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Why is it a bad idea to base courtroom justice on Zone of Truth, which is what Eberron does?
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>>77703307
Why is it a bad idea to have travel quests in a world with teleporters?
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>>77703307
It’s not. It only makes sense for everybody to do it like this. Maybe only small towns without Paladins that can’t have acces to Zone of Truth can have different justice systems. But if your city is actually civilised, the justice system will use Zone of Truth. Maybe even a Truth Serum in the most difficult cases.
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>>77703307
It’s possible to resist the effects.
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>>77703307
>Why is it a bad idea to base courtroom justice on Zone of Truth
Because it means you're playing D&D, which is a bad idea to begin with.
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>>77703415
>You know whether each creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw.
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>>77703415
But the caster knows if the suspect/witness is trying to resist the effect which makes him guilty by default. Still the best system for justice
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>trusting sorcerers to always cast zone of truth instead of control action

Enjoy your shithole magestate built on corrupt kangaroo courts
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>>77703307
Because the truth can be manipulated very easily, you are only saying what you perceive is the truth, not the factual evidence-proof truth. Magic or not, its not without finer caveats some talented criminals or other wizards have figured out and abuse.
Not to mention the question asked will fuck with the entire prospect at the core.
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>>77703307
It's not.
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>>77703487
>Zone of Truth
>It’s literally a unique magic circle
>Easy to identify by multiple sources

Do you even play games? Also mages don’t cast Zone or Truth. Paladins and Clerics do
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>>77703530
Wrong.

>Classes: Bard, Cleric, Paladin
>Subclasses: Crown Paladin, Devotion Paladin, Divine Soul Sorcerer, Monster Slayer Ranger, Monster Slayer Ranger (Revised), Order Cleric
>Races: Human (Mark of Sentinel)
>Backgrounds: Orzhov Representative
>>
>Hire some thugs to do shady shit.
>Kill them.
>Use magic to erase all of your memories concerning said thugs and the knowledge that you erased your memories.
>You have defeated zone of truth as a low level caster.

Also you assume that rich and powerful people would let such a custom become widespread.
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>>77703500

Ideally, there should be a specific protocol for employing Detect Thoughts and Zone of Truth in interrogation rooms and courtrooms. First, someone writes out a list of twenty yes-or-no questions on a sheet of paper, all tailored to incisively question a subject at hand. For example, "Did you kill Mr. Marcellusine Roberts?", "Were you within a hundred feet of Mr. Marcellusine Roberts at the time of his death?", "Were you aware of any conspiracy to instigate the death of Mr. Marcellusine Roberts?", "Do you believe that if you were outside of [nation] at the time of Mr. Marcellusine Roberts' death, he would have still died on the same day?", and so on. Below each question are three checkboxes, labeled "Yes," "No," and "No meaningful response."

The subject is scanned and stripped of all magic items and active spells, then brought into the interrogation room or podium. A trusted spellcaster repeatedly casts Zone of Truth on the subject until it takes hold; if the subject resists every time, the process may have to be postponed to the following day. Then, the same magician or a different one casts Detect Thoughts. The magician with an active Detect Thoughts is known as the "empath."

A vetted "questioner" steps in, armed with the sheet of questions. The questioner instructs, "Please answer only in strict yes or no responses. Failure to comply is obstructing a legal proceeding at best, and a sign of guilt at worse." Then, the questioner goes down the list. At no point is the questioner ever to fixate on any one query; they should be time-efficient, keeping to a strict time limit of 30 seconds per question and answer exchange. The questioner checks off each box, recording the results.

(Continued.)
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>>77703555
So don’t use mages? Only use Paladins that already uphold Oaths of Justice. Again it’s a circle that’s easy to identify. You can’t find a fault in the Zone of Truth system
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>>77703596

Concurrently, the empath types out of the subject's surface thoughts. Where Zone of Truth forces the target to carefully consider a way to circumvent the inquiries, Detect Thoughts picks up suspicious trains of logic.

Afterwards, the questioner's sheet and the empath's are brought together and carefully studied, whether by law enforcement officials, or by those in the courtroom. The output is combined with other evidence to hopefully paint a picture of the truth. Any serious criminal is quite aware that a crime that can be rumbled by a single Detect Thoughts or Zone of Truth spell is a flimsy crime; thus, criminals often use circuitous methods to conceal the truth. These spells are undoubtedly useful in investigation and in practice of law, but they can merely supplement a more thorough analysis of a crime.

Why would this setup not be useful in an interrogation room or a courtroom? For this, I am picturing a more "modern society by way of magic" setting, such as Eberron, or even certain interpretations of Planescape or Spelljammer.
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>why is it bad, it's used in an official setting
There's your answer.

At least with laws you assume an expert can understand it and has a sense of morality behind deducing the truth. Magic that forces people to tell the truth under the threat of punishment robs civilians of any freedoms and instigates a martial law where apparently, a paladin's fucking magic bullshit to get answers is more important. At its most basic level, it's enchantment, and the only people whose word you can trust that it is indeed a Zone of Truth is the caster themselves.
>>77703530
>It’s literally a unique magic circle
>Easy to identify by multiple sources
You're making a lot of assumptions about the depiction and world, anon. Maybe if you're autistic and have your entire world familiar with the PHB, that makes sense to you. But an effect that doesn't describe a visual effect and is only distinguishable as a spell being cast compelling someone to speak truthfully, sounds an awful lot like fucking magical coercion to literally any layman unfamiliar with magic.
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>>77703590
What low level spell erases memories completely? What are you even on?
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>>77703590
>Modify memory
>Need a 9th level caster
>Undone by remove curse which only needs a 5th level caster
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>>77703627
It’s almost like laymans don’t get a fucking choice when they are put on trail and that’s why we don’t trust the common man with building a justice system. Find more strawmans
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>>77703590

For one, under 5e logic, Modify Memory is a 5th-level spell.

Also under 5e logic:
>A remove curse or greater restoration spell cast on the target restores the creature’s true memory.

Remove Curse is a 3rd-level cleric, paladin, warlock, wizard, Clockwork Soul sorcerer, or Divine Soul sorcerer spell. It would be standard procedure to cast such a spell on any interrogation subject beforehand.
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>>77703307
Did it ever occur to you that D&D has spells like Zone of Truth for the express purpose of avoiding courtroom plots so that you can get back to stabbing things with your +3 sword? The game is deliberately designed to bypass these kinds of things. Why would you ever even think, for the merest fraction of a planck time, that D&D is suited to this sort of stuff much less that a setting should be designed around incorporating it. It's like a video game RPG building plots around the function and usage of invisible walls.
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>>77703673
Almost like people rebelling against oppressive rulers is a key point in history and every element that adds to oppression is fuel on that fire.
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>>77703688
>Why would you ever even think, for the merest fraction of a planck time
why do you type like a faggot
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>Dwarven king asks the party for help
>Invites us into parliamentary meeting to explain it
>Turns out to just be a shouting match of accusations between two or three factions
>I cast Zone of Truth
>GM rolls some dice
>The room quiets significantly
heh
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>>77703307
Because requiring people to incriminate themselves is a flawed system of justice.
You can still evade the Zone of Truth through nonanswers or technically correct answers, so trusting in it too much does not solve anything.
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>>77703627
>where apparently, a paladin's fucking magic bullshit to get answers is more important

This but unironically.

Why am I trusting some asshole off the street and not a cleric of the god of justice?
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>>77703677
>it would be standard procedure
no, it wouldn't.
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>>77703700
>A fair justice system
>People rebel because bad guys are put to jail and innocents are released

Either you are retarded or you play in a setting full of retarded npc’s
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>>77703738
Why not?
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>>77703757
because I said so
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>Dragons using their intricate control and vast understanding of magics start rigging things in their favour to slowly take over entire kingdoms.
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>commit heinous crime
>immediately kill yourself with a disintegration ray to the head
nice zone of truth faggots lol
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>>77703794
1. How?

