Can we talk about Mutants and Masterminds, /tg/? I've not had too much experience with the system, nor have I heard much about it, but a friend is getting a game together, and I've built a teleporter and I am super hyped to play. I'm the kind of autist who likes talking about mechanics and character optimization, but I'm also interested to hear any stories you guys might have to share.
Bumping, because I kinda want to see if this system is any good before I look into learning it.
>>73478807I tried to build some shit in it but it seems like one of those systems where somebody else has to help you build your character because the editing is trash and it's impossible to find the option on your own. I eventually found everything but it was a hassle. Haven't even looked at combat yet. I honestly have no idea why M&M is the default supers game when supposedly cleaner games exist.
>>73479984I prefer 2e.I find it very adaptable to many genresHeroscape has a nice character builder for 2e and 3e.
>>73479984You can always try Hero System.
>>73478807I wish there were rules for Hit Points instead of that nickel-and-dime Toughness mechanic they use.
>>73478807It's health system is pretty broke, as >>73481497 stated.For example, take a 0 toughness average joe and have them take a 30 foot fall.That's supposed to be 4 damage, which is a DC of 19.Let's say average joe rolls a 10 on their d20 to resist. At 9 under they failed by two margins (0 = fail for one degree, then a whole 5 past that for two degrees)...The average joe with zero toughness is just dazed......After a 30ft fall?Dazed isn't even much of a penalty, it's a limit of a free action and a single standard action per turn and if the character wishes to move they can use their standard action for it.Damage in the system needs an overhaul for those who don't have any abilities like toughness or protection powers.
It's very very wiffy, and the affliction power, while making sense to take for flavor is nearly useless.
>>73482339Makes sense, it's comic book bullshit after all right?
>>73478807Played and GMd several good games. Character building isn't bad once you figure it out. Finding rules in the core book is rough. Friend ran a Dragonball style game once with this system. Went well.
>>73483175Yes, now imagine if you face an enemy who is super tough or has a force field or metal skin or what-have you. Anything that makes them a little resistant to damage.It makes combat last for ages... You may get a good roll and ding them a little. Just need 20 more attacks like that one and they go down... Or they resist the damage you did entirely and no-sell your attack.Adding in dodging ability to that villian and you have to get a hit on them first, then hope your damage gets through.Superheroes and Villians should clash like titans, not throw sponges and hope eventually the chip damage knocks them out by session's end...
>>73482339An average joe is a minion. A minion who fails a toughness test to any degree is automatically incapacitated, as minions always take the maximum result of whatever effect they've been hit by, whether they blow a toughness, fort, or will save.An average joe who gets to make proper toughness saves/will saves/fort saves is by definition not an average joe.
>>73478807Very good generic system. HERO is better, but less supported by modern peripherals. I've used it to run degenerate weebshit, heroic fantasy, and standard capes. It's a game that very strongly benefits from the GM laying out the setting, what's allowed, what's not allowed, and working with you throughout character creation so that nothing gets too retarded; for example in the Spirit Detective-based game I that ran for 14 sessions, at character creation I capped strength to 5 and movement powers to 4. Why did I cap strength to 5? Solely so that we had set powerlevels - at the start of the campaign, fighting someone who could throw cars was impressive. By endgame, people were knocking buildings down, because I wanted to simulate the power creep that comes with shonenshit. And I capped movement to 4 initially because movement powers give me headaches. And we had a grand old shonenshit time.
>>73479984Second edition is far better for that, because instead of buying effects, you buy powers, and possible additions or expansions to those powers are listed with them for the most part. For third, check out Power Profiles, it has a ton of powers built to fit specific themes and gives you an idea how building your abilities works.
>>73483777>Superheroes and [Villains] should clash like titansWhich means having the endurance of titans. Damage is relative, anon. What cuts through butter barely scratches steel.
>>73483777>Yes, now imagine if you face an enemy who is super tough or has a force field or metal skin or what-have you. Anything that makes them a little resistant to damage.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC0-rxyI3ik
>>73482339>The average joe with zero toughness is just dazed...No, they also have a -1 penalty on further saves until they're healed, representing their injury. And as the other anon said, a minion who fails a Toughness save is downed instantly.
