>players go into an expansive cave system full of ancient ruins, deciding to go deeper and deeper>I decide to roll with it, so i attempt to introduce some kind of native merchants to provide a semblance of a supply chain to the party>party comes across a "market place" where a ratmen was trading foodstuffs for gems with a kobold, both talking garbled common and carrying backpacks>The party crashes the trade with no survivors and steals a few rations and moneyThat's like finding a decent sword and smashing it on a rock to sell the metal.
Nah sun. You was trying to be too tryhard when your players were trying to have fun. Don't come back here expecting people to suck your dick and tell you that you are always right.
>player is a changeling>Tries to steal a book in broad daylight in a market full of people>Shit rolls, gets seen>Tries to run, trips, book falls right in front of guard>Goes behind some empty buildings while being chased, changes appereance>Guards get suspicious, tries to ask some questions>Blows her cover, runs to the river, swims to a little island very close to the village>Changes appereance again>Guards arrive on the island by boat>They saw her swimming there>The island is completly empty and devoid of features, it’s just a small patch of land>Gets arrested on the spot>Player doesn’t understand how she got caught
>>77673628Ratmen are made for bullying
>>77673703What about ratwomen
>>77673628This is fine, you're doing great. Now let them continue adventuring until they starve to death. Let them look at thier looted coins and jems and wish they were bread.
>>77673628You have dangerously based players
>>77673628Yeeting aside, aren't dungeons in D&D supposed to be like that? Like, so deep that there is infrastructure and trade going on just within the inhabitants of the dungeon? Like it's a city or something.
>>77674102I'm pretty sure dwarves can subsist on a gold and gem diet.
>>77674128The dungeon of the mad mage is like that. There are even multiple different institutions or places of 'society' within
>>77673628Suffer not the rat to live
>>77674177Sotek has blessed this post with digits
>>77674177>>77674274based and sotekpilled
>>77673628>Party identify the traitor amongst their midst who has been actively making every problem appearing in the region worse in whatever way she can>She is doing this in order to force the hand of the settlement leader, who is on the fence about calling in foreign aid>Because she knows that the foreign aid that will be sent will be accompanied by the person she has been obsessively chasing for the last few years>Once she gets found out due to a tiny error in her story (was actually fairly impressed that my players caught it, genuinely wasn't expecting it), she freely admits all this because the foreign aid was just called already, her goal was accomplished.>Knows she can't be killed because she's basically set up a dead-man switch on an ecological disaster by delaying a migration of magical creatures using poisoned leylines, causing them to cannibalise each other and mutate rapidly>She gets put in jail while the party deals with the far more immediate problem of a ten thousand year old warlord trying to break out of his sarcophagus in the middle of the settlement>One of the party members goes to visit her while the others are doing other things>Asks for an explanation>She says she did it for love>Asks her if she's really okay with the person she loves being in such a dangerous location>She says she doesn't care if she puts them in danger, she just wants to be near them>Player calls her crazy and tells her she needs therapy>She agrees>Player BREAKS OPEN HER CELL DOOR AND ALLOWS HER TO WALK AWAYStill not entirely sure about the logic that was at play here. Sure, we'll just let the irrational and obsessive maverick geomancer out into the forest where we have exactly zero chance of ever finding/containing her again. The maverick geomancer who has been the indirect cause of literally every fire that the party has been fighting for the last 25 days. The maverick geomancer who put hundreds of lives at risk because of a crush.
>>77674552Simps deserve to be beaten.
>>77674066She has four ears. Why does she have four ears?
>One player always splits from party>Never discusses anything with us, neither in character nor out of character>Constantly takes up all the DMs attention with his side story>Always talks about how his side story is coming to an end>Every time there is a "big finale", next session he pulls out another character out his ass and starts over>Always the same story he works on, always separate from the group's story>Only shows up if "there is enough people"We tried to talk with him about it, ask him to at least let us in on it ("I don't wanna spoil the surprise." or "Your characters have other things going on."), wrap up the story (cue "a big finale" which resolves nothing), or just cut out the shit. He tells us what we want to hear, then does what we don't want him to do.I've decided to tell the DM I'm taking a break from the game. If this is what causes the game to implode, then so be it.
