How do I build cool lore like Dark Souls?
>>81293073Dark Souls does a lot of things to make its lore interesting, but I think the most important thing it does is that it is very pervasive without being shoved in your face. The world you play in has been molded by the events and characters from the lore, but the game still centers on you the little guy and let's you engage with the story as much as you want.
Anybody who cares about the lore in Darksouls is a faggot.
Write vague bullshit that doesn't matter to what's going on about things and places the players will never interact with, and let the group do the heavy lifting by straight up making shit up.Don't get me wrong, I like Dark Souls. But the DEEP LORE meme is shit. It's not an example to follow.
>>81293073Dark Souls did it like this:>Show a normal world, normal sized people, stairs, trees>Show something abnormal, larger people, stairs or trees>Player will wonder why it is so>Have a cool answer that the players can find, dont hide it
>>81293073Lore in dark souls is a shitpost now taken seriously
>>81293073You read, you listen to music, you watch epic movies. You get inspired. And you set aside time to daydream.Listening to music and catching snippets of lyrics and thinking 'ow that would make a cool story/ monster / place/ event' or watching a movie and thinking 'hey that's a cool story but what if ____' and you reskin it and change it.You get enough of those discreet instances and they start building up to something on their own.
Something something vague as hell, berserk reference, something something poison swamp, moonlight greatsword, etc.
>>81293328>Have a cool answer that the players can find*come up with themselvesftfy
>>81293073The inspiration behind dark souls was the lead reading stuff like Lord of the Rings in English, when he didn't actually know english. The result was he felt the story had large chunks of context missing.Now, Dark Souls doesn't have some full design document with a full story we are missing parts of. They just write random things and toss them in without the expectation they'll ever elaborate. Now, there are proper storylines and lore in there, it's just inconsistent between when a plot thread does go anywhere and when it doesn't.
>>81293595Point is, they give you something for your interest
>>81293715They literally don't though.
>>81293630But it is all tied together thematically so provide the illusion of a consistent fantasy world. I think that's the take-home message here.It's fine to leave things up the imagination. It's even better most of the time, since few people are as creative AND as meticulous as Tolkien.Case in point, the original Star Wars trilogy felt like it took place in a much bigger, more complex and interesting world than the later trilogies that showed us that the actual 'galaxy' is much dumber, smaller and boring than what we all collectively imagined it to be based on the original trilogy.
>>81294118I think most of that is just down to authors in Star Wars not understanding sci-fi scale. Personally I felt that the prequels and side material worked. I think the sequels botched it, but I think it's possible to maybe 'special edition' the scale part of the series to work (though not the overall arc of the trilogy itself- I think they can only fix maybe 20% of that with the right editing).
>>81293073Part of how blood/souls lore works is primary in visual story telling. As you enter into the area you can see what is or has been happening and the more you pay attention to the little things the more details there are. This, coupled with lore snippets from random items you find, then you get a big though never fully complete image of the history of the setting.In a practical sense this allows for getting away with less details and improvising whenever shit had to be cut or re-made so while impressive it's really a matter of half slap-dashed lore subject to various issues with the game's developmentTL:DR - Be vague an let people assume what they want based on the bread crumbs you leave.
Dont know anything about dark soups, but…Pull random shit out of nowhere. Keep any stupid idea you have and elaborate on it until it makes sense. Criticize everything you like with the idea that “I could improve this if only I was a writer for them”
>>81293073Have an event in history, and pick out some objects that were instrumental to the resolution of that event. An immortal king was slain, what weapon slew him? The King Breaker is what slew the immortal king of Beltan. Note how it's called King Breaker, did it get this name before or after the king was slain? Was it a weapon made purely to kill an immortal?Someone had to make that weapon, the wizened old man who forges you a sword that can kill, not destroy, undead might not mention the King Breaker, but the fact he can make weapons that kill the unkillable will bridge the connection.What about where you found the sword? In sunken ruins? How did it get there? Did the one who slew the king venture into the ruins, or did the entire kingdom collapse into the sea upon the death of the king? What happened to its wielder?You accomplish this by going into Game Theory™ territory and making it canon.
