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Why are Witches so often portrayed as mightier than most other spell casters?
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Source
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>>67220427
Because witches have a shitload of experience and none of the restraint or ethics of High Magic users. They are messy, chaotic, dangerous and very frightening. A regular wizard may throw a fireball or lightning bolt at you, but a witch will make your skin disintegrate very slowly, twist your body into a parody of its former self and keep you conscious, or simply vanish you out of existance. Hell, she might simply capture and eat you if she feels like it.

All sorcerers are potentially dangerous, but only witches can go the whole extent of becoming terrifying.
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>>67220451
this

But to actually answer your question, I think it's because they are mostly portrayed as evil, and thus must be made out to seem mightier than than the protagonist, so that it's actually an accomplishment when he eventually defeat the witch.
But the same could be said about any antagonist archetype I guess.
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>>67220427
Because girls are smarter than boys?
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It's all in newt eyes.
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>>67220517
Fuck I've been using nude eyes.
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>>67220427
I don't think they are.
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>>67220563
Yeah, I generally think of witches as being fairly low-tier compared to 'sorcerers' or 'wizards'. Witches can be dangerous, but at the end of the day they are generally eking out a living on the edge of society, bullying peasants and hiding from witch-hunters. Meanwhile, wizards are serious dudes who decide the fate of kings, build castles in a night, lay waste to armies, and other obvious displays of power.
If you get the opposite impression, I'm curious where from. Maybe it's a D&D thing? Are witches a high-level enemy in D&D, while low-level casters from other paths are seen as the default?
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Witches are, 99% of the time, villains. Which means that they must be comparable in strength to the party, which usually consists of 3-5 players. Other magical classes are dedicated to player classes, which is only worth 1 player in strength.
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>>67220427
>>67220563
>>67220694
I never really seen witches being portrayed as particularly powerful. Unless it is a low-magic setting and, witches are the only magic users. In which case, they mostly have plot powers.
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>>67220427
I don't recall this ever being a trope. I'd sooner say that's the classical wizard's job, not the witch - who is usually seen as some worker of lesser hedge magics than high sorceries.

Personally, I like distinctions made between wizards and witches that don't devaluate the other.
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>>67220694
If anything it's more common outside dnd, where there isn't really a hard categorical difference between magic users
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>>67220427
firstly, no they aren't, secondly, if they are it's feminism
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>>67223565
Witch King of Angmar would like to have a word with you
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>>67223665
WKoA wasn't a witch. He was called that because he had some witches working for him. Also, Tolkien witches (mortal spellcasters) were pretty weak shit compared to wizards (fucking angels).
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>>67223565

>If witches are more powerful it's feminism

Not always. Japanese stuff about powerful magical girls and women is rarely "feminist." They tend to be either evil dangerous sluts, or sexy children. And older Western depictions of powerful witches were mostly about how a woman with power is a terrible, unnatural thing.
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>>67220427

Witches originate from folklore where a single witch might as well be a god. A witches curse is a terrible thing that only the very lucky ever find a way to break, and often affects more than just yourself.

The modern concept of the wizard comes mostly from RPG rules and tropes, so they are tactical level superheroes. They throw a fireball at you, or cast fly on themselves, or turn a guy into stone, to mind control a guy. Their magic, while powerful, is pretty much always focused on something directly in front of them, and rarely extends in scope beyond a single battle.

A witch, in contrast, changes the whole world. They cast a spell so that there is no memory or physical evidence that you were ever born, making you a stranger to your own family. They turn you into a frog and make you always have been one. They curse an entire kingdom to fall into eternal slumber based on the actions of a single girl whose unbreakable destiny the witch cast in stone with just a few words.

A wizard is great in a fight, but half the shit that a folklore witch does a Wizard would have to be pushing level 20 so that he can cast Wish to do it for him. The Witch considers this her bread and butter magic, even if she doesn't have a lot thats most directly useful in a punch fight.

The wizard is a guy with a gun. The witch is a guy that steals your identity, hacks your bank account, and bankrupts you costing you your house and possessions. They are both dangerous but in very different ways and the witch, unlike the wizard, is a much more nebulous threat that you have less obvious ways to defend yourself from.
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>>67223770
The Witch King was literally described as a sorcerer, you nut.
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>>67220427
In what setting is this the case
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>>67223865
magical girls aren't witches.
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>>67220427
It's usually the opposite. Wizards are in thier phallic towers don't crazy wizard shit. Witch's are in shitty hurs giving out warts and curdling milk.
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>>67220427
Because Baba-Yaga > Some beardy boi
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>>67226715
Pretty sure old man Merlin and good king Solomon would deck her, friendo.
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>>67220427
Don't think they are. Most commonly witches and crones sport some kind of meager magical ability and are a protagonist's introduction the liminal space. They either directly transport the protagonist there with potions, cures, hexes, curses, portents, or charms or prophesize and hint. In any case the crone/witch character usually is not portrayed as overwhelmingly powerful, just someone with knowledge of something "more".

