>racial ability bonuses Who thought this was a good idea? All this does is limit class and race combinations.
>>76941868Only if you actively choose to only play optimal combinations
>>76941917>It's a design coming from last century when it was still okay to be racistYou have to go back
>>76942219It literally does, some class and races combinations have advantages over others.
>>76941868It really doesn't
>>76942238So? Being born in high altitude areas gives you a natural resistance to low oxygen environments. Not all Bolivians and Nepalese are alpinists
>>76942253It really does retard
>>76942282>So? Being born in high altitude areas gives you a natural resistance to low oxygen environments. Not all Bolivians and Nepalese are alpinistsAre you smoking crack?
>>76942238>>76942287Not everyone's a powershitter
>>76942313>powershitterHas no relevance to the conversation, racial bonuses objectively and mathematically limit class and race options.
>>76941868This is true a good character creation system would be me that places more on the background of the character you want to make as opposed to arbitrary bonuses or negatives
>>76941868NOOOOOOO! EVERYONE MUST BE THE SAAAME!!! I WANT MY KITSUNE-PIXIE GIRL (MALE) TO BE AS GOOD AT POLEARMS AS THE ORK BARBARIAN!!!
>>76942410>be one*Why Grammarly why
>>76942386No it fucking doesn't. Numbers are a minimal, almost inconsequential part of roleplaying.This is exactly why people here hate DnDogshit.
>>76942413Not what I said at all, try again.
>>76942456>hurr durrWhy is there even combat then? Go play a political game if you want all roleplaying
>>76942471Sure is, pal.
>>76942493Nope, learn to read
>>76942511Sure did, that's what you've typed.
>>76942537Nah, go back to preschool.
>>76942193>>It's a design coming from last centurywell, at least admit this much
>>76942600Sweetie, 5e was designed this century.
Gygax and co wanted to give players a reason to play humans, since they didn't get any racial ability penalties like other races
>>76941868>All this does is limit class and race combinations.That is the point. If all combinations equally good why bother making people pick a combination at all?
>>76942653>why bother making people pick a combination at all?Roleplaying obviously
>>76941868>All this does is limit class and race combinations.In bad systems who really on racial bonuses to be large aspects of a characters "build". In other systems that do not rely on this but only use the bonuses as flavor and to add minor but easily remedied bonuses and penalties, there is no such problem and these make the game better and more interesting.Basically, stop arguing about a 5e problem as if its universal you shitty little asswipe.
>>76942622but copies mechanics that were in DnD since ADnD, including race stat modifiersalso, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be spelled sweatie
>>76942697>Basically, stop arguing about a 5e problem as if its universal you shitty little asswipe.Never did, you’re just delusional.
>>76942690Why bother making people pick a mechanical combination at all, if you prefer
>>76942706They still decided to design it that way, is art a 0th century idea?
>>76941868isnt it more immersive to have to try extra hard at something you're not naturally good at?
>>76942741I don’t, I allow my players to have any starting bonus. I give them three points to allocate to any ability.
>>76942770If you want to do that you could just design your character with different starting bonuses.
Because aeons ago it seemed like a good idea when we were first turning tolkien-esque roleplay into roleplaying games. Orcs fight a certain way that elves don't, dwarves are sturdy in a way that humans aren't, and thus you represent these things with different stats and other traits. Now that we're far beyond that stage of infancy of roleplay and into significantly more advanced concepts, yes, it's a bit inane in hindsight and actively damages potential for character creation, but the roots didn't think into the future when they were planted.
>>76942734It is entirely a 5e problem and everyone fucking knows it, because the only system currently being argued about in this regard in the zeitgeist of the hobby is fucking 5e. Stop being a disingenuous little fagotron retard and spell out what you actually mean, you smoothbrained fuckwit.
>>76942815>It is entirely a 5e problem and everyone fucking knows it, because the only system currently being argued about in this regard in the zeitgeist of the hobby is fucking 5e. Stop being a disingenuous little fagotron retard and spell out what you actually mean, you smoothbrained fuckwit.Your meds, take them. I never said that it wasn’t a 5e problem. In fact I implied it by saying “who thought this is a good idea” which suggests it’s a design issue.
>>76941868>All this does is limit class and race combinations.Can you explain this to me? I don't see how it limits you.
>>76942238just like people born tall have an advantage over short people in basketball? i mean, why play to your strengths when you should just be universally good at anything, and have no shortcomings at all.
>>76943005Ok imagine you could have a wizard with 16 INT or 18 INT. Why would you ever have 16 INT!!!!
>>76942876PF2e uses both ability penalties and bonuses on all of their "races". The system doesn't have this particular problem that 5e does in regard to picking races, namely that the bonuses you receive are an outsized contributor to your character's power for a large part of their career. This is because the system adds a ton of bonuses to your character over their levels and the way the math is done keeps the bonuses contributions reasonable all the way up to level 20. Wizard Orcs work well in PF2, Halfling barbarians are more than viable, and so many weird and wonderful combinations not just function passably, but excel at what they do.This is entirely a 5e problem, almost exclusive to that system due to its awful math and poor design based around bounded accuracy.
>>76943028And this reduces your choices how exactly?
>>76943014Real life is not character creation, you can make yourself tall or short in character creation. >>76943005Ok I’ll explain itBiggah numbahs for stats you class use. Ooga booga.
>>76943053You’re more likely to choose a race that has an int bonus.
>>76943056Yeah, so it doesn't limit you then? Unless you're telling me that there are races that can't play certain classes because there is a stat requirement I'm not seeing how this limits your choice in race/class combo.>>76943075But are you limited to choosing the one with the higher bonus?
>>76942471but that is what you want, just not specifically for your kitsune-pixie girl (male), who is probably a master skin-flutist. but the underlying argument that you want, is for any race/class combo to be just as good as any other. if they are not, then by default some must be better, and some must be worse.
>>76943053Because I refuse to play anything but the most optimal combination and that's the games fault and everyone should be equally capable of everything
>>76943084>Yeah, so it doesn't limit you then?Do you know what the definition of limit is? It reduces your effectiveness.>>76943087No. you’re size still limits the weapons you can use, but not your class. Yes, you can be a pixie fighter. You can slash people’s wrists and stab their eyes.You’re too retarded to get it.