2. Can’t they already do that you faggot? Isn’t that the plot of like half of campaigns out there?
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>>77703433
Have you tried not being a cancerous mass? You know the thread is about stuff you don't like. Just stay out of threads that trigger you, okay?
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>>77703625
The thing to keep in mind is that a lot of crimes are flimsy crimes, and aren't meticulously planned out far in advance to account for investigation methods.
A major benefit to Zone of Truth is that it can quite swiftly determine innocence or guilt in many cases, and can help prevent someone innocent from being found guilty.
Zone of Truth actively allows for a court system where you can actually prove innocence, which is the inverse of the real world, and why it seems incorrect from our point of view.
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>>77703866
Except now your fucking justice system is based on stupid ass clerics of the god of justice, which is total BS that always leads to fascism and corruption EVERY TIME.
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>>77703808
*true resurrects you*
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>>77703590
>Pay someone to hire some thugs to kill someone
>Get put on trial with Zone of Truth
>Did you kill them?
>No
>Were you involved in their death?
>Not particularly
>Have you done any business with (the killer)
>No
The cool thing about the truth is that it exists independently to each person and there's no fucking thing as absolute objective truth. Even in the real world, it's EXTREMELY easy to convince yourself of something false, thus making restating said thing true to you.

Any criminal worth their salt would be able to do this to provide evidence of their innocence the second Zone of Truth came out.
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>>77703732
>suspect put under Zone of Truth and is innocent
>declares innocence and is free to go
>suspect put under Zone of Truth and is guilty
>evades questions and gives non-answers
>put into jail until his next hearing
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>>77703922
>insufficient answers is grounds for imprisonment
Viva la revolucion, fuck your system. I'm a reputable and beloved member of the community, they won't stand for this horseshit treatment of innocents.
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>>77703899
>We’re you involved in their death?
>You try to say “Not particulary”
>You can’t
>It’s objectively a lie since you hired the thugs that killed hence you we’re involved
>You scream REEEE at your DM and try to cry how it’s not your truth

Try not to be a faggot
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>>77703974
>uhm you can't say that, anon
>Yes, I can, DM, it's subjectively true
>but uhm, you actually did-
>I'm sorry, are you metagaming just to get my PC caught because YOU know I did it?
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What is this magical world where Zone of Truth can't be beaten by succeeding on a trivially easy saving throw?
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>>77703899
Yes or no questions only, see >>77703596 and >>77703625
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>>77704018
This retard just said the DM metagames. My god your whole point is so autistic that everybody who reads it will lose an IQ point. A debate with you is useless.
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>>77704018
Yes or no questions only, see >>77703596 and >>77703625
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>>77703742
Is this autism or sociopathy
>The justice system is totally fair!
>The beloved village Headsman Urkelius was definitely guilty!
>No one REALLY believes that the king's court wizard cast control action to make him say he killed the prince's brother
>It's a total coincidence that the king's succession crisis was shored up by his youngest son's death
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>>77704030
The same one where that isn't fucking true, but the caster knows, as part of the spell, that you succeeded in saving.
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>>77704052
>he's never had a DM that makes an illusionist PC useless because his NPCs can immediately see through them
Metagaming DMs is 100% a thing, what are you, stupid?
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>>77703954
Not prison, jail. You're being held for your next trial. If you want to avoid that, just declare your innocence, because it's that easy.

Do you think it would be unjust if the guards tossed suspects in a magical dungeon that anyone wrongfully accused was free to leave? Would someone wrongfully accused willingly stay in there just to prove a point? Or would they just leave after it being a short stay in jail, which is already how being arrested works in real life?
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>>77703732
You can, but a judge can also hold you in contempt of court for not answering. not every criminal justice system allows the accused to keep their mouth shut. While you're in a zone of truth, the judge could tell you to answer the question or be held in contempt and imprisoned for a day...for each refusal to comply.
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>>77704075
>No one REALLY believes that the king's court wizard cast control action to make him say he killed the prince's brother

Show the actual spells being used.
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>>77704075
Tell me faggot, couldn’t the same thing happend in a system without Zone of Truth? Are you trying to be dense you fucking idiot?
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>>77704097
>guilty until proven innocent
>this is a great system, everyone will be cool with that
>who cares that the majority of people are unfamiliar with law custom and what would constitute reasonable innocence
>they just need to continue functioning within this system where they can be held indefinitely for doing nothing
>yes, my worldbuilding is flawless.
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>>77703974
I pay Amazon money for Prime Video, and Amazon mistreats their workers. Does that make me involved in the mistreatment of workers?
I pay my secretary to deal with my affairs, and he hired an exterminator to deal with my roach problem. Does that mean I'm the one who solved the roach problem? No, of course not.
Likewise, I pay Vinnie to solve my problems. A guy I had a problem with was killed by someone I don't know.
Now, if you forced me to answer yes or no am I involved in his death, I can say no without lying because, as far as I know, I was not.
My problem has been solved and I have acquired evidence proving my innocence. Great system of justice.
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>>77703307
>Why is it a bad idea to build your justice system around an oligarchy of powerful religious zealots and give them sole dominion over the entire concept of "truth"

Wow, no idea.
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>>77703307
>Why is it a bad idea to base courtroom justice on Zone of Truth
Who's suggesting it is?
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>>77704139
>Show the actual spells being used.
What are you talking about, the court wizard did nothing! He carries a book and everything, and during the trial he didn't do anything. A sorcerer could easily deceive and use subtle metamagic? What the fuck is a sorcerer??
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>>77704081
That's just a shit DM.
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>>77704075
That's the reason why you put clerics and paladins in charge of the truth zone, so that when they take a bribe to put an innocent man to death they lose all their divine magic from the god of law they serve, or the violation of their oath. On top of having someone with Detect Thoughts to double check that they intend to cast it and the witness, along with having the judge and any number observers there who are free to make ski checks to identify the spell being cast, because you can absolutely identify a spell based on the verbal and somatic components
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>>77704165
Holy strawmen. Stop already you faggot
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>>77704169
Then get one of the non-divine casters to do it.
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>>77704192
It's a shit GM because they're metagaming, dude. The same applies anywhere.
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>>77703307
It makes twisting of the truth disproportionately powerful. A skillful advocate won't actually lie under oath.
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>>77704173
>Detect Magic
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>>77703487
I'd suggest the verbal and somatic components would be noticeably different so the judge presumably would pick up on it after seeing enough of them cast.
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>>77704139
Suggestion, Geas, Charm Person, control person, demand. All force or can be used to convince a person to say something against their will.
>>77704141
The same thing can you dumb faggot, that's the point. Saying "There's a Zone of Truth" is just an excuse the nobility can use to justify why it's "totally legit". Zone of Truth is just another version of literally any reason anyone gives why coerced testimony is Totally Honest (TM). So it exists in-universe for literally no fucking reason because it can be easily abused for injustice, AND it blocks any adventure involving courtroom intrigue or whodunits because the party can just cast ZoT.
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>>77704250
>the target is under the effects of an enchantment spell
>Zone of Truth is an enchantment spell
You will only ever get false positives.
>>77704265
>judges and others involved are all fluent enough to recognize what somatic gestures mean
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>>77704150
They don't need to be familiar with law custom. They just need to say that they're innocent if they're innocent.
And yes, people will be cool with it, because they live in a world that has always had magic that is capable of proving innocence.
>>they just need to continue functioning within this system where they can be held indefinitely for doing nothing
Again, is it unjust for someone put into a jail that only those wrongfully imprisoned can leave to choose not to walk out if they're innocent? By that metric, you're already being held indefinitely by 'doing nothing's if you refuse to leave your house, and you're being executed for 'doing nothing's if you don't eat or drink.
This is a fantasy world that would not develop the same philosophical and legal outlook on guilt and self-incrimination purely due to the existence of this sort of magic.
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>>77704207
>Hire NE or CN cleric.
>Tell him to just lie that he's a cleric of Pelor to the peasants
>Pay him to do what you want
Wow, so hard to overcome.
>having someone with Detect Thoughts
>along with having the judge and any number observers there who are free to make ski checks
Your entire assumption is predicated on some kind of infinite turtles hypothetical where all the wizards in the realm get together in a big line to make sure the person in front of them is being honest. If there's like 3 magic users there and all work for the local government, it's not at all hard to bribe them.
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>>77704320
>judges are untrained buffoons who will be put in charge of a magic-based legal system without having any magical knowledge or education
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>>77704222
>then [get powerful people to do something they don't want to do to the benefit of their rivals]

The Clerics will simply state that Arcane casters are blasphemers who are abusing their power for their own benefit. The average man has every reason to believe this because evil wizards periodically summon demons and blow up villages.

