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Store Champs season coming up!

New friends welcome!

>What is Android: Netrunner? (3rd party mirror)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dtvARFeCvw [Embed]

>How to play Android: Netrunner (TeamCovenant)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvRwynAp5tI&list=PLmHifZPFC_JvQZA4qgdAQEarHAJKjkbhA [Embed]

>How to play Android: Netrunner (NISEI)
https://nisei.net/players/learn-to-play/

>The Unofficial fan group keeping things Running
https://nisei.net/

>"Why I Run", a hands-on demo on how Running works (replace spaces with dots):
www nagnazul com/whyirun/whyirun.html

>Looking for players in Meatspace?
https://alwaysberunning.net/

>All the available artworks:
https://anr-art-blog.tumblr.com/

>More Resources, blogs, podcasts
https://pastebin.com/rRDjAUxN
>>
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A handy visual guide for those new (or returning) to the game.
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Fun stuff up for grabs for Store Champs '21.
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How are corps dealing with the new menace that is nappy MaXx?
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Well, hello there. I'm a total noob and my knowledge of Netrunner comes exclusively from the glowing reviews I've read unfortunately I've never played it. The fact that it's an orphaned game due to WotC being dicks as usual, also didn't help and made me overly cautious about getting into it.

That changed when I found a store clearing out its old stock of FF LCGs and offering a combined pack of L5R AND Netrunner for 21€. Or 30 with 500 card sleeves.

I've been warned that the Nisei cards are proggresively moving away from FF's old game and becoming its own thing with new rules. But not so much that you can't still use them right?
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>>78530329
So uh... Can I use my core netrunner cards with this remake or what?
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>>78531674

While there is a game format that uses only NISEI (and some curated FFG cards), the day that makes that the standard format is still quite some time away.

So yeah, in the meantime, FFG cards from the later releases especially are probably good for standard play for long time more.

Eternal is quite another thing though...
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>>78531735

The short answer is yes.

That said, it depends on which core set you are referring to, but even in the System Update 21 list, there are plenty of old cards that have been saved for future play.
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>>78531674
>and becoming its own thing with new rules
The rules themselves should stay the same, so no worries there. Older cards will be rotated out though, so if you're looking to join official tournaments then the newer cards are what you need.

That said, a lot of the older cards are still in use, and the community also allows proxies instead of buying the physical cards.
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>>78531855
FFG's first core set. It is all I ever bought for Android Netrunner, but I do love the game and would love to return to it if this fan project is bringing it back.

I use to play online with the /tg/ group on octgn way way back. I miss those niggas like you wouldn't believe.
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>>78531909

There are some cards from the original core that are still legal for standard play today.

In the meantime, if you are looking for fun on Netspace, there is always jinteki.net.
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>>78531674

Btw, you came to the right neighborhood!
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>>78531948
I wonder why the entire lot isn't legal, but I presume there was some form of re-balancing that took place? Also are the card backs identical? Can I legally use these cards with the new ones?
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>>78532122

Even back during the FFG era, many of the old core cards are, to put it mildly, too strong for balanced play. They only exist now in the Eternal pool, where (almost) everything is permitted!

Due to legal issues, NISEI cards have to have different card backs from FFG ones, hence the requirement for sleeving for tournament play, but otherwise you can definitely combine both sets of cards for play (again, depending on format chosen).
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>>78531975
Is this from the World Sourcebook? Considered getting that, does anyone know if it's good?
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>>78532281
I own both the lore book and the RPG manual, and they're both really sweet. Certainly worth the price if you enjoy the Android universe.

FFG's RPG is severely underrated too. Such a fun game that has vast amounts of creative potential.
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>>78532281

Its an interesting snapshot of the Android setting yes. Pre-Flashpoint though iirc.

>>78532312

The setting could easily be expanded in many other games besides A:NR.

Now that Arkham Horror and LOTR LCGs are the only ones left being actively supported, maybe one day there might be a co-op LCG based in Android.
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>>78532430
I'd really go for a co-op game based in Android. It would be wild if you were a ground team sent to infiltrate facilities.
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>>78532223
Okay, now I get it. Balance issues.

What I just got was the core set. I'm going to play it before I decide. But if I decide to buy some expansions, there's quite a few things still available in store.

Cycles 1 to 7 are there, that is from Genesis to Red Sands. And they have 4 expansions, terminal directive, honor and profit, data and destiny and order and chaos.

Are any of those in particular more desirable than the rest?
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>>78532526

A reboot of Infiltration (sadly also OOP) into a LCG would be interesting indeed!

Can only imagine what sort of storyline would be possible in a multi-scenario campaign.

Perhaps something akin to The Heist from 2077?
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>>78532430
>Now that Arkham Horror and LOTR LCGs are the only ones left being actively supported,

Wait, what about Marvel Champions? That one only came out in 2019.
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>>78532627

Its still possible to have fun games with just the original core, but be aware that some factions are MUCH weaker compared to others.

