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>DM has unwinnable fight
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You probably deserved it, player scum
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>Dm has unwinnable fight
>says afterwards it was to make sure we knew that some fights were unwinnable
>tells us to make new characters
>was session 2
fuck that guy.
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>>76079175
> faggot posts on 4chan
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>>76079175
Just retreat bro. Not every fight you pick is going to be ""balanced""
>inb4 the enemy will just chase you
That's why you leave some hirelings to hold the line
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>>76079175
Not everything is accomplishable. Even Alexander the Great and Napoleon had things they could not overcome, and Beowulf got himself fucking killed finishing his dragon.
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>>76079175
>DM wants everyone to reroll
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>>76079264
No fight should be unwinnable. More luck then not or a simple matter of playing above and beyond, sure. Even after a point where it's mechanically unlikely, you should always be able to pull that one in a million set of rolls and win
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>>76079332
Three lvl 2s and we find out the guy was the DM's lvl 20 mage that wanted to kill us for some reason. He just negated our damage and one shot each of us.
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>>76079175
My DM did this to us last session. I cast Hold Person on him and he failed all the saves (My DC was 15, the enemy had a +6 to wis save) for 3 turns in a row. Paladin used all his spellslots to crit smite 3 times. We won the unwinnable fight. DM said he was impressed and told us that that guy has a magic item on him and a note that explains who he is, both of which will be revealed next session.
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>>76079175
>Have you tried not playing D&D
But seriously, was this the DM intending to do some kinda specific scene, exp; Run Away. Was he trying to force his personal narrative conclusion? Impossible fights are sometimes a thing, I have an "open world" so if my players go into the angry Dragon God's cave and stomp his eggs, it ain't gonna be a fair fight. Might be statistically impossible, often they don't even have a plan.
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>>76079365
This is a bad DM
>>76079332
This is also a bad DM.

The world existed without the player's involvement. Some things are beyond them. The Ancient Dragon in a cave is there whether the players are level 1 or 20. If the players pursue slaying a dragon and choose to fight him, he's not going to suddenly be easier because they fought him at level 5. He's got a reputation and the players will be fairly warned before setting off on a goal that is beyond their skills, but if they choose to ignore those warnings, its their choice.

But "hurdur I've deliberately set up an encounter, in your path, on the plot hooks I've left for you, that you cannot handle" is also bad DMing. The world might exist outside the PCs scope, but the trials that are brought to them will be roughly within their scope of dealing with.

