There's a lot of conflicting information on how much land you should buy. There are over optimist hippy types that say you can feed a family of four with .25 acres and others that say 10 is the minimum with livestock or 50 for hunting.On the other hand, if you're attracted to the isolation, it seems like most of the 5-10 acre lots you see are not a great leap from suburbs. they're usually in the big long strips where your neighbors house is only 50-100 yards away on either side.So, do you buy as much as you can reasonably afford, or do you go with some calculated range? lets say you want to grow or hunt 90% of your food, but you're not that interested in selling anything.
>>2252469>>On the other hand, if you're attracted to the isolation, it seems like most of the 5-10 acre lots you see are not a great leap from suburbs. they're usually in the big long strips where your neighbors house is only 50-100 yards away on either side.this is 100% the reality. basically the county or jurisdictions usually have certain land use goals; one of them is almost universally to limit the impact on wild lands. So to do that they try to force people to put driveways and houses clustered together, so that while all the lots may have 5+ acres, the houses are close enough together that the bulk of that acreage is 'intact'.that's what i'm dealing with currently, my house is on 3.3 acre lot, and the neighbor house (north of us) is 100' away or so; and they have 5.8 acres. i can hear them talk on their back patio, i can hear their faggot little dog bark. we were able to buy the lot to the south of us; thank god, as having neighbors on both sides of us sounds like hell on earth. (east of us another lot, separated by a road, and west is a few thousand acres of BLM forest; so at least there's that.)
>>2252469For 4 people I believe that 5-10 acres of mostly workable land would be plenty for subsistence.
>>2252486that sucks. Do deed restrictions prevent people from building farther down their property to 'stagger' the houses? or is it just not worth the price for a long driveway to most people
>>2252499not sure, i'm in lane county oregon; and they basically tell you where you can and cannot place a house i.e. they won't sign off on your site plan until their conditions are met: one of which is "is the impact to wildlife minimized" and the other "is the most productive timber land preserved" (we built in f2 zoned forest, i'm sure for ag land it would be the same though.)
>>2252519I'm in texas where, as far as I can understand the law, outside of city limits there's no permitting authority. And the city limits of small towns are very small.Then again I've seen some boundary lines beyond the city limits on zoning maps which I think might be a sound ordinance thing? not sure.
>>2252537godspeed anon. i will say though, having neighbors is absolute shit; especially in the country. every little sound carries infinitely more than in town.if you are able to build where you want, be cognizant that fact that no matter where you place your house, unless you control the adjacent property, some asshole will try to build as close to your house as they can.
Trying to get by with the minimum amount of land is dumb. The land is going to be the cheapest part of the endeavor, and you're always going to wish you had more.I have 8 acres. I wish I had more. There's an asshole that opened a winery 1/4 mile away, and I get to hear drunks at 60 dB at the side of my house every weekend. I dream of one day buying at least a square mile of land, and building a house in the middle.
With the way the world seems headed I would say any land you can get it a good amount.
>>2252557This is pretty disappointing to hear anon, I really thought 10 acres would be enough to get by without neighbors. Is it the shape of the property? For example if it was a square lot would it be acceptable?
When grown healthy adults can average 80lbs - 240lbs yeah you have different needs. Having 10 acres in Arizona a bit different that 10 acres in Minnesota
>>2252557Really isn't hard to plant trees to dampen the noise. And add a wall and green house. Be like my neighbors and just rev up your Hardly Ablesons and never ride your motorcycle, just VRRRRROOO VROOM *backfires* for 20 minutes e ery few days
>>2252486>>2252557>REEE OTHER PEOPLE EXISTHow anti-social.
>>2252486I hate you spoiled land fags.>cries in japanese.
Depends on location / zone. Im Zone 6b. If you have no experience in self sustainability, you probably won't be able to get 90%. I have about a acre in production. Orchard trees (dwarf trees for variety) a raspberry patch with 5 or so varieties, asparagus patch, currants, strawberries, 2 beehives, mushroom logs a regular garden and a root cellar. Are you going to heat with wood? I've heard you need 10 acres of woods depending where you are at. Once you get into livestock then you have to invest in machinery and fencing, and you're better off just getting chickens and buying beef and pork. Livestock is a commitment. Start Small. Learn how to preserve food. If you have any questions ask me.
>>2252591this comment x100we have thousands of acres of land that produces what hundreds of acres does other places.
I don't know but my only experience gardening is basically balcony herbs and greens because that's the only space I gotCan only imagine what growing root crops on an acre or more could provide you
>>2252585It's not the shape of the properties, or the siting of the houses. The topography doesn't help, we're each on a hill so there's nothing but air between us. But he's not my nearest neighbor, there's a half dozen other houses closer that would be even more annoying if they were occupied by assholes. 10 acres really isn't all that much space. It's only sufficient if you have good neighbors.>>2252592I've planted a hedgerow, and I've been negotiating with him. Every time he fires up his PA system, I pull out my target pistol and shoot a brick of .22LR. He's a stubborn bastard, but his clientele don't enjoy drinking to the sound of gunfire, so his behavior has been improving.
I have 10 acres, in a D shape, with my house near the middle. All other plots around me are also 10+. This is one thing to consider if you are about other people, if all the plots are relatively large things get spread out, but if you have a huge plot but within 1/4 mile there's a bunch of small ones, you can still be near a bunch of people. On a bunch of 10+ acre plots, your neighbors would really have to be complete animals for there to be a problem. As far as growing food, this is impossible to answer, even in the same area, land is different. One thing I didn't even think about but got super lucky on is the topology - you can lose hours a day of daylight and make growing much harder just by living slightly down in a canyon or having some tall trees occlude your sunlight. In some areas though you may want this if it's super hot. Hunting on 10 acres with a rifle isn't really feasible, with a bow you can get lucky but what passes across your land is going to be luck based even if you border National Forest/BLM.
