>5e>Low-magic settingIs there a worse combination of 2 /tg/-related concepts?
>>76954029Yes.>3.5>Core only>No magic campaign, with "magic coming back later"Had more than one DM try pulling this
>5e>Literally anythingThe second part isn't necessary, as soon as you have 5e you've already got shit.
5e, stripped of all its magic, still is larger than most other published systems. And, it has excellent and diverse combat options. It's actually fantastic for low and no magic settings.
>>76954049That's 3, though>3.5>Core onlyis bad enough
>>76954051>And, it has excellent and diverse combat optionsHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh god. Good one anon. Good one. I'm laughing so hard it hurts.
>>76954051>I have never played any tabletop games except modern DnD and modern DnD clonesAsk me how I know. Go ahead. Hint: It has to do with you talking out your ass and being an obvious retard who has no idea what he's talking about.
>>76954104It's true though. The Battle Master archetype alone provides a wealth of diverse options, and combined with feats you've basically got all you need to field a party of diverse and interesting characters.Throw in some rogue/barbarian/ranger/paladin levels, maybe refluff some bard/druid/cleric/warlock abilities, and you've got a deep and complex game that's still fun and accessible.
>>76954147I can't tell if this is a gag or if you actually believe this.
>>76954125I understand you're just trying to troll, but if you honestly have trouble using 5e for low fantasy, the problems lies with you, not the system. It'd be sad if you didn't realize how stupid you're making yourself out to be, but we both know you're just acting stupid in order to get precious (you)'s.
>>76954051Any system with modular magic rules, such as Burning Wheel, is better than D&D for low magic.I played a magic historian in a game where we used no magic rules, with beliefs focused around returning the country to the golden days of magic. Some terrifying revelations were made and by the end of that campaign my beliefs were focused around making sure magic remains buried in the past.
>>76954051>I attack>I attack multiple times, using all my attack actions>I don't use all my attack actions, even though I have some remainingWow. Such excellent and diverse options.
>>76954168Is this really your best response? Is this your first time trolling on /tg/?I guess when hit by a reasonable and factual response to your bait, rather than the frothing rage you'd imagined you would receive, you're really just left without any other option than to make dumb posts like the one you just made.Maybe lurk moar? Learn how to actually troll, instead of just setting yourself up to be completely BTFO and then forced to make dumb "durr hurr hurr" posts afterwards.
>>76954169>3/4ths of the classes in the game use magic>An entire third of the PHB is spells>The system for mundane skills is only 2 pages and doesn't allow characters do anything reliably even if they're proficient>"HURRDURRRRRR YEAH DEE AND DEE IS A GRAYT GAEM FOR NO MAGIK SETINGS UR JUST RETART!"Ok, retard.
>>76954051You've clearly never played anything else
>>76954177>arguing in bad faithIt just makes you look stupid. Read the book, nigger.
>>76954199>battle master >I use limited superiority dice (lol wtf is that name) to do some fancy movesNo, just stop.
>>76954147Is this bait
>>76954199What response are you expecting when you post patentently false "facts" and treat them like you're making an actual "argument"? Like, to anyone who's actually played other good tabletop games, the stuff you're saying is so ridiculous it doesn't prove anything except your own lack of experience and perspective.
>>76954208>ratio rather than page count>doesn't realize that D&D is a huge fucking system that dwarfs most other games and even taking out all the magic still leaves you with a giant gameNigger learn to read. That will solve all your retardation.
>>76954226>>arguing in bad faithThat’s just an excuse
>>76954248>I want to remove all doubt that I am dumb and a trollStop repeating yourself in so many ways and actually read the book and stop being dumb and a troll. Fuck.
>>76954051This has got to be the most retarded post on /tg/ right now.
>>76954249>>doesn't realize that D&D is a huge fucking system that dwarfs most other games and even taking out all the magic still leaves you with a giant gameNo, stop deluding yourself.
>>76954249Bloat doesn't make a system good. Most OSR products give you the same D&D experience in under one third of the page count of 5E.
>>76954249The melee combat rules consist of d20 attack, spend retard points to add damage to a d20 attack, attacks of opportunity, or shitty battle master/grappling that you'd just be better off attacking instead of
>>76954269>troll unable to counter>just shitpostsAnd, perfect. A complete and total victory against OP's trolling.Thank you, thank you.
>>76954266Maybe you should try reading the book instead of rationalizing.
>>76954051That's a weird way to spell GURPS.
>>76954297>>trolling >t. Troll
>>76954029>5e>No-magic settingWe both know there are people who genuinely advice this.
>>76954051Grab a (You), seems you are desperate for those
>>76954367There are people who genuinely advise playing DnD in the first place. The game doesn't even work for the high-magic settings it was created for, let alone low-magic or no-magic ones.
>>76954051Hue hue hue hue
>>76954051>5e, stripped of all its magic, still is larger than most other published systems.What does this even mean? Larger in terms of public appeal? Map size? Core rulebook page length?>And, it has excellent and diverse combat options.Name one Maneuver your rogue can do without having to take a wholeass feat for it>It's actually fantastic for low and no magic settings.While magic is indeed the worst part of 5e, entirely removing it doesn't suddenly make 5e fun, just less immediately painful to endure.
>>76954411>when you've shitposted so hard you've lost all sight of realityIt's actually amazing how far some trolls will go in their quest for (you)'s.You don't get any just from saying "D&D is overrated, but a good system with a lot of support and a very active community", you need to go straight into "D&D IS THE WORST GAME EVER LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME!!!!!"
>>76954051Even people who LIKE DnD constantly complain about how martials have no options and you have to be a caster to do anything reliably. Even people who LIKE DnD say non-casters are boring, unfun to play, and have to dump mental stats to function which leaves them less capable in certain situations than the average peasant.But yeah, lets use DnD to run a game with only the classes that even the people who LIKE DnD almost unanimously agree are shit. Great idea.
>>76954051>it has excellent and diverse combat optionsOh wow, all of battlemasters 5 maneuvers, so diverse.
>>76954463DnD isn't the worst game ever, but it sure as fuck isn't "good". The only part of your statement that's even remotely true are the parts about being overrated and the part about having a big community... but that second point doesn't mean much when DnD's community right now is... yeah...
>>76954525Don’t forget that they have limited use for some reason.>I can only do a thrust 6 times, but I can attack as much as I want Woah...
>>76954461>Name one Maneuver your rogue can do without having to take a wholeass feat for itDash, Dodge, Hide, Ready an Action, Drop Prone, Shove, Grapple, and a few others including using various objects/weapons/items.The DMG also has a bunch including trips, feints, and sunders, but those are optional because even just the standard set may be a bit overwhelming at first.
>>76954175isn't that just FMA about the philosopher's stone?
>>76954554Literally anyone can do those actions though, they aren’t unique to a class at all>why does that matterBecause people want a class to have identity.
>>76954029yeah>historical modern war setting with gritty realismthat's it, i don't even need a second.
>>76954554And almost every one of those "options" is worse than just using your basic attack action 99% of the time.
>>76954554>even just the standard set may be a bit overwhelming at first.So overwhelming until you realize that all those options are objectively worse than attacking 90% of the time. So, overwhelming for 2 hours.
>>76954051Bait or not this post is beautiful. Thank you.
>>76954587Rogues get Dash, Dodge, and Hide as bonus actions.Please, read the book, and stop making yourself look like so much of an idiot. You're making it too easy, I like trolls with a little more substance.
>>76954615I love how the anti-D&D trolls, faced with such perfect logic, are reduced to mindless squabbling gibberers.
>>76954051Getting in on response to epic bait. Or astonishing retard. You deserve a (you) either way because you're remarkable.
>>76954665>it's bait because I don't have any good response to itYou're so sad.
>>76954642Perfect logic? LMAO HELL NO.
>>76954249>D&D is a huge fucking systemDnd5e is tiny compared to any old systems like gurps, wod, fate and literally any older edition of dnd itself
>>76954673Dogshit & Degeneracy shills don't get a response. They get mocked for their tiny brains.
>>76954673The sad thing is that it's a reasonable reply that actually shows a basic understanding of the system, and that's apparently kryptonite to OP. These trolls have devolved so much that all it takes to make them look like complete idiots is a simple factual statement.
>>76954554>Maneuver>Lists options for an Action>Drop prone>But getting up from prone only takes half of your movement speed>This game makes sense, I swearYou're going to be so sad when you try to shoot someone's leg out from under them
>>76954715Most of those are really not designed to be used with their parts being interchangeable. You're only supposed to use a small section of each, and often just a few fragments of a few books.D&D, on the other hand, has a much higher degree of compatibility between its parts, and its core mechanics are actually fairly robust all on their own. And, if we want to include amateur material from the DM's Guild, 5e bloats up to be one of the biggest games ever.
>>76954557And it was fantastic roleplaying.
>>76954802Dropping Prone is useful action for when the melee combatants are all dealt with and you're still being picked off by ranged attackers. They get disadvantage on attacks against you, which is a pretty good bonus.
>>76954818>D&D, on the other hand, has a much higher degree of compatibility between its parts, and its core mechanics are actually fairly robust all on their own.HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! He does it again! Anon, stop! My sides have already broken orbit!