Think of it like level scaling, vs having scaled "Quests" with an unscaled world. Level scaling is boring, because you know you can handle everything forever, regardless of what you do. Having scaled encounters, with an unscaled world, lets you know that if you follow a plot line you found out about, you can be reasonably certain that you can handle it, even if it might be difficult, but the world at large doesn't necessarily play by those rules.
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>>76079332
"You could have won if the party exclusively rolled natty 20s and the enemies exclusively rolled natty 1s" is a worthless suggestion. TTRPGs aren't video games you can savescum through.
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>>76079491
damn, an actual sensible post on /tg/? I must be dreaming
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>>76079491
This is how I basically see it as well. For everyone else, here's the checklist I go through when coming up with an encounter.
Is it winnable?
If not, can you escape?
If not, was there ample warning that you missed?
The last one is very important. Let's say some 1st level party decides to chimp out and head into an adult dragon's lair. They don't stand a chance against them, they can't hide from it, and it can fly far faster than they can run. They are going to die. But, they also decided to continue into the cave after I described the bones littering the entrance, the massive claw marks on the ground, and the heat emanating from down the tunnel. Being aware of all that and continuing, they chose to die.
Only when the party is ambushed without warning by an overwhelming foe would I say a GM is trying to kill their players.
Except when the retired adventurer kills the retarded murderhobo trying to rob his corner store, that trope is based and needs to stay to weed out edgelord retards.
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>it's the dmpc
>he just wanted to show how much more special his dmpc is than your characters
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>>76079175
>DM has unwinnable fight
>Tell everyone it's winnable
>Adjust bosses as needed to show that "if they were a little bit more lucky they would win"
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Was it practically unwinnable.. yes’ most likely,
Theoretically anything is possible, many years of gaming have taught me that.
When presented with a superior force.. you’ chose to engage, and when things started to turn from bad to shit creek you’ still chose to stay and fight, when you could of ran or done plenty of interesting things.
I think it was perfectly reasonable I didn’t use any bullshit to bail you out
They consequences of defeat can be just as interesting as the consequences of victory, and frankly.. I think you will just have to live with them
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>>76079175
>players go fight the monster that is definitely and visibly too strong for them
>don't even take some prep time to come up with a clever plan or trap
>complain when the monster that's capable of tearing off their heads does just that
there's plenty of level-appropriate stuff they can do instead but they assume that if they see something, they can kill it. which is not wrong, since all but the most mighty creatures can be killed with a clever plot. it's just that only the strong can afford to fight without thinking, and the players are rarely as strong as that
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>>76080599
Was it really a level 20 Wizard that you threw at them?
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If you consider every encounter to be a 'fight' which you should be able to beat and complain when it isn't, then your brain has been fucked by D&D and/or video games.
If the GM genuinely just dropped a TPK hostile on you without warning or any way to negotiate or escape, then he's a fucking terrible GM, but I seriously doubt that happened.
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>>76079175
You were supposed to surrender, retard
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>>76079175
Here you take this 9mm and go attack a major American military base. Tell me if you can win.
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>>76080733
Last time It was 25 men at arms in mail 15 with pikes and halberds the rest with bows three riding drakes and one cleric and a magic user
The party were only 3rd level at most and only had twelve current hirelings who were suffering from low spirits
I made Signals more than four times that black company mercenaries aren’t to be trifled with lightly
But they still chose to intervene with violence and then refused to retreated because of their attachments
The mercs also cut out the tongue and brand everyone they defeat in battle which when paired with the random critical injury table did leave for some very interesting characters among those that survived
Players were assblasted mad that all their loot was taken and their surviving characters were left maimed even though several characters had often gotten maimed in previous combats
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>>76081024
Wow you're really cool and that was super interesting dark and gritty and violent and super slick and neato. Did the local lord hire the cool mercenaries to help him and his men at arms scouts beat up all the level 3 players?
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>>76081050
No and the players deliberately tried to attack them while they were pillaging a now half abandoned village, when they were on a return trip from a large dungeon
There had already been a large degree of foreshadowing leading up to this point
I think I may of been a bit too harsh at that time but I promised not to pull my punches and let the dice fall as they may and it served as good motivation for their new and remaining characters
System was ad&dc mixed with various osr products
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>>76081024
See, that's a believable encounter and, depending on the levels of the mercenaries, one the players could have if not won, than at least put to a draw. Instead of fighting they could have just angered the mercs and led them on a merry chase making riders either try and catch the party or stick with the armoured soldiers who couldn't move as fast and as long. Of course if the party members were not retards.