It's easy to say "well let's just build a perfect justice system!" we can do that TODAY with microexpression detecting software, brain scans, and newer polygraphs. The reason we don't is because forcing someone to testify against themselves opens so many doors to abuse that it boggles the mind. The legal system must be biased for the accused in order to account for the sheer bias the legal system has in its favor.
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>>77704364
You don't need to be a magic user to identify a spell. Especially not one that you'd see being cast on a regular basis
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>>77703307
Knowing Keith Baker I'm surprised Eberron's justice system isn't based on little girls.
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>>77704320
>You will only ever get false positives.

Arcana checks, my main man.
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Why bother with Zone of Truth when you can have a wizard cast Suggestion on a suspect to have them fully cooperate with an investigation speaking nothing but the plain, whole truth for an entire 8 hours?
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>>77704391
>we can do that TODAY with microexpression detecting software, brain scans, and newer polygraphs.
[citation needed]
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>>77704391
>the clerics will simply lie about other magic users
The irony here will be lost on all ZoT posters.
>>77704491
Explain what an Arcana check is, in universe, nimrod.
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>>77703866
realistically there's likely be two layers to the zone of truths usage in the court system.
An initial police usage to filter out cases that don't really have any business going to court.
Tyreese shanks the storeowner for the three fiddy in the register? This doesn't really merit a long drawn out court case and the zone of truth can filter that out very quickly.
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>>77704520
>Explain what an Arcana check is, in universe, nimrod.
Studying the magical auras.
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>>77704453
Okay
>CN cleric casts ZoT
>"Did you kill the king's youngest son?"
>"No"
>"The headsman is resisting the spell your honor"
Wooooow, so reliable.
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>>77704520
>Explain what an Arcana check is, in universe,
You read a book that describes how Zone of Truth works, what the words to cast it sound like, and what hand motions the caster has to perform. This level of knowledge is enough to recognize a spell as it's being cast, but lacks the further magical training necessary to cast it oneself. As each spell has different components, it would be extremely difficult for someone trained to mistake one spell for another.
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>>77704617
To be fair here.
They'd be relying on clerics of a lawful god or patron deity of their nation (who is probably going to be lawful anyways)
So cleric goes "I'm gonna lie." and he's probably gonna get punished by his god
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>>77704617
Sorry, I ignored that point because it was extremely inane, as though the kingdom wouldn't be employing a specific order of clerics or paladins who are the ones legally certified to oversee trials, rather than just accepting anyone who shows up and says they're a Cleric. Much like how courts in real life have rules and regulations about who's allowed to be a judge or lawyer.
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Why does basically everyone in these threads assume that in a completely mundane courtroom, all of the issues with courtroom officials lying and being paid off will suddenly vanish?

If courtroom officials are lying and being paid off, no justice will happen regardless of the methods being used.

On the other hand, if courtroom officials are not lying and not being paid off, Zone of Truth will give better results than any purely mundane proceedings.
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>>77704652
>cleric claims their god is lawful, teaches the land of their teaching
>they were told the god is lawful, so obviously, he is
>thus the cult of Scientology lives on
Once again this all comes back to an expectation that the world just takes things in the PHB at face value with no appreciation for skepticism and origin.
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>>77704700
Absolute fucking brainlet take.

You'd instantly have this entire order of spellcasters infiltrated DAY FUCKING ONE by paid off operatives from the Powers That Be.
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>>77704320
I'm assuming they are similar each time. Like, I might not know shit about German but if someone walks into my office daily, goes "ACHTUNG TER BRITSEN" and then walks out I'm going to notice if one day they go "BONJOUR, MON PANTALON!" Instead.
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>>77704617
>lose powers from their Chaotic god for using a court of law to deny another person their freedom
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>>77704722
>The god of justice will just let his order of arbiters be subverted
>he'd totally be fine with having a bunch of clerics of other gods going around commiting acts of injustice in his name
>there's no way for a god or his followers to stop that
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>>77704701
So it's either no worse or better depending on whether corruption is present? I mean shit, if I was corrupt I just wouldn't allow it in the first place but that's just me.
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>>77704150
They are guilty of not answering questions that they were asked in court. Being held in contempt is not a fascistic dystopia.
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>>77704725
There are so many layers of what someone needs to know in order to identify something but it all ultimately comes back to
>Wizard, is this paladin casting Zone of Truth?
>Yup, absolutely.
>"wizard" and "paladin" now control the legal system
At any point it just takes one conspiracy and now everything is compromised.
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Honestly, /tg/ makes it sound like every court hearing has ~50% or more of the officials lying or being paid off.

If this is truly the case, then there is going to be no justice either way.

Also, /tg/ always seems to think that an order of clerics or paladins will always descend into tyranny.
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>>77704770
>They are guilty of not answering questions that they were asked in court
Who wouldn't refuse to answer questions after some fucking rando with authority enchants you with magic? Nobody would trust that shit, magic that robs you of your own free will is not trustworthy.
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>>77704652
>>77704700
I'd rebut this but there's not much I can add to >>77704712 and >>77704722.
Your entire theory on this is, again, based on an unrealistic sort of infinite turtles hypothesis where everything works out because everyone just forms a big line and confirms everyone else is telling the truth. Barring some assumption that the gods can direct action through, e.g., pelor throwing fireballs at people who falsely claim they're clerics of pelor (which raises the further question of why he doesn't do it for criminals in general if he's lawful good), there's no reason someone can't just falsely claim they're qualified for the position.

>>77704701
They don't, dumbass. The ZoT has the issue though that it operates on a pretense of being a metaphysical absolute of reality. So it's just a magical lie detector test, and therefore has the exact same problems that lie detector tests have even if you assume they're 100% accurate, which is that it's far to easy to manipulate them to exactly what you want. The system only works if you just assume that everyone administering the system is perfectly just, which is the kind of nonsense that makes these settings bullshit and unfun.
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>>77704554
That's probably the real advantage. Use it first thing just to try and speed things up, and then if they stay mum or it's unclear then they go to jail pending a full investigation and trial.
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>>77704755
You know how easy it is to infiltrate our country's Supreme Court in real life and pose as an official? Easy as fuck.

Now imagine that in a fantasy setting with magic.
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>>77704792
>So it's just a magical lie detector test, and therefore has the exact same problems that lie detector tests have even if you assume they're 100% accurate, which is that it's far to easy to manipulate them to exactly what you want.

Except it's not, because once you've failed the saving throw, you can't just say "No" to a question where that would be a lie.
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>>77704792
Polygraphs don't work at all.
Only Americans take them seriously. Rest of the world just goes "lol fucking yankee pseudoscience"

>>77704712
Considering most settings like this have very active gods? Thats a great way to start a holy war between a god of justice and whoever this other guy is.
The roles of the various gods are also generally much more strongly defined than in other settings.
>>
>all of this projecting of modern highly-educated, secular, democratic and rule of law sensibilities onto a medieval world
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>>77704853
Polygraphs DO work and they're basically the real world equivalent of Zone of Truth.

Eurojustice is trash.
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>>77704787
The entire premise of this is that "This would work unerringly, absolutely" gets broken down by basic deception until the "unerring absolute system" has so many bylaws and submethods that it has as many fallible elements as regular ones. Nothing about a group of clerics and paladins is inherently trustworthy same as any group of people and even their placement as clerics/paladins is determined by that group itself. Any group that claims to be self-policing is full of shit, and any group that claims to be infallible is likewise full of shit.

>>77704853
>Considering most settings like this have very active gods?
Sounds like it depends on the setting, meaning this entire argument is predicated on nobody fucking agreeing on what the standard setting for this is.

Funny, that.
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>>77704787
>Someone disagrees with me
>"ALL OF /TG/ IS CONSPIRING AGAINST ME AND STUPID"
Schizo.
Also, it's a problem of specific lawcourts. There are (I think) 13 circuit courts in the US. If 1-in-13 officials at each court are corrupt, they're dramatically outweighed by everyone else. But if every official in one court is corrupt, then it's the same net impact but the court becomes thoroughly perverted in justice.