>>76954029You/your dm weren't smart enough to make it work? Just audit the spell list and possibly remove paladin. Mission accomplished with no new rules neededYou could try Conan d20 1e but thats a huge amount of new rules to learn. Or even convert the Conan spells yourself though that might be out of the reach of someone like you (even if the DMG has rules for custom spell creation and you can use established spells you think are balanced as a basis)otherwise 8/10 gj you fit in welcome to /tg/
>>76954050>DnD bad>GURPS good
>>76954865If this were any other topic I'd be certain he was just trolling, but it's DnD and you have to be an idiot to play it, let alone defend it this hard...
>>76954917>GURPS>NPC gameNPCs hate GURPS, it requires beyond grade-school intelligence to play and is actually a GOOD game. NPCs hate both.
>>76954917>DnD bad>Will leave out the part where he exclusively plays SoTDLMy favourite.
>>76954865You keep shitposting like this, and it doesn't make you look any better. If anything, you being reduced to these kind of shitposts is actually kind of sad. It's like you've lost all your energy and are just trolling because you're stuck in a routine.
>>76954863jesus fucking christ>getting up from pronecosts half of your movement speed>dropping to proneis an entire actionTHERE ARE TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT RESOURCE COSTS FOR THE SAME FUCKING THING5e as a system is convoluted, poorly designed, and jankier than a bootleg video game
>>76954967Dropping prone is free. Read the book, nigger.
>>76954823i'd bet.we just had something that was basically the Father / Homonculus parts of FMA, if you combine it with the FF XIV Ascians, and it was great.
>>76954616>Rogues get Dash, Dodge, and Hide as bonus actions.**At 2nd Rogue Level.>DashOkay if you want to close the distance, but since you already used your bonus action you don't get your off-hand attack.>DodgeWhat, all attacks made against you for one turn are made at disadvantage? Great for when both rolls still manage to beat your armor class. Wait, you also get advantage on dex saves? That'll really be useful when both rolls just miss the mark by a few points, because the advantage/disadvantage system is so great. Good use of an action that could be saved for something else.>HideReal great when every hostile has their eye on you and there's no heavy cover around. Excellent use for a bonus action, right there.
>>76955102It's almost like all the "options" the retard claims DnD has are worse than just doing your basic attack action 9.9/10 times.
>>76954616Rogues dont get dodge as a bonus actionread book>>76955102>Great for when both rolls still manage to beat your armor class. Wait, you also get advantage on dex saves? That'll really be useful when both rolls just miss the mark by a few points, because the advantage/disadvantage system is so great.Actually you should look up the math for this yourself. The problem with Advantage/Disadvantage was it was actually too impactful for how easy it is to get in most cases.
>>76955102Are you trying to make yourself sound stupid?>What, all attacks made against you for one turn are made at disadvantage? Great for when both rolls still manage to beat your armor class. Wait, you also get advantage on dex saves? That'll really be useful when both rolls just miss the mark by a few points, because the advantage/disadvantage system is so great. Good use of an action that could be saved for something else.It's a situational option that can be exceedingly powerful if played right. If you draw all the enemy attacks to you and then use the dodge action, you can dissipate a fair amount of the damage your party would otherwise receive that turn, especially if you have some way to increase your AC for that turn, such as finding cover.It's almost like you have to think tactically, use the environment, attempt to goad and manipulate your enemies, etc. etc.
>>76955102Tell us about your level 1-only campaign in a bright featureless arena fighting monsters with +1 to hit anon
>>76954463>If you point out D&D is a bad game and can't even do its own premise nor niche right, you are a troll2000 called, It asks why you've escaped hibernation chamber and shitpost on /tg/.It's an established fact since fucking 3.0e premiered D&D just can't do its own thing right. Three editions have passed since then and each of them further cemented the status of D&D as a bad game unable to do high-magic heroic fantasy right, despite ostentiably being exactly that.And here you are in a denial that's potentially older than you are alive.
>>76954917>t. the actual NPC, wanking over DnD>Dragging randomly selected game to compareAnd for the record, GURPS did Dungeon Fantasy, which is, surprise surprise, better dungeon crawler than D&D EVER was.7/10, made me laugh for real
>>76955409>If you point out D&D is a bad game and can't even do its own premise nor niche right, you are a trollYou're not pointing that out, you're making it up, because you don't like how popular D&D is and you enjoy trolling on a board where most most the people who play RPGs here play D&D (according to every single poll taken on this board ever, by a gigantic margin).No one's fooled. You're a dumb troll, and I can call you out on this easily.
>>76955349>If you draw all the enemy attacks to youAnd how the fuck are you going to do that? Last I checked 5e has no taunt type mechanic and the rogue is never going to look like the most threatening or feeblest target to any group of monsters.
>>76954917You would be hard-pressed to find a D&D hating GURPSfag on this board that has actually ever played GURPS.They're all nogames from /v/ who take their /v/ tradition of being retarded tribalists with them. They're basically making the TG version of console war threads.
>>76955582Is this your new tactic now? Calling everyone who hated DnD a same fag and "one very dedicated troll" not working for you anymore? Hate to break it to you, but calling us all /v/-posters isn't going to work any better. Cope harder.
>>76955572> the rogue is never going to look like the most threatening or feeblest target to any group of monsters.Make your pick mate. Feeblest is easy for small and light rogues, like halflings. Most threatening is also easy if you sneak attack and murder someone with 50+ damage from the word go.As far as taunting, that's a charisma check.C'mon, man. These are easy answers, right in your grasp. All you have to do is stop bad faithing already and read the book.
>>76955795I'm pretty sure it's just three anti-D&D trolls. At most. They might even have their own little discord.In any case, even when they're trying their hardest and samefagging like mad they can't really make themselves look like more than three people. It might actually just be two people, with one of them going really fucking hard. But, I think it's three, definitely three as the maximum.
>>76955145And yet, he'll still vehemently defend them as being "diverse." Sad!
>>76955349>If you draw all the enemy attacks to youHow so? There's no mechanic for taunting in 5e.
>>76955387Tell me how your ridiculous, extremely specific, knee-jerk response to everything I said is the only way to screw any of those abilities over.
>>76955102As a monk with a cloak of displacement, let me tell you free dodging is wonderful for squishy melees. that and diamond soul kept me from dying literally every fight.i'd recommend grabbing defensive duelist, but rogues already get uncanny dodge so it's not a must.
>>76955145its better than the offhand attack its replacing, especially because to get an offhand your mainhand needs to be light.
>>76954818>Most of those are really not designed to be used with their parts being interchangeable.>Gurps>Old dnd like 3e and 2e>Not supposed to use all their shitObjectively wrong, and even in wod case, there's more splats about vampire the masquerade than 5e books out right now
>>76955795when did i say samefag in my post retard?
>>76956210>>76955572>no taunts in 5ethere are several. ancestral guardian barb, cavalier, compel duel, goading attack (which as a maneuver is available to anyone willing to take level of fighter or take a feat), and i thiiink the variant rule for Marking but i'm not 100% sure all come to mind.Or, most relevant to our rogue friend here and a total checkmate on you, Swashbuckler's Panache.i feel like there might even be a magic item but i'm less sure about it.but yeah nah, read the fuckin book homie.
>>76956303>as [this class we weren't talking about] with [this magic item we weren't talking about] and [this feature we weren't talking about from this class we weren't talking about] this feature actually isn't useless!Sure, when you add in a bunch of other bullshit, anything can have a patch of duct tape applied to it. We're talking about how this shit doesn't stand on its it's own, not a bunch of multiclassing and magic items you begged your DM for.
>>76955932>Hasbro's marketing department hires people this retarded.
>>76956316Since when does a rogue attack with non-light weapons, besides in the very rare case they'd use a bow (in which case dashing would be fairly unnecessary)?
>>76956455>Xanathar's Guide to Everything>Panache is 9th Level>it's a charm effect, so fuck you if your target is immune to charming>more disadvantage bullshitHow many more irrelevant sources are you going to dig up to move your goalposts?
>>76954051>tfw you can't tell if this is b8 or not because you know retards who unironically believe this.
>>76954029>fucking just 5e>anything
>>76956600I can at least give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's not bait, because they've been arguing about it for most of this thread.
>>76954487>picImagine being this butthurt after all these years.
>>76954029>this entire thread
>>76956839(You) don't have to imagine much, with how you're living the butthurt right now.
>>76956600>>76956737You're really trying this? Hoping that retarded shitposting can save you and your thread after one post sinks your entire thesis?Who are you even posting for? Do you think anyone's dumb enough to think "Wow, look at all these empty shitposts posted by retards with shitty taste in reaction images, I should agree with them about how a simple and factual post that murders OP must be bait!"Look at yourself. You really need to have a low opinion of /tg/ if you think anyone is here is stupid enough to take your shitposting seriously.
>>76956876This is your hot reply? Fuck, is this really your best?Everyone knows that's a dumb troll image that was dumb a decade ago and is dumber even now, and you're genuinely pleading with onlookers to take you seriously.You're a mess.
>>76954587>Literally anyone can do those actions though,Yeah, but certain classes can do some of them better my metric of the fact their primary ability scores favor some over others.Also, this take is absolutely hilarious coming from a board that both shits in D&D's lack of options and pushes classless systems constantly.
