So how do we all feel about the newest Space Marine Chapter to join universe?They look cool to say the least
>>66730679Tell us about it
havent read their book so I have no idea who they are
>>66730679Only read the article on the GW site, but they seem pretty cool. Can't say much more without more information.
>>66730679They pissed off the ultrafags so they're okay in my book.
>>66730679They look almost as good as the Ultramarines!
>>66730679Good lore without being snowflakes/mary sues as so many custom chapters are. /tg/ gonna chimp out cuz it's ADB tho
>>66730699Well apparently a new book came out recently, last month if I'm not mistaken titled "Spears of the Emperor" which features a new Space Marine Chapter known as the "The Emperors Spears" which have only been around for a short time compared to all the other chapters, but they're a part of the Adeptus Vaelarii, the Sentinels of the Veil, which means they're closely connected with the Star Scorpions and Celestial Lions. They seem to somewhat inspired by Greek Mythology as their homeworld is "NOT" Neptune. They also organize themselves as more of autonomous warhost which is considered not normalMost of what I have read has come from the article on the GW website https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/12/who-are-the-emperors-spearsgw-homepage-post-4/
Their book also has an "official" rule in it for playing as the Emperors Spears if you play their chapter on tabletop
They have cool helmets and its always nice to see power weapons that arent swords but I dont know anything else about themI bet they would look nicer as old marines instead of being watered down by tacticool though
>>66730679Yet another teenage power fantasy with ever so slightly different undertones, so that the people that play them feel somewhat original by picking the umpteenth repackaging of the same theme.
>>66730873welcome to 40k, enjoy your stay
>>66730679We feel good.
>>66730679>>66730834>another Ancient Greek chapterWe already have Minotaurs and Iron Warriors
>>66730679Gaelic marines seems like a cool idea
>>66730679Pissed. My OC donut steel was going to be Spears of The Emperor but they would have had a more Filipino tropical theme. Now I gotta figure out a new name for my giant monster hunting spear marines
>>66731371Use the same name in latin or filipino?Or use a filipino legend has the base or something?
>>66730834The book came out a while ago, just the hardback (non collectors) version got released
Wait the book is out?
>>66730679Is 4chan allowed to like things?
>>66730850This ironically makes Thunderhammers a better pick in here than Power Spears
>>66731234Iron Warriors are Greek?
>ultramarine blue paint schemeyawn
>>66730679So are they White Scars successors or something?
>>66731529It takes the best parts of Space Wolves and Ultramarine aesthetics, and ditches the shitty parts
>>66730834I liked the part about the Druids.>Chapter Specialists known as Druids replace the usual Librarians, Chaplains, Techmarines and Apothecaries of the Adeptus Astartes. These warrior-priests each stand ready to harvest the gene-seed of fallen brothers, as well as performing their own duties based on their specialist skills and esoteric abilities.
>another blue scheme What a missed opportunity. Should have been seafoam green with tridents.
>>66731523Bro, their home planet was literally called "Olympia"
>>66731596I kinda dig it but it seems to me that it's a MASSIVE derogation of the Codex. Hell one of the most important task of the Chaplains is to watch for corruption, notably in the librarians. Kinda hard to do that when they ARE the librarians. Closest we've ever had was Iron Fathers being Techmarine+Chaplain or Wolf Priests being Chaplain+Apothecary. But Apothecary+Chaplain AND Librarian? Seems a but much to me. I'll see when I read it but still, doesn't seem very pure, lads.
>>66732442Scratch that, that's even worse, they even are the Techmarines at that. That's fucked up. I hope they have several druids per Warhost cus if you lose the one guy in charge of litterally everything that isn't commanding, yer fucked. Still, will definitely read the book.
>>66731511Yes, just don't tell the other boards. It's out of fashion there.
>>66731596>librarian and chaplain at the same timeI'm pretty sure this is considered a pretty serious deviantion from the codex astartes
>>66730679primaris is for faggots.
>>66730679It makes me want spear weapons, so I guess I like them.
>>66730679Anons, dumb question.You are given two options:Pull the plug on the Emperor and what happens, happens.Or, some fuckery takes place that merges Emps with Khorne into a single distinct entity.Which choice would you make and why?
>>66732732Derail, make a thread about it instead.
