[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vm / vmg / vr / vrpg / vst / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / pw / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / vt / wsg / wsr / x / xs] [Settings] [Search] [Mobile] [Home]
Board
Settings Mobile Home
/o/ - Auto


Thread archived.
You cannot reply anymore.


[Advertise on 4chan]


File: TOM_ToyotaMiraiCar_v8-02.png (528 KB, 1975x1189)
528 KB
528 KB PNG
If automotive companies truly believe in a hydrogen future, why aren't they investing money into building out hydrogen filling stations and offering more hydrogen fuel cell vehicles?
>>
Where do you live? I bet it's somewhere that needs most of it's electricity and water shipped in. Where do you expect to get the hydrogen from?
>>
>>26290228
>Where do you expect to get the hydrogen from?
Isn't that up to companies to worry about?
>>
Toyota invested billions and it's been a disaster. None of the major issues have been solved, while BEV has advanced leaps and bounds and has far more advancement awaiting. Hydrogen is dead.
>>
>>26290240
It doesn't matter. The hydrogen would have to be produced locally because you can't transport it long distances. If you can't produce it with your own resources it's not a viable option, simple as.
>>
>>26290223
>let's build potential hydrogen bombs everywhere
How about no
>>
IIRC the energy expended in the process of producing and shipping the hydrogen is greater than the energy it takes to simply run an ICE. Remember there’s very little hydrogen in the air, so getting it requires electrolysis of water, which is a very energy-intensive process.
>>
>>26290263
Which can be done in areas with cheap or excess power generation, therefore transferring energy from energy rich areas to energy poor ones for vehicle use, yes. This is the point of hydrogen
>>
>>26290325
You can't realistically transport hydrogen so that's not going to work.
>>
>>26290223
Hydrogen makes sense in Japan.
Just not everywhere else.
>>
>>26290332
>no fresh water supply
>power stations at sea level
>>
>>26290329
Why not? They liquefy it for transport all the time. It’s a developing technology for sure, but so is most other “green tech”
>>
>>26290343
Even if you could transport it efficiently, generating it in the first place takes a stupidly huge amount of energy. If the goal is to not use ICE for the sake of not using ICE, then it’s fine I guess. If the goal is to reduce energy consumption or emissions, it’s pointless
>>
>>26290383
It’s not necessarily about reducing energy use, it’s about using the existing energy as fully as possible. Remember that power generation is a supply and demand problem. It provides another good way to use excess power (nuclear and renewables such as wind are very inconsistent compared to demand) when demand is low. Nothing else quite like it right now
>>
>>26290223
Imagine being a 1%er kike that wants all the goyim cattle to use public transportation, why on earth would you invest your own money on technology that would give those goyim a cheaper, cleaner means to continue self-commuting? They're pushing electric cause they know it's expensive, they know the majority can't afford it.
>>
>>26290405
There are very few places with excess power. Most grids are already at the limit with a 1% EV adoption rate. What's it going to be like with a 90% adoption rate? Why would there be an excess to make hydrogen with? And no it's not as easy as just adding more nuclear plants. The actual grid infrastructure needs upgrading.
>>
>>26290412
It’s for the places with excess power, as i said… unlike evs where everyone charges at roughly the same time on the same grid, hydrogen doesn’t have to use that grid, and it can be continually made, while EVs have to be charged at specific times
>>
>>26290420
Even if you used all excess power to make hydrogen constantly, it’s not enough for widespread adoption
>>
>>26290420
Anybody with excess power is already shipping it to people that need it. You think they're going to like it when that gets cut off to make hydrogen instead? Also there will be no such thing as peak and non peak times in the near future. You can look at the power station outputs and see that they don't vary that much from day to night.

I just know it's a bunch of cancerfornians trying to push hydrogen. The people with a heavily overloaded grid that need their water and power shipped in.
>>
>>26290424
I also said it was a developing technology. There is certainly room to improve the efficiency of every step along this chain, as with all new technologies. It offers unique capabilities compared to a battery EV, just needs to be worked on. I think we are done here
>>
>>26290223
There no point in hydrogen cars.
The only problem hydrogen solves is short fill times as opposed to long charge times. Solid state batteries solve this.
Hydrogen as a means to store excess energy from solar farms, feed grids during night might be a good idea.
>>
>>26290412
>The actual grid infrastructure needs upgrading.

That's less of a problem for hydrogen than it is for BEVs. Hydrogen you can just park your nuke plant beside an electrolysis facility or natural gas refinery. Fuck the grid.

Hydrogen is the long play, in any case. Power generation and grid capacity will need to be solved for BEVs first.

