Draconian.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Dragonfear.html

For a background, we will take either Auspicious Birth or Born Under a Bad Sign. Hexblades wade into melee, so the extra hit points help.
http://funin.space/compendium/backgrounds/Auspicious-Birth.html
http://funin.space/compendium/backgrounds/Born-Under-a-Bad-Sign.html

For a theme, since Living Forgotten Realms banned Dark Sun themes, we will be taking Ghost of the Past. Its level 1 package is helpful both in and out of combat, and the free History training pairs well with the dragonborn's +2 History.
http://funin.space/compendium/theme/Ghost-of-the-Past.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Guidance-of-the-Past.html
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>>81709906
No one wants to play in power fantasy, faggot.
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>>81710077

For ability scores, we will go with Strength 8, Constitution 12, Dexterity 16+2, Charisma 16+2. Intelligence and Wisdom do not particularly matter; we can assign a 12 to one and a 10 to the other.

A level 2 character has two feats to spare. We will take Rod Expertise as our level 1 feat for +1 attack, +1 AC, and +1 Reflex. We will take Monastic Disciple (Desert Wind Flurry of Blows) for our level 2 feat, giving us an extra skill training, and a fairly useful 1/encounter power that lends extra damage and mobility.
http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Rod-Expertise.html
http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Monastic-Disciple.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Desert-Wind-Flurry-of-Blows.html

D&D 4e characters starting at level 2 are entitled to magic items. We cannot select rare items under the Living Forgotten Realms rules, but we can choose commons and uncommons. We have a level 3 item, a level 2 item, a level 1 item, and just enough gold for another level 1 item. For the level 3 item, we will pick a Siberys Shard of the Mage (actually legal in Living Forgotten Realms), for some extra damage. As our level 2 item, we will pick up a Rod of Smiting +1; since it counts as a mace, it can be outfitted with our shard. Finally, as two level 1 common items, we will get ourselves an Amulet of Protection +1 and Magic Armor +1, boosting our defenses; since hexblades are proficient with hide armor, the armor will be exactly that.
http://funin.space/compendium/item/Rod-of-Smiting.html
http://funin.space/compendium/item/Siberys-Shard-of-the-Mage.html
http://funin.space/compendium/item/Amulet-of-Protection.html
http://funin.space/compendium/item/Magic-Armor.html
http://funin.space/compendium/item/Hide-Armor.html
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>>81710087

Our character's combat numbers are thus as follows:

• Initiative: +5 = 1 half level + 4 Dexterity modifier:
• Speed: 6 squares, fly 6 squares, altitude limit 1 square, but can be used as super-jumps since altitude limit is checked only at the end of the turn: http://funin.space/compendium/glossary/altitude-limit.html

• Attack Bonus: +9 = 1 half level + 4 Charisma modifier + 1 Rod Expertise feat + 1 magic enhancement
• Extra +2 bonus to weapon attack rolls for using a +2 proficiency bonus weapon, extra +1 bonus to attack rolls while bloodied due to Dragonborn Fury
• Damage Bonus: +10 = 4 Charisma modifier + 4 Dexterity modifier Gloom Pact + 1 magic enhancement + 1 Siberys Shard of the Mage

• AC: 20 = 10 base + 1 half level + 4 Dexterity modifier + 1 shield Rod Expertise + 1 magic enhancement + 3 hide armor
• Fortitude: 14 = 10 base + 1 half level + 1 Constitution modifier + 1 hexblade + 1 magic enhancement
• Reflex: 17 = 10 base + 1 half level + 4 Dexterity modifier + 1 shield Rod Expertise + 1 magic enhancement
• Will: 17 = 10 base + 1 half level + 4 Charisma modifier + 1 hexblade + 1 magic enhancement

• Hit Points: 35 = 12 warlock first level + 5 warlock second level + 18 Dexterity/Charisma score from Auspicious Birth or Born Under a Bad Sign background
• Healing Surges: 7 = 6 warlock + 1 Constitution modifier
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>>81710094

Now, it is time for powers. All hexblades are entitled to Eldritch Bolt at level 1:
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Eldritch-Bolt.html

However, since it is a leveled power, and it is not labeled as a feature, we will use the retraining rules to replace it with Echoing Dirge instead. This is a particularly useful power for a hexblade, because the built-in striker damage bonus of a hexblade applies to both targets. Thus, Echoing Dirge deals big damage to two enemies while (optionally) pushing them away.
http://funin.space/compendium/glossary/Retraining.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Echoing-Dirge.html

All Gloom Pact hexblades are entitled to a scourge of exquisite agony, a reach 2 one-handed weapon which they can freely conjure for battle. This lets them use Flesh Rend, and Spirit Flay, both quite useful powers. Flesh Rend deals damage while sliding an enemy around and debuffing their attack rolls; as a melee basic attack, it can be used on a charge, on an opportunity attack, or even as part of a leader-granted attack. Spirit Flay targets Reflex rather than AC (very accurate for a weapon attack), it targets two creatures, it deals solid damage, it dazes enemies, and it grants concealment; it is a fantastic package all around.
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Flesh-Rend.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Spirit-Flay.html

Gloom Pact hexblades also have Convocation of Shadows for free:
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Convocation-of-Shadows.html

For a level 1 daily attack power, we will pick up Hellfire Blast. It deals devastating low-level damage, particularly in conjunction with the built-in striker damage bonus of a hexblade.
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Hellfire-Blast.html
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>>81710094
Kill yourself
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>>81710105