As mentioned before, if you can get the cycles and boxes for cheap, you might as well do so.

Otherwise, assuming you are aiming towards standard play, cycles 5-7, Order & Chaos + Data & Destiny should be prioritised first.

Mumbad (cycle 5) is considered the low point of the game, while Mars (cycle 7) is bland at best. Flashpoint (cycle 6) is crazy fun, both good and bad.

Order & Chaos really powers up the Anarchs, while Data & Destiny is good for NBN, and introduces the mini-faction runners.

The earlier cycles + the other 2 boxes, do have their charm, and contain some cards that can be used in standard play as well.

>>78532679

Oh right. That as well I suppose. At least that seems to be doing reasonably well.
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>>78532627

It's a bit of a shame Creation and Control isn't available. While it is the oldest of the boxes, it contains many a useful runner card. Less so for the Corps though.
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>>78532627
As a secondary opinion, if you're looking to have the most variety of cards with the least amount of products and don't care about official tournaments/will proxy later, go with Terminal Directive (supports Weyland, HB, Crim, and Shaper) and Flashpoint (supports everyone) first. Then depending on which faction you want more of, go for a box of either Honor and Profit (Jinteki), Order and Chaos (Anarch), or Data and Destiny (NBN, mini Runner factions), and eventually snap up the other two boxes. NBN is plenty strong with just the Flashpoint cards though, so going for the other two is fine. After that it's up to your preference.
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>>78533072
Oh but if you see a couple of the Runner Championship decks, then you can probably grab those instead of Order and Chaos for more Anarch cards, since both 2016 and 2017 decks are Anarch and are decidedly good + has staple econ cards.
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>>78533146

Good advice there. The championship decks contain mostly the good stuff, although skewed towards certain factions.

And as an addendum, there are draft packs to consider as well, although they are certainly more of a mixed bag that can contain more filler then useful stuff.
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Looks like the Greens are doing pretty well in the new meta despite the rotation of Hayley. Wonder how long that will last?
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>>78531674
Welcome new friend.
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>>78533667
Wonder how much of it is conduit.
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>>78533667
So far I've been battering greens all over the place apart from that one Smoke player who shit on my sentry heavy list with Afterimage. Turns out both my Retributions were at the bottom of my deck. Now I run three since they'll help out against Nappy MaxX too. Just splat the Tranqs or Progenitor when Hivemind lands on it for maximum laughs.
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>>78536865

That is very helpful for sure, but other factions should be benefiting from it as well.
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>>78540044
It's probably down to having actual economy cards now instead of just Pawnshop or bust.
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>>78531674
>I've been warned that the Nisei cards are proggresively moving away from FF's old game and becoming its own thing with new rules. But not so much that you can't still use them right?
>>78529865
Here. When I said they're moving away from FFG's cards, I mean: >>78530384 <---Startup format. There is no FFG cards and the community is waffling on if they want to push this as a clean-break for newer players to get into since the later sets (as mentioned in your thread) are VERY HARD to find. Those cards (Kitara, R&R) are still in the "standard" format card-pool.

That said, if you aren't running tournaments, none of this shit matters: Go with your heart, if you think you'll like the game and it's a decent deal to get a majority of the collection, go for it: The worst case scenario is that you won't like the game and will have to sell it.
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>>78531674
The game is "officially" free to play in paper because NISEI said fuck it, you can just print cards out. Bulk MtG cards in a sleeve with Netrunner printouts in front work great.
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>>78540063
RIP Magnum Opus. ;____; Wasn't warping but Nisei killed it.
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>>78540433

Was it even played much in the final days of the FFG era?
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>>78542286
Ironically, the last time I remember Mopus being relevant in the meta it wasn't even in a Shaper deck. It was a Maxx deck that used Frantic Coding to dig for it (conveniently putting all conspiracy breakers in the bin) and then just kept smashing that money button for most of the game while Maxx drew/milled cards. That was some time around Flashpoint.
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>>78542286
Sort-of. There were other cards out-of-faction that benefited the Sanic speed that Runners needed in the power-creep. It's why most everyone went "buh?" when Nisei banned/rotated it.
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That spicy one of Winchester in NBN is paying my bills.
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Just came in the mail
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>>78543570

Congrats in finding a full set of those.

>>78543344

Even with the inf cost? Interesting.
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>>78542848

It would seem all the good Blue and Green cards end up in all the usual Red decks.
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>>78540063

Those new econ cards are a nice alternative to the usual rezekis I guess?
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>>78543005

I'll miss Kati Jones as well.
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>>78546343
Honestly, I don't. The System Gateway economy cards work for the most part. I dunno how competitive they are, but Kati was slower than Magnum Opus and didn't have the "Hardware/Program" protection from tags that Magnum Opus had (which only had to worry about Hunter Seeker/Salem's and Sentries).
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>>78546610

I suppose that was the point regarding Kati. She could be as good as long term econ as MO, but comes with a fair amount of possible counterplay by the Corp.