Hydrogen is objectively superior to BEV if you scale it. Lighter vehicles. No range anxiety or long refuelling times. You can use it for either EVs or for internal combustion engines. Most importantly, not as dependent on foreign supply of rare earth metals.
>>
>>26290262
This. It's bad enough people have guns, but giving them hydrogen bomb ingredients is fucking stupid
>>
>>26290470
Hydrogen fill times aren't even that fast compared to gasoline or diesel. I used to work at a warehouse with hydrogen forklifts and they took longer to refill than getting a conventional battery swapped out. They also lasted half as long. What we need is better batteries, anything else is just a pipedream.

>>26290480
Using natural gas to make hydrogen is fucking retarded.

>No range anxiety
That Toyota does like 200 miles on a tank of hydrogen. Auto propane is impossible to find in North America. Hydrogen availability would be magnitudes worse.
>>
>>26290495
>Using natural gas to make hydrogen is fucking retarded.

How do you think hydrogen is produced commercially? Electrolysis only accounts for like 5% of the worlds H2 production. Majority is from natural gas refining. The point is that as electricity generation expands, you can shift production to electrolysis if you want to reduce CO2 generation even further.

>That Toyota does like 200 miles on a tank of hydrogen.

Retarded t*sla bagholder detected.

>The record-making attempt took place over two days on Aug. 23 and 24 this year with professional hypermiler Wayne Gerdes behind the wheel and Bob Winger as his co-pilot. After a 5-minute fill-up, the 2021 Mirai's tank was sealed and certified by Guinness World Records officials before the team departed the Toyota Technical Center in Gardena, California. The Mirai traveled to San Ysidro, then Santa Barbara, then continued along the Pacific Coast Highway through Santa Monica and Malibu before returning to Gardena. The team arrived back at TTC with 473 miles logged by GPS.

>On Day 2, the team resumed their driving, logging 372 more miles on a local loop before coasting back to TTC with a grand total of 845 miles driven. Guinness officials then confirmed that the FCEV's tank seal had not been tampered with and began the process of certifying the record attempt.

>845 miles
>>
>>26290495
>they took longer to refill than getting a conventional battery swapped out
what about the direct, realistic comparison between refilling hydrogen and recharging the battery in place? batteries don't get swapped in BEVs, they get recharged
>>
File: Toyota_Muda_principle.png (272 KB, 722x621)
272 KB
272 KB PNG
>>26290252
>Toyota invested billions
You could buy a Toyota Mirai, with no way to refuel outside of piggybacking off the few industries that make/consume hydrogen.
Or you could have bought a Tesla, which spent money on a Supercharger network.
Both of these happened contemporary with each other.

Toyota did not invest billions, they made a car to generate a few PR slides, praying somebody else would take the capital costs of the initial investments needed to make the platform viable.
>>
>>26290509
How do you think the hydrogen gets refined from natural gas? Pixie dust? Unicorn farts? That takes a fuckload of energy which most places don't have. Especially the people who buy their shit from you know who.

420 miles from a tank is pretty fucking pathetic especially when you have to hypermile to do it. Any modern econobox will do that on a tank at 90+mph. Diesel VW's could do 1000 miles per tank like 20 years ago and didn't need a 10,000psi bomb to do it. Also doesn't that Toyota still have a fairly big battery pack? Lets see a pure hydrogen, battery less vehicle do that.

>>26290511
Modern charge times are so bad that swappable packs almost make sense for roadgoing vehicles. Hydrogen is just a bandaid solution.
>>
>>26290549
>Modern charge times are so bad that swappable packs almost make sense for roadgoing vehicles
meaning they still don't make sense
>Hydrogen is just a bandaid solution
private, consumer-grade internal combustion doesn't even require a solution, as it isn't a problem. industrial production requires a solution
>>
>>26290559
Neither EV's or hydrogen vehicles make sense at this point in time.
>>
>>26290562
*for you
>>
>>26290591
For anybody who values their freedom*. "sorry anon you don't get to charge your EV because we need the power to make some hydrogen".
>>
File: cobalt mine.jpg (3.85 MB, 3354x2236)
3.85 MB
3.85 MB JPG
>>26290549
>That takes a fuckload of energy which most places don't have.

No fucking shit. Power generation needs to be massively expanded whether the industry shifts to BEVs or FCEVs. It's completely unavoidable and isn't some kind of argument against hydrogen.

>420 miles from a tank is pretty fucking pathetic especially when you have to hypermile to do it.

