Why are fantasy settings more popular amongst players, worldbuilders, tabletop fans in general, than scifi? Why don't humans want to explore the stars anymore?
>>78970336sci-fi is hard, fantasy is easy
>>78970336Like >>78970369 said, and you've also got to keep things much more consistent because the people that tend to gravitate towards scifi are also the kind of people that want that bit of hard realism in their game. This adds another layer of fact checking and ways to autism your way through stuff.I enjoy scifi, a lot, but sometimes I don't want to have to remember to do the legwork and blanket-fuzz every camera and recording device in a three block radius, scrub my metadata profile, ensure that I've got enough fuel in the ship to make it to the dropoff point, and check that my life and ship insurance is up to date.Sometimes I just want to kick down the door and go rampaging through a dungeon to be a big hero.That said, I still enjoy scifi and scifantasy, things like the Aeon Trinity setting and similar. Spelljammer was my jam back in the day.
>>78970336>Travel space until you get to a planet for an adventure Or>Just start on a planet
I'll repeat what has been said already. Fantasy is easy (there are also endless amounts of resources, tools, maps, generators etc), while scifi is hard, non-cinematic or pulpy one at least. You have to remember there will be cameras everywhere, IDs likely keyed to DNA and/or finger prints, definitely registered digitally. Your players can just download schematics and blueprints off the internet equivalent, or simply hack their way in from home. Scopes, advanced sensors, security turrets all make avoiding detection hard. Pictures and recordings make disguising even harder. You get the gist. You can have much more "free" setting rules, owing to a thing some guy said avoid shadowrun and it's shadowrunners "rule 0: shadowrunners exist", which means that despite all this tech that logically would make any corporate spionage extremely difficult to pull off, the criminal underground still proliferates. It's not profitable, easy or fast to seek out and apprehend criminals. Better to let them come to you, or better yet: employ them yourself.
>>78970611>Travel the ocean for months to get to the next adventureOr>Just land outside the dungeon in your spaceship lol>>78970336Hard to say for sure. A lot of it is likely "D&D is the most popular thing so everything else is small in proportion." It could be the perceived 'strictness' of character concepts in Sci-fi. I wouldn't be surprised if it were in part the combat. "I run up and hit the bad man with my sword in a bitchin' one on one heroic test of wills.' is probably more palatable for a lot of people than either "The same shit but with laser swords" or "Having to learn how you actually fight with guns at least semi-realistically"I've definitely experienced players giving up on sci-fi and modern games because "We're shooting at the bad men in cover from our cover and nothing is happening, and that's boring." Then acting like I had two heads when I suggest "You know you could suppress and flank, maybe?"
>>78970336Because the problem with sci-fi is that you keep tripping over the math.
>>78971099>a vast wilderness open to explore with a small group, meeting new friends and enemies along the way where everything matters but nothing is unchangeable if you have the grit and witvs>Imperial Democracy of Firepower cop-ships teleporting into every problem with one space-911 call, teleporting everyone involved into space jail, conducting a telepathic brain search and sentencing them to life in a pseudo-Scandinavian padded roomScifi has too much surveillance and the logical answer (no FTL) turns off most groups.
>>78971197I don't even know how your second example follows. I've never even seen a sci-fi setting like that, unless you're trying to run a game on Imperial Hub World #2700. Not having FTL just compounds that problem, it doesn't solve it, because now you're in one system with a likely somewhat homogenous tech level and even more development.At least with sane-speed FTL you can go have adventures on backwater colonies and frontier worlds.It just feels like you're imagining the most autistic no-fun 'my setting is super perfect' kiddy sci-fi, and of course you can't run a game in that.
>>78970336Less cinematic . And you HAVE to keep space in mind otherwise it's not scifi .Meaning you HAVE to play with a ship meaning you ARE either playing naval/pirate campaign but in space or just ignore it all and delete all sense of wandering around and discovering unintended stuff by basically walking in a random direction .>TldrIt's either semi-realsimfaging or railroading
>>78970336>Sci-fi isn't popular!Forgets:>Star Wars>Traveller>Warhammer 40k>Star TrekYour question should be "Why do most tabletop settings seem to be fantasy?"Which is answered by "Because most groups play D&D."Which is more popular than all other sci-fi and even fantasy tabletop RPGs combined.
>>78971246>It just feels like you're imagining the most autistic no-fun 'my setting is super perfect' kiddy sci-fi, and of course you can't run a game in that.You'd be surprised. Eclipse Phase has a whole sourcebook with a special focus on the question of universal surveillance.
>>78971197>sentencing them to life in a pseudo-Scandinavian padded roomI think it's very humane solution to thought crimes, lock the evilthinkers in padded cells and fill their brains with fluffy VR experience.
>>78970336Sci-Fi hits to close home and reminds us that we cant do anything a Sci-Fi hero can. Its easier for us to imagine picking up a sword, reading a book or praying in church and going on mystical adventures like the ones told in our own cultures history, then to imagine learning robotics, hacking and spaceship-engineering. Most people cant understand technology, because you need a university degree for that. It reminds you how lacking you are.
>>78971292I'm not surprised. Universal surveillance is, yes, a given in most sci-fi in certain places. But1: There are places where this isn't the case2: The places where it is you now have additional gameplay elements if handled properly3: This assumes the ONLY thing ANY party can do is "Illegal shit in inhabited areas." which is a narrow campaign scope to begin with.
>>78971261Have you never played a sci-fi campaign? The default space opera campaign is always you're playing a tree trader ship, not a naval vessel.It's all about exploring new thing>Interesting planets; both settled and unexplored.>Space itself being a fun obstacle>One week you're dealing with crime lords on a major trade hub world, then the next you're down on a desert planet as a sandstorm rolls in and you're trying to salvage a wreck. Then you're on the run from space cops/the Empire/or pirates.>The ship gives you a home, but also unlimited freedom to go anywhere you want.Have you never seen any sci-fi movie or show?
>>78971278Star Wars and 40k are Science Fantasy. There is too much magic and not enough plausible technology in play. Also, the worlds story's function on a fantastical premise
>>78970336My players want to kill monsters with swords. I'm too focused on my fantasy setting to start developing one, I'm, probably, not going to ever use. Also I like travelling through multiverse more than space travel, so my sci-fi would be focused on that anyway
>>78971246Distance makes the difference between a frontier or array of diverse regions and a homogeneous, hegemonic core. FTL is fundamentally about erasing the ultimate limit of distance, lightspeed. Non-FTL privileges distance (what happens on Mars stays on Mars), medium/"soft" FTL seeks a happy medium, and "hard" FTL results in wormhole networks or teleporters which erase distance completely. Because scifi nods at science, there's inherent tension between the the two poles of "hard" pro-science responses and the easier to game in "soft" type of middling FTL. IMO that's why settings like 40k do well, they're explicitly science fantasy.
>>78971352>Muh science fantasyYet, it has space ships, people use laser guns, they travel to other planets, and there's robots.Sure ignoring the fantasy stuff is a little harder with 40k, but you sure can with Star Wars. Just play a smuggler game or a Rebel game.If you asked a random person what genre Star Wars was likely they'll say sci-fi unless they're a pedant.
>>78970336A really big issue in scifi is transhumanism. Namely writers try to push it into stories that does not really fit into. If they just let it be a background issue then that would be fine but they rarely do that. AI gods are a another subject they can't leave alone. It is okay if it is a the focus of the story but does not work well as a subplot. There is a lot of mid sized issues with current sci-fi writers. For me it means that I have not read a sci fi novel released in the last ten years. TTRPG follow the types of stories that are popular in other mediums.
>>78971352>Genre definition fight! Genre definition fight! Can't have a sci-fi thread without 40 posts arguing the definition!This is also probably a big part of why nobody likes 'sci-fi' games. They don't know what they're in for when you say that. It could mean almost anything. And if it's not what they expect they may be this kind of sperg who has to correct you then leave anyway.
>>78971416This is why I just ask people to play a Star Wars game or a 40k game or a Traveller game. Because no pedant will go STAR WARS ISN'T SCI-FI at me.Despite it, you know, being sci-fi to 99% of humanity.
>>78971310Blue collar scifi like Alien would be comfy, you don't need to be smart to be a space trucker.
>>78971397They would answer with sci-fi because star wars is widely popular, while sci-fi itself, isn't. You can ask random person on street if vikings had horns on their helmets, doesn't make it true.
>>78971069Even palpiest of palps and soft as a butter space opera still needs more work than a fantasy setting. Simply because unlike in a book or a show you still need to keep the setting self consistent or many things gonna break when players get their hands on them. And keeping a spacefaring setting self-consistent is a lot of fucking work.
>>78971473Viking not having horns on their helmet is a historical fact that can't be changed by popular consensus.The definition of sci-fi is a word and those are changed by popular consensus. If everyone agrees Star Wars is sci-fi, it's sci-fi.Being a pedant doesn't change that.
