I think it's generally accepted that in modern-ish or science fiction settings, swords are not really viable against opponents armed with guns. Settings come up with ridiculous stuff, like personal energy shields in Dune, that stop fast bullets, but let slower swords through, or stuff like "guns damage the spaceship hull, we must resort to melee" to justify people using swords.Is this level of justification needed? I think particularly in urban settings, with generally shorter sight-lines, and lots of opportunities for surprise, swords/knives are almost viable against guns.For a realistic example, consider, that a guy with knife bum-rushes someone who has his gun drawn. In the time it takes to aim the gun, and shoot at the knife guy a few times, the knife guy will probably close the distance and stab the shooter. Keep in mind, most shots are not immediately lethal, so in this scenario both people will probably end up mortally wounding each other.If we introduce a few low-sf/fantastic elements, like giving the sword guy an armor thats about as effective as modern bulletproof plates, but is light/flexible, or giving the sword guy slightly superhuman speed/agility (so like twice as fast a a regular person, not superhero level), I think the encounter could easily go in the sword guys favor.
>>76940240>Settings come up with ridiculous stuff, like personal energy shields in Dune, that stop fast bullets, but let slower swords throughThat's not how it works in Dune. When you hit a shield with a lasgun it creates a huge explosion that is likely to kill you as well. That's why swords are employed in combat, it's simply too dangerous to shoot a shield with a gun.
>>76940240There are two things wrong with this:1. Guns being around doesn't suddenly mean you can't die to being shanked to death. However, it may seem that way because mechanically the hero isn't going to die in one or probably multiple stabs because then it wouldn't be heroic in that case just the same how the majority of bullets miss or merely graze them or somehow manage to hit them in such a way as to not cause a completely incapactiating wounds.2. Even in real life you may not have full on full auto rifles at your side and there is always the chance you could be disarmed. Depending on the person you're dealing with a stone cold killer with a machete is going to be infinitely more effective than suburban mom who's never held a gun before.3, because fuck you that's why, just adjust the skills of the system so your "fighter" knows how to use blades and martial arts just the same as they know how to use guns.
>>76940240>For a realistic example, consider, that a guy with knife bum-rushes someone who has his gun drawn. In the time it takes to aim the gun, and shoot at the knife guy a few times, the knife guy will probably close the distance and stab the shooter. Keep in mind, most shots are not immediately lethal, so in this scenario both people will probably end up mortally wounding each other.Sure, the knife wielder can do well in that scenario. But so will a gun wielder who has the same element of surprise. But a gun is still useful if the surprise fails for whatever reason.To make swords viable, you need regular situations where someone would be smart to take the sword over a gun if they had a choice. The best way to do it in RPGs is not to say that guns are less effective, it's to say that guns attract too much attention. Fire a gun and someone will hear it* and call the police. Who come in heavily armed. But get someone with a knife and, as long as nobody sees you, you've got a lot more time to get away.*Or maybe a computer system listening to microphones spread across the city picks it up.
>>76940388Okay, thats true, but that's beside the point. The point is that a character with precognition/superhuman reflexes, etc. would not use a sword because of some made-up in-universe limitation. He would use swords, because in his hands, they are a more effective weapon.
>>76940240>I think particularly in urban settings, with generally shorter sight-lines, and lots of opportunities for surprise, swords/knives are almost viable against guns.>For a realistic example, consider, that a guy with knife bum-rushes someone who has his gun drawn. In the time it takes to aim the gun, and shoot at the knife guy a few times, the knife guy will probably close the distance and stab the shooter.I'm seriously questioning my own memory because I remember hearing about this but I can't find anything on google no matter how hard I try. Maybe someone else can explain/correct/elaborate, but allegedly somewhere in the early 2000s the US military had a lot of trouble with sword attacks. Sword armed Jihadis would disguise themselves among the populace, then jump out and slash at US troops with their swords in the knowledge that the Americans firing back would risk friendly fire or civilian casualties.