>>81293595The specific example of the big stairs is answered, though. They're for the giants/gods.
>>81293073steal the shit you like from multiple different sources, put them together and think abot how they would interact or react to each other. Nothing is original, you can trace everything in dark souls to the references Miyazaki was inspired my, so don't feel bad for stealing ideas, everyone does it. Something that helps make a compelling setting is having a clear and thematic central tension. Dark sould is all about abandonment and decay, and people either struggling against it or surrendering to it. Think of something like that.
>>81293306This is the truth that the DkS lore faggots hate to hear.
>>81293073Start with your basic premise. The simplest way you can express the core idea. Then you add elements and consider how they would fit into the established world, rewriting/refitting items to make them make sense. Repeat until satisfied. Store for about a week in cold and dark conditions, re-read it again and fix things that sounds stupid on second look. Spoiler: A lot of things are gonna seems really shit on the second reading. Alternatively, give it to someone else with eyes and a brain and take their critique.
>>81297137>They're for the giants/gods.That's never actually stated though. It's inferred and generally agreed upon by the community, but the games never outright tell you that it's going on. The audience made the story up.
>>81298756>it's never stated, it is just inferred based on the information given>you know, the giant gods you see several times in the game>but players made it up thoBro, that's retarded. It's like saying the audience made up who dun it in a whodunnit just because they made the correct inferences based on evidence given.
>>81298781You see a lot of fucking mimics too, and there's just as much in-game evidence of them living in anal rodeo as there are for the giants.A whodunnit gives you all the clues you need and a payoff at the end. DS gives you vague mutterings about bullshit and leaves it at that.
>>81298756>actually, since nothing in the lore says its made that way because of giants, you can't assume it is made that way because of giants. Despite there being giants everywhere in said place.you're such a fucking retard.
>>81293073Make some backstory for your world then obscure the shit out of it. As long as 30% of your mysteries have actual answers if the player puts the time to figure it out then it creates the illusion of a fully flesh out world with the only thing stopping them from seeing it is putting in more effort and collecting more obscure clues. Best part is because 70% of the world has no concrete answers they'll naturally fill in the gaps with things they would like to see, giving each person their own subtlety idealised version of the world.
>>81293073There's 2 things that Dark Souls did/does>1 - The StoryThe writer was a Japanese dude who was heavily inspired by the berserk manga and had a fascination with western mythos. Dark Souls was his own spin on the Arthurian mythos, but through a lot of language barriers and all the cultural baggage we carry to actually understand shit. Westerners don't understand a lot of tales from that period because of the anachronistic lens and the poor records of how people lived and thought back then. Ref. The Green Knight as a great example that gave recent traction. People argue what the fuck it's actually about. Note that through all of this, Dark Souls the final product still has themes of cyclical reincarnation and fatalism, which are distinctly Eastern, and it was an japanese guy trying to recreate a western mythos!>2 The StorytellingOther anons have hit on it, but the gyst is this: come up with a creation myth, make a grounded setting with implications from that myth, make a problem. Then give players a problem, and slow drip the rest out of order. Also, monologue less. You should show a guy killed an angel not by letting the players see it, or fucking anyone talking about it, but monuments to the angel, and a bunch of bloody feathers in his boss room.
Almost everything good in dark souls is stolen from else where. It has big holes because there's no way to merge all the sources together so they just didn't. Miyazaki went to his designers and said he wanted an anime character in it and then they had to figure out how to work with that idiots ideas. It's not deep or cool, it's all stolen and you're left to write your own fanfiction between the lines. It's basically modern Warhammer. Everything is stolen but no one has all the sources and the fanbase is too shallow to know it.
>>81298946>Despite there being giants everywhere in said place.There's also demons, gargoyles, mimics, and a big fuck-off statue thing in a room it has no way of getting into, so I guess that means the stairs were built for them too. Just admit you can't show a single piece of definitive first-party canon evidence for your claim.
>>81299021>Gwynevere>Smough and Ornstein>The giant blacksmith>the giant guards everywhere>oh but these don't counts>never mind that there's a set of stairs for giants and another for human sized creatures>Or that there's huge doors for giants
>>81299067>GwynevereWasn't she an illusion? >Praise the chest!
