How do you make a monotheistic setting work?
>>789562961. make one god2. stop there, do not make any further godsany other questions
Make evil or neutral god that won't outright kill everything and just wants to see everyone suffer
Have many gods, but one of them has convinced everyone that the others are all devils.
>>78956296I just combined elements of monotheism and polytheism.>God is not perfect >Managing the world was too much for one god>he split himself into multiple personalities. >Each of these personalities have an avatar they can send to earth >Each avatar is made out of a different metal The personalities of the god aren’t just generic “gods of x” they represent many things.
>>78956296don't build everything around religion? retarded question
>>78956296You best start believing in monotheist settings. You're in one. :^)
>>78956484I don’t know much about Hinduism, can the Hindu gods oppose each other? In my setting they can’t, they're all united.
>>78956296Keep christcuckery out of it. Its very hard to do because most people pushing for monotheism in games are 14 yo that became """tradcath""" after looking at some deux vult memes from /pol/.
>>78956296God loves you, god is great but evil has both power and physical force on the world.>>78956527you need to go back to wherever you came from
>>78956510All 300 million hindu gods are facets of one all powerful god. They can oppose each other though and get into fights with each other.
>>78956527>Keep christcuckery out of it.What’s counts as christcukery? Being a cuck and not fighting for your beliefs? Turning the other cheek?
>>78956563Thanks for the info.
>>78956527I like ripping off Zoroastrianism with the juicier bits and pieces of Hebrew mythology for my settings.
There's only one God, but anyone who gets strong enough can climb up to the heavens and try to kick his ass. If they kill him they're God. The current God has been around for as long as anyone remembers only because he cheats and prevents the strong from growing strong enough to challenge him.
>>78956527Based, "tradcaths" are so annoying
>>78956296I would suggest having it be monotheistic
>>78956426All you really need is classic monotheism>You can call God perfect by definition if you want to, but that doesn't really mean anything because it doesn't mean he's good by the imperfect standards of "lesser creatures">Conflict amuses God and he regularly plays different sides against each other on purpose>Everything is already exactly the way God wants it, but go ahead and beg him for things if you want to, he thinks it's funny>Hope you're ready for contradictory commands and wild, unpredictable mood swings
>>78956296>god is all-powerful, all-knowing, and 100% benevolentnow just take away one or more of these things
just make it real life
>>78956296You run D&D as normal, but secretly choose one of the gods. If a cleric or paladin doesn't have that god written on their character sheet, none of their abilities work.
>>78956296You don't. Monotheism is an absurd thing to believe in.
>>78956527I agree with what you are trying to say, but you are acting like a little bitch, so fuck off
>>78956296>There is only one god>But there are dozens of churches dedicated to different interpretations of that one god, with wildly differing claims and doctrines>There are also a lot of underground cults worshipping gods that definitely don't existThere you go, you keep the religious conflict element within a monotheistic framework. If anyone objects, or points out what a fucking mess that has added to the setting just tell them that it's "realistic".
>>78956527basedSun God is best though and no one will convince me otherwise.
>>78956296With saints, ala Darklands.
>>78956296look up Mithraism
>>78956296Well, should there be a Devil equivalent? If so, how powerful should they be in comparison to the deity? What about angels or something similar?
>>78957435>god is all-powerful, all-knowing, and not all-benevolentGod is a malevolent entity that enjoys seeing the suffering of man or a distant architect who doesn't care for his creation.>god is all-knowing, all-benevolent, and not all-powerfulGod is a loving creator who diligently sculpted and watches over his creation but is helpless to intervene on a grand scale for his power, though great, is rivaled and finite.>god is all-powerful, all-benevolent, and not all-knowingGod is an immensely powerful thoughtform predating thought who forged all things through instinct and is as blind to the mystery as anyone else, but they intervene in rooting out evil where it leers its head.>god is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-benevolent but paedophilia, huntington's disease, and constipated shit exists because he is testing mankindKikery.
>>78956319fp mf bp
>>78962855Jews are God's chosen people
>>78962891According to jews
>>78962275This is how I did it for one of the campaigns we ran. There is one worshipped god in the land, but each church/cult is centered around saints with different virtues / spheres of influence. Basically christianity but with a much bigger influence on the saints. People in that setting believed in the god but worshipped the saints, and clerics receive their thematic powers off the saint they worship. Which now that I think about it is basically the same as having a pantheon of a major and minor gods that ascended from humans
>>78960761I'm doing something very similar. There is only one God, but he has different aspects/name/monikers. So, much like how the Christian God is known as "The Lion of Judah", "The Lamb of God", and how he died for our sins - in the setting this would be expressed as the Single Deity being known as "The Lion of War" whom godly commanders pray to for the defense of their country, and the "Meek Lord" who helps the downtrodden, and finally "The Martyred Savior" who inspires selfless acts of good throughout all his followers. One Deity, multiple aspects that anyone can worship. Assign domains as appropriate. Also, it helps to have an evil counterpart.
>>78962761Meme religion with no surviving written sources? What's about it?
You can't. Thus the moral failure of monotheistic societies. Return to pagan.
>>78963911Go suck some more dead men's dicks for magic, Odin.
>>78956563One of two of them are the God gods though, depending on who you ask. Vishnu or what's his face.
>>78956568Yea wondering that too. What exacly IS christcuckery.
>>78956296In the spiritual and supra-physical sense, God has already won. Evil was destroyed, all creatures' souls were saved, and paradise were declared across the universe, and indeed all universes. However, God exists outside of tangible reality and space-time, nor does he experience time linearly, meaning this perfected state of the triumph of good does not intersect directly with the "real" world until the End of Time, nor does it retroactively affect what, to humans' limited understanding of 4-dimensional reality, is "the past". Therefore the supernatural forces of evil still pose a threat that must be dealt with by mortals in order to preserve the state of reality until such time as God's sense of reality coincides with mortals' sense of reality. There you go, I made a cosmological reason to justify monotheism in your setting while also having epic battles (that also happens to be identical to a certain not-subtly-disguised real-world eschatology). Incidentally this also reconciles fate and free-will.also fuck jannies and fedoras
>>78964051its anything self-proclaimed aryans dislike
>>78956296Have a creator god.That god is the only god.Humans are stupid, so they're going to start worshiping other things or just making up nonsense.Humans are stupid, so they're going to start making wildly weird interpretations that fly in the face of the god, so divine intervention will keep the right ones around, but alas people will always remain stupid.Boom.Boom.