For our level 2 utility power, three powers stand out. Wrathful Aspect buffs Intimidate outside of combat, and dissuades enemies from attacking the character in melee with ripostes of fire damage. Alternatively, Beguiling Tongue is a flexible power for boosting Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate. A third option is Ethereal Stride, which can be used to get into a good position during combat while buffing defenses, and to navigate obstacles outside of battle.
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Wrathful-Aspect.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Beguiling-Tongue.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Ethereal-Stride.html

So then, how does this character fight? They most likely open combat by using their Instinctive Flight to "super-jump" into a good position. They then activate Dragonfear, throwing enemies off-balance: they suffer -2 attack and grant combat advantage until the end of the user's next turn, so this character actually has two turns of combat advantage against enemies. The hexblade unleashes Spirit Flay against two enemies, an accurate and hard-hitting attack that dazes targets and grants the user concealment. While using Spirit Flay, they activate Guidance of the Past, for a little extra accuracy. Ideally, they also use Desert Wind Flurry of Blows for more damage and mobility.
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Dragonfear.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Spirit-Flay.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Guidance-of-the-Past.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Desert-Wind-Flurry-of-Blows.html
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>>81710112

All 4e characters start the day with 1 action point, and gain another action point after every two encounters in the day. Thus, if the character has an action point to spare, then during the same turn, they might blast two enemies with Echoing Dirge, or focus on a single enemy with Flesh Rend. Alternatively, if it is a big fight and they can catch multiple enemies, they could even bring out Hellfire Blast for a big blast of raw damage.
http://funin.space/compendium/glossary/Action-Points.html
http://funin.space/compendium/glossary/Milestones-and-Quests.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Echoing-Dirge.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Flesh-Rend.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Hellfire-Blast.html

On subsequent rounds, the character uses either Echoing Dirge or Flesh Rend as appropriate, perhaps Desert Wind Flurry of Blows if it has not already been used. Notably, they can actually charge with Flesh Rend, since it is a melee basic attack, in case they need to engage a distant opponent. If threatened by multiple enemies, they can throw up a Wrathful Aspect or escape with Ethereal Stride, if they selected either.
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Wrathful-Aspect.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Ethereal-Stride.html

Notably, whenever the character drops an enemy to 0 hit points, or has an adjacent enemy drop to 0 hit points (regardless of who did they deed), they become insubstantial and phasing until the end of their next turn. Insubstantiality halves all incoming damage, and phasing creatures can move through walls and other obstacles; it is great survivability and mobility.
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Convocation-of-Shadows.html
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>>81709906
If you devote 5,000 hours to martial training and 5,000 hours to mastery of magic you're going to be less capable than the people who devoted 10,000 hours into one or the other. This is common fucking logic.
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>>81710131


Outside of combat, this character has a racial +2 History and +2 Intimidate, and a total of six trained skills (one of which is History due to their Ghost of the Past theme). All 4e characters add half their level to all skill checks, even untrained, and each trained skill gains an additional +5 bonus. Thus, this character is no slouch out of combat, particularly with Dexterity 18 and Charisma 18. Guidance from the Past can buff a skill check outside of combat. Depending on their choice of level 2 power, Wrathful Aspect can boost Intimidate, while Beguiling Tongue can bolster Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate. Either way, the character is definitely a strong contender outside of battle.
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Wrathful-Aspect.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Beguiling-Tongue.html

I would say that this is a fairly cool and competent gish, with a varied playstyle. And this is just a level 2 character. They are not even a high-level character. 2nd-level gishes in D&D 3.5, Pathfinder 1e, 13th Age, D&D 5e, or Pathfinder 2e simply cannot match up to this hexblade's style and efficacy.
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>>81710144
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Every martial is a gish to an extend
otherwise explaine to me how barbarian can get angry enough to fucking fly, throw ghosts at people or stand alive despite being deep below 0 hp
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>>81709839
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>>81709839
Swordmage was good.

3.5 also has a fuckload of options for gishes; they are not t1 since t1 characters don't need to bother to fight, and a gish actually wants to fight, but they tend to be at least solid t3. Fuck, even the PF Magus is pretty nice. Multi/Dual classing in AD&D was also not that big of a downside.
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>>81709906
How do we stop the entitlement of gishfags?
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>>81710077
The problem is you're both a scalie (dragonborn) and an emofag (warlock)
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>>81709839
>why do Spellswords always get ruined by balancefags
Because nerds are eternally seething about the Complete Book of Elves.
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>>81709839
Someone who specializes entirely in martial or magical prowess will be better at the spellsword at their respective specialization. Spellswords are supposed to be shittier than an average martial at swordfighting and shittier than an average wizard at magic, its on the spellsword to be able to compensate for it by using the tools they have to their advantage just like any other person. Fuck off with your persecution complex you whiny bitch and get good.
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I have yet to see a system where gishes are bad. The only one that comes to mind is Dungeon World, but mostly because the Immolator feels more like a dump of every move that didn't make it into the other classes.
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>>81709839
A level 10 fighter/ level 10 wizard can beat a level 20 wizard or a level 20 fighter. What are you talking about?
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>>81710306
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>>81709839
2e D&D computer games handled them pretty well