And there are a lot of things you can do to a bunch of armoured soldiers in wilderness. Maybe not kill them all but at least fuck them over.
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>>76079175
That depends heavily on the context. If you picked a fight with something well outside your weight class and died, that's on you for being a retard.
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>>76081024
>I made Signals more than four times that black company mercenaries aren’t to be trifled with lightly
>black company
Oh boy.
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>>76081343
>oh boy
?
whats wrong with black company
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>>76081343
>>76081547
What can you say, I like to borrow from the Classics’
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>>76079175
>players went out of their way to pick it...
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>>76079384
If your DM's fight could be beaten by three failed saves it was far from unwinnable, retard.
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>>76079264
Pen and paper rpgs are not vidya. Your DM was right.
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>>76079175
Could be worse could be:
>unwinnable, unavoidable, unskippable and unescapable. Pretty much a cutscene
Sole purpose to kill at least 2 PCs to make the game "funnier". I bet he still wonders when we don't called him ever again or why we skip his calls and avoid him on the LGS.
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>>76080968
We did, he even told us he would think about letting us go if we dropped our pants and danced. Monster just nuked us in the pit he created so we couldn't escape
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>GM wants us to roll stats
>Try to make an argument that rolled stats is unbalanced and probably will make some people roll higher than others
>GM doesn't care
>Ok, I roll and I get 17>15>15>13>13>13
>Pick default human with +1 to everything and pick paladin
>GM is literally enraged that I got such good stats (even though I literally told him chances would be that someone would roll great)
>Literally kills me 5 min in with 10 bandits focus firing me on surprise round
Funny thing is rest of the table stood up with me and we all left, and some of them were very good friends with the GM. I should call them and make a game for them if only just for sticking with me
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>>76079175
>You can come back around and win it next time
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>>76079175
> The players expect to win every fight they pick
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Why should any fight be fair? You should get into a fight ONLY if you know you are going to win.
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>>76079175
Is not unwinnable, but you know damn well is beyond your current level. No fight is undefeatable and I left my players get inventive to face challenges, and on more than one occasion they have won by sheer invention.
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>>76083261
You not always choose fights in these games, in fact you rarely choose fights in these games. Random encounters are actually a think as you're walking and boom, suddenly surrounded.

Also some games have a horrendous withdraw system (Anima BF comes to mind) in where fleeing is pretty much death sentence so you might as well stay and fight to the bitter end.
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In my experience of GM'ing and playing alike, players usually only go to an inevitable doom when there is a miscommunication of the threat. Certainly, creatures/enemies you can't beat YET exist. At level five you realistically aren't out-dueling the great demon pirate lord Xi'Le and his hundred demon servants or whatever the hell, but someday... yeah, you may be able to stop him and his evil if you buld alliances, get experience, get gear, plan, and roll well! A peasant isn't fighting Aku, Luke would have gotten his ass beat by Vader in A New Hope, Harry isn't beating Book 7 Voldemort at the age of 10, Link probably won't beat ganondorf at the start of the game without being some speedrun and you probably aren't beating Dagoth Ur at level one without abusing the game's mechanics or save scumming.

That's all okay. You build up to the big threats. But the players have to have an understanding that it's a big fight. An elephant isn't something you are going to punch to death or try to stab with a pocket knife--that's articulated to you by it's sheer size and power, the rumbling and trumpeting. With a TTRPG where it's theater of the mind and drawings/tokens, you can't take for granted the importance of imagery.

>>76079491
>>76080246
These anons right here have it right with the dragon. If the level 5 party walks in to a cave that they've been warned is unusually dangerous and they see the charred remains of knights and wizards who were probably about as well equipped as they are, and they feel that the mouth of the cave is about 5C warmer than the outside area of the cave (such is the dragon's power), and they see claws and the rolling smoke, and they STILL choose to go on, at some point they are actively killing themselves or playing GM chicken where they think you won't kill them for being stupid. Frodo and Sam did not simply walk into Mordor through the orc army. Why? Because they knew it was too dangerous to do so.

You have to communicate whats in the world
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>>76083305
I'll expand though, that even an overwhelming fight need not be unwinnable. Not every fight has to come down to sword and board, there are plenty of options to win in other ways. Perhaps you've spent all this time gathering ingredients for a particular potion or poison the animal loathes or is vulnerable to, or maybe you have a few kegs of gunpowder to just collapse a lake into a cave or something. With a little creative thought and proper planning you can really even the odds in many situations, especially if the monster is in a static place and you have pretty much all the time in the world to figure out HOW to do it and gather the resources. I've seen giants and such felled by much weaker PCs because they tricked them into a tight spot where their size was an impediment, not a benefit.