>>76954208To be fair, XGE expands the uses of skills tremendously, on top of providing non-class rules that isn't more spells and magic items
>>76954967>Another D&D "critic" that never actually touched the bookImagine my shock.
>>76956963>from a board From three guys. Most of the board doesn't obsess over D&D the way those three guys do, at least not to the point where they feel the need to constantly shitpost about how mad they are that people want to play/discuss D&D.In fact, most people who play RPGs on this board play some flavor of D&D. They know it's got problems (all games have problems), but they either have at least a double-digit IQ and can figure out how to work around those perceived issues, or they personally don't consider them issues to begin with.
>>76956894/tg/ has been dead since fucking quest threads killed it. So yeah, my opinion of /tg/ is low. But sure, I'mma entertain this idea. How is 5e good for a no magic campaign?
>>76957039Take your meds, schizo.
>>76955932How does WOTC boot taste?
>>76957039>One guy posts shit opinion>Literally everyone else in the thread calls him out>"I-it's just 3 guys spending their free time coordinating on Discord against D&D I swear">3 guys>28 unique posters in the threadYeah, I'm sure it's just 3 guys with proxies and not just one deranged WotC fanboy. Why don't you tell us more of your future era mech warfare setting for 5e?
God, Imagine having to either take a 3 level dip into fighter or take a feat to attempt to disarm someone in combat. Even if you do, you only get so many attempts a short rest to disarm someone. Barbarian doesn't even look at that fun, since it's just >attack action or>attack action, but I roll advantageAt least if you're going for low/non-magic barbarians. Honestly, It'd be better to use something like wayfarers if you want fun melee combat.
>>76957455If I'm being honest, fucking Dark Heresy (first edition as I have no experience with 2e) does a better job of being a low/no magic feudal system due to the way combat works.
>>76957489I haven't touched first edition (and barely touched second), but you're probably right, at least in terms of complexity. I just enjoy how disciplines work in wayfarers, one of the more enjoyable monk experiences I've had
>>76957554I've not actually touched wayfarers at all so I can't speak to whether or not DH is better, I was referring to it being better than 5e. Would you recommend wayfarers for people who have only played 5e? I'm trying to shift my current group to a better system.
>>76957489Honestly, I'm looking at a bookshelf of RPGs that do low/no magic, hell even D&D, better than 5e. I'm not going to list everything but my eyes immediately fell upon B/X, Warhammer Fantasy, The One Ring, Runequest, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Black Hack, and MÖRK BORG.At this point I think Traveller restricted to TL 2 would do D&D better than D&D.
>>76957593They could enjoy it, It's got a few issues honestly. Armor does damage reduction but can make you easier to hit. Healing is very limited for after combat. It does have a freeform system for how you build your character. You get discipline and proficiency points, with disciplines being combat oriented for the most part, and proficiencies being knowledge and skills. Magic is a bit hard to get into, discipline point wise. I would say it would be easy to get into if they're used to 5e
>>76954487I think this chart is a little bit flawed because it's only talking about what these classes CAN do. Yes, it's stupid that after all these years martial classes still have almost zero mechanically enshrined (goalpost shift ultra: and also official) features, subclasses, etc. for doing anything that isn't making hit points go down. It doesn't help that the options they DID receive in 5e to address this are almost universally hated. See: Champion, and Fighter as a class having designated levels for "adventure" features instead of "combat" featuresThe reason people continue to play the game is because these faults are still pretty trivial, and because this graph only covers one axis. There is also depth to take into account here. Martials are still numerically REALLY GOOD at making one guy's HP go down. I think this has only gotten worse with time, because WoTC INSISTS on measuring magicusers' AOE DPR as if they are only hitting two targets when this is almost always not how AOEs are targeted in practice. The real systemic failure of DnD isn't the gap between mages and martials, it's the gap between mages and the "everybody" else here, since I'm going to assume that non magical skill monkeys (only rogue as of 5e) and Monk (arguably a martial, but I see a lot of people claim this class is too spread out and dogshit.) are the classes that go in that region. Their problem is that they interact with the abstract parts of the game that aren't DPR, unlike Fighter, but WoTC still measures their effectiveness and I still see people arguing about rogue's DPR on the internet when the real travesty is that they get some token features to make them better manipulators and masterminds that... only just increase their skill checks. Magic deals in absolutes, changing rules and enforcing guidelines on scenario resolution with the hard facts behind what a spell does. A mundane specialist still has to play mother may I with the DM.here is helpful shitpost diagram
>>76954029waifus + anything
>>76956894>retarded shitpostingNigger you're the one making a claim that is factually fucking wrong. A full third of the the players hand book is spells and magic and yet you're trying to pretend that >i roll 2d20 and pick the better option then 1d12+5is somehow more than any other system with combat as a focus
>>76954051>5e, stripped of all its magic, still is larger than most other published systems.It really isn't. As an example looking at its weapons list it only has 37 weapons, of these very few are mechanically worthwhile to take, for example why ever take a greatclub when a staff can do the same damage but also be wielded with one hand? Or even moreso, why take a crossbow when a heavy crossbow Beyond that several weapons are mechanically near or completely identical, for example a war hammer, longsword, and battleaxe are all the same weapon just with different damage types which rarely impact gameplay and can rarely specifically be planned for. Meanwhile a halberd and glaive are completely identical weapons.So assuming you have proficiency in all weapons (which all fighters and thus in a low magic game most PCs) do there are only a handful of weapons that aren't objectively bad.>Want to fight at range?Longbow, heavy crossbow if you want to get the crossbow expert feat or whatever, everything else is objectively bad.>Want to fight with a one-handed melee weapon?Battle axe, longsword, or war hammer, doesn't matter which you choose.>Want to fight with a two-handed melee weapon?Maul or greatsword, doesn't matter which.So in practice you only have 4 weapon choices, longbow, crossbow, one-handed melee weapon, and two-handed melee weapon, the majority of the weapon differences are fluff.
>>76956593He can't have that many, considering 5e is probably the most content-free edition out there, even if you count 3rd party knock-offs.
>>76954818That post is only true if you mean D&D4.And D&D4, we all know, is "not D&D"
>>76954051Excellent bait. Got me and everyone else to reply.Oh, wait, you actually meant that.
>>76958019hey now, the last three fighters have actually been halfway decent when it comes to their noncombat ribbons.echo fighter gets an expendable flying scout familiar made out of you.psi warrior gets shortterm flight and bigdick telekinesis.and rune knight gets all kinds of neat stuff.also battlemaster now has noncombat maneuvers for skill rolls.WAAAAY better than jack of all trades for physical skills.
>>76954199>says something retarded>is surprised when everybody treats him like a retard
>>76954051Toasting in epic bait
>>76954051Lol retard. 5e is at the very best moderately bad.
>>76954051>below double digits worth of pages for all the non magic rules>more expansive than any other rpgYou have clearly never played an rpg other than 5e
>>76954917GURPS is literally better than 5e at anything and everything.Mind you, that doesn't really say much about GURPS.
>>76956894This is what giving the benefit of the doubt gets you these days, huh? Keep your bad faith to yourself, there's already enough of it to go around.
>>76957455Reasonably, a character should be able to imitate the secondary effects of Battlemaster maneuvers. The difference would be it being a contested check rather than a saving throw, and being in place of an attack rather than on top of one.So, for example, a Battlemaster can hit someone with their sword and trip them, while anyone else could try to Shove them with an Athletics check instead.You could make a similar case for being able to disarm someone, distract someone, frighten someone, etc. But of course that's getting into the territory of asking your DM if you can do that, and if the system was better it would have those mundane combat options be core, and frame the Battlemaster's maneuvers as free uses of those options.
>>76958019You missed the point of the diagram that there's literally things people can do IRL that martials can't at maximum level, including some physical feats.
>>76954946GURPS is not good, accept it, and cope.
>>76954818>gurps isn't meant to be interchangeablebitch it's EXCLUSIVELY meant to be interchangeable. Gurps isn't a system its a system for making systems. Like if the entirety of D&D was made out of variant rulesets all meant to work together, with none of them marked as the default assumed rules.
>>76957441No one's falling for it. You're trying your best, but it's really obvious how desperate you are to try and pretend it's more than just a handful of trolls who are trying their damn hardest to pretend 5e can't do something it can do quite well.You're really slighting /tg/ by trying to pretend that it's as dumb as you are pretending to be. Desperate samefagging on your part doesn't do much except highlight how incensed you are about the fact that you can't handle the simple truth that 5e doesn't even need magic and it still has an ample amount of material to work from.You might not like 5e, but that's just your personal bag, mate.
>>76958924There's a lot of subsystems that don't work well together and are not intended to be used simultaneously. Most of the magic subsystems are not particularly well balanced relative to each other, and really need a one-or-none approach.
>>76959111Came here just to tell you that it's literally over half the thread. Shut the fuck up.
>>76959211Exactly. Do you really think twenty people would make the same style of shitpost as you have made? That that's even moderately believable?Maybe if you stopped after one or two, that might have seemed like a believable response, but you really just couldn't help yourself, and were so terrified of the idea that people were no longer taking your "5e can't do low-magic" trolling seriously that you just went into trolling overdrive.You've made a spectacle out of yourself, and you're STILL trying to act like anyone with even half a brain would fall for your samefagging. It's actually sad to see you like this, because your private world where you can shitpost like you're on /b/ and not look like an idiot on /tg/ is a sad little place that you can't seem to get out of.