>>66732872Ah youre right. My bad. Wasnt thinking.Related to thread: Cool beans man, but still not as legit as Ultramarines. I feel where >>66730803 is coming from. Awesome, but sorta meh.
>>66730679They're not new though.
>>66732617To me it absolutely is. Chaplain were pretty much established as a reaction to Librarians and the edict of Nikea back in the time of the Legions.
>>66732442>>66732617I think it's just that all the specialist units are also apothecaries
>>66731477I suppose that's all I can do now. Latin doesn't work well with a Filipino theme though, and Tagalog doesn't quite have the same weight.
>>66732981We'll see while reading the book. It would make a bit more sense rather than all the specialist roles rolled into one.
>>66733211If the Emperor himself managed to come up with both Iron Hands an Iron Warriors within 20 legions I think its okay if you reuse the word spear now that there are over a thousand chapters in the galaxy
>>66732395They were originally. Modern IWs are more WWI Trench warfare and biological experiments than Greek
>>66733306It clearly says "All gather geneseed as well as do other things based on their esoteric abilities"So there are Psychic Druids, and Chaplain Druids, and Machine Druids, and all druids harvest fallen geneseedStill a codex deviation obviously but there'd be no point writing the lore if they just followed it same as everyone else
The whole druid thing is very poorly explained in the article. I've read the german translation back when it was released and the druids are more of a fusion of specialist and apothecary. So, it is not chaplains, librarians, techmarines and apothecaries rolled into one, but its apothecary mixed with chaplain, librarian OR techmarine. Each of the last three offices is equipped with a narthecium and fulfills apothecary duties as well as their more standard duties,
>>66733797You're right, I misread. That's reassuring.
>>66732578You're confusing /v/ with every other board. Though /v/ fags try and spread that shit to any other board they visit.
>>66730834so they are the most special of all special snowflakes?
>>66734301Meh doesn't seem too snowflake from this. And even if they are, it seems ADB has made his own universe in 40k, which is perfect, self contained in case of fuck ups.
>>66733797it makes sense as well when you realise that one of their brother chapters from that founding the celestial lions got wiped out by the inquisition targeting their apothecaries, so having more troops trained as them offsets that, much harder to assassinate a psychic or a heavily armoured techmarine.
>>66730834Now the question is...is the Mega on the general up to date again so i can read it?
>>66734401No you poorfag since it's not even out yet. The edition that cale our several months ago was the ludicrously expensive one, with paperback and all the goodies. And come on man, it's 10 pounds. I understand not wanting to buy some old ass books that came out years ago, hell I share pdfs very often, but a new one? It's not expensive and helps the author.
>>66734450I've already bought Shadowbreaker Audiobook faggot, and the genestealer raping t'au girls made it worth every cent. Cut me some slack
>>66734497Oh shit I forgot about that one. I loved the first one. Without spoilers, how is it?
>>66734524It's great, the action in it is sex, the story of plots within plots in the inquisition does not disapoints and the epilogue is great too
>>66734359Idk man, maybe i am just bitter but I generally try to pretend that all new lore doesnt exist since the super-duper-mega-special marines were released.
>>66734497300% my fetish
>>66734584Try to read some stuff. It's pretty good. Hell the Dark Imperium and Plague Wars are supposedly about Primaris but their worth is in Guilliman's thoughts, especially when it deals with his relation to the Emperor, His potential divinity and His governing.And some novels coming out aren't about Primaris even though they are about SM so hey, you can still find stuff for yourself.
>>66734554Nice, thanks a lot. I was really looking forward to reading it since I loved the first one and the associated short stories years ago. Just bought it, it seems bigger than the standard BL sized novel, that's cool.
>>66730679Good thread to bring this up. That image inspired me, since I want to do my first space marines as a chapter with an aquatic homeworld. Stuck between Emperor's Spears because I love their color scheme, or a homebrew. Here's two test models, one in a turquoise I have a lot of spray for, and the other done in ES colors over grey base, as per the Duncan tutorial. I took suggestions for the other colors on the left from /40kg/, but I'm not sold on it. I've got two more for each color primed, so if you have suggestions I may try them.
>>66734659While homebrew is more personal, having an official and supported chapter means it represents something tangible to everyone. Especially if it's a chapter with novels, and ADB said the second novel was almost finished already, which means you'll get even more fluff about the Spears eventually.