Corruption is always institutional. It's never "50% of officials". It is 100% of officials in a specific bureau or organization, because honest people are a threat to corrupt practices so corrupt people hedge out honest people and invite more corrupt people. So the pretense of "Magical truth seeking", should be corrected to "The court is always right". And when the court is honest and just and competent, it's not a problem that the court is always right. When the court is dishonest or unjust or incompetent, it's THE BIGGEST problem that "the court is always right".
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>>77704811
Okay, I'm imagining a setting where Zone of Truth has always existed, and thus any order of lawful clerics has an easy way to vet new members. People also don't get pissy about the concept of a truth spell because that's just the way things are in the world.
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>>77703441
That's very nice, but the fact that they passed the save does not actually say anything about their testimony. It's possible that they might pass their save and give a completely honest and truthful testimony.

And, assuming that the accused is allowed an advocate, it would make sense for that advocate to argue that the act of parading the accused back and forth over the circle is not only an abuse of the court, but could also taint the jury's perception of the accused. After all, their client has no intentions of lying to the court, and their abundance of willpower should not be something that's held against them in some attempt to sway the jury with anything besides the facts of the case.
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>>77704886
Polygraphs have never been admissible or mandatory in court for a reason, bro. There's logic to psychology and response but just measuring stress response isn't a conviction.
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>>77704834
You're splitting hairs over the fact that it's a fucking analogy instead of arguing against the analogy. I can't use a real world example for ZoT because it is a fucking SPELL in a HIGH FANTASY game you retard.
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>>77704896
>any order of lawful clerics has an easy way to vet new members
Ah yes, as every good law enforcement group does, thus there is no abuse of power in real life either.
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>>77704899
Can you choose not to resist the effects of the spell? Trying to resist an anti-lying spell during a court case at all is pretty suspicious
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>>77704899
Yes or no questions only.
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>>77704886
But they don't.
It's public knowledge how to dodge them and anyone with a whole plethora of psychological defects will produce readings inconsistent with normal baseline.
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>>77704890
>
The entire premise of this is that "This would work unerringly, absolutely" gets broken down by basic deception until the "unerring absolute system" has so many bylaws and submethods that it has as many fallible elements as regular ones. Nothing about a group of clerics and paladins is inherently trustworthy same as any group of people and even their placement as clerics/paladins is determined by that group itself. Any group that claims to be self-policing is full of shit, and any group that claims to be infallible is likewise full of shit.

Then why wouldn't the truth-detection tool actually be useful?
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>>77704983
>Then why wouldn't the truth-detection tool actually be useful?
Because you need to first find someone honest and capable of casting the truth detection at all, and if the only way to find that is with an existing one, you've already fucking failed.
>This cleric can cast Zone of Truth
>According to which cleric who's put them under a Zone of Truth??
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>>77704792
>where everything works out because everyone just forms a big line and confirms everyone else is telling the truth.
In real life, who confirms for the jury if the facts they're being told about the crime are correct? Who confirms that the person confirming it is who they say they are? Who confirms that person is telling the truth?
Moreover, it does not require a mage to successfully identify a Zone of Truth. Anyone can try to identify a spell. For a spell that they would see cast daily, that should be trivial to notice when it's a different spell.
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>>77703307
What happens if the accused refuses to answer? Do you torture them, or declare them guilty on the spot?
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>>77703892
We’ve never had a justice system based on clerical magic. So you have no idea if it leads to fascism or corruption.
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>>77704961
Have you ever seen a courtroom?
>Mr. Jones, is it true you were mad at the client over a cheated card game?
>Mr. Jones, is it true you COULD have killed the client if you were angry enough?
>Mr. Jones, do your parents know you're gay?
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>>77704504
>Yes, your honor, he's totally under Suggestion.

Paid off dudes can lie.
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>>77704983
Not that anon but see >>77704891
Using magic to confirm the "truth" is just a way of saying your statements are somehow absolute. Which means that in the hands of unjust people it is enormously abusive.
The idea that it solves any legal issues is the kind of blind idealism that LEADS to these violent abuses.
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>>77704150
>"did you murder constable Smith?"
>"no"
>zone of truth means he's telling the truth
>"alright, you're free to go, sorry for the inconvenience"
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>>77703500
"What you perceive is the truth" is still valuable in establishing motive
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>>77705049
Except we DO know how organized religion works and organized religion ALWAYS leads to fascism.
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>>77703625

This is fairly well thought-out, but believing the system to be foolproof is itself a problem.

Limiting to just yes-no questions actually reduces accuracy here. For example: "Do you believe X person would have died if you were outside the country at the time?" could be faithfully answered yes despite foul play in a number of ways, ie. He could've still died anyway in an unrelated fashion, or he would die from my machinations anyway.

The interpretation of Detect Thoughts is also an issue as perfidious emotions do not necessarily imply guilt. It could be unrelated, it could be shame, etc. It's too complex without full mind reading or explanation.

Lastly, it's incredibly dependent on lawful participants. The information can be unrelated but very harmful (eg. Unveiling institutional secrets, financial information, personal information, etc), or the interpreters could have an agenda. Someone pointed out it could be faked, ie. go through the motions of the spells but actually cast a Silent and/or Stilled other spell.
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>>77703627
>Magic that forces people to tell the truth under the threat of punishment robs civilians of any freedoms
... how is Zone of Truth any different than "the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God"? By RAW, you're swearing an oath with an almighty deity who will hold you to it.
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>>77705051
Second and third questions would get thrown out in an actual court.
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>>77705070
>only someone completely and utterly innocent could answer no
Wow what a patently unbelievable world, DM, do you even understand people?
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>>77704927
Except again, there's a god of justice who will take away their powers if they fuck up. Unless they're all pretending to worship that god, but that would require the god of justice allowing such a false order to grow to that level of prominence in the first place.

This isn't a self-policing group. They're literally policed by a higher power.
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>>77704855
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>>77704165
>I pay a guy to solve my problems
>A guy I had a problem with was killed by someone
>I wasn't involved with his death
right...
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>>77705035
>For a spell that they would see cast daily, that should be trivial to notice when it's a different spell.
I'm not contesting that because the point has already been made, but what stops you, as the presiding cleric, from just saying that the client is resisting the spell and the answer was false, regardless of whether he did. "The cleric loses his powers" isn't a valid answer, because it presupposes that the cleric is lawful good, but he might not be.

My point is not that magically court rooms without ZoT have solutions which solve these problems. My point is that ZoT HAS these problems STILL, and the consequences are WORSE because ZoT gives the court a cover of "Well the magic made him tell the truth!"
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>>77705130

People will believe whatever lies let them sleep at night. And then will spout those lies as the truth because that's their subjective truth.
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>>77704617
That’s not how ZoT works. You find out if someone saved when you cast it. Not after you ask them a question. If the court cleric did this the judge would immediately know and have the bailiff butt fuck him to death on the spot for such corruption.
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>>77705116
>assuming there's a god of justice
>assuming the god of justice and only the god of justice gave those people their powers
>assuming the god of justice can take those powers away on a whim
>assuming the god of justice has the omnipotence to witness and respond to falsities
So this god of justice can tell when someone invokes them falsely and can punish them immediately...but he can't punish criminals immediately?
Maybe stop attaching so many assumptions to this baseline world case in order to make it work and accept that it doesn't work at the baseline.
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>>77705125
You're trying to use the philosophy of a world that lacks gods, truth spells, and metaphysical planes of good and evil, and trying to use that to say a world with all of those things would be incapable of using them in a just manner.
If you asked someone from such a world, they would say it would be crazy to deny an innocent man the chance to prove his innocence without having the truth of his statement thrown into question by circumstantial evidence.
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>>77705116
If the God of Justice would be so outraged by a group falsely taking his name that he strikes them down, why wouldn't he also strike down evildoers for everyone else? Why do the conflicts in the game even fucking exist if Pelor can just say "No that's mean" and zot someone out of existence with a lightning bolt?
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>>77704853
>polygraphs have never been admissible in american courts
>"lol fucking yankee pseudoscience"
lol
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>>77705171
>"Yes, your honor, he absolutely (failed his save) told the truth."
>cleric lies, immediately outside the range of the invisible magic that only his partner in crime, the court wizard, can determine
Wow what a system, it's inscrutable.
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>>77705114
if he's telling the truth, which the Zone ensures, how would he not be innocent of the crime of which he's being accused? granted, there'd probably a variety of follow up questions, including things like 'do you know anyone who would have wanted the victim dead', or 'did you or anyone you know order his death' or whatever
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>>77704811
>You know how easy it is to infiltrate our country's Supreme Court in real life and pose as an official? Easy as fuck.
Nigger, I’d move out of Zimbabwe if I were you
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>>77705171
Okay
>"Did you kill the king's youngest son?"
>Know he didn't
>"The headsman is resisting the spell your honor"
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>>77705207
>which the Zone ensures, how would he not be innocent of the crime of which he's being accused
THe Zone does not ensure truth, as this entire thread and countless before it demonstrates, you autistic fuck.
>granted, there'd
Moving the goalposts yet again, as usual.
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>>77705111
No it wouldn't.
If the guy had the time and no alibi, that's whats being established here.
The third one would also be fine if him being gay mattered in the court.
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>>77705194
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph#United_States