>>76959383>being this much of a schizo. take your meds
>>7695938338 unique posters and only one person agrees with you (yourself).I know you're a troll but you've been keeping this up for over 3 hours now. It's truly pathetic.
The first time I played D&D I was a cleric and had to play a campaign with no magic because "the magic of the world has vanished and you have to get it back". This got established in the second session so I was cucked the rest of the game.
>>76958347I've always had a personal dislike of the subclasses that just make a nonmagical character magical, but without spell slots or anything that would make them a caster. Especially when the things that these magic non-casters do are just recycled and upgraded specializations of things that the wizard and cleric can just consult their titanic spellbooks for.Remarkable Athlete is not a mistake that has been repeated even if the design philosophy that created it is still used for new fighter subs. The magical non-caster subclasses coming out of UA have been incredibly powerful, and dissatisfaction with the method doesn't change the results.Also, are the battlemaster skill maneuvers official now? I thought they were still UA content, which I don't have a problem with but I generally leave out when evaluating the state of 5e. They do not break mundane characters away from the problem of relying on skill checks where mages have spell descriptions, but adding more die to a roll at least feels good, it's a start for something.>>76958743I admit that you are correct. Call my interpretation charitable, but I think it demonstrates one of the issues with 5e's design that people frequently leave out when they talk about caster supremacy. The point I missed, that an exclusive interpretation of what can and cannot be a game action leaves martials unable (in any sense enshrined in game mechanics) to do things a normal person can outside of the game, is valid. However it's really only indicative that D&D has a defined, limited scope, something no one but the people trying to use 5e for their post apocalyptic sci fi survival game will debate, and that spells have become bloated with special abilities that act outside the scope of the game. At least, the game the non casters are playing.
>>76959383Cope harder nigger
>>76958739A reasonable system wouldn't separate casting classes from martial classes and sneaky classes.Anyone with some time on their hands and a mind for the basics can make a class based system where everyone has magic to augment their role in the party, instead of just having "wizard" and a bunch of "wizards, but worse."
>>76959413You're really the worst kind of shitposter, the kind that tries to take advantage of the anonymous nature of this website. You're the reason we can't have nice things. This is supposed to be a place where every post stands on its own merits, but you're really hoping that you can game the system here and not look like an idiot doing so. You're hoping that you can shitpost enough times to trick some idiot into just counting all your "IT'S BAIT" posts and not wonder why so many idiots couldn't do anything except scream "IT'S BAIT" while the few people that did anything else got their posts eviscerated. You're really fucked up, and now you're here hoping you can try to do some last minute damage control while you are laid out for everyone to see as one of the most pathetic trolls on this website.Look. It's 2021. Everyone knows how to refresh their IP, no one takes the poster count seriously anymore, and people who've actually spent any time at all on this website know how to judge posts and can pretty easily see when one person is samefagging and samefagging hard. Your big mistake is being such a fucking idiot that you have no clue how big /tg/ is. It's not that big. While we're one of the top fifteen boards on 4chan, we're dwarfed by places like /v/ or /b/ or /pol/ or wherever it is you generally frequent, and even a dozen people replying in an identical fashion comes off as a bit fishy. When you compound it with how fucking stupid your shitposts were, it really seems like you're thinking you're actually in /b/, where there would be no shortage of idiots of the caliber you're pretending to be.Now, run off back to /b/ or /v/ or /pol/ or wherever it is you usually troll, and stop acting like /tg/ is as stupid as you genuinely are. I know you're just pretending to be an idiot, but you really must be tapping into some genuine stupidity as well if you think anyone is fooled by your /b/-grade antics.
>>76959657>tfw been on /tg/ since 2007. >some faggot calls you a /b/tardMaybe don't have shit takes, schizo.
>>76959751Oh shit nigga, if your claim is true, you're an ultra retard because all these years and you've still not learned a single fucking lesson.You're better off admitting to be a newfag, because then you'd at least not be admitting to be a complete fucking retard.
>>76959818>is on 4chan>isn't a retard. Pick one, faggot
>>76959751>schizoYou may have been here a while, but that doesn't mean you belong.
>>76954049>Core onlyThat's a big no from me right there.
>>76959383>>76959657>>76959818Nigga what in God's name is wrong with you that you're wasting this much time going to bat for a system as shitty as D&D.
>>769598384chan isn't /b/, retard. Stick to /b/ if all you know is shitposting. Hell, shitposting isn't even allowed on /tg/, you complete fucking hundred-percent-plus nothing-remaining absolute retard.
>>76959870>Reeee, nuuu you can't use that word.Cope harder, faggot.
>>76954169>>76954051I used to wonder why people posted bait. What's the point of saying something no one actually thinks? Or pretending to be retarded? For what? (You)s?But now I know. It's hilarious.
>>76959896Calling out a troll for being a dumb troll is independent of the fact that he's trolling about D&D. This nigger would probably troll about GURPS if GURPS was the most popular system, but it isn't so here he is.Don't you get tired of idiots trying to act like /tg/ is as dumb as they happen to be? He does his best to ruin any fair and sane evaluation of D&D, because his only joy in life is being a dumb cunt and shitposting.D&D? Not the best system. It's also not a bad system, and it's nowhere near as limited as the trolls needs it to be for his shitposting agenda to continue. There's no reason to extend to him the benefit of the doubt, because he's not even trying anymore to do anything but look like a dumb troll. So why not call him out on it? He's given up, he's not even bothering to do anything but the dumbest and most obvious shitposting, so the next step in the dance is to call him out on it and watch him fucking flail like a retard in total damage control mode because he's stuck in a shitposting routine and is scared what might happen if that would get disrupted.
>>76960024While I don't think d&d is completely awful, my main issue is that it doesn't do any one thing very well. There's better systems for roleplay heavy campaigns, better dungeon crawlers, better low or high fantasy systems. In my opinion, d&d as of right now is a lukewarm compromise. It can do pretty much anything due to the way its designed but it feels clunky and inhibited imo.
>>76954029Yeah, any previous version of DnD and a low-magic setting. You sound painfully new.
>>76960024>>76960175Even in terms of D&D, 5e wouldn't be my first choice for a lot of campaigns. If I want something simple AD&D or 2e are far more basic. 4e is much more suitable for a combat-focused hack and slash. And if you really want high fantasy hijinks, 3.5 offers a lot more options for that.5e is literally designed to try to be as unspecialized as possible.
>>76959383Sorry, no, that was my only post in this thread. By all means keep projecting your own trolling and samefagging on everyone else, though.
>>76960024>trolling about D&DD&D is badIts a beginner's game that people never move past
>>76960175>a lukewarm compromise.That makes it a great system.Let's take four games, Game A, Game B, Game C, and Game D.Andy likes game A, hates game B and C, but is okay with game D.Billy likes game B, hates game A and C, but is okay with game D.Carly likes game C, hates game A and B, but is okay with game D.Now, which game would you recommend they play in order to ensure everyone has a good time?D&D is a crowd pleaser meant to be everyone's second favorite system. And, in some cases, it ends up being their favorite system, but let's ignore Danny for the moment. The basic idea is that if you've got a diverse group with diverse tastes, 5e's lukewarm design will not immediately offend anyone. It's not like 3.5 or 4e or GURPS or SotDL, which cater to a specific group while being offputting to most, but instead just hopes to bring as many people to the table together.
>>76960317I think that only works if you want everyone to have a decent to okay time. I'd rather put together a group that enjoyed playing Game A and another group that preferred game B. But I get your point of it being designed to appeal to the broadest group possible.
>>76960024>nowhere near as limited as the trolls needs it to be for his shitposting agenda to continueWhat mechanics does 5e offer other than combat and magic? How would you resolve a social encounter without concentrating an entire debate into a single roll? How do you handle downtime activities? Why did it take the publishers until Xanathar's Guide to offer guidance on ways to use your tool proficiencies? What guidance is offered for challenging and changing a character's core beliefs? Where are the rules on dungeon exploration: tracking time, exploration protocol, dungeon roles etc?5E is a high fantasy combat simulator with dungeon elements, nothing more.
>>76960357If you've got four Andy's, of course play game A.If you've got two Andy's and two Billy's though, game D seems like the best compromise. Even three Andy's and one Billy makes game D not a terrible option.Game system, after all is just a small part of the overall experience, and who you play with is often dramatically more important. Even if I loved Game A and hated Game C, I'd be down to play Game D if it meant playing with Carly.
>>76960203>OD&D>B/X>BECMI>Rules Cyclopedia>AD&D 1E>AD&D 2E>worse for low-magic than 5EYou sound like the new one.
>>76960410All your questions are answered in the books. Seriously. Read, you dumb nigger.
>>76960456They're actually not. I explicitly chose topics not covered in any of the books. Have you tried reading them?
>>76960431>after all is just a small part of the overall experience,Speak for yourself. I've been in campaigns where the system singlehandedly ruined them.
>>76960478>i chose topics not in the booksExcept they are, you triple dumb nigger. You'd know that if you actually read them.
>>769602033.5 is the only edition of the game that handles low magic worse than 5E.