>>66734388If thats the justification, I honestly dig it. And even if its not, consindering how important gene-seed is for a chapter having more people trained to harvest it makes sense.
They look a bit off, like some kind of fanf->Spear of the Emperor (Novel) by Aaron Dembski-BowdenOh I see.
>>66735150Imagine being this much of a grognard.
>>66735951Look, I like his books but everything he touches have this flavour of "mine is like something else but a little better, more unique". It's seems like the guy always write using only one hand.
>>66736029Listen, at least he gives us a bit more variety in the setting. Would you rather read about Chapter XYZ that is a carbon copy of the Ultramarines, or a chapter that, y'know, is a bit more interesting, culture-wise? His stuff *is* more unique by virtue of the fact that, apart from Wraight and Abnett, he's the only one trying something new each time around.
>>66730679The Iron Snakes had nearly the same concept and we're much cooler
They're a decently cool chapter, but fuck ADB for killing Ekene Dubaku in such a shit way in the book.
>>66730834Does anyone else think they sound like Iron Snakes?>ocean world>freelance squads>its "not a fishing lance"
>>66736121Don't know, didn't read the book but I will give a chance. And I will laugh loud if the story includes a waifu, magic pet and a long time friendship between too guy with polar opposite personalities.
>>66736029That's literally what building custom SM's are. And I feel to see how they "look off" besides being primaris which is now the new standard for GW anyway
>>66734636Yeah that stuff does sounds pretty good, though the primaris part is so not needed. Some of the lore guys write good stuff especially over at black library.
>>66730679Looks like ultramarines
>>66730679That better not be a wolf pelt, my wolf friend or we'll have a wolf problem.
>>66733724as a point of fact, apparently at one point there were two chapters with the exact same name, heraldry, and colors, before they were both wiped out in a massive battle. The Administratum ordered "Chapter whose name escapes me since its been a few years since I've read the 6th ed codex" to deal with an issue, and only discovered their mistake after the fact when 2k marine bodies of the 'same' chapter were found littering the battlefield.Either that, or the chapter was getting rather noncompliant, nobody realized, and even then they managed to suck hard enough to lose a fight with the strength of 2 ENTIRE chapters behind them
>>66733871that is a lot more reasonable./mydudes/ have a over sized apothecary group specifically because they're terrified of not being able to maintain their numbers/losing the knowledge of their geneseed, and most battle brothers are a lot more competent in medical craft than reasonable
>>66730834Oh shit, they're Space Wolf successors.
>>66732617There are a few chapters that have that combination.
>>66732954Oh cool I like the idea of expanding on existing chapters
>>66737612Red scorpions are so obsessed with gene purity they have an apothecary sergeant in every squad
>>66737725that sounds pretty smartsimilar in function to the helix adept in infiltrator squads, I'm guessing? as stupid as primaris are imo, that is an actual good idea, considering there's usually only 1 apothecary attached to a company
>>66736461Wait, Ekene is dead? Fuck, he was cool, why did he die?
>>66738042Honestly, if each squad had an apothecary (or something along the lines) it'd look pretty dope. Break up the monotony of the usual marine colors a little and maybe make the base squads, i.e. tacticals, assaults and devastators, a bit more interesting.
>>66730834Who are they successors of? UM with SW fluff?
>>66730679SHINY AND NEW. Not often do you have a chapter that's younger than the majority of it's members.
>>66740149I mean, the article says they're estimated to have been created about 1k5 years ago. So I don't get you.
>>66737645Which ones? Chaplains and Librarians tend to be pretty opposed, especially since Librarians are the conduit of potential corruptions the Chaplain is supposed to fight against.>>66737686Read PDF related then. Top notch book about an already existing minor chapter being expanded upon. And you can't get it through normal means.
>>66731371Tridents instead of spears then? Harpoons doesn't have the ring to it imo
>>66738259We don't know yet and knowing ADB, we probably won't. He's a believer that one chapter's origin should not determine the successor's life, which I find understandable. SM chapters are fiercely independent, living in almost complete isolation. Traditions and behaviours will develop over time. UM and DA have successors that are alike arguably because they supervise those chapters, but one can easily imagine a chapter fucking off and developing itself alone.
>>66730679They have some interessting fluff (although we have plenty of Greek themed chapters). I like them.