More powerful "spell casters" are usually portrayed as evil and often become powerful by losing some or all of their humanity either by making pacts and trades with demons or other entities or spending too long in/delving too deeply in liminal spaces and putting aside their humanity.

In the rarer case we have characters like Merlin and Gandalf who are portrayed as magically powerful and forces for good.
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>>67226844
Don't forget Odin
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Lets see:
Some people interprent the 3 crones or Norns as witches. I.e Shapespear in MacBeth

Isn't just mostly that isn't it? So there stands the Witches hut, hidden in the outskirts, far away from roads.
So you go there, ask if you are fucked, and they reply that your ass might be a bit of lube if you are going to live another day.
Make of that what you will, they do show up
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>>67226844
Solomon's power all comes from YHWH who is indeed pretty powerful, but that says more about him than Solomon. As for Merlin, he got trapped in a hole by some slut and died according to the most popular version of that myth.

>>67226981
Most of the listed spells that Odin knew weren't that powerful. He was a god so he has that going for him, though Norse gods are pretty low tier.
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>>67225516
Yeah but he wasn't a witch
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>>67226844
*wise king
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>>67226981
Odin is a troll. The metaphorical kind, not the kind he is sworn to destroy.
Its a subtle difference.
You will invite a hobo into your home, and get ruin for not respecting said hobo.
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>>67227257
All power comes from YHWH
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>>67227103
has anyone ever used the Dark Souls universe? Or a universe inspired by it?

Also, neato image, saved
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>>67220427
Flexibility.
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>>67220427
Generally the willingness to take a merry stroll down the dark paths of power with zero hesitation.
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>>67227257
>Solomon's power all comes from YHWH
Holy shit. It's almost like real world magic is sourced from divinity?! Idiot.

>he got trapped in a hole by some slut and died according to the most popular version of that myth.
He intentionally allowed himself to, yes, because he was too much of a frothing idiot forever virgin.
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>>67223665
Witch used to be a gender neutral term, didn't it?
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>>67227347
Is there a fucking difference?
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>>67223565
do you really think D&D witches, which started off as a very fancy monster-NPC with unique treasure, stem from feminism?
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>>67220427
because witches forgo all other distractions and dedicate themselves entirely to witchcraft
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>>67227690
Kinda, like most terms, genderization of terminology like Wizard/Witch/Warlock etc came much later
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>>67223565
This. Reminds me of Castle Falkenstein.
>women are better than men at magic
>magic is also a science lol
>because women excelled in the sciences throughout history

Jesus fucking Christ, how about not having gender superiority with the thing that makes fantasy, fucking fantasy???
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>>67227780
I actually remember this - it boiled down to "Why would I even play a male wizard then?" Most everything else about the setting was pretty cool, shame this killed it for me. Mazes and Minotaurs also has this, annoyingly. Luckily most settings do not tread this way.
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>>67227840
>>67227780

> /tg/ bitches about how female martials are unrealistic and shouldnt be allowed
> setting is written to give women a magical advantage instead
> /tg/ bitches in MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE
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>>67228550
You don't get it, do you? Magic is fucking magic. That's a bigger deal in fantasy than just hitting something very hard. Not only is it unprofessional to give any gender magical advantages, it also actively shuns the people who don't want to play it that way.
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>>67220492
>Witches are the Joker of wizards
What happened with Grunty style witches ? Do kinds don't like them anymore ?
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>>67225268
Folklore witches usually are an old fragile hag that fucks an entire village/lineage of a family for some petty shit like "who's the fairest of them all"
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>>67228582
I mean... can't the same be said for female barbarians and knights? Hell 9 times out of 10 sex differences are a fluff thing.

>>67227780
Honestly I was okay with this. It was a good justification for why women in universe are respected in the time period, fits with some decent amount of folklore and myth precedent. Though I would probably not reinforce it mechanically, and just have more female spell casters as npcs.
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>>67228582
That's not shunning, dipshit, that's different strokes. If someone takes it as a slight that something wasn't made exclusively to please them, that's their problem.
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>>67229711
>It was a good justification for why women in universe are respected in the time period, fits with some decent amount of folklore and myth precedent.
I'm just going to call you out on your bullshit right here. Fuck off.
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>>67229711
It was not a good justification. At all. It actively skewered caster players in one direction. That's not good for tabletop. At all. As a setting alone? Maybe. Novels are good for those kind of ideas. Alienating players, in a setting based on choice, is baseless and unprofessional. At least to the degree when you can't supersede these odds on your own.