>>81298961This, basically.Just make a backstory and connect some stuff to that. Indirectly if possible. That part has to make sense but doesn't need to be obvious, in fact less obvious is better. Extrapolate the rest from a mixture of the stuff and just plain fantasy or Sci fi tropes depending on what setting you use. NEVER tell the backstory straight up, and don't give enough hints to figure out everything, ever. Just let people find out things in their own. Also do not connect everything to the backstory and lore. Let some things, most things even, just be there. As long as some things seem to connect back to something, the whole thing will seem like a living, real world.
>>81299152If the illusion was made in her imagine, I assume the real one was huge too. Or was Gwynevere always a fake?
>>81299152The illusion is there because the real one quit, but statues and stuff were presumably made when the real one was still around.But hey, flow of time is convoluted, so there's always room for more speculation.
>>81299067>Still can't post actual evidence.Again, there's other monsters too. Were the stairs built for them too? The game doesn't say, so your entire argument is bullshit because you're basing it entirely on something the community just made up on their own.Also, it's not even consistent with the design. The lead-up to O&S's boss fight is just normal sized stairs. You'd think they'd put in big ones for the room with big dudes, but nah. Time is convoluted, I guess.
>>81299192>Was Gwynevere always a fake?Perfect example of the right amount of obfuscation. It's honestly something the writers never cared to actually address. Given that Gwyn's shameful tranny son was obscured by a huge tiddied waifu, she could have just been an apparition both of Gwyn's vanity and denial.
>>81293073Ok, here's the official step by step guide1. Read Berserk 2. Play Armored Core (preferably Last Raven and 4A)3. Copy Berserk as your setting but use random names from Armored CoreThat's it! That's the whole guide!
>>81299253Not the same responder, but to be fair to giantfag, giants play a pretty big role in the background of all three games.
>>81299021>definitive first-party canonOh so you're just autistic. It is inferred. It is not explicit. Why is this a problem? Nobody claimed it was explicit.
>>812992704A over just 4, or silent line? 4/4A has some wild parts>Burgers gtfo>White Africa>Your shields are killing you, and the planet
>>81293073It's word salad.Something something fire dark knights lords kings corruption dragons sword ember hope time broken swallow vale lost undead miracle ruin chosen ancients world ending.
>>81293073>How do I build cool lore like Dark Souls?Consider this: the Dark Souls lore is fascinating, but only because it was made with the internet "community" in mind. It's the right amount of vague to be nothing more than noise on its own but enough to excite a community of fans to wonder what everything means. They put a few visual cues that suggest something without explaining it directly, that aspect is really well done. They really do think a lot about environments. But I imagine that you have concluded that the lore in Dark Souls is really cool after watching a YouTube explanation of it. That's not the DS lore that you're looking at. The DS lore on its own is boring. Without the YT people explaining why it's so cool there wouldn't be much to be fascinated about.
>>81299273So does the Furtive Pygmy, and we get fuckall about him.>>81299291>It is inferred. It is not explicit.That's exactly what I've been saying. I just think the game shouldn't be praised for DEEP LORE when the audience has to make things up about the story.It's like watching a few scenes of a movie, writing fanfiction with your friends, and the directors get an award for best story based solely on what you made up.
>>81299258Gwyndolin a cute and I will shank anyone who says otherwise!
>>81299373It's not exactly made up though. These are simple logical jumps. Big stairs with little gimp human stairs to the left & right. Maybe giants used the big stairs. There's certainly plenty of giant dudes with big halberds chilling in Anor Londo. You're just autistic dude. You equate it to baseless conjecture for no other reason than the fact that you never played through the game solo & base your opinions on people making lore videos, the very same people who you deride in your post.
>>81298756There are giants in the area with the giant staircases. It doesn't get much more clear than that without treating the audience like retards.
>>81299537Only a few things are outlined this way in DS though.
>>81299582He wants to be treated like a retard in practice because he is one, but doesn't want to be called one, so he's insisting that non-retards don't get it either.