>>66732442I think a chaplain+librarian mix could be great for the right chapter, but apoth too is ridiculous.The thing is each position that's combined means that marine is both less specialised and reduces your selection of recruits greatly. How likely are you going to find someone who is a top doctor, psyker and zealous willed? There's a reason division of labour is a thing.
>>66737594I love the idea that a chapter was completely created twice because of an administatum mistake making the first account get lost in bureaucracy. The lore needs some more silly things like that rather than 110% grim dark or grot goofiness extremes
>>66738167There's no harm in simply painting one due in each squad in white. Doesn't have to have any ingame effect
>>66740231We have some widely divergent chapters but they often never have their origin reveiled because of that.Personally I'd love to read about a super shoot gun line chapter that came from the white scars. Would be interesting for it to be justied, or if its just a curious background quirk and never brought up again
>>66740303Well it's not a gun line chapter but rather a stealth one here >>66740193 I won't spoil it in case you want to read but they turned out this way because of a past event. Quite interesting to go through and really fun to see how a smaller chapter struggles compared to a 1st founding one.
>>66734659thin your paints wtf
>>66740349>past event.Yeah that's the route I'd go, that and adapting to limited supplies of some kind. No point in trying hit and run when you have no bike but easy access to lascannons and whirilwinds
>>66734702>having an official and supported chapter means it represents something tangible to everyoneIf you nail the iconography and culture of the chapter this isn't a problem. It's only a problem some creates their own colour scheme and doesn't do anything else
>>66740418Well that and the fact that it resonates with everyone. No need to explain your Chapter's culture and history to every person that asks if they're the Flesh Tearers for example. A quick search on their side will take care of that.
>>66740437You don't have to explain much if anything if you model it, which is my point. Whether it's homebrew or an existing chapter, if their story isn't coming through in the models and painting visually you're not doing it properly
>>66730679>emperors spears>they use spearsok i guess
>>66740506>Brought to you by the company that made the iron hands, blood angels, ultramarine and space wolves!
>>66740506ADB mentionned he wanted to put a joke about that in the book, don't know if it's in there.
>>66730834Am I seeing things or did they put norse runes on the right pauldron?I thought they were ancient greece based, shouldn't they be using the greek alphabet then?
>>66740580They look made up
>>66738144He's permanently on the inquisition's shit list from all the previous Celestial Lions lore, so the inquisition sent an assassin after him disguised as a retainer to the Mentors guy in the Spear's book, and during a war council meeting with the Emperor's Spears, Lions, some Black Templars, the assassination just runs up to Ekene and chops off his head. I wish I was joking.
>>66734659You're just in this for the aquamarine puns huh?
>>66737614>>66738259>>66740231They're Ultramarine successors.
>>66730834The Atheneans to the Minotaurs' Spartans
>>66740668I don't say I am an expert in that field but I skimmed some websites and yeah they are made up.The person who designed this clusterfuck could have just used wikipedia to write some simple sentences there but no, they took the lazy route.>>66740738Oh man, I do not wanna know how ADB will bullshit himself out of the fact that the BT and Mentors would want to see some blood after having witnessed the death of a fellow CM ( especially the Mentors who where used to reach the guy) are they gonna dissapear in the warp or get headshotted by some "ork snipers" to silence them?
>>66731673And riding flying sharks!
>>66740896More spoilers I could be misremembering things because I haven't read the book since release so take this with a grain of salt, but I think it was explicitly said the Mentors were actively working with the inquisition to kill Ekene under the guise of sending support to their sector instead of the inquisition just sending an assassin alongside them because the Callidus had a bunch of Mentors specific augments and such. So once the main Mentors guy finds out he was being used by his chapter to murder Ekene, he ends up defecting to the Emperor's Spears at the very end of the book after he hunts down the Callidus and he takes on a new name. The Spears welcome him into their ranks and send a message back to the rest of the Imperium lying and saying they found the Mentor dead with info about the plot to kill the Celestial Lions and said they'd fire on any other Mentors entering the sector ever again. So I doubt the Mentors would care, but I have waited so long for the Black Templars to fuck shit up in the Inquisition as payback for the Lion's suffering ever since Ekene made friends with Grimaldus. As a Lions fan I was excited to get a book with more of them in it, but after losing Ekene and their homeworld in the book I'm a tad salty. I know their whole schtick much like the Lamenters is being turbofucked, but god damn.
coped this from 1d4chanADB has given some details about their look and culture through some forums. They mark ranks with helmet plumes of various colors and are basically Spartans in SSPPPAAAACE compared to Ultramarines being space-romans. Alternatively, the Emperor’s Spears may have a distinctly Ancient Briton theme, from their use of Ogham Runes, Woad Blue colouring, organisation into semi-autonomous ‘Warhosts’ and their use of distinctly Brythonic flavoured titles such as ‘High King’ and ‘Druid’. Their allied forge world, Bellona, is also the name of a Romano-British goddess. They also semi-worship the rain - just like the British.