>>76943104There are different types of players. When designing a game you need to think about that. What does racial bonuses do for role playing? And what does it do for power gaming? It’s a net negative.
>>76943124>Do you know what the definition of limit is? It reduces your effectiveness.Limit certainly can mean that, but that's not the context of the OP.>All this does is limit class and race combinations.It does not reduce the amount of combinations.
>>76942805so you are arguing that orcs don't fight different from elves, and that dwarves are not more sturdy than humans. in essence, you believe or want for all the fantasy races/species to be the same with a different color palette.
>>76943154>Limit certainly can mean that, but that's not the context of the OP.>>All this does is limit class and race combinations.>It does not reduce the amount of combinations.I’m literally the OP, the fuck are you talking about? Limit can mean two different things in that sentence, you discern it with context clues. Obviously it doesn’t limit the amount of classes.
>>76943028well, apparently for the purpose of roleplaying. although powergamers and roll players could not abide it. so take from that what you will.also the difference between 16 and 18 is 1 point, or a 5% chance on any given roll. even within the bounded accuracy of 5e, that is negligibly small.
>>76943172To be fair, as much as I think OP has a shit take on this stats aren't the only way to represent that. I'd argue they aren't even the best way either. You can have different base Health values, and different talents or traits. While stat mods are good for representing averages across a species PCs are rarely the average example of a member of their race. Decoupling stats from race for character creation doesn't mean its decoupled entirely. Creature statblocks can still display those differences. >>76943226Then be more specific. What you put in the OP is categorically untrue. What you mean is that it limits the amount of optimal combination. That is an entirely different topic of conversation.
>>76943145Depends. Pure numerical bonuses, maybe. But most games also include racial abilities and those generally improve games. Because the question ultimately is this: is a wizard with 16 INT functional? The answer is yes. It's not an 18, but it is totally servicable. Expanding on that: +2/-2 to stats doesn't render any classes actually unplayable simply because they don't create that much disparity in the first place. If it was something like you take -8 to INT, then yeah you'd be fucked.So the only way a racial attribute penalty limits you is if you are a turbo autist who refuses to do anything that isn't the most optimal, in which case there are greater problems with that mindset then with bonuses. Now all that said racial ability modifiers aren't particularly interesting and I prefer games that give more racial abilities instead.
>>76942307No, he just destroyed your argument.Some people are inherently better at certain things than others, get over it. If you want to be a Gnome Warrior, live the dream, but it's retarded to expect that you would seriously be as strong as an Orc when you're playing a midget.
>>76943172Adventures and heroes aren’t normal people though, you can have all of the things you mentioned and still have customizable bonuses. It’s character creation not character control. You’re telling me that there’s not a dwarf who’s naturally smarter, or more dexterous? You’re telling me there’s not an elf out there with naturally bigger muscles?
>>76942413If you weren't a complete fucking moron you would just roleplay differences between races instead of having the game hold your hand and force you to do it. Nobody has the balls to just play an orc wizard with purposefully mediocre intelligence because they can't stand the idea of gimping themselves for roleplaying purposes, they want the game to actually give them the penalty.
>>76943270>Some people are inherently better at certain things than others, get over it.Which you sort out in character creation, rpgs are not real life. Go outside you cretin.
>>76943056>Real life is not character creation, you can make yourself tall or short in character creation. that is a different argument. your trying to make the argument that "i choose to be a short person, but also get to be as good as a tall person at basketball". your choices are not limited, unless you are incapable of choosing something that isn't the optimal choice. but then, that is a you problem, not a game problem.
>>76943290I think plenty of people would nerf themselves. I see meme characters all the time with purposely bad stats. You should play with some more people anon.
>>76943272 >>76943306I agree that there should be outliers, which is why I'm okay with the Tasha rules on this. It makes sense since the players are playing as extraordinary people, not generic examples of their race.That being said, every stage you remove yourself from normalcy is another inch closer to your character being a nonsensical Mary Sue clusterfuck. Playing a Goliath Rogue is just inherently stupid, for example. Possible, maybe, but it's a real fucking stretch and absolutely shits on the believability of your setting. I get that these settings are magical and fantastical by nature, but unless its SO magical and fantastical that material reality literally does not matter at all, then a Goliath rogue seems pretty retarded.
>>76943330>that is a different argument. your trying to make the argument that "i choose to be a short person, but also get to be as good as a tall person at basketball".You can be though, you can focus on stealing and passing, and you can even do long shots. Also, that’s not my argument.
>>76941868It's literally racist and should be done away with.It's 2021, time to leave bad ideas and bad history behind.
>>76941868>>76941917I feel bad bumping the shitty leftist bait that is destroying the board, but at some point reality needs to intrude on your worldview. There are biological differences between species, human subspecies and sexes. No amount of denialism, theft or propaganda will change this.
>>76942456Osr os the source
>>76943337This, I was once in a pathfinder living world notorious for bullying new players into either powergaming or leaving. There was this one dude that didn't give a shit. He played a vigilante magical girl that was mechanically a commoner with a shortbow. I had the most amount of fun with that guy out of everyone else in the forum
>>76943376>leftist baitThis is rightoid outrage farming. They WANT to be angry.
>>76943400>This is rightoid outrage farming. They WANT to be angry.Aka bait
>>76943337Bro, they're meme characters BECAUSE they're purposefully nerfing themselves. It's contrarian bullshit. If you take away the mechanical incentive you remove the whole stupid decision process of whether or not you want your character to be really good or really bad on purpose.
>>76942785Ou tasha, you spoil us!
>>76943435Wut? They’re bad, because they are. People purposely make their characters bad to roleplay or meme. Doing this with customization or the race you choose is the same thing.
>>76941868Nice bait, lefty. You will never pass, better steer clear of the mirror.