The environment is a factor as much as the PCs and monsters
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>>76083295
In D&D after some time we always had a scout type character who would run around the party on march so that we can have an early warning.
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>>76079264
Based, except he should not have told you. Establishing dominance early on is important.
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>>76079175
Do you mean putting you up against endgame shit or a Tucker's Kobolds situation where the trash mobs are placed in such a tactical advantage that they can kick your ass regardless of their stats?
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>>76083377
I love that concept, the vanguard, the scout, infiltrating enemy lines to gather information, sadly never could play one wihtout the GM killing me in advance
>well, it's your fould for not being with the party
Last time I played something like that was actually in 5e with a monk, using my speed stealth and perception. GM threw a suprise trex into my direction who pretty much left me like at 5% my HPs after I tried to stun it 3 times. Never more, I'm done with that concept.
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>>76083295
>imagine not preparing yourself to brave the adventure
>imagine not asking about what kind of creatures one might encounter in the surrounding areas from local npc's
>imagine just running along like headless chickens
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>>76083416
Except people don't always know what lies ahead (don't ask me ask the APs I played) beyond vague information and sometimes misleading as fuck (like the time they literally described a white dragon and turned to be a blue one in an AP).
Except you can prepare so far, holy water does actual crap against undead, same as alchemical fire, oil, nets, etc.
And because in a surprise turn they act first and you just have to wait and see if you're still alive or unaffected by their spells/supernatural powers when your turn comes.
This is not a videogame in where you can read guides or see what the magic store has and extrapolate what enemies are you going to face depending on what they sell.

And again, see Anima BF in where bing hit means you lose your turn, sometimes withdrawing is anything but trivial. Surrendering can be an option, depending on the GM though.

I'm not saying it's always impossible, but people acting like not dying in a game is the easiest thing since eating bread only proves they either dont play or have their GMs using kiddy gloves.
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>>76079175
Some GMs are dicks, but often, the problem is the players inability to grasp the obvious.
I runned a DnD campaign themed after old console rpgs, with element themed dungeons, stuff from secret of mana and other stuff.
After 1 month of campaign and having conquered 2 of these dungeons, they reach the 3rd, the Temple of life, an animal/plant themed one. In a room, there’s a titanic plant monster, asleep. The thing is the size of a modern building and one of the main objectives is to leave it alone and seal it, as the hieroglyphs on the walls show. It was sealed because it was basically the incarnation of nature’s wrath against mankind for desecrating holy groves, killing sacred guardians and other sins. The people of these ancient times built the temple to imprison it and conduct atonement rituals and honor the goddess.
And what these fuckers do ? They deliberately ignore all the clues, attack the titan. For 1 round, they go full dps and i explicitly tells them, like after each attack, that they feel their blows do nothing. 2nd round, the titan is now awake, gets hit again without much consequences and hit a player, leaving him with a handful of hp. I describe the creature as slow and unable to run. It took 2 deaths for these morons to reconsider and retreat, and after, the players threw a tantrum because i was a bad dm and the fight was unfair.
Reality is that they were morons playing murderhobos.
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Imo withdrawing should always be an option, and I make very clear in my games that this option is always open at the earlies steps of the encounter but fades away the more they stay in an obviously unwinnable fight
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>>76083400
Well we were playing 3.5 and it's much easier to optimise for the role there. Shit like Swift Hunter or Factotums. You need decent speed, stealth and perception. There are some familiars and similar abilities that also work pretty good. Hell, you can even go with barbarian if you get 50+ft speed.
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>>76083533
>the size of a modern building
I refuse to believe anyone who see something like that feels as first instinct "yeah, I should attack it". What level where these mothefuckers to think they had a chance? Did you imply in your game that this was some epic Platinium games style ttrpg? I mean if you were playing Shadow of Godzilla the game I completely understand it, but if you were playing your average DnD style one? that's insane