>>2252469you probably want 10.It depends on whats available. If you can get 10 acres but it's built into a hill with a shitload of stones and the groundwater smells like rotten eggs, you're going to hate your life.The other thing is you need to be realistic about what you can accomplish doing 100% of the labor yourself, because your wife will probably have a job in town so the bills get paid and your kids will probably suck and not be involved in farming.one acre is a lot to maintain for vegetable farming, and impossible to harvest alone by hand.If you want livestock, you have find out if the land can support many animals, and if the city will allow you to keep them. you also need to find a method to slaughter and process them, or pay someone to do it for you.look, your question is fucking impossible. the only way to get answers is to examine the plots you plan to buy, and look at farming operations in the area to see how they get along.
>>2252605>Are you going to heat with woodit's probably going to be on the grid for the sake of getting a loan
>>2252681>your wife will probably have a job in town so the bills get paid and your kids will probably suck and not be involved in farming.I don't have a family so that probably doesn't make a difference
>>2252687Heating with wood and being on the grid are not mutually exclusive. I heat with wood primarily, on 10 acres, and the land is self sustaining in that department, just all the fallen oak + dropping a few trees a year is enough. I think the anon's question was aiming at whether you think you will be able to heat your house off what your own land produces.
>>2252687You don't need to be off grid to heat with wood. I have an on grid cabin I heat with wood I glean from the National Forest it's inside of.
>>2252690>>2252691what kind of furnace do you have? I'm under the impression that radiant heat will be awful for the building I had in mind which is L shaped
>>2252677>.22LRGay. Pull out an AR or deer rifle and really let the thunder roar
>>2252499It 100% depends on the area
>>2252585>I really thought 10 acres would be enough to get by without neighborI have 20 acres and still hear my neighbors dogs which is annoying as fuck. As well as any big machines they run…which are a lot. But I am on a hill above them so maybe the noise travels up more? >>2252691This. I have an on grid cabin that is primarily heated by a wood stove. >>2252692My cabin also has a propane heater for kitchen/eating area…works well for that area but will not heat the entire cabin
>>2252486More likely it’s that having houses closer together is more convenient and cheaper for utilities to be dug and laid
>>2253036i'm sure that's part of if; but bear in mind if someone is going through the trouble time and expense of building a new house on a plot of bare land, the added cost of some extra cabling and use of a trencher for a longer utility run is pretty minor all things considered -- and no one in their right mind would move miles out of town just to have neighbors on top of them; it completely defeats the purpose of moving out into the country.That said, every state is different, as is every county; and a lot of the decision making is done by low level peasants at the county level (and their biases and preferences get rolled into the decision making process). For example when we built our house the planner who came out to measure the fire breaks kind of half assed it, we were within the 100' range, but 'barely'. Meanwhile our neighbors who were also having their fire break assessed got a newer planner who measured everything to a 'T'. End result, we were able to proceed with our build, whereas our neighbors were forced to basically clearcut their entire property (and the county wasn't able to get back out to check for another 5 fucking months)All that said, Oregon for example has a bunch of land use 'goals' they try to enforce during the planning process, for example:https://www.oregon.gov/lcd/OP/Pages/Goal-4.aspx (and i doubt it's the only state with rules like that -- rules which akes it kind of tricky to place your house in a site that's best for 'you'.)
>>2252677>I pull out my target pistol and shoot a brick of .22LRBased as fuck. Fuck loud obnoxious cunts.
>>2252591>healthy adults>80lbsShoo oompa loompa shoo
>>2253017so at 10000 an acre it sounds like nobody can really afford to get away from anyone.
>>2253168I forget people here don't have what it takes to ever have children let alone a partner to help around the farm.Yeah, petite women can be 80lbs and healthier than you're fat ass
>>2253180The fuck? I work at Amazon and have saved $140,000 meanwhile paying outlandish rent for 9 years as an adult
>>2252469Fuck everyone, buy the amount you want, and will actively use.This is the only truth.
>>2253133Aw yes waste rimfire while pinpointing where to go l00t when stfh and you want an abundance of rimfire and nice veggies to plunder
>>225318010k an acre? that's a bargain for most of the land you'd actually want or be able to use.>inb4 link to shithole desert property with no water, no roads, no services
>>2253202so? that makes my point further.
>>2253209>2253209i'd hope that at some point banks would treat bare land as a securable asset (like a mortgage); but alas, here we are. Because yeah, trying to buy bare land is going to be a cash only endeavor, unless you get very lucky with a bank, and even then their terms are likely going to be shit.The upshot though is if you can swing a construction loan you can roll the land purchase into that amount and make a tidy profit on the finished house.but this board in particular has a completely unrealistic idea of what it takes to 'go offgrid' or whatever in in 2021. Other than maybe in alaska; the idea that you can buy a few acres and roll your winnie up there and build a house with your bare hands is just wishful thinking. there is so much red tape and hurdles put up specifically to prevent the ted-shed type living it's unreal. everything from mandating mains power, water, and road access to minimum dwelling sizes and building codes.you could roll the dice and build your ted shed without planning approval of permits; but there is a very high chance that you'll get busted and either fined to the point you have to sell your land, or forced to bulldoze it.
>>2253214I think the only construction loan that works for something 'off grid' would be the USDA one. You cannot make over 120k a year and get that loan. The total cost is just too high for someone making less than this to afford it in the first place.You would have to seriously limit the size of the lot or buy something already built, run down or halfway done.
>>2253183>Healthy>Hep C whoreriiiight.
>>2252469there is a lot of abandoned old farm yards that are 10 acres in size. about 700ftx700ft i think. they are usually surrounded by large farms. so you arent close to any people.personally i would by as much pasture land as i could afford and rent it for grazing.
>>2252889>Gay. Pull out an AR or deer rifle and really let the thunder roarAt that point, it would be cheaper to sue him.>>2253201Oh, no, now my neighbors, who all own guns, have been reminded that I also own guns! Whatever will I do?