the main thing is they shouldnt be half/half, they should be at least 75%/75%
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>>81717698
>the main thing is they shouldnt be half/half, they should be at least 75%/75%
This.
In systems like D&D where power dramatically shoots up every 4-5 levels, being 75/75 or even 80/80 is pretty reasonable compared to the 100/0 or 0/100 who is still going to fuck you up in their chosen focus.
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>>81712532
LOL no.
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>>81709845
It actually should be an arcing curve that bends upward. Someone who is 50% good at one thing and 50% good at another thing isn't 100% good overall. They are 50% powered for all of their actions, like an objectively worse character, because they don't use them both, they do either-or.
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>>81717698
I actually find that 3D Computer Games like Dark Messiah or Arx Fatalis handle them the best.
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>>81718242
In theory you're supposed to use the 50% to whatever the situation calls for, which overall makes you better. But in practice 50% spellcasting in a situation that calls for spellcasting isn't going to help.
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>>81718316
I like games that have subclassing mechanics. So you're still 100% of your main class, but also 50% of another.
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>>81717698
>>81717982
You know this could be solved if you just make class levels purchasable through XP. You're not overall level 10 with the next level at 20,000 XP or whatever. Your next level could be from a level 1 class, but it'd be far cheaper because you're not getting a whole lot. You could add some other stuff like buying feats with XP.

Obviously you'd have to design the system from the ground up to do this and balance level features from classes so you're overall encouraged to progress in a class instead of just take 1 in everything for easy levels.
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can't you just make them a blaster caster with stronger spells but they are all melee range? wouldn't that stand out enough?
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>>81718454
>You know this could be solved if you just make class levels purchasable through XP.
That would still produce a character 50% fighter and 50% mage.
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>>81709839
>who have to make it worse than mages and fighters?

Why should they be better?
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>>81718560
Not if they were increasing costs. A multi-classed character should overall have the same amount of XP cost in 2 classes, being about 6 or 7 while a solo class would be 10.
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>>81709906
>Most casterfags specialize in a specific field of magic
>Instead of specializing or taking the nonspecialized path I work in martial training
>Martials bitch that I can cast
>Casters bitch that I can kick their ass
>Neither can comprehend a balance between studies and fitness
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Is the mega autist 2hu fag? Why can't he be banned for avatarposting?
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>>81709839
Elf.
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>>81710144
This was adorable. Thank you.
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>>81710142
That's a really stupid assumption. If you learned math but not how to read english, you might not even know how to file your taxes. If you can dribble a ball but can't pass or shoot, you'll suck ass at basketball.

In a world where magic exists, you'd be retarded to think it's useless to physically capable people, and likewise dumb to suggest mages aspire to be cripples.
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>>81710144
Doing the lord's work out there, 2hu
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>>81721792
Let me put it this way: Medicine and law are very separate paths, but are both professional degrees. If you split your time between them, you're not going to be as good as someone dedicated to a single profession.
Being an NBA pro and being a brain surgeon are very different disciplines which both require dedication. I've never heard of a brain surgeon who is also a professional basketball player.
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i unironically like the idea of Spellsword and am perfectly okay with Spellsword being weaker than the pure classes.
How can I be the guy in the OP
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>>81722784
That is because brain surgeoning does not make you better at basketball.

But magic and being strong both make you better at fighting.
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>>81718454
This could also be solved by having a system that doesn't separate magic from mundane, given that it's a magic world, but I guess that's too hard for most people to understand.
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>Control + F
>4 hits on "Pathfinder" and one on "Magus"
Very good thread, you get a cookie. Yeah, if you pick the right version the magus can be based as fuck. Of course, a "true" gish is even better, especially depending on your alignment requirements. You could multiclass into scaled fist, paladin, sorcerer, and dragon disciple and grab unhindering shield and make something infuriatingly tanky but which is also able to disintegrate you.
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>>81722784
That is not true. A doctor who goes into law knows a lot more about treatments then a normal lawyer. Medical law and ethics is especially useful.

A spellmage should be basically better then mage at combat but physically weaker then a pure martial because they need magic to fight. A mage has more utility spells to make up for it.
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>>81710086
>No one wants to play in power fantasy, faggot.
says the cuck who has his dick flattened daily
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>>81709847
Making a setting with just that premise. It pisses me off that fighters can somehow lift their to resisting fireballs.
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>Why can't I do two different things in a system where I'm harshly restricted in picking one or the other?
This is the exact reason we say to stop playing D&D.
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>>81725032
You've never played modern DnD. Gishes are superior to everything except pure wizards depending on circumstance, while Martials are really good at one thing (if that) and fall apart really easily if they run against their niche.
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>>81709839
Why do people pretend like most games don't have balanced, easy solutions to this problem. Pathfinder, l5r, wfrpg, exalted, shadowrun, all balance magic and martial with one another just fine, in spite of taking radically different routes. The whole game of pf ended up balanced around 1/2 and 2/3 casters, l5r and shadowrun made magic fill a distinct niche or provide alternative path to similar abilities, warhamer made it very dangerous and easy to dabble in, but hard to master. And in exalted basically everything is magic, but sorcery and martial arts are both equally good skills for any character to pick up, or great focuses to define a character around.

It's basically just 3.5 and 5e that have a gish problem.
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the best way to be a gish is to just go 100% in on casting and then use spells to buff yourself or transform into a melee combatant.
you can true polymorph into a fucking ancient dragon and LARP as a fighter in melee all you want. But get the 9th level spells first.