>>76960488I have the books in front of me. They are literally not covered. You're really bad at this, and this dedication to trolling is just pathetic at this point.
>>76954051If you're being serious I pray for you, if you aren't you are probably a god-tier GM or player anon. Either way you just broke this board.
>>76960481Then you're a moron who doesn't know how easy it is to bend systems to your will.If you're the GM and you don't know how to make a system fun and you're still deciding to use that system, you're a moron, plain and simple.And, if you were the player and you're trying to blame the system for ruining the campaign, you're a super moron for not blaming the GM instead.
>>76960551You can fuck right off with your systems can't fail, they can only be failed bullshit.
>>76960513>How would you resolve a social encounter without concentrating an entire debate into a single roll?>How do you handle downtime activities?>vWhat guidance is offered for challenging and changing a character's core beliefs?>Where are the rules on dungeon exploration: tracking time, exploration protocol, dungeon roles etc?Guess how I know you don't have the DMG in front of you, you fucking moron? Jesus Christ you're going to feel like an idiot when you open that book.
>>76960551this man has never seen FATAL.
>>76960574If you've read the system and feel comfortable with it enough to the point where you're running it, and you don't understand how to fix a potentially unforeseen issue on the fly, you're a fucking moron.It's like being a chef and cooking for friends. If you serve a bad meal, you can't blame the recipe.
>>76954051Doing that kind of campaign with someone right now, its awful.I wanted to play monk and I can't even choose the subclass I wanted, Shadow.
>PbtA>Grid CombatHow’s that?
>>76960613I'll just reiterate it for you: >>76960574
>>76960647A system you've decided to run can't fail because it's not a dead thing. You're not a slave to the system and can make any changes you need, whenever you want, without any coding knowledge or special skills.If you're running FATAL, that's your fault right from the start. If you're running GURPS and haven't read the books, that's your fault. If you're playing D&D, and one player is lagging behind because you haven't tossed him the class-specific item that would put him on par with the rest of the group, that's on you too.
>>76954029>Fantasy Game>Using DnD
>>76954049>3.pf>No magic campaign, with "magic coming back later"I've def seen one dm back in school who tried to do this shit.
>>76960735>A system you've decided to run can't failWrong.
>>76960576Except I do have the DMG in front of me.>How would you resolve a social encounter without concentrating an entire debate into a single roll?Chapter 8, page 244-245, the rules explicitly prescribe "Give NPCs an attitude on a scale of Friendly, Indifferent, or Hostile and have the player make a Charisma check. This is concentrating dialogue into a single roll. Where are the rules for running debates?>How do you handle downtime activities?Chapter 7. In 5E as written, your character can engage in one of SEVEN downtime activities, which all boil down to "Roll 1d100 and/or spend money." These are not proper downtime rules. Building a stronghold gives a sample list of buildings and construction costs. Where is the guidance on securing land, clearing your land, hiring professionals, hiring a labor force without upsetting the local noble?>What guidance is offered for challenging and changing a character's core beliefs?None.>Where are the rules on dungeon exploration: tracking time, exploration protocol, dungeon roles etc?None.Get better.
>>76954463It isn't the worst, but you have to actively look for worse ones. Which is pretty impressive, honestly.
>>76960551This highlights one of the things that I deeply dislike about these nonsense 5e discussions; people who like 5e do not engage mechanically with the system. They just don't. These people bitch about "trolls hating on 5e just because its popular," but straight up, the only reason they like d&d is because its popular, not in like a group think way, but because it's the one they got first.Anyway, for them rolling the dice is usually a small part of the experience. Good friends, and a good gm can make any game great, that is true. But, for some reason, they have decided that because they have fun without engaging with the mechanics, you're wrong if you DO enjoy engaging with the mechanics. Claiming one system is better than the other (really, any system is better than d&d) is blasphemy, because the system doesn't matter because engaging with the system is WRONG. These are the same people who claim that "D&D is great for running [horror, mystery, scifi, etc] and then go on to explain how they either made up systems whole cloth or just straight up ignored the mechanical side of the game. The main selling point for these people seems to be that d&d is incredibly easy to ignore.
>>76960790Are you a complete fucking moron. Ignoring you shifting goal posts with downtime activities, you're ignoring the rules on pages 178-179 in the PH on using ability scores in social encounters where it's clear its not just a "one-and-done" deal, Chapter 8 in its entirety, and then Chapter 5 in the DMG, particularly pages 107-108, you should also check out page 242.. and 244 for social interaction... I mean FUCK.READTHEDAMNBOOK.Literally all of your questions are answered there, holy shit, I can't believe I wasted my time getting you the page numbers when only a complete fucking idiot would insist all of that isn't there when it's right fucking there. You're not even fucking trying.
>>76961004It forms a strong, inoffensive framework to build up from. Just like GURPS. If you know what you're doing, you can refluff and retool just about anything in 5e to fit any genre you want, and only a fucking mog would insist you need to use ALL the rules EXACTLY the way an imaginary default group that doesn't exist would use them.Quit trying to figure out why you should be mad, and just stop being mad.
>>76961004>Good friends, and a good gm can make any game greatThe problem with this assertion is that it implies that making a campaign great is costless. It's not, and if your group actually cares about mechanics, the cost of doing so drastically varies from game to game. And if they don't, why the fuck are you even bothering with rules to begin with? Just freeform.
>>76954029>>76954051>it has excellent and diverse combat options.>It's actually fantastic for low and no magic settings.This can definitely be the case, Talislanta showed it, however the problem is a lot of monsters are specifically made with high magic involved, if to be used against or to do themselves since a number of creatures innate spellcasting.
>>76961182I agree 100 percent. Unironically, the game most of the post CR crowd would much rather play is Dungeon World. But, Dungeon World is not The Worlds Most Famous Roleplaying Game.
>>76961004>the only reason they like d&d is because its popular,They like it because it's a crowd pleaser, which is different from it just being popular. They don't need to worry about appealing to one guy or the next's specific tastes, they know they can plop down 5e and everyone's going to have a good time.It's like tortilla chips. They're just salt and corn and they're fine on their own but you can get tired of them really quickly. But, you have them at a party because you can have a bunch of different salsas and dips and you can even do crazy big things like make seven-layered nachos or whatever.They're not the best food, but they're good party food.
>>76959557Alright I'll bite, just on the offchance it's not bait cause i'd play the heck out of it, or at the very least steal a bunch from it if the execution on everything else is terrible
>>76961170I'm not, just puzzled by the "no, no, the system does not matter, shut up, fuck you!" crowd. I like reading, learning and playing new games. I would much rather either play a system that does a thing I'm interested in doing, or encourages a style of play I find interesting, rather than either building something whole cloth or just dropping into Freeform.If you'd rather do that, that's fine. But that isn't"d&d being good at everything," that is you patching over the holes a system has in order to meet your needs.
>>76961288Nah, bud, they like it because it's their. There are other games that do what you're using it for far better, but d&d has the spot light, so d&d is played.
>>76961312Nta but off the top of my head, the way multiclassing works in Stars Without Number, or with a feat, anyone could pick up some psychic talent without gimping themselves.
>>76960175>d&d as of right now is a lukewarm compromise.by the designers own admission, and by design.and it's made them millions. just like how vanilla icecream and cheese pizza are the best sellers, especially at value sizes. they're only the most basic bitches' favorite, but everyone will tolerate them as far as needing to order a collective meal.
>>76960450>lowmagic 4ehave fun with that one gayboy.
>>76959896That's what happens when you tier your identity to something you show on a podcast and now MUST go and change the entire community to make them SEE
>>76954147Okay, so where are the options if you don't take battlemaster? Paladin and Ranger are also both spellcasters so they aren't available by the no magic rule. In fact, only Barbarian, Rogue and Fighter are available. But lets do a breakdown of archetypes for them from PHB+XGtE+TCE:>Barbarian>BerserkerAllowed>Totem WarriorBanned for Magic Spirit Journey>Ancestral GuardianBanned for ancestral magic>Storm HeraldBanned for primal magic>ZealotBanned for divine magic>The BeastBanned for magical transformation by a ghost>Wild MagicBanned for Wild Magic>Fighter>ChampionAllowed>BattlemasterAllowed>Eldritch KnightBanned for Magic>Arcane ArcherBanned for Magic>CavalierAllowed>SamuraiAllowed>Psi WarriorBanned for psi powers>Rune KnightBanned for magic runes>Rogue>ThiefBanned for being able to use magic items, otherwise allowed>AssassinAllowed>Arcane TricksterBanned for Magic>InquisitiveAllowed>MastermindBanned for Soul of Deceit but allowed otherwise>ScoutAllowed>SwashbucklerAllowed>PhantomBanned>SoulknifeBanned
>>76961325No one said the system "doesn't matter". What was said was "If you had a bad time, you can't blame the system." If you are at the point where you've read the rules and decided to play the game, you're either at the point where you know enough to handle any problems that might arise or you're an idiot.And, this isn't just about D&D. Any system you've committed yourself to enough to bring to a table means you should be able to handle it. It's like bringing a dog over, you either can control it and know how to keep it from biting and pissing on people or you're an idiot who shouldn't bring it over to begin with. And, it's not even like adapting a game to suit your needs requires any special tools or skills.And, every game has holes that need to be patched. No game designer knows you. No game designer designed a game with you or your group in mind. If you're playing any game as it is, right out of the box, you're really not going for the optimal experience. It's fine if you're testing it out for that au naturel first experience, but you really should be customizing games to fit your personal playstyle and developing the skills needed to do so. You thinking something like "D&D can't do X" actually just means "I can't do X with D&D because I'm not that good at running games." D&D isn't a hard system to tame, it's a pretty basic system, and if you're struggling with it, you should feel bad if anyone calls you an idiot for failing to control a puppy of a system.