>>81299537>>81299582There are big gargoyles in the area with the big stairs. Therefore, the gargoyles lived in the city too. You literally can't prove me wrong.
>>81299598Yeah since das1 is a half finished game that got pushed to release, that's obvious. They did well with what time they had though. I'm not even a lore buff in the slightest, but go on. List some of these things that aren't 'outlined this way'.>>81299637Why would I want to? It's entirely possible. Only their their airdrop of the player to anor londo and item descriptions(I don't remember any) give us anything else to work with in DaS1 as far as I know.
>>81299712>Only their their airdrop of the player to anor londo and item descriptions(I don't remember any) give us anything else to work with in DaS1 as far as I know.And, again, that's my point. There is not any kind of story beyond snippets of information and inconsistent environmental hints. Anything beyond that is basically fanfiction created by the community, which is worthless.
>>81299774>basically fanfictionAgain, didn't play the game, didn't come to your own conclusions, didn't read item descriptions. Likely smoothbrained. Feel free to keep watching memetubers & accepting normie takes as 'established lore', it sure is easy to criticize that way. But champ, that fruit is so low hanging, I'd suggest wiping the shit off it before eating.
Make a simple story. Divide it up into bits and pieces. Add rumors. Focus in on certain characters while giving few details on certain other characters. Instant Dark SoulsThe most interesting thing DS did was incorporate a lot of weird random bullshit you can only read about in a few sentences. Shit you may have even forgotten about. Like how Smough ate people, Gough was blinded by racist nobles, Painting Guardians have no clue what the fuck they’re doing anymore, Allfather Lloyd (of the Lloyd’s Talismans) is Gwyn’s “uncle,” Way of White sends troublesome clerics to die, etc. All that stuff is the cool glue that holds the DS world together. Dont be afraid to just throw in a fuckton of little details and see what sticks.
>>81298881Though we have no evidence of mimic based tool use, and the architectural style seems to match the stylings of the giants rather than the mimcs.What you are giving me now, is, essentially, "if you guess the whodunnit before you get the answer, you're just making it up"Let alone the whodunnits I've read where the villain gets away and it's entirely on the audience to figure it out.
>>81299598Ceaseless discharge being the brother of the witches of izalith who fucked up and dropped his orange charred ring and turned in to a lava monster is also everything but explicit.
>>81293073Make an entire extensive world, or possibly several separate self-contained worldsThen cut like a third of that contentVaguely string together all the bits you still have, pretend that everything actually belongs together in a cohesive world, and let the players' imaginations do all the heavy lifting.
>>81293630It wasn’t LotR he would read. It was these British print dark fantasy CYOA pulp books. I forget their name, but I did look them up.
>>81293595>this is you’re brain on VAX-MAXcringe and retard pilled
>>81294290This.It’s literally dungeon building.I don’t understand how people miss this.
>>81299859>can't refute the argument so defaults to URRRRR YOU DIDN'T PLAAAAYI accept your concession.
>>81302688tha, but you got bodied son.
>>81302688Take the L you massive faggot
>>81306224>>81310160>n-n-no you!Lorefags on suicide watch because they got caught lying.
one advantage dark souls and the like have is their visual component. you can imply a lot of story in just a visual that would take a lot of time to describe, which sometimes you just cant do running a game. halfway through describing anor londo you'd have players get bored and try to burn it down or something.
>>81311194thats what the archers with the spear-sized arrows are for, anon! just violently attack your players from outside their range when they dont sit still long enough for you to finish your moody lore-ridden description of the place!
>>81293073Be pointlessly vague because you don't actually have any lore written, but toss in evocative adjectives to make it sound like you do, and then just use whatever imagery you think looks cool and is vaguely visually consistent.You'll convince a lot of troglodytes you have deep lore where only shit exists
>>81311256oh also dont forget to have an npc laugh for like 30 seconds after saying some worthless cryptic nonsense that does not help anyone at all, and the players have to wait till theyre done before they can move
Describe things vaguely, with the occasional reference to something else. But perhaps...?