Or play druid, but for some reason people don't consider wildshape to be a gish
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>>81725773

3.5 has duskblades
5e has paladins
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>>81709845
What the fuck is a gish?
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>>81727679
The duskblade was cool, but so much worse, even at sword fighting, than any full caster. 5e paladin is only good thanks to warlock, and even then not worth more than 7-8 levels. It's also telling that 5e's best gish is an archetype for wizard that doesn't give up anything meaningful.
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>>81728175

>The duskblade was cool, but so much worse, even at sword fighting, than any full caster.
I mean, yes, but everyone was worse at anything compared to a full caster in 3.5.
The duskblade was a solid T3 gish-in-a-can. Grab knowledge devotion, power attack and you are set. Bonus point if you convince your DM to let you research Shield and/or Wraithstrike to expand your spell list.

>5e paladin is only good thanks to warlock, and even then not worth more than 7-8 levels
Full paladin is still solid. While warlock is nice, he's far from necessary. Also Hexblade/Oathbreaker is just mean.
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>>81728394
Just because duskblade is easy, doesn't make it good. The whole point is that nothing compared to a full caster, duskblade was "tier 3" because it got to have some of the caster goodies. Its was just a martial that got wizard scraps. Compare to the the magus in pathfinder, which can combine martial level full attack damage with all forms of spellcasting using the same action economy from level 1. They still aren't as consistent as fighters, relying on limited resource expenditure to fight fully, and they aren't as utilitarian or efficacious in sheer magical might as a wizard, but they still can hold their own in the combat line and provide excellent support buffs and neither parent class can fill the same role better.

The only reason to take levels in paladin instead of something else is cha to all saves. It makes you more mad, doesn't provide much advantage without hexblade, and scales really poorly. Its power comes from charisma synergy. Again, it's also not a gish.
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>>81709839
>Skill 7, Stamina 8, Luck 9, Magic 5
>sword 2, wizardry 2, dodge 3
>talent is natural magic
>carry the biggest sword I can get my hands on
>grab a bunch of useful rank 1 spells, including strength and ironhand for bonus attack and damage
>laugh as I autopass casting rolls and match blades evenly with four goblins at once
>take the Ward spell so I can deflect arrows at will, fuck you ranger!
>hell, put 1 skill rank into minor magic and caster Pucker to silence the Sorcerer before I cut him in two with my greatsword
>dominate the world right out of character creation
>die to a crit because I only have 8 stamina
I regret nothing.
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>>81728727

>The only reason to take levels in paladin instead of something else is cha to all saves.
Both WL and Pal heavy work, but TBF my favorite build is Hex 2 / Oath 12 / Sor 4
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>>81709839
The Swordmage class exists in D&D 4e and is actually good. Great versatility and some of the best ability to control the battlefield. Teleport enemies, attack entire groups at once, and weave magical wards around your allies.
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>>81729051
>4e
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>>81728776
what system is this?
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>>81728923
If you actually have to play from level 1 to level 15-20, taking paladin just isn't fun, not to mention nothing of worth on offer after level 7 (take 8 for the asi if you need it). I'd also put oath of vengeance at the bottom of the power hierarchy, devotion is a better combat buff and a good defensive aura, ancients offers a huge buff to make up for no good channel option. All vengeance does is give you advantage against one enemy within 10 feet, which is cancelled out by the melee penalty if you're using eldritch blasts, and doesn't stack with the thousand other sources of advantage for melee. You also have access to the darkness/see in darkness trick of at-will advantage against anything that isn't a devil thanks to warlock.

I would say hexblade 5/paladin 8 and some combination of bard 1-3 for cutting words and more spell slots and fighter 2-6 for extra asi and action surge. But honestly, I've never played past level 14 in 5e, so I don't actually know.
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>>81724556
>he hasnt gained fire resistance from lifting
ngmi dyel
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>>81729202

Best oath is Oathbreaker (Cha to dmg at lvl 7)
Also once you go Pala 8, 3 more levels give you an extra 1d8 to damage, and 1 additional one an extra ASI.
Pal 12 is a good break off point.
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>>81729295
Nah, oathbreaker doesn't get any good use of channel and cha to damage is only for melee weapons, so much, much worse than eldritch blast. Bard and warlock levels will also progress smite damage more quickly than paladin levels, not to mention the warlock smite is objectively better. Even pal 8 is a stretch
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>Ahurr durr durr gishfags want to be better than fighter and wizard aherp aderp
The main issue of gishes is that game designers are too retarded to optimize their action economy, or too retarded to make the class varied, or simply hate gishes. Or all 3.

For example, Pathfinder Magus. Arcane Prepared Caster that can Two-Weapon Fight with sword and spell. Sounds good? Sounds like SHIT.
>Only proficient with light armor until mid levels, forcing Magus to be a dexfag
>Absolutely must max out dex to stay alive in a fight, because d8 HP
>Heavy Armor is arrives after PF society level cap
>It's useless anyway, since in order to survive to level 13, you had to be a dexfag.
>Since you're a dexfag, you gotta do weapon finesse.
>Since you do weapon finesse, you might as well pick one of those dex to damage feats
>Woops! Nerfed! No dex to damage feat is compatible with Magus's main way of fighting.
>Since you're a dexfag, no power attack for you.
>Since you had to max out Dex, your other stats are probably lacking, like con, or god forbid int.
>Since you had to spend feat taxes on finesse and shit, you lack essential spellcasting feats.
>Since you're locked to finessable weapons, with no bonus damage from stats or power attack, you must rely on magic to deal damage
>All of your 5 first level slots are now Shocking Grasp.
>5 times per day you can pretend that you are swinging a two-handed sword as a fighter.
>At -2 because you're two-weapon fighting with shocking grasp spell.