>>78964146You did well.
>>78956296>How do you make a monotheistic setting work?Just like in real world: I don't, because it can't work.
>>78964009Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver, and Shiva the destroyer. Still one god though, just aspects of him. Like the Christian trinity, but with 300 mil instead.
>>78956296Plain monotheism is incredibly boring imo. Either pull of a henotheism or just go with good old polytheism.
>>78956393Good thing as well because He's right. No point in worshipping larpers.
>>78967626They're treated as different gods, anon. One god splitting into 300 million different gods.
>>78962903Has there ever been a religion that labeled someone else as god's chosen people? Half of the utility of religion is justifying anything you do as morally correct because the creator has your back.
>>78968658To my knowledge no, it's a purely Abrahamic concept. Not even Zoroastrianism, the religion that Judaism was based on, had this chosen people thing. It's because of Jewish history and diaspora really, not of pure theology. Though I'm sure if you stretch definitions long enough you'll find a few.
>>78968658yeah basically every single polytheistic one of course the precise language used is different, the notions of ethnocentric egotism based on religion is hardly exclusive to Judaism, and the same meaning is expressed from traditional China's "Mandate of Heaven" to Greece's "Athens">>78968831lol what a retard
>>78968463Yes and no. They're still a PART of one single deity, despite being separate. EVERYTHING is a part of that one deity despite being separate.Religion doesn't have to make sense to non practitioners, and often doesn't. Buddhist's idea of "prfect existance and non existance" once you become enlightened is a giant "what?". As is the whole idea of the Tao. If you can define it, it isn't the Tao.That's why often religion is ridiculed, because "it doesn't make sense". Should be "it doesn't fit into what I understand", but many of us dont' want to admit we're wrong.>>78969106You misunderstood the anon's question. Someone ELSE. As in, imagine if the Jews declared the Egyptians God's chosen people instead of themselves.
>>78969106>of course the precise language used is differentSo it's not the same in most cases>China's "Mandate of Heaven"Which was primarily a political philosophy, though I guess ancient China WAS very sinocentric>Greece's "Athens"Total irrelevant bullshit. Where do you even get this stuff from?
>>78969232Why do you think Athens called their city after their favorite god?
>>78969375Because they chose to honor the goddess of wisdom? Since their city was the most cultured in matters of knowledge? Though scientifically it has been accepted that Athena took her name form Athens and not the opposite, despite the founding myth.This has shit to do about some chosen race of people though.
>>78969573>in their mythology, Athenians were CHOSEN as Athena's special people>this has nothing to do with gods choosing peoples though
>>78960761This. Gives lots of potential for intrigue and plot twists
>>78969690Just as Sparta worshipped Ares AND Artemis and....wait a minute....Syracuse ALSO worshipped Athena as their patron goddess. Would you look at that, not so chosen after all.... Just as Delphi, Delos, Eretria, Epidaurus, Miletus and Thebes worshipped Apollo as their patron god. Guess Apollo people were even more chosen than the rest then. Or rather Apollo was. And yet all of these people and cities honored the other gods as well and, of cource, above all: Zeus the Big Guy.Besides, as I said earlier:>"The designation of Athena as patron of Athens occurred during the Great Panathenaea in 566 B.C"Meaning many centuries after the city's foundation with that name. Talk about some major chosen-ness....Fact of the matter is none of these things equate to Judeo-Abrahamic "we are the one supreme god's chosen race". Not the same religions and not the same context.>>78969712based retard
>>78969215"Progressives" tore down Christianity over being closed minded, smug, censorious, etc, and then rebuilt mostly just the things they had claimed were the problem with it, so that makes them a religion in my opinion. They unironically consider African Americans to be the chosen people of evolutionary supremacy.
>>78970097Just as Christianity (literally) tore down old gods and belief systems before it as being close-minded, smug, etc etc because they either didn't agree with christian dogma or they didn't understand them. The example with the Africans you mentioned belongs to the new rising state religion in the West (in the US at least) called "Wokeism". Search "Church of Woke" and you'll see what I mean. Modern true Christians are like the polytheists of Rome just before new, cool and hip Christianity started taking over.
>>78956296D&D.Literally every church and cleric is monotheistic.
>>78970293Yep, just with less pedophilia and orgies. I think you missed the point where I was answering what religion had ever chosen a different people as the chosen ones. That belongs to the overwhelmingly white progressive university students and professors.
>>78969690>in their mythology, Athenians were CHOSEN as Athena's special peopleIIRC, wasn't thee a contest between Athena and Poseidon?
>>78956296Have like 10 different religious organisations all based on one original religion and all worshipping the same god but focusing on different aspects of specific interpretations of that religion's theology.
>>78957358Old Testament Yahweh is a bitch ass nigga. Can't even win against chariots made of iron.
>>78956527This post feels like a vampire kvetching when it sees a crucifix.
>>78968272>henotheismI have literally never heard of that before.
>>78978202It's typically only used by scholars or pseuds on the internet pretending to be scholarsEveryone else just uses the more honest term "polytheism"
>>78968658>Has there ever been a religion that labeled someone else as god's chosen people?Evangelicuckism
>>78956296In my setting one of the major civilizations is monotheistic and objectively correct even if no mortal knows for sure, but that's mostly to satisy my own religious beliefs. Two other civilizations are polytheistic and sort of share a pantheon and the last is atheistic
>>78962761I feel like Mithraism gets too much of a good rep, especially from the people who hate freemasons, hollywood pedo jews and the reptiles in the government, aka the kind of secretive seedy underground cabal orgy cults that Mithraism was.
>>78969690They were chosen in athenian mythology...You should figure out by now that the athenian version of classical mythology is the surviving one and they were a spiteful bunch. It's why Theseus rears his head in myths where it doesn't make sense for him to, because Athenians fucking loved him and they wanted to put him on the same level as Herakles. It's also why Hera constantly comes off as a super-cunt, because she was beloved by Argos and Mycenae, cities that Athens feuded with.
>>78969950>worshippedYou're missing the key point here but you sound like someone up his ass after watching Youtube experts so it's no wonder.