Now its just rezekis or smartware distributors if you want long term econ.
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>>78539952

Good to see Smoke still doing alright in the new meta. Kinda sad stealth crim isn't really workable nowadays.
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So I might be early days yet, but what are your hot takes on the meta going forward?
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Been waiting for gateway for months and just now got around to watching both the tutorials in the op and have sustained significant brain damage.
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Delivery just arrived.

I'm surprised by how beefy the netrunner box is compared to the 5 rings one.

Nevertheless, I have both of them now and I love 'em!

Now, the problem is setting up some kind of game in this covid ravaged world.

(Also got sleeves and two keyforge decks for cheap)
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>>78549489
Nice, have fun. The L5R box was part of the new box design for all of FFG's LCGs, the newer Netrunner core was the same size I think. Atleast the Netrunner box can fit atleast 2 cycles worth of sleeved cards.
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>>78549418

Would have thought the TC one would have been a decent enough intro.
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>>78549489
>>78549592

If that box is beefy, you should see the box for Terminal Directive.
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>>78547025
At least Smartware drips. Kati holds the credits hostage, so one tag with 9+ credits? Bye-bye, 3 clicks.
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>>78550070

I guess distributor is technically better then Kati in some ways, although she being able to deliver a whole lot of creds at a time is pretty awesome.
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I've forgotten where to find the ruling and I'm too sleepy to go searching for it but if both sides have an "on score/steal" effect, such as Tao vs Send a Message, which player goes first during each turn?
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>>78550593
If two effects from different players trigger simultaneously, the one belonging to the player whose turn it is resolves first.
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>>78550628
Thanks!
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>>78549489
>Now, the problem is setting up some kind of game in this covid ravaged world.
Don't remind me.
I'm trying to pretend as if everything was alright as long as I'm here.
(Have fun.)
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You can try using web cams if you want to combine Meatspace and Netspace together?
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Fermenter belongs in every single runner deck. That card is ridiculous.
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>>78552397

Maybe for Red decks. Other decks would probably have better use for the 2-6 inf.
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>>78552522
A card that threatens to nullify your ice through mountains of creds or force you to waste turns every now and then is a very, very strong card. I keep playing against Shapers running 3 of them and honestly I can't disagree with them doing it.
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>>78552640
It's a slow uptick unless they're using Knob. It's at least a 4 turn before a tempo loss?
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>>78554170
Sure, but as Corp what do you do when it hits 4 virus counters? Spend an entire turn purging a card that's only going to tick back up? Don't count on Fermenter for your economy, just threaten to run into servers with mountains of cash unless the corp purges.
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>>78554209

Good luck vs those rush decks that seem to be making the rounds then.
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>>78554359
>tfw don't play big W
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>>78554209
Just slot sandbox lmao
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>>78554209
>Stimhack
>NuStimhack (Overclock)
>Inside Job (with expensive ICE outside)
>Spear Phishing (with expensive ICE INside)
>Femme Fatale
>Tranquilizer
I dunno, senpai. It seems "stupid good," but not "warping" since it still has to tick up and there are already shit that will give the runner mountains of credits already. The only terrible part is that it doesn't trash on purge, but I get why they wouldn't want it to do that (because then it becomes like Tapwrm where it'll auto-trash tempo loss)
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>>78554376
>tfw play big W but not rush
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How do you guys store paper collections? I'd like to do binders but I'll end up with various sizes of them which is mildly annoying. One FFG cycle can conveniently fit in an entire binder, NISEI, core sets, big boxes, etc are all inconveniently sized. Finding a nice box big enough to throw them in seems kind of hard, I've never seen one that was big enough that I liked. I do like how compact it is compared to binders though.
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>>78530478
I love that Peace in Our Time art
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I gotta work on my chinaman connections. Any tips for decent looking proxies? Is it a matter of the image you send or managing their software? I'm having a hard time printing it without the edges cut off
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>>78543570
Hell yeah. Lots of fun in those boxes
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>>78548624
I'll bet sleep snek is going to be a staple for a long time. Unfortunately this means big dumb ICE shouldn't be an attractive option
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>>78553357
Hehe
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>>78556826
I'm doing boxes organized by faction
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>>78556826
I've prepared mine for a sort of sealed draft, so they're all sleeved, shuffled, and stored in bags of 40 cards and tucked away until whenever I can get some players. The original core box can fit like two - three cycles worth so I just use that.