>>77674598would you rather have her look like this?
>>77674598The top “ears” are in fact not ears at all, in that they do not process sound.
>>77675488so they are just fuckholes?
>>77673628this is great; give them a second chance, if they murder everything on sight again, kill them with a trap/monster/disease whatever and let them know they could have easily avoided it if they had some rapport with natives.
>>77673628An abyss the players are disrespectful of?Be a shame if they ran into something less inclined to roll over
>>77673697How does it feel to be retarded?>>77674552It always pisses me off when people post stories like this with no conclusion beyond the thing they want you to be mad about. And then what? How did the other PCs react to this when they found out? Was there PVP and juicy drama?
>>77674066That's not ratwoman. That's bitch with glued on mouse ears.
>>77673628Retarded dm who doesnt know shit
>>77673698That was a lot of effort for a book
>>77673628Thats like getting food and treasure.
>>77679286Need to metion that the book was like 20gp and she already had 1.000gp+. She just didn’t want to pay it. But ended up paying a 500g bail
>i kill the monster "merchants" because why not>now throw us steady supplies and vital informations about maps and traps anyways because that's my priviledge as a player!>what do you mean the world wont bend around for us twice in a row?!? this shit will be posted on REDDIT until you are cancelled!
>>77673628You seriously expect D&D players to not kill monsters, but instead to trade with them? Why? What reason would they have to do that? Surely if there are communities of monsters in the dungeon, the party will find plenty of food to keep them going from raiding the supplies of monsters they kill? There's no reason to trust literal monsters. There was no indication that they would be profitable to trade with. There's no reason to think that this will come back on them, since they killed all the witnesses to what they did. Logically, there will be no problem trading with another group of monsters in the future if they really need to. The only way it could be an issue is if those were literally the only two monsters capable of trading in the dungeon, which is completely stupid.The only way this seems like a story of player stupidity is if you were expecting them to capture the monsters and torture them for information on where they keep the rest of their goods. But chances are they will find plenty of equivalent treasure without having to trust the word of a monster.
>>77675026>One player always splits from party>Constantly takes up all the DMs attention with his side storyThis is equally the GM's fault. I refuse to do this. Little side vignettes especially in town, are fine. But splitting the group is just a time suck to be avoided if possible.
>>77679926Who the fuck attacks non hostile anythings going about a daily routine without even trying to discern their nature?>I d-don't want to give up my surpriseYou're a sociopath. If you're role-playing a sociopath then you are doing a fine job.
>>77680739Are a tribal people sociopaths then? That shit used to be pretty common
>>77680888only during serious famines or when they simply specialized in raiding over dozens of generations.People still prefer to profit off eachother in sustainable ways, or trading and slavery would have never been a thing.
>>77680739People in dungeons, that's who. Because dungeons are very explicitly a video-game style environment where everything is a monster and it's fine to just go around killing. If you don't want a hack-and-slash game, don't use hack-and-slash genre conventions, and don't play D&D, which is a game entirely based around killing monsters and taking their stuff.
>>77681340If that's all your table does when you play DnD then I feel bad for you.
>>77681754if you play dnd, i feel bad for you
>>77675026What do you mean "shows up"? Is he doing this during game time or as a side thing?
>>77680739Hunters, exterminators, predators, etc.
>>77673628Make them pay for the mistake. No traders jow, no supply lines, and kobolds and ratfolk will harry them, cave in their shit behind them, etc.
>>77674128Dungeons in general? No. Very few dungeons are like that. Halaster's maze has its own eco-system/ecology, and also leads to many other places in the multiverse, and some dungeons reaches into the underdark, but it's really not the norm.
>>77681340>dungeons are very explicitly a video-game style environmentThat's the most retarded thing I've heard today, goddamn. RPGs predate your conception of vidya by several decades. Fuck off back to /v/, zoom-zoom.>where everything is a monster and it's fine to just go around killingThat's not even true in vidya. Not only do you not play tabletop games, but the vidya you play is evidently the shallowest shit available.
