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Why are humans better than elves at magic/spellcasting in most fantasy fictions? Are elves just too slow/retarded?
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>>76937340
Considering in most settings elves live for hundreds of years and yet are at most only marginally more skilled on average, yes, they must just be dumb. So many authors missed the point of Tolkien's elves.
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That's not true for most fantasy settings and you know it.
Bait thread.
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>>76937340
But that's not what your own image says. Are you retarded yourself?
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>>76937407
No it is very much true since the vast majority of tabletop fiction (and tropey novels in general) is taken from d&d
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Fucking white frog posters, get out
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Because humans are the self-insert isekai protagonist race of fiction.
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>>76937466
D&D is retarded though, everyone knows that. Tolkien has elves better at magic and it's an even bigger source of inspiration.
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>>76937340
>WoWshit
well there's your problem
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>>76937466
You posted the two only things you'll be able to post. Your bait is stale and dumb.
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>>76937505
Fun fact: Tolkien originally envisioned Gandalf as just some human magic-user in the Hobbit before he wrote Lord of the Rings.
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>>76937466
>humans are like elves but better at everything
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>>76937541
Elder Scrolls is an example where elves take up spellcasting precedence, but aren't in-fact superior to humans or bretons. See Shalidor.
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>>76937568
Mer are the best mages, deal with it.
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>>76937606
They're the best culturally, yes.
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>>76937551
Doubt it, the inspiration for the character were gods and demigods like Odin and Vainamoinen
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>>76937340
Thats not true for any of the good ones, the bad ones are badly written on account of being bad, so it doesent matter what they do
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>>76937629
Nope. Very much true. Norse gods were just magical people. Pagan deities were in general. Nothing like an unseen and all-powerful God.
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>>76937568
Most men who aren't bretons are in comparison utter newblets in comparison to any elf in elder scrolls. Mostly because most of the men races hate magic outside of the one that they like (Restoration and Destruction) for Nords, Blackguards respectably.
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>>76937635
>its only good if elves are bettah!
lolok
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>>76937340
Yiou know why. It's because humans write the game books. It's the same reason most adversarial aliens in fiction are mouth-breathing idiots who are constantly outwitted by the genius humans.
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>>76937655
>Norse gods were just magical people

Yeah, like elves. Not like humans.
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>>76937691
Exceptional humans exist in mythology everywhere, Anon. They exist in settings like Middle-Earth too.
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>>76937670
>dwarves are the best smiths and craftsmen in the entire setting!
>but akshually those humans all beat the dwarves and are akshually so much better at working metal than them!
But you won't do that because you only have a massive stick up in your ass about elves.
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>>76937710
Odin isn't an exceptional human. He was, like elves, a magical being, which is why he's more powerful than any human in Norse mythology.
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>>76937655
>Norse gods were just magical people.
Yes, like elves. Humans on the other hand, are not magical people.
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>>76937728
Are white people superior to blacks because they're responsible for 97% of all scientific innovation in the last millennium?
>>76937753
Are you intentionally missing the point like a dingus?
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>>76937779
>Humans on the other hand, are not magical people.
Unless they have magic. I don't think Odin or Merlin would prevail against the likes of Solomon - who is 100% human - omniscient - and backed by God..
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>>76937810
Yes, humans can be powerful if they have an even more powerful god/elf/whatever backing them up.
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>>76937340
I'm not a big fan of this trope, but I do enjoy the idea that it is because elves are more cautious with learning magic because of how long that they live and humans say fuck it, at best I've got a good thirty years for this and will blow themselves up if they have to.
Be even better if elves had more refined spells while humans were more volatile.
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>>76937857
Odin had to rip out his eye and seek counsel from other entities/forces too, retard. Magic isn't something from yourself.
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>>76937340
>elves have wizards by the thousands and can take care of rudimentary tasks with ease, making chores that we find time consuming today trivial.
>A handful of humans occasionally make a breakthrough while the bulk of humanity is still in the middle ages.

Exceptional human mages are the exception. The heroic humans that draw interest because its unconventional.
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>manage to achieve great feats of magic
>without blowing yourself up
Stupid Netherese
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>>76937480
Humans are sons of the Vrykul, that are nerferd iron giants created by the Titans.
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>>76937949
Imaging sticking to epic magic like utter pussies. The Netherese brute forced magic beyond all reason.
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>>76938004
And exploded.
Good job.
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>>76937340
>WoW
Bruh.

Anyway, you're missing the forest for the trees. To avoid writing a fucking thesis on a concept that is pretty easy to research and grasp on your own...