>>66741154>yfw ADB did this that way he can force a false narrative of "LOOK AT THIS SPACE RACISM OF THE ONLY BLACK CHAPTER BEING PERSECUTED!"
>>66740870>Fire Angels>Minotaurs>Astral ClawsSexy as fuck color schemes.
>>66731520Wait, power spears are a thing?
At least it's not more space shark wanking
>>66743215Hey screw you, Carcharodons are cool. I'm eagerly awaiting the 3rd novel.
>>66742606yep. they're just shit, so 90% of people don't realize that they existone of my fluff lieutenants is equipped with a storm bolter and power spear, and leads the company assault squads. I had a grey knights sprue laying around, and decided to take a page out of the Blood Raven's codex
>>66730679They have existed for at least 15 years now. They just primarized them, so they ruined them.
>>66744599Fuck off, they existed but with a single entry to their name. There was nothing to ruin. Don't be a contrarian cunt.
>>66744916Primaris ruin everything because they are designed to do so in concept, no matter how fleshed out they were, if they were marines, primarizing them just makes them worse.
>>66730873Tell me what game isn't a power fantasy at some level.
>>66744938Yes. You're absolutely right.
>>66730873>I wrote a blog post a while ago about why I fucking hate games, because this is what it does! It appeals to Male fantasy
>>66745798>Running a game corporation that can cost other people real money isn't a power fantasy
I'd rather see the emperors tridents to be fair.
As probably one of the only people in the thread that's actually read the book, I actually really like them and how unique their chapter is I just hate how half assed GW made their rules, just gave them a bad chapter tactic and no warlord trait, stratagem, relic, etc.
>>66734702Until they get wiped out or retconned somehow.
>>66730800This guy gets it.
>>667452751 hour 1 life
For those of you who read the book, how is it?
>>66744938Imagine being this assblasted about a toy
>>66730679space marines are real fucking gay
>>66751064I thought it was pretty neat, not gonna lie. Not his best work, but far from worst.
>>66730873> You see, if i show them i can go out of my way to make fun of the thing i don't like, actively making it apart of my life instead of moving on, they'll think i'm cool mom.
>>66741484>space kangz>suicide by coppottery
>>66731596>ancient Greek based>druidsU wot m8?
>>66754097Naa, just a lot of the derivatives are.Cut it down to the ultras, blood angels and dark angles, and 4 chaos gods and iron warriors for chaos and that would be enough for established lore.
>>66741154Well my opinion might be a bit jaded because I like the CL but what the Inquisitor did on the shrine world was nothing new and or damning for one of his kind, even if the CL had reached Terra, would they only get the explanation that the Inquisition is in the position to allow these atrocitys, if they like it or not.To make them shut up by letting some Marines dissapear, is also nothing new and is a typical move to remind them of the Inquisitions power.But this is like having someone bite the curb but instead of kicking some teeth in, did the guy who forced that person into that position come back with a big rig and ran that poor bastard over for just mentioning that he did a shitty job a few years ago.I understand that the Inquisition does these acts because there is no way around them sometimes but even they let some things slide and having some Space Marines bitch about them would be a non- issue but in this example do they not only waste resources, let a well trained assassin be killed no they even worsened their reputation with even more SM chapters, who could have been very helpful allies..I know that some writers make it a point to never write a happy ending in a 40k story but this just makes the iIquisition look stupidly evil and it cheapens the conclusion to this story dramatically just to have something bad happen.tl;dr:That was a dick move ADB that didn 't make the story more interesting and Ekene deserved a better death.
What if they were the new chapter?