It's actually shockingly widespread in the USA.
While not uniformly allowed in court they do wind up being used in court a lot.
And they're widely used in government. With a lot of government jobs mandating annual polygraph tests.
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>>77705259
Third is a leading question, any decent counter-argument would have it shot down.
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>>77705183
>Your Honor, I know that our defendant was found at the scene, covered with the victim's blood, holding the murder weapon, and the victim's body parts were found in the defendant's stomach
>but I declare that he failed his saving throw and claimed he was innocent, so he must be innocent.
>defendant pays the cleric 50 gold after the trial
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>>77705271
Do you think a court predicated on "Magic make-tell-truth circle" is going to bother having defense attorneys or a theory of legalistic argument?
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>>77705085
Oh, I see, everything is fascism unless it’s your fascism.
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>>77705245
the spell states anyone affected and within the circle cannot tell a deliberate lie. "I did not kill or was otherwise involved in the death of (insert victim)" is either a clear truth or a deliberate lie. Either you are innocent or you are guilty.
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>>77705310
>posts an image declaring the sjw tactics to deflect onto their target
>literally doing the thing the image says
So you're the SJW?
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>>77705150
>what stops you, as the presiding cleric, from just saying that the client is resisting the spell and the answer was false, regardless of whether he did
The other mage present in the courtroom with Detect Thoughts would be the primary method. Aside from that, there's also the statistical unlikelihood of a random peasant managing to resist the spell for an entire minute, which the judge should also be aware of. If the suspect is truthful and consistent the entire time, then it should be fairly clear that the cleic is lying, or the peasant is very tenacious.

Of course, that's why the punishment for evasive answers is being mailed for a retrial, rather than being executed, so that there is another chance to speak the truth. If the Cleric continues to say that the peasant is resisting the spell so they can't get a clear reading, then they'd probably try to find a replacement who has a more powerful Zone of Truth.

And of course, none of this prevents an actual investigation from going on in the meantime, not does it prevent the Cleric from slipping up and being found out.
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>>77705085
>organized religion ALWAYS leads to fascism
At least 8000 years of continuous existence of organized religion passed with no sign of any doctrine that remotely resembles fascism in any sense.
Within 200 years of the enlightenment, when atheism started to become more common, fascism and communism both became major world doctrines.
Weird.
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>>77705342
>The other mage present in the courtroom with Detect Thoughts would be the primary method
Pay him off. There, now you control the court.
>>
This is a prime example of how common magic settings remove any sense of wonder. A holy warrior who is empowered by the gods with the ability to unerringly tell truth from lies should be a legendary figure, not something so common you can build a reliable justice system around them.
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>>77705088
>Lastly, it's incredibly dependent on lawful participants. The information can be unrelated but very harmful (eg. Unveiling institutional secrets, financial information, personal information, etc), or the interpreters could have an agenda. Someone pointed out it could be faked, ie. go through the motions of the spells but actually cast a Silent and/or Stilled other spell.

In real life courtrooms, why do we trust anyone in the court that they're telling the truth?
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>>77705177
We're talking about D&D, so yes there is a god of justice, and yes, he can take away the powers given to his clerics if they act against his tenets.
You're also assuming that I'm talking about the god of justice smiting them directly, rather than just directing his actual followers to do so.

What you're proposing is a grand conspiracy where a cabal of evil clerics get together to impersonate an order of lawful clerics and ingratiate themselves into the court system, without the god, his followers, or any of the people these clerics accept bribes from being the wiser.
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>>77705367
How is this any worse than a real life court where all of the guys are paid off?
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>>77705191
Where did I say he smites them? I don't said that he wouldn't just sit around and do nothing about a bunch of criminals using his name to do crimes.
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>>77705352
>Around the time fascism and communism became invented, there was a lot of fascism and communism
Dumbass response.
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>>77705342
>The other mage present in the courtroom with Detect Thoughts would be the primary method
The other mage is also in on it.
>a replacement who has a more powerful Zone of Truth
That's not how spells work in-universe.
>none of this prevents an actual investigation from going on in the meantime
If the king is the one who wants the headsman convicted, there's not going to be an investigation.
>which the judge should also be aware of
Legalistic systems are tied into the feudal system, and in many cases the king/duke IS the judge, or the judge works very closely with heads of administration.

I get ebertards think Sharn is the coolest thing ever but it's hardly a place large enough that the central administrative nexus and the judicial system are going to be wildly disconnected and not know or work closely with each other.
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>>77705418
>What you're proposing is a grand conspiracy where a cabal of evil clerics get together to impersonate an order of lawful clerics and ingratiate themselves into the court system, without the god, his followers, or any of the people these clerics accept bribes from being the wiser.

This has happened in real life, and there's no way it WOULDN'T happen in a fantasy setting with actual magic.
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>>77704855
The Constitution and Bill of Rights set out the most self-evidently moral system possible and the world you're in doesn't change that
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>>77705367
Way to ignore the rest of the post.
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>>77705418
>>77705440
>You're also assuming that I'm talking about the god of justice smiting them directly, rather than just directing his actual followers to do so
Sounds like he's omniscient, which means why even bother with a trial when he can tell his followers who's evil? Why bother with a ZoT spell? Oh wait, how can we be sure it's him? Because a cleric claims to be so? Because of things prone to loophole abuse like real justice?

>What you're proposing is a grand conspiracy where a cabal of evil clerics get together to impersonate an order of lawful clerics and ingratiate themselves into the court system, without the god, his followers, or any of the people these clerics accept bribes from being the wiser.
YEAH SOUNDS LIKE A FUN PLOT FOR THE PLAYERS TO DISCOVER, INNIT

That's what the fucking point of the game is, make shit for players to interact with and pretend. A world where a court is infallible just because the DM believes them to be so is not interesting to play in.
>>
Imagine not using a Lawful Good Cleric that belives in a Lawful Good God that has been vetoed by the head of the church.

Also multiple clerics from different Lawful Good Gods faggots

As always, Zone of Truth is the perfect system
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>>77704385
>Judges preside over things they don't understand
This happens literally every day IRL. Who says the spell components are the same between casters or even preparations?
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>>77705418
>We're talking about D&D
Which is a system, not a single world with an objective depiction.
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>>77705466
This but unironically.
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>>77705504
>every LG god is exactly what their followers claim them to be and their followers are exactly what their followers claim them to be
Sounds flawless to me, let the Church of Loki commence its judgment,
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>>77705504
Every "lawful good" cleric inevitably descends into lawful evil.