>>81293264filtered hardi bet you disconnected on invaders
>>81311256>Be pointlessly vague because you don't actually have any lore writtenHonestly this. After that Evangelion interview I've concluded that the Japanese are the masters of sweeping shit writing under the rug thanks to flair and knowing that their audience is retarded.
>>81311256>Be pointlessly vague because you don't actually have any lore written, but toss in evocative adjectives to make it sound like you do, and then just use whatever imagery you think looks cool and is vaguely visually consistent.In no way describes Dark Souls
>>81293073A big mistake made when doing souls like is making the story itself as vague as the lore. But Every games story is really straight foreword, players are told at the start of DS1 what happened, and how it is now, and then you are given a goal, what is vague is what happened between the origin story you hear and now. The key is then using visual story telling to help inform the players of what happened.
>everyone says the lore is vague and confusing >play the game >literally every major plot point is directly stated to the player and the only vague thing about it is the game doesn't dump fifty paragraphs about every minute thing NPC's sayExplain
>>81302688Anon. I'm not even the guy that you're arguing with, but you're being so unreasonably stupid that you have caught my ire.If there is something sized for giants. And there are giants.Then the odds are it was made for giants. This is basic inferencing the likes of which you get taught in high school so you can read things that aren't children's books. The only reason it isn't spelled out for us is because it would make most functioning human beings feel condescended to.
>>81314098Odd that he's chosen this point instead of another since this one requires basic problem solving. It's not like trying to figure out whey Havel is in his tower which requires a few more steps in logic.
>>81299712They're not really gargoyles, they're called Bat Demons. Those spears they wield are made from the bones of other demons and I think they're the only demons in the game that can wield lightning. So, not a lot. But enough to make some inferences about them.
>>81314098>If there is something sized for giants. >And there are giants.>Then the odds are it was made for giants.There's big gargoyles and demons too, so the stairs might be for them instead.
Become a famous artist/author etcMake settingDeliberately leave answers out of the settingYour fans interpret this as 'deep lore', and not laziness or willful emission
>>81312208It’s not really vague and confusing so much as it’s just presented in a fun way. I particularly liked the item descriptions and I read the description of everything I picked up.
>>81293073WeedRead medieval litListen to symphonic black metal
>>81316297>WeedHe said cool lore, not some incoherent rambling nonsense that you only thought was brilliant because you have drug induced brain damage.
>>81316163Is it the area where they live in/originate from? The area where they build shit?If it isn't, then it wasn't meant for them, simple as. This problem requires using no more than one(1) wrinkle in your brain to solve, and I know you have one somewhere in your head.
>>81316843>Is it the area where they live in/originate from The area where they build shit?>If it isn't, then it wasn't meant for them, simple as.Okay, cool, so you admit that the "giants lived in Anor Londo" thing is complete horseshit that was made up by the community and isn't canon. Because the answer to both those questions is a big unknown as far as the game's concerned.
>>81311003>Literally lying about what happened in the argumentlol
>>81316517You need to smoke more.
>>81316297>DUUUDE THE EMBERS>I'M GONNA REKINDLE BRO>BONGFIRE LIT
>>81298946Welcome to cringe philosophy
>>81299360Is this bait or are zoomers actually too adhd, autistic and gay to think of cool reasonings and theories in their own head about lord without some YouTube faggot explaining it to them...
>>81317435Guess why YouTube faggots explaining things exist
>>81299774>Anything beyond that is basically fanfiction created by the community, which is worthless.Retard.>scientific theories are worthless because they are just fan fiction created and not able to be definitively proven even if all evidence points towards it!Are you actually this stupid? You can’t prove that their isn’t a gay alien named bob at the center of mars’s core; but all evidence points toward that not being likely, so you can Safeway say for sure that there is not one there, it’s a very very safe guess to make, that I would say it’s more of a guess and that it’s a fact with a 0.000000000000001% chance it could be wrong, but so small that it’s really not worth worrying about. It’s like living your life and being worried that a meteor will kill you.
>>81317484>HURR DURR RETARD SCREEEEE!Not an argument.