Just an example on a game I'm in. There's this assassin that completely caught us by surprise once and knocked out all the PCs in literaly 2 turns, 2 players couldn't even act, luckily he only wanted to interrogate us so they kept us alive and tortured us, later we escaped. Anyway our monk later found said assassin who likes to disguise himself but the player, without even rolling though the roll confirmed his suspicions, realized it was him and attacked him pretty much without any word. He caught him by surprise, there were like 1 turn of exchange and both seemed pretty hurt, the monk player realized that lacking surprise anymore he had almost no chance so he rolled acrobatics to avoid AoO and then acrobatics again to jump into the nearest roof (he has acrobatics over the roof, pun intended, to the point jumping something like 8 meters tall is just average for him) to put impossible distance between him and the assasin. He did it perfectly, realized he couldn't win and fleed, the GM was unironically surprised that he did that (in fact later told us he could have won with just one more decent hit) but the player didn't want to risk it as he was also just once sneak attack from falling unconscious. This also make the assassin gain some respect on the monk
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>>76083587
Played a scout/ranger swift hunter once, died twice (and reincarnated without my permission twice too) before reaching 3rd level both for trying to be the scout and the master targeting me exclusively because otherwise would mean targeting his best friend instead. I in fact had maxed stealth and perception and even had bonus from feats to them (something like a +8/+9 on both). Never had luck with that concept, seems like most DMs hate the dude who stealthly goes ahead to gather information.
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>>76083631
>I refuse to believe anyone who see something like that feels as first instinct "yeah, I should attack it"
not the guy you're replying to but it's just plain metagaming. "if there is something we can fight, we should have a chance or else why would the gm put it there". I have a similar problem with my player, but on a smaller scale and mostly when it comes to the plot. I talked with them about it, they even signaled me that they understood, but continued anyways. I'm tired of their bullshit and now I'm just waiting for a reasonable excuse to fuck them over so they learn.
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>>76083042
and then everybody clapped
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>>76079491
Cheers, tip of fedora, pat on ass, etc. Good poast
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>>76083295
>You don't choose your fights
Wait a minute. I thought this was a roleplaying game. You are making decisions about what your character does and not just passively sitting along for the ride, right?
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>>76083734
When you go to a place most of the time you don't choose what's going to happen in the way or once you reach there. Unless you're a murderhobo and target anyone you want.
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>>76083757
If you choose to go from A to B anything that happens in A, B and inbetween is on you, retard.
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>>76083631
They were level 13 and yes, they were stupid. Not only stupid but incredibly entitled. they knew that i homebrew rules and monsters a lot, that i make everything as rp friendly possible, and the less meta possible. For example, the feat combat reflexes, when used by an hydra, allows it to take only one attack of opportunity, but with every single head, on the same target, making it a dangerous beast. An orca can and will swallow a gnome or halfling if it can catch one wandering on the beach where they hunt. Etc. And yet i am a very lenient DM, always giving hints, but i want a minimum of challenge and all fights and encounters require a minimum of strategy. If i tell «it’s a freaking titan» it’s fucking obvious you’re not supposed to attack it. Seriously. I no longer play with them fortunately, because it went even worse after that.
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>GM has an unwinnable endboss because the PCs were cunts to every faction they met and none of them lended support when it rose out of the ground
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>>76083682
+8-9 is kinda low in 3.5. That's like what you have on 1st level without real optimisation 4 ranks, +3-5 from a stat and maybe something from a feat. +15 is something more like what you want. Also you can't really be swift hunter until level 6 so you didn't really have all your tools in place.