No, you can hypermile a Mirai to 800+ mi. Read again. Furthermore you can extend the range on a FCEV more easily than a BEV since fuel cells aren't literal boat anchors like batteries. FCEVs can use tiny 1-2 kWh shit batteries because all they are is a way to smooth low speed power delivery, and recover energy from regenerative braking.

Don't worry though, BEVs will get forced through by the globos and regular people can get taxed out of car ownership paying the billions that will be needed to continually repair road infrastructure as average curb weight balloons (see: 9500lb Hummer EV), then we can pay trillions more to fight a bunch of wars over cobalt and lithium mines in the third world.
>>
I got a hydrogen car.
It’s pretty neat.
The demand is there in the community.
It’s just that there’s not enough fuel stations :(

I do see hydrogen as a decent alternative.
>>
>>26290325
>Dude just like, pull electricity out of your ass.
lmao.
Btw the way you transfer electrical energy from one area to another are these thing called “power lines”, not hydrogen transmutation.
Rofl.
>>
>>26290594
Being chained to gas stations and whatever price they feel like setting doesn't sound very free.
>>
>>26290254
I don't know why you're telling me this.
>>
>>26290228
In a sane world they'd make it from seawater with nuclear power.
>>
>>26290470
The point is hydrogen cars don't take down Japan's power grid.
>>
>>26290254
>The hydrogen would have to be produced locally because you can't transport it long distances.
you can transport hydrogen like LNG, japan gets its hydrogen from Australia
>>
>>26290534
Kinda sad desu. It would have been cool to live in a future where gas stations also sold hydrogen, and EV and hydrogen market share is swapped around.
>>
>>26290223
>for the hydrogen to form with the oxygen
whats with all the the's?
>>
File: images.png (8 KB, 234x215)
8 KB
8 KB PNG
Regardless of production and logics the fundamentals of hydrogen are shit. The Volumetric density of hydrogen is terrible both in gaseous and liquid phases. Enjoy requiring half of your car being a storage vessel.

Hydrogen as power storage make a whole lot of sense. Average joes vehicle, not so much.
>>
>>26290776
tell us more about it pl0x, like range, price per refuel, etc
also, what do you think about self producing hydrogen, if we take the compressing part of the equation away (relatively dangerous) I think it might be economically viable
>>
>>26290329
>Can't realistically transport hydrogen Yes you can, convert the hydrogen into liquid ammonia (a much safer and higher boiling point fluid) then convert it back to hydrogen when at its destination for relatively little energy input.

>>26290343
>They transport liquid hydrogen all the time
No they don't cryogenic hydrogen phase changes at -253C thus venting (loss of energy) is required or else poof
>>
>>26290898
Exchange 'sane' for 'ideal'. We already are struggling to put energy into electric cars never mind generating the proposterous amount of energy required for large scale electrolysis. I think the fewer nuclear power stations the better as they are run by retards.
See
>3 mile island
>Chernobyl
>Fukushima
>>
>>26290343
Was in the hydrogen industry some years ago, I dont have the numbers on hand but someone can Google them if they doubt what I say.
Hydrogen is light (good) but really bulky.
At the moment there are 2 methods to store and transport hydrogen.
No.1 is pressurized up to 600bars, which is ridiculously high. It is a pain in the ass to keep hydrogen in this state, since the small hydrogen molecule can pass through nearly any material. Also a large amount (I belive it was 15% or so) of the total stored energy is needed to even pressurize the gas. Also these hydrogen tanks are still bulky and take a lot of space (they should be great for short to mid ranged trucking and maybe shipping, but that's it)
No. 2 is liquid hydrogen. You cool it down to near absolute zero. Problem is waste now nearly half of the stored energy to liquefy it. With time the hydrogen will absorb heat and start to boil. The now gaseous hydrogen gets vented out of the tank, which is not so great if you want to park in a garage.
There are ideas to bind the hydrogen to other molecules like ammonia (NH3) but at this point you might just use carbonchains which in turn brings us back to conventional fuel.

There are some ideas to create a hydrogen paste, and I am hopeful, since I want to continue driving combustion cars.
>>
>>26290901
Not my problem slash dont care
>>
>>26291095
>convert the hydrogen into liquid ammonia (a much safer and higher boiling point fluid) then convert it back to hydrogen when at its destination for relatively little energy input.