>>76943272again, this is a different argument. i believe in the idea that pcs are outliers within their own race, as well as within the wider context of the game world. but, the topic is that there is mechanical limitation of race-class combos. and there isn't. there is only a limit on the optimal combos, and that by default that means there are sub optimal combos. and there are very few non-viable combos. the biggest stat loss is only 2 points from optimal, which is a 1 point bonus, or 5%. it isn't meaningful mechanically, it isn't really limited. it is fully functional. and ffs, the game hands out attribute points like candy. now go back to 2e, and your stats did limit your class choices, hard. you might qualify for 2 or 3 classes if you rolled well, and none if you rolled poorly. >>76943124yes you can be a pixie fighter. but you can't be equal to grug the orc barbarian when it comes to dishing out the hurt. and sure slash the wrists and stab the eyes, but that is called shots (with appropriate penalties)/narrative advantage over other players. equitable and equal do not mean the same thing.you are the only retard here, and your arguments are garbage.
>>76943519I’m not a lefty though
>>76943519>>76943376Need more (you)s already, he who licks tranies assholes ?
>>76943537>the topic is that there is mechanical limitation of race-class combos. and there isn't. there is only a limit on the optimal combos,Ok sure, there’s a limit to optimal combos.
>>76941868Have classes utilise secondary stats in a meaningful way, give races /some/ versatility in which stats they get bonuses to, and give each race something unique but universally useful.You won't cover /all/ your bases, but you'll see a lot more variation than just Dwarf Fighter Elf Ranger Halfling Rogue HalfOrc Barbarian.
>>76941868Alright smartass, tell me how else to differentiate the races?
>>76942785>whole THREE pointsgetting 19 in your primary ability from the start sounds nice, at least until you realize it's the same bonus as 18
>>76943605Different starting health values, talents, traits, etc etc etc
>>76943537>yes you can be a pixie fighter. but you can't be equal to grug the orc barbarian when it comes to dishing out the hurt. Never said you could be, I said you should able to customize your ability bonuses. Why do retards thinks bonus customization = you can do whatever another race can do? Please stop and try reading. You are the retard sir, stop assuming things.
>>76943605How about you actually try roleplaying for once? Also Npcs
>>76943613>a whole three points Yes, that’s the total bonus most races get. You can choose to invest for 4th level or add a point to a different ability.
>>76943617So racial bonuses then?
>>76943617That's exactly what different ability bonuses are though. If ability bonuses were the same, then you would be here having this same conversation about hp pools or other talents and traits. If there are any differences at all there is going to be an optimal combination.
>>76943662Yes. The OP is complaining specifically about ability score bonuses. Everything but those is how you meaningfully differentiate races otherwise.
>>76943365>You can be though> that’s not my argument.it seems to be. it was the very first part of your retort.> you can focus on stealing and passingthat is not racial, that is class or maybe background. you are making bad arguments, that do not follow from your premise nor lead to your conclusion.
>>76943519the storm will never come
>>76943698>it seems to be. it was the very first part of your retort.>> you can focus on stealing and passingNow you are misquoting me, I specifically said that wasn’t part of my argument. It’s just a logical rebuttal >>you can focus on stealing and passing>that is not racial,Height in basketball isn’t racial either you dimwit.Customizable ability scores DOES NOT mean you can do the same things as other races, and I never said that it did! It simply means you can always play a good class/race combo.
>>76943619because your argument for customized ability scores means a pixie fighter can have the same stats as an orc fighter, making them mechanically identical. ergo, a pixie can do whatever an orc can do. stop being retarded. and start thinking about what your assertion means, i don't have to assume what you say, you said it plain. you, however, have no idea what you said.
>>76943789>because your argument for customized ability scores means a pixie fighter can have the same stats as an orc fighter, making them mechanically identical. ergo, a pixie can do whatever an orc can do. stop being retardedNo there are literal rules about using oversized weapons you fucking retard. Leave the thread in shame, you expect to argue about rule changes when you don’t even know the rules?
>>76941868>race should just be cosmetic>being in a wheelchair should not effect mobility>5'11 is a valid height for avoiding a charisma penaltyIt's one thing to want escapist, unrealistic fantasy but these are Games and Games have Rules. Rules must be Consistent. If you want a No Rules game, join a Discord server and just scream at each other until someone "wins"
>>76943768>Customizable ability scores DOES NOT mean you can do the same things as other races, and I never said that it did! It simply means you can always play a good class/race combo.What does a good orc barbarian and a good human barbarian look like in this case? What difference comes?
>>76943840D&D can be won?
>>76943840Cringe take, I never said 2/3 of the things you listed. >games have rules >implying that customizable character creation isn’t a rule Just.. lol
>>76943768>Height in basketball isn’t racial either you dimwit.all those guys training to be taller. i hope at this point your just pretending to be retarded.>Customizable ability scores DOES NOT mean you can do the same things as other races, it means a smarter than average dwarf (customized for int) is just as good as an elf (natural int bonus) when it comes to being a wizard. it sounds exactly like you are saying you can do the same things as other races. if there are no limits, then it is all the same.
>>76943842>What does a good orc barbarian and a good human barbarian look like in this case? What difference comes?The orc is stronger of course, just means he’s more skilled.
>>76943889Ok so it's fine for the Orc to naturally be stronger?
>>76943887>all those guys training to be taller.Never said that brainlet, race affects the likelihood of you being tall, but it’s not a racial rule. You can select tall guys from any race, just like you could select a smart orc if you looked.>it means a smarter than average dwarf (customized for int) is just as good as an elf (natural int bonus) when it comes to being a wizard. it sounds exactly like you are saying you can do the same things as other races.Specifically at being a wizard, yes why not? Effortlessly walking over deep snow? No of course not. You have lost, begone.
>>76943915Yes, that just means he made himself naturally stronger in character creation. Why should literal superhumans have to follow racial rules? My 20th level barbarian should be weaker than your average orc?
>>76943959>Why should literal superhumans have to follow racial rules? My 20th level barbarian should be weaker than your average orc?Your literal superhumans have to follow every other rule. But more to the point: your 20th level barbarian is probably stronger than an average orc. However, a 20th level Orc barbarian is probably stronger than your non-Orc barbarian. It is true that your person could be exceptionally strong or an Orc exceptionally weak, but these would obviously be exceptions. >>76943935>Never said that brainlet, race affects the likelihood of you being tall, but it’s not a racial ruleIt is, or rather it is an environmental rule since humans are all one species. You can see in the attached that average height not only varies based on region, it also has changed over time. Thus populations in some parts of the world or predisposed to being taller or shorter
>>76944108Your citation of the map assumes that the populations have remained stable, instead of Western civilizations being diluted by forced migration from shorter populations.