>>76940240Watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fjMpn7JCJ0
>>76940388>That's not how it works in Dune. When you hit a shield with a lasgun it creates a huge explosion that is likely to kill you as well. That's why swords are employed in combat, it's simply too dangerous to shoot a shield with a gun.No, that's exactly how it works in Dune. Las guns cause a random variable nuclear explosion from either point of the shield or firer, regardless you don't want to be on either end of the equation. Bullets and projectiles going over a certain speed rate (sword included) are bounced off, with the shield having absolute mechanical and weight advantage to boot.>>76940240>ridiculous stuff, like personal energy shields in Dune, that stop fast bullets, but let slower swords throughThat's not ridiculous at all. The reason why shields aren't "perfect" is because the shield's occupant needs to breath and move, and move things in and out of his own shield to eat, sit down, etc. By the very mechanical nature of the device matter must be allowed to pass through the shield or its worthless. Sword fighting was developed around this exploitative element. However, there's also spring guns and remote controlled drones that can bypass the shield. Not to mention poison weapons, etc. Swords are just as much a societal trend in Dune as a practical necessity. Then there's a few other issues with the shield technology. One it pisses off Sand Worms and they don't give a shit how "strong" it is. Also, it produces a low key anti gravity effect that will render you a disgusting fat ass (prequel recon fags needn't mention the alternative explanation) like the Baron if you use it all the time.>>76940635>The point is that a character with precognition/superhuman reflexes, etc. would not use a swordYou have no idea what they'd do as there's no comparable explanation of what having those abilities are like. For all you know the enhanced reflexes trashes your ability to aim making melee the only practical way to take advantage of it.
>>76940240In SLA Industries bullets are too fucking expensive to rely on. Also, sponsorship deals are less favourable for gun users since the viewers wants to see a show instead of BANG-YOU'RE-DEAD.
Never forget about giving the swords symbolic/religious significance. For example, lightsabers in Star Wars: - They are more of a defensive weapon than a blaster. Especially at a distance. - Saying "I brought a sword to a gun fight and still expect to win" is a strong statement. - For the Jedi, they also serve as a badge of office. - For the Sith, beating their Jedi with the Jedi traditional weapon is one way of showing Sith superiority.>>76940240>If we introduce a few low-sf/fantastic elements, like giving the sword guy an armor thats about as effective as modern bulletproof plates, but is light/flexible, or giving the sword guy slightly superhuman speed/agility (so like twice as fast a a regular person, not superhero level), I think the encounter could easily go in the sword guys favor.Yeah, stack the deck for the sword guy and he will do well. But you haven't made a situation where the sword guy is smart for taking a sword.
>>76940843Yes, its ridiculous.Considering the only supertech (stuff that's generally not an extension of modern scientific concepts) in Dune are shields and FTL. I think the author felt compelled to introduce shields, to answer the "Why don't they nuke each other" and "Why don't they just shoot each other" questions, means that he thought swords are just not viable agains guns without "magical" in-universe help.
>>76940240Who says you have choose one or the other?
>>76940240Consider that Guns, Knifes and Martial Arts are just different tools with deferent applications.>Gun has range and high lethality, and doesn’t have much physical fitness requirements. But it is loud, needs bullets, needs maintenance and can be taken away>Knives (swords) are lethal, silent, don’t need bullets and only some maintenance, but have some physical requirements and can be taken away from you (but finding another knife is usually easier than finding a gun)>Martial arts do not have the lethality of others, but depending on the goal - this can also be a plus. High physical requirements but can not be taken away from you.Then you just add whatever fantasy/sci fi elements you want to adjust the scales to whatever side you desire.
>>76940388This always bothered me. If making a shield and laser gun were so simple, why didn't people make this shit en masse?
>>76940240One of the best reasons I found was that these sword wielders are trained to fight things where it is better to dismember them than to shoot them. Say with Highlander for instance, none of the immortals ever use guns because a) the only way to kill them is decapitation and b) most have been training with the sword for centuries and thus are stupidly skilled sword fighters. Consider that and how soldiers still to this day carry combat knives in case combat gets close enough that a gun would be unwise.
>>76940657Only tangentially related but there’s the whole reactionary gap thing. When I was in corrections I took an edged weapon defense course and we were taught that in melee range you’re going to get stuck, it’s just a matter of making sure you can deflect or avoid lethal wounds.