>expending energy to convert hydrogen multiple times AND transport it

Mental gymnasics of hyrotards. Hyundai failed. Toyota failed. Many billions of dollars down the drain. Time to move on. No amount of government incentives will help if the free market decides.
>>
>>26290622
>you can extend the range on a FCEV more easily than a BEV since fuel cells aren't literal boat anchors like batteries
Except packaging 5.6kg of hydrogen (~187kWh, 480 Wh/mi, 390 mile range) into a 180 horsepower FCEV RWD Toyota Mirai results in a car that is about as heavy as a Tesla Model 3 Performance, and that BEV with its 75kWh battery (250 Wh/mi, 300 mile range) has 500 horsepower and AWD.
BEVs aren't being 'forced' by any secret cabal, they're just better for how people use their cars most of the time. Right now a 5 minute fill up on hydrogen every two weeks at $80 just isn't worth the price premium vs charging at home for $10, or occasionally spending $10 to put 100 miles of range in at a fast charger in 10 minutes.

Would being able to 'fill up' completely in 5 minutes be nice? Sure. But most people don't drive 600+ miles in a day that often, especially not without making at least one longer stop. Is the charging times at 250kW stations still not ideal if you need to add more than 100 miles of range? Yes, but its less common an issue than /o/ wants to pretend.
BEVs issues still largely stem just from lack of appropriate infrastructure, but they're way closer to solving those problems than FCEVs, and its more likely that batteries improve right now than hydrogen storage gets easier or becomes cost equivalent to driving a BEV.
>>
>>26291114
>here are some ideas to create a hydrogen paste
I can't see that being anything other than hydrocarbon fuel rebranded as hydrogen fuel
>>
>>26291272
what about the fact that batteries inherently get damaged when you keep them mostly full all the time and only ever charge them from 90% to 100%?
>>
>>26290509
Producing hydrogen from natural gas is retarded because you could simply use the natural gas to charge a battery instead
>>
>>26291289
>what about the fact that batteries inherently get damaged when you keep them mostly full all the time
That's really only an issue with NMC cells, and the increased energy density of NMC cells makes it pretty trivial for most people to keep their cars set to only charge up 60 to 80% for daily use.
LFP cells, which are now the most popular for BEVs, have no problems being charged to 100% all the time. Of course with the downside that the 100% is less ~68kWh vs 75kWh for about the same mass.
>>
>>26290223
There's still a lot of unknowns. European Union wants to push the tech, but there's not a leading way of using it yet. Like, there's new fuels being developed where hydrogen is separated by the car or these Toyota easily portable hydrogen bottles. It's widely known battery cars can't be the only solution looking forward, because they suck and people don't want them.
>>
>>26290470
the new porsche ev has solid state batteries and is a total game changer
>>
>>26291103
Stop being a faggot.
>3 mile island
oh noes a slight meltdown that was stopped and a small leak of radioactive material that all happened in an obsolete reactor design
>Chernobyl
ok, that was run by retards
>Fukushima
like that had anything to do with who was running it + 1 in a million event + massive overreaction to relatively small radiation leak
>>
>>26291114
>There are some ideas to create a hydrogen paste, and I am hopeful, since I want to continue driving combustion cars.
aren't most hydrogen cars working off fuel cells? they are electric cars.
>>
>>26291004
1 guy wiyth a pack of malbros and its over
>>
>>26291431
what do you think, that sailors do not smoke or something?
>>
>>26291423
Yes, the 'paste' or 'tape' concepts would still use fuel cells, they just make the storage and delivery of the hydrogen a bit easier. Their downside is they reduce the efficiency of the system, and make things more complex since the car would need to store the depleted tape or paste and then expel it to be 'recharged'.
With that issue Micro Flow Battery tech probably makes more sense.

Flow batteries have all the advantage hydrogen offers in terms of being able to store energy whenever it is available, and refill the full capacity extremely quickly.
But the charge / discharge is more efficient, and the storage is much less problematic. Still doesn't really make sense as a daily solution, but would potentially be an alternative on a track.
>>
>lets strap 3 hydrogen bombs filled to extreme pressures in a thing that frequently gets into crashes and see what happens
I mean, what's the worst that could happen?
>>
>>26291450
a friend of mine said this could be easily countered by placing an controlled exit valve in case of accident, he also said that compressed hydrogen isn't really a requirement
>>
>>26291453
>venting hydrogen after an accident
>when electrics could be sparking
what's the worst that could happen lol
>compressed hydrogen isn't really a requirement
if you want to go more than a few miles it is
those tanks are filled to 5,000-10,000 PSI.
>>
>>26291472
>after an accident
*during an accident
that's controlled evacuation of the tank to minimize consequences and avoid the explosion with a controlled evacuation
>more than a few miles
pretty sure you can go a good amount of miles without compression, obviously more with compression but without you take a really inconvenient step out of the equation
>>
File: Model-3.jpg (932 KB, 2560x1708)
932 KB
932 KB JPG
>>26290407
>They're pushing electric cause they know it's expensive, they know the majority can't afford it.
Aren't electric cars cheaper than hydrogen cars?