>>76944108>you’re literal superhumans have to follow every other rule No, they exempt from rules normal people have to follow >But more to the point: your 20th level barbarian is probably stronger than an average orc. However, a 20th level Orc barbarian is probably stronger than your non-Orc barbarianWhy not have ability caps then?>height is a racial rule >posts averages Top kek, you’re funny.
>>76944108>It is true that your person could be exceptionally strong or an Orc exceptionally weak, but these would obviously be exceptions.It's almost like adventurers are exceptions to the rule by definition.
>>76944234>It's almost like adventurers are exceptions to the rule by definition.Kind of but not in this case. This would be a fair comparison for PC vs NPC classes, but in standard DND there is no rule that allows player characters to have access to something that NPCs of the same class would not have access too. In fact, the existence of Monster Feats in some edition gives npc access to more things than PCs can. But let's assume that's true for the sake of argument. PCs are exceptional. Is the solution then that PCs shouldn't have to follow racial rules, but everyone else should?
>>76944234Holy shit anon! You’re so smart! Adventures being exceptions to the obvious is a REALLY hard concept to understand.
>>76944295>PCs shouldn't have to follow racial rules, but everyone else shouldMore like averages, things like darkvision and a breath weapon should be hard rules.
>>76944330Why? If we are accepting that averages are not the baseline, why not accept that some races may not have darkvision through some genetic fluke?
Only if you're a minmaxing autist that likes to suck the fun out of everything you do because that's what minmaxers do.
>>76944295>But let's assume that's true for the sake of argument. PCs are exceptional. Is the solution then that PCs shouldn't have to follow racial rules, but everyone else should?What's wrong with having generic statblocks be average examples of the race?
>>76944401Some people think it limits race and class combination
>>76944359>Why? If we are accepting that averages are not the baseline, why not accept that some races may not have darkvision through some genetic fluke?Because averages aren’t hard limits, if they were they wouldn’t be called averages. Racial features are hard rules.
>>76944401did you not read the OP
>>76944401>What's wrong with having generic statblocks be average examples of the race?Nothing, it makes perfect sense that an average person would have the average statblock of their race. PCs aren’t average though.
>>76944430That is a distinction without difference. You can with no more authority say that all orcs have darkvision than those that have +STR/-INT. They are both characteristics of their race. It's completely arbitrary to call one an average and the other a hard rule. Either let your races do whatever is possible, no matter how unlikely, or make them abide by averages. Don't mix them both, it is inconsistent
>>76944449>did you not read the OPSince when are PCs and generic statblocks the same thing? Monsters shouldn't be following PC generation rules. >>76944451That's exactly what I just said.
>>76943361>That being said, every stage you remove yourself from normalcy is another inch closer to your character being a nonsensical Mary Sue clusterfuckIf you’re an autist with no concept of role playing yeah
>>76944469>That is a distinction without difference.Nope, ability bonues can be described as averages. Racial features are something everyone has. It’s really simple >ability scores = averages >ability features = non averages If you want a mutation, I suggest you talk to your DM
>>76944547Racial ability scores ARE racial features. They are derived from ones race
It's actually completely fucking fine for your character to not have the best possible stats, so no, it doesn't limit combinations.
>>76944547>If you want a mutation, I suggest you talk to your DM>if you want to play a mutant Orc with hi IQ go ahead and do that>if you want to play a mutant Orc with no darkvision you need to ask
>>76944561No, now you’re just playing semantics. In your character sheet itself there’s a section about racial FEATURES. There’s a mechanical difference.
>>76944585>if you want to play a mutant Orc with hi IQ go ahead and do thatYep, you got it
>>76944607There isn't. They are both qualities derived from your race. You can't say one is just averages and the other a hard rule, it's literally an arbitrary distinction to make. How is a hyperintelligent orc any different from an orc without darkvision, or any less of a mutant?
>>76944451PC's aren't average. This is exactly right. This is exactly why you can allocate whatever stat generation method however you want. Put your highest stat where you want, there you're above average at that thing for your race.
>>76944645>How is a hyperintelligent orc any different from an orc without darkvision, or any less of a mutant?Probability
>>76941868The Participation Trophy Generation has come of age.
>>76944687Probability of mutations among a totally fictional race? Yeah that's a believable justification and not a total ass pull.
>>76944540The more the character requires the laws of reality, normalcy, and logic to warp around it to even make sense, the more Mary Sue it is.I think being a half-fiend half-celestial is fucking retarded too, but the kind of person who pushes the idea of "Play whatever you want!" would find that concept totally valid as well.I believe its possible to play a really odd specimen of a character. I don't have faith that you, specifically, can do it without it being gay and stupid.
>>76944687>ProbabilityDoesn't matter PCs are exceptional
>>76944607>In your character sheet itself there’s a section about racial FEATURES. There’s a mechanical difference.Racial ability score increases are considered traits, which are mechanically identical to features and both go in the same space you're referring to.
>>76944715>probability of mutations among a fictional race Uh yeah why not? Also what is inherently bad about an arbitrary rule? What if it just might be enjoyable to customize abilities but be limited on features?
>>76944755>Racial ability score increases are considered traits, which are mechanically identical to featuresObviously not because ability bonuses aren’t listed as features.
>>76944630No, it’s retarded.
>>76944791>Obviously not because ability bonuses aren’t listed as features.They absolutely are listed in the Features & Traits space if you're filling out your character sheet as intended.
>>76944775I don't mr loosey goosey do whatever you want. You say I can have +2 INT for my Orc but I can't have Arcane Focus instead of darkvision? Sounds a lot like you're limiting my class and race combo here
>>76944807>They absolutely are listed in the Features & Traits spaceYikes man, you just got destroyed by pic rel. sorry. >>76944815Yes
>>76944926oh hey look it's the actual fucking handbookYIKES MAN
>>76945007You said character sheet, not handbook. Playing with you is funny lol.
>>76945032Mhm. And where on your character sheet would you think one might put the stuff listed in the handbook under Traits? Would it perhaps be in the Features & Traits section? I mean, I'm going pretty far out on a limb here but I'd say that's probs your best bet.