>>78956568>>78964051Christcuckery (imo) is when someone is an avid and vocal Christian but who has not done enough study to really understand it and who doesn't have answers to the basic questions. I was raised extremely Christian (in a Pentacostal-adjacent church called Nazarene) and even though I'm atheist, I know all of the Bible. Anyone who is purportedly Christian who doesn't understand that scripture they claim to love is a useless christcuck, allowing themselves to be bossed around not because they like and agree with a concept but because they seek to belong to a group they find desirable.
by not being a shit GM, but i guess that's impossible for you
>>78980117>proddy turned atheist calls strangers christcucks on Mongolian throat singing forum based on his proddy childhood habits which are obsolete to him now that he is an atheist
>>78980117>pentecostal is a stupid atheist who hates christians while pretending to know the bibletell us something we don't know
>>78956296don't make the god all-powerful, all-knowing and good.Make his interference in mortal realm rare enough to leave place for adventure.
>>78974366Old testament YHWH isn't a monotheistic god. He forbids those who entered a blood pact with him from worshiping other gods because he's jealous, not because he's the only one existing.
>>78956296Unless they're strictly non-interventionist, what's the difference between having a monotheistic God in a setting and having a dmpc?
>>78980771>>78980790the jokes write themselves
>>78956296Neutral God that doesn't mess with mortal affairs unless is extremely necessary (or a flood setting where he messed a lot, then flood happened and decided to stop).If you need other divine beings, use lesser beings like angels as sort of "pseudo gods", kinda like in the real world where people adore Jesus or Virgin Mary like a god
>>78956296Why using the God of Abraham, of course!
>>78985612The idea is that Jesus IS god.>Before Abraham was, I AM.Mary is just the ark of the covenant. Extremely holy, but not god.
>>78956296other 'gods' could just be super natural gents with a great amount of power. Some yield to the True God, the others are too prideful and would smite you for even speaking about it
>>78991653Tell that to a church in my country that is filled with mary statues and paintings decorated with gold/jewels and only 1 wooden cross in the whole building
>>78980790>t-t-t-t-they just don't understand the BiblePure, unadulterated cope
>>78970293>Modern true ChristiansOxymoron. If Christ beheld 99% of the modern churches in the United States he would vomit.
>>78964189Say what you will about Paganism, at least they're not compromising their white identity worshipping the god of the Jews.
>>78956296having one god doesn't mean he has to be all powerful. That's really all there is to it.
>>78995296Do you not see the irony in a vociferous anti-christian being borne from a lifetime spent with arch-heretic pentecostals? That's like a Cathar complaining that the church is persecuting them for being anti-natalists who put pregnant women to death
>>78995323>If Christ beheld 99% of the modern churches in the United States he would vomit.Please, no more than 75% at most, the United States is a quarter Catholic and growing.
>>78995372Are you implying that other denominations have 100% retention rates, especially in the west? Surely you're not that retarded.
>>78995404The modern Catholic church isn't recognizable by the standards of Christ's age either, and I'm not even just talking about the fact that it's a pedophile ring.
>>78995154You know, I was only Christian for a few years in highschool, but I never really understood how a fixation on this saint or that invalidated your belief in god. I know that Jesus was human, that's the point, but nevertheless no one is Jesus. "Be more like Jesus" is a compass pointing, it isn't a road map. I think you should make peace with the idea that all churches are trying to approach Jesus and that they all have different strategies for doing so. Anyway, >control-f "Eru">0 resultsMuch shame /tg/.
>>78995436>but I never really understood how a fixation on this saint or that invalidated your belief in godit doesn't, it's just a bad faith strawman cope by muslims and fedoras to justify their sense of self-superiority, same with other myths like "the Christian Dark Ages"
>>78995486Speaking of cope.
>>78956296Singular God, with a pantheon of saints appointed by God to pledge oneself too. This lets there be one God, while allowing for a variety of "deities" for the party to worship, and the conflicting ideas that come with that.
>>78996165what about Arch-angels instead?You could have one for each virtue that the God represented. Kind of like the Hindu idea above about multiple facets of one God, with his archangels being manifestations of certain aspects of his holiness (Kind of like how the angierus council in Diablo is born from the primary traits of a deity)
>>78995436May be different beliefs, but growing up I was full on christianity, and we were taught that worshipping Jesus was as valid as worshipping God or the holy spirit, and the Virgin Mary was a protestant thing, and then a priest said:"The main difference is that we love Virgin Mary as she is our mother, protestants respect Virgin Mary as she is the mother of Jesus"So..basically...since she is our mother, we are Jesus, thus the "be like Jesus" compass. But this point I just don't know
>>78995436Let me explain the sperg out from the churches in my area (Rural south evangelist).They're VERY big on the "no idolatry" thing, and view veneration of anyone BUT Jesus as that, because that means you're putting your faith into another being rather than the singular god.Additionally, Evangelists are extremely territorial assholes who tend to look for any and all reasons to hate other denominations (Even amongst fellow evangelists) so they can point and go "SEE, *WE* are the ones following TRUE christianity, those ones over there have it all wrong and all going to hell! Now we feel better(smug) about ourselves!"Chick tracts aren't an exageration of rural sects of American christianity, they really are that autistically full of themselves in regards to other chistians views on things.
>>78996953Do you have the image that shows what happens to those two next please?
>>78997361you mean God throwing them in hell?
>>78956296What’s the challenge exactly?
>>78996801You do this you get into the rabbit hole that's the difference between worship (reserved for God) and veneration (allowed for Mary, Joseph, the Saints, the Apostles, Icons ((Crosses and images of the previously mentioned figures)) and so forth).
>>78996004Yeah what about it?
>>78997584Sure I guess, but why did God do that?
>>79000208You'd have to read the whole tract to get the idea, but I stated pretty much why in my assessment of evangelicals above: They're not "PROPER" christians, so God will throw them into hell. Chick tracts (and a good number of evangelicals) operate on the principle that there is only one "True" christianity (that they are the denomination of of course), and if you're not doing that 100% to the letter God will tell you fuck you, I hate you.Specifically, in this tract, the Christians being barbecued are a group of missionaries. They do alot of good work building missionaries and helping people in other countries suffering from famine and diseases, trying to make their lives better to show them the benevolence of God. Then they get on a plane.A murderer (exmurder I should say) who just got out of prison pops up to them says, "Hey, I'm an ex murderer who converted. How are you guys? I bet God is going to give you SO MUCH MORE REWARDS THAN OTHERS when you get to heaven!" (He explicitly says that their rewards going to be more than his for all the work they've done, as if you go to heaven for a reward and God gives you pay like its merc work).The Missionaries thank him, state that its only been with God's help that they've done all they've been able to do, and that they give him thanks for being able to help others.The Evangelical suddenly does a 180 and starts going "WAIT. HELPING PEOPLE?! what about CONVERTING people?!" and starts hammering them about how many they've "Saved", not how many they've "helped", specifically pushing the idea that what's truly important is conversion, not trying to help others.The plane has engine trouble, they're all going down, and he keeps screeching at them about not putting converting people to christianity as their priority, and asking "Are you sure you're TRULY saved?!"