>>76961393>and it's made them millionsBecause of Matt Mercer.Let's not forget that 5e was dying and had even less content published before someone did the job of their marketing team and made it sell among normies.
>>76961504>doesn't want to refluff anythingC'mon now. Are you really that level of simpleton?
>>76960621just tell him to fluff all the ki tricks as ninja gear and training. SUUUUPER easy compromise.Darkness? Smokebomb. Pass Without Trace? Fancy sneaking techniques and legit covering your tracks. Darkvision? Nightvision eyedrops, it's a lowmagic setting not no magic, surely increased eye dilation that can be achieved by alchemy, at least for the hour duration. Minor Illusion? Voice throwing, and that trick they do with tarps that are painted to look like scenery.Honestly, he's not even trying here
>>76961424No other edition even comes close to 4E in terms of handling low magic campaigns. Turns out that having a functioning, balanced replacement for magic item bonuses and martials that are varied without magic items and can hold their own without mommy cleric, daddy wizard, and/or DM fiat propping them up does wonders.
>>76961532Magic with a different coat of paint is still magic.
>>76961504So yeah, in conclusion, if you allowed all options you have one Barbarian, four Fighter and four Rogue choices. If you ran no-magic at all with no classes modifications and only had the core rulebook you would have one Barbarian, two Fighter and one Rogue.
>>76961424You can even do no-magic. Just remove all the magic/divine/psionic classes, replace all magic items with nonmagical alternate rewards like grandmaster training and stop before you reach Epic levels.No need for adaptations, rebalancing or lengthy houserules, just a very long banlist.
>>76961532Anon asked for 5e with no magic at all. This is what they asked for so I gave it to them. Thief specifically says for Use Magic Device that you have it since you have a working understanding of magic, magic doesn't exist so that class can't have that ability. Which is why I made a note of the archetypes that had only a single magic ability you could refluff or swap out if you'd like.
I had no issue running a low(er) magic setting in 5e. I restricted the classes to the martials, and allowed would-be magic users to pick eldritch knight or arcane trickster, then plug either the sorc or cleric spell lists in.
>>76961577>9 options that you can mix and match via multiclassing and use feats and further options to differentiate them even furtherHoly shit that system is huge and it keeps getting bigger.
>>76961507>>76961507>"If you had a bad time, you can't blame the system." If you are at the point where you've read the rules and decided to play the game, you're either at the point where you know enough to handle any problems that might arise or you're an idiot.See, this is a good point. You shouldn't be sticking square pegs in round holes. If you knew that you wanted square pegs, and then went out and bought a bunch of rounds holes, thats on you, fair. But then you go full retard with: >You thinking something like "D&D can't do X" actually just means "I can't do X with D&D because I'm not that good at running games."So, regardless of what you claim to be saying at the beginning of your post, we seem to be back to "the system doesn't matter, because you can just homebrew/patch it/ignore it." Again, being able to patch the holes in the system doesn't speak to tue quality of the system. I don't need to "tame" d&d to do something, because there are games out there that do the thing I want better than a patch job would
>>76961584>Banning literally 22/26 classes>No controller option>Needing to ban a lot of, if not the majority of, the races as well since they have magical abilities and/or origin like Eladrin, Deva and the like
>>76961132107 in DMG? A full page piece of goblin art tells me all I need to know about social encounters? Stop bullshitting, you've been outed for the fool you are.
All of you need help., except for anon. He's cool.
>>769615844e does have a system for Inherent bonuses from Dark Sun to account for a setting without plentiful magic items if I recall. >>76961699You could allow non-martial classes on a case by case. Barbarian for example doesn't do much magic despite being a primal class, and a case could similarly be made for Monk. Controller is also one of the least important roles, and Defenders are ultimately just melee controllers.The end result is still something tactically engaging and functional though.
>>76961652Ahh yes, cause being a Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian is a good option.If we mix archtypes and even think about triple multiclasseing we have 49 options. If we only do one or two classes it's 33 combos but the vast majority of these are just different mixes of Rogue/Fighter so are going to play relatively the same with a few minor changes here and there.
>>76961132178-179 of PHB only says "Here are some charisma based skills". Other than this, the entirety of social interactions in chapter 8 of PHB is a 3 inch column which condenses the DMG's rules on social interactions.
>>76961780I am anon and I think you need help.
>>76961687The system does matter. D&D is an easy system to work with, much easier than most (that aren't built from its chasis to begin with) It has very, very simple math that infinitely scales. It has thousands of resources and documents explaining its mechanics down to the tiniest details, all easily accessible and with thousands of people working tirelessly to build up and remix the system while comparing notes with each other.If you can't do something with D&D, you've really got to be a special kind of idiot.Sure, you can wax poetic about the "true quality of a system", but the bottom line is that if you want to do something in D&D, not only is it possible, it's probably already been done a thousand times before you even had the inkling to do it, and it's a fucking laugh to hear anyone admit that they're too stupid to figure out how to do whatever they want to do in a system as novice friendly as D&D.
>>76961786>Barbarian for example doesn't do much magicIf we eliminate their magic abilities it's a lot of their dailies and a chunk of their encounter powers gone.
>>76961757106 then, you dumb faggot. And look at the other pages that were listed, you piece of shit.Fuck you.
>>76954029D&D has been shit since Gygax got booted from TSR
>>76961884I looked over all of those pages. You're talking complete shit. Take the L.
>>76961854>If you can't do something with D&D,You keep saying this but when you get challenged on it, you point to trash third party products or you offer up garbage solutions that I wouldn't touch with an eleven foot pole.
>>76961862Other than Howl of Fury I'm struggling to think of any of their abilities that are overtly magical.
>>76961854So then we're back to "just refluff it!"Also, the math for 5e doesn't scale infinitely. That's why the hard cap on the proficiency bonus exists; once you get past like +10 on a d20, it becomes fucking pointless.
>>76961973Fuck you, you know goddamn well that every page listed shoots you and your dumb shit down, and now you're just hoping no one else checks.You're a genuine piece of shit, and you're going to keep moving goal posts regardless of what you read."Oh, there ARE rules on social encounters and downtime activities and dungeon exploration etc.? WELL THERE'S NOT ENOUGH OF THEM AND THERE WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH."Fuck you.
>>76962055It scales infinitely. If you have a +10 and the enemy has 20 AC, it's no different from a +20 and enemy with 30 AC.
>>76962023It's funny, because even though he's talking this big game, you can tell that, like most 5e players, he isnt engaged with the mechanics at all. Yeah, you can use d&d for fucking anything, when you spend most of the session ignoring the game part of the game.
>>76962064I openly encourage anyone who wants to check to find a PDF copy on the Trove or some other repository. You are and shall always be full of shit.
>>76962080Then you're back to 3.5, where you never feel any level of meaningful growth, because your just always throwing big numbers at bigger numbers. The thing you just described is WHY they baked bounded accuracy into 5e. You're trying to speak about the games mechanics, but its obvious that you barely even understand them.
>>76962064I also asked specifically for social interaction rules that don't boil down lengthy discussions into a single roll. Crying "But there are rules for a single roll" doesn't answer my question in any way. And there are zero dungeon exploration rules. I repeat, take the L.
>>76962064>>76962104I'll do you one better. Here's page 106. Nothing there concerns social encounters, downtime activities, or dungeon exploration. It is a completely meaningless section of the book to point to given the topic at hand.
>>76962126That's why you have the AC rise at the rate you feel comfortable with it rising. It keeps it from being a treadmill.+10 attack? Want it easier to hit? Make the AC rise to just 25 instead of 30. Harder? 35. This is basic shit man.
>>76962086I'm going to be perfectly honest, I think this guy is either a former developer trying to make both his game and a friend's game look better or he's a paid shill. Guy acts exactly like a certain former dev infamous for publically losing arguments and then thread locking + banning everyone involved, except because he can't do that here he doubles down on trolling, hurling abuse, and lowering the tone of the discussion.
>>76962204That's for downtime/time-tracking, you dumb mong. Can't you read?
>>76962133>here's all these rules for splitting up a social encounter into multiple rolls, including trying to determine their motivation, trying to pass a bluff, etc.>this must mean social encounters are just a single charisma roll!Fuck you.
>>76962232Can you? Travel is not downtime, and the page itself doesn't actually mention when to check for random encounters, instead pointing you to another section of the book for it. So even if the information in that other section is relevant to tracking time, you still pointed to a useless page.
>>76962232How does time tracking rules for wilderness exploration translate to dungeon exploration mechanics, you invalid? How long is a dungeon turn? How many actions can be performed in a given time period? How do certain actions affect a partys visibility and noise in a dungeon environment?All these are answered even in B/X, the most light version of the D&D ruleset ever conceived. Why are these rules absent from 5E?>>76962251>Yes, you're still making a single charisma roll, but it can be persuasion, intimidation, deception, or PerformanceCome on. Even the cashgrab Witcher game made by Pondsmith's son has rules for social combat.