>>78557234
Wasn't there a newer proxy maker that supported the newer stuff somewhere in red tits?
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>>78557453
I'll check the bra
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What are the mini factions? Are their cards unplayable outside of their own identities?
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>>78557553
The mini factions are 3 runners with very different playstyles, and need to spend influence to use cards from non-neutral factions. At the same time, other factions need to spend influence to use their cards as well. The cycles after their release usually have like 1-2 cards per cycle.
One is a rogue android that starts the game with three Directive cards that mess with how you play the game.
Another is a blue collar mom that runs for a security company, using their resource so her breakers don't cost MU, or bypass ICE.
And the final one is a digital predator that probably ended the modern world, and plays by installing cards face down and trashing them.
All three are quite fun, with the mom being the most orthodox, but can be difficult to build decks for.
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>Opponent has 2 cards left in his deck, and 2 Boomerangs in the bin
>Installs Boomerang
>Cracks it
>Draws a card
>Installs Boomerang
>Cracks it
>Draws a card
>Installs Boomerang
>Cracks it
>Draws a card
>Installs Boomerang
>Cracks it
>Draws a card
>Installs Boomerang
>Cracks it
>Draws a card

So much for the deck getting shuffled.
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>>78557553
They're factions that functions exactly the same way normal factions function.
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Got my Nisei cards from DTCs today. Kind of sucks the artist credits and card numbers at the bottom of some cards are unreadable due to how the cards were cut.
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>>78558440
I got my cards from DTC today too, ik not seeing any problems with the card alignment.
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>>78556826

If you can find those deck boxes from all the GNKs and other event kits from last time, each faction would need at least 2 of those for all their stuff.
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I still can't decide if Carmen is a better choice than Bukhgalter.
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>>78559990

Kinda like the Cleaver vs Corroder debate.

inb4 Clippy
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>>78560076
I mean, Cleaver has situations where it's better than Clippy. Not many breakers get to say that.
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>>78560076
Haha, I have discovered the solution: just run both since I'm probably Mutual Favoring for it!
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>>78559248
All my cards look like this. Thankfully DTC is replacing my entire order (All the Gateway cards/Ashes Expansion/Startup GNK) for free.
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>>78560626
That's good that they're getting replaced. I guess you've got extra copies of your hedge funds and sure gambles now.
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>>78560679
I’m giving the cards to my buddy who used to play FFG ANR. We were originally going to just use my set but not I don’t have to break apart my decks.
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>>78557285
Corps' gonna get heavy recursion because of it, count on it.
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My turn one Fermenter earned me 3 purges and 8c. That's fuckin' value right there.
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>>78560220

So what do you usually choose?
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>>78561354
That could be interesting. Leaning on recursion also makes advancing ICE less appealing. Sounds like both of my loves will be crippled.
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>>78560220
I love the use of Docklands Pass. Lets you threaten the hand.
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>>78560149

Just curious, which specific scenarios does Cleaver actually do better?
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>>78562767
HQ Interface but cheaper innit.

>>78562678
Dunno. At some point I'll look up the sentry composition of typical decks and base my decision on that.
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>>78562928
It's because Cleaver can break 2 subs for 1c while Clippy is always 1c per sub. If Cleaver matches str and there's multiple subs, it actually wins. It's a hard sell over the king though. Too niche.
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>>78562937
>>78562767

Docklands Pass is definitely a far more usable version of HQI.

After all, how often does a runner want to access HQ with not playing other events?
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>>78563010

Even with the niche conditions, the other advantages of clippy is still likely to make it more useful over cleaver.

>>78562937

If its just breaking single sentries/turn, Bukh is probably better. Things get iffy once you have to deal with multiple sentries all over the place.
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>>78560220
Running multiple breakers for a single type should be more of a thing.
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>>78565464

Maybe for AI-based breakers, but its kind of a stretch to expect multiple dedicated breaker types to be played.
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>>78565674
Why? Because hyper efficiency? Expecting breakers to be good then dumping the rest in the fire because it breaks ice for 1 credit more then the top dog breaker is a mistake made since the early days that was never rectified. It's horrendous that you never see like 90% of all printed breakers because of it.
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>>78565804
No, because of deck slots. You're putting in 1-3 more of a single-type of breaker... why? You can't use the other breaker's "Interface" (ugh) break ability when the other one that boosts more efficient is matching the STR of the ICE.

It's pointless.

>It's horrendous that you never see like 90% of all printed breakers because of it.
Blame competitive/math being "efficient" than allowing jank. I really wanted Flashbang to be good, but it simply isn't because it's too expensive to do the gimmick it wants to do.
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>>78565925
>You're putting in 1-3 more of a single-type of breaker... why?
Because you'd have more flexible options for breaking certain ice over the other breaker. If breaker A broke 50% of ice we'll while breaker B broke the other 50% then using both together is a great option. But since breaker C breaks 90% of ice well, everyone just uses C. The mindset that it's pointless is a product of the current state of the game, not the idea itself, which if implemented better would've resulted in much more colorful breaker choices.
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>>78560626
damn that is awful. good thing they're replacing all that for free.
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>>78566072
>Because you'd have more flexible options for breaking certain ice over the other breaker.
...So you'd rather waste a click and 1-9 credits to break ONE other ICE that another breaker is able to break for 2-4 credits more, *really?*

>But since breaker C breaks 90% of ice well, everyone just uses C.
Because, see:

>>78565925
>because of deck slots. You're putting in 1-3 more of a single-type of breaker... why?
You can blame the current state of the game and the design, and I don't disagree. But you can't fault players for slotting only one of each type and using the "efficient" ones because the others just don't stack up. Maybe if the designers/Nisei actually make ICE that want certain types of breakers that AREN'T math (see: the Myths, traps [Jinteki bomb ICE], "if an AI breaker is installed, do this on encounter" NBN ICE) focused, other types of breakers would maybe be used. But it's highly unlikely unless NISEI actually attempts to do more "jank"/exploration of the game's design that isn't just "slap more effective breaker costs for less"/power-creep because a lot of their base is tournament grinders/Spikes/Stimhack forumites than kitchen-table players.
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>>78566381
To add to this, let me put it this way: AI's, while useful, aren't being used in massive numbers now a days. There's no reason to use them. If an ICE like Mother Goddess (which is a Mythic one) was only able to be broken by an AI, you could see those being slotted.

But that runs into a design constraint on having to have certain breakers be slotted and taking other cards out of the deck (or bloating both Corp and Runner to have an "arms race" on having answers for one/other type of ICE/breaker).

The tag-on-encounter they introduced is a good first step toward trying to do something like this (even if I don't agree with the tag-on-encounter mechanic). Nisei should use the time-lag between this starter set being released and the next cycle to actually look into weird-ideas for the game design to where maybe encouraging packing more than one type of ICE breaker would be encouraged beyond the starter shaper "having more programs installed +STR for each one for one credit" card that is there currently.

But that still doesn't answer the question: Why *would you slot in more than one type of breaker* when they all only do certain breaks better/worse than the top tiers. Only stuff like Femme Fatale (with it's bypass), Burkhalter/other two that allow a bypass and Flashbang (which allows a de-rez) open up possibilities to mess with ICE beyond "oh I lose a credit but I have Liberated Accounts/Magnum Opus/Kati Jones/etc. that will give me the credit back +2-3 more from a click so ho-hum" design.
>>
>>78563672
I run a cheesy Gabe deck but yeah, generally it's once a turn if at all
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>>78566777

It's also a more permanent alternative of sorts to Legwork, even when less less per 'hit'.
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>>78566460
Yeah, even when looking at some other nutty breakers (like snowball) they feel like they want to be the breaker for a specific deck not one of several breakers.

I've noticed other card games (mostly electronic) outright saying "we're willing to purposely make certain things strong to shake up the meta" and I think that might be a good route to explore, though physical cards makes it a delicate balance
>>
>>78566460
I think ambushes that hit the rig are a good development space. Stressing the Runner's deck after they have their rig established seems like a good place to capitalize on the game's natural mindgames
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>>78566896
Some folks might not like that/NPE. But rig-shooting hasn't been in-vogue in a while. Yeah, there were Salem's and Hatchet Job, but they were super-focused. I don't think we've had too many threatening Sentries in a while. Surveyor? But that doesn't rig-shoot.

But that goes back to the "arms race" and I'm not sure if I'm on-board with that. I do think them finishing up the Cassia breakers/console(s? We're missing King/Queen [Reina is Queen I guess] and Rook, IIRC) giving the unregistered guns (for Corp, IIRC) another try and other ideas that were in Lunar but abandoned and other "binder fodder" tools to be used would be cool.

I do like that the Shaper breaker that was introduced does make "big rig Shaper" beneficial in a sense, but it does make it super efficient if it gets set-up fast. So the weird shit does need a trade-off that isn't "it's just slower/more expensive" while also not being "binder fodder" for tournament players.

I dunno how they necessarily solve that though. Something I've been thinking on for a long time.
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>>78566381
>So you'd rather waste a click and 1-9 credits to break ONE other ICE
>If breaker A broke 50% of ice we'll while breaker B broke the other 50%
Gee willikers anon, I didn't know people only used TWO types of ice!
And yes, if it made runs 4 credits cheaper and I plan on running that server multiple times, I would. And that's before we consider that they probably put that ice there because they saw it would be inefficient to break with the other breaker we already installed.

>But you can't fault players for slotting only one of each type and using the "efficient" ones because the others just don't stack up
Which is exactly why I say this mindset is due to the current state of the game, and that multiple breakers for a single type should be more a thing. You're not saying anything that contradicts me here. I'm not saying "decks should have multiple breakers that break a single ice type because fun!", I'm saying "it would've been nice if the game progressed in a way that installing multiple breakers to break a single ice type was a viable strategy".
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>>78567057
Every time I see a Weyland card that gives me credits for trashing my own stuff, my heart flutters. I want it to be good but have a hard time building the deck
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>>78567081
>And yes, if it made runs 4 credits cheaper and I plan on running that server multiple times, I would.
Then you are strict minority. Because nobody is going to slot 2 different types of sentry/barrier/code-gates to break for 1 credit less when economy cards will give them that credit back.