>>79000208Why do Lawful Evil gods do any number of things?
>>79000318Then they get to God, he tells them that Good works are meaningless, they do a token "You mean all the GOOD people in the world who help others will be damned if they don't convert?" and he tells them "fuck yeah"The basic idea of "You cannot get to heaven through good works" isn't bad to present, but the entire comic (And chick's view in general) Is utterly revolting.Basically, God is a sociopath who only cares about if you're sucking his dick. As good works won't get you to heaven, he rationalizes that they are therefore WORTHLESS, as the only things that matter are what will get you into heaven. Its incredibly sociopathic, as its a view that the only important thing about christianity is saving yourself, not having empathy for others or seeking to help those in need (Because, once again, good works won't get you into heaven).It completely misses the entire point of christianity that you should WANT to help others if you truly are seeking to do Gods will, and in helping others show Jesus to them in yourself-- this will in turn bridge to conversion.But, like I said, its the evangelical "Fuck you, got mine" philosophy of seeking only what's important for yourself, I.E. saving yourself, so converting others is the only thing that matters.
>>79000346Kinda strange Evangelicals aren't big on developing AI. AI would be a docile tool that could be easily "converted" and mass produced for more "conversions". This way Evangelicals would be able to easily convert thousands of artificial personalities without doing as much lifting their butts, ensuring their entry into Heaven. It's like rotating mantra drums for good karma. Also I can't shake off the feeling there is even more sociopathic side to it. If conversion is all that matters making people abandon God would make them open for conversion again. So one could encourage evil, sin and despair to turn people away from goodness and acquire money and power then convert them for spiritual benefit. Rince and repeat, turn wavering people into reusable batteries.
>>79000625computers don't have souls. Only humans, being made in God's image, can have souls. Like how the little mermaid didn't have a soul in the original book because she wasn't a human.
>>78956296Uh, they just do, honey?
>>79000625Pretty sure God would take a dim view of that kind of rules lawyering. Depending on the denomination, intent is important. You gotta do good not because you'll get anything in return (much less salvation) but because doing good is good. Or because it might help you bring other people into the fold if you want to get consequential about it. Though that may be the mode of thinking that leads to Chick-ish "Good works are worthless." mindsets.
>>79000765What if we use personality replica? It should be good enough for Evangelical conversion right?
>>78956296Don't make the single God all powerful. In one of my favorite fantasy settings (some German fantasy novels) there used to be many gods.There is a world wich primarily belongs to humans and another that belongs to elves and other fantasy creatures (let's just call them fey as a catch all) .Both had their own gods. Initially they worked together and created both worlds (individually they really aren't that powerful, they even have semi mortal bodies) . Then they had a war wich the gods that created humanity lost so all of humanities gods were dead and they adopted fey gods. But After being done fiddling with their creations the fey gods fucked off.In the books it turns out one of the "human" gods survived weakened and is now manipulating things to create a monotheistic faith hellbent on destroying the fey. Meanwhile the fey are trying to hunt him down initially believing him to just be some powerful demon. Its a mix of very low fantasy on the human side and very high fantasy on the fey side.The human God also granted a few gifts to level the playing field against the superior magic of the fey (ordinary humans can use magic at all). One being gunpowder especially due to the fact that lead just happens to prevent using magic. The other is by having offspring with some humans giving them the ability to use magic via absorbing ambient magic. Wich happens to kill any magical creature nearby by sucking them dry.The description is a bit whacky all of it takes place in the background through several novels with their own stories. And neither the human nor the fey protagonists are evil.
Chronicles of Thomas Covenant made it work pretty well.
>>78956527Jews, christians and muslims believe in same god
>>79003961Christcucks are, by far, the most prevalent and annoying posters here though. Especially because 9/10 times they are low IQ americans cuckservatives.
>>78956296Delegation. Regular gods are just angels or other divine servants responsible for spheres or domains as designated by Big G. Dark gods may or may not be in rebellion against the intended order.
>>79003961The question is which god.
Can't help but notice this thread's still going after >>78956319 sorted it out?
>>78956296God is all powerful but unable to act on his own will. Every century one mortal is selected as god's representative obtaining the power of create miracles and is called God's Avatar. Depending of the Avatar the one god can be good and merciful, evil and destructive or passionate and vindictive. Avatar's life is limited so the god's setting is always changing but a the same time only one.
>>78956296I like how Brandon Sanderson managed it in Stormlight ArchiveBasically it's one god that everyone worships or have the majority of believers, then there's Saints that are actually powerful and have a meaningful rol (like a warrior, a diplomat, a artist etc.), and finally there's other powerful beings that aren't 'good' like the single god of the setting or even being worshipped.
>>79010639Alright, sounds interesting. Can you please tell us more about the deities in question please?
>>78956319Accidentally made 2 gods, what do I do with the extra?
>>79014525make it satan
>>79014858This.Either that, or have the second God be the "true" god and the first one having banished them.
>>79015264Lmao you'll never be a cool kid, fucking satan-worshipper
>>78956296>There is one god>Everyone worships this one god>Yes, even the monsters and farm animals>There are no atheists because hell is a real place you can just go to>Likewise heaven, but their standards for letting people cross the border are much more stringent>Saints and angels are venerated in much the same way minor deities would be under polytheism, but they're decidedly not GodsAny questions?
>>78956296DM is GOD.