>>73478807It's one of my core systems along with Savage Worlds and my own homebrew. I've used it for Metal Gear Solid/Rising, OWoD/NWoD/Scion, the Big O, Ace Combat, Armored Core, Halo, and more.
>>73483777You did not read the damage section at all, I see. Every failed save imposes a cumulative penalty, the longer a fight goes on the easier someone becomes to hurt as their injuries stack up.
>>73484509>Armored CoreI've been constructing a bunch of material to run a Gundam based campaign for a pair of my friends with one as the pilot and the other as the captain of their ship. How did your Armored Core game go?
I like that the problem you face as an optimizer in M&M isn't how good you can be at X, but rather what's the most cost effective way to do X and also everything else you. It's a double edged sword because it works best when you have a specific character idea you're building to, but the mechanical support falls firmly into the realm of "close enough". You can't really do gritty details without quite a few house rules. Since it's a point buy system, everything is on the table, so you've got to get together with the group and decide on what the appropriate level of bullshit is. Sure you can build something degenerate that functionally damages every enemy automatically as soon as they get within a mile of you, but any DM that sees that build will just laugh and veto it on the spot.
>>73484685>Sure you can build something degenerate that functionally damages every enemy automatically as soon as they get within a mile of youThat sounds like a villain ability anyway
>>73484526>How did your Armored Core game go?Pretty well, actually. Hexcrawl focused around capturing territory and key sites from other five man teams. I face lifted all components from AC:V and converted them, then built everything they wanted for personal level stuff. Also scaled some of the more mundane air and ground vehicles to make them more threatening. Pilot information was abbreviated when possible so it could fit onto a 5" x 8" index card, while vehicle pieces, weapons, personal armor pieces, cybernetics, and so on were individual 2.5" x 3" index cards. I borrowed a lot of material I'd already converted for my Ace Combat, Halo, and MG:S/R games and just filed the serial numbers off again. Allowed people to bring anything from 28mm to 30mm for pilot level stuff, as long as it looked good and was based with round 30mm. For vehicle scale we combed through Mobile Frame Zero builds and built those.The index cards helped speed play considerably.
>>73484844The index card thing is a great idea. One of my players is system-illiterate so I figured that I would just give that player a bunch of colour-coded cards denoting various "powers" (in this case the ship's systems and weapons and whatnot).
>>73484889Item/unit cards are a great tool, along with AoE and LoS templates, status tokens, dice for tracking ammo or other consumables, and so on.If you want combat to run faster, take tips from wargamers, and even try running your players through skirmish games to build that mentality.
I always hear 2e vs 3e in these threads but I never see the nitty gritty details. What are the main differences between the two versions?
>>73485142In 3e you buy effects and build powers from them, like a Lego set.In 2e you buy powers and then add effects to customize them.
>>73484492>>73484518Yep. Also concede on the minion thing.However, I didn't bother to mention the -1 to a damage check as when you hit something and they fail the damage dc by say 1 degree of failure and likely will keep doing that... It makes a fight a slog and the -1 is a meh consolation.Not every villian is a Minion also.
>>73485142Most of the differences are relatively minor in mechanics, just some cost re-balancing and changing of presentation.For example, 2e used the classic D20 six ability scores, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma. 3e uses mostly the same, but split Dexterity into Dex and Agility, renamed Constitution to Stamina, Intelligence to Intellect, Wisdom to Awareness, and Charisma to Presence, and added Fighting as another stat as well.They shrunk the skill list but increased the cost of skills (some of the condensed skills cover more than their 2e predecessors did) and changed costs of powers that were underpowered or overpowered in 2e (Summon/Minions being a big one that was way overpowered, for example).But on the other hand, they made pointless changes that seem to be changes just to say they changed things. 2e had a power called Device, or later Container. It's what you'd use to build something like Iron Man's armor, or Mjolnir, or maybe even Captain America's shield. You'd build the device with the same points you do everything else, but you'd get a discount depending on how easy it was to remove the item from you, either 1/5 or 2/5 discount for if it's hard or easy to remove.3e has the same idea, but instead of having a Container effect that you then put what you want in, you instead buy all the powers you want together, and mark them with the Removable flaw with the same discount level.Continued...