The base model 3 is like 45k without any tax incentives.
>>
>>26290223
Toyota has been working on it for almost 3 decades now.
Everyone else doesn't want another "muh reliable toyota" monopoly.
>>
>>26291489
Yes, and the rumor is that Toyota never rolled out the Mirai nation-wide is that they were taking a significant loss on every unit sold because of how expensive the rare metals needed for the fuel cell were.
Fuel cells have really only persisted in the popular imagination because they work like gas cars. You drive them to a hydrogen station, fill the tank up, and then drive for two weeks.
BEVs and PHEVs are different, require explanation and people are lazy. They want the thing that seems more familiar even if its worse.
>>
>>26290223
First we need excess energy from renewable to create hydrogen and then the filling stations will popup. My guess is 2030 we will see that happening.
Then with the gasoline ban, most people will have an EV charging at home and those without garage will buy fuel cell cars.
Sports cars will have ICE running on hydrogen and old models converted
>>
>>26291536
Gas isn't going to be banned. What's going to happen is that the Government subsidies for gas will be removed, and then extra fees will be added to clean up the carbon emissions that will make it cost about the same as synthetic gas.
Long term the running costs of buying synthetic gasoline will be more than converting a car to run on hydrogen, but most people won't care because they won't have to modify their cars, and the capacity of a fuel tank gives an ICE car more range than a hydrogen tank would manage.

People who don't have garages will buy super-efficient BEVs that sip power from reasonably sized 68kWh battery packs that give them 500+ miles of range and add decent range when they're left out in the sun. Slow charging times aren't a big deal if you only occasionally need to plug in to a charger when you're at the grocery store or somewhere else its convenient.
>>
>>26291549
>Gas isn't going to be banned.
it looks like that here in EU, 5 years tops, I'd say, they're low key b&'d now from rolling in major cities on x-y days
>>
>>26290223
Because fuel cell vehicles are retarded and just make electric even more inefficient. Thankfully Toyota and Yamaha are co-developing hydrogen internal combustion engines.
>>
>>26291861
Hydrogen ICE!
All the inefficiency of internal combustion!
All the range of a Nissan Leaf!
What's not to love?
>>
>>26291873
that's not what my homie the mechanic says, so #doubt
>>
>>26291850
Huge difference between cities placing restrictions on what commuters can daily drive into them with and claiming that sales of gasoline will be banned.
The EU is a bit ahead of the US in phasing out fossil fuel subsidies, but their phase out of fossil fuel cars is no more ambitious than the US laws put into place in a few US states restricting only sales of new pure gasoline powered cars starting in 2035.
>>
>>26291900
I can't see a 20~years future with gas cars 2bh, maybe as collectibles or for the ultra rich, idk
>>
File: Mirai hydrogen tanks.jpg (386 KB, 1440x960)
386 KB
386 KB JPG
>>26291877
Its like this anon. Hydrogen isn't a magic bullet to save ICE.

A kilogram of hydrogen stores about the same energy as a gallon of gasoline. 33.4 kWh vs 33.7 kWh.
But hydrogen can't be stored in a gas tank. It has to be stored in pressure vessels.
That's what those big yellow things are in the picture, and there's actually a third obscured behind the electric motor at the back.
Those tanks that take up all the space that in a gas car would be the transmission tunnel or an FR car, fuel tank, and rear-transmission or a MR car, all three combined store 5.6kg of hydrogen.
For an internal combustion powered vehicle 5.6 kg of hydrogen is maybe 180 miles of range.

But consider the packaging of an ICE car for a moment. Without seriously sacrificing practicality you're not going to get the 3 big tanks you need for 5.6kg into a car.
Say you come up with a cool design that puts a tiny 3 cylinder engine at the back giving you 2 of those 3 tanks for 3.7kg.
That's even less capacity, and it required serious compromises to the powertrain.