>>2252469It really really depends on your land. The soil of your land matters. The flatness matters. The climate matters. The altitude matters. The land around it matters. The location matters. Your neighbors matter. You could by a tiny plot of highly productive land surrounded by people who own hunting/preserve land and allow you to use their land. You could by a beautiful property and be told you cant use it because some dumbass endangered animal is squatting on it.
>>2253292>Catalogeven though this point has been brought up a million times its for a good reason. Simply put,Location. Location. Location.
>>2253214Stop looking in shit states. The only states worth looking into I'd you want to larp as off-grid in the main 48 are Wyoming, Montana, and the rural portions of Missouri. The rest is run by leftoids and boomers with their building codes
>>2253329Montana is going the way of any other cali invaded state rn
>>2252469I've got 20 in a remote area and have never even been to the other side. I want to build a giant minibike course, though, so that can use the whole property. I think it would be different if I was into farming.
>>2253334>Only state to ban vaxx mandates>First Republican control trifecta in 20 years>Voter fraud laws>Anti-Califag legislation>Repealed all gun control this yearMontana's looking up
They partition land into long strips for access. If they made those plots square then each one in the back would need their own access road.Houses are usually grouped at the same property edge because of utilities. Electric in my county is first 300 feet for free, after that it's $4 a foot overhead, $7 a foot underground. Add sewer and water and you could be looking at an extra $50k to put your house deeper in the property.1 cow or horse takes (3) separate 1 acre plots. Cycle between plot 1 & 2- forage in one while the other regrows. 3rd plot is to harvest hay to store for winter.1 acre is just a big yard.5 acres is shop space and garden. 10 acres and you stop smelling your neighbors farts.25 acres you think you're secluded.50 acres you are secluded.100 acres you declare independence and raise the flag of Pretoria.
>>2252593That's half the point of this fucking board.
>>2253201SHTF won't happen and your neighbours won't do shit if it does. You have guns to stop them l00ting. Loud obnoxious cunts with no consideration for those around him deserve worse than sporadic gunfire.
>>2253180Meh. My property borders FS on 2 sides. I Walk out my door and into 1000s of acres of wilderness. Never see anyone when I do.
>>2253456Dont listen to this guy, he's the kinda guy that will tell you that a 60 HP Kubota is what you'll need to farm 5 acres. Buy as much land as you can afford. 1 acre of prime ground, some woods and chickens will make you more self reliant. I have a plastic mulch layer which cuts down on weeding and i pretty much just pick vegetables after i plant them. A 200 ft row of potatoes put a couple of hundred pounds of potatoes in my root cellar. If you have no experience in agriculture, you're probably not going to grow grain and livestock right away.
>>2253183An 80lb woman isn’t gonna be doing any farm work lolWe know why you really want a “petite” woman>pic rel
>>2253603Not that guy, but I’ve actually been looking at a 60hp Kubota for my 5 acres since I have a lot of dirt to move and some small streams to dig to direct water, as well as plans to buy the 5 acres next to me when the boomers living there die
>>2253585it's a wonderful feeling isn't it anon?this was a 30 second hike from my backdoor.
>>2253607>he's never backpacked through vietnam(okay, neither have i, but i imagine the average lady processing rice is probably 4'10" and 80 pounds)
>>2253603>I have a plastic mulch layerClearly, you're the man to listen to.
>>2253607>An 80lb woman isn’t gonna be doing any farm work lolWhat's the minimum bodyweight to pull a weed or pick a tomato?
>>2253622It is. My backyard
God you fucks are dense and fat.The whole part of me saying 80lbs-240lbs is that in survival mode you may very well become severely underweight and possibly resort to rationing food. 80lbs is realistic for a lot of adults across the world, I knew I should have mentioned teenage or adolescents. Smaller, older people only need like 900 calories a day.And I put 240 cuz I know a lot of you corn fed hillbillies overeat every single day and poop like Saint Bernards and need >4,000 calories every day to go plant more corn and pick cobs.So yeah a family of 4 small South East Asians need the same food supply as 1 average fatboi glasses wearing Reddit user
>>2253681pretty pretty, whereabouts is that?
>>2253628>>2253635Sounds like glorified gardening.Unlike you manlets, I have a big penis and need a woman who can carry a square bale and is larger than a 60L pack
>>2253456Spoiler Alert at 16k you get crippling pressure to keep up that tax payment
>>2253735This mfer gets it
>>2253622This is the shit that gets me. No matter how far you are aware from them you can still see your damn neighbors. 6 miles away from my nearest one and I can still fucking see them.
>>2253835So move to Alaska where you can literally have a whole mountain between you and your closest neighbor
>>2253836I like traveling around the CONUS too much to ever do that. I just build another house in my valley or something.
>>2253633Once you go plastic you don't go back. Drip Irrigation is sweet AF.
>>2252593>How anti-social.- /out/
>>2252469It depends if you're planning on building a settlement, cash cropping or just having a farm.A farmer might just grow monoculture, it's far more efficient and makes machinery affordable.You're going to sell crops in season, and hire labor for the harvest.cash croppers will brow their own food- but also grow cash crops to pay for basic goods and tools.Settlements are totally isolated, and need to rapidly expand in order to remain viable- you would need to have 300 people before you could replenish metal, leather and wooden goods due to how many low tech farmers it takes to feed even a single miner.Will you have anyone you can hire, anyone you can sell things to, or are you really planning on rebuilding society?>>2252557This.There's more land out there than anyone cat turn a profit working.our Kapitalist society means it's not simply enough to feed yourself- you have to pay tax in a de-valuing currency.Lots of land could support settlement, just not taxpaying settlers who produce real goods instead of a Kapital profit.>>2252605The wood thing is a COPE, we've been depleting the worlds forests since we walked on two legs, most of the world used to be forest. What happened in the past was a settlement stayed in one place till nobody could be bothered carting timber to it, it was gradually abandoned and moved somewhere else- that's a generational change.We might burn a ton of hardwood a year, we could easily burn 2 if we used it for cooking, and 4 if we processed things on site.While you can't run a sustainable forestry operation- neither could the Romans.You've probably got a lifetime's supply of wood in what you cut and what will replenish in your lifetime.Our lumber yard just buys trees from people who have unused land, while you may not own the land they don't need the wood on their land at all.