>Human Wizard
Sledgehammer

>Elf Wizard
Scalpel
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>>76938004
10th level spells were easier to use because the Weave took all the strain. So when Mystra had enough of that shit, Netheril got fucked forever. Epic magic meanwhile just kept on trucking and still works the same now as then.
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>>76938625
Yes?
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>>76938625
>Epic magic meanwhile just kept on trucking and still works the same now as then
No, epic magic hasn’t been used by or near 99.9% of players. It might as well not work.
>b-but but the elves
Stopped using it
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>>76937340
I think it's a result of elf starting ages and lifespans in d&d being rather inconsistent and the need for all level 1 characters to be equally balanced. Theoretically, elves should be better at a lot of things, but that tends to get players pissy.
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>>76938625
>spell levels are a game construct
>10th level spells don't exist because a goddess said so
Why is Forgotten Realms so dumb?
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>>76940243
>>spell levels are a game construct
No, spell level and spell slots actually exist.
>10th level spells don’t exist because a goddess said so
This is the part that doesn’t make sense, nobody would worship her after taking away a vital part of humanity.
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>>76938018
>becomes the weaker race due to the curse of flesh
>proceeds to exterminate the Vry'kul on the way to Arthas anyways
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>>76940342
A lot of the surviving Netherese canonically did stop worshipping her actually, I think. They had Mystryl and didn’t like her reincarnation Mystra for ruining them, although Karsus got most of the blame because he triggered the whole thing in the first place by stupidly attempting to take godhood from the one goddess he shouldn’t have targeted.

Everybody NOT Netheril was cheering because they hated those fuckers. The elves were bitching about Netheril for centuries afterwards, so were the surviving Imaskari.

It’s a nice irony though that Mystra didn’t actually stop the spells from working any more, she instead changed how they worked to be more difficult. Had the Netherese bothered to figure out how magic had changed (many did not), things might have been different.
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>>76940583
>It’s a nice irony though that Mystra didn’t actually stop the spells from working any more, she instead changed how they worked to be more difficult. Had the Netherese bothered to figure out how magic had changed (many did not), things might have been different.

I’m pretty sure that’s not the case, can you elaborate on it working differently?
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>>76940694
Sure, it's all laid out in the old 2e book, Secrets of the Magister. Pic related. Bottom line, 10th level spells are still technically usable if people find one, it's just extremely difficult. The Magister gets one free 100% casting, but face a different consequence if they use it.

Mystra can also grant the ability to use and memorise true 10th level spells normally to certain limited wizards, although only Larloch was given that level of freedom. Not even Elminster has that privilege, Elminster is stated to know one 10th level spell but has the same limitations on casting it as anybody else.
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>>76941207
>>76940694
Forgot pic.
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>>76937372
Would you mind elaborating on what you mean about people missing the point of Tolkien's elves? I'm not disagreeing, but I'm interested to see how you think modern fantasy elves have strayed.
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If people want elves to be superior superhumans in all regards, why make them playable at all?
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>>76941564
not him, but Tolkien's elves are stewards of creation but not really the point of it
they were made immortal so they could care for it (which, in Tolkien's view doesn't mean living like savages in a cave but continuing the work of the creator within it) but they will not trascend Eä at its end, only Men will do
Elves are better than Men at everything, the average elf not being average by Men standards at all, with only exceptional Men like Boromir (or half-elves like Aragorn) being equal or superior to them, and only in a limited range of activities
In Tolkien's work the elves have had their zenith, their work is more or less done, and so they must retreat to their refuge with the Valar and let the Age of Men take part, for better or worse, since it is implied Eä (or at least Arda) is for Men
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>>76941727
Elves are not superior to humans in all regards, not even in Tolkiens works, where they had to give the heaviest dwarfen armor to a human, because they couldn't wear it.
Sometimes this is reflected in the game mechanics, sometimes it's not and only narratively, but elves usually have less wounds, less constitution or toughness or whatever the equivalent is. They are on par in lots of things with humans, mostly excelling in agility, perception and magic. Narratively they can have various flaws depending on the setting, which can be harder to grasp and portray than simple game mechanics.
The reason why OP is a dumb and as well as writers that unironically do what OP proposes is that magic tends to be one of their niches, one of their traits, something that defines them. Saying that then these average dude humans are suddenly better at magic than a race that has magic as their thing is simply a slap into their face and dumb writing. It would be dumb writing with any other race.
If you want to have humans being the magical race and focus with elves on something else, sure, go ahead, you can absolutely do that. Elezens for instance are the religious warrior race and they are great. But lots of settings have elves being very magic, it's one of their things.
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>>76941920
I see.
Another question then: If you were to do Elves differently, try and restore some hint of originality, how would you go about it?
And I don't just mean adding different garden varieties of Elf but really trying to put some sort of original spin on the very concept of them.
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>>76942397
You're going about this wrong. Why use elves if you want to deviate from the archetype? Why call them elves if they aren't? Think about the role you want the buggers to fill, and adapt them accordingly. Like what's their narrative purpose and shit. Don't be try to be original for originality's sake. Novelty is overrated.
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>>76942512
Goddamn this, I don't want to read another "my elves are horned mask wearing inuit spacefarers that speak through clicking noises" or some shit. first, learn what makes them work in the first place before trying to reinvent some shit.
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>>76942512
Its less about novelty and more about the fact that everything feels like its been done before. I struggle with this continual mental block where it feels as though everything I want to try has been done somewhere else and if I try to throw an idea out there someone will pipe up and say "Hey isn't that just copying [thing]?", even if the thing I'm allegedly copying is something I've never heard of.