>>77680739>Who the fuck attacks non hostile anythings going about a daily routine without even trying to discern their nature?in 99% of games and circumstances it is not only discouraged to treat the monstrous races like actual people, it is actively *against the social contract* to treat them like actual peoplehell, this even applies to non-monstrous racesafter a fight with bandits, do you bandage their wounds, tie them up in a safe place, and then later come back with your spare heal spells so they can be marched back to civilization to face the courts / the slave market / the salt mines? no, that would be a colossal waste of session time and raise uncomfortable moral questions about the nature of the medieval fantasy setting, instead you're culturally expected to slaughter them where they stand and leave no survivorswith this pattern being firmly established and trained into people, why on earth would you expect them to suddenly break it when faced with a sudden unforecasted encounter? especially since you need EVERYONE on board with your reading, given that it only takes one person to initiate combatsure, if we take some random ratfolk and shove our gauntleted fists all the way up their assholes so we can pull out a roleplaying scene over the course of hours, it's POSSIBLE to wrangle them into solving our supply problems and thus force the GM to hold to that - but why would we want to? it would be a distraction from the continued task of exploration, it would deny other players the "struggling with hunger and thirst" gameplay they implicitly want as per their observed choices, and frankly it would be rather rude inherently speaking
>>77685230if we REALLY WANTED monsters to traffic rations to us, we could do something like extract that as a concession from a tribal chieftain in exchange for sparing his life - that way the qualitative change to our material conditions happens at a dramatic climax, and after a sequence of gameplay consonant with the expectations of the genre"let's take a break to follow a puny little no-name in the hopes that it solves our food problems" is an incredibly unintuitive solution to the same problem, especially since monstrous races are known for breeding like rats (quite literally, for one of the monsters in this example) and thus unlikely to have enough food for themselves let alone these alien surface-dwelling Others
>>77685230you are purposefully trying to be a dysfunctional murderhobo here. there is no reason to attack a potentially useful merchant, unless trading with him will put more power to your explicit enemies than to yourself. comparing him with a bandit or actual feral monster is a simple false equivalence, and hunger / thirst mechanics are an inherent fail state that you never want to risk needlessly if you can avoid it.in short: your adventurer cant into smart adventuring
>>77673628>Party macguffin taken by a bunch of giant ants that tunnel into the ground to take it back to the nest, the giant anthill that is visible on the horizon>One player decides to crawl into the tunnel after the ants like some fucking Vietnam tunnel rat wiggling on his belly>Keeps passing roll after roll to squeeze into smaller spaces while cackling "HAHA get FUCKED anon">Eventually gets stuck, can't turn around, and eaten by ants the size of German Shepards after none of the party wants to go in after him>"WTF anon you're railroading me"
>>77685567>tfw your PC gets stuck in nutty putty cave
>>77673628Fuck em, they are now outlaws.Though honestly, a market place, especially in such a hostile environment, should be guarded enough precisely to deter wandering murderhobos from ruining the whole establishment."Protector of local market + adjacent territories" is what nobility exist for, and there'd certainly be someone who is willing to fill such a power vacuum.
>>77685230There's a huge difference between hostile bandits and simple merchants.
>>77679926>You seriously expect D&D players to not kill monsters, but instead to trade with them?Yes. This is literally built into the games very foundations. Reaction rules. Immediately hostile is as likely as FRIENDLY.
>>77685470>there is no reason to attack a potentially useful merchant, unless trading with him will put more power to your explicit enemies than to yourself.If you attack the monsters and take their stuff, you get their stuff and the monsters are reduced in number at little cost to the party.If you trade with the monsters, you give the monsters resources, which they can be expected to use either against you or other people, while receiving only some of the monsters stuff and risking them poisoning or otherwise betraying you.Why would any rational person choose to follow the latter route, even if they could somehow realise that these monsters are completely different to all the other monsters which they have been fighting? There's no moral consideration, because killing monsters isn't wrong (otherwise the entire premise of the game becomes that adventurers are evil for invading the monsters' homes and killing them).I think you're failing at basic cognitive empathy.
>>77686147>Fuck em, they are now outlaws.First, how would anyone know what they did?Second, who the fuck is declaring them outlaws? The monster courts of the dungeon? They didn't object to the adventurers literally invading the dungeon to kill its inhabitants and steal their treasure, but shanking a couple of traders is beyond the pale? It isn't like they murdered some humans in the middle of the town square. They found some monsters doing monster stuff in a cave and killed them. That shouldn't result in local nobles hunting them down; if the authorities found out, they would reasonably praise them for killing monsters. Monsters aren't under the protection of civilised society, pretty much by definition.