>>78970336Culturally, fantastical tales are deeper ingrained into our society then tales of a high technology future.Also, in a sense, fantasy represents a "simpler" time where you dont have to worry about shit like insurance, debt, wage-labor, retirement, unemployment or overwhelming societal and technological complexity. (Strictly, fantastical worlds do have many similar aspects one would have to worry about, but its easier to ignore them in you idealized view)
It's a bit harder to work player agency into a sci fi series, just because you'd expect most of the power to be in the hands of governments or corporations, and it becomes harder for a small group of friends to be what the story pivots on.
>>78971518If definition right now is: "Anything with space travel and robots" then you're right, but if Star Wars doesn't meet requirements of said definition it isn't sci-fi. Random people can say whatever they want and it wouldn't change it.
>>78971638>Anything with space travel and robotsStar Wars literally has both of those, they appear in the first five minutes of the movie.
>>78971668Yeah I know. Is definition for fantasy: "Anything with swords and magic"? Because that would make Star Wars fantasy. Science-fiction Fantasy or Science Fantasy if you will
>>78971785I mean, a lightsaber is just a plasma sword and the Force is psionics with some extra mysticism attached to it.Unless you're gonna say psychic powers are somehow not sci-fi, despite being one of the oldest things in sci-fi?
>>78971575fantasy is just another form of capeshit. How else does the humble farm boy who becomes the greatest hero who ever lived persists?
>>78971478Absolutely. Shame the thread has devolved into an argument about the meaning of sci-fi. I won't partake in it, but I'll just add sci-fi, or science fiction, is about exploring new technology or their development, likely or not. No, it doesn't mean you gotta have some wacky new inflatable robotic sex tank. A spaceship is already the best and most recognizable example. Exploring new planets with all sorts of surgery equipment and terraforming is an example. Fighting dangerous fauna (and flora), chasing criminals in a high tech urban landscape, dueling with plasma swords while deflecting laser bullets are all examples. All these examples of tech shape the world and dictate how it works. In battletech giant mechs are the chosen way to fight, in SW it's energy guns and swords, 40k is a hodge podge of stuff, eclipse phase is all about radical effects of tech on society.
>>78971832Well except Force doesn't work like psionic powers. It works like magic. Using definition from google:>magic>the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.It fits Force perfectly, doesn't it? I'm talking about movies obviously. All I'm saying is that having useful, specialized definitions isn't pedantic, it makes discussions easier.Star Wars fits Science Fantasy more than Science Fiction
>>78972068>it makes discussions easier>has derailed the discussion to argue about definitions
>>78972098NtaYou did that.
>>78971465You probably need to be smarter than Star Trek where replicators and computers do all the work.
>>78972030In the era most of these tropes were written farming constituted over a quarter of jobs, over 60% in the recent past. It was a euphemism for the ordinary person.
>>78972323The modern equivalent would be like Neo or something where he starts out as an office drone.
>>78970336Scifi has always been more niche than Fantasy even in other media. The number of scifi movie flops is impressive. Even the most popular scifi flick ever in Star Wars is actually just futuristic/space fantasy.
>>78972352Then he gets bitten by a radioactive truck and ends in fantasylands?
>>78970336Fantasy is a lot easier because there's so much established genre conventions. You can easily take DnD, by far the most populat tabletop RPG and write a homebrew setting for it. For SF, you mostly have games built around a specific setting (Traveler, Star Wars, 40k, etc.) that would take a lot more work to convert into a custom setting. Plus it's a lot more work on the players part. In fantasy everybody knows what elves and dwarves and so on are like, so and even if your version differs somewhat from the standard they still generally retain the core elements and the differences tend to boil down to thing like "m dwarves borrow from Chinese culture" or "my elves are based on ancient Greeks". In SF you have to explain each race in a lot more detail because they players don't already have a ready reference to what they're supposed to look and act like.I've came up with a both SF and fantasy setting, and while the SF one is the one I've put way more thought into, it's unlikely I'd ever end up running a game there. For fantasy, I can just play standard DnD set in my campaign world, but for SF I'd probably have to learn GURPS and then convince other people to play GURPS in a setting they have no established connection to. So the setting pretty much exists as an excuse for me to draw space ships and aliens, and maybe eventually write a "future historical" book on.
>>78970336>mfw experiencing a campaign derailment first hand in my fantasy game and wondering just how badly it can turn out in SF games where can basically say "we get into our starships and fuck off somewhere"
>>78970336because as we advance what qualifies as sci-fi either shrinks or becomes more "magic" at which point why not just go fantasy
>>78972870Cool spaceship anon. Have some of mine. It can be tough to find people to play stuff, but having run at least one entire campaign in pic related setting, it's not impossible. Though in my case I hacked EP to do It instead of GURPS. Wound up starting down the path of writing a new game to facilitate it better even. I've generally found the answer to the 'detail problem' is some vagueness and allowance for the players to fill in the gaps, as well as being more open to cultural differences. Having a species with dozens of cultures, only detailing a few, and saying others are 'kinda like this," gives a spectrum for how tethered a player wants to be to existing worldbuilding, and might even help generate good material for 'canon'. One of my species had their entire 'deal' about warfare changed because of player feedback and characterization.There's a bunch of sci-fi games that could work with a little tweaking, and the GURPS option isn't that bad either. Having learned it a few years ago, after its reputation, my reaction can be summed up as 'wait that's it?'>>78972915The party needn't always have their own ship. Can be chartered places by an employer, etc. Though if they do have a ship, and that's a big draw for sci-fi, you do have to be ready for that and plan your campaign premise around the possibility some. But player cooperation also helps. Good players have at least some understanding that they've got to go along with something, eventually, or they're only ever going to run into last minute improv.Generally in sci-fi I've run conceits that are more "You're already employed and work for X, doing this." So the group is cohesive and has a reason to be doing given tasks in a timely fashion. Though you want to make each broad enough to give them leeway of how.
>>78971352>>78971397>>78971416>>78971473>>78971638>>78971785>>78972068>>78972442>b-but star wars isn't sci fi! It's fantasy because it has space swords and space magic and space wizards!Stop coping, faggot. Star wars has always been sci fi. Dune literally has space swords, space magic and space wizards and is considered a fundemental work of sci fi but when star wars does it suddenly you pseuds cope and try to push the idea that it's not sci fi.Star wars has always been sci fi. Ever since it was released in 1977 fans immediately embraced it as sci fi and suddenly sci fi conventions were chock full of star wars.Science ficiton doesn't need to be giga autistic hard science for it to be considered sci fi. Before hack writers in the 40s and 50s like asimov ruined it, science ficiton was never obsessed with autistic explanations of how spaceships worked. It was pulpy, soft science fiction,with rayguns and swords.>b-but the plot of star wars could just as easily be put into a medieval setting!So could dune. so could legend of the galactic heroes. so could star trek
>>78972870>Fantasy is a lot easier because there's so much established genre conventions.This is probably the main reason. As long as you even loosely describe your setting (medieval fantasy, high fantasy, etc) your brain is already filling in the gaps. Unless you running a knockoff SF game where it's really obvious what you're drawing from you need to put in that legwork.
does anybody know how to post PDFs on here? do i need a specific program to make a PDF?
>>78973133You can post them just like you would a picture, provided they're not above the max filesize. You may have to use a pdf compression website if it's too big.
>>78973220max filesize is 5mb on here, right? know any good PDF makers or can i export a PDF from google docs or something?
>>78973238Google docs has a 'download as pdf' option under the file menu, friend.
>>78970336I want to live forever, throw fireballs at opeasants and bang a succubus chick, not dabble in science and die in the coldness of space amongst the uncarring stars
>>78973377My man, living forever and ramming multicolored babes was sci-fi's hat before these "nooo, that's not real science," cretins got ahold of it.
>>78973399Maybe, but only sci fi i can stomach is the fantasy genre (40k and Star Wars). If i had to play something like Star Trek id scratch my eyes out first, such a boring setting even other nerds would bully
>>78973438That's cool. Star Wars is fuckin' rad. The underworld stuff mirrors what I like in sci-fi, myself. Running dubious cargoes between forsaken backwaters, getting into scraps with pirate gangs and small local governments. Picking over derelict ships and ancient ruins. That's good sci-fi game stuff.
>>78973301thank you feller
>>78973587I feel ya. Im more of a "run as a space monk throwing lightning and cutting things with your plasma sword" kind of guy. But im not a stranger to a good "ocean's eleven in space" adventure
>>78973649The magic of Star Wars is that it can do both, yeah. I'm not really attached to the setting, and I don't even like the force/Jedi stuff much, but I can still play a disgraced arms CEO supplying the rebels to get back at the empire for seizing his assets, while my friend plays a starfighter pilot with a laser sword and mystic powers, and it all works together. Quite an achievement.
A sci-fi adventure is overwhelmingly harder to make compelling or interesting than a fantasy adventure for the common man. while you absolutely CAN make a wondrous sci-fi story, it requires a markedly greater deal of context and application of interesting characters than a bunch of heroes slaying a giant lich or working with a dragon to take down a demon.