To fit more into a internal combustion car would require even more sacrifices. Its really only ever going to work for dedicated hydrogen ICE track toys or racing series.
>>
>>26291960
You're probably right. But I believe in hydrogen, not so much so in compressed hydrogen, since that specific layer adds a lot of fuckery to the equation. I hope that's the future, personally.
>>
>>26291873
On a hydrogen ICE you can refuel 6kg of Hydrogen in 5 minutes that gets you 300miles(480km) at 50mpg (5.6l/100km) (1gallon=1kg, 3,8l=1kg)... or 1.5x more using fuel cell. both ways without emitting CO2 and NOx
>>
>>26292003
thank god you're not emitting plant food
fuck the plants
>>
>>26292003
*4,6l/100km... not 5,6l/100km
for a big car or pickup the range would be probably 200miles(320km)
>>
>>26292003
Ok, but how are you going to get that 5.6 kg of hydrogen into your internal combustion engine car?
As I just pointed out, packaging issues for Hydrogen ICE are a serious problem, and 50mpge aka 675 Wh/mi is going to be pretty hard to reliably get out of a pure ICE car running on hydrogen.
Maybe if the car was a PHEV with a little < 1 liter pure range extender, but I don't think that's what you had in mind.
>>
>>26291103
Nuclear power has had the least deaths of any form of power generation. Coal has killed 820x more people than nuclear
>>
>>26290223
They say fuel cells are 20 years down the road. I've been hearing that for 20 years.
>>
>>26292031
Toyota Mirai has 5.6kg with 3 tanks and it's a refurbish Camry... so I guess the best place to put the tanks in a new design would be the same place as they put the batteries on EVs... multiple small tanks under the car
ICE would make some sense in sports car... maybe
>>
File: Mirai interior cutaway.jpg (403 KB, 1440x960)
403 KB
403 KB JPG
>>26292027
The Mirai is roughly the size of the 7 seat Tesla Model S, but is a 4 seater because of the hydrogen tanks. For a small car the packaging of the hydrogen tanks becomes even more of an issue.
A small really efficient ICE car with great packaging (like a rear-engineTwingo) is going to really struggle to pack in much more than 2kg (67kWh) of hydrogen storage.
Even 4.6l/100km aka 410 Wh/km aka 51mpge aka 660 Wh/mi is going struggle to give you 162km or 100 miles of range from that much hydrogen.
>>
>>26292031
6kg of hydrogen would add extra 264lbs (120kg) to the car weight... according the wiki on the mirai
>>
>>26292077
>multiple small tanks under the car
Then you start running into BEV-like problems where the Tesla Model 3 has a 480kg skateboard battery pack, but only 310kg of that is actual battery cell because it requires so much packaging.
More tanks, means more material to make the tanks, more weight for less hydrogen capacity.

If you want to make a hydrogen ICE track toy that only needs to seat 2 with no practicality to carry tires then that is definitely possible, but its going to cost you an arm and a leg. Track level fuel efficiency measured in the high single digits, with a fuel that costs $15 a gallon equivalent?
Sounds like a lot worse time than a Model 3.
>>
>>26292110
well... 4 small tanks vs 1 big use the same amount of carbon fiber according to Barlow's formula.
The Opel Vivaro-e hydrogen has tanks below the van
>>
File: 1645056321980.jpg (92 KB, 640x853)
92 KB
92 KB JPG
>>26292082
Fuck, that interior packaging/space looks like a nightmare. It's like they took the issues that the Volt had with interior space and turned it up to 11.
>>
>>26292135
Packaging is easier in a van because the height of the floor is higher, but that van still only packs in 4.4kg of hydrogen (147kWh) which WLTP is good for 400km aka 250 miles. Which knowing WLTP is probably optimistic even as an annual figure.
Although it does have one advantage over the Mirai which is it retains a larger 10kWh battery pack that's good for about 30 miles of battery electric range.
I think that style of vehicle where the fuel cell only needs to be used for days where the car drives further than a normal day is the only possible future for FCEV.
>>
>>26290223
The same can be said of electric cars.
Why havent they invested in charging infrastructure heavily?
>>
File: USA hydrogen stations.png (526 KB, 1750x1093)
526 KB
526 KB PNG
>>26292343
For comparison this is the map of hydrogen stations.
>>
File: USA DC fast chargers.png (894 KB, 1750x1093)
894 KB
894 KB PNG
>>26292343
This is the map of DC fast charging stations.

Investment in fast charging has been somewhat complicated by the two competing standards NACS and CCS.
But it seems like software compatibility and adapters for them are on the way.

More businesses will invest in chargers if they know all cars can use them.
>>
>>26290562
why the fuck cant they just make evs like trolleybuses
>>
>>26291873
>inefficiency of internal combustion
you would rather drive 50hp cockroach toy cars with an electric engine and call that efficient?
>>
>>26292003
You need way too much space in order to hold enough compressed hydrogen to travel 300 miles with a hydrogen combustion engine. You need 105 gallons of hydrogen to travel 300 miles.
>>
>>26292371
Its only practical to do that in cities, and even short-range BEVs have been handling that kind of duty cycle for a decade.