>>77686202'Two monsters who happen to be trading with each other when encountered' is not what people typically think of when you say 'simple merchants'. Little details like 'they weren't people, but rather hideous abominations whose species have proven themselves to be incapable of peaceful coexistence with humans' kind of matter when you're evaluating how justifiable it was to kill someone.
>>77687071>First, how would anyone know what they did?The rats in the walls. Divination spells. This is D&D we're talking about, magic exists.>Second, who the fuck is declaring them outlaws?The people who are now losing profit and/or livelihood. Even in anarchy, organization exists.>They didn't object to the adventurers literally invading the dungeon to kill its inhabitants and steal their treasureWhat makes you think that doesn't provoke hostilities? But markets is where various competing factions can come together peacefully for mutual gain. Destroying underworld markets is like slaughtering peasants; benefits no one.>They found some monsters doing monster stuff in a cave and killed them.If they were "just monsters" no better than beasts they wouldn't be engaged in trade and able to speak in common in the first place you moron.>That shouldn't result in local nobles hunting them downIt would result in whatever factions have an interest in the market hunting them down, just like if you killed humans in a human market you're going to get the local humans angry at you but the jurisdiction over won't care (other than reasonable suspicion of strangers due to now established muderhobo behavior or strangers)Read more, you are in dire need of a wider perspective. Videogames have completely rotted your brain.
>>77686147PCs are consider outlaws in kobold and ratmen societies by default, so business as usual then.
>>77687221Engaging in commerce does not make you a person.
>>77679926Fair point. Depending on circumstances of the setting and where they are, it would be not unlikely these are hostile creatures. Personally I would have tried to discern more information, depending on the situation, but I don't begrudge mistrust of monsters. If I were DM I would have given many ques to indicate these were intended to be friendly creatures. Have another adventurer speaking to them, or have them speaking plainly "I love trading with humans!", But I understand improv is not always so easy.
>>77674598for animal-eared humanoids, I've found that having nothing where the ear should be is a lot more offputting than two sets of ears. Generally if I'm actually getting artwork for them I'll give them outward-facing tufts of hair in that position to compensate.
>>77687221>The rats in the walls. Divination spells. This is D&D we're talking about, magic exists.Why would there even be an investigation? It's a fucking dungeon full of monsters. One of the weakest monsters disappears. That isn't suspicious; the typical dungeon is full of death traps and things which will eat kobolds.>The people who are now losing profit and/or livelihood. Even in anarchy, organization exists.As far as I can tell, the only 'people' losing their livelihood are a couple of low-level monsters (who are dead and in no position to do anything about it) and maybe their low-level monster families.>What makes you think that doesn't provoke hostilities? But markets is where various competing factions can come together peacefully for mutual gain. Destroying underworld markets is like slaughtering peasants; benefits no one.If the monsters are already hostile, why should the adventurers give a fuck about their opinion? Slaughtering peasants absolutely benefits people, which is why it sometimes happened. After you've slaughtered them, you get to take their stuff and the people who depend on them have their power weakened. That's how raiding works and dungeoneering is absolutely raiding. You launch an expedition into hostile territory, with the aim of disrupting enemy infrastructure, engaging targets of opportunity, and seizing assets to deny them to the enemy and take them for your own use. Murdering civilians and looting the corpses is an excellent tactic as part of that strategy.>If they were "just monsters" no better than beasts they wouldn't be engaged in trade and able to speak in common in the first place you moron.So, none of the other monsters that the PCs killed were able to speak or ever engaged in trade? Those were actual monsters, but the heroes should have known that these monsters were different, despite being the same species and living in the same space as other monsters which it is OK to kill?