>>81293073Tons of Soulsborne does lore via breadcrumbs. You typically know events that happened but rarely the motives and all the details. Much of the lore is in item descriptions but even they only go so far. Plenty is left to interpretation and imagination.
>>81317125That's a disingenuous take on my words and you know it, you fucking idiot. The giants/gods/larger than usual humanoid analogue and I just realized. No human being can be this absolutely stupid on such a fundamental level. Good bait, anon. Well played.
>>81317528Anon, you've been a retard. It's fairly simple.
>>81293073Pretty sure just being vague and edgy. Everything else is just details, you go and you write a piece of information about something, make it real grim but don't give it any reasonable context or explanation. The minds of the players will do the heavy lifting for you, they will try to connect dots that don't exist. If any of those theories strike your fancy you just add them in the next game, most of them will be mind blown or happy they were able to solve a puzzle that didn't exist in the first place.It's not bad design desu at least not for a video game like Dark Souls, a game that is still focused on it's actiony gameplay. More power to them.
>>81318792>>81318808>can't come up with proof because, surprise, there is none>I'M NOT WRONG YOU'RE STUPID WAAAAAAAAAAHAs expected from lorefags. Your fan fiction isn't real. Get fucked.
>>81293630>Now, Dark Souls doesn't have some full design document with a full story we are missing parts of.Pretty sure FromSoft does have lore bibles for all of their games, just with no intent to release them
>>81293306Something tells me you can't sit through a gothic novel.
>>81319316>noooo the giants don't live in the giant sized place that matches their stylelol
>>81319316>Still hasn't accepted his LWhat a retarded nigger you are
>>81319316Different anon here.I'm going to take this from a different angle. Your right you can not objectively say the giants lived there. But that's ok Dark Souls lore isn't good because of hyper fleshed out world building but because what's there is able to stoke the imagination and allow people to figure things out.I personally value getting people to think, and doing so by creating a bunch of pieces and letting them connect the dots themselves is a more worthwhile endeavor. Therefore I think the dark souls is a better story than idk Mistborn or something because it gets people to think and come to their own conclusions.Ultimately that's my taste on the matter and you have yours but to write off something just because it doesn't fit into you preconceived value system comes across to most as immature even if I'm 80% sure your just continuing this argument to farm outrage (you)'s.Even still all your doing at this point is stirring a fight that makes people feel worse and has no value for anyone.
>>81319316Hey Man,Anor Londo is the City of Gods. Since yo meet gwynevere and Gwyndolin and even can find the Tomb of great lord gwyn, we can asume the lords are meant with these "gods"There is a Giant Smith in Anor Londo. In fact, probably the last Kindhearted soul left in anor londo.We can even confirm this Giant lived there for a long time since when talking to Gough, one of the four knights of gwynn, he remembers the giant smith and hopes he is doing all right.Oh yeah, and also Gough is a giant himself.So what we can say is that Anor Londo was created by lord gwyn and the Lords, but they lived at least in peace with Giants, who were also welcome in anor Londo.Some additional minor evidence is that the entrance to Anor Londo through Sens fortress is also defended by Giants aswell as Pictures of Giants Next to Humans/Lords are shown Hanging arround in the inner rooms of Anor Londo.Is all this still a Fan theory to you?
>>81293073>pick a fantasy franchise you like, in Miyazaki’s case it was Berserk but you’re doing your own thing so you can pick your own obsession>shamelessly steal from it aesthetically and tonally all the time, even when it doesn’t make sense, especially when it doesn’t make sense>cobble together a world after leaving fantasy movies on in the background for several weeks without ever giving them your undivided attention>write a detailed creation mythos and have the people who took part in that creation mythos show up only as enemies>make a few important sounding people and attribute various things to them, have half of them never show up and the other half show up to be helpful at some point, these are your black iron tarkuses and big hat logans of the world>have 9/10ths of characters end ever conversation with an uncomfortable chuckle
>>81322894>shamelessly steal from it aestheticallyberserk stole every "iconic" thing about it from Western media.
>>81319316just how american are you?
>>81293073>sibling incest>mad king>white hair>dragonsThis is how I Targaryen.