>>78970369It's not "easy", it's detached from reality. Science fiction is fiction pretending it is scientifically accurate. Hard sci-fi is a bunch of techno-babble trying to justify FTL travel, something that's by our modern understanding of science impossible even in theory. "Science fantasy" (which isn't a thing that exists, it's just sci-fi for people who aren't autistic) just handwaves FTL by saying they have a big machine that GOES VRRRRRRRRRRT-ZEEPOW!For some reason, the average autist is more willing to handwaves the existence of fairies than "scientifically inaccurate FTL" (which, again, is strictly speaking all FTL). But woe be to the poor fool who runs a "historically inspired" campaign and introduces such glaring, gamebreaking inaccuracies like Carolingian farmers having wheelbarrows and windmills.
>>78971478>>78972045This. I love science fiction but I'm much more comfortable writing in/about an established setting than making my own far more than fantasy. It's like that scene in The Last Jedi where the lady warps through a much larger spaceship, destroying it. Everything established in the setting has been completely undone for a single cool looking scene. So even when you go space gonzo, you need to keep some kind of track of who can do what and how important it is to the world. Even Frank Herbert had to use handwavium to explain how the Saudikar lost so handily to the Fremen and this is before considering the ramifications of the shield/laser interaction in a world with not only political assassinations as a fact of life, but also politicians with very few moral scruples. Even if you accept the technology works the way its described, the fact that they exist in a breathing world means you have to account for logical interactions people would take.
>>78971352Star Trek is about as scientifically plausible as 40k, but it's in denial about it.
>>78970336for me it is the fact that a lot of sci-fi doesnt make sense the more you learn about actual science. It is harder to suspend your disbelief, and it is way harder to make a setting that makes sense.
>>78974578>science fantasy doesn't existOh yes it does. Science Fiction is explores issues through fictional technology and science fantasy tells a fantasy tale through a futuristic lense.
>>78970336People who like Sci-fi are cunts and like to gatekeep.
Scifi writers are basically all the same as local lord posters, complete with not actually knowing what the fuck they're talking about.
Because modern life is hell so why would I want to play in a setting like it but worse?
>>78970336True in TTRPGs, not necessarily in fiction per se.>>78974872Yeah, but at the same time it tries to things in a relatively plausible way when it's not blocking a good story.Which happens everytime, but still the approach is kinda different.
>>78975268Bullshit. Acknowledging that different story structures are better suited to different mediums is common sense. Doesn't stop anyone from doing as they like, just gives perspective before they set out on it.
I prefer fantasy because I dont like the modern world, so I want to escape in some mythic European world. Sci if ultimately reminds me too much of the world I'm trying to get away from.Also Ted K is and always was correct
>>78977107The past was an ecological disaster too. A sane human society has never existed, we simply didn't have to tools to do as much damage as quickly.
>>78970336Because there’s a standard fantasy setup that exists in the popular consciousness: humans, elves, dwarves, and hobbits running around in a world with goblins and orcs and everything. A basic archetype that feels timeless due to the fact that most of its trappings are extremely public domain.Sci-fi doesn’t have that. There is no one overarching, dominant science fiction paradigm that is owned by everyone the way there is fantasy. The closest you’ll get is Star Trek, and that’s a specific setting, not a general playground like fantasy.
>>78972870Traveller Classic or Mongoose Traveller 2e would also be great, and probably not nearly as much of a burden to run as something like GURPS.
>>78970336During good times, people look to the future. During bad times, people look to the past.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftbJeC3WiSc
>>78971352So what’s Halo
>>78970336because irl "exploring the stars" would be worse than any job in real life
>>78977573Thanks for telling the truth so that I don't have to.
People only look back to the past now. They don't look to the future, they're afraid of the future. Fantasy is a security blanket, it's comfort food.
>>78978865I could hack the loneliness, particularly with an AI wafiu. It's the danger of being a space surveyor or trucker that would really get to me.
>>78973060The idea that Asimov was particularly crunchy sci-fi is funny to me. He is essentially the same pulp you are talking about, with a bit of high concept sprinkled in.
>>78970336Sci-fi has run into the problem that advancing science has proven just how boring reality truly is, resulting in the genre being infested by the cancer that is realismfags - obnoxious no-fun pretentious assholes who revel in enforcing genres to adhere to the lameness of reality.Whilst still present in fantasy, their influence is far less prevalent compared to the stranglehold they have on sci-fi.So people flock to fantasy because it offers something that sci-fi largely no longer can: escapism, hope and fun.
>>78970336Fishies must be really fuckin valuable if you have that equipment.
>>78970336describe the scene in your pic as you would to your players without them ever seeing it before. now describe a similar setting but in generic fantasy. you'll quickly understand why
>>78980821The mechs are to punch any megagators that come for your catch.
>>78970336>Be me>Bored by the idea of making either one or the other>Make 2 different settings with the concept of Early Space Travel + Magic>In one world, Magic is as important as Technology, but some parts of the world lack large quantities of magic sources and wizards/sorcerers, so develope more tech>There are some ancient artefacts from the early beginnings of the world, amd proofs that the world was meant to be the home of some ancient but advanced space species>Other setting have two planets divided by both magic and technology, one looking like a mixture of Renaissance, the other a Giger hell.
I've had plenty of ideas for sci fi games (be they actual ttrpgs or run more akin to a quest) but I'm too retarded to actually do anything with them.
>>78986147Any good ones in particular? If find that though I enjoy reading hard sf I can only come up with softer settings.
>>78986227>goodNo probably not. Being freelance salvagers is one idea that really appealed to me though. Mostly because I played a lot of Hardspace.
>>78973438Where would chronicles of Riddick or other such settings fit into your view?
>>78986717No need to knock it. It's Duskers that gets my creative juices going, I ended up with Vinge's Zones of Thought on a Dyson swarm scale thanks to that analogue wrecker aesthetic.
>>78971575You could easily play sci fi to those themes. Colonists on a new world living a basic life in the wilds trying to build a new society. High tech things in the background like tools, solar panels, etc. But still fantasy.
>>78986717Tell me about it. The original Hardware: Shipbreakers trailer for what became DoK is my tone setter for "How I want to run sci-fi forever."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGax_UYXDUIReally want to base the entire corebook subsetting for my game off this aesthetic/premise.Love where they went with Hardspace though, I play the shit out of that and could see using its setting for a game too.
People are more willing to call something fantasy whereas sci-fi suffers from sub-categorization and separation to an extreme degree.You could easily call 5e, yes 5e, a sci-fi game, but people don't. Their definition of sci-fi is too narrow.
>>78980688Wanting things to make sense isn't a crime.
>>78987434Absolutely beautiful. Looks like a grittier take on the indirect economic warfare implied by Offworld Trading company. Playing privateers/corporate spies would be pretty neat in that setting though justifying continued adventures as your cover erodes would be tough, maybe the transition into strategic gameplay as a corporate contender would be the way.
>>78971351all of those greentexts are true but realistically implausible in a gameagain a rich and immense world is almost impossible to build by a gm with all the planets dangers of space etc.and if players try to sidetrack there is hardly a realistic way to stop them without railroading r killing them.UNLESS your setting doesnt have FTL and then its gonna be 3 planets max with space travel being very limited .so more like cyberpunk with some space than general sci-fi.
>>78981299I'm sorry you can't see past your glory days of 360noscopesniperheadshots on xbawxlive.You asked, it's Trash. Accept this and move on with life.
>>78987434>>78987434Not much to say, all I have is that the players would start in a galactic backwater in a system that serves as a junkyard/boneyard for [Space Government]. The contrivance would be that the players or maybe one player would have come into enough money somehow to buy a cheap space craigslist junker (I've written a few adverts for this) and then the party can make their way in the world. As salvagers, mercs, tramp traders, whatever. The old space shit trait threads on /tg/ gave a lot to the junker ads.Idk, I'm never gonna get around to running a sci fi game. I just do it as a brainstorming exercise at this point. Just jam out to some filk and the shipbreaker ost and type out whatever scifi themed brain vomit I can.
>>78974908Most fantasy also gets insufferably bad the more you dive into the meta nature of the world and it's magic.Like Star wars and Mid-Clorians.
>>78987924Nothing wrong with a spot of worldbuilding. Even if not applicable for you it may appeal to somebody else. We had a great "haunted desert planet" thread a while back with an excellent framework for building escape vehicles from downed wrecks while enduring the maddening daylight.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPBnl0GFKzY&ab_channel=EpicStep
>>78970336yooo, don't wanna make a new thread, but could playing a zerg-like (more like hydralisk and not like Kerrigan) alien be possible without screwing too much up?
>>78973438You might enjoy Joan D. Vinge's Psion. A lot of gems in the 90's and early 2000's that thankfully haven't been adapted and ruined.
>>78977573Why do you need one? Make your own setting.
>>78973649Heard of Star of the Guardians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_the_Guardians
>>78988107thanks anon. Have one of the ship adverts Vessel Name: Unnamed VesselVessel Class: UNK ClassSeller: Alvar “Gundy” GundersonPrice:Description:Ghost ship. Found adrift in nebula. Very old, possibly military. Mostly intact. Has strange internal layout. No Identification as nameplate destroyed and computers scrubbed. Remaining data appears to be junk but two strings recur ’4131016’ and ‘241318818-17106425’. I know what I got. No lowballers, no crawlspace greeblers, no haggling. Sold as is. Price firm and priced to move. -Gundy
>>78970336>>78971352This is exactly why Sci-Fi settings are so difficult. These dudes always come out of the woodwork to gatekeep you.