>>79015924That would be more Gnosticism (Demiurge is the being ruling the "Physical" universe and the old testament "God", while the "true" god is farther out and spiritual and the one who sent Jesus. )
>>79014216Well, it was a year or so when I read the first 3 books and I don't remember quite well, but here I go (Also, all the books of Brandon Sanderson have a shared universe called the Cosmere, so I'm going to skip those details about it and try to tell the Vorinism)There's the Almighty, a force of good and creator of mankind. The thing is that obviously there are various countries there are various religions in which He is worshiped in many of them, The Almighty is All seeing and All knowing God, the embodiment of Honesty, Wholesomeness and Purity. Theologists belive that the Almighty have a so long fight agains the Voidbringers, monsters that are inside men's heart. He is representend by The Double Eye, a holy symbol that represents the plants and animalsThen there are The Heralds, servants of The Almighty and worshipped in Vorinism. So long ago, the Humanity was always attacked by the Voidbringers in an event they called Desolations, cycles that always bringed chaos, death and destruction, but then the Heralds appear, forming the Radiants Knights, defenders of Humanity with god-like powers depending of the Order they were part of. That was an Era where the Heralds where also seen as Deities. But this would come with a terrible cost, because after a Desolation was stoped, they will be casted to Damnation (the equivalent of Hell) and suffer millenia of torture until the next Desolation. But one day out of nowhere they just said that mankind have finally won agains the Voidbringers, and that day was called the Last Desolation.There are more of less details about the Heralds (that by the way i'm using the wiki to tell you all of this) but those things can be known in the first book and better explained in the firsts three, so I didn't want to make any spoilers if anyone want to take a look and start reading it
>>78956296I thought Demon Souls was quite neat. It was weirdly refreshing to me to hear a fantasy setting where it's a singular "God" rather than "Gods". The Old One Miracles/Soul Magic twist was solid too.
>>78956296Do Polytheism, but instead of gods, it's saints and angels of the one main god.
>>78974366What if you don't see miracles anymore because God is an archfey and his power is blocked by iron?
>>78956296GOD still as not come back to gas station, what do we do now?
>>79016427and then we got the mess that is Dark souls.
>>78956296At what level of prominence and power does the idea of a single deity with numerous spirits/angels serving them cross over into a powerful creator deity with minor deities serving them?
There is many ways. Evil God. Neutral God. Good but not all-powerful God. Eldritch Abomination God.The theme of your campaign setting will dictate what kind of Monotheistic Entity you want.Read a few essays over Theodicy and Theology.You will have to answer:Why your monotheistic God created your world?Why your monotheistic God let people suffer?This monotheistic God of your, does him even exist or it's fruit of centuries of religion development (polytheistic, monolatric, henotheistic until monotheism)?To which purpose does your God created the Universe?Does him have a need for worshippers or being worship?Is him (kind of) a person/Self? If he is just the Universe, it's pantheism, not monotheism. HOWEVER, a few mystic branches of Abrahamic Religions have this emphasis.I think the best solutions are:-like everyone else already said: "do polytheism, but with saints and angels" ;-Reducing your God's presence to Divine Providence in the setting, and wrapping Him in an Aura of Mystery, so no one can really question why he does what he does. Players can just speculate, but you never give them the answer. That's how the sausage in rl is actually made.
>>79019012>a few essaysAny particular recommendations please?
>>78956296First do away with alignment, at least the moral axis. Everyone prays to the same god, and that god answers the prayers that line up with their inscrutable plan. Or clerical magic is (like magic user magic) untethered from a divine source, and is just a scientific reality in the world.
>>79023884>do away with alignmentAgreed, alignment the way D&D does it is cringe.
>>78956296What about making a polytheistic fantasy setting work, especially if the gods exist in-setting? What mistakes do most worldbuilders make when designing a pantheon?
>>79028821>What mistakes do most worldbuilders make when designing a pantheon?you said it yourself>the Gods existing in-setting
>>79029059>the Gods existing in-settingWhy is that so bad? You need gods for divine magic to be a thing, right?
Honestly, all this stuff about basically having multiple lesser gods but a top god seems to more or less be the same as having polytheism, just with a minor caveat.If you truly want to keep that singular God mystique, make it so the God is either very distant and doesn't interfere in mortal matters (Think how Crom doesn't do anything in Conan, or how current Abrahamic God is depicted as not doing direct action), with everyone reverring him or knowing he exists, but without things like clerical magic or whatnot (Druids would still be able to fill the healer role for the party).
>>79028821>no penisthat is very CLEARLY not slannesh.
>>79031591>You need gods for divine magic to be a thing, right?Look at how Dark sun or Eberron handles clerics/divine magic even without an explicit participation of gods.The setting that I'm homebrewing have all magic (except psionics and chi) to derive from the manipulation of an invisible energy field called ether. There are intelligent beings that inhabit the ether whose only goal is to maintain the ether flow and structure. These beings are interpreted as gods by some mortals and entire religions are based on worshiping them, even though they hardly fit the usual definition of god. Mortal clerics cast "divine magic" by summoning these beings and praying for a specific effect. I know many people don't like settings without gods (mostly christcucks though, so I don't care), but this approach allows me to create divine magic mechanics that are substantially different from arcane magic, as clerics are basically JRPG summoners.
>>78956319Put me in the screenshot.
>>79007449"all-powerful" and "unable" are mutually exclusive terms
>>78956296It already works.
>>78956296What about one deity with multiple aspects, like the Holy Trinity?
>>79035367Yeah, it’s the whole “can God make a boulder that he couldn’t lift paradox” in action.
>>78956319I made a god, but I have some extra bits left over, what do I do with those?
>>78956527What about gnostic concepts?
>>79039497>extra bits left overWhat exactly is left over?
>>78956296Just make it like real life. There is one perfect God, but lots of rebellious angels/people/other creatures whom God tolerates until he doesn't.
>>78956296>how do I make 12th century europe work as a settingknights and kingsbe a philosophy and history nerd
>>78956296These videos gave me some ideashttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1rai6WoOJUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMRxQbLUlghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CamYtVpoTNkI didnt know God had a posse and had like a civil war.So "satan' is not a being but a title?
>>79041188>globohomo artstyleJesus Christ
>>79041244Don't worry my child, just grab the ideas and let your imagination flow. Make your own art style.Like my homie Bruce Lee once said, take the good shit and reject the bad. Make it your own.
One god but differing ideas on how to worship, follow his will, his intent for us, the purpose of the material world, who can interpret gods will, role of the state etc Doesn't just have to be Catholics, Prots and Sunnis either. Anti-natalist life hating Cathars, Taiping Rebellion-style theocratic egalitarians, Sufi mystics, Sikhs all have fun roleplaying and conflict potential.