>>2252690It's a terrible waste to burn oak anon, shame on you.Have you considered tarring and curing the oak trunks? These are worth thousands of dollars with almost no work.>>2253049Fuck the planning department, living on your own land is your god-given right, and they've got no business stopping people even if that means homes are at fire risk.>>2253456Source: my ass.Do I have one hammer to hammer nails and a second one to pull them out?chickens basically keep themselves, rabits and pidgeons just need food dumped on them.A pig is a CHAD animal, it eats half your household waste, half your spoiled crops, and all your surplus- if you grow too much of something to harvest you just let the pig eat it. There's no point keeping sheep, cows or horses unless you actually have grazing land- you do it because a cow is like a pumpkin that waters itself and rats can't eat.
>>2252469>over optimist hippy types that say you can feed a family of four with .25 acresIf you're talking north american acres (which you probably are - who else is retarded enough to use acres without stating the location?), you actually can. You just need real good soil (or lots of compost) and the ability to hunt for your meat. I'm doing the same thing in Germany on 800m2 (which is about .6 local acres) for a few years now.But really, if you an afford more land, go for it. If you don't need it, you can still rent it out and make passive income. Better than leaving the money in the bank.Also, in case it's not obvious, I'm talking about growing your own food. Not making money of the land.
>>2252557This. Buy as much as you can afford, never heard anybody complain about having too much land, and it's almost always a good investment. I'm on 50 acres and always let the neighbor that owns the 40 acre wood lot next to my acreage that if he ever wants to sell let me know first. Unfortunately I have five neighbors on 1/2 acre lots all along the front side of my property, and all within sight of my front step. The slight lack of privacy in my front yard sucks, but i cant complain too much as they're all based neighbors, one old couple is always baking and cooking us shit in exchange for plowing their little '30 driveway in the winter, they all love my dogs and free range ducks and chickens, always feeding the birds and giving treats. Other neighbor runs a small custom fab/restoration business on his property and is always giving me off cuts and sweet things and materials he nabs from his work, let's me use his lathe and milling machine etc etc, other neighbor and I grow some pot on my land, he does all the work and gives me half the yield. Other neighbor has been a lifelong friend, is a good carpenter, were always trading labor and shit on projects and hes always up to lend a hand, have a beer, or go for a bird hunt put back. I let close neighbors have acsess to the rear of my acreage as I have about 1500' of waterfront with a dedicated road to acsess it, a couple of them will fish or launch their canoes and kayaks. One neighbor I let duck hunt down there whenever he wants. Solitude can be nice in ways, but when tough times come a community is what will get you through. It pays to be good to your neighbors
>>2253960>who else is retarded enough to use acres without stating the location?
>>2253846You're poisoning your soil. Mulch breaking down into soil is a feature, not a bug.
>>2253846cardboard my man. due to covid nonsense and having everything shipped, we've started saving the boxes and using those as a weed barrier.breaks down over time as well, and is.. free (for all intents and purposes)
>>2254042Cardboard works, but it looks shitty, it's a pain to install, and it could be recycled into a higher use.If you're anywhere near a suburban area, chipped wood waste is going to be available inexpensively, sometimes free. It's much easier to install around plants. Get a bedding fork if you have a lot of space to cover.
>>2254047oh, I can make my own wood chips (I have a wood chipper and basically live on a woodlot)my process for paths and whatnot around the property is:till the soil and rake it to get rid of the roots (so many blackberry bushes here) and level it out as much as possiblecover it with cardboard (wetting it via hose so it conforms to whatever contours are thereand then cover with a layer of pine wood chipsIn an average week we get 2 or 3 deliveries, so we have gobs and gobs of cardboard. Dunno, it seems like a pretty good use of the cardboard all things considered, definitely better than putting down plastic sheets.
>>2254051Have you tried applying wood chips without cardboard? Cardboard works to suppress plants without tilling, but if you're already tilling, the cardboard isn't doing anything.
>>2253716>healthy adult >severely underweight
>>2254083yeah, the cardboard acts as a barrier to keep the wood chips from sinking into the ground and getting super slippery (this is in regards to walking paths and other non-planting areas; we have obscenely heavy clay soil in the PNW; so it turns into a mud-pit very quickly)but that said, even with tilling blackberry bushes start cropping up within a week or so in the summer; tasty little buggers but holy shit they do take over very quickly left unchecked.
>>2254088I'm probably failing to appreciate how much effort it takes to control blackberries where you live. I have to make an effort to keep them alive here.
>>2254035>"Mommy, look, I posted a meemay!"
>>2254091it's a tradeoff for sure; i have ~30 pounds of frozen black berries from this past season; after letting probably 95% of them go to waste. We're on 7 acres of reprod timberland which was last harvested in 2008. Basically until the trees get to a certain height, there's enough sunlight to just let the blackberry and other underbrush go absolutely nuts.i don't have a pic handy, but there's probably an acre or so that was grubbed out during creation of our initial firebreak in '19 that's now completely overgrown with blackberry bushes well over 6' high.
>>2254102I thought those were illegal in the E-ew
>>2254110he's not insulting the new Europeans or their super special magic book, so it's okay.
>>2254042Ill take plastic mulch any day over letting cardboard rot around my plants. The plastic comes up and gets disposed of. God only knows whats in the cardboard and ink.
>>2254369>God only knows whats in the cardboard and inkcellulose?
>>2253681so uh, what do you do all day?
