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Grappling is unrealistic outside of mixed martial arts hema competitions, there has never been a situation in actual war where grappling was ever useful in actual combat whether through duels or mass combat. Why do we insist on adding grappling rules in games?
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>why have rules for punching people when using weapons is better
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>>79730150
Because some games don't autistically adhere to reality, in case you hadn't noticed.
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>realistic
>unrealistic
fucking kill yourself
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>>79730150
that picture combined with your post tells me you don't like grappling because you have a fear of getting raped
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>>79730150
1. Most games aren't about war or duels at all, they're about murderous cave explorers or space autists
2.The duelist and tourney fighter Jack Laling won most of his recorded duels via a combination of pollaxe and throwing the opponent to the ground, i.e. grapplijng
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>>79730150
Tavern brawls
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>>79730150
>people still reading after he said hema
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>>79730150
>in actual war
Do you frequently play games where you're in a full on war or something? Most games I've played and read about are a group of murderhobos fighting dirty against roughly the same amount of enemies.
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>>79730276
What's a hema? I assumed he just had a stroke midsentence
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>>79730168
Even the ones that do, like BRRAP based systems, grappling is especially useful since in, say, Call of Cthulhu you can use it to hold down a cultist while your buddies kick the shit out of him. Or do more invasive things, which is why I no longer run CoC when only the guys showed up for game night.
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>>79730150
>there has never been a situation in actual war where grappling was ever useful in actual combat whether through duels or mass combat
Bullshit
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>>79730150
First of all you're wrong
Second of all wrestling is cool and real and you are fake and gay
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>>79730298
LARPers
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>>79730276
Some people aren't bad faith retards who actually have an attention span and want to have discussion.
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>>79730298
People reading some old european manuals and bullshitting their way into a martial art...so the same as most "martial arts" but not based in China
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>>79730298
Historical European Martial Arts, I think.
I think there are a lot of cool things associated with their philosophies on fighting and technique that would benefit systems if only they would properly represent them mechanically, but they aren't the only things that can enrich a combat system, nor should a system be berated just because they aren't featured.
They also shouldn't be used to appeal to realism, whether you oppose or support their inclusion, despite their practicality or lack thereof, considering many TTRPGs don't cling to realism or use that as a selling point.
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>>79730460
Song of Swords tries to get the most HEMA-y and honestly it kind of suffers for it. Mythras remains the superior system for sword autism.
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>>79730460
Speaking as a guy who's taught HEMA for a decade now, some realistic games are nice, but not every game should try for that. There's enough space for everyone, and most people will be satisfied with slightly different mechanics for parry/riposte, counter attacks, and dodges. Mechanics are only representations of the concept, not an exact simulation.
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>>79730150
>Grappling is unrealistic outside of mixed martial arts hema competitions, there has never been a situation in actual war where grappling was ever useful in actual combat whether through duels or mass combat.
Dueling is a controlled sporting event and no adventure takes place on a battlefield. It's perfectly reasonable for fisticuffs to get involved in a skirmish fight-to-the-death scenario.
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>>79730196
I was going to guess op took that freebie mma/bjj class and got his fat ass handed to him by some 145lbs scrawny kid who kept choking him out and sweeping him everywhere and now is here to talk about about how deadly "real" martial arts are.
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>>79730531
>Dueling is a controlled sporting event
In the high middle ages, maybe, but later on they were proper trying to kill each other
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>>79730150
>there has never been a situation in actual war
Trench warfare was some grisly close-combat shit. At some point not even trench axes have enough space to swing so your only choice is to hold the other guy down so you can put a good hit on the back of their neck without giving him a chance to aim his shotgun at you.
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>>79730150
Most systems don't simulate a rank and file battle in a war though. In small group combat grappling most assuredly happens. Just look at how people naturally conduct themselves in street fights. Their instinct is to overwhelm and manhandle their opponent.
There's also the issue of what happens if the rules aren't there. What if a player asks if they can grab the goblin by the throat and slam him on the ground? What if someone wants to subdue an adversary without causing the harm knocking them out would do?