That's not to say that scenario has happened, at least not in a long while, but it makes me perhaps overly cautious about what I throw into my games.
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>>76942397
this is a very important point to consider:
>>76941727
if Elves, due to their longevity, them being the frist civilization, etc... have such an advantage over humans, just have them be an NPC race

as for an """original""" (everything has probably already been done, it just has not reached the mainstream) just have your NPC elves be benevolent, advanced, and wise, but also detached from individuals (more interested in the long term) and very alien in their views (from a human point of view). humans would respect them, even try to curry favors, but would also feel a great distance between themselves and the elves
and if you want PC elves I kind of like them aging like humans normally to adulthood, but then physically remain in their 20s and 30s for the rest of their lives, never slowly wearing out as humans do but living almost the same number of years humans do. just have them be a cousin race to humans
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>>76942587
Everything has been done before. Make peace with that. Give less of a shit about what others think and focus on executing your ideas well.
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>>76942616
Something I thought about a little bit was having classical Elves as a bit of an NPC race, who are guarded and ancient and detached, and then having a more PC-oriented race of almost half-Elves which would be the 'playable' Elves, which would be based around/semi-inspired by Romani travellers, who go from place to place and put on shows for Humans and try to spread old Elven traditions and myths orally, even though they themselves have become somewhat detached from it.

The idea with the latter would be to keep the spirit of Elves as being wise and keeping ancient knowledge, but to make them colourful and warm as opposed to the serious and cold demeanour a lot of fantasy settings seem to give them.
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>>76942850
you would still have to solve the issue of "why is this 500-year-old elf adventurer the same level/has a similar amount of proficiencies as these 24-year-old humans", which I kind of don't like. even an 80 yeard old elf bard (a youth by elven standards in most settings) would need to have been twiddling her thumbs for most of her life to not be a master at her craft, so, for lower level campaigns, you are left with either elven adventurers who decided to just give their lives a 180° turn five months ago by becoming a rogue/ranger/whatever and who never ever bothered to learn any sort of cooking, brewing, crafting, speech, or other relevant abilities OR a setting in which elves are just a bunch of drooling idiots
Note, however, you can always run games where characters are at different power levels, it is just an extra thing you have to build your campaign around.
So, in conclusion: There is no need to tweak DnD/Tolkien elves unless something about them is disliked by the DM or the group.
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>>76937340
just because you are stupid and play shitty and retarded settings doesn't mean that what you wrote is true
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>>76943043
Well, the idea with the traveller elves would be that they're something of a distant offshoot of the aforementioned classical Elves.
They don't live as long, though perhaps still live long enough to be seen as long-lived by Humans (think maybe having an extra 30 to 50 years on Humans) so the gap of experience wouldn't be quite so high, hence making them available as PCs.

So say, a young traveller Elf who wants to leave her caravan to adventure on her own for a bit could be somewhat older than a Human adventurer who leaves their village to do the same, but it would still place them firmly within the same realm of experience even if those experiences are markedly different.

Longevity doesn't necessarily translate into mastery. Some people live a very long time without doing very much at all. Alternatively, an Elf who spends years hyperfocused on a single craft is going to have a very narrow field of expertise.
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>>76943242
sounds good, talk to your prospective group to bounce ideas with the people you will actually be playing
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Elves have more time on their hands.
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>>76937340
Because elves are patient and cautious. It might take an elf a century to master just the fundamentals of magic, while a human can get it in just a few years, but the elf isn't going to blow himself up during the process.
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>>76937340
Wut
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Good place as any to answer this.
>>76937340
Depends on the setting. In the Forgotten Realms magic can backfire. Whereas Elves live 700 years and study magic carefully so they don't die (or worse, turn themselves into Drow, a VERY real possibility), Humans go into a class, create a fireball, a thirdof them die but the rest cam now cast Fireball.
In Eberron magic is low but wide, so they aren't worse. In fact, some of the greatest magic houses are Elven or Half-Elven.