>>66730834>They seem to somewhat inspired by Greek Mythology as their homeworld is "NOT" NeptuneThey're supposed to be a hodgepodge of 'Celtic' influences, with sort of classicised Celtic names forge world Bellona named for the god Belhomeworld Nemeton named for the god Nemed or ritual places called nemetaChapter master is literally called High King>>66740580The runes are refered to as Ogham, which is a way of carving Irish on wood or stone, but look nothing like it
>>66757912nulore misses the point of grimdark and just portrays the inquisition as psychotic team killers who only show up to murder people for successfully defending against chaos
>>66756746as other anons stated, they also take inspiration from ancient Britain
Wonderful tome. ADB continues to prove that he is BL's very bestHowever, I would've preferred Black Legion III for the First Black Crusade and Ra kino
>>66757912Yeah, I feel the same way. I know the inquisition doesn't when people that cross them, but it really seems like quite a fucking overreaction against the Lions in general to go this far for essentially the Lions just complaining about the Exterminatus. There's proving a point and then there's killing their flagship with their entire leadership structure, trying to make them go extinct on Armageddon, and now STILL going off them the second they start rebuilding by killing their chapter master. Talk about kicking a man while its down and then kicking him again and again for such a small offense in the first place. Like I said earlier, I really wish in the next books in the series we see at least the inklings of some backlash against the Inquisition for so openly killing Ekene in front of the biggest and most crusadery chapter there is, who also happen to be the Lion's cousins. But knowing the writers it'll just go completely ignored sadly, or they'll just chalk it up as 'no happy ending cuz grimdark!' when it's just bad writing.
>>66742606They have the exact same profile as power swords, you can find them in weapon lists for Index Imperium 1
>>66740784>>66745355>>66755074Sorry I hurt you. You may disagree, but you'd be wrong. The issue aren't the Space Marines per se, but the fact that its players want the viking version, the Roman version, the monastic version, the vampiric version, the samurai version... and then the Roman-monastic, the viking-vampiric, the samurai-Roman-vampiric-tacticool... People just want to feel that there is nothing ridiculous in saying "My guys are like vikings, but, like, SUPER vikings, super more powerful, with the bestest armour and even bester weapons". And that's how you end up releasing a faction like Custodes.>>66745275I struggle to see the power fantasy in Tyranids, Tau, Necrons, Eldar, Daemons...
>>66763687>daemons immortals with reality bending powers>eldarancient and beautiful and thin and lithe ninjas with bullet time reflexes>taufucking mechs>tyranidsan unstoppable living wave, the ultimate organism>necronsimmortal robots with reality bending powersHow do you not see the power fantasy in all of these races?
>>66764129>Imperial GuardA whole lot of dudeshmmmmm, one of these things is not like the others
>>66760553Well some writers still get it kinda right.The newest example that I can give is the Inquisitor from the novel Knightblade by Andy Clark, then there is Inquisitor from Ben Counters World Engine ( allthough he only appears for a few pages with his thoughts but he doesn't appear to be some kind of monster in there) and then there was the Inquisitor from the book Nightbringer by Graham Mcneill who was more interesting than fucking Uriel Ventris, all of those Inquisitors where no psychotic bastards but rather people with great responsibility who have to consider that they can't trust anybody and who have to always question the loyalty of those who serve them but who also realize that this kind of paranoia paired with such great power can blind them in such a way that they wouldn't be able to differentiate between traitor and loyalist anymore which will result in them hurting the imperium more than any other enemy.And even those guys with all their experience and informations can make a mistake, which can result in a wrongly ordered exterminatus and they have to live with that and accept it.In short they should act more like spys from the Cold War, who have to ensure that the nuclear holocaust is not happening while also making sure that their country doesn't lose the war and not act like a some sort of overkill loving war criminal.
>>66764352Nightbringer is hardly nulore, its what, 15 years old at this point?5th edition Grey Knights codex was really the turning point in Inquisition lore where it changed from "men with an impossible burden doing horrific things to stave off an even worse darkness" to "these guardsmen killed a chaos space marine so we nuked their home planet so nobody can know about it"
>>66764208>unstoppable wall of grinding steel, badass HUMANITY FUCK YEAH FACING DOWN THE HORROR WITH A FLASHLIGHT soldiers>not a power fantasy
>>66762020ADB himself says post-Roman Britain, so heavy Old Irish influence - basically 'Celtic' but with a Romano-Greek veneer