It's how it works in the real world.
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>>77705498
You seem to be confused. This argument isn't about making the game more fun for players because then they'd just remove ZoT. It's about anons masturbating over how we could just fix the legal system with magic, and everyone else telling them that they're retarded and don't understand anything about the legal system and its issues.
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>>77705532
That’s not how pantheon works in D&D, faggot. Gods existed before man. Read some fucking lore next time. Lawful God gods exist and can’t be corrupted and will take the power of Clerics in an instant for taking bribes. Try harder
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>>77705458
By all means, give one example in real life of a god that has allowed such a conspiracy to exist.
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>>77704787
>Honestly, /tg/ makes it sound like every court hearing has ~50% or more of the officials lying or being paid off.
Having worked in the legal system, that seems pretty plausible even for a high-trust, modern society with a strong ethos of human rights and honesty. This isn't a rare opinion either (at least in the general form; many would disagree with me on the specifics): we had massive protests last year based on the premise that the entire criminal justice system of the West is basically broken, to the point where publishers are apologising for even suggesting that law enforcement could be in any way good, ever.
For anything resembling a medieval society, I would assume that corruption, incompetence, and bigotry would pretty much be the norm.
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>>77705541
And as always, he will lose the veto from the head of the church. Can you make an argument?
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>>77705571
The Christian Church.
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>>77705563
>That’s not how pantheon works in D&D, faggot.
see >>77705516
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>Why is it a bad idea to base courtroom justice on Zone of Truth
Kind of takes away some of the intrigue and tension of courtroom shenanigans when nobody is capable of telling falsehoods.
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>>77705584
The head of church is ALWAYS the guy that goes corrupt first.

Look at real life.
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>>77705498
>Sounds like he's omniscient
One does not need to be omniscient to notice a religious order being founded.

>YEAH SOUNDS LIKE A FUN PLOT FOR THE PLAYERS TO DISCOVER, INNIT
This is dungeons and dragons. Why are you trying to use it for social intrigue involving the judicial system rather than just having it be an easy way for the players to turn over villains and other criminals without having to worry about killing them to make sure that they don't get off on a technicality?
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>>77705598
>Zone of Truth
>Eberron
>It’s not D&D anon
Are you two retarded?
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>>77704886
They work at detecting the things they are meant to detect, but that isn't 'lies', it's physiological indicators associated with stress. Just being a sociopathic bastard who doesn't find lying stressful (which describes almost all criminals) makes it useless as a lie detector.
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>>77705632
Organized churches are 100% guaranteed to turn fascist.

Our country's Constitution was made to prioritize Truth over God.
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>>77705614
Nah, it's more like
>Upper ranks become corrupt
>Upper ranks push one of their own to leadership
>Top of the pyramid gradually hedges out honest members moving downwards
>Local persons who aren't actively taking bribes are the last to go.
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>>77705614
>Head of Church loses divine power for being corrupt
>Gets booted instantly
Do you even try? Zone of Truth the perfect system for justice
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>>77705516
RAW an Oath of Devotion Paladin loses all of their magical powers for lying.
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>>77705395

Generally we don't consolidate power into a single party.
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>>77705633
>implying anyone's fucking talking about fucking Eberron anymore
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>>77705592
That's a church, not a god. Try again.
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>>77703307
>>77705049
>>77705085

>Did you kill that deer?
>Yes.
>Law says death penalty for poaching.
>Poor person trying to feed themselves is executed.

>Did you steal that apple?
>Yes. <12 year old kid>
>Law says removal of hand for stealing
>Kid is fucked for life for shoplifting food

>Did you <insert any crime>?
>Yes.
>>Live in Athens-esque world modeled on Draco of Thessaly's rule

>Did you wear X color/clothes made of a specific material?
>Yes.
>Those are restricted to people of a higher caste than you, pay restitution for your crimes against the natural order.

Shit's fucked.
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>>77705660
So everyone in your world has read the PHB and knows how paladins work?
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>>77705685
Have you tried playing D&D? This is a D&D thread. Seethe
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>>77705658
>Lose divine power
>Get it from another god instead
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>>77705726
>implying people play Eberron
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>>77705649
We're not going to be able to have this discussion if you reject the fundamental premise of a god that is both Lawful and Good with followers that are both Lawful and Good are capable of organizing in a Lawful and Good manner.
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>>77705731
It’s not an instant method faggot. It’s not an exchange house and the rest of the church will sense and find out that you changed Gods faster than you can say REEEEE
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>>77705718
No, but I should hope after however many thousands of years the world has existed, people have enough basic pattern recognition to figure out that guy's whofet divine magic by swearing oaths are a thing.
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>>77703307
Why would they stop at court rooms. Why not a zone of truth on the city council seats, the throne, and in any government buildings. Why not a zone of truth in all stores and vendors. Why not a zone of truth on the whole city.

If it becomes a common practice to use a zone of truth then someone will find a way to exploit it or nullify it to the benefit of those who are rich and want to lie and have those lies seen as truth.
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>>77705584
Why don't you just make an incorruptible church where the god has big tits and sucks your dick every night before going out and dealing with the bad guys for you
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>>77705772
There are no spells for "detect god of choice" in DnD retard. And I seriously doubt every member of a religious org goes around casting "Detect alignment" on each other as a standard greeting unless their DM is relentlessly autistic.
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>>77705824
Because your mother isn’t a God anon. She is just a whore.
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>>77704192
How is a DM who makes NPCs act with OOC knowledge not metagaming?
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>>77705836
Imagine not sensing corruption through divine power and spirituality and direct communication with your God. There are multiple spells for this and Features. Again, Zone of Truth is the perfecr system
>>
>>77703307
It is level 2 spell that lasts 10 minutes. This means that level 3 caster can cast it twice a day. Now level 3 casters are respected people that have their own job. That means few will even bother to do this at shit tier government pay. Just like it is pain to get specialist opinion case only the few are willing to work for the court instead of doing important shit as specialists.
Thinking that you can get meaningful answer from witness in 10 minutes is also an optimistic assumption.
It is not cost effective and will lead to unnecessarily long proceedings.
Also it is not that hard to game. If zone lasts 10 minutes then as defense attorney you have to stall for that time and then ask important question about the case. Then before ruling you protest that important witness X testified Y against your client after zone of truth expired and his testimony can't be taken into account.
Of course you can question witness again but it is time and costs.
>inb4 order of justice clerics and paladins will do it for free
No matter how many unpaid workers you want to hire if you limit them to having 60 (assuming hearing testimony is 1/3 of trial) minutes of trial per day the your justice system will collapse under amount of pending cases.
That means it would probably be used only in more important cases. But this as other anons stated you can get around the spell and if case is important then you have means to do it.
Not to mention that people don't remember things most of the time and you can get two contradicting answers to two questions asked one after another.
Lastly it is about saying what you believe to be truth and you can deceive yourself, create fake memory or be just batshit insane, for example:
>Did you kill X?
>No.
While in truth he did but believes that this was noble sacrifice not killing and if zone confirms truth and it is perceived as major evidence you will have murderer set free.
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>>77705877
>The system works guys, trust me! Your DM just has to invent a bunch of shit to justify all the huge enormous shortcomings of this godawful methodology which does nothing to promote fun gameplay.
It's a game you stupid faggot. At least plugging cracks in a dam with bubblegum has the justification that if the dam collapses it would be bad. But homebrewing more and more shit to fix a system, which essentially everyone already agrees is unfun and ruins a huge number of potential storylines, is just retarded.
>>
>>77705877
Imagine thinking every single paladin is LG by the books and trustworthy and that all gods are trustworthy and LG.
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>>77705772
>reeee it takes time it's a surprise the shift
>the other priests will find out instantly btw
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>>77705927
Yes. Otherwise they lose their powers. Just because your murderhobo and your DM doesn’t it so you don’t screech doesn’t mean that’s how it works
>>
>>77705936
Yes. That’s why they get to talk to their God. Zone of Truth is absolute and you provided no argument so far
>>
>>77705926
It promotes fun gameplay because rather than being murderhobos, the players can turn criminals in to the authorities without having to worry about them getting declared innocent and coming after them again.
Why are you trying to play D&D as a court drama?
>>
>>77705949
>Spends entire thread coming up with increasingly bizarre and rule-breaking explanations of why his shitty isekai'd personal philosophy works
>One anon mentions something that breaks a minor rule for RP purposes
>"REEEEEEE MURDERHOBOING!"
I get it now. You're not just retarded, you're also a bad DM.
>>
>>77705993
>Why are you trying to play D&D as a court drama?
Oh maaaaan, I'm suuuuch an idiot for thinking that DnD was about RP and not about, you know, spend like, 20 hours tracking some guy and beating him up.
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>>77705715
This but unironically.
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>>77705997
>breaks the way a class works so he can murderhobo and fantasize about his flawed argument

RAW faggot. Read it. If your DM allows you to be murderhobo, that’s not my problem.
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>>77705756
They literally aren't. The real world has shown us this.