>>76961263also you know, Adam Koebel just got cancelled into oblivion for magical realming rape on stream on a rape victim with her (and everyone else at the table. and in chat. it's a trainwreck) clearly uncomfortable about what's going on, after years of preaching that X-card-esque trigger warnings and consent at the table bullshit.he's never working in the industry again without a pseudonym.
>>76962303You're splitting a social encounter into multiple rolls. Do you not understand that?And the Witcher game's social combat rules suck.
>>76962210It is basic math. It isn't good game design. Again, you're acting like you know what your talking about, but this is embarassing.
>>76961389anybody can take a level of wizard in 5e too, that's literally the dame thing.
>>76961504why is Phantom rogue allowed but ancestral guardian barb isn't? it's literally the exact same thing.
>>76961504what about battlerager? is being a Dwarf too magic for him?
>>76962338You are deliberately misinterpreting. You are arguing that there are many methods by which you can resolve a social encounter, but at the end of the day you are making a single roll to determine the results. You'd be pissed if combat was resolved in a single die roll and your DM was crying "But there are many rolls you can make! You can roll Strength (Athletics), or Dexterity (Acrobatics)".Most other systems offer at least a basic combat-like system for social encounters.I doubt you've even read the Witcher's social combat rules, but they absolutely beat D&D.
>>76961504what about the spell-less ranger UA?
>>76962348No, thats not how multiclassing works in Stars Without Number, and, in general, multiclassing in d&d is a shit option.
>>76961504you forgot banneret/PDK.
>>76954029You know, now that I think about it, you're pretty much completely wrong. Just axe most of the utility spells and cantrips and the like. Magic doesn't really start getting overly powerful in 5e until you hit around level 15. Most of the spells before then are the kind of things you'd see sorcerers throwing at Conan.
>>76962232>>76962289And just to be clear>Let your players determine the marching order>Wilderness journeys typically feature a combination of planned encounters and random encounters. >See Chapter 3 for guidelines on creating your own random encounter tables and when to check for random encounters.>A good way to keep wilderness encounters from becoming stale is to make sure they don't all start and end the same way.Nothing here is about time-tracking. Just because the header says Hour-by-Hour does not automatically mean it has the rules you were hoping it does. The section simply gives examples of more detailed aspects of travel relative to the other half of the page, which is solely devoted to simply describing it in a narrative fashion.And just to be even more clear, here's the section from Chapter 3 on when to check for encounters. Which simply says that the DM should decide, roll every hour, roll every 4-8 hours, or roll twice per day. Which still doesn't tell us anything about tracking time or what sorts of activities take up what amount of time. It simply suggests intervals for when you should roll on the table. Which means page 106 is doubly worthless, because not only does it not contain any rules being discussed, but the section it directs you towards also doesn't have the rules being asked for.
>>76962509Conan never had a 20' radius fireball thrown at him. And in Appendix N literature a wizard might just about get one spell off before their head is sent rolling.
>>76962543It's almost like the guy who's been telling everyone to read the books for 8 hours hasn't actually read the books.
>>76962573I know, I just wanted to make it perfectly clear for anyone else witnessing this back and forth who didn't want to look it up themselves.
>>76960491Not sure. 4e has a helluva lot of innate magic packed into even martial powers. If you don't count that as a thing, only considering casted magic then yeah you could easily run an all martial or primal party of conans and john carters.
>>76960613>you can't blame the recipeYou absolutely fucking can. If a recipe is telling me to incorporate dogshit into my spaghetti carbonara that's a shit fucking recipe even if I can ignore and rework the shitty parts. This applies even more if i've paid for the damn thing specifically so someone else can have put in the time and effort to make sure its not fucked up.also>FOOD ANALOGY
>>76961504drunk master and kensei monk aren't magical in any way until way deep into levels. you could probably just make it cap at level 12 (no tongue of sun and moon or above) and be just fine.open hand, capping at 5 or 10 depending on whether you consider wholeness of body magical or like fighter's Second Wind, would probably also be acceptable.
>>76962434>at the end of the day you are making a single roll to determine the results.That's not what happens, you complete fucking tool.Social "combat" in D&D is adaptable and flexible, and works in the fashion where the players make multiple checks or even none at all. I really am having a hard time understanding how fucking stupid you need to be to keep repeating a braindead mantra of "single roll to determine the results" like you think that making a high charisma roll will make someone tell you everything they know and obey you like you've just mindraped them.>Most other systems offer at least a basic combat-like system for social encounters.And those suck. The more mechanics involved in a "social encounter", the more the players are taken out of the scene. D&D opts for simple mechanics that try to be minor intrusions at best, but can be scaled up depending on how much the group enjoys rolling to turn the encounter into a series of checks, guesses, deductions, gambles, and so on and so forth.I stand by my earlier statement of fuck you. You might genuinely be retarded.
>>76954051Okay, so this is hilarious, but it's also important to know WHY it's wrong too, because it is true that 5e has a lot of different combat options across different classes and there are a decent number of ways to play martials in terms of positioning and tactics, especially when you take Feats into account. Fighters play differently from Monks who play differently from Barbarians who play different Rogues, and each can play differently within the class due to archetypes (assuming you're using splat books). This can be supported further by different feats and clever use of equipment.BUT, on the flip-side, the entire balance of the game depends on mid-to-high magic. Mobs and action economy is supposed to be balanced by AOE attacks. Rising AC values, HPs, and damage resistances are dependent on PCs having stat buffing magic items. Hell, even if you stick to exclusively high CR monsters without an action economy advantage (who all tend to be pretty magical themselves), the system is built for pretty much constant magical healing. Of course there are ways around this: non-magical means of AOE, rejiggering monsters so that PCs don't get buttfucked by resistances, and carefully managing and measuring encounters. But that's a whole lot of work to the point it would be much easier to just use a different system. I mean, you can do it, and the DM that does it well will have a great campaign to play it, but you really don't want to, because it sucks and there are better systems to do it in.
>>76961531true, but since making it streamlined enough that you COULD stream it for an audience that's never once played and they can still follow along was more or less a goal of the system's design as well, I'd say that Mercer was an eventuality, not a fluke. If he hadn't someone else would have filled that role.
>>76961312SotDL paths work alright for it. A pure caster will definitely have more spells than someone who mixes but the dip can still get really good spells.
>>76962543>Nothing here is about time-tracking. Are you actually, genuinely retarded. I'm not even sure if you're looking at the same pages you're posting.Can you honestly not read? Those pages give an overview of how to handle travel time, and whether you'd want to do it just as a brief overview or going into the nitty-gritty. What were you looking for, the table of how long it takes to travel from location to location? Because that's on 242, you asslicking shit stick.
>>76962655Why are you using a recipe that includes dogshit and blaming the recipe.
>>76962771Because when I buy a book of recipes i cannot look through every single recipe before buying it without it being considered theft or piracy. A book of recipes still shouldn't have fucking dogshit in it at all. I paid for it to explicitly not have dogshit, why the fuck should I have to work around it having dogshit when I FUCKING PAID MONEY TO A COMPANY SO IT WOULDN'T HAVE DOGSHITStop fucking making excuses for lazy and shitty game devs just because people can homebrew. A functional system shouldn't fucking need homebrew to fix core fucking flaws like have existed in every fucking edition of D&D with WotC
>>76962669"Make it up as you go" does not a mechanic make. If the goal of D&D was to be as unobtrusive as possible then 5E would be the size of an index card and say "just make shit up, roll a d20 when you aren't sure." But you've spent 8.5 hours, half of your waking day, frothing at the mouth shilling for "the world's most popular roleplaying game", insisting that it is a comprehensive ruleset. This is patently false, and it's already been shown upthread that you haven't actually read the books you're prescribing to others.A social encounter system, no matter how much it sucks, is still a better attempt at implementing such a system than the most profitable RPG company in the world throwing hot shit in your face and telling you to work it out.Try not to have an aneurysm from your insurmountable and impotent rage.
>>76954051you're correct, ONLY if you meant stripped of all player available magic.trying to run anything using published materials and you're not allowed to use spells, or anything otherwise magical/psionic/whatever, you're gonna be using a lot of fucking warlord/champions and paleofauna, because that's the only humanoids/beasts with a CR that high.
>>76954101Any WotC D&D + Core only is trash, because D&D core always carries 50 years of autism in itself, refusing to let go. 3.5 is genuinely the best WotC D&D version simply because you can ditch the stupidity that is D&D Core and still be able to play anything.
>>76962751The pages give an overview of how to handle travel. That is not the same thing as time-tracking. Doubly so because the 'nitty-gritty' option doesn't go into any real detail, it simply points out that you can forage and have random encounters. It's a bit of a moot point though, because the question of time-tracking has never been about overland travel.>>76960410>Where are the rules on dungeon exploration: tracking time, exploration protocol, dungeon roles etc?So that's yet another way page 106 is pointless to bring up in this context.