>>78988442No it's because the more explanation you provide on a sci-fi setting the more you take it from the sci-fi setting to a fantasy setting of even more nonsensical gobbledygook.
>>78988236>Joan D. Vinge's Psion>90'sBooks are from the 80's mate.I remember finding that and Catspaw when I was a tween and I was not ready for the amount of sleeping around that Cat got up too.Love the psions in it and cultural clashes.
>>78970336People would rather play as a group of pansy elves than a team of cybernetically-enhanced supermen, of course. In all seriousness, fantasy is simply an easier genre to write for. Most fantasy conventions have their basis in mythology and folklore, which most people have had knowledge of since childhood. There's a sort of omnipresent cultural understanding of what "fantasy" is, even if the specifics differ from place to place and person to person. SF doesn't have that, as there's no universal idea of what SF is. Is it Star Trek? Is it Mass Effect? Is it Halo? Is it the setting that exists solely in my head and may never actually see the light of day? Fantasy is also easier to sell to people. Would you rather be a heroic knight who saves a kingdom from a fearsome dragon and gets the princess or a space trucker wasting away in a tin can for a barely livable salary?Of course, you can apply "fantastical" ideas to SF and thus make it more palatable to a wider audience. Star Wars, Flash Gordon, Buck Rodgers and plenty more stories do exactly that. Though, the "science" part of "science-fiction" tends to give way to adventure and the idea of "classical heroism", i.e. a handsome, charismatic hero saving the day from a great, unmistakable evil. Me, I prefer science-fiction. Most fantasy comes across as easy wish-fulfillment to me. Then again, SF can as well, though it depends on who's doing the writing.>>78986717>HardspaceA man of culture, I see.
Because space is mostly boring and empty.And as pointed out, Fantasy angles itself better towards adventure than Sci-Fi does.
This thread just reminded me of Duskers, and now I've got to go play it until the adrenaline shakes get to be too much.Past that note, I like SciFi, SciFantasy, and Fantasy for different reasons.When I want to play Scifi, it's because I'm more in the mood to explore the character, the lifestyle and culture, the way that things have changed and yet in some ways stay the same.Fantasy always ends up turning into 'what personal magic trick or power do I have that lets me win the game' type stories, less about the person, more about the power.
>>78989030Any ideas how you'd adapt its atmosphere to the tabletop medium?
>>78974578>Hard sci-fi is a bunch of techno-babble trying to justify FTL travelThen it isnt hard sci fi. Hard scifi is just asking "what if we put billions into our space programs?"
>>78971407If you havent read a sci-fi novel in ten years, isnt your entire point null? For all you know those tropes could have been ditched nearly a decade ago and you've been missing out on some good shit.
>>78970336Fantasy can tell any story sci-fi can, but the reverse isn't true. Fantasy is simply the more flexible genre.
>>78989144Umm we already do.
>>78989091It's hard to build that tense 'oh fuck I need to react now it's coming at me closethedoorcloseitcloseit!' terror that Duskers does so well Protip, those sounds? Those aren't always just background noise, you can sometimes hear the monsters and the groaning of pipes about to burst from the strain.Maybe with a time/turn unit system? But then it'd be very easy to hit a death spiral with no escape and see that you've hit, leading to a lot of early aborted games.
>>78988856>man of cultureI am surprisingly uncultured actually. Hardspace and a few other things are the only thing most people would considered "cultured" about me.
>>78989144It's a gradient with that being the extreme end. More generally it tries to keep the technobabble as reasonable reasonable as it can without hamstringing the story.
>>78988302>Make your own setting.Which will only satisfy a specific niche of sci-fi fans and not interest the rest because there is no central idea of what sci-fi is.
>>78989216That's why I ask, some play reports of Mothership seem to come close but they have more in common with Alien. Less melancholy isolation.>>78989262Good. Everything is niche and bland mixes shouldn't be the default.
>>78989262Yes, and? You think one type of fantasy satisfies everyone?
>>78989209I should have said unlimited funds into the programs
Space Sci-fi is almost never done well because most writers arent autistic enough to create an entire planet's worth of lore, fauna, flora and civilizations. Its hard to get immersed in sci-fi space shit because most of the time its the same old desert/ocean/plains/city/jungle/lava worlds with creatures that are basically the same shit we see on Earth that are either the same but big or basically the same but with extra eyes or tentacles because woah squids are wacky xd. Space Opera is the superior genre because you can have all the fun of fantasy in a soft sci fi setting. The more you try to make shit """realistic""" the less fun its going to be for everyone short of elitist faggots that huff Degrasse Tyson's pretentious atheist farts.
>>789703361) D&D got their first, has dominated tabletop for most of its existence as the default game, and a large amount of other tabletop has been build off of it.2) People are happy to play in fantasy settings that are made from mashing together dozens of existing settings. On the other hand they mostly seem to want to play in preexisting scifi settings (which means homebrew or licensed games, neither of which have huge audience).3) A large proportion of the science fiction fanbase is autistic, and obsessively argues about realism and genre definitions in a way that makes them extremely annoying to deal with in a collaborative setting.
>>78970336>Why don't humans want to explore the stars anymoreThe reason is as dark as you allude it to be.
>>78989397It's funny because I'm pretty sure Neil has gone on record saying he enjoys watching whacky science fiction as long as the movie is good. His analysis is more like a guy who has worked on air conditioning watching a heist movie. Decades of experience means you can't help but notice vents don't work that way.
>>78989183What's the story that fantasy can tell, but sci-fi can't?
Whether it is true or not, in my mind I feel a big problem is that the more close to modern the setting, the more difficulty there is in justifying certain things. Like, why is there the possibility to go on adventures when in reality you have the problem of things like more concrete levels of ownership/laws getting in the way, as well as things like discouragement of vigilante type behavior, law enforcement and governments that are far more widespread and controlling, etc.
>>78987899>I'm sorry you can't see past your glory days of 360noscopesniperheadshots on xbawxlive.I’m sorry you can’t see past retarded plastic figures of muh super duper op spess marines that can beat your dad. Grow up you ass
>>78990935>retarded plastic figuresNice projection there.We're talking real scifi and similar settings, like things from Niven. You know, hard scifi that doesn't focus on a single super solider project wish-fulfillment stomping their way through an army of acceptable targets.
>>78990995Better cut out 90% of sci fi then
>>78991624Exactly, hence the problem that's been evident in the thread when it comes to popularity of Scifi, SciFantasy, and straight Fantasy.
>>78970336Human beings are naturally repulsed by industrial society.
>>78970336Honestly?Reading through this thread, it seems a lot of GMs are just terrible at SF worldbuilding and storytelling.I wouldn't want to play in their games either.Every Sci-fi obstacle has an equal sci-fi solution.Cameras everywhere? Just buy a stealth suit or hack the cameras.This is in no way different from sneaking past the city guards in a fantasy setting.Just treat technology like magic.
>>78990301That is actually one of the hurdles I face when trying to build a scifi universe. It is hard to find reasons for three to five player characters to do things, when realistically it would be the work of an army of specialists in a dedicated organization, like a military or a university. You can use the "you are the only people close enough!" only so many times before it gets old.
>>78992757Running it more like a space-western helps in that regard, but only so much.
I'm going to go watch Outlaw Star again
>>78992757Its a flawed approach trying to have a Sci fi setting that needs to cover an entire galaxy, nevermind more than a city. Just stick to one well developed location that let's you show off tech. Penal Colony on an asteroid or hostile planet is a personal favorite.If the scope of your setting is greater than makes sense for an individual scale then the players shouldn't be individuals but directors of entire fleets or alien species.
>>78993119I haven't ever figured out how to run a satisfying game where people are directors. I know how to set stakes and offer stories for individuals, but doing the same for organizations is not clear to me.
Just like in fantasy campaigns. Start small, to a single location or planet. Then gradually expand that scope through providing transport to other planets, or even give your players their own ship.
>>78972870>Fantasy is a lot easier because there's so much established genre conventions.This is the real answer. When you make a fantasy setting, you can start from one of SEVERAL long-established and well-understood base setting milieus and then twist stuff around. You get immediate buy-in and people can easily fill the gaps with what makes sense based on what they've seen before until you show otherwise. You get to jump right to the interesting/fun parts of worldbuilding.There's no generic sci-fi setting with the same level of underlying assumptions, because as a genre it is more based in speculation and idea than milieu. If I say 'I have a sci-fi setting,' so much remains uncertain about what that means. Unless you're writing a cyberpunk, you pretty much have to call to very specific works of fiction and say 'it's like that, but this' every time. If I say 'It's a planetary space opera' you can still make only the mildest of assumptions about what the world looks like. Are we talking Star Control? Star Trek? Full Farscape? If I say 'It's like Star Trek, but..' then you can make way more specific assumptions. It takes way more work to reach groundwork level zero.