End result: Every single Magus plays exactly the same - shocking grasp dexfag. Class features force you to choose between no AC, no damage or Arcane Spell Failure. Casting a spell and stabbing a nigga as full actiton is pointless unless you're casting a spell that helps you stab a nigga harder, but then you're literally just casting a spell to pretend to be a fighter.

Now does that sound like a good class, let alone interesting gish? And people have the guts to praise it too.
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>>81730438
Your criticism are valid and I agree with them, but how would you fix it?
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>>81709906
Unfathomably Patrician
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>>81710144
Dammit 2hu you can just say that 4e gishes function out of the box and swordmages let you play with spells and swords at a balanced rate while doing your own unique thing (shielding or punishing, and being an absolute slut for teleports).

>>81710664
4e warlocks and 4e dragonborn were fun. But I mean, an elf swordmage or a human or half elf bard are perfectly fine gishes that just work from the getgo. 4e was very good at 'just pick a non-retarded race/class combo and you'll be fine' for non-charop/TheGuild style games.
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>>81730533
Out of all the things a gish should inherit from martials is proficiency list. Very few things allow a class to be made more varied than wearing something other than +4 ac +4 dex light armor and stabbing people with 1d6 toothpick. Arcane Spell Failure? Always 0%. Just slap a note that it only works if you cast out of Gish spell slots, so it's not some kind of cheesy 1 level dip.

Second, the way most people want Gish to be, the way it is most often portrayed, is that it is a toolbox character. Only absolute retard would say "I want to drop fireball on that motherfucker while I am in melee range with him", most want spellcasting to deal with varied conditions of the battlefield and enemies. His spellcasting should reflect that. Magus's Spell list is fine for that, he gets more spells per day than wizard, it should be completely fine to add more low spell level utility to that list and make gish the designated "solve bullshit" guy, like casting rope trick and something such, while letting wizard focus on all that DC-bypassing meta-magic abusing stuff.

Third, since we've deprived gish of ability to deal extreme damage/control with spells alone, his melee baseline should be at Ranger level. 1-6 spellcasting of utility and buffs is a very fair trade for 1-4 casting, chain of free feats and a slave animal. You might notice that too many gish classes have a feature that boosts their attack bonus and damage . Magus has it, Warpriest has it, Investigator has it. Just give that motherfucker full BAB, leave all the other autismal stuff out of it. Not being able to pull out a keen weapon out your ass is fair enough of a trade to just letting that cunt have full BAB.

If we sprinkle on top a warpriest's ability to cast (you) spells as swift action, we have a varied class that can be built different, and doesn't fall apart the second it can't cast, but also can't out-cast the wizard. What other classes have as features, it'll have as spells. Like Elder Scrolls protag.
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>>81730533
>>81731037
This especially allows this gish to be less INT reliant. Magus absolutely needs INT out the ass because without Arcane Pool, his accuracy is low and he has no bonus damage, so he needs all the Arcane Pool minutes he can get, especially if stacking special properties on top. And while you do get higher DCs and Concentration checks and skills out of this, it's largely wasted because you're 1-6 caster, and most of your slots are Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch, otherwise you explode into giblets.

The theoretical gish would be well enough served by 16 or even 14 INT just to gain access to spells, meaning he can have non-retarded STR, a bit of DEX and maybe even Con. Such class would be simplier to play, less reliant on micromanagement, won't require you to stick by a minmax build 100% or perish, and it'd be a much more sane and comfortable way to build Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster.

Would it be balanced against Magus? Against Fighter? Against Wizard? I'd say it'd be an improvement on Magus, but Fighter will still outdamage/out-strike the gish, and Wizard would still out-cast it, but neither will have the same varied utility. Arcane Orcale or Arcane Warpriest would be pretty sweet too.
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>>81730438
Fuck that, AC is useless, max CON and STR instead, kill enemies before they kill you. This is basic magus advice.
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>>81728727
But t3 is... fine? If you want a gish that competes with wizards, you will end up with a wizard with a sword, not a gish.
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>>81731343
>You're now THREE ability dependent
>None of your abilities are over +3 as human with 25 point buy.
>Your reflex score is rock bottom
>Your touch and flatfooted is rock bottom
>You're still 3/4 BAB class
>You're still d8 class, so your total HP is equivalent to a lazily built fighter.
>Who still has AC out the ass, more accuracy than you and more damage than you since you can't spell combat with a two-hander
Anon, in DnD you're supposed to play the guy who makes people slip on grease and fireballs them, not their victim. You're literally killable by a commoner with a bow.
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>>81731472
Not really. STR magus had been considered the better path for, well, forever. There's also a bunch of tricks you can do with archetypes, like taking hexcrafter for a touch cantrip, so you can spell combat without spending slots.

If you go dex magus, probably dip 1 level of Inspired Blade and Fencing Grace, or, if the DM thinks the hand is occupied (despite the ability explicitly saying it has to be empty, and you are not using it for somatics, since it has to be empty even if it does not have somatic components) during spell combat, just go with good old dervish dance.