Also what folklore and myth precedence? Women aren't the "magical gender" as some like to believe. I can name more archaic cultures that dot the masculine image of magic far more than the feminine one - Egyptthe personification of magic in Egyptian mythology was a man, not Isis. I'm not even referring to Thoth and ancient SumeriaGod of semen? Also the god of wizardry. So were his sons to name a few. May as well mention China's "loving" view on women and spirituality and Taoist sorcery.
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>>67230188
>Isis
>Hecate
>Baba yaga
>Norns, and Seidr magic being feminine
>Witches 3 in Shakespeare
>Circe
>Medea
>Morgana and Nimue
>Freya
>Fairytales with witch godmothers
>The Morrigan
What am I bullshitting? You don't really have to dig for explicit caster women. There are obviously some notable male examples too;
>Toth
>Merlin
>I think there are several in the Kalevala but I have not read it personally.
>Mespotamia has a male one too
The bible has a lot of them as well, but I feel they have a decidedly not wizard vibe.


I'm not saying you HAVE to have magic this way but its not an alien idea.
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>>67230321
The myth bullshit, you fucking ding dong. There is no male or female thing going for it. You're just citing a bunch of random folk figures.
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51 replies in, and nobody has pointed out that magic is stored in the mammaries?
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>>67230321
I'm just going to point out that you're listing a re-hashed mythological trope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fates
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>>67230366
Are you saying ancient Europeans weren't creative with their mythology? Damn
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>>67230278
>It actively skewered caster players in one direction
Yeah I said including mechanical incentive was probably a no go.
If you mean player characters feeling like playing a male caster would be harder from a story perspective, isn't that the same fucking thing as a woman feeling like a game skews her away from physical classes?
I guess I don't see how its an issue
>cooking is seen as a feminine skill
>Shit ton of super successful male chefs.

>Alienating players
I... man are players that skittish? I didn't even think of it as something that would be upsetting. Again I did agree mechanically enforcing it is a dumb, but as a setting recommendation it doesn't bother me.

>gyptthe personification of magic in Egyptian mythology was a man,
You're right. But Isis was a more prevalent goddess and also got Ra's true name. Just because the force is masculine doesn't mean its weilders aren't female. In the same way ships are often seen as female led by male captains.

>SumeriaGod of semen? Also the god of wizardry
Absolutely right. No contest on this.

>May as well mention China's "loving" view on women and spirituality and Taoist sorcery.
We're clearly talking western cultures anon. But you are right, and in an eastern setting I'd be more inclined to give magic male dominance.
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>>67230400
>Just because the force is masculine doesn't mean its weilders aren't female. In the same way ships are often seen as female led by male captains.
...Yes, just like Odin outstripped even Freyja by subjecting himself to a feminine force, despite not being a woman himself. Really makes you think, doesn't it?

>in an eastern setting I'd be more inclined to give magic male dominance.
How about not having a gender-dominated magic at all? intrinsically speaking
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>>67230344
I... yeah thats sort of what precedent is. I also listed Seidr, fate magic. Which is explicitly seen as a female thing to do. Its about weaving fate and uses a distaff, a spooling instrument used by women.

In the same way if I wanted to cite mythic precedent for masculine men doing super human things I'd reference Herakles.

I could write an essay on it, but this is 4chan remeber?

>>67230366
Yeah a recurring theme in the western canon is a group of magic women, and I'm using it to promote the precedent that magic women has precedent.

You guys DO get that I'm not spouting this as the end all and be all of every setting ever.
>>67230391
Also this.
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>>67230439
>Odin whatnot

The problem with Falkenstein is that it's insistent women are just THAT much better. There is no out of the ordinary male caster that turns out to be better than most, that's a setting impossibility.
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>>67230439
>...Yes, just like Odin outstripped even Freyja by subjecting himself to a feminine force, despite not being a woman himself. Really makes you think, doesn't it?


>cooking is seen as a feminine skill
>Shit ton of super successful male chefs.

I addressed this. I read the myths anon. Odin is the top dog, because he even dominates the thing Freya is supposed to be good at.

>How about not having a gender-dominated magic at all? intrinsically speaking

Again I did agree mechanically enforcing it is a dumb.