>>2252469Depends on where you are man. There are plots in northern NV, a square mile of cheap desolate sage brush. But you’re not growing shit and you aren’t hunting shit. You’re gonna need a well because it doesn’t rain in the high desert and the big game around here cover a ton of distance to water and feed, nearest civilization is wells, wendover and elko. 10 acres where it actually rains is a game changer.
>>2252469> hunt 90% of your foodThe amount of land you need for that is ridicolous and impractical. Believe it or not, anmials relocate if there is hunting pressure.If the only lifestock you keep is chickens and maybe a pig or two, a family of four would need roughly 9 acres to produce all your food yourself, given you dont want to buy high yield seeds and chemical fertilizer. That is without some small wooded are to have firewood and building material. If you want sustainable wood production you will need roughly 2-3 acres for fire wood and 2 acres for building material. If you want a horse to help you plow and draw carts, you will need roughly 20 pounds of hay per day, I dont know exactly how many acres you need for that without chemical aids, but with fertilizers etc that would be around 3 acres per Horse plus maybe 0.5 for additional horse food you would want to grow.If you want to keep bigger and/or more lifestock, things get exponentionally more complicated and your operation gets really big really fast.
>>2254568Stupid fuck posting numbers assuming place will have trees let alone grass
>>2254570Obviously noone will try farming in a desert or above the treeline in the mountains.
>>2254572>Obviously noone will try farming in a desert
>>2254576For subsistence farming if there are other options? Of course you can also grow stuff on board of ships, that doesn't make it a good idea.
>>2254579Desert land is available cheaper due to the larger infrastructure investment and higher risk.
>>2254594>Desert land is available cheaper Do you think it is a generally intelligent move to start subsistence farming in an area where you don't have sufficient access to water? Especially given that there is active desertification going on around the world which will influence rainfall even more. If you spend just half an hour researching what the challenges of subsistence farming look like, you will find out that buying a piece of desert is very likely the most retarded thing you can do. Also buying land that is steppe at this time. You will likely move to a place that does not have high risk of desertification or flooding. You will move to land where you can actually grow a variety of plants without needing to resort to chemical fertilizer or specialized seeds you cannot reproduce yourself. Also you will want to stay in the temperate parts of the northern hemisphere, because you will need a suffiently long planting season to actually grow stuff.
>>2254599If your plans are centered around exploiting a deposit of fossil water, you can be largely immune to changes in weather and rainfall patterns that more temperate areas will be strongly impacted by.
>>2254601Good luck with maintaining the well without bigmachinery.
>>2253940Source is I'm a chicken farmer you fucking basement dwelling neckbeard.
>>2253603Dude I run a 50 year old 18hp Mitsubishi tractor. What issue exactly do you have with my post? An acre is 210 feet x 210 feet. I can throw a baseball farther than that.
>>2254622It is funny to see how little they know about farming but somehow think it's just like screaming for mom to bring them poptarts.>>2254601Add: If there is a deposit and it is your only source of water, how intelligent do you think that investment would be? Do you know how much water you will need and how quickly your "stock" will disappear? If you plan on putting your life on the line, because subsitence farming is exactly that, do you think any of the things you have suggested are viable? Have you ever even grown a tomato from seeds you have produced yourself? I am sorry to tell you, but you live in Lalaland.
>>2253938>The wood thing is a COPE, we've been depleting the worlds forests since we walked on two legs, most of the world used to be forest.it's true, but medieval villages also curated their forests with intense care. You at least want them around for as long as you can keep them.
>>2254627If you have to sustain a family, not having a sustainable source of energy is beyond dumb. Just because idiots destroy their own habitat you don't have to do it too. You can actually calculate the long term sustainable amout of wood consumption per acre. If people wouldn't have figured out how to do that, Europe would be a desert.
>>2254625What are you going to do if it doesn't rain one year?
>>2254629Very likely die. The odds of it not raining in the temperate parts of the planet are practically zero. Thats why you don't try doing agriculture in places that are not suited for it. Like a desert. Or the steppes. You go to areas where the climate corresponds to the places where people are successfully growing stuff for some centuries. You will therefore need sufficient rain, no long dry periods etc. You can look stuff like that up, it is no secret. And if it doesn't rain in the places humans are growing the mass of their food at this time, the entire planet will be a desert and you will die, even if you have access to water.
>>2254634>it's rained here in the past, therefore it will always rain here in the futureHow do you think fossil water deposits formed in deserts?
>>2254639The very reduced answer is iceage. And because there is a widening of the arid zone you think it is a good idea to start farming in the desert? Go ahead, noone is stopping you. But I can tell you that it is likely the most retarded idea you ever had.
>>2254624The average retard from the city that just watched the "Biggest Little Farm" and a bunch of youtube videos doesn't need 100+ acres. All these people think they are going to be self sufficient with grain and livestock with no experience. Also using cardboard for mulch is fucking stupid.
>>2253483The countryside as a place of peace, quiet and isolation is an urbanfag delusion. There has never been a time in history where rural people lived in isolation rather than communities, and the countryside isn't just a place where you can play explorer, it's also the workplace of lots of people, and those people use loud heavy machinery.
>>2255249This.Friend of mine has a carpentry shop in the middle of nowhere. More and more people are buying up the houses near him as a weekend cottage and have started complaining.
>>2252690Why on earth would you cut entire oaks when you can just coppice?
>>2252469Unless you move to the middle of nowhere on land that would be overly expensive to level and build on then in 30 years your 10 acres will be surrounded by shopping malls and subdivisions and developers will either make you offers you can't refuse and you'll sell or they'll stuff the pockets of local politicians until they pass so many ordinances and raise taxes so high and harass you with the local cips so much that you'll leave in disgustLand is the ONLY tangible asset and the only true measure of wealth which is why it is so heavily regulated and taxedTo avoid the sprawl for any length of time you literally have to move to the middle of nowhere and have 100 acres or more that you use and also have neighbors that have hundreds of acres and that you maintain a civil relationship with
>>2255403>they'll stuff the pockets of local politicians until they pass so many ordinances and raise taxes so high and harass you with the local cips so much that you'll leave in disgustcouldn't be mehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb1hQfo4nFY
>>2253983decent post, what country do you live in?