>>78993119Isn’t it better to pick up a cyberpunk setting in that case?
>>78998023Buddy, cyberpunk is a sci fi setting.
>>78996916I think it’s more that fantasy is just too grounded on mundane reality (ironically) compared to sci-fi. I don’t think there is a whole lot of difficulty, but to get into sci-fi you need to learn/understand various concepts to play because space and other planets just work too differently from Earth, you’re emulating realities that operate under parameters different from our own, so you need to understand precisely what changes so you can properly roleplay, and that’s a barrier.To play fantasy you just emulate real life Earth physics because virtually all settings are basically not-Earth with magic and other races. You just put in practice what you experience daily but with a few extra things.In sci fi you pretty much need at least a little more technical understanding of how things work.
>>78998159True, but broadly speaking when you say “sci-fi” it’s usually referring to a setting involving spaceships, FTL, etc. While “cyberpunk” is a lot more specific and doesn’t necessarily involve that sort of technology.
>>78998245You can have spaceships, alien species, and FTL in a municipal setting, it's just that they may have relegated value. There are numerous other prospective technologies to make an appearance that get the idea across. Cyberpunk itself has a focus on crime, corporate espionage, and cybernetic augmentation, on top of being almost always a human only or earth based setting. Broader sci-fi might put the players in the role of law enforcement, different forms of physical enhancements like biological alterations, the political sphere might have a more dominating influence over the corporate, and like previously stated, involve inhabiting or colonizing a non-earth setting.
>>78998245Yes, the creativity void masses insist on putting everything into neat boxes for quick reference despite having literal decades to live and converse.
No bullshit, what is the best system to run a "Cyberpunk/Bladerunner" style game, but with more emphasis on space travel?
>>78999065The thing that makes space opera different from classic cyberpunk is with space, people can escape. What's the megacorp's plan for someone stealing a ship and setting course 'away' from everything they own?
>>78970336So, I love Sci-fi, but then again I can be presented with a narrative, understand it isn't real, accept what I'm told about the world, and just enjoy the ride. Which is great for media that is watched/read/enjoyed on a strictly individual level.Once you add in gaming, and by extension, other people, and by extension, other people's interpretations and two cents re: shit you've put a piece of yourself into? Shiiiiieeeet... I enjoy 40K, which is so hilariously over-the-top and detached from reality that bringing up real world science/physics is a non-sequitur... and Starfinder, which has dinosaur klingon space marines AKA the coolest thing ever AND from page one said "bitch it's magic, we ain't gotta explain shit."You contrast that to fantasy, which by it's very nature is divorced from reality, and world-building becomes a lot less of an existential dilemma. Everything works the way it does because I say so, and everyone is onboard with that from day one.>>78975268>Implying Gatekeeping is bad>Mfw>>78974578>Hard sci-fiLikely ends with us wandering not far, at least in any span of time relevant to humanity in it's present state. What was that one Russian wargame where the faction of synthetic, inhuman horrors turned out to be distant descendants of Earth humans whose entire existence is spent connected to the super internet, shit posting and playing RTS with disposable vessels against lesser beings? That was pretty awesome.>Science FantasyIs very much a thing. Starfinder, Star Wars, Destiny... I think the key differences are 1. Magic/de facto Magic exists and 2. rule of cool is king, and that's made clear early, and constantly reinforced.The first time my Starfinder group was on it's way to a plot hook with our shiny new starship I blasted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsvHK4Bt1Y8 and everybody got the reference/had a good time... let me try that shit with a table of "hard sci-fi" autists all trying to one-up each other.
>>78999479>Likely ends with us wandering not far, at least in any span of time relevant to humanity in it's present state.I think At-43, but thats french.
Humanity has always been stuck in a cycle of hope for the future and longing for the past. As you can probably already guess, science fiction is tied to hope, whereas fantasy is tied to longing. Unfortunately, we're currently in a phase of longing. Sci-fi will be popular again once our society experiences a drastic change, whether it's of a religious, sociological, political or demographic nature.
>>78970336Fantasy has always been more popular than sci fi in tabletop. There has never been a period where the dominant games were sci fi, ever. It's always been niche.>>78970369>Sci-fi is boring, fantasy is fun.FTFY, the only sci fi IPs that are popular are the ones that are soft as fuck and might as well be science fantasy.
Fantasy has much more tightly defined tropes. This is useful for an RPG because players can get right into roleplaying by assuming these tropes hold true until proven otherwise. Scifi settings on the other hand are very varied, and the player needs a pretty good rundown on the setting to roleplay.
>>78970336Fantasy settings kicked off hard when we realized we are never going to space. Scfi can't offer the fantasy of the real anymore, and that was its worldbuilding appeal.
>>78971132But do you HAVE to use a math heavy system?
>>78971308or fill their fluffy heads with grimderp fantasy?
>>78971353Multiverse campaigns are amazing.
>>78970336>Why are fantasy settings more popular amongst players, worldbuilders, tabletop fans in general, than scifi? Why don't humans want to explore the stars anymore?Because Sci-fi is speculative, not to mention straight up restrictive. Fantasy, despite it's frequent abuse, is not inherently speculative - it's a way to tap into incredibly old stories (mythologies and folklore) and their archetypes, which are something we literally EVOLVED with, something that was formed to appeal to very old and very important parts of our minds. On top of the archetypal appeal, it poses little to no limitation, and the world-building generally bends over to accomodate the stories.With sci-fi, the approach is at core reversed. It's speculative to the bone: and the stories are designed to fit the world-building: stories bend to adhere to the rules of speculation you lay out. That does, and will ALWAYS, make them a more niche appealing genre. The harder the sci-fi is, the more pronounced this is going to be.Magical realism trumphs both of them, by the way.
>>78972442There haven't been that many successful Fantasy films, unless you count the Hairy Potter stuff.
>>78972727Then he gets bitten by a radioactive vacuum tube and ends up as Superman?
>>78999960>There haven't been that many successful Fantasy films, unless you count the Hairy Potter stuff.Yeah, I mean who would fucking remember that obscure Lotr series.
>>78972870>Fantasy is a lot easier because there's so much established genre conventions.Well... if you assume most everything (published) is based on copying DnD or Tolkien concepts. Not a very deep puddle.
>>78999935Magical realism is why I love runequest as a game system despite not being particularly attached to glorantha>Ps get mythras if you want some good non gloranthan RQ
>>78999574>Fantasy has much more tightly defined tropes.Not that I completely disagree, but when you stop and think about it:HOW FUCKING ABSURD IS THAT?!It's "fantasy". Literally a different word for "imagination". How the FUCK did a genre called "imagination" became famous for it's lack of imagination?!
>>78973060>b-but the plot of star wars could just as easily be put into a medieval setting!or a Westernor a Modern era Crime Storyor a Bronze Age story
>>78973377Well, if the vast coldness of space bothers you... you can always find a teleport ring from an Ancient civilization.
>>78974578>gamebreaking inaccuracies like Carolingian farmers having wheelbarrows and windmills.in Book 3 we give them potatoes and tobacco
>>78974872but at least Trek is fun
>>78998224There's a lot of SF settings that treat space travel as purely a plot device to get from planet A to planet B and space combat as a mix of air and naval combat, and all planets featured have roughly Earthlike conditions with a few differences (like maybe the atmosphere is not breathable so you need a space suit). I think it's more that fantasy is (still rather ironically) more formalized with stock tropes and races. You tell players "you encounter a dwarf" and they instantly get a clear mental image of a short gruff bearded guy, so you can immediately proceed on describing how this particular dwarf looks like (i.e. he has a bright red braided beard, wears chainmail, and carries an axe), whereas is you tell the players "you encounter a Xorblaxian", you first have to describe what Xorblaxians even are before proceeding to describe this particular Xorblaxian, and even then the players image on what they look like may end up being very different to what you intended unless you have visual references.
>>78971352Include Star trek in that list.
>>78987463They haven't read enough sci-fi.
>>78973060It is not about what SW has, it is about what SW does not have and this is actuall fucking fictional science and its impacts on its world. Dune for example has the core concept of super smart computer humans, because the world is past artificial intelligence at that point. In SW all the scientific stuff is just wall painting as you correctly pointed out and that is not sufficient to be a worthwhile sci-fi work. And no, it does not have to be autistic hard sci-fi, but the advancements in technology have to impact the world in a tangible way. The only fictional thing heavily impacting the world of SW is the magical force shit and it is what the whole story spins around.You can call it sci-fi for all I care, but it is barely grasping at the potential of the genre and therefore a bad representation of it, despite being popular.
>>78975268>like to gatekeep.Has never been a thing in any hobby ever.