I know its reddit spacing anon, but I feel I addressed this.
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>>67230465
No, you're just spouting Norse nonsense. The only other European culture to give grace to feminine magic being that of the Greco-Romans, and they didn't actually have a cemented "magic is feminine lol" stance on it like Norse did. The god of magic in Greece was Hermes, not Hecate, by the by.
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>>67230473
I don't think that's a problem assuming that men are better at the physical side of things. "Realistically" no woman would be as good as the best male fighters so it's not such a terrible thing if the reverse applies to magic.
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>>67230500
>muscles take up the same amount of influence as magic in fantasy
>f a n t a s y
Yeah, no, get the fuck out of this thread right now.
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>>67230495
>No, you're just spouting Norse nonsense
>Fucking huge norse myth influence on the cultural perception of fantasy including elves, dwarves, multiple 'realms'
"lol norse myth has NOTHING to do with western fantasy"

>The god of magic in Greece was Hermes, not Hecate

We are in a thread about witches. Hecate is engraved as a witch patron by the little known author Shakespeare.

I know my mythology, yes there are male and female magic gods. Once again I am saying if one WANTED to make a setting where females are better at magic while men are better at technology, fighting etc. it wouldn't be incomprehensible to play it up.

fucking hell. I'm not trying to tear the dicks off all your wizard characters.
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>>67230500
That IS a problem though. Men being stronger than women is rarely, if ever, brought up in most tabletop settings. Because it's too obvious in real life. There is no mechanical implementation for this. Female fighters outdoing male fighters just means the female is the better fighter. You say one gender is more powerful with magic, and you're opening up a whole different avenue, especially when magic can be whatever the fuck the author wants in accordance with the setting itself. It's going to lead to more unsatisfactory questions than answers.
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>>67230516
Wouldn't be the first time some mighty hero with a sword had the final say in the fate of the universe or whatever.

I think your argument would hold water if you were playing a game where magic was the only option, and where the game for some reason pigeonholes you into playing women that would be dumb. But if the game has both magic and martial characters and makes women better at the former and men better at the latter, that's not so different to saying that, say, elves or gnomes are better at magic while orcs and goliaths are better at fighting. It doesn't make orcs the "wrong" choice, just a different one.
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>>67230559
>western fantasy is built entirely around dorfs an elfs
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>>67230500
>I don't think that's a problem
"So why even bother making a male caster?"
>u-uh it's not mechanical don't worry it's just the lore
"...isn't this a roleplaying game?"

…..Anon
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>>67220427
I always liked Discworld’s (mainly early) split between Wizards and Witches. Wizards are all raw power and mainly vanican-esque spells where Witches were more subtle power both magical and alchemy/herblore/common sense but can bust out some powerful curses/hexes/magic when pressed
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>>67230495
>The god of magic in Greece was Hermes, not Hecate, by the by.

They had more than one god of magic anon. Hecate was, if you buy Hesoid, the more important of the two in general.

>Hekate whom Zeus the son of Kronos (Cronus) honoured above all. He gave her splendid gifts, to have a share of the earth and the unfruitful sea. She received honour also in starry heaven, and is honoured exceedingly by the deathless gods . . . For as many as were born of Gaia (Gaea, Earth) and Ouranos (Uranus, Heaven) [the Titanes] amongst all these she has her due portion. The son of Kronos [Zeus] did her no wrong nor took anything away of all that was her portion among the former Titan gods: but she holds, as the division was at the first from the beginning, privilege both in earth, and in heaven, and in sea. Also, because she is an only child, the goddess receives not less honour, but much more still, for Zeus honours her.
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>>67230595
Are you claiming it didn't have an impact? Because that's wrong.
I explicitly didn't say all I said it had a huge impact. Because it impacted tolkien, along with a lot of celtic myth. Where magic is pretty much across the board. Cerridwen is a pretty decent example of another hugely powerful female caster.
Let me reiterate the point, you could say women have a cultural bent towards magic in the setting and it not be bizarre.

But you're not going to respond with anything, probably just another meme pic and greentext at this point.
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>>67230630
You're speaking mythological. Hermes was 100x more influential than Hecate because of mankind and the occult. Hermeticism, Rosicrucianism, just general esotery. Hermes was heavily symbolical and seen as the same entity as Thoth. Hermes Trismegistus is derived from this. It isn't even remotely arguable that Hermes is the more influential of the two.
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>>67230670
Actually fair point. I sort of forgot about Hermes Trismegistus and those movements.
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>>67230663
>greentext
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>>67230670
>It isn't even remotely arguable that Hermes is the more influential of the two.