>>76937071
Sort of related to this thread, but answering another. If by White you mean lazy people who fan themselves, saying how awesome they are but do nothing... Yes, I hate White people.
If by White you mean people who took what they wanted through intelligence, and where that failed through steel and blood and sweat, the people who created today's world society and majority of technology? Then no. The people who started it worked hard yet it was fucked up by those lazy people born with a golden spoon in their mouths who think they're awesome yet do nothing.
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>>76942587
Everything has been done, yes. And yes, you still have to try and be original. Yes, it sucks.
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>>76937340
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>>76937784
>Are white people superior to blacks
Yes.
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>>76937340
For what I know elves are superior to men.
In everything except quantity.
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>>76940550
That's because canonically there was a giant army of hero level characters rampaging in Northrend at the time. Single vry'kul is more powerful than an average human soldier, but they can't do shit when two dozen of them rush out of the forward camp to curb stomp them.
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>>76937784
>responsible for 97% of all scientific innovation in the last millennium
>citation needed
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>>76938018
>assmongoloid
no thanks
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>>76943043
Holy shit, just play a young elf. That's it. That's the entire solution. Have the extremely powerful elves be old, having spend their time amassing that power without any dumb justification of "elves are just lazy assholes". You can have both. It's so easy, so simple.
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>>76942221
Gunna quickly toss in that as a whole even in OP’s universe Elves actually are much better at magic then men. It’s just when men get a blowout hit that man goes much higher. But it’s more a once or twice a generation thing, and it doesn’t help that one of the main characters that isn’t the Player is exactly this, and she is way Mary Sue even in universe for a lot more reasons than just being better then elves at magic. They all get completely outclassed by Blue Dragons anyway.
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this is a dumb bait thread and I feel bad for replying in it, but I think dumb bait thread are all we have left, so here we go

I like the idea of elves, being the more innately magical creatures, being generally the superior mages as they are more in tune with the weave of magic that binds (or whatever magic system equivalent)

But elves, after they taught magic to humans, actually marvel at how the gifted among the younger race can harness their force of will into spells of frightening potency (not that the elves would ever admit this)

this aligns also with how I generally like to conceptualize humans. As they are inevitably the protagonists of the setting, why not give them the archetypical (some might say cliche) protagonist qualities: Resourcefulness, determination, gumption, inner strength, all that rigmarole.

In other words, if you want to weave a subtle spell that will steal the viziers memories and replace them with new ones with such precision and elegance that he never even realizes it happened, you get an elf. But conversely if what you really want is a big enough fireball to kill the vizier and every other motherfucker in the room, you get a human.
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>>76937340
Humans are ambitious, while elves have a very long time to do as they please
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>>76943043
OSR already solved this "problem": Elves are a racial class and have the properties of fighting men AND magic users.
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>>76952950
Bumpfag please, this ambitious shit was always boring crap.
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To balance the races and avoid the implications of how OP elves were if their fundamental traits worked the same as in real life.

IRL, the longer a race lives
A. The more may be done in one lifetime
B. The more stability there's
C. The higher levels of expertise may be reached
D. The more specialized and differentiated jobs may emerge
E. The more knowledge may be imparted to new generations.

These benefits are huge and lead to virtuous cycles. Think of this way: if a people's men die before their 30s in most cases, then they're roughly capped at around 30 years for the most of what they can do. They will be stuck and stagnating at a low, almost animal level of survival until some source of buildup emerges (if ever) to break past this limiter and transform them.

Retaining information across generations means you stack knowledge, training, expertise, and the degree to which labor may divide. This means instead of having men who have to learn to hunt (and do nothing but hunt) every generation endlessly, you have what took masters decades to learn distilled to children in years, making an entire generation's population more and more capable across generations.

As lower needs are taken care of and excess wealth is generated, men may labor in more and more precise niches.

Now apply these principles to elves. If they were akin to humans but live 10x as long on average (1,000 year elves as an example) then their civilizations would surpass anything any other race could even conceive, let alone hope to accomplish. They would conquer all the younger-lived races and rule over them or eliminate them.

They would not just be the best at magic. They would be the best at everything including technology and other features usually given to dwarves to make them relevant.

In short, life's not a videogame where good features are equally divided among everyone. One good trait (like longevity) accrues additional good traits in a positive feedback loop.
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>>76949360
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>>76948898
Basically this.
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>>76937340
The difference is that elves can afford to take their time.
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>>76937340
>Are elves just too slow/retarded?
Elves inevitably get laid before they hit the equivalent of 30 human years
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>>76957627
(that's about 266 years in, imagine looking like a high elf and not getting laid in 266 years)
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>>76957627
>>76957720
Elves can't coom more than once every three years, did you know?
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>>76957740
>tfw 8-month refractory period
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>>76957740
That's in their favor, makes them immune to the temptations that drive humans to wizardhood.



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