>>76962845>"Make it up as you go" does not a mechanic make.No one said that. A social system being flexible and adaptable doesn't mean you make it up as you go, it means you take the core mechanics and adapt them to the situations as they present themselves.Look. I know you're TRYING to be stupid here, but holy shit your current persona doesn't even understand the first thing about actual roleplaying games. It's genuinely sad that you think you could argue from that perspective and not come off as a complete and total idiot, both in regards to your troll persona and you for thinking you didn't go several shades too stupid.It's not even an argument anymore. It's you showing that you've never actually played a game before and now it's too late for you to pretend otherwise.Take my advice. Get off this board, stop wasting your life shitposting about things you don't know the first thing about, go find a group, and realize how fucking stupid you are right now.I'm not the guy who's going to help you with that. You've got to do it for yourself.Peace.
>>7696294461 unique posters and you're the only one defending your shitty viewpoint. Take the hint. Take time off of 4chan and interact with normal people; it might do you good.
>>76962983No, he's right.
>>76962983He already has an answer ready for you bro:>>76955932This is your brain on DnD
>>76962983What? Are you the OP, still buttmad everyone is treating your D&D hate as a joke?
>>76962944>social system being flexible and adaptableWhat fucking social system?>person is friendly, not friendly, or hostile>roll d20 once to change moodIt doesn't even cover how fucking often you can attempt a roll, let alone conversation and shit.Fucking 4e skill challenges were better for social situations because at least there is a series of them and more than the party face can actually do something other than ruin the whole attempt.
>>76962983No one's fooled, OP.
>>76962944If your only core mechanic is to roll a skill check, then you don't have much to adapt. A flexible system for social challenges would be one that does present a variety of tools that can be further adapted.
>>76963037>>76963057>>76963079Whoa, all the way up to 65, and all these posts are pointing out how dumb OP is.
>>76962553There's been telekinetic battery, transfiguration of men into animals, illusions large enough to hide armies, lightning bolts, and a whole shit ton of summoned demons in Conan stories. Lots of general necromancy too, from conjuring the long dead as spirits to animating undead warriors. A fireball wouldn't really have been out of place, though you are right, the average sorcerer will usually only have one chance to sling something like that.
>>76962869So basically a gladiators-on-dinosaurs fighting arena. Huh.
>>76962837>A system should be able to do everything I could ever want it to do in a perfect and clear way without effort on my part.D&D literally can't be expected to do that what with the kind of game it is. Go get FATE or GURPS if you want a system to do anything, but even that requires a lot of finagling and adjustment to make right. D&D was made and balanced with mid-high magic settings in mind, because that's the majority of D&D settings. If you want a low-no magic setting, the entire balance and structure of the game would need to change. That's a problem of design SCOPE, not the design itself, and the scope has always been focused on settings where magic is prolific. If it really upsets you that much, have you considered not playing D&D?
>>76954049>pathfinder >40k settingI wanted to play a psycher and ended up a sorcerer with a 1/day burning hands and no other spells
>>76963569Don't you fucking put words in my mouth you cum eating nigger. A game shouldn't have to have its core fucking mechanics reworked and homebrewed. WotC d&d can't even do its intended goal correctly out the box because it has major fucking balance issues inherent in the design of classes and equipment. I have never said nor want for people to try and make political murder-mystery games using D&D because that's fucking retarded but you can't even play dungeon diving murderhobos without horrific balance and a complete lack of codified rules spitting in your face.
>>76954175Sounds like fun, Or utter shit.
>>76954249Every roleplaying game is d&d.
>>76954269Sephiroth with the cum chalice is a image I didn’t know I needed
>>76955932>I'm pretty sure it's just three anti-D&D trolls.>At most.The best part is that you actually mean it.
>>76954367Uggg, that takes out all bit three classes and most subclasses. In core only you have Berserker Barbarian, Champion Fighter, and Thief Rogue. It’s like taking the support columns out of the system and expecting it to stand on its own
>>76963707Oh please, 5e isn't that bad. Yeah there's some balance problems (looking at Rangers), and a bunch of dumb equipment traps, but it's not the same Caster superiority game 3.5 was. Perfectly workable for murderhobo dungeon crawlers. All the optional rules are more on the ends of how different people like to play the game differently. Hard, inescapable rules for a system as broad as D&D is a quick recipe for rules laywering faggots too. Like I get it's not perfect, but don't get ahead of yourself. It's not unplayable by any means.
>>76963854You would also have Battlemaster and Assassin in core, although if we're talking options that players might want to pick then you only have Battlemaster and Thief
>>76961951D&D has been shit since Gygax booted Arneson.
>>76961854>D&D is an easy system to work with, much easier than mosSo you never played anything else than D&D?
>>76959916It shows that you're in the habit of using vernacular that won't get you cancelled by your fellow retarded SJW scumsuckers, you nigger.
>>76954049>No magic campaign, with "magic coming back later"What's the problem with that?
>>76963854Totem Warrior can be fluffed non-magically. Fighter has Battlemaster, Rogue has Assassin, and Monk can be played with the Open Palm tradition at least. You could even fluff the Shadow Monk with mundane items that create the same effect as the spells they get. Then you get into splatbooks and your options expand quite a bit. There are nonmagic options for Ranger and Paladin too on UA I think though that's a bit more of a push. Doesn't seem like such a bad spread if you know what you're doing though.
>>769620235e doesn't work well for modern non-magic stuffin doesn't work well for political fantasyit works great for heroic fantasy sword & sorcerery Saturday morning cartoon stories and that's what I like to do. are there other good systems? absolutely, but my group doesn't play them as much because our time is limited and we like spending time with the artificer based off of speed racer or the caveman cavalier.>why not play Pathfinder?we don't like the specificity of pathfinder, and at least I've found it detracts from the possibilities of what a character can do when you need to take a specific option to do a specific thing. This works fine for casters, as it was always intended to limit them this way, but when you apply it to martials it just leaves a sour taste in the mouth. Maybe that's just me, I'm sure lots disagree, and that's fine. I just like playing with my friends and my friends like 5e.
>>76964076For someone who likes exactly that, 5E turned me off because it was absolutely horrible at it.
>>76954051>it has excellent and diverse combat optionslike what? By default a dude with a sword just has attack, dodge, grapple, shove, disengage, and dash. Most of the time people will just select "attack"
>>76966981There's like a dozen more "default" moves. Some are detailed in the DMG (like disarm/trip/overrun/mark/tumble/feint/etc.), some are snuck into places like movement (drop prone/rise up/etc.), some involve interaction with the environment (hide, take cover, use item, climb, etc,) or other characters (help, take cover/climb/etc.), and some involve manipulating the action economy (attacking off-hand by throwing a punch, etc.).And, then when you get into things like weapon/feat options and then class abilities, there's really no shortage of potential actions. While attacking is generally a good option, there's a fair number of modifiers from feats like Great Weapon Master that make even just attacking from round to round a tactical decision, and certain rule interactions involving the action economy make choices like whether to use your reaction to take an attack of opportunity or to reserve it for a defensive option quite an important consideraton.It's really more complex than it needs to be, especially if you weren't playing entirely without magic, which is why some of these rules are kept in the DMG. But, even outside of the DMG there's still more options than you were willing to admit there was, or you were simply ignorant to.
>>76967251The fact that you list climbing, twice, as an example of a combat option is really all that needs to be said.
>>769540295e has been build from the ground up to take low-to-medium magic. The system actually assumes you won't have access to permanently magical weapons (and as such has a variety of ways to get 'counts as magical' on your stuff). If you mean "no magic users" then that fucks a lot of things up, but PCs are exceptional heroes in the game, if there are wizards or sorcerers in your setting it would be unusual for PCs to be not able to be them.Someone who decides low magic means that the PCs don't get magic is being intentionally retarded. A no-magic setting needs tweaks and if you nerf class spell-casting abilities you're being doubly retarded, but that's not the fault of the system, it's the fault of the self-fellating mongoloid pretending to be a GM.
>>76967518So here's the issue, high magic doesn't come from the power of spellcasting in combat, but the power of spellcasting day-to-day. Even if they're rare, small practical magics like "create food and drink" or healing magic or even prestidigitation, it makes no sense for it not to be used everywhere all the time. In a low-magic setting, you have to curb the "convenience" magics first and foremost which takes a bit of work and consideration on what magic you're not going to let your players use.
>>76967251>Some are detailed in the DMG (like disarm/trip/overrun/mark/tumble/feint/etc.)You really did just deadass label these as default moves. The shit that A) You can only get from a feat or a certain subclass B) you can only use a certain amount of times per rest (once if you get the feat) andC) you can only learn 2 of these moves from a feat, or more if you go battlemaster subclass.Of course that's the stuff just in the player's handbook, and there is the optional stuff in the dungeon master's guide. However it's not like these are easy to find for a player. Three of the options listed are just ways to get past a creature, mark is just... boring, you make a melee attack, and have advantage on opportunity attacks against one thing. That's not a special move, that's just making opportunity attacks stronger. Only good ones here are disarm and climbing on creatures.To make it doubly clear, the shit you listed here is optional and hidden, or need heavy investment to use.Most of the other shit you listed is movement, IE getting close to do your basic attack action.
>>76962210This is “clicker heroes” levels of game design. There is no way to honestly convey the world as a DM if the AC on everything rises arbitrarily with player power. You make me sick.