>I'm saying "it would've been nice if the game progressed in a way that installing multiple breakers to break a single ice type was a viable strategy".
And I'm saying *why* would you do that? There's nothing in the game that makes you WANT to run multiple of a same-type breaker beyond rig-shooting, see: >>78567057

There is absolutely no reason (which you agree with) to do it. Which goes into how would *you* force players to waste deck-slots in design, anon?
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>>78566896

Its great and all, but for the most part only the Blues get rekt by consistent rig shooting.
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>>78567081
I think the only way to do that is for the Corporation to have tools to punish passive Runners. Theoretically, a Runner sitting behind one of each breaker and a Magnum Opus is a happy camper.
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>>78567162
Even if it gives a scoring window, it should be worth. Perhaps tools to punish recursion if not prevent it.
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>>78567146
I think it's more of an interesting development space that could give more merit to whacky breakers.
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>>78567081
A point I forgot to add, if they purposely made breakers with the intent that players would supplement it with a sub breaker that could break what the main breaker couldn't efficiently, then we probably would've avoided this cycle of "make efficient breaker > make good ice that taxes efficient breaker > other breakers get dumped since only efficient breaker can break it well", since it would let them explore other breaker designs that don't need efficient breaking.

>>78567146
>break for 1 credit less when economy cards will give them that credit back
Econ being power creeped can probably be attributed to the loop I mentioned above, now that I think of it.

>There's nothing in the game
Why do you keep comparing a situation that I want to be true (a game where multiple breakers per type is viable) with reality (a game where it isn't)? You're right that this current game in our current world line isn't made for multiple breakers, which however isn't the point. In a world line where multiple breakers are the norm, they'd probably call for a ban if something like Paperclip was introduced.
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>>78567191

No doubt about it, but its still pretty hard to pull that off reliably vs non-Blues regrettably.

That said, AggSec would have been nice to have in Startup, since only the Greens have reliable ways to recover from losing breakers.
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>>78567146
Let me summarize your argument in another way
>it would be nice if it were cooler so we could eat some hot noodles
>why, it's summer, no one wants noodles when they could eat ice cream
>sure, but if it were a bit cooler noodles would be great
>but no one wants hot noodles in summer! I want noodles too but ice cream is better!
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>>78557173

Yeah, its pretty hilarious actually.
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>>78557285

I guess there are going to be lots of Magnets being imported if that actually presents a big unforeseen issue down the road.
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Maybe if breakers were all "only 1 can be included in your deck" maybe do the same for ice.
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>>78569791
1-of for ice is much more doable than it is for breakers.
I wonder if we'll get to see a format akin to Pokémon, where the more frequently used cards get restricted to a higher tier.
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>>78567146
Also, after some thought:
>Which goes into how would *you* force players to waste deck-slots in design, anon?
FFG attempted this (not to put words into their mouth with the design, but feeling this) with Kabonesa Wu: Netspace Thrillseeker. Thing is, people found her "exile" ability to be stupid slow and cumbersome to where having thousands of programs in their deck (and then trying to figure out how to use them efficiently with economy) wasn't preferred. You know how that turned out, right?

Well, in case you gained brain damage from a Stimhack: Nobody uses Wu's ability for thousands of programs. They use it for Self-Modifying Code and others that will get around the exile ability to then "tutor"/find the program they actually want to install. AKA: One of the three types of breakers (or economy) they want instantly.

So... anon, this goes back to:

>how would *you* force players to waste deck-slots in design, anon?
Nobody is going to do it willingly, and you admitted as such. So I'm not sure why you're so offended when I point out (and you agree) that the design of the game just didn't go that direction.
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>>78569791

Might be cool. Already a lot of breakers are 1-offs slots anyway, and that does encourage more diversity.

Idk about ice though. They probably need to have a chance after all.

>>78569857

Most Wanted List redux? The cards that ended up there costed extra inf at one point, not that it stopped a certain faction from going all-in on their own internal MWL cards as a result.
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Multiple breakers for the same time of ice is a stupid idea because swapping them mid-game is unrealistic. If you're swapping into something more efficient, why were you running the other one. I'm only trying it in >>78560220
because of all my tutors and I assume each corp has its own sentry profile/density that either Carmen or Bukh will be better suited towards. Even then I wouldn't be mad to just draw either because they really are about as good as each other.

Cleaver v Clippy is one sided in favour of Clippy UNLESS, MAYBE, you're importing them and the inf matters. If you're in Shaper and expect to have Takobi down which negates the expensive pump cost of Cleaver, I could definitely see Cleaver being worth it over Cleaver there. But that's not you slotting Cleaver and Clippy then SMC'ing for one or the other, it's you slotting Cleaver because it works better for you.
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>>78569961
Again, you're still saying people are buying ice cream because summer is hot, and giving poignant examples on why ice cream became a staple during summer, when what I'm doing is thinking it would be great to if we had noodles during a cooler season. There is no contradiction, they are different seasons, one exists, and one doesn't, and yet you're trying to force noodles into non-existance despite there being no reason to.