>>2255532it really really depresses me that someone is trying to make money out of killdozer
How much would you factor in future and current population of a state when looking for properties? Ohio seems like a perfect homestead/farm state based on hardiness zone, precipitatioin, homeschool laws, and land prices. But it's a pretty populated state and I fear that that will only increase in the future. Should I bite the bullet now and go to a more sparsely populated state despite worse climate conditions?The prices are pretty similar for 5-50 acre plots. But the property access is way worse in the more remote states.
>>2255403>>2255593that already partly answers my question but I'm not sure how much the trade off is worth it to me as I don't really mind neighbours (?)
>>2255593>looking for properties>Ohio>>2255594>neighbours
>>2255613>>2255594>I don't really mind neighboursOr what are you trying to tell me?
>>2255593Climate plays a huge role of you want to do subsitence farming. Not just averages but also the extremes. Neighbours are a good thing. You can help each out or trade some produce. Also, you might want your children to find partners to marry some day. And should the apocalypse come, facing it alone is the worst thing you can do.
>>2255626>neighboursI've learned british english in school you mongrel, don't act like you don't know what I am talking about>>2255630yeah, that's true. The shizo in me tells me to go into the middle of no where and the normie tells me to buy some land in a comfy area where I can more easily start out and where I could meet a future wife. I could buy a backup property somewhere else though.
>>2255639>I've learned british english in school you mongrelGoodness, you don't say? I had no idea. None at all.
>>2255645m8 I've studied the whole day which puts me in a borderline retarded state until I've slept it off. I finally get what you were talking about in your first post. I'm from central Europe but a dual citizen with US citizenship. I don't want to stay here though as the kind of life I want is not possible here. I'm also politically pretty far from my fellow man here, when I mention things like homeschooling or farming on a non-astronomically large scale I only get looked at weirdly. I don't want to get too political here but after Corona and the elections I want to make sure that the German government will never receive a single cent in taxes from me (not that it's better when it's funneled to Israel by paying taxes to the US but oh well).
>>2255650Good luck with that, but it's better to be poor in Germany than the US.
>>2255653Thanks! I guess I could always go back. But I've saved up a middle to high five figure sum and I wouldn't mind working part or full time as a software dev or something along those lines once I've set everything up. I could also treat the property like a project in my free time, depending on how much money I have left after the land purchase.
>>2255639>I've learned british english in school you mongrelQuite astounding to hear. Pray tell, what does brings you to such a forlorn corner of this here mongolian conversation forum specializing in the noble and time-proven art of basketweaving?
>>2255668I'm chuffed to bits that the mere mention of the superior form of the English language, British English that is, has steered us away from the typical chinwag and encourages to participate in a more sophisticated conversation. As to what brings me here - I have to admit that the familiarity of the /hgm/ threads keeps me from wandering off most of the times - it was through sheer happenstance that the nature of my question, that had already formed in my magnificent mind, seemed to be more closely related to the issues brought up in this thread. An rest assured, I've already found partial closure to the point in question.
>>2253201If you have to loot rimfire when shtf you're ngmi anyways
>>2253681wow a whole bunch of rocks and dirt, cool!
>>2253846>plasticyeah i enjoy lowering my sperm count too
>>2253940>>2255255Oaks die or catastrophically fail all the time where I live. I don't drop healthy oaks. The tree in the pic was killed by The Beatles.
>>2255738Ikr this guy doesn’t subirrigate from a seepage pond.
>>2253983never have i seen a comfier post
I'm just wanting to start out buying some land. Northern Arkansas has lots going for only triple digits. Now I know buying border land in Arizona/New Mexico is retarded, but why would Arkansas be so cheap?
>>2254608Can you not just hand dig it?
>>2255915I'd also love to hear more about Arkansas. The property listings I've looked at so far seemed pretty good.
>>2255593>How much would you factor in future and current population of a stateNearly 80% weighting for me. Any state that is run by leftoids, or is only marginally run by Republicans, is a disqualification for me. There's no point in setting up a homestead in a communist state that makes hunting you legal for sport and taxes you into the ground for more free shit for their pets, bans firearms and self defense, etc and on and on. Despite its good climate that rules out the Pacific Northwest for me - the political landscape may as well be buying a property with a dozen nuclear waste sarcophaguses on it.
>>2256053But what states are left then? I don't like the demographic of the south eastern states and places like Maine or Minnesota voted blue. The state that I always end up with is AK
>>2256055Somehow I also think that it might be good to move there since it will keep out those who are "weak". Although the property market there is fucked IMO
>>2256055Wyoming, Montana, Missouri, Arkansas, Tennessee are the ones I've narrowed it down to over the past 12 months. These are states firmly R controlled (Democrats have less than 1/3rd of the seats of all chambers of all the legislatures of these states), are unlikely to be influenced left in the near future, and have rock solid gun rights/self defense laws, anti-voter fraud laws, land that can actually be cultivated in some way (Wyoming is iffy in this category only certain parts of the state are useful, most of it is a desert) and friendly off-grid laws. These are the only states I would consider. All other states suffer a fatal flaw such as effectively illegal off-grid, Democrats at or near control of the state, extremely burdensome tax rates, etc.
>>2253214Obviously you don't go off grid in a place where you have to have building permits and a connection to the grid. It would literally be the opposite of off grid.
>>2255932No. When we are talking about fossil deposits you really need to dig deep. Like several hundred meters deep. If any part of your pump system breaks, you cant even get it out without very heavy machinery. Add to that that a significant part of water deposites are actually salt water. It is not a very good idea. Why would you build a farming operation on a finite amount of water in the first place?
>>2252602This lol. Amerilards don't know how good they have it.