>>76941868Who said the game was about being 'optimal'? It's a game about storytelling and adventure not min-maxing you virgin.
>>76945069>Features & Traits section?Well, from my observation it appears to be in the racial traits section.
>>76945102That's literally not a thing on the official 5E character sheet.
>>76945130DnD beyond is official content anon...
>>76945158>DnD beyondOh I'm sorry I didn't realize I was talking to a special needs player.
>>76945182Why are you playing a game with content for special needs players?
>>76945201Because I like my hobbies to be inclusive.
>>76945219Calling me a special needs player isn’t very inclusive anon.
>>76945253We all fall short of our ideals from time to time.Also I checked a Beyond character sheet and the racial traits section you showed is literally in the Features & Traits section exactly like I said.
>>76945294No, it’s literally got a different subtitle. You’re the special needs player anon.
>>76945330You are literally a ding-dong.Furthermore, if you export that Beyond character sheet to PDF, it explicitly lists the racial ability score bonus in that section, too.
>>76941868Thats the autism filter. A chad would embrace non optimal stats and make something cool like a voodoo shaman Lizardfolk Artificer that creates his arcane cannon/magic items/iron defender out of the bones, skin and pelts of fallen enemies, or a Changeling Phantom Rogue that BECOMES the spirits they speak with. Stop thinking optimally and start having fun.
>>76944607odd, given that racial ability score increases (adjustments) are the very first item under racial traits, the same area that lists all other racial traits, like spells or abilities or darkvision or size or speed. they are all traits derived from race. no semantics involved. it literally says :(5e phb pg 36) "Your gnome character has certain characteristics in common with all other gnomes."(5e phb pg 34) "Your draconic heritage manifests in a variety of traits you share with other dragonborn."etc. etc. racial ability scores are a racial trait, they are a function of your race.
>>76941917I feel like this post is sarcasm. except for the don't play dnd part
>>76941868>t: unimagine fuckWhy not play as an orc aspiring to become a mage?
>>76945684because that would be sub-optimal. and OP is literally incapable of choosing something that is limited in any way, shape, or form.
>>76941868Limiting class and race combinations was literally the point. In 1974, a dwarf couldn't even be a wizard.
>>76945684I HAVE TO HAVE THE BEST NUMBERSIF I DON'T HAVE THE BEST NUMBERS HOW WILL I WIN THE HARDEST AT D&D????
>>76943361>"That's right, tiny one. Goliath rogues are a stupid, unbelievable idea. You saw nothing."
>>76941868You do know that before this, there were race resections right? Like you couldn't play a class at all if you were a certain race?All this is just giving certain races advantages that make sense. Certain people are better at certain things than others. That's something you see in real life! No one's stopping you from making a Goliath Rogue, or a Gnome Barbarian. You're not gonna suffer much if at all from it.>>76942238>>76942287>>76942386And considering you're not bothering to use that shriveled raisin of a brain to think past that and just ignore numbers, you're the only one here who gives a shit about those numbers. DnD is a game of imagination and what the players decide. If it really bothers you that fucking much, just find a group who'll agree to no race bonus. Jesus fucking Christ, what an autist...
>>76946942>Crab_ninja.pngHonestly that's what fucks with me that most.
>>76947074> DnD is a game of imagination and what the players decideimagine thinking that dndogshit is the only game which does this
>>76941868If you're powergaming, yeah. Just ask your group to ignore or change them.I agree that ability bonuses are silly, since them being standardized presupposes your character is the average of whatever your race is. More emphasis should be put on the character's actual physical traits when it comes to bonuses. I think Tasha's is pretty good for this, though I was apprehensive at first.
>>76947156No i'm just saying you're an asswhip if you allow numbers to keep you from enjoy a game.
>>76941868It increases immersion. Your character is a part of the world and as such is affected by how that world works and its history. Gnomes are small and would have trouble keeping up in a head to head fight, ost Orcs come from societies that value physical might and combat prowes over all else. Stuff like these is reflected in the racial bonues.
>>76941868>>racial ability bonuses >Who thought this was a good idea?If all the races play the same then there is no point in having them. You might as well just cut them out.
>>76947810Roleplay exists, anon. What you said might be true by game design logic, but these aren't /real/ games.
>>76941868Only if you care about strict optimization, otherwise it doesn't limit anything. And if you do care about strict optimization, there will always be a race that's optimal for one build over another, unless you make all races the same. At which point you'll have even less race and class combinations, namely just one.
>>76941868Why is there a redditor in here?
>>76947861Reflavoring has always been something that people have accepted at tables informally, because it doesn't influence how strong your character is or anything like it. So just reflavor for your roleplay needs.
>>76947810So replace ability score improvements with actual interesting racial features.
>What is roleplaying: The thread.
>>76947948But if the actually interesting racial features are significant enough that they become significant parts of builds and your character, such as interesting racial features that make orcs the premier barbarian race for example.. don't we just end up with the same situation all over again?Now, I'd still prefer having actual racial features over just stats but we're not solving the underlying issue here, that some combinations are more optimal than others.
>>769479735e isn't a roleplaying game, its a wargame.
>>76947861So what is a real game?
>>76947977Depends on what kind of features you incorporate. Imo ability scores should be a thing you can alter within reason or at least come from some kind of background kind of how pf2e does it, and then give each race a couple of different roleplaying options for racial traits, something more abstract to play off of and really build your pc's "character". There will always be a meta and there will always be an optimal way to play so there is literally no way in preventing that, but it is fun to play something different and not feel like you're a dead weight in the party because of all the arbitrary negative stats.
>>76947948Nah retards like OP will still cry about it. They don’t care about roleplay, they just want to find best way to roll.