>>77687221>It would result in whatever factions have an interest in the market hunting them down, just like if you killed humans in a human market you're going to get the local humans angry at you but the jurisdiction over won't care (other than reasonable suspicion of strangers due to now established muderhobo behavior or strangers)So, that's maybe a couple of small monster clans, which would probably kill and eat humans on sight anyway, being slightly more hostile? If they actually work out who is responsible. Assuming of course that they have a human mindset about these things, which is unlikely, because they are monsters and probably murder each other to steal things all the time.>Read more, you are in dire need of a wider perspective. Videogames have completely rotted your brain.I think you're not very good at understanding other people. You seem to have mis-read something I said and come up with a narrative where I play a lot of video games, don't read much, and play hack-and-slash games. All of those are completely inaccurate. In my games PCs routinely engage in negotiation with potentially hostile NPCs, including complex trade deals. But I encourage that kind of behaviour through things like not having dungeons, which are a game conceit entirely based on hack-and-slash gaming where people expect things to be resolved entirely with violence, or NPCs who are clearly monsters with no connection to the PCs society.Likewise, you've completely failed to anticipate your players' behaviour. You had a script in your head about what you wanted your 'encounter' to be and when they didn't follow it, you got angry with them because you couldn't understand why their actions could seem perfectly reasonable given the situation they were in.
>>77686147>Fuck em, they are now outlaws.This is retarded.>>77689526>not having dungeons, which are a game conceit entirely based on hack-and-slash gaming where people expect things to be resolved entirely with violenceWho said anything about a "dungeon"? OP said "cave system". If the term is used loosely, then your point is even worse.>or NPCs who are clearly monsters with no connection to the PCs society.That's needlessly limiting. NPC monsters are often a thing. But attacking them is always a reasonable option if they are of a usually hostile race.You seem to be coming from an "either or" mindset.
>>77673628I once had a player throw a fit when I said he couldn't try to make a dagger out of his own shit. I remember he got really mad and kept saying that a good DM would say "Yes, but" to any plan the players really wanted to do.
>>77690443You can make a prison shank tier knife out of a frozen turd, thats why inmates are allowed to own minifridges any more
>>77673628>retarded shit that players doKumquats.Don't ask me how.
>>77685470Why not just kill him and take all his supplies?
>>77687221The...rats in the walls? What the fuck? Honestly, you just sound pissed they deviated from the script.
>>77673698Why didn't she just say "she went that-a-way, coppers!" and point in a random direction?
>>77677413Well, that's the thing. OOC they were basically agreeing/encouraging it save for one player who has been in favour of executing her ever since she surrendered.I'm just not sure what they expect to happen.
>>77679397Not by the player, by the guards.
>>77673697you are fucking retarded
>>77679926You really try to sound smart but you are just so stupid that it's funny
>>77692484Yeah, anon. It's an idiot. Look it up, retard. And stop using ellipses on posts, you look like a gimp
>>77696509>It's an idiot.Kek, idiom, idiot.
>>77693689Because that would require a moment of brilliance. She had a massive brain fart, which resulted in a collective face palm by all the table
>>77679397>20gp bookWhat did it contain to be so expensive?
>>77679638I don’t think they’d need supplies. I’m sure someone is proficient in survival. They can feed the whole party most places. Also goodberry.
>>77680739>Who the fuck attacks non hostile anythings going about a daily routine without even trying to discern their nature?D&D Chads. Fuck ratmen, fuck kobolds and fuck jannies.
>>77674102This. As sentient life withdraws away from the pain and terror unleashed by the PCs, lichen, poisonous wildlife and undead flesh will be the only organic stuff to eat in miles.
>>77675026>>77680604This is why we don't decker / astral project anymore. NPCs for hire can do that, just have to scout and pay for the right talent.
>>77682318You missed that pary:> without even trying to discern their nature?Even a predator would assess whether or not something is edible.
>>77673628So why would you not kill the trader? You get stuff he sells and keep your gold.
You could have just made the traders humans or gnomes or dwarves. You made them a retman and a kobold because this is nu-D&D where every wacky race is a new friend waiting to adventure! :D
>>77696668Spell book. It didn’t had many spells in it. Like 2 if I remember right
>>77697029>Tries to steal a book in broad daylight in a market full of peopleSeems strange you’d just leave your expensive spellbooks with powerful spells on shelves just exposed in the market place, easily perusable. Anyone with spellbooks to sell has to be smarter than that.