Every "lawful good" religion is actually lawful EVIL within a few years.
>>
>>77705993

How is that fun? It's exactly the same as being a murderhobo as you have a method to instantly deal with an enemy by just turning them in to the authorities. The fact that maybe they'll get off scot free if you've failed to collect enough evidence makes things more interesting and fun.
>>
>>77706036
>Implying I'm the paladin who would be falling
>Implying it's not an antagonist character like everyone is obviously talking about
Man, you ARE retarded.
>>
>>77706018
DnD has always been a dungeon crawler and it always will be. If you try and use it for something else you have only yourself to blame.
>>
>>77706037
>The real world has shown us this
The fact that you don't like Catholics and evangelicals hardly means that all organized religion turns evil anon.
>>
>>77706037
We're not talking about the real world.
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>>77706043
Because D&D has such robust and engaging rules and options for running a detective investigation, right?
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>>77706094
As always, read the rules faggot. I wouldn’t imply shit about you because no sane person would actually have you at their table
>>
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>>77706101
>No, you're not supposed to use this toy like that!
>You have to obey these arbitrary stipulations I demand you impose!
>I know all of them objectively make the game worse, but if you do otherwise you're wrong!
I choose not to be an unhappy miserable perma-DM, thank you very much
>>
>>77706147
>I'm going to do this thing that seems way more fun and creates an interesting antagonist character
>"NOOOOO U HAV TO FALLO THA RULZ!"
Yeah, I'm the nogames fag here, sure.
>>
>>77706157
Oh, you don't have to do anything. Go ahead and eat all the crayons you want.
>>
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>>77706205
>Oh, you don't have to do anything. Go ahead and eat all the crayons you want.
>>
>>77706189
Play freeform RP at this point, you retard. If you’re gonna change the rules everytime you try to do something “fur the roleplayz” then that is not D&D faggot. Paladinds have been played this way since the conception of D&D.
>>
>>77703307
In my last Ars Magica game players would routinely cruise through tribunals where truth spells were employed by selectively wiping their own memories and sending letters to themselves to arrive after the trial was over.

If any of this sort of stuff is possible it becomes a magical arms race, and the judges will just have to go back to assuming anyone's testimony is potentially fraudulent.
>>
>>77706252
>then that is not D&D faggot
A stunning compliment from someone who I expected to call me a dumbass. I'm so proud my playstyle isn't D&D. My god, imagine how boring it would be if it was?
>>
>>77704960
>Can you choose not to resist the effects of the spell
No. Spells that let you willingly fail a save typically state as such, and Zone of Truth does not. There also some higher level spells and class features (and I think maybe magic items) that grant you immunity
>>
>>77706118
The real world is our only reference for alleged "lawful good" religions.
>>
>>77706375
If you started using real world horses to declare that all unicorns are non-magical herbivores you would be rightly considered a retard.

Why would you compare a real world clergy with a clergy that not only knows God factually exists but they receive magical powers and direct contact from him in exchange for not being corrupt.
>>
>>77706375
We're not talking about the real world. We're talking about a fantasy world where Lawful and Good are as real as gravity.
>>
>>77706464
Oh so the world is retarded. In that case why bother having trials at all? Just decide guilt by throwing pig shit at the wall and seeing what shape it makes. It's justice pig shit.
>>
The moment anyone figures out how to defeat, bypass, or otherwise get around your Zone of Truth, you have been wrongly relying on false evidence.

It's like the hundreds of people who have been falsely convicted of horrible offenses, simply because their DNA was near the crime scene, and that's enough for many jurors.
>>
>>77706618
See >>77705756
>>
>>77704165
>I pay Amazon money for Prime Video, and Amazon mistreats their workers. Does that make me involved in the mistreatment of workers?
Yes, it does
>>
>>77706818
I don't, it's just that magical justice pig shit is cheaper and can be used by a layperson. Pigshit divination isnt resisted either because walls don't have wisdom scores. It's objectively the best way of doing trials, better than the shitty fallable zone of truth. Hell it's so effective it was used in the real world, without infallible cosmic justice or whatever.

If you deny the power of magic justice pigshit, you're objectively wrong since justice and magic objectively exist in dnd.
>>
>>77706464
Law and good aren't real.

If it's a world with organized religion, then it's a world where organized religion will ALWAYS be corrupt, no matter what.
>>
>>77706037
>Game and world has a mechanic where Lawful Good exists.
>"Lawful Good doesn't exist."
>>
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>>77705085
While it's true that real world religion is almost always full of corrupt elements, a fantasy setting works under different rules.
In a fantasy setting there actually is a god of justice, that god is actually just, and clerics/paladins that break from them don't have powers anymore. A fantasy setting might have corrupt clerics, but if you investigated them you'd be able to magically prove they're a fraud.
>>
>>77707144
See >>77705756
>>
>>77707211
Why bother rolling the dice on that? Pigshit cannot be corrupted. Pigshit has no wants or needs. Pigshit is superior.
>>
>>77707101
>I don't
Then there's nothing to discuss
>>
>>77703307
Because basing your judicial system around a positive result on a yes/no question when their is magic that can influence that answer is insane. Alter self and crazy illusion spells exist

>"and who paid you to murder count biggus dickus?"
>"you did, grand inquisitor"
>"well, you heard him, execute the grand inquisitor"
>>
>>77707193
>>77707211
Fantasy settings still have to abide by real world logic.

And with real world logic, organized religion ALWAYS becomes corrupt.
>>
>>77707299
>Good gods don't get followers even though they're half the pantheon and generally lead to good lives.
>Good people don't exist.
>>
>>77703471
>But the caster knows if the suspect/witness is trying to resist the effect which makes him guilty by default. Still the best system for justice

But nobody actually knows that the caster is telling the truth about it. When you have a jury, multiple people have to agree on something and it's open to be seen.
>>
>>77705051
That's fucking dumb, all that cross examination exists to catch inconsistencies.
None of that is needed when you can straight up ask "Did you commit X crime" and it's a simple yes or no.
>>
People in this thread somehow don't realize that Zone of Truth would be AT BEST supplementary to an investigation given the possibility of getting around it. If anything, due to its restrictions on duration, it would be done before the case is heard in court like a polygraph. No one does a polygraph (shitty as they are) on the court floor itself.
Presenting of cases, other evidence, character witnesses, and all the rest would go on as normal.
>>
>>77707347
Correct.

Look at Christianity in the real world.
>>
>>77705888
>Now level 3 casters are respected people that have their own job.
What do you think a 3rd level caster is? What do you think they are doing all day?
"their own job". THEY ARE LITERALLY CLERGY YOU FUCKING RETARD.
>>
>>77704302
and they can't say it while under a zone of truth. so they can't wrongfully confess.
>>
>>77703307
Because doublespeak is the art of lying without actually lying.
>>
>>77707754
>Christianity is controlled by a game mechanic that says it is Good.
You are way too autistic to worldbuild. Do you even play in a non-Earth setting? Can you conceive it? Is fiction confusing to you?
>>
>>77704302
zone of truth is just a magically real version of "i swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." and actually being forced to mean it.
>>
>>77707847
Except that in real world courtrooms, everyone fucking lies all the time, and our polygraph tests show it but are ignored.
>>
>>77703364

I guess not everything could be teleported, not every location has a teleporter, not everyone can afford a teleporter, or not everyone wants to use a teleporter (illegal, dangerous, etc).
Just at a glance.
>>
>>77707837
Show me other examples of "lawful good" religions that didn't instantly descend into lawful evil.
>>
>>77703408
>>77703471
Fascists

>>77703530
>>77703555
Always great to see a “You don’t play games” faggot absolutely obliterated.
>>
>>77707889
>Always great to see a “You don’t play games” faggot absolutely obliterated.
Except he wasn't.
>>
>>77706371
>You can't not try to dodge out of the way of a fireball
ok retard
>>
>>77703604
It was proven you don’t even play games, so why should I listen to anything you have to say?
>>
263 replies 60 posters, op has been bumping this shitty thread a lot
>>
>>77707931
Aren’t you the faggot who said “Fascists?” Kys
>>
>>77703307
Because that's a dystopian nightmare where the final result is that the nobility/upper class is immune to justice and the poors/lower class get screwed by corruption. Oh also religious orders and magocracy totally controlling the means to settle any dispute will be totally fine guys, never been any corruption in religious or guild institutions.