>>76941868It is natural that a race that lives in different areasare evolved differentlyMany blacks do have amazing athletic prowess but most of them arent further from a gorila when it comes to brain activity
>>76948061Big fan of how PF2e does it as well. There is still an ability score tax, in that if your race has a penalty to something, you can undo it and even your free racial boost in there, but it costs you two -2's elsewhere, so you end up having less stats overall. And you get interesting features.>but it is fun to play something different and not feel like you're a dead weight in the party because of all the arbitrary negative stats.I agree. Fortunately in 5e that's quite easy to accomplish in most groups because most tables are very very poorly optimized. Want to play a fighter, but you don't get Dex OR Strength? You can make a hexblade dip into fighter levels work effectively. An orc with -2 int for a wizard? Sure can, take spells that don't require intelligence such as summons, and enjoy your added mobility with aggressive. No dex on a rogue? Go strength and dip or use a feat to get medium armor, and the list goes on.There isn't a single race/class combination that isn't at least usable at most tables, except for race/class combinations that include monk. Not because Monks NEED Wis and Dex, but because even when you get Wis and Dex you are a pretty ineffective character, with no way to fix this issue.
>>76948139Edit: Well, not just the average table being poorly optimized, but also there being a lot of ways to improve your character despite having wonky racial score improvements. The one thing you can't do though is a GWM build on a small race, because of the size restriction. You'd have to cast enlarge on yourself all the time and that just doesn't work well.
>>76948139I had to stop playing dnd with my 40k friends because they actually cannot play dnd unless they read one of those rpgbot guides and build around it. I just straight up wont play dnd or pf with them anymore. Felt really good when I got invited to dnd with some work friends, sat down, and just held the party together as a normal ass cleric.
>>76941868Yes, and? That's the point. It's a feature, not a bug.
>>76945158>DnD beyond is official content anon...Its literally a third party, its not official
>>76941868No, it makes the choice meaningful.There is no point in a choice that doesent affect anything, if you remove the mechanical differences to races they may as well not be there.
>>76943400why don't you farm your reading comprehension skills faggot
>>76943376Anon, if you type Sage in the options field your post wont bump the thread.
>>76941868>Who thought this was a good idea?People who wanted non-human races to feel mechanically distinct and to have their differences reflected in their strengths and weaknesses. >All this does is limit class and race combinations.Where in the rulebook does it say that you cannot play X class with Y race (beyond extremely niche circumstances such as Bladesingers)? Did you mean to say it's not optimal? Who fucking cares if it's not optimal? This isn't a competitive video game.
>>76942238>It literally does, some class and races combinations have advantages over others.Seems like a good thing. If everything was the same, there would be little point to having races and classes.
>>76950066>Seems like a good thing. If everything was the same, there would be little point to having races and classes.You end up with a game like Skyrim
>>76942238PHB 1e elf--"A character of elven stock can opt to be a fighter (maximum of 7th level), a magic-user (maximum of 11th level), a thief, or an assassin (maximum of 10th level)."Elves had stat bonuses, but were limited in their class choices and capped to max levels in most. Same with dwarves etc.That designers later uncapped the classes/level of elves, dwarves and other demi-humans while keeping the race stat bonuses is their own damn fault.
>>76941868>"wahhhh, i wanna be a half-dragon, half-orc, half-ogre wizard-rogue-samurai like my animes and the DM won't let me">-The Threadplease go play skyrim or something, faggot OP - this is a board for people who like traditional games
>>76941868>Literally not able to play with a single number penaltyMin max faggots are the absolute worst.>>76941894Fpbp.
>>76941868>>racial ability bonuses>Who thought this was a good idea? All this does is limit class and race combinations.It didn't when they were introduced, because ability scores were far less important.When your rogue is allowed to use Dexterity to make melee attacks with light weapons (3E and newer) it is suddenly much more of a problem that the Elf gets a bonus on Dex, but in 2E your dagger attack bonus and your greatsword attack bonus were both calculated from Strength, so it didn't matter.Spell saves were not affected by Intelligence, so giving Grey Elves +int instead of +dex almost made them grey elf wizards *less* useful in combat because they lost AC but didn't get better spells (outside of combat, it was different)Etc./
>>76942706>sweatienah that's tumblr copypasta, calling somebody "sweaty" instead of "sweety"
>>76941868>races are racistWe should be allowed to choose our appearance and bonuses! Fuck the patriarchy and all privileged white cis males.
>>76941917Now THIS is quality bait.
>>76942287It really doesn't, faggot.
>>76942386Please provide explanation as to how is a gnome prevented from being a fighter.
>>76950938it's bait for also probably official policy. they released a memo awhile back saying they were going to be more respectful in their depiction of orcs and dark elves because these races were somehow analogues for real world cultures.
>>76943028>t. powergamerOpinion discarded.
>>76950994sorry, sauce fpr the unbelievers:Wizards of the Coast is revamping the way races are depicted in Dungeons & Dragons. Take orcs, for example. An evil homogeneous race of humanoid green-skinned barbarians no more, according to the blog post. Orcs have feelings and motivations. In fact, they are as complex and diverse as humans. It’s all part of a strategy to be more racially and culturally sensitive throughout the game system. “We will continue that approach in future books, portraying all the peoples of D&D in relatable ways and making it clear that they are as free as humans to decide who they are and what they do.”Wizards of the Coast is dedicated to more diverse hiring, and they’re working with consultants to vet their products and make sure they’re not inadvertently perpetuating harmful stereotypes. The studio is committing to correcting past misdeeds by updating long-time favorite publications.
>>76943376>human subspeciesHere's your (You), /pol/tard.
>>76941868>>racial ability bonuses>Who thought this was a good idea? All this does is limit class and race combinations.>get to play other races , still complain That's why you people cant have good things
>>76943605By how the look?
Why are there so many people who miss the point of D&D and treat it like a generic universal fantasy role playing game system?Actually, what are some generic universal fantasy role playing systems that isn't GURPS Fantasy?
>>76941868I don't know, God? Why are samoans huge? Why are japs tiny? Why are niggers retarded?
>>76941868>limitIf you want to min max yes. If you want to RP no. Depends on the group. We mostly play shitty characters on purpose and have a blast. After the first few years of epic fantasy some shakeup is in order in every players life.
>>76953075>Why are there so many people who miss the point of D&D and treat it like a generic universal fantasy role playing game system?Because back in the 3.x era dumbasses went around going YOU CAN USE D&D FOR EVERYTHING and retards believed them.