Yeah, many inexperienced GMs or those who don't like to improvise will hate stealth.
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>>76083821
>Max ranks
>+3 from stat
>+2 from feat
>"low"
I couldn't literally put anymore there even if I wanted.
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>>76083757
>Have a scout
>Get a map
>Learn about the area asking around
>Travel with a bigger party like a caravan
Are you stupid?
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>>76083869
We have a caravan with 8 carts, 6 scouts, maps, and 20 men party in Jade Regent AP, still misleading information or literally no information.
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>>76083843
Dude, just have magic items above your wealth per level and roll a 20 in Dex, is like you don't want to win or something
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>>76079491
how about fights where the goal isnt to win but is instead to survive a number of turns?

like, the enemy is more than capable of killing the party in 5 turns, might drop 2/3 of the party on turn 3, but the party only has to survive until turn 4
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Well, that depends on how the players react. Our DM originally set up a siege where we were supposed to loose and retreat and see a village burn but instead we set up a kill box with the cannon from our pirate ship, spiked pits, and a choke point and won against a giant with this tactic at lv 4. Town was saved and we were all heroes. But we all left pretty hurt
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>>76079175
There is a lot of different reasons for a fight to be unwinnable.

Did your party have its ass kicked, and then push on without at least a short rest? If a fight would be winnable with your HP topped off and the party had the means to do it that is on you guys, not the DM.

Have your spellcaster waste shit when they did not need to and now their down to cantrips? Honestly that is on them, not the DM.

DM has a fight that if started is unwinnable but you can go around it? That is on the PC if they poke the adult red dragon with a fucking stick rather then taking the long way around. Now if there was no way around the over CR monster that is on the DM.
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>>76083305
>That's all okay. You build up to the big threats. But the players have to have an understanding that it's a big fight. An elephant isn't something you are going to punch to death or try to stab with a pocket knife--that's articulated to you by it's sheer size and power, the rumbling and trumpeting. With a TTRPG where it's theater of the mind and drawings/tokens, you can't take for granted the importance of imagery.
This is particularly important because many systems/settings already break from real-world assumptions about danger and appearances to some degree on a regular basis - players can underestimate the threat of this particular big scary monster when they're regularly hunting down and killing other big beasts that are feared by the average man but manageable to them, winning fights where they're outnumbered, and accomplishing other similar feats the average party in a more heroic fantasy style system get up to that realistic assumptions would tell us is impossible. Meanwhile, in a harsher and more lethal system, they might not realise that some monsters just don't go down as easily as the usual things they deal with - in a system where one or two good hits can down most of their enemies, a monster in a cave that requires more killing power than they can put out or ignores some major aspect of their usual strategy can take players by surprise.
Loads of settings can be really unclear about what's dangerous and what isn't at a quick glance, particularly if the players aren't familiar with the ins and outs of many monsters, and especially in settings like the stereotypical D&D one where a guy confronting you with magic could be a shitter with a few low-level spells who's playing themselves up or an incredibly powerful mage that can obliterate the party with a single spell, or anywhere in between (let alone high-level mundanes who don't even have the easy out of showing off a powerful spell and being.
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>>76083811
>They were level 13
I can kind of understand it. I don't know about 5e or whatever version you're playing, but back when I used to play D&D 3.5, CR 13 was getting into the point where Huge or even Gargantuan monsters were level-appropriate encounters, and past a certain point I think a lot of people stop paying attention to the details of size - when a Huge creature can be a lot less dangerous than a Large one that has more dangerous abilities, you've already killed some big monsters, and you're playing a system that doesn't usually really make size a big deal, the GM describing how big something is doesn't trigger the warning signs he might expect.
Still not a smart move by any standard, and still a sign of someone thinking a bit too much about the standard expectations, but a move I can somewhat understand.
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Even allowing for unwinable encounters there's got to be a point at which the DM overrides the PCs from doing something incredibly stupid. A "no you don't" when they try to do something spontaneous that will doom the entire party. If they've been gunning for it despite your warnings let them fail but have some safeguards in place. You don't WANT them to feel bitter.
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>>76079175
>>DM has unwinnable fight
If you started the fight its your action take responsebilty
If DM made you fight somthing you cant win against then your DM is shit