>>76941148>Yes, its ridiculous.No, it isn't. You've never read the books and it shows. Try reading source material before acting like you know jack shit about it.>Considering the only supertech (stuff that's generally not an extension of modern scientific concepts) in Dune are shields and FTL.Wrong. Causal anti gravity devices, personal flying vehicles, spaceships, and dimensional manipulation, psychic powers, super genetic manipulations, and artificial organs are all in their technical capabilities.>Why don't they nuke each otherShields don't stop nukes. They don't use them due to cultural prohibition and intergalactic law. Also, for religious reasons.>Why don't they just shoot each otherBecause guns are obsolete. The defense technology has superseded their use. Dune is a very well thought out world and your thread is retarded bait.
>>76940843Looks like I misremembered. I read Dune a long time ago.
>>76940240Anon, you forget that one of the main advantages of the gun is that it ALWAYS has full lethality, even at point blank range. A sword requires the person using it to have room to swing, the strength to swing it at an appropriate velocity and the stamina to continue swinging it over the duration of a fight.A gun, even at point blank range is just as lethal as it is at range with very minimal hesitation and or telegraph.Even if you are grappling (say you're within 7 yards and you can't draw fast enough so the knife wielder before he gets in range, the likely hood that the knife wielder will inflict lethal trauma on the gun wielder is significantly LESS likely than the inverse. In the time it takes to stab some one, you can stab some one with bullets multiple times. Furthermore, because of the nature of mechanism of injury bullets are more likely to hit something immediately lethal the heart, lungs, spleen, brain ect. than the knife is. The Primary mechanism of death in both cases is most often massive hemorrhage though even in that regard the gun and the knife are essentially equally traumatic. Even with 'modern armor' bullets still have kinetic energy which has to go somewhere. There's a fair amount of documentation regarding people being shot in the body armor and GENERALLY SPEAKING it's not exactly something that you just ignore, especially if you are shot multiple times.Knives/swords vs guns is just pure fiction sure there are VERY specific circumstances where some one with a knife could kill some one with a gun, but without fantastic elements that go beyond those you described (armor and 2x faster reflexes I don't think goes far enough to equalize the playing field, particularly because those can also be taken advantage of people who *also* have guns)
>>76940657The only instances where swords were used, were where the assailants already had overwhelming numbers advantages. I can't think of a singlel instance where actual uniformed troops were attacked with swords. There were allegations that during the killing of the four blackwater contractors in Fallujah, they were mutilated with sword before they were burned.attacking a foot patrol isn't as simple as "haha we jump out at and start hacking them!"
>>76941448>Martial arts do not have the lethality of othersIn any combat situation it's better to have a weapon than not but unarmed combat isn't less lethal when you take into account bone/joint breaking and striking made with the intent to kill such as striking the back of the head near the base of the spine, eye gouging, biting, foot/inner knee, groin striking among other things.Then again, these sorts of things would be difficult to pull off mechanically without making one way of fighting vastly superior to all other options regardless of the circumstance.
>>76941456They're not. Dune explicitly states in damn near every novel that everything is hard to make because of no/little mass production. But everything is super tough, so what is made lasts a long time. One of the things that always irked me, but it's got a good in universe explanation.Also, because everything is expensive people don't want to go around nuking stuff. It's a massive waste and everyone suddenly hates you.
>>76944007I thought they didn't nuke stuff anymore because of deeply ingrained religious and cultural beliefs left over from the nuclear glassing of planets (including earth, I think?) during the machine war during the butlerian jihad era.Man, I really need to re-read it. I can't remember most of the details as well as I should.
>>76942568>unarmed combat isn't less lethal when you take into account bone/joint breaking and striking made with the intent to kill such as striking the back of the head near the base of the spine, eye gouging, biting, foot/inner knee, groin striking among other things.Unarmed combat absolutely is less lethal. Yes, there are ways to kill someone with your barehands but that are fewer and harder to pull off than with a gun or knife.Also, most of what you mentioned is not lethal - instep or groin strikes are painful and often disabling but they are not lethal.
>>76940240The problem isn't finding a use for a sword. That's easy. The problem is, why would someone choose to run around with only a sword when guns are available?I prefer to not have these silly video game characters who specialize in only one thing. I think versatile characters are more interesting. Even in a typical fantasy setting, I don't like characters walking around with just one weapon. The fighter should also have a bow.
>>76940388He was probably thinking of stargate
>>76944553You're missing the point. Dead is dead.