There's been some talk of doing that kind of system for trucks on some stretches of interstate, particularly in the mountains but that's as more about allowing them to brake with electric motors and have somewhere to offload the electricity generated as it is about running trucks.
That's also usually talked about as being an inductive system built into the road in a few stretches rather than a overhead system covering the whole interstate system.
>>
>>26292597
yeah... 6kg of hydrogen on a 450bhp V8 at 19mpg will give 115 miles of range.
racing probably 40 miles
>>
>>26292597
I think that's somewhat pessimistic. Mirai is 5.6 kg for 30 gallons of hydrogen storage. So 105 gallons assuming the storage per volume is mantained would be 19.6kg.
19.6kg of hydrogen is 655kWh of stored energy. At 1350 Wh/mi (25mpge US) that is ~485 miles.

Of course if range was your goal you'd be much better off keeping the Mirai's powertrain in the mix.
655kWh at 480 Wh/mi is 1300+ miles.

Which may just bump the Mirai to the top of the EV cannonball charts if you could convert it into a driving hydrogen tank, get a full load of hydrogen in New York, and secure a hydrogen fuel stop somewhere in Oklahoma.
>>
>>26292597
>You need 105 gallons of hydrogen to travel 300 miles.
Thats just a volume retard, you realize that hydrogen, a gas, is held under pressure and the volume of the canister says little about how much hydrogen is stored in it? It could be 100 gallons at 2000psi, 3000psi, what?
>>
>>26290223
Hydrogen is a meme, helium is too rare. Whatever the third element is will probably be the victor.
>>
>>26292371
Do you know how many billions of feet of cable you would need to do that?
>>
>>26292936
Helium works as an alternative to hydrogen for airships, where its desirable because it doesn't explode and kill everywhere.
However for that same reason it doesn't work as a fuel for internal combustion engines, or fuel cells.

So unless we get miniature fusion reactors to power our cars, helium is out as a fuel source.
>>
File: Fukushima-2.jpg (95 KB, 950x713)
95 KB
95 KB JPG
>>26291399
>Fukushima "relatively small radiation leak"
Relative to what? A dirty bomb?
4 meltdowns, with reactors 2 & 4 exploding containing 40 years of spent fuel located at the top of the building - not anymore.we won't know the full extent of the damage for hundreds of years, massive amounts of water containing radioactive particles released into the sea.
They built poor sea defences and back up generators underground in a place renowned for earthquakes.
>>
>>26291481
>Good amount of miles without compressed hydrogen
No, H2 at 700bar has half the energy per litre than what petrol has and it's a linear relationship so 350bar will have a quarter etc etc
>>
File: Pre_TESLA_BEV_.jpg (50 KB, 500x398)
50 KB
50 KB JPG
>>26290407
>>26291489
>>26291506
As always needs to be stated
Back in the day you could fork out dough for a Toyota Mirai, or a Tesla S, both which where basically in the same price tier. They where contemporary vehicles of each other, in the same price class.

Tesla ponied up and built a Supercharger network before EV charging where a real thing. Toyota only sold a car, which was also smaller, slower with very average driving capabilities.

Could Hydrogen work?
Who cares, Toyota did not put the money where their PR slides was, and as a results its just something people talk about instead of putting it on a golden plate of turd so the failure of investment do not get memory holed.
>>
File: james-may-tesla-model-s.jpg (313 KB, 1596x875)
313 KB
313 KB JPG
>>26293358
Yeah, the new generation Mirai is both better and cheaper than the old Mirai for the money, but its still a total white elephant. Its an electric car that you can't charge at home, and a car that can fill up at fuel stations in 5 minutes, but only at a very limited number of locations.
If Toyota put a 10 or 20kWh battery in it that could be charged up for daily use that would be something, but with how terrible the packaging of the car is, where would they put it?

Even James May had to give up on the one that he bought because it just wasn't useful for anything, and he was one of the biggest proponents of hydrogen cars.
Last I knew he still had the Tesla Model S.
>>
>>26291960
>Hydrogen isn't a magic bullet to save ICE.

FCEVs are just objectively superior to hydrogen ICE, but you could have hydrogen ICE enthusiast cars that have all the advantages of ICE in terms of lighter weight, better sound and a traditional driving experience. No need to wait for charging or having to worry about batteries overheating. There would have to be concessions to pack the hydrogen tanks in there, but you could do it. A hydrogen sports car would probably end up looking like pic related with the entire ass end filled with H2. FCEV vs. hydrogen ICE isn't a one vs. the other competition since they use the same infrastructure, and if there were really demand for hydrogen ICE there wouldn't be any reason to stop it.