Are you seeing the problem with your logic? I know the answer is no because you're just a (you) fag, but I've already typed this out.
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>3 people fighting in a field
"NOOOOOO THEY HAVE TO BE USING MILITARY TACTICS"
feck off
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>>79730554
>but later on they were proper trying to kill each other
People essentially try to kill each other in a Boxing match too. They still follow their established rules for the most part anyways.
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Grappling the other guy so you can hold him down and jam a dagger in his visor is one of the best ways to handle a man in full gothic plate armor. Most weapons needed significant leverage or free wind up time for a massive overhead swing to effectively take someone out, and the only way you'll get either is to keep the other guy down.
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>>79730627
using military tactics would make it more realistic.
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>>79730867
>anon gets in a fight
>Now according to military tactics, what I should do i-
>opponent tackles him, pins him down, and starts using his head as a punching bag
Nice realistic tactics you got there, lmao
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>>79730294
Anon, you forget realismfags haven't so much as played a game.
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>>79731090
Or done much realism
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>>79730294
>>79731090
>>79731110
realismfags don't exist in real life they exist in realism life
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>>79730150
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>>79731122
That's actually as good way to put why realismfags are generally retarded.
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>>79730150
There's never been a situation in an actual war where a guy was fighting a dragon either. Or anything that wasn't humanoid, horse, or dog shaped.
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>>79731524
am i a joke to you?
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>>79731543
but we lost the emu war
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>>79730150
how many RPG campaigns are you a foot soldier fighting on battlefields?
In my campaigns so far my players have never been in such a role to even consider your point about "actual war".
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>No one has ever gotten the upper hand in combat by grabbing someone else
this is what you wrote you big dumb idiot
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>>79730150
Ringen. Armor was nearly impenetrable, so a popular method was to grapple them to the ground and put A dagger through the eyeslit.
It did happen, retard.
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>>79731886
>Armor was nearly impenetrable
A lance, pollaxe, or cannonball could do it, as could a handgonne in the armpit
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>>79731911
Yeah, but if you didn't have field artillery, good aim, or a poleaxe (based, by the way), grappling was a decent method to defeat armor. Just because it wasn't the only way doesn't mean it's useless.
But yeah, I did over emphasize the power of plate armor. Sorry.
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>>79730150
[Citation needed]
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>>79730474
You're wrong about that. Mythras is worse than GURPS Low-Tech Martial Arts, which is worse than Song of Swords at sword autism
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>>79730150
What I did to your mother last night was unrealistic.
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>>79731140
>He thinks fighting manuals reflect reality.
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>>79732045
>You're wrong
Oh shit, what do I do now
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>>79730150
Yes but it was for dealing with full plate armored foes. Ping them and then stab them with made for use daggers like a rondel dagger.

It was also used in trench fighting and in naval boarding actions. Grappling was never anyone's first pick for how to deal with a foe but it did come up.
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>>79732541
>book written by people who fought don’t reflect real fighting
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>>79730150
Because people forget the ground is harder than a wrestling mat.
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>>79730150
This is my free hand.
This is my dagger.
You are in a heavy suit of armor with small slits.
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>>79730373
>The op is a exemplar of a bad faith position
P-people that won’t engage are acting in bad faith!
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>>79730150
1) false
2) it's fantasy
3) lethal armed combat encounters are supposed to be a part of the game, not all the game
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>>79730150
While grappling is very dangerous in self-defence or military situations (mostly because it severely compromises your ability to engage other opponents or withdraw if the situation becomes more dangerous) it actually does have a few niche uses.
1. It *can* be less lethal than striking or using weapons - making it a good choice for capturing enemies alive or subduing a mind-controlled friend.
2. It's the single most effective way to deal with a heavily armoured opponent without recourse to highly specialized (and usually clumsy) weapons.

The *way* people grapple in MMA/HEMA would probably get them killed in a real fight, but in principle it does have its uses.
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>>79734217
By actually engaging in discussion, you are not only being better than OP, but turning his shitty thread into something worthwhile.
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>>79730150
Combat grappling was considered sufficiently important that Roman, Japanese, Chinese, Medieval Western European and Mongolian soldiers practiced and trained for it.
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>>79736292
People in martial arts usually grapple because they are in a duel and are confident they can win a grapple more handily. Very few people grapple in a melee with multiple opponents.
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>>79730150
>there has never been a situation in actual war where grappling was ever useful in actual combat whether through duels or mass combat
Go fuck yourself
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>>79730150
Pic related for your """problem"""
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>>79732699
they were books written for effette nobleman with enough money to buy useless shit
fighting manuals were the fedora wearing ninja larper "how to fight with a katana" books of their day
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>>79730150
Nevermind there have been multiple situations in Afghanistan and Iraq where cqc occurred, nah, grappling never happens. Dumbass.
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>>79730150
Grappling was a legitimate way to kill a person in a full plate as it allowed you to stab them in the gaps between plates or in the visor with a dagger.
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>>79730150
if the romans were so autistic about legionaries keeping their heads and beards shaved my guess grabbing them was a thing
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>>79736560
Most of that was for physical conditioning and to instill confidence (The same reasons 'Combatives' are taught today) rather than any expectation that it would prove useful in and of itself.

>>79736671
Ideally, but combat can be messy. One of your opponent's buddies might join in while you're choking him out OR the opponent might pull out a knife shank you in the kidney while you're applying a submission hold.