There is no point on giving you a specific example on how I could make people slot them because the environment for it doesn't exist. There is no point in making a detailed and well explained case for a design choice that could've created an environment that fosters more varied and interesting card choice if you're going to keep comparing it within the boundaries of what you only know.

Does that then mean that the strategy should be written off completely? No, because we are not in the position to say whether schrodinger's cat is dead or alive. Nobody knows what could've happened to our current meta if 5+ years ago Corroder had 0 install 0 strength 2 break 1 pump instead. Saying that you do by using examples from a game that progressed using our Corroder as a baseline is just the height of arrogance.
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>>78570065
>MWL Redux
Nah, much harder and stricter. The way they do it is that mons that see frequent use get moved up a tier, and none of the lower tiers can use them when building a team for play in that tier. So as an example, the Overused tier would probably be littered with staples like Sure Gamble/Hedge Fund that none of the lower tiers could use.
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>>78570203
Rather than using Paperclip vs Cleaver as a case for using multiple breakers it would be better if you assumed that the only Fracters you could put in your deck were Gauss and Breach. Would you want just Gauss on the table if you met a 6 strength barrier during a run? Would you want to keep using Breach on multiple Wall of Statics?

Again, with the current state of the game, the answer to both is just "get more money", because that's how the game turned out. We don't know what the answer could've been if they made it so getting more money wasn't an option.
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>>78570436
"get more money" is why I'm revisiting that Kabonesa Wu deck from a bit back that used her ability to tutor and trash bin breakers. DZMZ allows you to reinstall them for potentially free each turn, so Pawnshop eating them makes money while Talut pumps them. Surrounding this is millions upon millions of creds. It's just money and high strength breakers.
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>>78570511

Well, give that a go and regale us with your experiences. Sounds like an interesting concept.
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>>78570282

Sounds awfully complicated and requires a crapload of data to justify pulling off, nevermind potential cascading balance issues.
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>>78571947
Indeed, I guess you could potentially implement a card usage statistic on Jnet and when a card sees usage in more than 70% of games of a tier, it gets moved up a tier or something. You could also look up store champs card usage only for a much rougher approximation of tiers.

Balance is another thing; while most breakers don't see use because they're less efficient/worse than whatever the current tier 1 breaker is, ICE usually don't see use because they don't tax the tier 1 breaker enough, not because they're not taxing at all. So a lot of the ICE that don't see much use could get a surge of popularity when against the less used breakers. Even more so when econ options get severely limited as I think it could be. There is such a thing as "strong in Underused tier gets moved to Overused and becomes less popular because OU is overpowered" in Pokémon though, so maybe the balance issue would solve itself.
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I can definitely see the appeal of limited formats (ie Startup) compared to the sprawling standard pool.
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So what's the verdict of the best killer?
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>>78573049
Ika.
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>>78573049
Humans
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The more I think about the "problem" of Runner econ the more I think the solution is Ambushes. If they blow all their money on a dead run that also blasts their economy you can get quite the scoring window.

What about an expensive to trash ambush that takes out a chunk of the heap if not the whole thing?
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>>78573049
I still have a spot for Femme Fatale
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>>78577373
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>>78577338
I think the point of contention there is "should the the result of a run be affected by what is essentially a crapshoot?" The Corp would feel good because you included a card that happens to hit the runner, but the Runner obviously wouldn't be happy they lost their resources over randomness. That said, other games do have these kinds of mechanics that can swing a game in the favor of the player being attacked, so it's not like it's a wild idea. A balance between Runner-negative cards and Corp-positive effects is likely important.

Regardless of whether more Ambushes is a good idea or not, at the very least a solution that avoids a direct econ battle is likely for the best.
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>>78570998
Well my first game was going great apart from how insanely fast my opponent was going. Is everyone running La Costa Grid plus Manegarm Skunkworks? Because it feels like it.
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Earth Station is fucking stupid.
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>>78577338

A successful cerebral overwriter can do just as well.
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>Two DZMZ installed
>Run into the Macrophage on HQ
>Install Black Orchestra for 1 cred
>Let the fucker just fire because I have 2 link so it won't ETR because the corp doesn't have the money
>Next turn Pawnshop Black Orchestra

Hahaha. Yesssss.
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>>78581193

So...you won that match?
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>>78582151
Yes but it cost a lot of creds. Like 2 million at least.
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>>78582592

A win is a win, despite hideous cost.
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>>78583109
Can't argue with a W
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>>78578728
>a solution that avoids a direct econ battle is likely for the best.

This. Design for this game is definitely best when cards are made to be obtuse
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I wonder how the econ for ONR was like and if they had the Runner is swamped with credits and get in anywhere "problem".
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>>78577373

Always have been a classy 1-off.
>>
Played my first games with the prebuilt System Gateway decks. I was corp and was going to lose to Conduit but I drew into Public Trail and Retribution to trash it before it got too ugly. Fun game though, I'll definitely look at getting the other Nisei cards.
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>>78584899

Glad you had fun! If the Startup format becomes more popular in Meatspace, its much easier for new players to get into the game.
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>>78585802
Yeah I'm not a fan of online tabletop gaming, half the experience is the visceral emotions of frustration and despair your opponent displays during a game, it just isn't the same without it. Plus I'm guessing they don't want you saying the nigger word on their website.
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>>78584207
I'd assume ambushes
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>>78584207

I would presume the general overview of game stages will still be broadly the same between ONR and ANR, where the runner is generally favored in the late game regardless.