>>78989397is fully immersive autistic level detail really a common ingredient of fantasy?>Space Opera is the superior genreobviously
>>79000032There is a great viewpoint in the great speech from Six Degrees of Separation. The whole scene is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRrs_X4OUkU but the key where they talk about it:>The aura about this book of Salinger’s which perhaps should be read by everyone but young men is this. It mirrors like a fun house mirror and amplifies like a distorted speaker one of the great tragedies our time: the death of the imagination, because what else is paralysis? The imagination has been so debased that imagination, being imaginative rather than being the lynch pin of our existence now stands for a synonym for something outside ourselves. Like science fiction or some new use for tangerine slices on raw pork chops. What an imaginative summer recipe. And Star Wars, so imaginative. And Star Trek, so imaginative. And Lord of the Rings, all those dwarves, so imaginative. The imagination has moved out of the realm of being our link, I mean our most personal link with our inner lives. The world outside that world, this world we share. What is schizophrenia but a horrifying state where what’s in here doesn’t match up with what’s out there. Why has imagination become a synonym for style? I believe the imagination is the passport that we create to help take us into the real world. I believe the imagination is merely another phrase for what is most uniquely us. Jung says, “The greatest sin is to be unconscious.” Holden says, “What scares me most is the other guy’s face. It wouldn’t be so bad if you both could be blindfolded.” Most of the time the faces that we face are not the other guy’s but our own faces. And it is the worst kind of yellowness to be so scared of yourself that you would put blindfolds on rather than deal with yourself. To face ourselves, that’s the hard thing. The imagination, that’s God’s gift. To make the act of self examination, bearable.
>>78973060>Star wars has always been sci fi. Dune literally has space swords, space magic and space wizardsIt has regular sword, people genetically manipulated and high on stimulants to perform as human computers, and the only thing that even remotely approaches space-magic is the melange's future-seeing. There are also Holtzman generators, but those are clearly soft-sci-fi, purely an application of physics that we just happen not to possess yet. It's a fuckton of rigid speculation and a very small quantities of soft-science. It's all about people developing strange, yet plausible solutions to a real-world science-inspired problems: Mentats are a response to the threat of uncontrolled A.I., prophecies and messianic themes results of systemic social engineering, the presence of ancestors is straight up stated as part of celluar genetic memory (a theory that was, for a long time, considered a scientific plausibility) melee weapons are an adaptation to the volativity of Holtzman fields and so on. You can't compare it to SW, which has laser swords that are somehow physically solid objects, literal magic called "The Force", LITERAL GHOSTS, and not a single attempt to explain how 99% of it's settings actually functions, with references to any form of rigorous knowledge. I'm not saying one is in any way better than the other. There is nothing wrong with space fantasy like Star Wars, god knows I love the original works like very few things in the world, but pretending like it's the same as Dune is laughable.
>>78991624Sturgeon's Law also applies to Fantasy.
>>78999220There are some cyberpunk games that do include space travel, usually just to space stations or nearby planets. The thing with stealing a spaceship and setting a course away... you're going to run into the 'Hey, you're now in the middle of nowhere with no resources, and possibly no habitable planets to land on to resupply'. The thing with worlds like Star Wars and Firefly and Star Trek and so forth is sprawling organizations/empires/corporations, the universe is a map of Stellaris with different groups. A cyberpunk game would mostly be more like ranshackle ships, a smattering of pace stations and maybe an outpost or two here and there (probably crewed by programmed robots or a few people in a dome colony or the like). The whole world is crapsack, so even if you get away, you're essentially commuting suicide.
>>78970336Fantasy scratches an itch for a mythology that has been explained away by science
>>78971602You can easily do stories where a small group can be important. Who's to say there isn't a group behind them, but the players are some of the key members. Modiphius Star Trek RPG had the players being members of the Starship crew, and their Aliens game had them being ship members. Firefly RPG had people being another group of Space Western outlaws looking to find aways to make profit, which fits a bit better but just as easily they could be working for the Imperials as a recovery squad/survey team. Star Wars could be rebels, could be an Imperial Assault Team, could be a band of independant smugglers and traders and bounty hunters.I've seen Fantasy and Sci-fi games where you work for an organization, whether it the Pathfinders, a Blade Runner unit of the cops, special task force wing of the King's army or a corporate troubleshooting squad... or a group of superheroes out to save the world. There can be actions and people behidn the scenes working for the same organizations you work for. It doesn't have to be just the PCs against the world.
>>78987463>>79000259Speculative faction or weird fiction is a pretty wide category that includes both science fiction and fantasy, and the two genres used to have a lot of overlap. While there's a lot of even very early stories where you can definitely say "this is fantasy" and "this is science fiction", there's also a lot of times where stories combine elements of both. Like Jack Vance's Dying Earth is where DnD ripped its magic system, but it supposed to take place in the far future, or how the Cona stories are generally categorized as low fantasy but are actually set in the same universe of Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, which itself seems to thematically alter between fantasy and scifi on per-story basis (Mountains of Madness is pretty obvious scifi with its ancient aliens, whereas Dream Quest of Unkown Kadath is clearly fantastical, and in between you have stuff where "magic" exists but is explained as a form of science humanity doesn't yet understand). Or how for a while psychic powers were considered something that could be real so you got a lot of scifi with characters using clearly supernatural powers like telepathy and telekinesis but framed in a "scientific" way as "psionics" instead of "magic", and treated as a branch of science rather than witchcraft.Though if you want a good definition of what makes for "real" science fiction, I think Galaxy Magazine put it well: science fiction stories explore the effect of some technology or concept on the world and society. i.e. "how would society change if we invented AI that's smarter than humans?" or "how would the inhabitants of a planet with constant sunlight react to an eclipse?".
>>78999220>The thing that makes space opera different from classic cyberpunk is with space, people can escape.Tell that to fucking Blade Runner / Do Androids Dream...The real difference between cyberpunk and space opera is purely in the THEMES and MESSAGES it explores.Cyberpunk is about Nietzschean exploration of the (mostly negative) implications that a complete freedom over our physical existence will likely bring into our lives. It's about asking whenever we are ready or not for such responsibility.Space Opera is romatic at it's core. It's about the revival of the ages of great discoveries and great empires, transposed into the space. It can feature similar elements: both can feature themes of transhumanism, or space-travel: but they each see them very differently, and use them for very different purposes and messages.
>>79000392>the only thing that even remotely approaches space-magic is the melange's future-seeingThe bene gesserit and the Voice is basically magic, anon. Especially by the later books. Dune also gene ghosts fully capable of possessing people, a man who fuses with local fauna, and full on magic wands by the end. There's also whatever the fuck was going on with Duncan-Idaho
>>78999220ID transpondersrecall codesfuel & maintenance needs
>>78989177>If you havent read a sci-fi novel in ten yearsThat is not what I said.> I have not read a sci fi novel released in the last ten years.I have been reading a number of sci-fi classics of old over the last ten years.>tropes could have been ditched nearly a decade ago and you've been missing out on some good shit.I do look at the best sellers list on and off. Is it possible? More then that it is likely. However it is a matter of shifting thru of sea of novels that just are not good to find them. Can you or anyone else here name any good sci fi that came out in the last ten years?
>>79000524>The bene gesserit and the Voice is basically magic, anon.I've read only the original ones, and no. The Voice is, like everything Bene Gesserit, treated as a strictly speculative concept: relying on social, psychological and biological engineering specifically. It's about biological reaction of human being to very specific modulations of sound. Maybe later on it falls apart, but at least in the first three or four books, these things are treated very rigoriously. Man fusing with a worm is the most crazy part, and as I mentioned, the only thing that can be considered magic: the Melange and it's influence on humans. But then again, bioengineering is a fucking CORNERSTONE of the settings. Bioengineering. Not magic. Same goes for Gholla. As for the Ghosts, this is explained through the reference to cellural genetic memory, which again, while largely abandoned, was considered very much within the realms of scientific possibility when the books were being written. And it further ties to the theme of long-lasting genetic manipulation and breeding, hyponsis and auto-hypnosis, psychological engineering and so on.The laws of the Dune world are presented as rigorious, and explanations, even while at times soft-sci-fi ones, are carefully provided, and inform and guide the story. This is not even remotely true of SW. It's a completely different type of fiction, and a completely different type of beast.
>>79000021Like I said—not that many successful Fantasy films. Most fantasy films are like the old Hercules films either artistically or financially.
>>79000032>How the FUCK did a genre called "imagination" became famous for it's lack of imagination?!DnD
>>79000392I think this is the key difference between "science fiction" and "space fantasy". There is a lot of overlap between the two, but the difference is that in science fiction everything is supposed to be based on science, even if sometimes the science has since then been disproved (i.e. genetic memory or psionic powers), or it's just a in-story handwave to allow thing that aren't possible in the real world (i.e. force fields and FTL travel exists and based on scientific discoveries that we haven't found yet), whereas in space fantasy actual magic exists, often alongside and separate from science. Like Star Wars as a setting mostly follows standard soft SF tropes, with most of the technology based on what the writers thought looked cool rather than any rigorous science-based speculation but in-universe it's still supposed to be product of advanced technology. But then you also have the Force, a mystical energy that lets people sensitive to it perform supernatural feats.SW isn't really the best example of space fantasy as aside from the Jedi and Sith existing it follows SF conventions (like if you set a SW story on a random outer rim planet shortly before the original trilogy it would play like a standard SF story as there's no Jedi around and most people haven't even heard of the Force or think it's a myth), but the difference is more clear when you get to the more fantastical end of the spectrum like Spelljammer and Starfinder, which are literally DnD and Pathfinder but in space.