>>76941456>If making a shield and laser gun were so simple, why didn't people make this shit en masse?They did. Every prominent soldier and fighter can easily get their hands on shields and las weaponry.
>>76944553Martial arts has one reliable way of killing people, which is chokes and neck cranks. As lethal as a blade or bullet just not as fast
>>76940240>I think particularly in urban settings, with generally shorter sight-lines, and lots of opportunities for surprise, swords/knives are almost viable against guns."almost viable," which of course means "not viable."
>>76944222Look, this scene being homaged all the time. I get it, it's an intense and iconic scene from a great anime. That fucking elevator scene from Evangelion on the other hand needs to die.
>>76948301Dead immediately is not the same as dead after half a minute of struggle and choking if time is a factor.
>>76940240>I think it's generally accepted that in modern-ish or science fiction settings, swords are not really viable against opponents armed with gunsWhat if you're on a horse and you're facing broken infantry
>>76940240There is a reason police use guns instead of swords. Yes, you do need a justification for swords.
>>76940240Some other people have said it, but swords being viable is really just a matter of the setting you have designed and what the specific characters are trying to accomplish. Even in our world, there are places where, while firearms are incredibly prevalent, bladed weapons, from knives up to fucking swords are also incredibly commonly used. Hell knife fighting techiques are having a parellel resurgance because there's a bunch of people in third world shitholes who are finding themselves in a lot of situations where the fighting goes from guns to knives due to shit being that fucked up.But swords themselves would probably be rarer than just knives and even hatchets.
>>76940614>2. Even in real life you may not have full on full auto rifles at your side and there is always the chance you could be disarmed. Depending on the person you're dealing with a stone cold killer with a machete is going to be infinitely more effective than suburban mom who's never held a gun before.That's why you take a pistol, not a sword as your backup weapon. It's smaller, tends to be easier to draw and has the same benefits of a ranged weapon while not needing you to be roided out.
>>76940240>I think it's generally accepted that in modern-ish or science fiction settings, swords are not really viable against opponents armed with gunsyou think wrong, see Star Wars hi tech lightsabers, low tech Legend of Galactic Heroes (marines with fucking halberd sized axes), Traveller RPG for both; usage of melee weapon is situational, if there is range shooting is preferable, if you are close melee may be better option (especially if shooting may equal TPK like in Alien2). Anyway as backup knife or something is still used in military
>>76954218I guess to better illustrate my point, there was a movie that had tom cruise and jamie fox and scene where two dudes are holding up cruise's character. Both have guns out and approach him. He, being an assassin and hardened killer is not dismayed by having a gun in his face and quickly disarms the one dude, shoots the other one then double taps both for good measure.Having a gun doesn't make you a hardened killer and joe blow nobody is not typically going to have the training, reflexes and cool to do shit like disarm a dude with a gun pointed at his face.
>>76944343Remember that part where Paul is chained to the ground and channels his Bene Gesserit Hokuto Shinken and due to perfect control of every muscle in his body delivers a perfect kick to the nuts of the Harkonnen guard, killing him instantly?
Using guns may be a step too far for current political situation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_China%E2%80%93India_skirmishes
>>76954542That's retarded and will get you killed IRL.
I just do Rule of Cool. Don't really need to explain it further then that
>>76940240Who gave saber a gun?
>>76940240>Is this level of justification needed?The only justification thats ever needed is "sometimes someone just wants to stab a mothafucker."People like killing and while guns give you a range advantage people have been killing each other with close range implements with a millennia just fine, even when bows, crossbows, slings, javelins, and even early guns were around.The only out-of-game justification you need is "it looks cool">b-but muh realismOnly people who dont play games complain about that and if someone tries to join your game and starts complaining about realism, just tell them that it was their choice to join and that they are free to find a different game thats more realistic
>>76954772Yes, because my roleplaying game is 100% realistic. Thank you so much for your advice.
>>76940240Just have a setting with extreme gun control. Like I dunno, gang warfare in a hive city where police drones will railgun you if you so much as make finger pistols.