>>2252469>tfw you will never be rural Canadian
>>2256130>rural Canada is a thing of the past once Trudeau has raised the population to over 100 million via immigration until 2030
>>2256058>Missouri, Arkansas, Tennesseeon the hardiness and precipitation map they have pretty good scores. The laws also seem to be based. What's the catch? Too boring for most people? The nature itself?
>>2256180The rural regions where you will want to be shopping for land are economically blighted or just plain non-existent. You will not be able to rely on the local job market if you need secondary income that isn't remote in some way. Tennessee has high sales tax but no income tax. Arkansas and Missouri are very mediocre in the tax department though if you're truly going all in if you don't actually make much of anything the law considers income then there's nothing to tax. Arkansas is somewhat vulnerable to hurricanes. I have spreadsheets and your particular weighting depends on which place exactly you'd prefer. I'm partial to the absolute nothingness of Montana/Wyoming. The challenges are considerable in comparison to Missouri/Arkansas/Tennessee in regards to growing season and water access though.
>>2256181Missouri seems to be $30k-50k for 10-25 acres. The timber on the parcels looks pretty usuable as well and the access to roads is good too. I'm not sure if it would be smarter to pay cash for such a property or to (owner) finance a bigger property. I could stay where I am and work to pay it off, only fly over to fell trees to dry them and make plans for the future. But I wouldn't want to buy a property I haven't seen which is a total PITA because I'm not even remotely close. Thank you for your suggestions, I'll definitely have a closer look at those states...
This thread has really made me appreciate land costs in my area. I couldn't expand the family ranches the way I have in basically any of these locations besides the SW anons areas. That being said its a half hearted dream of mine to move to NM and swap ranches for something double our size.
>>2256081>Why would you build a farming operation on a finite amount of water in the first place?Do you plan on living forever? Because I don't. My lifestyle is built around consuming limited resources in an unsustainable manner, as is yours. My concern is that those resources don't run out before I do.
>>2256224>not planning on living off of photosynthesesngmi
>>2256224I do have children, so my life has other priorities.
>>2256239You're just a mindless breeder. None of your plans matter, your children will suffer during this extinction event. All you can hope for is that your offspring are as mindless as you are.
>>2256243Keep this freak away from the nuclear launch sites. Your demoralization is complete. Nothing left to do but segregate from "people" like you and hope the society we create has better defences than you did. You're lost to the hellscape you chose to make.
>>2256181Very helpful info. Appreciated, anon. Sevierville area of Tennessee always catches my eye.
>>2253628>(okay, neither have i, but i imagine the average lady processing rice is probably 4'10" and 80 pounds)You forgot that she's also 80 years old.>Pic related, Dak Lak VietnamThey're drying rice on the road to make it easier to husk, I think.
I spent the majority of my life in 3 of the top 10 largest cities in the U.S. I escaped and built a cabin on 15 acres in the middle of a forest.#1) buy as much land as you can afford.#2a) due diligence. Land is worthless without water. A friend bought land about an hour outside of Las Vegas. Well company said "we can drill to 2,500 feet and MIGHT hit water"... That's $50,000 for a dry hole in the ground.#2b) A friend works for the health department and does inspections for septic systems. About once a month I hear a story of some poor sap who bought property on a flood plane or with compacted clay soil and they can't get approval for a septic system without a soil scientist engineering a system.
>>2256397>contMy nearest town is 247 people.Electric: $900.That includes a 200amp main outside with 4 sockets for well and such and a 32 breaker panel in the cabin, along with about 300 feet of 12/2 and light switches and sockets to wire the cabin (not including light fixtures, ceiling fans etc).I had to install my own service pole. Next county over installs one for free so that would have been about $250 cheaper.Septic: $2,0001,000 gallon 3 chamber concrete tank and 300 feet of leach field (75ft x 4). Septic is very common out here, soil is easy to dig and tank was made by installer. Other parts of the country where you have to ship in a tank with rocky ground and the price can hit $10,000 easily for the same thing. Remote locations can be $50,000.Well: $7,500300 feet deep with expansion tank. Water table is virtually a guaranteed hit here. Other places this price can sky rocket.
>>2256403what's your distance from that town?Septic for us was 20k, our 3 new wells were drilled about 800ft and cost us about 5k each after being subsidized from the gov. We are looking to build a newer "off grid" house but that's on the back burner behind the two other houses we are working on.
>>2256426About 5 miles to that town.About 30 miles to a town with a Walmart.
>>2256438we are not too dissimilar then. For me the nearest town is 13 miles away and 240 people. nearest Walmart is about 56 miles away.
>>2252602Move out to some shitty dying town and buy an old rice farm or three.
>>2252469You don't need much land to provide fruit/veg for a small family, 2 acres does it easily. If you want livestock, especially large livestock and want their food to come solely from the property you will need more, contingent on how long your growing season is. Add another 5-10 acres of good woods if you want sustainable firewood for a leaky house in a cold climate.The whole point of having a bunch of land is provide insulation from neighbors, and especially from new development40+ provides decent privacy if you are in the middle with decent trees, but you will definitely still hear any neighbors on the property lineAs others have said, you can mitigate this somewhat by having your property border national/state forest or some other development protected parcelsThis is a choice I'm currently making for myself, 10-20 acres in MO/AL/MS/AR/FL vs 50-100 acres in WV/E KY/ME. A lot less usable land in hilly E KY/WV, but plenty of privacy. ME (especially N ME) growing season is shit, but you can get 190 acres with serviceable septic/well already on the property for 130k.
>>2256803Planning is important.Get that hedge row planted along the property line in the first year you're there. Same with fruit/nut trees.Fences and out buildings can be added as needed over the years.Take care of landscaping, soil additives and ground leveling before driveways, fences, lawns etc. You don't want to tear up something you've lrready spent time and money on.
what's the smallest you could do goat or sheep on for milk on that you reasonably wouldn't have major worries?