>>78956296by not doing it
>>78956296Have different sects, with differing opinions on the nature of god, looking at it technically, Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, and Jews all worship the same god, but they're absolutely different religions.
>>79040803>Just make it like real lifeOk, in my setting now a bunch of schizos claim there is invisible jew that watches you masturbate even though he doesn't really do anything and there is no divine magic
>>79043100you will never be a woman satanist
You can go three ways with this, just have a generic creator deity that everyone acknowledges and worships, like with the Light in warcraft, the Maker in DA, or Anu in Diablo.Second way is to go full Old Testament God , he has clear cut commands, is vengeful, makes miracles and gives boons and there are clear cut enemies to fight. Third is to just have a creative force, an impassioned observer or entity that created the universe and nothing else. This works best with settings that have no gods and the interesting thing here is you can have several metaphysical forces at play, but no gods or central God.
>>78956296Make a list of gods. When a player makes a cleric, he only has powers if he chose The God. If he chose another, tough break.
>>79045400The third option intrigues me, reminds me a bit of a setting that I like. What settings handle the concept well?
>>79045400The third reminds me of Wakfu. Ever seen it?
I'm trying to come up with a monotheistic/henotheistic religion which has different denominations despite their god being a physical being in a certain location.I'm thinking that this thing has five aspects (though I'm undecided if that's five seperate aspects, or four aspects with the fifth being a sort of unified/supreme aspect) and it speaks in some fucked up alien language. The highest clerics in the religion are the interpreters of this language, with one per aspect. Once upon a time all five interpreters worked together but disagreements over translation and dogma crept in until the religion began to fragment.It's not just one aspect = one denomination though. The different sects can each politic and scheme to get an interpreter role, like if Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox all had a shared pope and competed to get one of their guys in position. More interpreter positions for your denomination means that you can claim you've got a more complete understanding of the word of God and twist that to give your doctrine more weight.
>>78956296There might be a god, but he's apparently spoken only through a couple of prophets. The current prophet has declared himself the final prophet of god and he will never speak to anyone again. The prophet has founded the clergy with the help of his relatives and friends. The prophet has died without a designated heir and his lieutenants have began infighting. The religion has schisms every century or so. The clergy also hates magic users and only supports clerics, but magic isn't banned. It's just impossible to be a godly man and a wizard. Women can't be clerics. Performing daily prayers and fasting during holy months gains you small boosts. There's no difference between clerical and secular laws, so entire world plays by the same brutal rules. The religion also encourages peasants to breed as much as possible and discourages them from seeking education thereby making a huge gap between the ruling class and the common folk.
>>79039497AngelsSome of them look like they were made with the contents of a bits box.
>>78956296What would a cleric of the Judeo-Christian god or a similar monotheistic deity be like?
>>79056617>of the Judeo-Christian godWell looking at irl examples from the middle ages>Crusaders or Jihadi, though that might be more paladin>Powerful bishops, as they would sometimes go to war, though their concern was more to do with landed wealth and claims rather than free roaming adventure>Friars, before they succumbed to wealth like lots of religious orders, were itinerant hobo preachers which could fit adventuring clerics, though I don't know if there's any examples of them going to battle
>>78956296Have all the different in-game religions frequently argue about which god is the ‘real’ one, with many having weirder interpretations, but in your mind decide which one (if any) is correct. Gods shouldn’t really matter if you’re playing in a sensibly crafted world (e.g. one where they don’t actually speak to players). Just have NPC clerics (or PC clerics) derive power from their belief, it isn’t really necessary that there has to be someone on the other end of that.
>>79057796>Van HelsingHe may use holy symbols and such, but I wouldn’t call him a cleric.
>>79000346Brevity anon, please - what's the conclusion? Isn't John 14:6 quite clear?>6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. I mean:>As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not oneAfter all
>>79003961>Jews: Christ is in hell>Muslims: Christ was a cool human prophet>Christians: Jesus Christ is GodTo say they believe the same thing is laughable to say the least, anon
>>78956319fpbp, /thread, based, etc.
>>79065652That looks extremely painful. Why would a deity choose to manifest like that?
>>79069204He'a a big god
>>79056617Con man. High charisma, persuasion etc. depends on system.
>>79065452Hell doesn't exist in judaism. They all follow their interpretation of the God of Abraham, YWWH, even though they do not agree entirely what YWWH is.
>>79070871Well they have Sheol to which everybody who dies goes.
>>79070929Most Jews don't give a shit about Sheol. It doesn't have the same central place in the religion that Hell does to Christianity. Even the most secular, uneducated Christian knows about Hell. A lot of less observant Jews don't even know what Sheol is. By and large Judaism doesn't really have a whole lot to say about the afterlife, while early Christianity's focus on salvation and paradise in the next life was one of the things that made it stand out from its contemporaries.
>>79071702>made it stand out from its contemporaries.except, you know, all the other religions that had their own soteriology
>>79071702Yeah I know that. Jews also believed that after messiah worthy dead would raise from dead, so christians came up with heaven in which they are basically alive right now. Hell, as people think of it now, didn't even from bible canon. It came from Apocalypse of Peter and was later fleshed out in Dante's Inferno. Many religions had their afterlives fleshed out way before that.
>>79072076>Jews also believed that after messiah worthy dead would raise from deadSauce?
>>79039497maybe you can kitbash a messiah or something
>>78956296There used to be a pantheon, but one god went nuts and tried to wipe the others out, outlawing all worship of them.
>>79065408So We're to assume that this couple of chrstians WHO THANK GOD in their first appearance never asked God for forgiveness? They just went their entire life, devoting their lives for that matter being missionaries, NEVER once asking the being they worship and aknowledge as being responsible for everything they've accomplished, for absolvement?They're being damned for not being part of a SPECIFIC denomination of evangelism, and for having the audacity to try and help people before badgering them about how the all loving god will burn them for eternity.There's no getting around the fact that these aren't just random atheists or followers of another religion, they're CHRISTIANS, being thrown into hell by God because "Fuck you, bring me my converts you motherfuckers" like an insane narcisist. Once again, this is just straight up "If you're not part of this EXPLICIT subset of christians, you'll be thrown in hell.