On the other hand, once the technology scales, hydrogen ICE could actually end up being the "cheap" option since it doesn't require platinum for catalysts.

Either way, finding space for more tanks is a vastly simpler problem to solve than kWh/kg of batteries or CO2 recapture (or expanding hydrogen fuelling networks). If manufacturers want to make an FCEV cuckover with 1000mi+ range, it wouldn't be hard to do, just like it's not hard to make a gas or diesel that can do it. VW even stated they're working on an FCEV with 1200mi range.

As always, advantage of hydrogen is that we won't be a slave to China. H2 can be produced completely domestically. We have all the resources needed to build more nuclear power, and hydrogen is the most plentiful element in the universe.
>>
>>26292343
Imagine every gas station you currently see on the road right now, turned into the equivalent of a small thermoberic bomb.
Imagine trying to get zoning rights for that.
That’s why there are so few.

>>26292352
They can only put them in Cali because the same overlords get elected to the State government anyways so they’ll just start a state program to put a bombs right next to your grocery store, and their polling numbers won’t even flinch.
It’s not like Cali-sheep know about the danger they’re in anyways.
>>
>>26294236
wow that bomb was so powerful that the entire structure was left intact
>>
>>26294192
and also... under high load ICE gets more energy efficient than FCEV... so it could make some sense for racing (light engine, loud noise, high power)
>>
File: hoodniggashit.jpg (956 KB, 4032x3024)
956 KB
956 KB JPG
>>26293385
>tri-color first gen 900RR, probably all original
Okay, based.
>>
>>26294259
Yes I’m sure the bits of it flung out on the road are of no concern.
>>
>>26294287
ten second cleanup
>>
>>26294192
It just seems to me if you want to have a retro-ICE racing series for cars that can't compete otherwise, you're going to want to keep those cars in their original state, not do an expensive conversion to run on hydrogen and figure out how to shoehorn in big hydrogen tanks.
Synthetic fuel made from green hydrogen and atmospheric carbon is going to be more expensive than hydrogen (which is about $15 a kg right now), but the price difference isn't likely to be enough to matter for the people participating in those kind of events.

If you're going to make a hydrogen race car, FCEV is the way to go. Either as a purpose-built car like the upcoming LeMans FCEV prototype class, or in the form of a bolt-in long range endurance solution for battery electric cars.
I can definitely see tracks installing hydrogen fueling infrastructure, because in racing the faster refueling time is a massive benefit, but I can't see it catching on for use on the road.

In the real world the advantage of a 5 minute refill just isn't worth the price premium vs 250kW fast charging for 10 minutes to top up, or the convenience of 150kW fast charging while taking a break or doing your grocery shopping.
>>
>>26294559
I'd like to see EV vs FCEV vs ICE in a track limited to the same HP and range.
ICE would probably be the lighter of them all
Or better.. a ICE with batteries for regen/boost and e-turbo
>>
>>26294682
>I'd like to see EV vs FCEV vs ICE in a track limited to the same HP and range.
>ICE would probably be the lighter of them all
Would really depend on what the event duration and the horsepower limit was.
Its pretty easy to give very lightweight BEVs godlike power in a size that really wouldn't be possible with internal combustion. Which is why BEVs dominate no-holds-barred short form events like hill climbs.

But if you wanted an endurance race with a really restricted max power, that favors internal combustion right now since while power is easy for a BEV more stored energy means a lot more weight. The only way to go for that with a BEV would be to design something like the Aptera. Or to spend the premium for prototype solid state cells.
But even there if its long enough to need fuel stops BEVs are out and it would have to be FCEV vs ICE unless battery swapping was allowed.

>Or better.. a ICE with batteries for regen/boost and e-turbo
That's not pure ICE then. If that kind of mixed class is allowed then you don't have ICE vs EV anymore. Everyone is just going to make PHEVs.
>>
>>26294739
Maybe limit to 400KW like GT3
Porsche Mission R vs Porsche 911 GT3
I bet they would have similar weight and range for 30min of racing
>>
>>26294887
Possibly, but that might require the next-generation batteries Porsche has teased for their upcoming BEVs.
Other than the 718 which I think is using current generation batteries so they can get it out sooner rather than later.
>>
>>26294964
>company who don't produce batteries, and have to buy fresh of R&D shelves
>next-generation batteries
Nothingburger.
Tesla at the least had actual 4680 batteries to showcase in 2020 and started ramping up production back then, which is by this point 3 years ago. And today you can get a car with 4680 batteries if you buy the correct model.

Porsche? 2024? 2030? WOW
Color me fucking amazed.



[Advertise on 4chan]

Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.