But as always in ttrpg IT FUCKING DEPENDS
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>>76083533
I don't suppose you have a map of the temple and it's details written down in a doc? And that titan plant statted out? This sounds absolutely perfect for what I want to throw at my players next.
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>>76083898
Nah. +4 Rank, +2 Feat, +3 Stat, +4 size, +2 masterwork camouflage cape/silent boots (should be affordable by level 3, though you will have 6 ranks by this point so +17 total). If master doesn't allow masterwork tools the bonus will cost you 300 gp instead through enchantment. Add camouflage netting to hide without cover and smokesticks to break line of sight in case opponents found you - should also be affordable by level 3.
If you really want you could also add Skill Focus Hide.

By level 6 you should be able to afford at least one +5 skill magic item - prioritise Hide.

If GM allows traits take Quick.
Of course there is also the infamous Dark Creature template, but we don't talk about it.
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>>76079491
Slight disagreement here, in that Unwinnable Fights set up deliberately can work, and as a GM I've done them before, but the way they work is as set pieces designed for entertainment value. If the fight is just NPC one shots the party, then that's no fun, but if the party struggles and struggles, getting a chance to realize this enemy is beyond them, and manages to just barely escape with their lives.

That's ideally how you play it. Like BBEG meets PCs during second session, and toys with them kinda game. Then that can set up all sorts of fun plot hooks, like personal vendettas against BBEG, or introducing a good NPC that saves the party, or many other things. Unwinnable fights work to show the players the level of power they can expect when they reach the apex of power possible in what ever setting you're working in.
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>>76079175
Just reload your last save zoomer.
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>>76079175
>DM forces you to play out an encounter you can't lose
Those make me even more mad, being forced to roll encounters you have zero chance of losing, what is the point? They're just trash mobs that you can summarize as 'you spend time hunting down goblins, roll to see if you got wounded, loot and how many goblins you slayed'. A lot of new GMs do not understand that you can montage low-risk encounters, but that’s because high level groups are uncommon and they often just play high level as low level adventures with loads of stuff fighting bigger monsters.

Unwinnable 'fight' doesn't mean you can't survive the encounter though, or maybe you get lucky; beating the odds is where all the glory is after all. My group would have never beat Cthulhu if they played it safe at level 20. They all died but the barbarian, who was just too angry to die and too dumb to mind control, who ended up slaying Cthulhu with a final crit right before he teleported. It was a glorious end to a 1-20 Primeval Thule campaign.
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>>76085659
Sounds like it’s time to pull up hobgoblins and actually plan for a cave
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>>76085699
I would design a high level goblin cave as a raid where there's hundreds of goblins cultists that never flee supported by hobgoblins casters buffing them, then have magical deathtraps everywhere so they better find a map/interrogate/figure out the pattern to get around the cave. I would hope the adventuring party would bring some lackeys and hirelings to at least guard their camp/flank, maybe a few dozen goats to do a vibe check.
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>>76079175
I will often put escape sections in a game where the goal is to evade a large number of enemies.
These fights are unwinnable because there is an arbitrary number of opponents and they will infinitely spawn as long as PCs remain in the area. The encounter is strategically winnable because the PCs' objective is to escape and the opponents' objective is to stop them. The PCs win if they accomplish their objective and the enemy does not.
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>>76086209
The most memorable encounters always start with

>You awaken the old god from it's slumber and you hear the shouting of thousands of his minions as they advance on your position; what do you do?
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>>76083698
How do you know he's American?
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>>76086372
I masturbate furiously while thinking of little girls
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>>76079175
You are not entitled to victory.
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>>76079175
>To dream the impossible dream
>To fight the unbeatable foe
>To bear with unbearable sorrow
>To run where the brave dare not go

https://youtu.be/JjI7VeIA7ZI
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>>76079175
It was my second DnD session. I was playing CoS and I was in the Coffin Shop. After making the oldman sleep I went upstairs too search for something that our party was after. I went to a room and the DM said I heard something coming from a coffin and that the room felt chilly. When I was about to say I would try to check using Mage Hand the DM told me to roll perception. I failed and got killed by twenty vampiric spawns. Is that how things are supposed to go in D&D or I just got unlucky?
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>>76087635
Vampires are notoriously cunty and paranoid due to having a large amount of critical weaknesses. The last time I got to deal with them our party just fucking burned everything to the ground and then entered what was left of the hideout to finish off the survivors. And there were survivors.