>>77696993Why would humans or gnomes or dwarves be supplying kobolds?Monster-that-you-talk-to (or trick, or sneak past) is a classic element of fantasy and a classic element of D&D. D&D isn't just a racewar simulator and it never was.
>>77697217I mean the idea was that it was an old lady, she wasn’t really sure what she had there but saw some sort of value in it by asking around. The book should actually be worth a little more. Also, there we’re lots of guards there hence why she was caught fast and that town is usually very low on crimes. They don’t really expect changelings stealing books broad daylight
>>77691001No you can't. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352409X19305371
>>77697465Now this is incredible.
>>77697293>D&D isn't just a racewar simulator and it never wasThe older editions of D&D literally had race war bonuses for killing the races you race was at race war with. But I think your phrasing is telling>D&D isn’t just a race war simulatorYou’re right here. It’s a race war simulator and so much more!
>>77698652So don't blame some vague subversive element when you see D&D being run as more than just a race-war simulator.I don't blame the PCs for killing the monsters, but I commend the GM for creating a situation where there was something to be gained by talking.
>>77698741So don't blame some vague subversive element when you see D&D being run as just a race-war simulator.
>>77673697>NAAAAAH>sun>tryhardYou're either a nigger, a retard, or both.
>>77698741Don't commend the GM on coming here and bitching about how dumb his party members are. PCs killing monster races is what PCs do. Its fine that the option was there, but the amount of salt in his OP makes him look like a fucking idiot for not expecting a party of adventurers to kill monster races. Killing things like kobolds and ratmen is literally what adventurers in caves and ruins do. It's like putting a fox in a chicken coop, and then being surprised when the fox murders all the chickens.
>>77673628My main problem is how common sense seems to go out of the window in roleplaying games? Why? Is it because they're automatically assume they're BIG DAMN HEROES and that GM will bend backwards for them? Part of the me blames getting introduced to the hobby via something like D&D Adventurers League where there are specific rules in place to ensure players are treated with kid gloves, but that can't be the norm.
>exploring Malbolge searching for VIP>sneak into a cave>cave is full of imps sleeping in piles>my fatass dwarf can't into stealth, wakes them and causes a fight>druid panics and casts erupting earth>in a cave>everyone including imps begin fleeing, almost lose the sorcerer and druid to rock falls>manage to escape, druid seems happy to be alive>now all of china knows we're here.pngBarely made it out of that fucking plane
>>77699752>My main problem is how common sense seems to go out of the windowOf it were me, using my common sense, and I walked up to a ratman and a kobold trading who said “oh hello human, would you like to trade with us?” I’d rip their heads off and take everything. If the cave became too shitty after that, I’d just turn around. The only common sense throw out is the not killing them scenario.
I run a game where our group's forever GM finally gets to play and he has a habit of having serious tunnel vision when it comes to certain things, especially dungeon exploration. In all fairness, though, this is partly my fault for not learning that if I place an obvious 'go here' objective for the party, they will beeline straight for it.
>>77674102this. Actions have consequences, especially stupid actions
>>77700976>If the cave became too shitty after that, I’d just turn aroundthis/10the entire point of coming down into these caves is to kill monstersif sparing monsters lets you go deeper into the caves... that's selling the farm to buy the cowgo as far as you can without compromising with freaks, then leave
>>77674102Wouldn't that imply that they find literally no other sources of food down there? No cave animals, no more ratmen to steal food from, no kobolds to eat?
>>77685953That cave dude deserved that.
>>77686147You're a fucking retard
>>77673697Did your mother feed you bleach when you were a kid?
>>77699742Yes, and they profited in the short-term by jacking the merchant's wares, it makes sense. They may or may not get lost for long enough to get hungry, in which case they may or may not realize that they made a mistake. It's frustrating when you can't even tell the players that they fucked up. You hope they'll see the big picture, and then they don't, so you post on /tg/.>Don't commendToo late. >the amount of salt in his OPHeaven forbid that a DM should come to /tg/ to complain about his murderhobos.>>77699628Christ, you people are hopeless.
>>77701693You're right, I wouldn't CONTRIVE to starve them, I'd try to give them other ways out. For all I know the PCs are going to turn back after eating half their rations and will make all their navigation checks with no problem. And it's not like there's no risk in doing business with kobolds and ratmen.