>>76953850>dumbasses went around going YOU CAN USE D&D FOR EVERYTHING and retards believed them.I mean, you can. You just have to homebrew everything and replace everything but the basic d20 system
>>76941868> Playing only min-maxed, cookie cutter and boring characters.What's the fucking point? Why do you even play DnD or any roleplay game? What you do was done by millions of people already, you can just watch some bs YT series or read any generic fantasy book instead.Even from mechanical point of the game, using the same, perfected combinations is just unfun. You limit yourself just to "the best" options that everybody saw on table 10000000 times already and are fucking boring.Consider stopping playing at all, you're worst kind of player. Even that fucking homo furry trannie that want to play as Ninja Ferret and smells like shit is better.
>>76942410>ArbitraryYes, because it's completely arbitrary that half giants would have a strength advantage against gnomes.
>>76941868Limits give a fixed quality to something. Play some systemless freeform game if you do not like limitations.
>>76951041>implying this isn't the default worldview of the majority of apolitical people
>>76954335For the sake of the argument, could you explain what you mean with that term?
>>76954388>could you explain what you mean with that term?People like your mom
>>76943376>No amount of denialism, theft or propaganda will change this.The basis of political correctness politics is to change the perception of reality by removing conflicting views in public, silencing those that still manage to disagree.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
>>76942386How so?Most systems do not have an ability requirement for classes, and racials rarely amount to a massive difference.Do some race-class combinations get an advantage over others? Yes.Does this make the others non-viable or restricted? Only if you are powergaming and/or an autist who goes rabid over a +5% chance to hit.(which will eventually be negated by ability score caps in the case of DnD)
>>76951013>they’re working with consultants to vet their products and make sure they’re not inadvertently perpetuating harmful stereotypes.Harmful stereotypes of what? Orcs aren't real.
>>76954798Don't you know orcs are actually black people?
>>76948061in 5e, using standard array, you have 1 negative stat. and 4 positive stats. without using racial ability mods. 5e is devoid of any arbitrary negative stats. the racial mods are +1, +2, plus abilities.meaning an average pc is way above average for his race by virtue of the array alone. the entire argument in this thread is about any/every combo should be optimal. no one should have to have a sub-optimal design by not playing to their strengths, because their strengths should be whatever is optimal, not what is inline with their racial characteristics. which is kinda bullshit. characters should be defined by their strengths and weaknesses both.
In my setting I let you have a little more leeway when choosing ability score bonuses.That's because all of my races have 2 game-impacting passive natural abilities and 1 powerful racial feat, completely unique to them and built around biological and cultural lore. Even different humans.Who the fuck cares about piddly ability scores.
>>76941868Back in the day, RPGs were a bit different. The Game part used to be much more important. That does not mean that there was no story or no worldbuilding, but people generally understood that DM will offer them some scenarios to play through, be it tactical combat or a dungeon full of traps. It used to have a clear fail state. Nowadays playing with randoms feels more and more like amateur theatre, but hey, I'm not telling you how to have fun.So to cut the rambling, mechanical design used to be much more important ( important =/= successful or balanced). It wasn't enough that you had your race written down on your sheet, it needed to have some mechanical distinction from other races.(not) tldr; racial bonuses exist to tie your rp choices into the rules engine. The newer generation tends to dislike good game design because muh roleplaying. Holy shit, the paradox of wanting serious roleplaying, but also screeching when your choices have consequences. Why do you faggots keep separating RP and G with an equivalent of the great wall of china?>>76941894fpbp>>76943850no, but there is a fail state in your character dieing. A game doesn't necessarily need a way to win it, but it needs a way to fail.>>76945428I wish more people were like this
>>76941868>All this does is limit class and race combinations.Only if you play a shit system that means you can't play any class with any stat as a primary.D&D is a shit for refusing to let you play Strength Wizards, Intelligence Fighters, Dexterity Barbarians, Charisma Rogues, and Wisdom Warlocks (Constitution doesn't count, as every class kind of wants it).This way you can include racial ability score bonuses without "restricting" the race/class combos players can play and emphasize that different races are good at different things and as such express the same concept (the class) in different ways.
>>76943361The Goliath rogue doesn´t even hideHe pretends to be an statue with Performance skill
OP is right, and it has nothing to do with putting roleplaying over mechanics.Racial bonuses lead to synergy, and synergy leads to builds. Builds are bad because they encourage homogeneity and player skill as system mastery (as opposed to player skill as creative thinking).http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2016/12/designing-races.html
>>76941868Originally, it existed as a way to salvage characters that would otherwise be unplayable due to the existence of Class restrictions derived from Ability Scores.In the modern game they're indeed pretty much pointless - not unlike Races and Ability Scores in general.
>>76943361>unless its SO magical and fantastical that material reality literally does not matter at all, then a Goliath rogue seems pretty retarded.
>>76962493Hear me outWhat if we kept racial bonuses (and maybe drawbacks if you're the kinda DM that likes to subtract from a stat on certain races)But we add or subtract them from the stat cap instead of the players stats directly?So while your Orc character doesn't have +2 STR, he does have a STR cap of 22 compared to the halfling's cap of 18. Which would effectively still bring that element of "certain races are better at certain things" without pigeonholing the player.So a player COULD make a wimpy wizard orc if they want, not all orcs focus on getting buff, but he lacks the potential to be as good at it as someone with a higher INT cap like an elf. He'll hit his potential faster in that regard, without having his stats directly reduced
You should just get an optimal stat array from your class. Background should provide proficiencies and skills, and race should confer bonus stuff like dark sight, dwarves abilities to know true north, shit like that. Race being more of a flavor/extra thing makes them far more interesting than just more numbers
>>76966413Honestly the only sensible way to deal with ability scores is to excise them from the game like wisdom teeth or some other vestigial appendages that may have ostensibly served a role in the past, but now only causes problems.
>>76966620Really though, whats the issue with affecting natural stat caps?Its not like they can't be extended magically, and it still imposes a similar restriction racially based on their genetic limitations without directly ass fucking the players rolls. So they still get those sweet digits they rolled up without getting them fucked around by racial bonuses, they'll just have to keep in mind if they play a bad class/race combo that their main stat might naturally cap at 18 instead of 20 and if they want that +5 modifier they'll need to seek out a magic item
>>76966413The problem with that is that they only matter if you are willing to push that stat to the upper limit. If not, then it's useless.