That already happens today IRL, but Zone of Truth in the hands of a select few who get to decide things will just put it into turbomode.
>>
>>77707471
Read the thread
>>
>>77703441
>>77703471
Unless the caster is also inside such a Zone, why should anyone take their word for it that the witness resisted? And who's keeping tabs on the guy who cast the Zone the first wizard is in, ad infinitum. At some point it has to stop.
>>
>>77707979
>Zone of Truth in the hands of a select few who get to decide things will just put it into turbomode.
Says what?
>>
>>77708035
Says history.
>>
>>77707968
play some games and relieve some of that stress. Oh wait.
>>
>>77705191
Because there are evil gods too that want and do evil shit, gods do not have unlimited resources and are probably in some sort of diplomatic situation they must pick their battles.
>>
>>77708022
Not gonna tell the same shit again. Read the fucking thread lazy nigger
>>
>>77708062
What real-world history has had Zone of Truth?
>>
>>77708105
>because thing does not exist irl we can't consider the consequences of human nature or similar circumstances because I am autistic
>>
>This thread again
All there is to take away form this is that ZoT is a shit spell that should be banned if you ever are in a situation where you intend to use a situation where it could be useful for anything but quickly tidying up legal issues because it inevitably goes back and forth until it requires divine intervention
>You cant lie
>But I can
>But we have these measures in place against it
>But I know that, and here are some things that would stop those measures from going into effect
and so on until it reaches the end point of
>But god himself would get involved and make sure the truth comes out
>>
>>77706274
Sounds cool
>>
>>77707889
how is is fascist? to make someone not lie when they are already under oath not to lie? is the ability to tell lies in a court of law an inalienable right?
>>
>>77708062
'''''''''''''''History''''''''''''''''''
>>
>>77708275
It removes their choice. They have the option to make stupid decisions and lie (and potentially get caught in their lie).

Even the shitty US courts don't force you to testify against yourself under oath.
>>
>>77708275
Don’t feed the troll.
>>
>>77703307
Because eyewitnesses are unreliable, sometimes extremely unreliable, in a way that a zone of truth doesn't actually correct for.

This doesn't make the zone of truth inherently bad, but selecting entirely for subjective truth means you get garbage-in-garbage-out problems.
>>
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>>77708366
A simple example of this is the gorilla experiment.

>The best-known study demonstrating inattentional blindness is the Invisible Gorilla Test, conducted by Daniel Simons of the University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign and Christopher Chabris of Harvard University. This study, a revised version of earlier studies conducted by Ulric Neisser, Neisser and Becklen in 1975, asked subjects to watch a short video of two groups of people (wearing black and white T-shirts) passing a basketball around. The subjects are told either to count the passes made by one of the teams or to keep count of bounce passes vs. aerial passes. In different versions of the video a person walks through the scene carrying an umbrella (as discussed above) or wearing a full gorilla suit. After watching the video, the subjects are asked whether they noticed anything out of the ordinary taking place. In most groups, 50% of the subjects did not report seeing the gorilla (or the person with the umbrella). Failure to perceive the anomalies is attributed to failure to attend to it while engaged in the difficult task of counting passes of the ball. These results indicate that the relationship between what is in one's visual field and perception is based much more on attention than was previously thought.
>
>Out of 228 participants of the tests, only 194 – those who did count the passes correctly – were used for statistical purposes further. The percentage was even as low as 8% in one of the 16 tests performed.

Pic related is a screenshot from the video where a full 50% of watchers didn't even notice the guy in the gorilla suit because they were focused on the ball instead.
>>
>>77707889
>Fascists

Fascism is when an authoritarian, nationalist government creates a organization combining representatives from the government, private industrial blocks and labour in an attempt to unify national interests. It's not someone being controlling.
>>
>>77708156
Zone of Truth is fucking worthless because everyone in a courtroom is 100% corrupt in the first place.

If you really did no wrong, you wouldn't BE in a courtroom to start with.
>>
>>77708094
The thread is wrong, I am right.
>>
>>77703307
So what you're saying is, in Eberron, Samurai are the ultimate criminals.
>>
>>77708589
EXACTLY!

Nothing to Fear if you have Nothing to HIDE! Only criminals ever get charged with crimes, duh.

>Note for the retards: this post is meant as as sarcasm, and >>77708589 is actually a fucktard.
>>
>>77703808
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6E3vGHkZwk
>>
>>77706677

>It's like the hundreds of people who have been falsely convicted of horrible offenses, simply because their DNA was near the crime scene, and that's enough for many jurors.

All those guys would have to do to be declared innocent is say, "I'm innocent of that crime" inside a zone of truth.
>>
>>77708687
>EXACTLY!

>Nothing to Fear if you have Nothing to HIDE! Only criminals ever get charged with crimes, duh.

This but unironically.

If you're a law-abiding citizen, you'll never show up in court.
>>
>>77707870
So

>zone of truth is just a magically real version of "i swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." and actually being forced to mean it.
>>
>>77708896
Do you think Japan has a 90+% conviction rate because its police force is so much more efficient, or because being charged borderline guarantees conviction? What's more likely?
>>
>mind control a suspect
>make them say "I am guilty" in court
Excellent legal system there
>>
>>77708310
No? You idiot
>>
>>77708896
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States

https://www.youtube.com/watch/d-7o9xYp7eE
>>
>>77708875
>Go to court
>Mage casts bullshit magic on me
>announce my innocence
>mage wails "they must have resisted it! Lock them up until my spells refresh!"
>get jailed again
>this happens every single day for three years
>>
>>77708310
i mean, i can kind of get that from a particular philosophical pov, but if you have the ability, and it is managed in a way where it is duely stated, there are many other phils that would say it is ok.
>>
>>77709108
>Court procedure doesn't have mage announce whether they've resisted before any questions are asked.
>After so many times where all their spells are resisted, the mage isn't fired for incompetence.
>>
>>77709017
There's also another factor with the Japanese legal system, which is that the state generally only actually proceeds with cases that are likely to succeed. Other people get interrogated, treated like shit for a while in pretrial detention, and then summarily released.
>>
>>77708938
Absolute brainlet take.
>>
>>77708487
It's also quite based and unironically the best form of human rulership both for the spiritual and material benefit of the ruled.
>>
>>77709043
Imagine not having the judge asking some basic questions like
>Are you mind controlled?
>Silence since he can’t lie
>Alright, Cleric number 3. Remove curse and Dispel Magic as always.
Brilliant plan destroyed by basic questions
>>
>>77703307
Because lawyers ruin everything, as evidenced in this very thread
>>
>>77709362
Zone of truth is the mind control, so the answer to the question is obviously yes
>>
>>77709687
>zone of truth is mind control
Actual retard here guys
>>
>>77709234
What do you do about suspects with high wisdom and charisma then?
>>
>>77709728
>cast a spell on someone to force them to act in the way the caster dictates
>not mind control
>>
>>77709777
Did you actually read the spell or are you here just to shitpost?
>>
>>77709791
Its a spell you cast on someone to control them, and it targets their mind
>>
>>77709840
>Has free will to move out of the circle
>Can’t be compelled to actually speak
>Can try to give vague answers that sound like the truth
>BUtz mind controooolll
RAW faggot. Read it. It’s not mind control. Mind control is mind control
>>
>>77709840
You don’t cast Zone of Truth on someone. That’s not how it works.
>>
>>77709734
Don't rely solely on the spell? Duh.
>>
>>77708022
No it really doesn't, it literally just has to be the first wizard.
>>
>>77704886
Intentionally puckering your butthole makes you read as lying on a polygraph.



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