Well good because it wasn't being argued. You didn't say anything about who was more influential. You just said "the" god of magic in Greece was Hermes, which isn't really true. Hermes Trismegistus is related to the Greek god Hermes, but not the same figure (nor did Hermes Trismegistus get his magical characteristics from Hermes).
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>>67220427
taking the historical context into consideration I'd say mostly because nobody understands what's going on.
So the assumption that they are in league with the devil or some such elevates them from weirdos to agents of the divine/supernatural and basically the very battle of good vs evil.

Wizards are basically just academics that spent their lives studying.
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>>67230728
Alright I know I said I expected it, but it did make me chuckle a bit. Hope you have a good night dude.
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>>67230617
In an ideal system (eg. not D&D) casters would benefit from physical ability in some way. Male casters would probably look more like gishes, less capable in magic but better in other respects. Might not be the choice of powergamers but the same is true of most choices in any given system. Reverse applies to women who choose to be fighters.
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>>67229723
>Buy this product.
>no, this product does not please me.
>you have a problem then, not the product.
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>>67230321
>"I know more female magic users than male ones"
This does not indicate support. There are dozens of male European mythological sorcerers, such as essentially every famous or infamous alchemist and demonologist.
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>>67230744
>Hermes Trismegistus is related to the Greek god Hermes, but not the same figure (nor did Hermes Trismegistus get his magical characteristics from Hermes).

Okay. You're an idiot.
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>>67230823
Its more of a rolemodel thing/archetype than hard coded facet. Again I'm not denying male casters in fantasy I'm just saying if one wanted to make a setting where females happened to have a higher inclanation to it I personally don't see it as bad.

Sort of like how males tend to have precedent towards scientist or martial hero.

>such as essentially every famous or infamous alchemist and demonologist.
Alright if we're getting into explicit historical alchemists then you're right there's a lot more of them.
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>>67230744
Hermes Trismegistus is, literally, an amalgam between Thoth and Hermes. They were both seen as one-and-the-same. You can't say they're not the same figure when they explicitly are.
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>>67230744
>This Hermes is not the same as that Hermes.
>Depite all contemporary recognition deciding that they were one and the same.

Uhuh, sure pal.
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>>67220427
Mana tanks
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>>67230882
Do you think the historical ones aren't mythologized?

Bluebeard wasn't actually summoning demons IRL.

Either way, I don't mind it that much as a setting personally, I just found the justification to be week, as long as there isn't mechanical enforcement who cares. This is just the "hur -4 strength" argument backwards if you try to push for mechanical distinctions.
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>>67230925
>Do you think the historical ones aren't mythologized?
Let me be clearer, they're less archetypical to the modern conception than say a god or goddess of magic.
People never worshiped John Dee, and there aren't clear cultural ties between him and Jahn Dee who is recognized as the egyptian equivalent.

But to claim their impact on the conception of magic is irrelevant would be wrong on my part.

>Either way, I don't mind it that much as a setting personally, I just found the justification to be week.
I can see what you mean. I find it acceptable justification, but I wouldn't argue its particularly strong either.
>as long as there isn't mechanical enforcement who cares. This is just the "hur -4 strength" argument backwards if you try to push for mechanical distinctions.
I agree.
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>>67230851
>>67230890
>>67230895
durr
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>>67227710
I thought male witches were called warlocks
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>>67231274
Male witches are also called witches, warlocks are some old gaelic word for oathbreaker that only ever sees use in tabletop games
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>>67231147
This is like saying Gnostic Christ isn't christ.

They are the same entity, just in different cults.
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>>67220427
They have the ability to use lesbian magic, the most potent form of magic there is.
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>>67220427
Hags and witches are usually encountered in their home environs where they have extra magical prowess and reagents. A lich in his lich tower is way more terrifying than a lich in a Final Destination Only No Items Deathmatch.
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>>67220427
Because Witchcraft paranoia?
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>>67220427

I think you might have misread that, I don't think they're generally portrayed as mightier, but they are generally portrayed as scarier. Witches are supposed to be scary.
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>>67220427
The excuse I use is that they're exploiting their gender's natural ability to give birth to play host to multiple demonic spirits. For men, you can get possessed or you're a warlock that can summon one spirit at a time, but that's the limit your body could physically handle the strain of. For women, since they can develop life inside them, they have the capacity to withstand multiple entities attempting to possess them. And it's precisely because multiple entities are trying to get in the driving seat that the witch remains unpossessed; their squabbles stop each other, so she's free to use their powers.



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