>>76969052Well what if the usual instant bonuses were instead obtained via choosing a "culture" in addition to your race. Your race would determine the upper limit if your stat caps, as well as give you a few racial traits.But your culture would determine what stat benefits you've gained from your life up to that point
>>76941868>All this does is limit class and race combinations.That's the point retard. Go watch critical role
Racial bonuses are necessary because players don't give a fuck about rarity.Look at the races they pick already. >Oh tieflings are super rare and almost always reddish, and dragon born are rare too and so are half-elves.>Dragonborn tiefling half elf party, all with random names, colors, and alignmentsIf you tried to give them any stats for any race it'd be the same.>Oh tiny fairies are usually spellcasters and fae warriors aren't as strong, better put all my stats into close combat so I can be special, just like my giant mage friend and super duper charismatic *insert hideous monster* Bard friend.
>>76959526My theory is that as video games have become more popular and technologically advanced, the crunch of RPG's is easy to get from any old cRPGs, of which there are many multiplayer ones. What you can't get with video games is the actual RP, so that's what drew the new wave of players to ttrpgs. Its what they can't get anywhere else so its pretty much all they seem to care about.
>>76941868For physical abilities, its a good and sensible idea, and can hardly be avoided if you want any degree of physical distinction. Fortunately, in anything D&D adjacent at least, there's usually multiuple ways to play any given class, and most stats do at least some good for most builds. Mental, though? It makes assumtions about the state of mind, the personality and the background of your character, usually in ways that make sense only statistically. And the way D&D does it, every caster suffers from SAD, and playing against assumed stats has little to no benefit or recourse. I say, give everyone a racial physical bonus, a standard floating mental bonus, and then let the player decide whether the mental or their physical abilities are the larger of the two.
>>76969858That's an interesting observation and it actually describes my recent experiences well, but I've also notices another thing.Excuse my /pol/posting, but it's at least partially rationalization. People subconciously don't want to think "bad" thoughts and now that stupid orcs are considered racist, they need a reason to dislike racial ability modifiers.Perhaps I'm overthinking this, but it's not the first time something gets attacked for ideological reasons and some faggots answer with: "eh, it was bad/boring/cringe(note: whoever caused cringe to become a popular word deserves rope) anyway, getting this removed is Actually A Good Thing (TM)." To me, it reeks of conformism.
>>76966659That's basically the point - they don't actually do anything to improve the game. I personally dislike abstracted ability scores in general and would gladly do away with them altogether, but the justification for racial modifiers has always been specious and since 3e basically their benefit is essentially non existent.
>>76941868It's just instinctual. Different races have different traits as a given
>>76973253So do individuals in-group. There exists no sensible rational for this particular sacred cow...
>>76973472Yes there does, and there exists rational for also having a layer of traits available for characters on top of built-in racial traits. You're not invalidating racial traits by saying individuals are also born with inherent differences, you're just strengthening the argument.
>>76971498awesome, i have been labeled bumpfag. i am not that cool, just an oldfag. it was a simple question for someone making an obnoxious statement. >just replace it with something cool.at that point, one should provide an example of the alternative suggestion. it is just common courtesy, not to mention proper argument etiquette. it was intentionally curt, in order to express disdain towards a post of such low value, and intellectual merit.you on the other hand are just a raging autist faggot, engaged in a quixotic battle against giant windmills.
>>76973764Windmill turbines typed this post
>>76973472true, but racial ability mods are the defining differences between groups. that is kinda the damn point. an average elf is more dexterous than an average human, but a human pc is more anything than an average human in 4 areas straight up. and can easily be more dexterous than an average elf. the stat array, or rolled stats, already single you out for your individual differences from your group.
>>76973779now i am an ai, you must be mad.
>>76973969I was making a joke
>>76973472>So do individuals in-group.Yes, which is why races get bonuses and not set that.Now that you've proven your retardation beyond question, why don't you shoot yourself? The world would be a better place for it.
>>76941868>All this does is limit class and race combinations.I would be glad if it was made in such a way that the classic fantasy races would be the most optimal choice.And I would feel offended if I were to play a post-3e kobold (I adore them) and got no mechanical consequences for it.I would feel bad if I made genasi that would not get his inherited powers.>>76970396>whoever caused cringe to become a popular word deserves ropeWhen I hear "krindż" spoken in polish this word sounds even worse.>>76973472>no sensible rationalAdd logical and good. You know, to appear rational.>So do individuals in-groupSo? In 5e, for hero type you have got 4d6 drop the lowest that gives you a slanted bell curve of values from 3 to 18, racial modifiers vary from +1 to +2, rarely you get any negative modifier.I know that there are other racial traits, but still, this is quite a "sensible" way of making D&D *species* not so different from each other.>>76973662>You're not invalidating racial traits by saying individuals are also born with inherent differences, you're just strengthening the argument.I fail to see how it does either, it just doesn't disprove the significance of differences between fictional species.
>>76941868GURPS is shit.
There are clear differences between what we call human races. Why wouldn't there be clear differences in even more distinct fantasy races?
>>76974219*bell curve for ability score values from 3 to 18or whatever, I don't do math in Albionian.
Races having a statistic influence is pretty stupid, because it's obviously based upon the average of their race. It's a whopping swing of 2 whole points, but without even touching those points a PC ranges from 8 to 15 in every stat at level 1. They are way outside of the bounds of their race's averages, so applying the averages to them makes no sense.Should just be the different unique skills/abilities/etc. and having a culture to place your character into.
>>76974353This. Obviously the orc is dumber but stronger than a human, while a dwarf is tougher but slower. The races are very clearly different. Why the fuck WOULDN'T they be?
>>76959526>>76941868>>76942238shitty low effort nostalgia postsIt's pretty easy, really.If orc has +2 str he's gonna be better at damaging but if elf Has +2 agi, he's gonna be better at at hittingAnd if human has additional perk he might be better at AoE or tankingIts all a matter of system, if a designer decides that fighters main role is to dps then orcs>all, if tanking then dwarfs>allBut if there's place for more roles at one class, then racial bonuses have a great role to play.
>>76974219It was auto-corrected from 'rationale' (stupid phone). Anyway, I still don't see the point it's another annoying little detail - sure the complication is negligible, but the benefit is nigh non-existent.Mark my words, cosmetic only races are the wave of the future.