>~1890 tech level>humans are more neanderthalic>humans are stronger and more autistic>autistic humans like tradition and they think swords are cool>transmutation magic can create effective but heavy bulletproof armor
>>76940388I dont get why this was a thing >yo everyone uses the shields that explode when you shoot them >let's just hire a slave to shoot a spaceshipOr even better just make a fucking drone that or missile that shoots lasers making shields exode with the drone. Those shields are the dumbest designs I've ever heard of why would anyone ever use them? Even if they do protect against kinetic bullets, the fact you're a walking bomb offsets that quite a bit
Just make it honor based. >all the big gangs have huge stockpiles of explosives and guns >gentleman's agreement that if you have beef with another group you take it out medieval style with swords and melee weapons >if you get caught shooting someone up or using advanced weapons all the other groups will call war on you and fuck your shit up
>>76941574>knives in case combat gets close enough They carry knives because knives are a useful tool for pretty much every scenario you come across. >got bread? Here's a knife>need to open a can? Knife. >cleaning shoes? Knife. >fuck I got shot I need to cut some fabric for a bandaid. Knife. >needa cut some wire to bind shit together? Knife >needa shave? Knife. You get where I'm going?
>>76949358Anime is so full of hacks that anything even remotely Iconic will be copied almost shot for shot and reused.let's not forget when Naruto legitimately almost traced over the train fight scene in the Cowboy bebop movie
According to that one police training video a knife wielding maniac can and will kill you and a gun is useless to stop it. So who cares what someone does with a scifi setting.
>>76963647Drones are computer controlled, therefore a thinking machine, therefore forbidden by the Orange Catholic Bible.>>76941456Personal shields are extremely common. Lasguns are fairly simple, in universe, to make but they are a potential nuke so they don't get used much.>>76941148>Considering the only supertech (stuff that's generally not an extension of modern scientific concepts) in Dune are shields and FTL.Patently wrong on every level. The Holtzman effect was used to make a variety of thing that are super tech (ftl travel, ftl comms, shields, vehicles that can float in the air) to be sure but there were other techs as well. There was a lot of high end biotech such as clones, replicating complicated organic substances, shigawire, and facedancers. Go read the books.
>>76940240I can think of a few places where an edged weapon might be preferable to a firearm.>In a pressurized environment where the hull might be easily breached>Similarly, around containers that would be bad if they sprung a leak or could explode if shot>If you are sure you have the drop on the guy and you want to keep noise down to a minimum
sword look cool, simple as
>>76940388Why not just use a gun that shoots bullets
>>76941574Good point about highlander, but there is no point at which it is a good idea to use a gun instead of a knife. >>76963772 is smug and was never in the armed forces. A knife is an essential tool for outdoor survival, but not to cut bread, open cans, or shave with. God only knows how he cleans his shoes, because the knife technique is new to me. The modern bayonet is used for three purposes: as a tool, as a back up for a sudden jam during close quarters battles, and as a morale aid.
>>76966108knife instead of gun, even
>>76965776lasguns are cool
>>76940240>swords/knives are almost viable against guns.Basically never without handwavium. >swords/knives are potentially useful with guns.Is much more plausible. Doesn't have to be one or the other. >ASEKM7 bayonetM9 bayonetOKC-3S bayonetKA-BARGerber Mark IIMk 3 knifeMPK KnifeSEAL knife 2000Strider SMFVTAC are apparently all in use. Not always as weapons, often as side tools can also be weapons. Knives are useful. Guns are useful. Might as well have both.
>>76963647Because the nuke can happen at the point of the firer.
>>76966685>Basically never without handwavium.Watch surviving edged weapons you colossal faggot.
>>76966762Get shot instead of watching youtube videos.
>>76940240I prefer the 40k angle. Half the galaxy are so heavily armoured that space-magic swords become a viable option when trying to fight them.The other half attack in such great numbers and don't care for their own casualties that you'd run out of ammo before you could kill them all. Making viable close combat weapons a necessity.
>>76966982Space magic swords are viable because the main enemy, space magic demons, are creatures of emotion and feeling. They don't "feel" they should be hurt hard by a lasgun, so they aren't, regardless of the shooter's intent. But they "feel" they can be hurt by swords because swords have a visceral legacy, so swords can hurt magical daemons easier.source: horus heresy novels
>>76966821Guy can reliably stab you faster than you can raise your gun to shoot him within certain distances. This includes having the gun at the ready, too.