>>789563191. make one god2. tell him to create the world and watch over itany other questions
>>78956296They're wrong. The monotheists are just one faction, and are wrong. There's a variety of factions and only one of them is even vaguely scientific and the emerging scientists aren't yet sophisticated enough to figure out their especially convoluted past. Think 19th century scientists but they're not on Earth or another naturally evolved planet, they're on a terraformed planet, whose fossil record "clearly" supports the monotheistic theory that this world is Faerie, it used to be part of hell and was purchased from Satan with the teind, and paying it took away the founding archfey patrons of almost every court. You can literally see the Throne in the Sky above the north polar continent. It's an ancient, abandoned cloud city that had been occupied by the original terraformers, but the Courts don't know that.
>>79072076>Many religions had their afterlives fleshed out way before that.So why did this case take so long then? What was different?
>>79074906https://www.torahweb.org/torah/2004/moadim/rhab_pesach.html>>79080141They cared about life they saw everyday.
>>79077658If they trusted for their works to save them, thinking in their hearts Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough, then I guess that might fall into condemnation? I'm not sure, I'm still fresh into this whole thing and I frankly couldn't care less about what different man-made denominations have to say; the Bible, being a word of God, is the final authority, and it says:John 3:36>“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
>>79080141BecauseFuck off bumpfag, you fucking cancer
>>79072076>so christians came up with heaven in which they are basically alive right now. Who's alive in heaven? If you mean the dead that believed in Jesus Christ, I'm pretty sure the Bible says they sleep until the 2nd coming, and the rest until the Final Judgement
>>79053574>god finishes making animals and humans>damn now I got all of these bits left over what do I do>look at bits>they're all eyes, arms and wings>hmmmmm
>>78956296You tell the setting it will go to hell if it doesn't
>>79083415Bible isn't clear about that. Jesus constantly speaks of eternal life in him, tho. Most beliefs about heaven and hell were shaped by early church, but even now christians don't really agree on that stuff.https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/when-person-dies-where-does-his-or-her-spirit-and/
>>78956319pic related>>79039497Angels>>79039712Fuck crosscuck pagans
Make him race based. This is the god of the humans, thats the god of the dwarfs, thats the god of freakshit race number 1 etc
God is an incredibly powerful but barely conscious being that has come from, or actually is, an entirely different reality. It shits out beings of varying power and intelligence, some of which can be considered its avatars, some of which can be considered its antithesis, but this way you can have demons and supernatural monsters and magic without wondering why an all powerful singular god would create shit like vampires and spiders
>>79086829cont. it also offers some form of mysterious element as to god's origins and design, if it has any, which imo a lot of monotheistic religions with a personal god kind of make pointless.
>>79085790>pr*d>calling anybody pagan
>>78956296same as IRL first you try to kill off the other Gods then you watch as their culture degenerates into barbarism & degeneracy
>>79086829Yeah there's all kinds of problems that spring up when you go monotheist, and I don't mean "can he make a rock too heavy for him to move," I mean practical problems like the epicurean trilemma, why is the universe such a hot mess if it had any kind of intelligence designing it, let alone a neutral or even vaguely benevolent intelligence, and the protestant notion of a personal deity that talks to you and has a plan for you is even more impossible to implement in any real way that does not involve the characters lying to themselves to preserve their faith. Which is kind of the point IRL; monotheism did not evolve, historically, in some kind of scientific process of a more-true solution that incorporated old data into a new synthesis, it was specifically chosen in the late Roman empire as a tool of social control for a society that had gotten too large for its original tools to work. The more obvious lies the better because the point was never to be true, the point was to make you shut up and do as you're told, so more lies weed out the intelligent. Obviously without the intelligent a society is doomed to collapse via brain drain, which the Empire did immediately after the death of Constantine.If I am expected to provide a coherent creation story and a deity that is real and self-consistent, it couldn't be like modern monotheisms; any god that can fit into the universe we occupy is emotionally unsatisfying. I would still want the crunchy, historical reality of corrupt priests scheming for power, Joan D'Arc types who are visibly mentally ill and their delusions just happen to manifest as faith, and perhaps if the players really wanted to they could find out like the Bajorans in DS9 that their god is real, kind of, but all the bullshit they invented surrounding that being is complete fiction, harmful, a destructive form of social control, etc.inb4 romeaboos ask why I didn't talk for 4000 characters about rome in a post with a 2000 character limit
>>78987922>Be cleric >Worship God of Abraham>I don't get any powers >But the holy words might make you feel better if you believe that they do >Gets shot by an arrow >Healing words don't work >Bleed out>Goblins eat me and rape my wife >Godworksinmysteriousways.jpg
>>79089705this is your brain on public education
>>79016063To make things a bit more interesting if this god truly is real and affects people he would be different in other cultures. Real Christian cultures interpret God differently and it would be good for players in a fantasy setting where everywhere they go it would be a nice change of detail.
>>79090298Opposite would be true. Real christian culture isn't based on god that actually does something and wants EVERYONE to know he is real.
>>79090254>Be cleric of the god of Abraham>My holy book literally says my faith will protect me from poisons>Get bit by snake>Still die
>>79090278Kids with shitty or otherwise retarded parents deserve a second opinion. Home schooling is just a way for people who never even deserved to have kids to reinforce cult brainwashing or similar
>>79086829More or less yeah. Put simply the two sensible ways to process such contradictory and inconsistent beings as monotheistic gods is to either not believe in them or accept that they're alien beings with incomprehensible motivations.
>>79090278What's wrong with public education? Be specific, I mean.
>>79091735>Be cleric of the god of Abraham>DM makes me roll a saving throw at the beginning of every session>Tells me that if I ever fail it my characte will have to chop off their foreskin>Not sure if he's joking or not
>>79094907The sheep need to stay poorly educated and stuck in their ways, otherwise they start looking behind the curtain.
>>79091735Well, that's your fault. If you're a snake handler and you get bit, you should have accepted that this indicates God's displeasure with you and that either your faith is impure, or that you are tainted with a sin which you have not aknowledged properly.If you are bitten as a snake handler, your proper response is to fall to your knees as you die and pray to God for forgiveness for whatever acts you may have done to anger him, and attempt to recall any sins you may have done that warranted this.You KNOW its your fault, not God's.
>>79097732You're supposed to get bit dude. The getting bit and the venom not killing you is the point.