That said, being a TCG, there is no guarantee any particular ONR runner deck would actually have enough econ to reach that stage.
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>>78584209
>>78577373

If small sentries are the norm, Femme is a decent killer even without the targeted bypass effect. The big price tag is unfortunate though.
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>>78586895
The price tag should be the best reason. Unfortunately there are a shitton of reasons for the Corp to never run expensive ICE
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>>78586960

She is still alright vs even some mid-range ice that would have been annoying to deal with otherwise. Being able to deny that funhouse tag for instance.
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>>78587033
True. It's a big investment that will be telegraphed, but it's not like the Corp can do much about it
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>>78587094

Could be a similar situation to Tranquillisers, although Femme can at least go through the target ice immediately instead of waiting.
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>>78584899

Its probably an edge case, but being able to tag+retribution trash that last cleaver is also game winning.

A bit unfortunate there is only a single copy of said Retribution in that deck though.
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>>78581193
>>78582592

Nice. Now see if you can replicate that success!
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>the grimdark near-future only slightly less grimdark then today
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>>78587674
Yeah, whenever I think about Femme it's through an alpha strike. Nothing's worse than setting her up just to see them trash the ICE
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>>78589665

If she is on ice like a stacked surveyor, then the corp is in a bit of a bind on whether to trash that. The runner should benefit either way in theory.
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With City Works, Bellona and Obokata seeing more play than ever, is it time to sound the whistle?
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>>78589993
I don't think Whistleblower works on CWP because the damage isn't a cost to steal it, rather it's done when you access it.
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>>78590013
It does counter it. If you trash Whistleblower the trigger is on access, same time as CWP's, so the runners triggers first.
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>>78590038
What if it's an AOYCR run?
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>>78590047
Then it's kinda hard to access an advanced CWP.
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>>78590038
Oh that's a bit horrible. Thankfully SSO runs mountains of supercharged ICE and has access to silly lines of play like 1) install and rez Reconstruction Contract, 2) Dedication Ceremony it, 3) install Above the Law, crack RC, score AtL, smush Whistleblower.

God SSO is so fucking obnoxious.
>>
>Jinteki ID
>15/45
The top card of R+D is considered to have 2 advancement tokens on it.
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amogus
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>>78590171
I like this card. If hard hitting murder ambushes aren't the way then stuff like this that requires set up and multiple cards is pretty nice.
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>>78590427
>Swap a 3/2 into the server
>Runner jacks out as soon as they can assuming it's a trap
>Score it next turn
Out-fucking-skilled.
>>
>Only 18 of 49 cards left in my deck
>Still haven't seen a City Works Project
>Saw all 3 Archived Memories and 3 Reconstruction Projects before a single Dedication Ceremony
>Took so long to find a single Oaktown Renovation that I only got tokens on 2 ice before it was stolen, the runner was fully set up at this point
>Fire off Mass Comms 4 times just for 4 creds when it should easily be netting me 10 a time
>Runner kept hitting my hand, little did he know it was 5 ice every time
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>>78590526
sometimes when you flop your balls out onto the table they get slapped
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>>78590526
>>78590427

I can see Snare! being a possible candidate, but what else should be runner be fearful off?
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>>78590932
Calvin Baley? Ganked into Anansi? Forced Connection?
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>>78590526

So what was the nasty surprise if you were to do the reverse?
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>>78590909

So you managed to score out at least?
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>>78591931
No, it was 4-0 and as soon as he played the Diversion of Funds I just conceded and left. 18 cards left in my deck and I hadn't even started to set up yet.
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>>78593581

Wonder what would it be like if that was the update ID rather then the usual BaBW?

>>78593728

Better luck next time I guess?
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>>78594427
They'd probably have a harder time picking the support cards for it since the ability isn't econ related.
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>>78594671

There are plenty of advanceable ice available for BoN even in Startup. If anything it's probably easier to leverage its ability there, but it's academic anyway.
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Why does it feel impossible to win as runner?
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>>78595954
Just look at this shit man, I switch to corp and instantly just do stuff like this.

>CWP + Dedication, runner doesn't bother running, meaning I can just make it unstealable then use it to pump up all my ICE while Sprint stops me flooding

Scored a cheeky Firmware Updates in the middle of all this, then in one turn I scored CWP, played another, and double Dedication'd it. Runner drew up to 8, ran the server, then realised it was Akhets all the way so it'd take 10 cards in hand to survive and conceded. I don't even know what runners can do about bullshit like this, and SSO doesn't even seem to be a top ID.



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