>>79000487Fiction scratches an itch for a mythology that has been explained away by science
>>79000687I feel like that distinction doesn't need to be made otherwise our definitions will become so granular that they won't apply accept to a few rare cases.
>>79000583>relying on social, psychological and biological engineering specificallyJust like the force is merely an energy field that certain people are gifted in manipulating. >these things are treated very rigoriously.Many fantasy settings have an autistic scientific rigor behind their magic.>this is explained through the reference to cellural genetic memoryAnd yet later DI is capable of recalling memories he shouldn't have because they were from Gholas whose cells had been utterly destroyed and the new Ghola made from backup cells. And facedancers became capable of memories of those they killed to the point of actually believing g themselves to be that person. It's all very mystic and mythical, even when there is an attempt to explain things.
>>79000487Given how godless and modern minded most fantasy is, I doubt that.
>>79000708I feel there is a distinction, but it's kind of a sliding scale. Like SW can really just be considered science fiction because for most part it's a space operate setting with minor supernatural elements (you could take the original trilogy and with minor retooling make the plot works without the supernatural elements: Luke making the shot to blow up the Death Star without needing to use the Force, and the like), but on the other hand you have stories that have much more in common with fantasy stories except they're set in space.
>>79000781and the story concept mutation as SW series went onboosting the character levels from pulp to superherochanging the classic pulp sf roots [and the hero's journey] into mindless virtue signalling dakka
>>79000710>Just like the force is merely an energy field that certain people are gifted in manipulating.That is such a bullshit twisting of what SW really does it's kinda sad. Come on, have some dignity.>Many fantasy settings have an autistic scientific rigor behind their magic.Not as many as you'd think, and those that do are actually often considered science fiction, despite reliance on seeming magic elements. See Ted Chiang's "72 Letters" or Greg Bears "Petra". The core is the mixture of rigorosity and relation to real world, science-related subjects.
>>79001198>That is such a bullshit twisting of what SW really does it's kinda sadSeeing as you literally have no idea what you're talking about because you admitted you don't know how ridiculous the Frank Hebert novels get, your insistence of indignity fall as short as your knowledge of Dune.>Not as many as you'd thinkElder ScrollsAnything written by Brandon SandersonWarcraft pre-WoWDnDDragon's DogmaDestinyThis is just off the top of my head
>>79001648I wouldn't really consider WC or DnD magic to be "rigorously scientifically defined". WC magic used to boil down to mages drawing power from the Twisting Nether to power their spells, either indirectly (arcane, i.e. normal magic), or directly (fel, i.e. demon-summoning warlock magic), and DnD is a bastardized version of Jack Vance's magic system but without the actual detail and thought put into it (in Vance's system magic requires complex rituals that take at least hours to complete and in order to cast a spell on the fly a wizard must memorize and perform the ritual aside from the final step, which can be finished later to cast the spell. In DnD it got simplified to "wizard has n spell slots can can put spells into them during a rest").
>>78971246>Not having FTL just compounds that problem, it doesn't solve it, because now you're in one system with a likely somewhat homogenous tech level and even more development.You can easily have backwaters on a single solar system. Traveling to the further out parts of the solar system would take months to years, realistically.
>>78971261>And you HAVE to keep space in mind otherwise it's not scifibruh
>>78977127I just hate democracy and capitalism anon it's not about the environment
>>79001998Which is why you play the genre about slaughtering natives and plundering their tombs for material gain. Interesting.
The more technology betters magic the less fun the setting is .Technology is ultimately based on real physics which are lame and magic is kino .Best sci-fi are settings where magic is clearly the more important part like 40k and star wars and Dune.Fantasy removes the boring parts all toghether .Magi-tech is an abomination
>>79002061Nomads are not a democracy . Long live the khan
>>79001648I will admit I've only read the worth-while of Herbert's work, and did not even bother with the last few and the ones written by his son, but just because the later books that nobody cared about fall appart does not change my point about the ones that actually defined the franchise.And as for your example of rigoriously and scientifically defined magic, the only one where I can't fucking straight up laugh at your face is Sanderson's work: purely because I haven't read it.The rest is as generic and losely defined as fantasy gets, there is nothing even approaching rigorous principles, and even less relating any of it to real world, science-related issues.Ironically, I've provided examples of mine, but I can only fucking guess you haven't even heard of those works. So maybe get of your mongolid ass, go and read the two short stories I've mentioned (You'll find the first one in Ted Chiang's short story collection, likely labeled "Arrival" since that damn movie (or Story of Your life and other stories if you find an older edition), the second can be found in the collection called "Mirrorshades: The Cyberpunk Anthology".Read them, and see the fucking difference. Until then, fuck off and don't bother adults when they talk.
>>79001648>Dragon's DogmaThat is 100% bullshit.
>>78970336If you do space opera then it's basically magic, if you try to get in deep it gets too complex and maybe not even fun, if not depressing. Also, a lot of times people get focused on specific things, like AI, but they ignore transhumanism, human enhancements for example. Why focus on AI, instead of making yourself ''better''?
>>78999509>At-43That's it! I wonder why that game never got legs...
>>78971278There are D&D modules with aliens and space ships.
>>79002447>If you do space opera then it's basically magic, if you try to get in deep it gets too complex and maybe not even fun, if not depressing.I think space operas are GENERALLY it's own thing, a genre that does not neatly fit in either sci-fi or fantasy settings. There are obviously exceptions, but on average, I treat them as a very much stand-alone thing. I don't expect hard-sci-fi from them, because that almost always results in people just getting completely cornering themselves trying to explain everything.If you want to still go the most strongly sci-fi note, I prefer if you just invent your own, convenient (but consistent) logic and laws instead. I think shit like Crest of the Stars does it really well, using clear and absolute technobabble, but being so consistent with it, and having is fairly layered up, that it works well, as still allows the reader to quickly catch on and feel like he can predict and judge scenarios based on the knowledge that was provided to him. It's not scientifically accurate, but it allows for gaining all benefits of the speculative fiction anyway, and lends itself to a very grounded setting, even if strictly speaking, it may all be as well magic for how it relates to our real knowledge of physics.
>>78990069As a scientist, sci fi is perfectly enjoyable. It's just that I am under absolutely no illusion that sci fi is ever actually "hard." Most sci fi is pure fantasy.
>>79009361Hard sci-fi IS a thing, and most commonly written by scientists. But it just is only a tiny portion of the whole library associated with the genre.
>>78992757This is just as true of fantasy settings. You don't solve a goblin infestation by sending plucky teens with swords into caves three at a time.If you want "realistic" justification for an adventuring party unit then your options are pretty much...>You're stuck in a bad situation and have to rely on each other to survive>You're onto something good here and you don't want to split the winnings more than five ways.or I guess as a last recourse>You're actual superheroes, nobody else stands a chance.
>>78970336SciFi requires a passing understanding of science to do well.
>>78980207>>79000091>>79000306>>79000392Seething autistsReminder that you autistic hard science ficiton faggots are what ruined sci fi as a genre.SCi fi used to be about square jawed heroes going round the universe fighting aliens with swords and rayguns and saving damsels in distress in pulpy worlds with soul and testosteroneHard science fiction faggots turned sci fi into low t nerd drivel with more of a focus on technology than on actual stories and peopleProve me wrong. You can't
>>79009719Even in 1950s you had SF magazines critizicing stories that were basically "take a western and replace all cowboys with spacemen and six-shooters with rayguns". I think the best definition of good SF is that it takes some idea and explores how it affects things (that's why SF is also known as speculative fiction). Doesn't really matter if it's scientifically accurate. You can have a good story built around some outlandish concept, but you should ask "if this is possible in this setting, what will it lead to?".
Medieval England>God made everything >Angels rebelled >Worst ones became demons>Better ones became nature spirits >Jesus died for our sins and left a bunch of relics>His mates left many too>Beowulf killed some monsters and his relations decided to go to Britain>Arthur fought off the English and went on adventures >Then the English won anyway>Then vikings attacked or something >Then the French attacked >Then the good Richard went off on crusade while Robin Hood saved us from his cunt brother John Simple. To the point. Playable and in-depth. Everything feels well rounded. Future England>Where the fuck do we even begin?
>>79002243Sanderson likes his autistic magical systems with underlying rules and explanations. Though his characters are not that good but he got better with them over time.
>>78970336>Why are fantasy settings more popular amongst players,Hell if I know, I usually have the opposite problem, every time I try and worldbuild a fantasy setting for a game it inevitably will morph into a sci-fi setting. I don’t know why, it just seems like theoretical science and future-technology excites my imagination more than mysticism and magic.
>>78970336You're not going to find a good answer because SciFi has always been more of a vidya thing whereas Fantasy has been a staple of tabletop. And it's always been like that. Sure, you've got crossover where hardcore autists demand hard realism in both genres or demand magic creating... I dunno, a shitty Ian M. Banks novel but that's it. People say good SciFi is hard, but so is good fantasy: you need consistency in your work with good characters AND a good plotline to drive it or else it's just another YA movie regardless of genre.>>78972045This.>>78974839And that's among the least of that movie's problems.