>>79098020it says they will take up snakes in their hands, it says nothing about the snakes biting them.It DOES say they'll drink poison and live, but it says nothing about the snakes venom-- as such, it can be construed as doing a dangerous act and not being killed by it (I.E., being bitten by snakes).
>>78956296God created the universe because he was bored and views reality as "all the world's a stage." He's a thespian who only interferes when it would make the plot more interesting. Having 50,000 Orcs steamroll the humans isn't compelling, so he teaches humans magic to defend themselves, and so on.
>>79099052So, what happens if he gets bored with a world? And since most people don’t just want a single series at once, has he made more than one universe?
>>79083415No, he told the penitent thief he'd be with him that same day. Soul sleep is a American Protestant doctrine, and not something believed by early Christians.
>>78974366He's also not all-powerful either, as when the Hebrews were going up against another force the enemy overturned his plan. The Hebrews went to conquer another tribe and went to an oracle who gave a prophecy of total and unquestioned victory. They then went to war and the enemy forces fell as though rain on the windshield of a car going 80 miles over the speed limit. Once they hit the walls of the enemy capitol, the enemy leader sacrificed his son to his god in a holy ritual. The enemy god answered his prayer and sacrifice, overturning the prophecy given by the oracle, and that speeding car struck a tree so hard it fucked up the country that had sent it. The gates opened and the enemy army poured out and slaughtered them, driving them back to their capitol and laying siege to it with little to no hassle.This story is corroborated in both the Bible and on stone tablets found on an archaeological expedition, though the story changes a bit. The story above is what is found in surviving modern sources, but the enemy pov is a bit different. The Hebrews still attacked, but were routed early on and the leader never sacrificed his son to his god, instead delivering a swift and lasting blow to the Hebrew Land.
>>79101257He bumps the world over and over and over again. Sounds familiar?
>>79089705The Universe is not a hot mess though. It's finely tuned to allow life and the Earth even moreso for intelligent life.
>>79097732Do you fucking hear yourself? This is unironically what christians believe such a cuck mentality it's not even funny
>>79097732Based. Heathens will never understand. When I found out my wife was sleeping with other men I was so tempted to be angry with her, but I stepped back and thought about what God was telling me through this and I came to peace with it.
>>79104642So the entire universe was made solely to allow humanity to evolve on Earth?
>opwhat the actual fuck?Antibump
>>79108797>for humanity to evolve on EarthRead Genesis anon.
>>79098699>It DOES say they'll drink poison and liveOkay, so replace my analogy with that then. Because even faithful Christians will die if they drink a deadly amount of poison.
>>79110419>all-caps laugh and saying pathetic at the endYou're not an anime protagonist anon - if you don't agree with the human body and everything that surrounds us being finely tuned, which clearly implies sentient design, please do tell what you think is more likely the cause of it all. I'm all ears.
>>78956296Make a typical RPG setting but don't do the extra step of turning The Church (tm) polytheistic.
>>78956527RPGs are based on medieval Europe, retard. Taking Christ out of fantasy is what has ruined the genre. Look at what a shitshow ASOIAF has become. That's what Atheist fantasy gets you.
>>78956296What resources work best for advice on designing gods and the religions following them, whether they’re monotheistic deities or part of a pantheon?
>>79106235Yeah, it's the Christians who are the true cucks. Fetlife is basically a Christian ministry, right?
>>79111867Absolutely savage. I wonder what the retort will be, if any
>>79110764t. flat earther
>>79111867Well yes, God quite literally cucked Joseph
>>79110764>is all ears>claims to be perfectly designedretard
>>79110394Wine is technically a poison.
>>79111844Seconded, please post some.
>>78964146Anon, do you have a real-world source of this argument? I would like to explore it in more detail.
>>79113798Strawman. Try again
>>78956319So that's what we did wrong in the real world.
>>78956296>Everyone worships a singular god>he does not exist>actual gods don't give two fucks about worshippers and just fuck around
>>78956296I feel like these questions are from people who think an interesting setting is something that has neat and interest facts, rather than a setting that sets a stage with dynamic and tied in issues/complications that people can engage themselves in.
>>79124778What are some examples of each kind of setting please?
>>79069204He made some bad decisions when he was young and dumb and now he's stuck like that.
>>79127266It's more how people see a setting. In a given setting, people will be drawn to different things. I'll use Eberron as an example.On one hand, one might only see Eberron as cool (or terrible) because of how much written history it has, that it has a bunch of organizations, it has a bunch of nations that are different, etc. On the other hand, others might see those ideas as opportunities and hooks, and good world builders understand how dynamic real life is.Some examples of "cool ideas">one country uses an army of zombies and skellies.This is actually controversial within the setting, and the army did help the country push for amazing military victories. It gives a bad impression on them, unless you play as a member of asid nation, then you probably think theyr'e cool or maybe your grandpa got turned into one after he died in a battle.>The setting just finished a prolonged civil war and is now split into 5 countries!If you play the game the way it's meant to be played, set two years after the end of the Last War, now you have an uneasy peace between five nations with mixed attitudes. Helpful for political campaigns.>There's one country that got oblirated by a magic nukeExpand this further by understanding that this dramatic event pushed the nations to finally sue for peace. Again if played right, this happened two years ago. People are still recovering from it, so there could be a lot of issues involving a shitton of refugees.>Also it's full of robot people!Continuing on the topic of morality, these warforged have been questioning their construction. They were built just for war and violence, and they are coming to terms of it. With the nuked country, only they can survive, but understand that the warforged were exploited throughout the world for labor, so they are driven to the nuked country for acceptance, which is mostly inhabited by only warforged.1/2
>>79130571>There's a terrorist organization who worship a death cult!Sounds very bland, but they were originally a unit within a nation during the Last War. They got outlawed because they had no chill about their racism and got a bit too horny around blood. But now you have an organization players won't feel bad about just straight murdering.>It's got magic flying airships!It helps players get around and visit many different environments. In a setting with five nations, it'd be neat to hit all of them in a timely manner.There's a bunch of other elements that doesn't tie in as hard, but that's okay, not everything needs a reason, having cool ideas is sitll pretty cool.>>78956319 isn't entirely helpful even if he's completely right (fp still bp), because OP asked an incomplete question; we have no idea what OP wants to do with religion in the setting, how it ties into a possible theme. For all we know he just wants to make it monotheistic because it's quirky and different.2/2
>>78956296After I invent the first god, I don't make any more.