You are just a fucking whiner.
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>>81732108
>archetypes, like taking hexcrafter for a touch cantrip, so you can spell combat without spending slots.
It's called Arcane Mark, and you don't need no archetype for it to work.
>If you go dex magus, probably dip 1 level of Inspired Blade and Fencing Grace, or, if the DM thinks the hand is occupied (despite the ability explicitly saying it has to be empty, and you are not using it for somatics, since it has to be empty even if it does not have somatic components) during spell combat, just go with good old dervish dance.
You're retarded, Fencing Grace was errata'd recently to not work with Spell Combat, so your misguided dip into Swashbuckler is utterly wasted. The only way that remains is to take a 3-level dip into Unchained Rogue.

>Not really. STR magus had been considered the better path
And of course you won't post build or elaborate. Lmao.
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>>81731168
Have you tried playing a cleric?
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>>81730438
Why don't they have unique spells that work on a different stat then int rather than using normal magic?
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>>81732684
Because INT and CHA are the stats least burdened right off the bat. Spellcasting keeps them relevant. For a few years it was possible to play a CON-casting Witch, and I believe it was deemed bullshit.
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>>81732512
I have. I also tried to play Warpriest, that's very close to what I am describing, but the entire god worship thing, and how your character's powers come not from study or training but by god fiat, which can be removed at will, doesn't appeal to me much.

One time I played Warpriest, he was a worshipper of an actual living goddess that walked the world and ruled the country, so it was a bit more entertaining.
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>>81709839
I imagine a spellsword the same as an arcane archer or gunmage in that they rely on magic for reinforcement and amplification. The arcane archer and gunmage rely on it also too speed up reloading such as having a charge already loaded in a pistol.
I can also imagine the spellsword using magic to help with travel such as reducing the burden of heavy equipment and supplies kind of like what I did with my spellsword in Oblivion.
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>>81709875
kek
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>>81732720
Yeah, I figured that'd be the issue, since it's close to the mechanics you described.
I could tell you to suck it up and accept that some power comes at a price, but it likely won't change the way your brain experiences fun.
Easy enough to homebrew an arcane version for an appropriate setting though.
I'd also consider letting someone play a bard with a different spell list (and reflavour performances and give them the counterspell stuff from the magician archetype or whichever it was) to emulate a spellsword.
Also, I think "you can ignore spell failure chance from light armour" should just be a flat reduction to the penalty instead. Feels dumb to completely ignore light, but be be completely hindered by medium.
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>>81709839
>why does it suck
Because games handle strength in a way which simply adding points to strength makes you as strong as a gorilla, completely natural with no magic involved ofcourse. Go fight that 12 foot demon and kill it with a single swing of your sword bro.
Anime tier shit. Anyone who wants to be more than a high end foot soldier needs magical assistance at some point, whether by divine intervention, own enhancements or super fantasy roids.
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>>81718242
>Skill 100%, +6 Profficiency Bonus to a thing.

>Magic 100%, +1d10 magic bonus to a thing.

>Hybrid 50%/50%, +1d4+4 bonus to a thing.

Just gotta find the elements and abilities that can facilitate synergy rather than expecting two very different methodologies to jive well right out of the box. It's all about finding ways to apply multiple tools in tandem. Maybe it'll take more time to set your endeavor up, maybe you need to find ways that your resources feed into one another, but it's hardly the zero-sum setup you describe there.
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>Enhancing your physical stats with magic isn't rudamentary basic magic that after a while doesn't even require an incantation

>There isn't a spell to synthesize what you eat in the most efficient process, and fine tune your own metabolic process

>There isn't a basic spell that increases your concentration and makes learning new things much easier.

>There aren't multiple power sources like ki, psi, and mana that have different applications and methods of cultivation

>Basic Town guard is equal to multi-dimensional being, with nothing actually making it so. Has a couple tricks compared to a reality warper. And said reality warper is crippled compared to a basic town guard for some completely unfounded reason.

Your setting is trash.
IRL, MMA fighters have more techniques than the average "martial" [i.e not a martial adept].
And more than a couple of them have fucking PHD's. A good half have been to college.
And then collegiate athletes and valedictorians COMPLETELY COMPLETELY invalidate the glass cannon idea.

Effort is simply not translatable to a TTRPG. Grinding doesn't have the same jenais se quoi, that it even does in a video game, let alone real life.


Manga Related has some of my favorite portrayals of a well trained combat mage.
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>>81725055
I played 5E for a few years because I befriended a new group and wasn't going to try to force something else on them (at least not initially). I outshone the party with my lore bard without meaning to, and likewise with my war wizard. I'll give you that paladin and bladelock are the best martials, although the bladelock doesn't feel like it has enough spells for the true Gish experience to me and pallys are just going to use their spells to smite most of the time. Gishes aren't superior to everything, pure martials are just shit by comparison. But we all know that becuase this problem is older than 5E and 5E didn't fix it.
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>>81710174
>explaine to me how barbarian can get angry enough to fucking fly, throw ghosts at people or stand alive despite being deep below 0 hp
he real fuckin angry
like
real fucking angry
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>>81733166
Anima: Beyond Fantasy is the closest I've found to doing this, and even it is far from perfect. Generally, the effort has to be on the player's part rather than the character's.
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>>81709839
just take rune knight, wild magic barbarian, bladesinger, or eldritch knight unless you're saying your DM fucks with the balance of those subclasses then I'd tell you get another DM that one seems like a dick
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>>81734033
That's actually quite true, Anima DOES have all three, right in the player's handbook.
But just as you said, the system could use some changes.