>>79009876sci fi is just a settingit doesn't need to speculate on anything if the creator doesn't want it to
>>79012884Yeah. SciFi is just a genre. You can explore those ideas if you want, I know good romance novels that explore the concept of an old couple (about the sweetest things I've ever read), I've read good mysteries that tried to draw attention to the Human Trafficking in Vegas, hell I even once read a YA novel about the immaturity and cruelty of teenagers. All of which are counter intuitive to the genre rules but they did it.
>>78970336Hard sci-fi fags drove off everyone interested in space with "Uh [phlegmy gasp] ACTUALLY, you can't be anything but a welder on some gay ass ISS because..."
>>78971465even alien style space truckers are going to be more knowledgeable and trained than a modern commercial airline pilot. hell, even the space trucker crewers who don't navigate and fly the ship still need a shit ton of knowledge and training to operate a spaceship's limited areas without killing everybody.
>>79012865>you need consistency in your work with good characters AND a good plotline to drive it or else it's just another YA movie regardless of genre.This is true. But I think the need for internal consistency is more glaringly obvious in science fiction. I think fantasy, with it’s “its magic! I don’t have to explain shit” memes it’s easier for a lazy or inexperienced writer, or GM, to delude themselves into thinking internal consistency is optional for fantasy settings.
>>79015188Hacks congregate to fantasy because it's easier to get away with writing a terrible novel? Never thought of it that way. Though it does make me wonder about Chuck Wendig.
>>79015262>fantasy because it's easier to get away with writing a terrible novel?It’s at least easier to trick yourself into thinking it is.
>>78999220Yeah. But what's the best system? Mechanically?
>>78970336Some of us still want to explore the stars.
>>79001743You can have backwaters with FTL. You just need to tune your Speed/Distance/Scope variables.
>>79000527>recall codesRadio waves travel at light speed. Any starship worth the name can be out of broadcast range before they catch up.
>>78989323 >>78989307Of course not, but the thread question was why fantasy settings are more popular than sci-fi ones, and that's the answer: because there is the idea of a Standard Fantasy Setting, but there isn't an idea of a Standard Sci-Fi Setting.Do what you want with this information.
>>79009719Weren't both poles of realism/heroic action present back when Gernsbach and EE Smith were writing in the 1920s?
>>79010088>>Where the fuck do we even begin?you 'imagine' another 8-10 lines of greentextthen you make connections between themjust like when you create fantasy worlds
>>79017380what about FTL radios?
>>79017555From the back cover:In the days of the Old Republic, exploration was the key to adventure. New worlds lay beyond the next star, and high adventure lived along the spaceways. The scout was a free spirit; an adrenaline jockey eager to plumb the depths of his own curiosity.And then came Imperial Rule and the iron grip of Emperor Palpatine. He, and his Imperial Moffs and governors, turned the scout service to... other purposes. Seeking out Rebel Bases and hunting the heroes of the Alliance, the scouts became dark shadows of themselves - spies and infiltrators under the control of the Imperial Fleet.Now, the New Republic holds sway in most of the 'civilized' portions of the old Empire, and the Scout Service has been renewed. Seeking out cultures and worlds lost or abandoned during the dark time of the Empire, the scouts are a new breed of hero facing a new kind of danger...
Non speculative Science Fiction is just fantasy.
>>78970336Cus' magic, castles, dragons and shit are cooler. Blame Tolkien.
>>79002243>I admit I don't know what I'm talking about and try to make that a point of pridelol
>>79019299Cus' Jedi, Droids, Death Stars and shit are cooler. Blame Lucas.
>>79019258With bigger budgets, explosions, and better casting?
>>78970336It's about familiarity. Most fantasy settings tend to follow the same general trends (elves like the woods, dwarves like digging, orcs are violent monsters, etc.) while with Sci-Fi, you have to re-learn the setting from the ground up for every new system that you have. I'm not trying to minimize either one, because they're both equally cool, but most people are going to have a broader understanding of generic fantasy roleplaying than specific sci-fi settings. Also, another thing to consider is that good sci-fi usually takes a decent knowledge of technology and science to present properly, and not everyone has that knowledge.
>>79019299Tolkien was an incredibly boring writer but a fantastic worldbuilder
>>79019862TrueThe dude spent hours just staring at fucking treesI think that he had a small touch of the 'tism
>>79009719>Reminder that you autistic hard science ficiton faggots are what ruined sci fi as a genre.That is a wonderful explosion of insecurity you have there, but no.Firstly, I've never even claimed that Dune is a HARD sci-fi. Second of all, while I do enjoy some hard sci-fi from time to time, I usually tend to enjoy soft sci-fi more, and space fantasy often the most. Being accurate with descriptions and functional labeling does not in any way imply personal preferences. I love me the classic starwars, more than Dune, for an example. It's just that Dune is very much a sci-fi, though not particularly hard, where as SW is just pure space fantasy.Furthermore, you are an absolute idiot and straight up wrong about the history of the genre. Sci-fi began as a speculative fiction from the start - in fact, it was primarily a DIDACTIC fiction, and only gradually transformed into less educational, and more adventure and pulp-focused genre over time.The grandfather of sci-fi, Verne, was writing his works as a more entertaining way of cataloging and educating youth on modern industrial terchnologies. Weiss, Chapek and Wells all explore social or technological implications of scientific progress. So did Asimov and Abe. I'm not even going into detail about what people like Arthur C. Clark Bradbury or Lem wrote about.The puply, genre fiction that is completely disconnected from technological and social progress and speculations about it's implications is something that was only born in the 50's and later, and it was, quite honestly, a degeneration of the existing genre. Now - a lot of it had certain naive charm. And as time went on, this originally purely TRASH by-product of the genre started gaining a new and valuable identity. Interestingly enough, mostly thanks to the Japanese influences, and it's merger with the (at the time more developed) fantastic literature.But it was never what sci-fi "was about" in the start, or at core.
>>79019377This would sound slightly less hilarious if it wasn't coming in defense of posts that argue that the "Force" in SW and the Holtzman generators in Dune are basically the same concept, and that DnD or Elder Scrolls magic is rigorious science rooted in real world consideration...
>>78970336you can do much more esoteric concepts and introduce setting mechanics of their own, while sci-fi needs to be based on the modern world (which nowadays has some technological advancements that makes many pieces of sci-fi media look horribly outdated)
>>79021281>that the "Force" in SW and the Holtzman generators in Dune are basically the same conceptNever said that. I said the Force and the Voice are equally mystical concepts loosely explained by vague pseudoscience. Nice try, though. You really seem to love writing essays about how wrong and ignorant you are.
>>79021266>The puply, genre fiction that is completely disconnected from technological and social progress and speculations about it's implications is something that was only born in the 50's and laterWhat is your opinion on Buck Rogers (1928), and Flash Gordon (1934)?
>>79021529>Never said that. I said the Force and the Voice are equally mystical conceptsWell, that is still factually wrong because the voice is explained, in concepts and terminology very much familiar to our scientific knowledge. The books go into quite lenght about it.Meanwhile, the force is literally divine. It even has ingrained absolute morality as inseparable part of it's mystical properties.>>79021560Never cared for comics for little children that much. What is your opinion on The Last Man (1826), Two Planets (1897), The Iron Heel (1907) R.U.R. (1921) or Krakatit (1922)?
>>79021823>that is still factually wrong because the voice is explained, in concepts and terminology very much familiar to our scientific knowledge.Yes. They used biotechnology to develop voice magic. Just like the Force uses bioenergy fields to develop telekinesis.
>>78974578The only real answer in this stupid thread.>>78989144You clearly don't know how science works. Pouring billions of dollars doesn't mean the human race can solve any problem.
>>79021823>Never cared for comics for little children that much.>doesn't know that Buck Rogers originates with the novellas Armageddon 2419 A.D. and Airlords of Han, not the comic strips>pivoting from "I love classic Star Wars more than Dune" to "lmao Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers are kiddy comics, I'd never read that"Embarrassing.
>>79024450Kid, you want to talk about pivoting from original points? How about the original point that Dune and SW are the same thing because both have "space swords"?Or the fact that you claimed that sci-fi was never about technology and scientific progress, then providing fucking Flash Gordon as evidence.In contrast to you know, fucking Verne, Wells, Capek, Oliver or Clarke or Crichton.And yes: Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers - which by the way appear two three decades after most of the books I've mentioned, are trash for children. Nobody in the fucking universe except fat american retards who committed their whole life to making the fucking Comic Guy from Simson's look positively enlightened would ever give a flying fuck about either. They are irrelevant child grabage for retarded americans. And you are trying to set them up comparable to works of people like Olivier, who came up with the idea of Alien invasion, or Capek who literally invented the word "robot"?REALLY?How fucking pathetic can you get?
>>78970369hard sci fi is both hard and hard to make interresting for a tabletop game.sci fi with no thought put in is just soulless fantasy