The last time I GMed a vamp he ambushed the party in a tavern with rat swarms and mind controlled townspeople with crossbows who set the tavern on fire. On the first day of party entering the town.
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>>76087702
>Vampires are notoriously cunty
I read that as 'cunny' and don't regret anything.
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>>76079317
Cuck.
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>>76079175
If the fight is unwinnable AND there is no viable way to avoid it or escape, then that is bullshit from the GM. If the fight is unwinnable and the PLAYERS insisted on the fight, then that is likely their fault. A good GM will not encourage an unwinnable fight unless there is a recoverable outcome for failure, like capture or something.
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>>76079175
Eh. Depends on how you use it. In a Dark Times Star Wars game, the players managed to be sneaking into the Jedi Temple the same time Jocasta Nu was.

They opted to run from Vader. They could've fought him, I gave him stats and everything. It probably wouldn't have been pretty if they tried to fight him, but I wouldn't have fudged rolls of they pulled it off.
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>>76087635
either you or your DM messed up. if your DM didn't give you any clues that something was amiss before the 20 vampires ganked you then it's his fault. if he did give you clues but you were too oblivious or dumb to do something about it, then it's your fault.
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>>76087635
That's certiaily not the norm for most 5e D&D but Chris Perkins felt like being a bit of a cunt and made Curse of Strahd pretty mean spirited in some places like that because... horror? . I honestly don't know why its one of the most critically praised 5e adventures.
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>>76087635
>hears a noise in a room full of coffins
>in Curse of Strahd
>solo investigates anyway
>at first level
Darwinism in action.
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>>76079175
That's totally fine, as long as escape is possible.
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All of these threads are the result of the GM having no control of their game, instead letting the rules dictate the flow.
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>>76079175
If you should've escaped and fought back later, you should have done that.

Not every fight is worth having.
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>>76081243
This. Also OSR/AD&D early on is about finding the way to bend the situation to your whim via abilities and tactics.

I'm betting had they pulled some guerilla warfare/traps and ewok tier shit like setting up ambushes and whittling them down GM might've let them have a chance at winning, but I take it that's not what they did, was it >>76081024 ?
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>>76086372
Ask for a job, obviously. Every old god needs sinister cultists.
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>>76080599
based. if you abandon a setting after you lose one party of characters you aren't good enough a player to enjoy fantasy for what it is. Create a new set of characters and experience the fallout in your setting after the previous parties defeat.
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>win anyway
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>>76079175
There is such thing called "retreat", it is pretty neat, you get to live for example!
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>>76079175
>Players only ever approach encounters with violence
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>>76084196
Not that guy, but wouldn't that still be technically "winnable" in the sense that you accomplished what you needed to do? Like if you survive until turn 4, and the encounter is then resolved favorably to some degree, it sounds like you've won to me.

Of course, I'm always a player, and thus don't know a GM's perspective on the matter. Maybe I'm just used to harsh beatings that me and my partners survive through nonetheless.
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>>76079175
>folks, some fights are unwinnable, you just have to retreat
>yes I understand that the enemies have 60 ft. moving speed and at-will teleportation and there are ten of them
>yes the fight is explicitly taking place on a charred, empty plain with no cover and perfect visibility
>yes the first thing they did is no-save explode all of your mounts
>yes i banned all teleportation abilities, wizards and sorceries
>yes those folks are immune to charm and also are automatons so convincing doesn't work
>but u know i'm just running a relastic campaign sometimes you just get killed randomly should've made contingencies



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