It might not be a bad one to write a revision for.
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>>81709839
All their non-combat abilities are awful
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>>81733127
>Just make Hybrids better statistically
>This is fine
1d4+4 is an average of 6.5 per check
Skill is static +6
magic is 5.5 average
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>>81731472
>>You're now THREE ability dependent
All classes are 3 ability dependent.
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>>81733108
What games allow you to kill any large creature with a single sword strike, without homebrew shenanigans or GM cutscene bullshit?
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>>81725773
>Pathfinder
>Shadowrun
>balancing martial and casters
Now that's a laugh.
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>>81736316
I'd argue that the only part of shadowrun magic is arguably their ability to summon shit and the turn to go spell. I guess they can also quicken spells but outside of intuition, charisma and willpower you can just cyber your stats up to be pretty high regardless.
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>>81736365

I'm quite literally playing a Mystic adept focused on health spells that turned out to be a better street sam than a standard street sam.
With extra utility on top.

Funny thing, is that I wanted to take a strong concept and intentionally play it in a less-than-optimal way (No offensive casting, possessing instead of manifesting spirits but with the additional custom restriction they cannot possess people or object unless a rune is inscribed on them), still turned out pretty fucking brutal in combat.
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>>81736543
Can you post your sheet?
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>>81724556
Since when has that ever been the case? Fighters get resistance to fireball because not stacking on resistances mid-game in the form of magic armor/charms is a death sentence.
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>>81709839
Listen here OP you're doing it wrong, you're supposed to use an image like this.
Anyway GURPS does spellswords just fine. In one of my games a player's arcane gunslinger could magically bounce bullets off objects, (giving a penalty to dodge them), magically increase the rate of fire of her guns and also make them magically armor penetrating, as well as some other tricks.
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>>81737089

Too much of a hassle, as i don't have it in chummer, but here's the basic idea:
>Dwarf
>High Str, Body, Wil, Int
>Low everything else (1 edge)
>Magic 8 (started with 7 with Exceptional Attribute, Initiated once)
>Low on skills, mostly focused on combat and spellcasting plus a couple important ones, low binding but i'm improving it
>Level 2 weapon focus, working on a level 4 spellcasting focus
>Almost all "increase attribute" spells (missing Str and Body) + Heal, Increase reflexes, Decrease limit and Powerblade (which i never used but it's there as a backup in case my axe is not within reach)
>Possession metamagic
>refluffed Bear totem (+2 soak and +2 to cast healt spells)
>Astral sight and a sprinkle of melee combat related adept powers, highlight being Heightened Concentration and 5 level of Adrenaline Boost
>Everyday mission carry: Axe (weapon focus) with low level bound fire spirit and kitted out full body armor (high level fake sin has all licenses, armor is styled as private security company and can switch between several predetermined meatspace and AR apperences). Gets swapped out for less intimidating outfits if the situation requires it, but the character is not happy about it and feels half naked.
>If expecting trouble: add an high level spirit possessing him (with metamagic so the character is still in control)
>If expecing a big fight: add a bound spirit to the armor (extra soak and sustains spells) and a precasted increase reflexes
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>>81736138
Name three abilities that a Wizard MUST have at 18-20 on campaign start. Now do the same with sorcerer. Now do the same with rogue. Now do the same with Fighter. Now do the same with cleric, now do the same with...
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>>81737721
>Wizard
Dex, Con, Int.
>Sorcerer
Dex, Con, Cha
>Rogue
>Fighter
Str/Dex, Con, Wis.
>Cleric
Str/Dex, Con, Wis.
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>>81737762
First of all, at 25-point buy, none of these builds are possible.
Second, not a single class feature of Wizard and Sorcerer requires him to have Dex or Con at 18 in order to function.
Third, don't try to be a funny motherfucker.
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>>81737797
>not a single class feature of Wizard and Sorcerer requires him to have Dex or Con at 18 in order to function.
Do you think casters never get attacked or something? Do you also think initiative and reflex saves are unimportant for them?
>>
you are all gay
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>>81737812
I think that all of this is solved with spells. Spells that you NEED AT LEAST 19 INT to access in full.

Meanwhile it's completely passable for Wizard to have 14 or 16 Dex, throw on mage armor and mirror image and stay in the back of the party who should protect him, dropping AoE and ranged touch attacks.

You're comparing this to a magus who's 2/3 BAB so he NEEDS 18 ST to hit BAB. You're comparing it to a magus in light armor with +0 Dex, so he NEEDS 18 Con because as a frontliner he will be attacked every round, and he NEEDS INT to have Shocking Grasp/Concentration checks out the ass to stand a chance to kill the enemy before he hits his pitiful 14 AC.
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>>81737812
Do you think those things aren't also the case for every other class?
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>>81737797
>Second, not a single class feature of Wizard and Sorcerer requires him to have Dex or Con at 18 in order to function.
In 3.5 a 15 in your spellcasting stat is sufficient to "function" (allows you to cast all spells without the need of magic items, with the level increases)