>>76941148A lot of dune's technology and technological limitations were designed by the author for the purpose of forcing humans to adapt and change. Herbert explicitly stated this.
>>76967103Better shoot him while he's farther away then. I'm not disparaging the effectiveness of knives. I'm saying have both. Use the gun first.
>>76940240A game called Library of Ruina have the game take place in a dystopia megacorp reality where the de facto government corpotation levies heavy tax and regulations on production, use, and distributions of firearms. Guns are just as effective as they would be, but higher calibre means lower barrel length so you have 9mm snipers or 50 cal sawed off guns, ammo is extremely expensive where it can cost more than the gun itself, body modifications mean you can have people who can actually react to bullets, and technology allows plate armor protection while not impeding movement. Buying a pistol and the required ammo is literally more expensive than buying a good baton and and bullet resistant clothing for you and your 4 pals to bum rush the gun guy. Even gangs who could afford rifles all use bayonets and recycle ammo since why waste a week worth of food on shooting a guy when you can just poke him with a sharp stick.
>>76940240What if you were fighting underwater? A knife would be much more effective than a gun there.
>>76963647In the Dune setting humanity was almost completely wiped out by robots who had no compunction against unspeakable cruelty. Robots, even simple ones are absolutely heretical. An RC helicopter is literally the child-rape of that universe. In fact child rape is considered more acceptable.
>>76968414What if you took the brain out of a bird and used it to control a missile?
>>76965776Cause a shield stops everything with more kinetic energy than confetti. Even swordfighting is done in a weird extra slow way to make sure strikes will go through shields. It's more like a wrestling match with stabbing.
>>76966982Also melee weapons in 40k are orders of magnitude stronger than ranged in many cases. A power fist allows you to tear open a tanks armour in a way that even a Krak missile would have difficulty with. Hell the first Night Lords book has them using power swords to cut their way into a Titan
>>76968439If you take the Dune prequels as canon that's equally verboten, as some of the leaders of the machines were human brains in jars with robot bodies
>>76968439THen you have 40k.
>>76968451THis is why the Sardaukar lost to Fremen, right? Fremen didn't slow themselves but the Sardaukar did because they were expecting to fight shielded enemies.
>>76968497Is that different from what the Navigators do, or do people just make an exception for them because they don't have any alternatives?
>>76940240I did two things; I changed how gunpowder works and why, and altered the regular physical goings on.The first one mostly is that I made gunpowder super super fine, like sticks in the poors fine. Mostly I made it really hard to fire long guns very often while leaving cannon and pistol mostly alone.More or less making reliable use in close combat unreliable at best.The other side of this is I made my magic be one of two things; either embedded in an object or part of a person. Magic is not cast ad hoc, it's either a talent or it's set in place long before it's needed.Mostly I'm aiming for a roughly pre-steampunk ideal and very very analogous to a real world 1900, where the brewing Great War is simmering slowly.More or less, I made it so some suaperhuman enhanced or not, find some forms of melee to be worth the trouble. Like the idea of enhanced boots, which can launch a armored fighter fast and accurate over hundred yards into the middle of a trench.It's hard to describe simply, but I have Rock Paper Scissors, Hammer Spock set up of thaumaturge, mutation, science and physics that render firearms useful in some cases but dramatically less so the more the enemy is expecting or able to deal with firearms making them a 'peasant hunting weapon' in the eyes of someone fitted with rune etched pneumatic armor.
>>76940240The issue with "guy with sword and super-human abilities" is that they would still be more effective with a gun (even if they can beat a regular gunman using a sword in some conditions)
>>76960290Emiya's dad. He's the type to blow up a dungeon instead of going in.
>>76968565Iirc navigators just replace supercomputers in terms of guiding ships. I don't think they're cybernetic as such, though they are stuck in a tank once they get to a certain level of mutation.
>>76967263> Bringing a knife to a harpoon gun fight
>>76968824Harpoons aren't even all that effective shooting into water. They're for shooting at targets that have come to the surface.The very best modern spearguns aren't very effect past 10m. Though I'm unsure if this is, at least in-part, intentional.Meanwhile, if you have a spear or knife in front of you and some good flippers or are a mermaid, you can close distance rather quickly.Turbid water, SCUBA with a speargun vs a Mermaid with a knife, my money is on the killer mermaid.