Use Google Earth Pro or something similar and measure out a prospective land lot size in a public park. Then drive out there and walk it. Walk the perimeter first and then walk inside. Make multiple laps. Envision what you want and see if it fits. It's very difficult to tell how much land is enough unless you can "feel" it in person.
>>2257163https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb1167344.pdfIt all depends on how much and what quality of grazing material is present.
>>2256803>ME (especially N ME) growing season is shitMight as well go to Alaska instead of MA, MO, WY
>>2257395what keeps me away the most from ME is the wetlands, and states like WY and MO are rather dry
>>2257395I'd probably go between Bangor and Lincoln if I went.The only reason I mention N ME is because I could potentially transfer there for a couple years instead of just quitting my job to move.Similar to WV, I currently work there and establishing a homestead while I still have quality income seems like a decent idea.
>>2254599You just need the boomer mind set and fuck over future generationsfossilized water will take ages to depletesame with ground salinenation build cheap with plastics or other material that will degrade after your death>>2254790the cardboard stuff is hilarious, it does seem like trolling.also, DIY palette stuff is great. Yes i do in fact like stuff made from shitty wood soaked in chemicals, piss, shit, oils, pesticide, fungicides, and lead paint
>>2255547It was a Doc not really a movie.Just showed what happened and the Bullshit that went down.>6/10 worth a watch when bored.
>>2257460That doesn't sound too bad. I'd like to get a remote (software dev) job as well once things are more or less running.
according to this infographic a family of four would need about 2 acres. I am sure if don't know what you are doing or have bad years you would need more. if you use hydroponics, grow lights, and stack a fuckton on top of each other you might reach what those hippies say but I don't think you would have a varied diet as hydroponics doesn't work for all crops.
>>2258213how would you move around without stepping on your food
>>2252469What's the best way to get an idea of what an acre actually looks like? I don't have a concept of size for acres.>>2257201Oh, well I guess that answers my question.Any idea what the standard square piece of farmland you see off the side of the highway is?>>2252593>on 4chan>>2255488That's a nice poncho shitskin-san
>>2258467a football field is 1.33 acres. A walmart is a about 3.5 acres.
>>2252469you have to account for failed crops aswell. so def more than the minimum is always a good choice.
>>2252469The most important thing is to buy friends first, otherwise some bad luck and a sickness or injury and you'll starve anyway.
>>2258213>doesn't take into account feed for the animals.Shit infograhic
>>2258898reread the corn section> you would need at least 2640 sqft of corn to produce enough for your family and animals.
>>2257527If you're pallet is branded HT, it's not treated with chemicals, it's treated in a kiln with temperature. And most pallets have a reasonably short lifespan, so it's very rare to find one that's got lead paint, considering how long that lead paint has been banned. You do have to be concerned about what they carried and whether they were spilled on.I've got a shed I made from pallets and barn tin, with just a little bit of dimensional lumber to use for joints and the ridgeline and such, and I disassemble pallets for thin hardwood boards that I plane and square and have used for projects like tool boxes, drawer organizers, a home made tobagon sled, and fish spearing ice hut. They are hard on planer blades, and this only really makes sense because I have access to 20-30 free HT pallets a month.
>>2252469(This following is just speculation, since I'm just one of these city dwellers that wants to get out but I have thought of it)In general I would ignore trying to be as self-sufficient as possible unless I was alone on an island far away from civilisation.In your case I would only get as much land as I can afford it if there is little public land I can use and enjoy around me. So for example if I were in Canada with few people and lots of public land around me where I can hunt and fish easily, I wouldn't drain my finances. If you are somewhere, where everything around is fenced off - I read here, that Quebec and Texas tend to be that way, get more land obviously.A lot of ingredients that are the base for dishes, such as rice, potatoes and flour, can be bought in big quantities for a relatively small amount of money. Let's say a family of 6, 2 adults and 4 children would eat like 4 adults. 200g of Rice/adult/day (flour and potatoes are usually cheaper) ->70kg/adult/year->280kg/family/year. That would be around 500€/600$ a year, $ prices are just a guess, I'm a Europoor. In case of flour you could even go to costs of 100-200€/150-250$/year/family. So as a result I would rather use the space on more expensive stuff, be it animals or certain fruizs/vegetables.
>>2259093I'm a chicken farmer.A single chicken consumes just under a pound of grain products a week.That's ONE chicken.Just A chicken.According to that chart you need a 20'x15' garden JUST for that ONE chicken.
>>2259496don't we want to get away from corn fed meat? I once bred mealworms and locusts for my leopardgeckos. I think it wouldn't be that hard to feed the insects with the cuttings from vegetables and feed the chickens with the insects and other food waste.
>>2259600of course I think it would not be enough to substitute all the corn but it would sure cut down on it plus it would be more healthy for the chickens.
>>2252469Land in strips makes a lot of sense if you hunt, because more animals will pass through your strip.You don't need a lot of land to grow potatos and vegetables. I grew up with a 1000 square meter garden, and we grew everything ourselves and still had much lawn too.
>>2259496I don't see the issue. I crunched the numbers using 172 bushels (the average according to the internet probably very optimistic but I think the infographic is using optimistic numbers anyways) per acre and your 1 pound per chicken gives a little over 11 chickens in 2,640sqft of cornfields. Seeing that you said just under a pound and I imagine you are growing chickens for meat (which I would think is more grain intensive) I assume you could stretch it to 13 for egg laying hens. >but that gives you no corn for you or the other animals!I would also assume they are free ranging it and wouldn't need to use all the grain for the chickens as they would get bugs and etc.I assuming the pigs are mostly fed food scraps and I don't think the goats are going to eat the corn grains.also the infographic just says you are better off just feeding them grain that you bought at <$5 a bushel.I also think it is just giving you ballpark numbers and it's not trying to hold your hand to build a self sufficient lifestyle for yourself.