It has its uses, but is always a high risk except in controlled scenarios like sparring or sporting events.
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>>79730150
>there has never been a situation in actual war where grappling was ever useful in actual combat
I can't believe that's true you're saying in the entire history of combat no one has ever tried to grab their opponent
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>>79730150
my setting's world works on WWF physics so whenever people get into unarmed combat suddenly shit that would never work in a fight in the real world works, like picking up someone for a piledriver or vertical suplex without their cooperation.

there's even a feat you can take that lets you "hulk up" during a grappling fight so you can make your Hogan/Cena style comeback. And any remotely elastic surface works like ring ropes where if you whip someone into them they will rebound unless they make a roll to stop themselves or duck your clothesline or whatever.

also stomping your foot when you punch makes a punch stronger its totally not so you are making a sound when intentionally pulling your punch so it doesn't hurt okay.
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OP has never been in a fight
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OP has never played a single game.
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>>79732541
>He thinks he knows better than fighting instructors who lived when these tactics were actually in use.
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>>79730449
Except that HEMA is completely practical. While chink martial arts aren't.
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>>79730355
HEMA isn't LARP seeing as the people doing it don't have an imagined persona or role.
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What a fucking retarded thread
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>>79739949
oh, this is a mugging? Let me break out my flamberge, gimme a sec
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>>79736836
Says the person who has never touched a weapon in his life.
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>>79739973
No, let me use my ringen experience to slam you to the ground.
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>Play Exalted
>Grappler
>My entire turn is just picking someone up and then slamming them down on sharp objects to impale them
>If I can't find something sharp, I just spend a turn beating the piss out of my target while an ally breaks something nearby to make it sharp terrain
It works well.
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>>79732699
Reminder that ending someone rightly was in a real fighting manual.
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>>79740027
HEMA also teaches proper footing, agression, and other techniques which help in fights.
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>>79740065
That move is more of a distraction meant to give you a chance of closing in onto your opponent.
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>>79740104
>I'm going to distract my enemy by disassembling my fucking sword and praying that he doesn't kill me while I'm doing this retarded shit
There is literally no justification for it. Combat manuals lost all credibility because this shit exists.
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>>79739905
>>79732699
all those manuals did was give nobles an excuse to be gay with one another and /tg/ isn't gay right?
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Medieval combat manuals were the equivalent of this thread.
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Like freakshit, it's a good way to filter out That Guy neckbeards.
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>>79731969
>>79731911
Speaking of handgonnes, is there any precedent for them being used in point blank ranges or to clobber people with em? These things look like they could make good solid clubs in a pinch.
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>>79731911
>pollaxe
I remember reading an excerpt from somewhere about how two knights hit each other in the helmets with poleaxes repeatedly and would keep getting back up.
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>>79731577
No anon, we won. The humans lost.
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>>79740448

Up till the 19th centrury, and the development of repeating pistols. Cavalry doctorine with was to press it to the chest of the opponent and fire.
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>>79730150
Historically, grappling was the best way to deal with foes in full harness.
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>>79740156
Ending him rightly is in the same category as that flyer in the food court claiming to be able to teach you the ancient art of ninjutsu from a platinum belt 8th ranked master for only three easy payments of 19.99.

There is literally nothing new under the sun. We've found leather handle covers on zweihanders with the smith's advertisements on them. The Romans set up a series of noticeboards on their roads and then took them all down because they had nothing but shitposts and intentional misdirection for laughs. The ruins of Pompeii have graffiti that literally includes multiple "for a good time, contact X", along with tags and attempts to shame public shitters. Human nature does not change.
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>>79730150
>is unrealistic
So is magic and dragons
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>>79744854
Do not forget literal shitposting from Pompeii in the form of graffiti that says "X defecated here".
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>>79744854
And a merchant named Ea-nasir is one of the most well understood individuals of the ancient world because he kept immaculate care of all the cuneiform complaints and hate mail he got for his bad business practices, everything from sub-par metals to misrepresented real estate, all neatly arranged at the back of his house to be found by archeologists millenia later.
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>>79740851
But weren't Handgonnes matchlocks? Seems like it wouldn't really be possible without being gutted before the match burns down enough to fire
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>>79745122
Not even that. A handgonne was just a scaled down cannon with no actual firing mechanism so you had to hold the weapon in one hand and the burning match in the other.
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>>79730150
Counterpoint: Shut up
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>>79730150
Because grappling is cool
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>>79730150
Alexander the Great, possibly the most renowned and accomplished military warlord until Genghis Khan, nevertheless also fought countless unarmed duels, typically killing his opponents (as was appropriate given the common rules of dueling at the time).

Also, having never even seen "actual war" first-hand, you don't have the first idea what you're talking about.

Finally, most games are neither about duels not mass combat.
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>>79730150
>there has never been a situation in actual war where grappling was ever useful in actual combat whether through duels or mass combat
Then why did the Greeks all practice Pankration as part of military training?



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