>>73486121Absolutely - but not every fight is to the point of incapacitation. Villains should be running away when they're sufficiently threatened.
>>73478807Building super powers is fun
>>73487070>>73485142Then there's stuff that they changed that rendered previously really good material worthless. Both editions have the Impervious modifier that can be attached to your saves; in 2e it made you truly Impervious - any attack less than the rank of Impervious you have would automatically fail. To counter this, there was also the Penetrating modifier - literally just a negation of Impervious, as many ranks of Penetrating get removed from an Impervious Toughness.In 3e, they nerfed Impervious hard, it now is 1/2 rank, rounded up. So someone with rank 9 Impervious Toughness would now be Impervious to stuff at rank 5 damage or lower. So... basically you could shoot them with a shotgun or some assault rifles (IIRC they're both listed at damage 6, but I might be wrong on the rifles), and they could be hurt still, but a handgun (heavy pistol at damage 4) wouldn't hurt them anymore.And Penetrating still exists, but since Impervious was nerfed, there's no real need for it anymore.
>>73487153OP here. I fucking love making powers in this system. The fact that the mechanics and fluff are almost completely divorced helps a lot.I struggled for a bit coming up with an attack power for my teleporter that wasn't just teleporting part of someone away from them (the character is designed to be a burglar type, like catwoman crossed with nightcrawler, and tries to avoid too much violence) so I came up with a way to buff normal weapons like clubs/batons: Enhanced Ability (Strength 4, limited to melee damage) linked to Enhanced Advantages (Close combat 10), with a limit (doesn't apply to foes with all-around vision or those who can't be surprised) and a quirk (only functions immediately after teleporting next to a target). It's cheap, it works with any weapon I grab, and with the out-of-the-book club (strength-based damage 2) I'm comfortably at PL8 limits, with a slight lean toward accuracy.
>>73486121>the -1 is a meh consolation.It's not a consolation, it's how damage is handled. The stacking -1's is the entire point.
>>73487275>it hurts, but I can keep goingSpeaking of, is there any way to implement this through powers? The ability to shrug off the negative effects of being hurt for a turn or two would be really nice to see in a gritty PL8 game or such.
>>73487295There are a few ways to express greater resilience without raising the PL caps. You can get low-grade healing that can slowly take some damage off you, you can heal when you hurt someone else and flavor it as grit or determination, you could get Impervious (but it's garbage in 3e), 2e had the Boost power, a temporary powerup that augmented specific traits, or all of them if you want to pay the cost. Immunity can give total defense against some things.
>>73482339Working on one. I'm not a proud man but I thought of stealing Hit Points, Stamina Points, and Resolve Points from Starfinder.> 1 PP buys 2 HP, 4 SP, or 1 RP> A character may spend up to 2 × PL on any combination of the three.> Characters get an additional 1 × PL Power Points in order to afford these health stats.> When rolling for Toughness, you lose 1 SP for every 1 point you failed against the damage.> Cumulative Toughness penalties still occur as do all Conditions
>>73487295Maybe something like Limited Protection (only negates damage penalties)? I'm not sure how that would affect things if your toughness was already near PL limits though.
>>73487441Immunity to Damage Penalties 4/r, Fades
>>73487568Yeah that's better. I didn't see damage penalties on the srd but it works.
>>73487589>I didn't see damage penalties on the srdI'd argue at that point it's up to the GM or group.
>>73484477I love this shit
>>734875893e has a lot of "justify this idea to the GM."
>>73487664Most games do, anon. That's a big part of why the GM role exists in all games.
>>73487676Well specifically, I mean stuff like Limited or Feature. They have no real defined function, you have to choose what you want them to do, and it depends on what the GM allows. One might be OK with "Feature: No one sees the resemblance between Clark Kent and Superman," and another might demand you have the Deception ranks to justify it, and ask for a roll every now and then.
>>73487589Yeah, the immunity power itself specifies that depending on how broad the immunity you want, the points-cost should be appropriate.