>>81737797
>Do you think casters never get attacked or something? Do you also think initiative and reflex saves are unimportant for them?
Casters can easily get away with 8 dex and be taking less damage then fighters, the only issue is the loss of effectiveness of rays, and even that s not that big.
Con is a bit more important, but anywhere from 12 to 16 is a good spot.
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>>81737836
If you "solve it" with spells then that's the only thing you'll be solving with spells. You'll be useless to the party. And no, Mage Armor and Shield don't "solve it."
>frontliner
Unless you spend the entirety of your time fighting in 3x3 hallways where the fighters can actually reasonably prevent enemies from reaching you, this term is completely irrelevant. Everybody will go for casters if at all possible since nobody wants to deal with those nasty niggers. The squishy caster survives by going first in the initiative order, laying down a wall or other obstruction or some obnoxious AoE save-or-suck effect, and then bearing the brunt of whatever little is left of the enemies while the DPSes mop up.
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>>81737908
Are you playing Basic DnD where Attacks of Opportunity aren't a thing or something? Lmao/
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>>81737935
>Are you playing Basic DnD where Attacks of Opportunity aren't a thing or something? Lmao/

>Implying he plays anything
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>>81737935
How does one attack of opportunity per round prevent enemies from attacking the casters at range or from approaching them without rubbing their ass against the warrior?
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>>81737970
>How does
>attack of opportunity
>prevent enemies
>from approaching
Whip out your rulebook and read about it, nerd.
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>>81737453
Resistance as in they have so much HP they can tank fireballs.
>>
Honestly most of these settings are flawed to shit.
>Gajillion ways to access magic
>Magic lets you do stupid op shit
>Commoners still till the soil and plant cabbages instead of casting a spell that just creates all the seeds, properly planted, and then magic boosted to grow super fast and super ripe.
>A lot of wizards meanwhile can literally asspull thorny animated vines that attack their enemies. Level 2 spell btw.
>Soldiers are just guys with swords and 'feats' like 'I can wear slightly heavier armored pants'.
>Meanwhile Magus can color spray an entire enemy squad to sleep and walk around stabbing them, unresisting, to death. Level 1 spell btw.
>Nobles have to do stupid shit like 'negotiating' with their diplomatic opponents.
>Meanwhile Sorcerer can cast a spell that turns their diplomatic opponent into stuttering imbecile autist that can't impress anyone.
In a setting with magic, if you aren't a gish, you're literally disabled. You're literally worse than a wizard's familiar, and it's a fucking monkey!
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>>81709845
And just like that, in the first post the OP was completely deflated.
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Fixed
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>>81730687
There cannot be a thread with 2hu where he doesn't samefag. I wish there could, but I guess there can't.
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>>81709839
>Take Paladin
>Make it an Int Caster
>Replace the "faith, morality, and healing" bits for something that makes them decent tank/controllers
Done.
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>>81710174
By being absolute shit at everything else
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>>81737976
hint hint, it doesn't.
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>>81739677
>Read the rulebook
Why did you fail at this simple step?
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>>81729152
Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2e, it's an old dungeon crawler based on those CYOA books.
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>>81709906
>half-ass everything I've done in my entire life
>act surprised when I get what I deserve
There, fixed it for you.
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>>81739677
Don't reply to nogames.
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>>81709839
At cc I give the players a list of single mechanics from each class and let them pick one. What tends to happen is the fighter types will choose "sorc-spells and casting but with a wizard spell list". The casters usually chose something to let them use other weapons, spellstrike, or a different casting type. Not perfect but the cleric wizard actually wasn't that broken next to the fighter farting cloudkill.
It isn't perfect but it's worked so far because my players aren't power tripping after a humbling encounter with color spraying bandits.
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>>81730438
Based.
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>>81740017
>Guy writes power fantasy blog.
>You proceed to vent about life failures.
Are you ok pal?
>>
Can we all agree that gishes are all just subhuman weaboos who just want to be animu swordsman and get buttmad when they can't.
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>>81746519
Shut up, faggot.
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>>81746540
>t. buttmad weaboo
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>>81721792
so your gish accountant/basketballer is both a half assed accountant and a half assed basketballer. sounds about exactly right. while the rest of the team was learning how to pass and shoot you were off learning maths. and when the rest of the accountants got around to english and tax forms, you were busy doing dribble drills. you have made his point most excellently, and without even realizing it. the assumption isn't stupid, just you.
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>>81724298
well yes. there is a very narrow area of synergy that the gish should excel at, but Op and the rest of the gish fags are arguing for that narrow area to be not narrow. in other words, they want their doctor/lawyer to be a great criminal trial attorney and a practicing brain surgeon at the same time.
>>
Gishes suck and the players who advocate for them suck. They should be banned from every game and their players should be beaten for being disgusting weaboos.
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>>81710144
Admit it, this was just an excuse to post Genshin art, wasn't it?
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>>81749514
He's the only one in this thread who posted something worthwhile.
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>>81750070
You clearly haven't read this thread.
Also, Chinese casino games suck extreme ass. Get better taste.
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>>81750187
Both of the posts above yours were 2hu, newfag. They just want more people to read all the stuff they spammed. Add it together and don't feed.
>Saving the post from page 10
>Sameposting is what he's best known for.
>both are awkward pseudo-praise/commentary on a barely-functioning-autists wall of text.
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>>81751988
He clearly plays games. You don't.
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>>81752011
This. She is the best poster on /tg/.
>>
>>81746519
>>81747975
You sound like a mega-ass faggot.
>>
>>81752210
>she



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